Chuck Todd on The Media's Failure with Donald Trump

Welcome to Positive America. I'm Dan Feifer. Politics and media are inextricably entwined. The politicians who succeed are usually the ones who best understand how the media is changing. If you want to understand what's happening in politics and where it's going, you must understand the media environment. That's why I'm talking to veteran journalist Chuck Todd, the former host of Meet the Press For our Sunday show this week. Chuck left NBC earlier this year to explore the greener pastures of independent journalism, to pursue a new model for saving local news, and to host his podcast, The Chuck

Todd. So, he's got a foot in both camps, old media and new media. Chuck is also one of the political press's biggest defenders and detractors when appropriate. Chuck is a giant political junkie who knows everything that's happening in every Race at every level. Today, we're going to discuss the changing media environment, how the press is covering Trump, and whether Democrats have figured out how to communicate in this new era. Chuck Todd, welcome to the show. Dan Fifer, it's good to see. I think I was your one of your guests in the first month of your

launch, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, you were. You were. It was a uh a very highly listened to and quite controversial episode if I Remember correctly. I don't know. Every episode you guys do is controversial to somebody. You know the deal the the beauty of social media is if you want to be controversial, somebody will help you be controversial. Yes, that is true. That is true. That that is what TwitterX has done for us. Um as you were the host of Meet the Press, I'm going to do what Chuck Todd would do is I'm going

to start with the news of the week here. U we are Recording this on Donald Trump's 101st day in office. We are coming at to the close of a series of media retrospectives looking at his 100 days in the White House. There are two themes that run through this. One is that it is he has the lowest poll numbers of almost any president at this 100th day and is in a big political mess. And the second one is that he is the most consequential president at this mark in his presidency. What do you make of

those Two assessments? By the way, my I I love the word consequential. how often I now hear this word consequential. Um, okay. Where else are you hearing it? Well, because Mitch McConnell defenders won't say he was a great senator. They'll say he's one of the most consequential senators. The point is the word is such a beautiful word because you don't it's a way to um impart importance without necessarily saying they were good or bad. Well, They're consequential. Okay. Right. You know, the point is is that it really is such an interesting subjective word and I

kind of look at it as a bit of a weasel word, right? But personally, because I think the word and I get it, right? Because he is consequential. Sure. Um, you know, and so's, you know, so's a a wild animal in my yard. Consequential in the moment, right? That's going rabid on us, right? You're like, "Yeah, it's consequential in the Moment." Anyway, no, you I don't know if you if you get the point I'm trying to say, but I just I do. I do. It's a way to say that he matters without saying that he

is bad or good. Right? George W. Bush I used to say really consequential president. Um you know where you know because at the end of the day at the time you were like well doesn't look like Iraq's going to age well. We'll see. And it hasn't. And it hasn't. And in fact the legacy has somehow led the To the Republican party to no longer even believe in half the policies they used to believe in the Bush era. No, I look at the, you know, the poll that I sort of uh been obsessed over of all

the polling, even though they've all been very similar, has been Pew's because Pew had a large enough sample to to have some interesting little they were able to f to I think correctly find the following, right? And which you see tidbits up there, which is Uh people are don't like the execution of Donald Trump, but that they have yet they're not yet sour on his goals, right? And I think the Pew pole did the best job of of of at least showing that where you know what he's trying to do there's still support for out

there. How his execution though is something that that the that voters don't like at all. And then you see that when you see oh the Democrats are not it's not a seessaw, right? Trump goes down, Democrats go up. You're not seeing that yet, right? The nothing whatever the Democrats haven't penetrated yet. You know, the best way you could say it is Democratic messaging has yet to penetrate or they're just not focused on it or there is no unified Democratic message, which is probably closer to being the correct answer. And then the other thing that I

found interesting in the Pew poll is they did this subset they did this subset of non- Voters. And what was interesting because this to me tells me about the media climate. So at the start of his presidency in Pew, non voters from 2024 approved uh gave him a 44% job approval. So skeptical but 44. Now he had collapsed down to 31 job approval among people that didn't vote. Um what that tells me because that's non- voters are usually lower information voters and what I mean by that is they're just not paying attention. Doesn't mean they're

Dumb. These are people that are busy or just aren't aren't as engaged. But what they're getting they don't like. Right? So, it does tell me that it's all bad for Trump right now, right? His media environment. I mean, Dave Porto is out there complaining about him, right? He doesn't even have a unified his the the right-wing machine is not even unified in celebrating his first 100 days. So, I just think this has been political malpractice uh how they've handled this First 100 days because there were ways to make this better and they have just I

mean, can you imagine if you didn't have George W. Bush to blame for the economy after a hund after the 100 days uh taking over uh in the Obama presidency. And Donald Trump said, "Yeah, I'm going to make sure everybody knows this is my economy now." Right? Like you're like, "Okay, brother. It's all yours. You don't get to blame Biden anymore because you have actually impacted the direction Of this economy and every voter now knows it." I mean, which is this is the blame buying thing is interesting because Trump did today on Wednesday. the truth

that this was Biden's stock markets, the overhang of Biden's economy and all. Dan, I'm old enough to remember when the surge in the stock market during the transition was supposed to be Donald Trump's stock market surge. So, I'm very confused. Yes. I mean, he took credit for stock market surges when Biden was president based on what he said to be polling that suggested he would win. So, right, no, he's not consistent on this. Yeah, I know. We're shocked that Donald Trump isn't consistent. The blaming Biden thing is interesting because as you point out it was

for most of Obama's first term voters in polling blamed Bush as much or more than Obama for the state of the economy. Now there was a certain set of facts there which was the economy Collapsed before Obama was president. No, I mean the facts were on his side, but I really believe that Trump could have convinced many people that, hey, this inflate, you know, we're still recovering from Biden's inflationary mess and all this stuff. And nope, not anymore. Yeah, he there was there was a failure to manage expectations for sure. Like there's a way in

which he could have said this is going to take, you know, this is like Obama used to say all The time, we didn't get in this mess overnight. We're not going to get out overnight. Um, and it's going to take time. But he but launching the tariffs was the thing that I mean when you look is there's a world where he could have just not decided to blow up the economy himself. Right? That's the thing, right? It wasn't it's not like he rhetorically messed it up. He substantively messed it up. Correct. That his chief architect,

right, of this Tariff regime, Orin Cass, wrote this op-ed in the New York Times that laid out a a much more reasonable way to have tried to execute this, which is essentially you you you put out what you're going to do, but you give everybody six months. you actually don't do anything until October, until the fall, and you give yourself time for both business to prepare itself and perhaps trade deals to take place. But that's not the Donald Trump way. And you Know, if you actually are an advocate of this policy, you should be really

angry with Donald Trump because he he may tarnish the whole idea for decades. Yeah. As we're recording this, the Republican Senate may pass a resolution of disapproval on the Trump tariffs. So, it's all going to depend on if enough senators show up to vote. I didn't expect this to happen until the spring of next year because you think they'd be separating for the election. I do. You Know, my three f you know, my three early primary guys that I'm obsessed with are Tillis, Cassidy, and Cornin, right? None of the three are MAGA Republicans. All three

are going to face primary challenges in Senate races. And the right the assumption right now is they're going to lose their primaries. You can't beat MAGA in a primary. I think the the evidence so far has been true, but I'm very curious if one year from now, is it an asset for Tom Tillis That he's not MAGA? Is it an asset for John Cornin that he's not MAGA in a Republican primary? I'm skeptical, but now I'm curious to watch to see if it if voters change. I mean, that's interesting because it's still in a Republican

primary. You're talking about the highest turnout. I know Republican voters. And you there's there's one exception and this may this could work for Cornin perhaps, I guess. So there's the one exception of someone who beat Mac in a primary is Brian Kemp, the governor of Georgia. Mhm. But he obviously has well high approval and 100% name ID and he was running against a terrible candidate. And governors, you want to know the single toughest thing to do is stop a governor from winning re-election. It's it is it is probably harder than anything. I mean, look at

it's one of these things if you're a true junkie listening to Dan and I here, go look at the history. uh governors are Harder to prevent from their first re-election than than probably any other elected official there is out there. You know, as you as you pointed out, the we have not had a seesaw effect as Trump has gone down. Democrats have not gone up. Um our approved our party's approval rating is still at this at its lowest level. Um although we have there have been gains for the Democrats in the generic ballot. Um up

three I think in the in the most recent average I saw. Um Which is not great, but it is an improvement of where we were six months ago. Um, what do you make of the sort of internal debate within the Democratic party about whether we, you know, the James Carville play dead, the sort of David Shore focus on the economy and tariffs only, the sort of Chuck Schumer don't be in charge of the shutdown, the go after them on everything or the Bernie Sanders AOC fight the oligarchy. Just what's your sort of take on um

what Democrats are doing and perhaps if you have thoughts on what they should be doing. Well, I I can I quote Barack Obama the don't do stupid Yeah. You know idea too which is I think that's the position I'd be in this early which is just don't do stupid right? Don't get out of your way. It's a little bit of Carville a little bit like but but I look at it this way. I think a good loud messy debate would be healthy For the party. Now, you and I are you and I are old enough

to go back to the I'm obsessed with the 88 to92 experience, right? Which was, you know, 88 was was was one of those moments where Democrats just couldn't believe they got crushed. It was one thing to lose, but they got crushed and it became this massive external fight, right? And so, you had Bill Clinton essentially deciding to start almost an alternative party in the DLC at the Time. um he picked a fight with the Jesse Jackson wing of the party purposely, right, to in many ways to to differentiate himself. Um and there was a knockdown

dragout fight at times. Ron Brown was the DNC chair. And I remember it's so funny to see how close Ron Brown and Bill Clinton came um once he won the presidency. But there was a time when Ron Brown was DNC chair where they saw Bill Clinton and the DLC as as an Archeneemy, right? As trying to upend what they were doing. But what's interesting about that experience and I would argue also the experience you had in ' 05, 06 and 07 which was also a similar period of of democratic introspection that I would argue all

of this is what you as every what everybody should strike their own path to see what's working. This is a spaghetti at the wall moment. What's good for AOC may not be good for Wes Moore, but what's Good for Wes Moore may not be good for what's Pete Buddhajit. So, and at this point, I think the party is searching for a a way. I think party leaders ought to be trying different things. I think the two people with the hardest job are Jeff and Schumer, right? Because they have the titles. So, there's this expectation that

they should be the leader, but they what are they leading, right? It it it's really hard. So, I'm empathetic that it's hard for them to Play leader, but right now they're the leader because there's nobody else. So, you know, Schumer could be a better communicator. I don't know how Schumer became a bad communicator. He used to be a great communicator and I don't know. Yeah, it it's fair. I mean, and it may be that he was a good communicator in in the previous way that that that communicating took place. He has really struggled because I

think he made the right decision. I mean, I don't think The government's open right now, by the way, if they shut I'm convinced that Trump would have just used selectively open certain parts of government. there wouldn't have been, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm I'm a cynic on that one. I I do think that there was um that this might you might have been handing them an opportunity, not a not a potential loss. So, I think his tactic was correct, but how he messaged it, right, absolutely made it seem worse. So, I I can't sit Here

and say any one idea is a bad idea and how everybody's doing because I kind of think this is a I think there needs to be a thousand flowers here and let's see which ones bloom. I would say for just stay for the record here that while I am quite old, I was in middle school and early high school during the 1988 to 199. Am I that much older than you? I feel like you're No offense, Dan. I apologize your age then. You have an old soul. Fair enough. I'm an old soul. Exactly. Um, but

I do know that period and what is interesting about that is the idea behind the DLC and Bill Clinton was that the party had gone too far left. We had defined ourselves out of the mainstream with the American people and we had to change in order to win election. One big issue, law and order and welfare and right it it was government support, but it was law and order, right? And if you think about it, think about the two things Bill Clinton Had to do in his 92 campaign, right? He had to a a a

mentally questionable person was put to death. He needed to show he was pro-death penalty. And you know, it's still a it is still a controversial decision to some people that he made, but not to the voters, right? He was trying to virtue signal, hey, I'm a different type of Democrat. I'm not afraid of the death penalty. I'm not afraid of using these things. And then, Of course, this the so-called sister soldier moment where he sort of had this cultural push back, but You know, that that moment to me is I wonder if somebody's going to

try a Bill Clinton playbook, right? I think Gavin Newsome is kind of trying it right now, right? Which is which is try really hard to almost pick a fight to show you're not a conventional progressive Democrat, at least on cultural issues. I don't know if that's Going to be effective this time, but I do expect to see a few candidates try it or a few Democrats try it. I think that there's a there's a flaw in that thinking in my view which is in 1988 the vector of American politics was left right and in 2025

it's inside outside and so I don't just don't think the voters and Trump is a perfect example of this right he is a very heterodoxical politician at least in the Way view voters view him right they think he is more liberal on social issues than he actually is because he's a billionaire from New right? He talks about protecting social security and Medicare. Ran to the left on social security and Medicare in the Republican primary and has like these elements of populism to him, but then his far right on a whole bunch of other things like

immigration. And I just don't know that people think will think about if that is Newsome's plan and I don't know that it is. I think that's a mistake. Well, it's interesting. And so I let me throw something else at you. I have the the other my main thesis about 2728 is that the Democratic primary electorate is going to prioritize two things. new and electable. Now, the problem with electability is how subjective it is, right? You know, it that that is sometimes in the eye of the holder, but some of that can bear out in Polling

and some of that. And if I were to new and electable is arguably how Barack Obama won, right? He made the case, hey, I'm new and let me prove to you that I'm electable. And if I recall, the '06 cycle was actually the cycle that proved he was electable because Barack Obama was invited to every red state Democratic. I think you were working Tim Johnson, right? Uh I was I was Ev I was Evan B in the '06 cycle. We were Evan B. You were Tim Johnson in ' 02, right? Okay. But if I recall,

um there were a lot of red state Democrats that invited Barack Obama to campaign form in '06. Not many who invited Hillary Clinton, right? And that was sort of the first piece, you know. So there he was able to create this case that hey I can go anywhere around the country. Oh and oh by the way I'm also new. Right. So and the reason I I assume it's new and electable is I think there'll be a desperation to win. Right. Trump just exhausts everybody just like we saw with Biden with the with the 2020 race

and what happened there. And the Democratic party always wants new. Right. That has been the hallmark of when when there's not an incumbent involved. You know, I I I've always believed the rise of Bernie Sanders had nothing to do with his politics and his ideology and everything to do with Hillary Clinton was the known candidate. Who's the who's the new All right, we'll Try that. You know, it it I think I think there were a lot of people who could have been the alternative to Hillary had they run. They just most people just didn't run

and he was he was really the only viable alternative that was out there. So I do think new will be the will will will matter to you know and that and what I mean by that is I don't think there's a name you and I will discuss today That might be that candidate right like I you know think about Pete Budajage Pete Budajage in 2017 who had him in the finals for the presidential nomination in 2020 right that you you know so I I I look around maybe it's Abigail Spanberger right maybe it's somebody we

haven't thought of a state senator that goes viral and pulls an upset in Kansas or Nebraska or Iowa, right? That's to me just as viable as Cy Booker figuring out a way to win the nomination. I think um I would put a maybe this goes along with new, but I think the Democratic activists and donors are going to put a lot of stock in the communications talent. Yes. Like can you get attention? And I think one of the lessons of the like the people will take from the Biden presidency and maybe and probably unfairly so

of Klay Harris's 106 or whatever it was days is that we got out we got outcommunicated and we need someone who can go on the we will we'll Talk about someone who can go on Joe Rogan till the end of time. But it's something bigger than that, right? It's somebody who can go to the Chuck podcast. That's the someone who can go on the Chuck podcast. That's that's where the real metal is made. No, but actually what it really is is can you go everywhere, not just specific places, right? Like, you know, I've always thought

that that was Donald Trump's secret sauce. He said no to nobody. And It was I mean, it's it helped Obama. Obama was on Monday Night Football. Obama was would say no to nobody, right? Like that that, you know, I used to think it was Chris Christiey's, you know, special powers until very he he had his own, you know, he he be, you know, he cost himself, but that used to be an advantage for him is he was willing to go anywhere. More of my conversation with Chuck Todd when we come back. But first, if you

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a lot of people. So she Whitmer versus Pritsker, right? Like two opposite ways to go. Yes. Right. like Pritker or Chris Murphy or anyone else who was all fullbore anti-Trump all the time. Whitmer was in the White House last month sort of ended up in an unfortunate situation where she unbeknownst to herself ended up in a uh Executive order signing targeting individuals for criminal prosecution was caught by the New York Times hiding her face with binders and but then she was there to talk about a uh an important project for Michigan. That project was announced

this week. She was there. She didn't plan to speak at the Trump rally, but Trump did invite her on stage, and she went up on stage and didn't um praise Trump, but was grateful for the uh but seems somewhat she wasn't rude to Him, for sure. What do you make of her approach, presuming, as I do, that she plans to run for president when her term as governor is up? Well, let me throw the question back at you. I I was I was at dinner with a very prominent Democratic donor who then held very prominent

ambassadorships in the last two Democratic administrations which I know actually doesn't give you a lot of clues because that's actually still a pretty reasonably long list but you know That yeah I won't even if I have a guess I won't I won't make it don't say it because I don't want to do that but it but it's the type of person that's why I'm telling you this you know who these this is I always say these these people are the conventional wisdom and I don't say that disparaging ly like you know they're moving with where

and this person said to me oh that photo op that she's dead she's never living that down it's over and I'm like really I thought That was a little extreme right that that it was over I will say this I'm a believer that you got to lean in I I I I think you're you're building your presidential campaign you should do it in the same way that good football teams build their build use the draft which is you double down on strength don't try to be something you're not okay. Don't try to don't try to

be something that your team's not built for. Don't try to be a politician that's off the brand, right? So, her brand is what that she is willing to go, you know, talk to um red voters and blue voters. So, her brand is the m the swing state person, the all of that. So, the problem is she got caught apologizing essentially for being with Trump, right? the first the folder is kind of a version of a I didn't mean I didn't I I'm trying to reach out but oh I'm embarrassed there or even at the National

Guard ceremony when her first instinct was I wasn't planning on Speaking I thought that was a moment of weakness which is no you got to be comfortable in your own skin this is your strength right if she's in there it's because she can win right it's because she can govern in a sort of from the middle out saying she's a centrist but that that's so I think that the I tactically I think what she's done is right. Her execution though, right? You look at it her individual performance, it's like Chuck Schumer, he made the Right

decision, but you you stepped on yourself, but how because of how poorly you communicated, you know, you kind of communicated a flip-flop there. No, we're going to force a shutdown. Oh, no, we're not. That's that's a terrible idea. You know, here's Whitmer. If you're trying to show you're willing to reach across the aisle and you're going to work with whoever you got to work with, then don't act like you're embarrassed when you get caught doing It, right? So, I don't know. You know, you're you I think you you you're pretty good at identifying problems like

that. Do you think that's going to be something that lingers for her that it it becomes it's sort of like it sits in that you're like, well, you you did the right thing, but why are you embarrassed about it? Right. I think she has plenty of time to fix it. It is gonna that picture will linger with the sort of people you had dinner with the people Who those donors right and I wondered does that well donors and the kind of people that you're seeking endorsements from in wherever the primary is going to be this

time South Carolina I guess and Nevada yeah do we know the primary calendar we do not we do not it does not exist because it was a one-year deal to where's JB Pritsker so he goes to New Hampshire because he didn't know where else to go could did he yeah I mean that's what the it's not on the list but It's what the press uh thinks of. I think people assume it will not be Iowa. So, it's you might as well go to New Hampshire. And does Vegas still like Yes, it'll be very important, but

nobody there's it's so hard to get an event in Vegas because people they're not it's not a it's not a political community that's used to it yet, right? You know, there's an established, right? You know, oh, the five people, hey, I need to get an audience of 50 in a New Hampshire Event, right? Oh, yeah. I can I got so and so on and speed dial and this person will do it. I go to the Puritan back room and I get 50 people from Manchester to do it and we are good to go. Yeah, that's

what that's why you do it. Um so here the point on Whitmer is I think that the there's plenty of time to fix this. I agree with you that the is like the question it will raise for people if she can't prove otherwise over the coming period of time and she'll have Plenty of time to do it is political instincts. The way that she played it did not work for her the way it should have. Like you either got to double down on as you said lean into it, find a moment in the oval. Le

I have no problem. Like if you want to work with the Trump administration, try to get something for your state. Like that is still your job. I get that. That is that's why you were elected. And by the way, my guess is she promised she'd do That in her campaigns. Right. So it's been a big thing she's been working on from the very beginning. That's right. So she should deliver that. And I'm very sympathetic to where the situation Nuome was in after the fires where you have this capricious vengeful president who might deny life-saving aid

to your state. So you have to like do that dance. I get that. I think once you you find yourself even accidentally in the Oval Office while the president is Targeting two individuals for criminal prosecution because they spoke out against him. Some people say he should have yelled in that moment. But then you got to go to the mics afterwards and condemn that even if it puts at risk the other project. Like there's there's a nimleness I think that you remember a moment during your your years where a candidate, you know, got caught in something

and it's like, "Oh, boy. Why don't you go clean it up there at the End?" I'm I I feel like there's one of those happened during the Obama years, but I can't Oh, there there are plenty of plenty of them. I mean, yeah, but you're absolutely right. You've got and that's that's why it's like I struggle with the Whitmer because I think again her brand is I work with everybody and I think that's her if she if you tell me I always I do the coma test. If I'm in a coma I wake up and

you tell me Gretchen Whitmer's the nominee. Oh well, she must Have prioritized this, right? You know what I mean? Like you're just and the party bought into the idea that hey, we need somebody who can win and we need somebody who's willing to willing to to to work with with red voters as much as there were with blue voters, right? So I I get it and that's why it's just poor execution. That's really what it was on both cases. We should also stipulate that anyone like I agree with your coma test, but just we have

no idea What voters are actually going to want when the primary even starts. Like the example I always use is after Bush won in '04, the entire consensus was we need someone who can win a red state. And in that vision was a white man. Right? That's what like people cannot fathom uh a lot of our younger listeners and staff that Mark Warner was the toast of the town in the year 2005. People were clamoring over themselves to work for Mark Warner. I think that was my first NBC scoop for them was was reporting that

Mark Warner wasn't running which was a gigantic deal. I was working for Ev. We had real visions of being the uh the next Mark Warner. And look, let's be honest. Why did you go work for Evan Bay? Because you cared about the state of Indiana's policies. Sure. But you thought maybe that was a presidential campaign to be built. Well, two reasons. One, he he told me he was going to run for president. Uh and two, almost as Importantly, I had just helped make Tom Dashel the first Senate leader to lose re-election in 50 years. And

so, if someone's offering me a job, I'm taking that job. So, uh but yeah, that was a thought was that was a kind of electable candidate. And then two years later, Barack Hussein Obama uh from the south side of Chicago via Indonesia and Hawaii wins the nomination and wins the presidency in a landslide. But it didn't mean that people weren't wrong, right? They had to figure out how to win some red states. Well, it turns out you needed a better communicator. If you have a good communicator, they can win a red state, you know, and

and frankly, I thought, well, anyway, he did Obama always knew the limitations of his ideology. he may have believed, you know, which is something that I think is is is a lost art these days to know where the public is going to be. Yeah. To sort of be able to balance. Look, I I Have some views. You know, I always say this. I get frustrated. People think they know my political views. I'm like, no, you don't. I said, I just know how things get done, and I just believe you get most things done from the

middle out. But on some issues, if I told you my position, you think I'm some radical lefty or some radical this or whatever. But the longer you live, right, the longer you see this town operate, you realize, well, if you want anything to Stick, you got to you got to start like take Obamacare. That was not the way he wanted to pass healthcare. Not even structurally necessarily, but he decided, no, I want to do it. So, what's the best way to politically get it done? Right? And that's all I think voters are looking for. Are

you a pragmatist enough to to get to your goals? We don't care how you do it as long as you achieve a goal. Let's transition a little bit to the state of the media today. Um you Were the editor of the hotline a which is when you and I first met a publication that was literally faxed to my office. Um and every person in Washington ate their lunch while reading uh the hotline printed out on basically the it's it's pretty much the original newsletter right before newsletter. I was going to say it's it's what playbook

and everything else is based on. It's all derivative. The note was a derivative. All these things were Derivative of the original hotline. Yeah. But actually more valuable than these things because the internet was nent and what you would do is it would tell you what was happening in every state and every district. Right. and and we went out of our we had to create a network of people that I mean Dan if I told you I mean it's no different than you know building volunteers but I had you know all sorts of weird relationships with

people who liked Clipping papers and faxing them to me for in exchange for a free subscription to the hotline and they got up either they bought the bulldog edition at one o'clock in the morning and sent me stuff or whatever but yeah that was our internet that we built. you're at you're at the Hotline and then NBC uh as political director then host of Meet the Press uh White House correspondent then the ultimate sort of establishment media gig, right? Yes, Exactly. I was say and now you have left NBC. You're an independent journalist. Um how's

the water? Tell me. It's it's great. I'll be honest with you. We're more the more the marrier. it. I want to ask you about your decision to do it because I think it says something not just about your journey but maybe how media's changed over the 25 years that you and I have known each other. Um so just how did you end up hosting a podcast like I do? So I you know it's a Look it's a good question. I've sort of you know I've soured on traditional media because traditional media doesn't want to grow

anymore. And it's not that, you know, one of the things I said about leaving NBC is is, you know, the last year was hard because it was the first time I worked anywhere where there wasn't um an environment to grow. Now I' I've had to lay people off. I've been at cuts, but you every other um sort of time that there was a sort of A media recession, right, where you had to tighten the belt, but you would tighten the belt on some legacy media project or older media project, but you would double down and

invest on what the new was, right? And there was always and even even my last two years of of Meet the Press, I was focused on streaming, right? I was focused on getting the show ready for like it was clear we're headed here, you know, and and it felt like a it felt like where where people were Going to recover from cable, right? I I call cable news um FM radio for the 90s, right? There's still money to be made, but you can feel that its relevance is slowly receding. FM radio, right? Radio had had

impact in the 90s, but you knew its relevance was receding, right? Howard Stern or Rush Limbaugh could make some waves, but by the turn of the century, radio was almost irrelevant um as a medium. And I and I don't know if that's 2030 with cable, right? I'm sort Of have a split personality here, right? I still feel like I've got something to say in the political analyst space. I in the one thing I was doing that I enjoyed the most at NBC was the podcast. I do think the Sunday show interview and frankly the television

interview as we know it in traditional media is just useless. I I I don't that people are trying to make it useful, but whether it's politicians who are trying to use the medium to raise money or it's Journalists trying to use the interview to become influencers, whatever it is, right, the podcast is the one, you know, for for political discussions, having the 30 minutes, having the nuance, right, feels like a it's just a more fulfilling time both for the guest. I mean, every elected official I've interviewed so far, and whether it's in my previous version

of the podcast or now, they they you know, it's been easier to book them for this than it was For the Sunday show, right? Because they they the Sunday show felt like a stress test, right? And you were you were worrying about so many other things where this you feel like you you get a so I just enjoy this format more, right? So, just as personal, you know, thing. But the other part is I I've you talk about the hotline, you know, I didn't own the hotline, but I felt like an entrepreneur, right? I felt

like I was part of the ownership group. I wasn't. Trust me, this newsletter craze happened and we didn't make any money off of it. You know, that that's always something I the late Doug Bailey and I used to laugh at all the time. Um but um I do think we're in a moment of you know if you look at the history of and I just go back to sort of the late 19th century going through the last sort of 130 years of media it's been a series of fragmentation and consolidations right when we figured out

how to Reproduce the the photograph magazines proliferated and we had a slew of magazines in the 10 the 20s and the 30s when the initial beginning of radio, man. There were radio stations all over, all locally owned, you know, but in each case over time, you got consolidation, right? And every time a new technology came, there'd be some fragmentation. Cable's another one. Over time, it turned into consolidation. We're now at a look, streaming and the ability to Sort of instantaneously be anywhere you want to be, interview anywhere you want to interview. I mean, think of

this. It wasn't that long ago, Dan, that um NBC used to have something called where in the world is Matt Lowauour. And it was a big deal because it was like we're gonna broadcast from the Gobi Desert, you know, right? Or we're going to broadcast from the the South Pole. Well, anybody with a phone can do this now, right? Like there is no limits, right? So that is notice that there's no where in the world is Al Roker or you know, I say this because that's you're like so what, right? you know, there's some Instagram

feed that's probably been doing this for the last 10 years, right? Showing you in all these places. So, I do think that I spent a year sort of on this journey to figure out why do they hate us? How did we lose trust? And the ultimate conclusion I came to was The loss of local that the gutting of local news. I mean, I I I have this sort of cheap hot take line, which is a guy named Craig thought classifides ought to be free, yada yada yada, Donald Trump became president. And it's, you know, because

it turned out any newspaper that had a a a circulation of 50,000 or less, a majority of their revenue was classified. And so it just gutted uh it just gutted. And I do think that National media has never been fully trusted by people, but local media gave were our character references, right? when local media sort of was reporting what we're report oh okay right you know that yeah I you know I know those guys or you know my kid goes to school with that guy's kid or you know there was just a little bit more

familiarity and I think it gave us trust and I think the loss of of local is why you know the farther you are away from a politician Or the farther you're away from a media person the more you assume they don't know how you live right they don't understand your life so I'm I'm you know that's the you when I'm not making content, that's what I'm focused on is I want to try to scale local news. I want to try to find a revenue stream because I don't think nonprofit's the answer. I think it hasn't

worked. It's been it's filled the vacuum, but it's unfortunately I think a lot of these Nonprofit news organizations are making too much what I call journalism for journalists and not enough service journalism. And I think local news really needs to be in service of the people that live in a community. meaning they're you're helping them live their lives in versus national news which I think is your civics you know telling you what you know what you need you know what the macro view of the world is and I have a thesis that youth sports and

High school sports can be the glue and the revenue stream that could be the future of local news so in short that's that's why this is exciting to me because I can both create a podcast independently own it and pursue this you know I'm just trying I enjoy the fact that I don't have to ask permission to some corporate parent to do anything right now. The local thing is really interesting in terms of how it's affected our politics. You know, I was I Did an interview with John Tester after he lost and one of the

things we talked about was how much the decimation of local news in these red states has hurt Democrats. Like when I worked for Tim Johnson in 2002, South Senator from South Dakota, he only won re-election because we were able to run a campaign where he was with the local press all the time. So people knew who he was and what he did as opposed to the caricature of him. And so like that is like Chester Was saying like how much that had changed from when he first won in ' 06 or whatever it was to

now was there just wasn't those people who could tell your story to people like in a non-polarized way. And so it it just has a huge uh huge impact in what's happening in politics. No. And I think if if and look this is not just about you know starting a local news organization that is only focused on on trying to figure out what's happening at city council Meetings. It's also just simply about helping people where where do I find a restaurant I can take my family out tonight that isn't going to be break the bank

and hey did you know this store's got you know the newspaper was an incredible device for people in a partic and what I think the biggest mistake we all made as journalists was assuming most people subscribed to the paper to pay for news. No, most people subscribed to the paper um not because of the news. It was basically in order to understand what the hell was going on in in in the community, right? Whether it was movie listings, TV guide, coupons, you know, whatever it is, that that was a bigger part of the purchase than

I think we journalists want to admit. Yeah. Right. And so I think that we have to get out of this phase. This is if we want what we have the the people that want to be informed will always find a way to be informed. The problem in our politics today is is that we don't have a way to accidentally inform people and you know which is the stuff they would catch. There's this great study that I'm obsessed with it involves newspapers where and it still worked which is a couple of college academics did this you

know saw that there's a correlation that if you get a newspaper delivered to your house you're more likely to vote. So they wanted to say, Okay, what if we just forcefed a newspaper to people? Would it increase that group of people's um voting history? And sure enough, it did. They sent the paper to a whole bunch of people that didn't vote in their last election. And just the simple act of throwing away the newspaper at least told them when the election was and the those people came out in a in in bigger numbers than those

that did not receive the paper. So there's something to Accidentally informing people that were missing. We've that's something we've 100% lost because like on a national political level for a while there you could be accidentally informed of something related to politics from Facebook but now that or Twitter if you were one of those people who engage but now they turn off the algorithm. Right. Right. So now you don't get that. I think the the other um interesting thing that I think is hard for people to Understand now, you had to get the paper to know

what the weather or turn on the local news to know what the weather was going to be, to know what when a movie was and to know the score of the baseball game, right? And in turning on the news, picking up the paper, you were going to bump into some sort of information even if you just read the that's why we everyone cared about the headlines, right? I mean, we still fight about headlines all the time, but no one Cares about headlines anymore because no one looks the paper's not sitting around. Now, headlines matter for

whether you get a YouTube click or not. They do m Well, they also matter in terms of this is a fight I've back when I was still fighting with reporters that they matter more in the social era than they do because people only seeing the clip when they scroll. But, but the the thing that's interesting now is that because the internet, as we commonly Understand it, has collapsed like for a while then you didn't either. So, we could find all those things on the internet. But because Google is such a disaster right now because of

AI slop and and ads and everything else there you the world has become so much more confusing that you almost you need curated information again right which I think is a lot of what's happening in independent journalism and I and I do think that there's a way and again I Think we know consolidation is coming I just don't know what it looks like on Substack right I don't know what it looks like on YouTube but it's coming and and as you know that's part of and you know you guys are cons in some ways you're

planted a flag and and you know I hope to consolidated. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to elevate your online presence and drive your success. Squarespace provides All the tools you need to promote and get paid for your services in one platform. Create a professional website to showcase your offerings and attract clients. Whether you offer consultations, events, or other experiences, Squarespace can help you grow your business. Squarespace offers a complete library of professionally designed and award-winning website templates with options for every use and category. No matter where you

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building a website or adding a professional email service, don't wait to claim your name. Invest in your dream domain today. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com/crooked to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or Domain. That's squarespace.com/crooked. Well, now that you're an independent journalist, I assume you can speak even more freely than you have otherwise about how your your former colleagues in the traditional press are doing their job. What's your take on how people are covering Trump right now? Are they doing a good

job? Well, I think it's difficult because um I just happen to know many of these Journalists know they don't have the support of their corporate bosses and so it is creat this is it's real. Okay, I don't I'm not going to get into I don't want to get into names that I for a variety of reasons. Um but it's obvious, right? The the this is we can feel it, right? and and the reporters themselves are frustrated because they're not sure. It's one of those moments where they're going to they're going to think and they're going

to look behind Them and nobody's following, right? Um, you know, I'm just, you know, it's come up quite a bit the the issue when when Jake and a few others, you know, were upset when you guys didn't allow Fox into the pool for a for a Ken Fineberg interview. I don't know if you remember that. You remember that incident? Oh, I do remember it quite well, Chuck. I do. And and Right. But the point is, you know, this is where it's like I I I just like we we were genuine in why we were Fighting.

It was like the shoe's going to be on the other foot, right? We you know, it's inevitable. And so the lack of anybody coming to AP's defense has just been heartbreaking to me. And are are you surprised by that? Like like it's not surprising me their defense, but no, but that there's been every attempt at collective action. None. And I think the fear of course was that the collective action wouldn't matter. And that's I think the difficulty here, Right? You've got to you've got it's like, you know, I'm haunted by what the managing partner for

Paul Weiss said when he said, "Look, we we look for allies and instead they were poaching our clients, right? Look at what certain news organizations are doing. They're virtue signaling on saying, well, all right, we'll we'll we'll call it we'll call the Gulf whatever name you want us to call it." and you're just like, you know, on one hand, I Understand that it's your mission that you're trying to be above this and that you're not trying to get caught into this, but you know, ultimately the first amendment is the first amendment and what how they

kic look how they kicked AP out of the pool was the issue. Look, they can decide, they could do what they want, but it was the rationale was clearly unconstitutional. If you can't stand up for that basic principle, then get out of journalism, right? like that Should that is you know what hill do you die on that hill die on that hill because if you die on that hill then it's done anyway right like what's the point so I've been I I don't think it's fair now I'll say this I you know I I I

I certainly think there's been plenty of good individual journalism but you can feel there's not a comfort level of how do you cover this Trump white house and and covering the Trump white house is hard because you know the public stuff Is not true so the best way to report is behind the scenes which then in itself becomes you're you're you end up having to litigate your sourcing and litigate all this and it's like so it it is both a I think it's both easy to report on Trump because everybody does talk um a lot

of times off the record or on background or stuff like this but it is hard because of how aggressive the Westwing is and essentially trying to exploit these uh exploit the um Unpopularity of the tradition media. Yeah. I like this is be my my take on it. I think a lot of indiv individual reporters are doing a lot of very good journalism and they're digging deep and they're telling detailed stories about you know the deportation plans or that New York Times story that went or the 60-minute story that went through all the Venezuelans who were

sent to uh the Gulog and El Salvador. Like there's a lot of very good stuff happening. There's three problems I think with the overall coverage. One is, and this is unconscionable, is what the corporate parents at like Disney and Paramount are doing to basically pay off Trump uh for reasons have nothing to do with the journalism, but because they have other business before the government. It's early stages kleptocracy. I have a I have a guest earlier this week who a specialist in this. I mean, you know, people you know, people on the right get Upset

at me that I'm using the word, but I don't know how else what else do you call it? That inaugural fund is just that. Yeah, it's pay to play. We're doing pay to play. I mean, 60 Minutes, the the number one news brand in all of the industry for 50 years is going to by the end of this period probably pay help fund Donald Trump's library so that the owners of the Paramount Corporation can get billions of dollars. Like that is what's going to happen. But the point Is, and I want you to finish your

thought because I'm curious about it uh on that, but you already have alienated the right. Doing this isn't going to help you with the right and all you're going to do is alienate the people that still trusted you. Yeah. And now nobody's going to trust anything out of those out of out of those major traditional media outlets. It's a huge and and can I just tell you member individual members of those traditional Outlets are seething over this and are demoralized and depressed and it's across the board. Dan anyway sorry. Yeah. And it is. But so

this is and they don't I don't think the corporate parents care because as the media economics have changed. The amount of money that these media outlets are bringing in for the parent company has gone down, right? And they know it's it's it is going down. You know why I'm bitter about this? Because during COVID, We were the only revenue they had and and and they took our revenue. We all took pay cuts. They took our revenue and applied it elsewhere. And then when elsewhere got Yeah. It's time for media to the the news divisions have

to put on a raincoat. But where's you know where's the pay it forward? We were there when you had no revenue during co brother. Yeah. You know, no sports, nothing. We were the revenue and it did. The news divisions generated all this sort of uh It it it kept them afloat in certain instances. So some of us individually are very bitter about their behavior because it's like they have a total memory loss that this is the whole reason why you are conglomerate. Some things are down, but you're gonna have some things that are up, and

then when some things go down, you have other things that are up. I thought that's why you wanted to be a multi-, you know, national corporation. Sorry. Right. It's Very problematic. Okay. Second, my second issue with the coverage is is what you brought up that they're not sticking with the AP. I understand, and I've talked to some reporters about this, that the fear is that they'll just there will be no Yeah. So what, right? Objective journalists in anything. It'll just be a bunch of bag of people. Um, and for the individual reporters, like this is

their livelihood. So I I still believe they should stand up. But I do, You know how many Republican senators have told me? Well, if I'm not there, you won't imagine who replaces me. Right. It's the same mindset. Yep. Yeah. But then they just act like that. That's right. But the third thing I think is still a challenge we have is I'm not sure that much of sort of, and I keep using the term traditional because I think mainstream is a sort of a Sarah Palinsesque term that I don't really love. Traditional is the fairest you

can Do. Legacy feels negative, too. Yeah. The traditional political press is incapable of telling like they're very good at identifying the trees in Donald Trump's forest, but they're incapable of describing the forest in appropriate terms, right? To what exact to talk about what is there exceptions to this. There are some people do it very well, others who do it less well, but like we are undergoing a fundamental assault on democracy as we know it. And people are Really struggling to describe that in very true ways for whatever reasons. And we there are cultural reasons, there

are professional reasons, the reasons self-interest, but the full sort of people don't. I think this is the biggest dividing line among the opposition to Trump is this issue that you just identified because I think, you know, I've always said, you know, the biggest riddle we have to solve in America is there's a 60% majority that Would like to have an alternative to Donald Trump. It's it's the problem is that 60% can't agree on anything, right? And you have about half who believe that this is we are in a existential moment and you have half that

simply believe that no the one party has lost their mind and and we'll be able to quote unquote revert back in and I think that's the tension that you I think that tension bears out in the press. I think you have some in the press that see it As a existential crisis and some that view this as a Republican party crisis that will go away when Trump goes away. Um I I'll be honest, I vacasillate on this. I go back and forth. I think the party is a kletocracy right now. I mean, just look at

how Trump and the meme coins and you know, hey, you know, if you buy this memecoin now, you get you get money here. So, you can't succeed in the Republican party without paying off Trump. So, that is the beginnings of a Kleptocracy. Um, are we Erdogan? No. Um, are we early stages Orban? Maybe. Right. So, that's when I say I find myself vacasillating back and forth. I do think our democracy isn't going to go away tomorrow because I think our local it's too it's too ingrained in so many places. Right. So, that's I think you've

I always I feel like that issue is the is the real tension even among those that know we're on the wrong path. Yeah. Let me ask you this. You say you Vacasillate on it. You leaned one way or the other. It seems to me that we are in uh a pretty bad place. Doesn't mean we can't get out of it, but we're the direction we are headed and we are only 100 days in seems quite concerning. Yeah, I'm I'm like more devastated on an international way than I am domestically. Like I can we heal politically,

we can heal quickly domestically. I think we've we've created problems that are going to Internationally that are going to take a generation to rebuild. And that's that that is whether it's trust um with other countries. Um what we've done to Canada I think is something that is gonna going to be problematic for beyond one. You know it's going to take America electing you know a Republican president that isn't you know a Democratic and a Republican president back toback that is so opposite of Trump. You know what I mean? Like I it's a minimum decade Before

we earn the trust back of our key allies. I think we are he has launched a a nationalism in a lot of places right nationalism out of survival the way many countries I think are going to view this and so I just so when I that's when I say I vacasillate I think the dam I think the damage internationally I don't think people fully appreciate how bad it is and how long that will take to recover um trust I mean you know America's been trying to Get trust back in Latin America for 50 years and

we set ourselves back quite you know, every time we take one step forward, there's usually something that puts us two steps back. So, um I that's how I've vacasillate because I think domestically we'll recover faster than we will internationally. Earlier this month, you were on Crystal, you were talking to Chrisa, um a fellow substacker and podcast host, but about that you said that the supposed media Cover up of Biden's decline was a right-wing manufactured right-wing premise in order to stain the media. I I don't I think the idea that the media was covering it up

is absurd. Well, that's what I'm upset about. It's the the idea that the media the media is the reason why the public thought he was too old because the media showed you him shuffling every day. And the media show didn't have the interviews with him and would tell you the media would show you That, hey, he's using the short staircase, right? You know, how is it that Fox even had the clips to show, right? It was the med. So, and you know, now were there pundits on MSNBC and CNN who essentially tried to shame any

member of the press that would bring this up? Yes, that was true. I mean, Joe Scarboro did this, right? He was very aggressive as a defender of Joe Biden whenever it seemed like it was necessary, whenever this Would pop up. But this idea that it wasn't an issue, my goodness, Dean Phillips did run for president on this issue. Now, there were certain reportedly he did. Yes. Well, I mean, but that's and you're and you're right. Like, but I would argue it was it's the Democratic party that's responsible for this. They're the ones that argue with

you. And this is the party's fault. It look, you know, the media is not an organ of the Democratic party. And There's too many Democrats who wish the media was. And there are too many people in the media who sometimes think that is their job. And and my frustration is that look, it wasn't. David Ignatius had a front page column that they put on the front page when they did it that he shouldn't run again. They that column ran in the front page of the Washington Post in October of 2023. You know, so the idea

that the that somehow the media was all in cahoots to to is just Nonsense. Now, I know how this happened. You know how this happened. Everybody's personal interaction with Biden was good enough when you thought the alternative was Donald J. Trump. And if if the com if everybody had been asked the same question and Nikki Haley was the person standing over there, there would have been a chorus of Democrats who would have said he can't run for re-election. There's a tension in what you just said there. And I want to get I want to get

Back to the media for a second, but the tension is did they say that because Donald Trump is so dangerous that we can't possibly talk about how old Joe Biden is, or is it because Democrats thought that Joe Biden that Donald Trump could be beaten and Nikki Haley could not? Yeah, you know, it's a good question. It goes to one of Joe Biden's favorite expressions. Don't judge me by the almighty, judge me by the alternative. Right. I think there were plenty of Democrats who were assessing Biden's situation based on, well, Trump's manic, Biden's slower. Okay,

they both have issue. You know what I mean? Like it it became it became more of a reactionary response. Like my point is I understand the human you know look I I don't I don't want to violate an off the record but I had Jeff Science speak to my my class of kids a couple weeks ago and of course they all asked and Jeff Science Answer off the record was the same answer he's given on the record you know which is in my dealings with him Joe Biden was fine right and if you've noticed so

many people from that West Wing usually word it that way well in my experience right it was fine which by the way both things can be true yeah do I at let's put aside whether the media like there is some room and and that's why well the reason I'm upset about this Is that we know what Fox only wants the right they're trying desperately to make the media part of the Democratic party to create distrust in in in legitimate journalists in order to get their pabum believed by by by by their viewers. So this is

why about it this is why I get my backup about it. It's an intentional business strategy that so what if the truth isn't there? We're just trying to discredit that. And look, I I take it as a badge of honor. They get obsessed with Trying to discredit me because I think they know I have plenty of legitimate uh legitimacy. But there is another sort of um conversation around Biden happening. Alex Thompson of Axio stood up at the White House correspondents dinner this weekend where he won an award for his coverage of Biden's age and he

said that essentially that the the media had sort of failed here that they had not done enough uh reporting on Joe Biden's mental capacity up until Prior to the day. Can you define media? Well, I mean I think he meant the people in the room, right? Look, do I think the people in the White House press corps and that media is my word, not Alex's. Yes. No. And that's the thing like I, you know, this is where and this is where I get, you know, you're sort of like, well, what's the media these days? How

do you define it? You know, is it is it the the the White House press corps? Yeah, I could argue that the White House Press corps didn't make this an issue. Uh, and they could have. Where's the president today? How come he's not doing a public event today? How come he hasn't done a press conference today? You know, there wasn't that. So, I will I I accept that that that didn't exist in that press room. And I think this is where the Biden White House created a chill among reporters. Meaning, if you dared do that,

good luck getting your interview that you were hoping to get With Biden or Harris, etc. So, there was a there was a they made it clear there was a price to pay, I think, to some reporters. So, yeah, I do think some some pulled their pulled their punches in that press room because they were daily interacting with the Biden press shop. Do you think this was one of the other contentions out there is that the Democratic party covered this up? This was a Well, what's there to cover up? I mean, I say this in that

was there a Parkinson's diagnosis that nobody reported on. Do you know what I mean? Like, what's the cover up? What I would say, forget cover up. It was obvious that he could it wasn't up for a second term. He himself promised. Now, I can't tell you how many people who I've talked to who that were on stage with him when he said transitional president and what they all heard and what they all believe they heard that were standing on that stage with him. They all heard one term. And so, um I think it's the people

in the West Wing, you know, look, I had a cabinet secretary, and I said this on a after after the debacle of the debate because I felt like I could share it, but it was an off thereord. I had a cabinet secretary who asked me at the end of 22, he can't run again, right? And this cabinet secretary, you know, and said, you know, I said, ' Do you ever get any facetime with him? He says, nope. And it was it was, you know, and Those stories were reported about how cabinet secretaries don't get facetime

with the president, right? They limited the interactions because they wanted to limit the conversations, right? Nobody had it hard that he wasn't available, right? It was always just whispers or, "Huh, he's not." It was what he wasn't doing that turned out to be the evidence, right? He wasn't able to do this or he wasn't able to do that or he wasn't a I mean, the Super Bowl Interview, which again, plenty of This is why I'm like, it's not as if it was hidden. This is why I take this idea that it's this such this black

and white that the media was part of the cover up versus never. Please, all the conversation around this. Wow. You don't even want to do a Super Bowl interview. Is it that difficult? Are you that concerned? Right? Like it was all out there in the ether. That's why the fault belongs to the Democratic party. It's Joe Biden. It's Joe Biden. It's Nancy Pelosi. It's Chuck Schumer. It's Ron Clay. It's Jeff Science. It's everybody that was around him. And and you know, I do think that it's I think it's a weaker defense. Rahm Emanuel coming out

and saying, "Well, I said I told people." I don't think that's going to come across very well. By the way, I don't know if you saw those comments that he made. He says, "Why?" There are a lot of people now who are out there saying they told I Did. I did. There a lot of people out there saying that they told people. The thing that I try to tell people is based on my many years in Washington is that Washington DC doesn't do conspiracies. It only does collective failures. And there was no meeting where people

decided to get together and do this. It's just a collection of people making the wrong decision over and over again. Let me ask you, should you guys have used your voice more to drive him out of The race? Yeah, we've we've talked about this. We've talked about this. If I if I look at myself self-critically, I had not spoken or seen Biden since he called me right before the election. I talked to him uh for like five 10 minutes and he was great and I interviewed him before the election and he was totally fine. Like

there's no not even a question there and I had talked to a bunch of people who had gone to work on the campaign who had told me He's great. Then we get to the White House and I didn't see him again until uh White House correspondents dinner weekend 2024 and he was it was like I was at a White House reception and he was bad. He was quite bad in it and he told the same story twice and he just seemed mostly old. Not in no way did I look at that and say that man

cannot do the job of president. I had real concerns that he could not do it for four more years. Um but he just like Your concern you look at that if someone with my perspective is man that's a guy who's going to struggle on the campaign trail in a presidential campaign. Um but I also thought to myself well it's Friday. This is a super bizarre event the night before the White House correspondent center. I knew he was coming from speech prep and going back to speech prep on a Friday evening. Even Barack Obama was not

was not a great communicator on a Friday evening. Um Right and so you know it's I trusted the people who I talked to who said he was fine. And I also believed, and I said this at the time after the Robert Her report came out, is that if Biden really was having these like mental lapses all over town, everyone would know it. Well, and now you're getting, you know, reporters have to have sources to report stuff. Yeah. That's another problem. Yeah. Right. Is that you might have a like, boy, this looks one way and every

Time you try to report it out, you got a different answer. Right. Yeah. And because there he has obviously had good moments and bad moments. We talked a lot on this podcast before the debate about how his age was a huge problem. I had a lot of thoughts that I shared publicly and privately about things that he should do to address that. Should I have been more concerned that he wasn't doing them? Probably. Right. Look, it's all obvious now, you know, and I and I, you Know, it's, you know, I I I got ridiculed for

even hosting Dean Phillips for a podcast, you know, and yet I was like, "Oh, great. I guess I've, you know, but I was already, look, I was in a weird position. And I was post Meet the Press, so I was trying not to compete with with bookings and other stuff. So I was in a weird spot, you know, to to not I was sort of a walking ghost, right? So I I had to be I had to be careful. But it was, you know, it's One of those things where I think news organizations were trying

to get interviews with the president and I, you can't tell me that didn't have an impact on what might be said publicly versus what you might know privately, which is so funny because one, Biden wasn't doing very many interviews, and two, it's not like a Biden interview was a giant rating spoon in the way a Trump interview in 2017 was or an Obama interview. And can I just tell you as a Journalist, I hate No, I know you didn't mean it this way. I hate the idea that you think we're that someone tries to get

an interview because they might think it's good. I just wanted to get an interview. I think your boss think that like they may think that. I just wanted a Joe Biden interview because I'm trying to there's a whole bunch of questions I have for him. Like, you know, like I really think most journalists think that way and in fact are disappointed if Other viewers aren't as interested, right? Like it's more the opposite. They hope viewers are as interested in something as they are. But anyway, I I just it it is a lot of us don't

think of the ratings thing first if you're trying to Yeah, that's fair. I just, you know, I'm not saying there aren't other bookings that are that way. Yeah. Your your network bosses were thinking that way. No. And you're not wrong. Anyone's boss, not just my network, old network, But yeah. Um let's just because you brought that because we talked about presidential interviews. This is him, my thought. Do you think I I was watching Terry Moran's interview with Donald Trump in the Oval Office on Tuesday night about the hundth day. Do you think it is possible,

and you've you've interviewed him, but do you think it's possible to do a good, productive, constructive interview with Donald Trump? It all depends on what you're Trying to do. I mean, I I've I'll tell you the interview that I never got to conduct with him that I that I haven't seen anybody do that I actually still want to do. So, for instance, the third term nonsense. If you ask him, he's going to play with this topic almost the way a cat plays with uh with a with a dead mouse. You know, I in fact, I

promise you if I phrased a question like the following to Donald Trump, why is why is Japan a country? How come we don't own Japan? We bombed them. We beat them in World War II. You know what Trump would probably say? You're right. And you could create a headline, Donald Trump thinks Japan ought to be American territory, right? Is he really serious about it or is it like the movie Anchor Man where he'll accept any premise so you be careful? So, I do think there's a responsibility as a journalist that, you know, be careful asking

something that feels like A shiny metal object that might make you feel like you get a cheap headline that actually isn't really that substantive like Trump third term. I'm sorry. I just I that, you know, I I'm not I'm not there on Trump third term the way some other people are. Yeah. But here's what I wish would be asked to him. Why'd you choke on January 6th? So, what I would do is I think the trick to interviewing Donald Trump is to hand him rope. I think the mistake that I've Made and many others make

is to try to bring him into your reality when maybe you're better off helping the viewer see his reality. I like that. So, you know what this means? Donald Trump, come on Chuck Toddcast. I, you know, I don't think it's a 0% chance. You know how they operate. I you know I mean he he believes he can handle any interview and if you get and his staff if he wants to do something his staff will never stop Him. Yeah. Well I think that is a great place to end it. I I would love to see

you do that interview with Donald Trump on your podcast. Chuck Todd. Thanks for being on Positive America. Great to talk to you as always. It's great to talk to you Fifer. I love it.