I think majority of the people that I have hired do not have certification. I think that the certificates are mainly for companies to do marketing. Okay.
not to prove that somebody is skilled or understands what they're doing because in none of the conversations that I've had with customers or BPOS's or vendors nobody asked me are you certified in this I don't think I have any certificates so I guess I am at my job what they did have is a crazy good potential I've been involved in hiring processes and I've never requested for a person to have a certificate or a degree. I want logical thinking. I want somebody that's going to approach things with an open mind.
It's like why the heck do we say that this is normal and I think as an industry we should say ask me let's discuss it. I think we should start rating the hiring process in companies and start socializing it from there because obviously uh we we have to do better than that. So I was asking him something about how would you react if I give you feedback on the back of something that was shared with me as your manager whatever and he turned around and said why would you give me feedback before check with me what actually happened.
My work as a manager is not to slap you down and show my power to do the best job for my people so they can do the best job. How many companies want external expertise just to tell them that they are [Music] right? Welcome to WFM on filtered.
I'm your host Arena and I'm having someone joining the show again because you know what exactly like the host he has a very big mouth and he's not afraid to use it. So before I give him the words to reintroduce himself, I want to quickly make two announcements. So if you enjoy the show, if you're a WFM, if you want to support the show, please take two seconds to subscribe, write a rating or a review.
And if you're in a need of a WFM support, just go to writewfm. com and see if we can maybe work together and do some magic. But before we talk about that highly uncomfortable topic, I would say Leah, how are you doing?
We're staying local today on the balcon. So, what better to do on a Friday evening, guys? It's 7 my time.
10 7 on a Friday. And for you, it's uh 10 6. 6.
Yep. 10. The dedication.
We're we're so far far apart. It's like an hour drive and and Yeah. like hour and a half drive.
So, yeah. Far away. Far away.
I think I can wave to you probably from my window and see you. But how are you doing? Tell me what's going on.
Doing great. Doing great. Uh unlike the last time, now I have a new role and a couple of certificates behind me because they're, you know, uh tell me about them.
They're so important. Uh first about my role. Yes.
Let me let me take the pace. Um I am a manager of professional and managed services. For those who don't know or understand that manager of manage and professional services I'm working in a BO uh that is actually BO.
So not a call center, not an agent provider. Uh we're providing managed and professional services around workforce management, their tools and consulting on everything else in the call center. Fancy.
Fancy. Fancy new role. Fancy new um certificates.
Yeah, certificates. So now I'm more qualified to do my job that I was actually doing before. Actually, part of our conversation is about certification.
So let let me start with you because uh let me think. I'm not fancy enough. I don't think I have any certificates.
So I guess I am at my job. That's that's not good. That's not good.
Yeah, that's that's really not good. Um well, you know, you have to have a certificate so you can prove that you understand tool especially if you're working in workforce management. Right.
Right. Right. uh it's a requirement for whatever reason when uh job post is created uh for you to have a certificate and that proves the knowledge in the tool otherwise let let's start on a serious note because often what is actually happening is companies or recruiters are publishing the job app and there is a big part in which in a lot of companies they do require those certific ification, right?
Which is where my whole issue kicked in because first of all, this is a rather new concept. Second of all, I have seen some generic WFM certifications and they're absolute And third of all, this is a way of companies to generate money, right? You need to pay to obtain that certification.
So, you can already understand that there is quite a big interest for for this, right? On the other hand, a lot of companies actually do not have any WFM tools, but they don't require you to have an Excel certification. You just can say, "Yeah, I I kind of know my way around Excel.
" And then you're magically hired. So, what what kind of um value do we hold in those certificates? And how how can we actually prove to companies that experience it's much better than a piece of paper that I can create here within five minutes and start sitting around.
That's a fair question. So I don't hold any values in those certificates because there there is nothing to hold value to. I don't understand why they are provided.
um they should be naturally provided for you completing a training that is not you doing your job, it's you learning something. Uh when it comes to workforce management tools, uh it's really to the provider that's providing the tool to make it easil easily navigable I would say and not have these courses of 70 hours learning how to navigate to a system and then be certified in it because it doesn't know you understand workforce management. just shows that you've went through a training or a course for a specific workforce management tool.
My first thought actually on this one was maybe I do understand vendors because especially if you're a partner uh system integrator, they do want to know that that you have certain experience that then they can guarantee. Uh but on the other hand to be honest if you just learn how to click and push some buttons in the toe but you cannot you're not a WFM person you cannot apply the process to the toe. Does it really bring you that much?
Is it going to be better impression of the vendor that I just learned the sequence of buttons that I need to push? What do you think about that? We we're navigating into a dangerous territory.
uh our favorite than yours. I think that the certificates are mainly for companies to do marketing around them. Okay.
not to prove that somebody is skilled or understands what they're doing because in none of the conversations that I've had with clients or customers or BPOS's or vendors, nobody asks me, are you certified in this or do you understand how this is working? We're just having a plain conversation of needs and then how we're going to fill those needs. Right?
So I really think that these maybe maybe in the past look let let let's take it from the beginning. There is no kind of structured way of learning workforce management or trainings that are going to set you straight. Yeah.
So what these companies that are vendors to software solutions for workforce management can really do is maybe instead of focusing on how you push this button and it does a thing tell you why this thing is done and why in their system is better. Oh that's an interesting spin. Okay.
I I like that because one of my biggest issues with the solution consultants and as a user and as a independent consultant I'm always having a big issue if I spot the solution consultant that knows the tool and doesn't know WFM because then I'm like how are you going to give me approach? How are you going to help me solve my challenge that I have outside of a tool when you don't understand it, when you don't relate it? And I think it's a fair question that we don't address enough.
And to do um bit a little bit of a further spin that's also the issue that I have with a lot of uh support um teams in WFM tools because they know even less of the solution. They're not WFM people. They're just support people that usually takes you weeks to explain them what your actual issue is.
So the quality seems to be like me hands-on hands-on working with some of those teams uh on one or another side. Um, that's really really true. And I don't know if it's on purpose or if it's just not paying attention or not having people exposed enough to what the solution is.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about technical things like we're not talking about coding or APIs or blah blah blah. We're talking about a simple as a user how this tool is functioning. I don't know why companies provide customer support that is created to routing tickets instead of providing a solution.
Right? So okay then let let's uh take a step back and just reroute to the certification because I just had a sudden thought the reason why certificates are also way to attract people is because people want to know that they have achieved something from from a psychological perspective they want to know that they are differentiated by others that not everyone is having that so I think it's very attractive to say Okay, if you finalize this course or this thing, you'll get a certificate and it's fair, right? It's fair.
If you have put some efforts, you need to get some sort of reward. The question is, can we and how do we secure a good enough uh structure and knowledge coming out of those certifications. So you are actually if you're in the competition for a job you are the more skilled person not because of the paper but because you know something more than a person that work with that tool or in that area but does not have certification uh doesn't have see that's the difference between you and me now you don't have a certificate I have a certificate oh sh you get a I'm going to say the same thing again like these certifications and trainings need to have something workforce management logically explained wise in the tool itself and in the training itself and I'm saying this only and only because I was working in an ex company and I wasn't that there was no requirement for me to be certified right in that company in in their tool.
Uh and the requirement became a requirement only when I decided to branch off and not work in that X company. Um so even that is a backwards logic to me because you can use those certificates and those trainings to train your customer support. Yeah, that yeah I I agree with you.
But then as a current manager and this is one thing that I am curious about. I am a hiring manager. I have been a hiring manager for many many years before I became consultant.
And I think majority of the people that I have hired did first of all did not have certification. That's a given, right? Because back in the time that thing wasn't even existing, but they didn't even have an experience.
What they did have is a crazy good potential. the analytical thinking, the communication and I knew that if we invest in these people, they can grow so much that I would probably work better with them than somebody who is stuck in the ways to know certain things. Y and that's why I'm a bit struggling understanding why can't we pass that initial step which is the recruiter that sometimes are very hang on the you need to have a strategical and now let's jump on your favorite topic which is the university degree and how important that oh come on come on come on I've been involved in like hiring processes and I've never requested for a person to have a certificate or a degree I want logical thinking I want somebody that's going to approach things with an open mind.
Um, I don't want somebody that's going to be stuck in the ways that I tell him to see things. And knowing how to push a button in a software solution doesn't mean anything to me. Yeah.
Not to mention that um or being redone the interface changes, maybe the buttons on a different spot in the tool. So your knowledge can quickly get outdated. But um for everyone that is currently confused why are we um talking so much about it.
I have just mentioned prior the recording that um I have sometimes couple of times been reached out by recruiters and at the moment that they hear that I don't have a generic WFM certification it's like no. I was like so what is it that you think I don't know even though my entire background in this space well we just want certificate what for and probably those certificates to be honest are created by people with less experience than me not to say that everyone is like that let's let's not do that there is probably very very good programs out there I have personally not um invested into being part of them but I'm curious let's say everyone who is listening to that tell us are they helpful what does they give you is there anyone that you would recommend that is actually working and on the other hand let's talk back to the degrees so to the college degrees to the college degrees um especially uh what I have seen in western Europe some companies are very hung on you need to have a degree um luckily I'm going to say this one now I have a marketing degree and zero times zero. It had helped me with anything workforce related, but I was ticking a box.
And this is the annoying part that apparently it separates you from other people. Maybe it does make you seem smarter. I don't know.
It does. It does. I This is the thing.
Even as a manager, I disagree. So, let me tell you, I have to choose between two people, right? They're the same age.
One has zero practical experience but a degree in something completely unrelated. The other one has the x amount of years practical experience. I don't understand why the guy or the girl with the practical experience would be disqualified.
So I can just be presented with someone with the music degree or something that does not correspond to our course management. See, uh, as the difference with me having a certificate and you not, now we're at the difference you having a degree and me not. Um, and just let let Oh, hold on.
Let me stop you here. You wouldn't even make it to show your certificate because because I don't have a college degree. I will be qualified.
It's not fair. It's not fair. It's not fair.
So that means like my certificate in the solution makes me a better workforce manager or your degree in X thing makes you a better work manager. It it really doesn't it really doesn't matter. Um your degree at marketing makes you great at marketing amongst other things and my certificate at a software solution makes me great at knowing to click a button.
It does help. Yeah. Yeah.
It it really helps. I I agree. But how the heck what do we do?
Because this starts to really annoy me in recruitment process. I have also spent a lot of time with people that are truly amazing skilled people with great potential and they are just stuck in a first interview with a recruiter and they're like not being able to uh pass it because you see they just can't show whatever requirement A or B is depends depends on the role that you're being hired for. Uh I really think that entry level roles shouldn't require anything really really anything not let alone a certificate in a specific tool.
If you go into a management role then maybe experience or a certificate would be nice. Um I've seen a lot of companies in our realm of BPOS and you name it uh do testing and require work. I've been into a couple of loops uh of an favorite company of mine favorite um where I did free work uh in an interview process and then I saw my work implemented in their environment and I said never again um so yeah uh that's that there is that trend as well um here is an Excel Well, and then you complete the task and you know how it is afterwards.
Okay. Um actually we had a topic that is completely unrelated to that but we've been just nagging before the recording and we decided randomly to do an episode for WFM on filter. That's one thing that I've been thinking for the past probably good six months that starts to really really rub me the wrong way.
and to anyone who is interested in becoming a solution consultant. I'm going to give you a little bit of the um info from the kitchen. So, usually the process can be quite heavy unless you know someone on the inside.
So, first of course you go interview with let's say a recruiter, then you go to an interview with let's say a consultant and the director of whatever it is. And usually the third step is um a case that you need to prepare for a presentation or something and they give you like that very good case of this is going wrong and this is going wrong. So you need to um take that case away, work it out and present it to couple of people, two people, five people, the whole team or whatever.
And it starts to freaking rub me the wrong way because this is the definition of performing uh free work because you areing solutions that currently the company might be struggling to get. You are presenting that solutions and honestly most of the time people don't even have the decency to come back with the feedback saying you know what we chose X we chose Y or we like this we didn't like that. So I know that this is an existing process throughout many industries including art.
You're supposed to draw something and present it. But it's like why the heck do we say that this is normal? And I think as an industry we should say ask me um let's discuss it and if you don't like my answer that's fine but requiring to create a presentation lose your time invest and your brain and your potentially unique selling point and your knowledge and then be taken away.
It's like a no no. So do we have to be a little bit more vocal, give more to vendors or companies? 100% yes.
Uh first of all, the market for uh workforce like natural workforce is not set by companies or vendors or whatever. It's by the workers that are searching for that job. So if uh hundred of us apply, you are supposed to entertain a couple because you select the candidates, right?
Um imagine if you let's say there are three candidates, you give all three of them a different task. That's going to conclude to a whole project for your company for free. Freaking annoying.
I would be recruiting all the freaking time because then you you just get your job being done. So imagine all of these companies now that are all around the year searching for a workforce manager, for a capacity planner, for a scheduler for and those job posts are sitting there and are sitting there and are sitting there and nobody gets hired. And in the end, isn't that the the reason why we have trials, right?
You believe based Yeah. You you give me a specific time time frame. Like that's the point of an agreement or a contract giving a person that you hire a one month period or 3 months period trial to see if they're going to fit in the environment first and then the role that is given.
I um just had a flashback couple of years ago. I uh was applying for a job and it was was a senior position but um did they request from you to create a capacity plan for them? No, no, no, no.
It was actually worse. It had I think five steps. So, it was one of these lengthy interviews.
So, I had to go interviewed by literally every single person and team in that company. Then there was a round of um those tests that are first of all there are four times so every question was I think 30 seconds and then it was so heavy like there was different sections so it was couple of hours then there was the case then you this is uh what you have to present you go away you make the PowerPoint and then you um you work across the PowerPoint and they're asking you questions And after that you have another interview which was the final step with the whoever and then they decide and I was thinking you know what first of all if you're looking for job regardless if you don't have a job or if you do have it's stressful there are reasons why you're looking for a job right um you're already applying probably back and forth and looking around there go that like if you have to go through such process for every single company that you're applying for you wouldn't even have the time in the day to do that. So I just don't think it's fair.
I think we should start rating the hiring process in companies and start socializing from there because honestly uh we we have to do better than that. Oh yeah, definitely definitely. Any tips any what what can we do about it?
I I love the input that you gave um for having a conversation and if the right questions are asked on an interview, you would know if a person is suitable or not. It's it's really that simple. It's really that simple.
You don't have to go through a create me this in Excel and then this presentation and then come present it as in a quarterly meeting because we're not doing a quarterly meeting and I don't know how your organization functions and I don't know what you want me to say cuz at the end of the day I'm presenting this as I feel comfortable and not suited to your organization. You know what? I'm thinking about it uh now and the best person that I have ever hired.
Um first of all, I was asking him difficult questions and stuff. It was very apparent he has knowledge. But the reason I hired him actually was that on the interview he dared to challenge me directly.
Oh yes. So I was asking him one of you know I I like difficult questions. So I was asking him something about how would you react if I give you a feedback on the back of something that was shared with me as your manager whatever and he turned around and said why would you give me feedback before check with me what actually happened and he was just I actually love that he is bold enough to challenge me because my work as a manager is not to slap you down and to show my power do the best job for my people so they can do the best job.
So this was the moment when I knew I'm going to hire this guy. So it had nothing to do with um his skills in workforce management or whatever. And to be honest currently if you don't have a knowledge I would much rather know that you know where to get for answers and how to get them rather than oh I know what formula and how it works in Excel.
So, show me and you're hired. Yep. Definitely, definitely.
And all of this can be tied to our past conversation. Um, and there are a lot of companies that are going to be searching for people that are going to be saying yes and not disobeying them. Um, which is funny to me because the nature of the role is not to be obedient.
What do you think the nature of the role is then? to provide a realistic picture of what's happening which a lot of companies kind of don't like. You know what that's another thing for everyone that wants to become a independent consultant I would say not even independent work as a consultant it's a fun thing how many companies want external expertise just to tell them that they are right and at the moment when you provide them with an actual report or a solution or to show them what's not working not only they don't trust you anymore because you're saying something different.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. They absolutely not appreciate your contribution and they probably would never work with you again.
Yep. So interesting that you're saying that the nature of the job is not to be obedient because that's what a lot of companies in fact do require. Okay.
And I've had cases like this uh even when when when consulting um I've had cases in my team when they were consulting uh the client just ask you to fix the system to match their numbers. Oh yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah.
Like why why would you want to do that? But nonetheless, because we don't look we we cannot like I cannot argue against that because probably I don't have a degree. Well, there you go.
There you go. So, food for thought for the both of us on Friday. I'll get some certificates.
You go get yourself some degree. But um actually the purpose of this conversation which we're going to leave for a third episode was to speak about BPOS and what's uh kind of happening on not only our side of the world but with BOS in general. But I think this one I would make it even a little bit more vocal.
Maybe we can create some webinar or even start creating some community that we are rating the interview process so people are prepared and they know what and how much time they have to invest slashwaste or maybe companies should start paying attention to how to conduct those um interview processes. It's funny how we started talking about BPOS or the idea of BPOS and outsourcing and the changes in the world and we ended up to certificates and degrees. Uh yeah, it it's how it is.
That's why I'm saying everyone who is ever scared to join WFM filter, I'm always saying it's not a freaking interview. It's a friendly conversation. We start probably is not going to be where we actually are and where we end.
But thank you so much for spending your Friday evening with me. Oh, it was a pleasure. It was a pleasure.
Likewise. Likewise. Despite the you've been given me for my lack of qualifications.
But uh you'll be forgiven. But stay tuned because this guy is very very good. He is amazing.
And I'll reach out to you for um potentially a webinar on the topic. But let's start let's start putting some content out there about the recruiting process from the inside not from recruiter perspective. Thanks for joining me today and my pleasure.
My pleasure. Thanks for joining us today. I am your host Mateva, founder of Right WFM, where we believe that every business and its people are unique and deserve the right solution to their challenges.
If you need support with workforce management, we are just a message away. Get in touch at arenawfm. com or info atwwfm.
com. If you like the content and would like to support the show, please subscribe to WFM Unfiltered on your favorite podcast platform. Leave a review and follow me on LinkedIn.
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So to suggest guests or topics, get in touch at arena@rightwf. com. See you.
