[Music] this is ABC News Nightline brought to you by All State president and governors declared better education for America controversial but she is also certainly popular Madonna's first four albums sold 48 million copies and Forbes Magazine calls her the top earning female Entertainer this year Madonna joins us from Los Angeles am I correct in assuming that uh if if an artist wants an album or or a record to be very popular you need to have AirPlay or usually you need to have airplay on on MTV well it's a very it's a very important marketing tool
for an artist yes so should I assume then that that you went through the ordinary process that's to say that you with with MTV in mind put together your video and and simply submitt it to their standards committee thinking it would get the clearance that it always has yes I did well you know that nud or at least your record company knows that nudity is is banned by MTV they're not going to allow any well let I'm not so sure about that because when I did my Vogue video there's a shot of me where you
can I'm wearing a see-through dress and you can clearly see my breast now they told me that they wanted me to take that out but I said I wouldn't and they they played it anyways so I thought that once again I was going to be able to bend the rules a little bit well you you certainly were bending the rules a lot more than you had in the past or did you feel that you were well within the bounds that you had been um I guess half of me thought that I was going to get
away with it and that I was going to be able to convince them and the other half thought well no you know with the wave of censorship being you know and the the conservatism that is you know sort of sweeping over the nation I I thought that it was going to be there was going to be a problem well when you say you thought you could get away with it am I right have you sort of pushed the envelope a little bit with each one with every video you've you've tried some new things if only
to be experimenting for your own reasons um well I think that's what art is all about experimenting but um it is an expression it is my artistic expression and for me a video is the filmic expression of the song you know a visual that describes what the song is about and you've got to listen to the words of the song you know it's about a woman who's talking to her lover and she's saying tell me your dreams am I in them tell me your fears are you scared tell me your story I'm not afraid of
who you are and so you know we're dealing with sexual fantasies we're fantasies and being truthful and honest with our partner you know and these feelings exist and I'm just dealing with the truth here in my video well let me tell you why I asked that because there are a lot of people in the industry who have said look this is one of the best self- marketers in the business we have never really seen anything like it and she knows how to push right to that edge and this was a win-win for you if they
put the video on you would get that kind of play and if they didn't you'd still make some money it was all in a sense a kind of publicity stunt well it it may seem like it was a publicity stunt and actually I I was very lucky but I must say I did not plan on selling this video I just went in there to shoot it and I said you know what I'm not going to think about whether it's going to get played or not I'm not going to I'm not I'm just going to do
it this is this is what I how I truly feel about this song this is how I want to express myself and when we gave it to MTV um we you know we asked them if if they would play it they came back a while later later and they said no I said is there one scene or another that you specifically object to and they said no it's the whole tone so we didn't really even have a chance to try to make it viewable they didn't they rejected it completely and so then I had to
think you know with my manager you know what next what should we do and we decided hell you know let's let's sell it let's sell it like a video Single it's you never been done before and you know the controversy just happened it wasn't planned but you know but in the end you're going wind up making even more money than you would have yeah so lucky me but the question that that I think a lot of people are concerned about is you you say you go into the into the studio and you want to illustrate
this song and and you're doing it in the way that you want but they see a kind of trend where you are pushing the limits of sexuality in this case you have nudity and you have bisexuality and you have uh apparently group sex and they're thinking that maybe you're pardon me what are you saying you're saying I'm pushing the limits of sexuality no you're pushing the limits of what's permissible that you're carrying it a little further each time and I guess what people are asking then is where is that line where do you finally say
okay this is far enough that's a good question but then I would like to address the whole issue of censorship on television where do we draw the line in general I mean you can't you can't go that far yet you you first you have to tell me where you draw the line well okay I draw the line in terms of what I think is viewable on television I draw the line where with violence and and humiliation and degradation okay and I don't think any of these issues are um are evident in in my video that's
where I draw the line that's what I don't want to see well I guess that then then one woman's art is another woman's pornography I'm thinking of the Express Yourself video I mean there are images of you chained there are images of you crawling under a table and there are a lot of people who are upset by that okay I've chained myself though okay no there wasn't a man that put that chain on me I did it myself I was chained to my desires I crawled under my own table you know there wasn't a man
standing there making me do it I do everything by my own valtion I'm in charge okay degradation or is is when somebody else is making you do something against your wishes so is okay I understand is the expression then of sexuality so long as it's two consenting adults any form of sexuality all right on television well then I would like okay first I'd like to say I don't believe in censorship of any kind but then I would like to say that I believe in labeling and I so that what I would I would believe in
some kind of you know warning label um or some kind of label that would say to adults you know after a certain hour we're allowed to you know play these kind of adult themed videos you know but then okay so I've dealt with sexuality but I also think that we should also have categories for other issues that I think are not um necessarily good for 10-year-olds to watch okay I mean I think MTV should have their you know their violence hour and I think they should have their degradation to women hour and then we could
have an hour where we deal with adult sexual themed but you know if we're going to have censorship let's not be Hypocrites about this not let's not have double standards you know I mean why is it okay for 10-year-olds to see you know some someone's body being ripped to shreds or or Sam Kennison spitting on Jessica Han why are we going to deal with these issues why is that okay why do parents not have a problem with that and but why do they have a problem with two adults you know two consenting adults displaying affection
for each other regardless of their sex madani you raised about 30 important questions and I think we ought to get get at those when we come back I only have a few minutes so we're going to come right back after we pay some bills here and we'll explore those questions in just a moment you're being factious a moment ago you said despite your concerns about violence and degradation to women maybe MTV should consider having an hour for violence and an hour that displays degradation to women despite the fact that it's broadcast right into people's homes
where their children could see it well I'm saying we already have these videos that display degradation to women and violence that are played 24 hours a day but yet they don't want to have a video playing that deals with sex between two consenting adults so I'm saying you know why where do we draw the line why is this why is this good for a 10-year-old to watch and why is it why is it and I guess I was being sarcastic you know to say look give me a chance you know let me have my slot
give me a warning label warn parents so it doesn't take them by surprise so that they have a chance to take their child away from television but also warn them about violence and warn them about you know scenes and videos that that depict degradation to women but you you know you know how very hard it is for a parent to control the child having access to TV and they sit there and they watch MTV all day long now would you if you were in that parent position and it was your 10-year-old your 11-year-old would you
not be worried about their seeing this kind of stuff well personally I wouldn't be worried about it and this is why because I think that sexuality is something that Americans would really rather just sweep up under the rug and I think that if my video provokes an open discussion you know maybe kids will go and ask their parents these questions you know if it Prov provokes an open discussion about sex with their parents I think this is a really good thing but Madonna you have to help me here when when a 10-year-old sees you chain
to the bed or sees your boyfriend bound up and another woman comes by while you're there maybe you you know you know that that's a fantasy and you know that that other people are are able to deal with all kinds of sexuality but a 10-year-old is going to get awfully confused here good then let them get confused and let them go ask their parents about it and let their parents you know explain to them that it is a sexual fantasy and that these things exist in life like they see violence okay it exists in life
it's not a pretty picture necessarily you know it's a frightening thing but it's a real ity why are we willing to deal with the realities of violence and sexism and why aren't we willing to deal with sexuality why I mean the networks won't even play ads on TV that are about condoms about birth control about practicing safe sex we're pretending like we don't have a lot of teenagers that are having sex in the world right now what why are we you know why are we subjecting ourselves to this kind of ignorance look I'll tell you
what their answer is going to be to you they're going to say you know what we really are concerned about these issues and we really are concerned that our children understand them but quite frankly it is our job to instruct our children and we don't want you on television in the kinds of ways that you're on television giving those image to our children thanks anyway well G guess what they're not doing their job because the teenage pregnancies in this country have reached you know a highest high I mean we have sophomores on high school who
are having their second babies already okay and the rate of AIDS is Raising in the heterosexual community at a really frightening rate okay so why is that these parents are not doing their jobs you know there is the question and I guess this is what you're trying to tell me about that that that that you're balancing between an artist's need for self-expression an artist's need to explore any kind of issue and and that certainly includes sexuality and the responsibility that comes along with the kind of prominence that you have and the fact that you're a
role model for people and I guess you have to wrestle with that don't you the fact that I'm a role model I have to wrestle with that well that that there is a responsibility that comes along with your position okay you know what I I I feel that I'm behaving in a very responsible way if you if you say I have a responsibility as a mainstream artist whatever I feel that I am being responsible because I am here as I said at at the beginning of the interview I'm talking about some the video is displaying
people being honest to each other about their sexuality they're not alienating anyone they're not degrading anyone it's about honesty it's about the celebration of sex there is nothing wrong with that okay and my respon that is my responsibility and I'm also very responsible because I do deal with sexuality a lot in my shows and in my music you know I promote safe sex whenever I can I put literature in my albums about birth control and using condoms I am responsible but my point really goes back to that other question and I'm not suggesting that you're
not I'm just saying that that you have to ask yourself or or do you not the question when you go into the studio or when you put on your show you want want to be able to explore these kinds of things because that's what art is but at the same time you have to reflect on what's going to be responsible so then do you say where do I draw the line or does it keep going further and further but I as I said to you before I am being responsible you know I where I draw
the line is what I said I don't believe in gratuitous violence and I don't believe in degradation you know the degradation of any human being okay and I and I would never promote those things in any of my art you've taken and I don't you've taken some heat I know and and you would like to have a chance to to talk about it from from some women who feel that that uh uh maybe you're not expressing the values that they want feminism to express all the way from way back when you wore the the belt
buckle that said boy toy to the material girl video which they feel reflects old values of women even if it was satirical to to express yourself do you have an answer to them to the feminist Fe feminist rais that kind of question well I would like to point out that they're missing a couple of things because you know I may be dressing like the uh typical bimbo whatever but I'm in charge you know I'm in charge of my fantasies I put myself in these situations with men you know and everybody knows you know in terms
of my image in the public people don't think of me as a person who's not in charge of my career or my life okay and isn't that what feminism is all about you know equality for men and women and aren't I aren't I in charge of my life doing doing the things I want to do making my own decisions I don't think anybody would question whether you're in charge of your own life I do have a last question for you what is the next sort of thing that we could be looking forward to do you
do you have it in in mind already what is you mean you want me to promote one of my products my no no I'm asking my upcoming button pushing products no no no no that's not the point the point is if you are will you continue to explore sexuality in the fashion that you have will you will you try to carry it a little further in a way that I well I don't no I can't predict what I'm going to feel artistically I don't think anyone can but it is a very important issue to me
and I'm sure I will be dealing with it more in the future I have no doubt about it you were kind to talk to us tonight Madonna thank you very very much thank you for listening to me when we come back we are going to look at some of the latest stories out of the story that we've been following for these many weeks the Persian
