You think it's not irresponsible for the president of the United States, the person with the biggest megaphone in in pretty much in the world, to say that there is voter fraud happening in California with no evidence to actually back up what he's saying? I don't think that's irresponsible. I think there's evidence and I don't think it's irresponsible.
But what evidence do you have? On CNN's LX Michaelelsson show, Brian Tyler Cohen faced off against far-right MAGA commentator Katie Zacharia in a debate that quickly became intense and highly charged. The discussion got heated fast as Katie Zacharia repeated many of the familiar MAGA talking points along with claims that critics have described as misinformation and disinformation.
We're going to break down everything that was said and take a closer look at some key moments from this exchange between Brian Tyler Cohen and Katie Zacharia. I'll also share my own thoughts along the way. So, let's dive in and watch it together.
Former Homeland Security spokesperson Katie Zachariah and Brian Tyler Cohen, host of the No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen podcast. Welcome to you both. Good to have you back with us.
Katie, are Democrats cheating? Listen, in 2019, the Tom Tom Fitton with Judicial Watch sued Los Angeles County. And what did they find?
Los Angeles County hadn't kicked anyone off their voter voter roles for over 20 years. They had to kick off 1. 5 million people off those voter roles.
1. 5 million. And in the last 7 years since that happened, 400 plus thousand people have fled Los Angeles.
So, we're relying on this faulty system that never kicked people off the voter roles to begin with to somehow now start doing it. And and look, the electoral the electoral system is broken if you have the count in a week. How do those people but the reason that the system is slow is because of signature verification to go through all of that to make sure that there isn't fraud or anything like that?
How are those people supposed to get through the system? Well, listen, you could have voter ID and same day voting and no universal mail-in ballots. If you had all of those, you would know your you know your results right away and the ID.
They've have universal mail-in ballots and by and large a lot of those ballots that come in are typically Democrat drops and and right now we're seeing and and news is is mixed. We are actually seeing a pretty stable flow of Pratt uh Ramen and and Karen Bass. However, this is something that needs to be looked at because it should not take over weeks and weeks and weeks to get this and Nithia Ramen is gaining on Pratt every day.
Today she gained 12,000 votes on him. She's now 20,000 votes behind Spencer Pratt. A couple days ago she was 40,000 votes behind.
Do you think that this is a flawed system? Look, I think that the system is working as it should. We're giving voters as much of an opportunity as we possibly can to make sure that their voices are heard.
Again, we we've heard from Katie a lot of different a lot of rhetoric about uh suggesting that something nefarious is happening, but the reality is that there is no actual evidence of widespread fraud. And in fact, Justin Levit, who is um a professor at Lyola uh Law School, did a comprehensive study spending 14 years, studied a billion ballots that were cast. They found 31 instances of voter or election fraud.
31 instances out of a billion ballots cast. If we look toward a red state, Utah, wanted to see how many undocumented immigrants were voting in that state. There's no Democrats to to gum up the works in that state.
They looked at over two million voter registrations. They found one instance of an undocumented immigrant who was on the voter roles. That person never even voted.
So, we can hear all the rhetoric in the world from Donald Trump straight on down about how Democrats are doing something nefarious, but not a single Republican can point to a single instance of widespread voter fraud in this country that would in any way change the results of these elections. Yeah. Where is the evidence?
Well, look, the the truth has nothing to fear from investigations. So, if there isn't fraud, they're not going and going to manufacture fraud. They're saying if there is something widespread and problematic about the fact that we don't get our vote totals for weeks and weeks and weeks that there's no voter ID and there's universal mail in ballots then then there's nothing that comes up wonderful.
If there is and and US attorney US attorney Billis has pointed to evidence of he he even brought it up again where he prosecuted a woman who paid people on Skid Row was it over at least 20 people to go cast ballots. Listen, 20 people is a lot if you're looking at at at people spending money to go cast votes for other people and we don't have control of our Billy said last night when he was on live with us was that there are a few instances, but he does not right now have evidence of widespread voter fraud when President Trump has been pushed or his attorneys have been pushed in court over the years. They have never been able to provide.
Right. And I think that's the difference. In court, you're you're required to tell the truth.
But when Donald Trump is out there speaking off the cuff from the Oval Office, that does not stop him at any point from suggesting that there is widespread fraud. And and this is something that he's brought up over and over and over again. But two things can be true.
One, it could be that there is not fraud and that they're in they're going through the system the way that the system is designed. But it also could be true that the system needs some reformation. And maybe it isn't a good thing that your ballot can be postmarked on election day and can be received for days after election day.
Maybe it isn't a a good thing uh that you can drop off your ballot, vote by mail on the day of the election. Maybe it should be a few days before that. I mean, there are things that other states do that speed up their count.
Do you think that's worth the trade-off? I think it's worth a conversation, but the reality is that it's really important not to conflate the system working as it was intended to work, which is a slow system because we give voters as much time as humanly possible to make sure that their voices are heard. And frankly, I think that's more important than getting it done as quick as possible because there's no difference really from having an answer yesterday versus tomorrow.
I mean, the the the election results are going to be the election results. And I I personally think it's more important to give uh Americans as much of an opportunity to have their voices heard in these elections as we possibly can. Do you think, Katie, that some of the president's language on this is irresponsible and and creates um a distrust in the system and actually hurts Republicans and may stop them from voting?
I I absolutely don't. I absolutely agree that this needs to be looked at. Look, I went to go vote and by who.
This needs to be looked at and ensured that the system is secure. There's no other country in the world that has this electoral and election system like we have. Everybody knows day of who won except California, United States, and particularly Los Angeles.
And so what is broken with the system, whether it should be same day voting, whether you should have voter ID, but I don't think it's irresponsible of him. And I think putting a US attorney on it who's who is going to do everything by the law and look at it very closely should say to everyone, it's the same thing with regular fraud. We want this to be blown open.
We don't want to uh we don't want to cover up fraud because it hurts people. So if there is a broken election system, if we have inactive voters on our voter roles and somehow those ballots are being cast in their name even though they've moved to Texas or Florida or any of the other states that people fled to, we want to know about it and that should be a unified agreement. Like we don't want voter.
Katie Zakaria follows what many describe as the MAGA style of debating where instead of directly engaging with the facts presented by the other side, she pushes back with familiar talking points. In this case, Brian Tyler Cohen brought up research that has been referenced before, including largecale studies examining over a billion ballots that found virtually no statistical evidence of widespread voter fraud. In the rare cases where something unusual is flagged, it often turns out to be a simple mistake rather than intentional fraud and in some instances even confirmed cases involve individuals from different political backgrounds.
The larger point being made is that these claims are often used to create doubt and add extra barriers to voting. MAGA supporters like Katie Zakaria often argue about concerns such as not knowing results on election night or delays in counting votes, but Cohen challenges that by asking what real difference it makes if results take an extra day or two to finalize. The deeper issue in this debate is the push from MAGA aligned voices for restricting voting to a single day, usually Tuesday in the United States, which can make it harder for many working people to participate since elections are not held on weekends when more people are free.
Critics argue that limiting voting access tends to reduce overall turnout and in a country that already struggles with low participation, that can shift outcomes. The argument presented is that higher turnout generally benefits Democrats while lower turnout tends to benefit Republicans and MAGA aligned candidates, which is why policies that limit voting access are often seen as politically motivated. You don't think it's you think it's not irresponsible for the president of the United States, the person with the biggest megaphone in in pretty much in the world to say that there is voter fraud happening in California with no evidence to actually back up what he's saying?
I don't think that's irresponsible. I think there's evidence and I don't think it's irresponsible. But what evidence do you have?
I' I've named some and I'm sure you said that voter roles haven't been cleaned up. But that's not the same as widespread voter fraud if you are not regulating who's going to the ballot box. You are going to inherently get unfair unfair demographic.
Look, Democrats by and large surge Raman has come up a ton in these last ballot drops because those are mailin ballots and those are disproportionately and overwhelmingly used by Democrat voters because Donald Trump a lot of Republicans. No, the reality is Donald Trump has denigrated mail-in voting and so that's why Democrats are more likely to use it than Republicans. He reversed course and it's a big part of why he won in 2024 is because he said vote early.
I mean he he understood that this was an important he still raises questions about mail and ballots all [laughter] executive order trying to ban it and many members of the party are frustrated by that because it he they have said that it sometimes hurts them until you can pass legislation either on a federal level which will be the save America act and and then you can also add in no paper ballot or only paper ballot same day voting voter ID and you also institute that statewide. You have you have city councilmen in Los Angeles trying to push for illegal aliens being able to vote in our elections. This has happened in Oakland and in San Francisco with city council meetings and and if you need to prove you are a valid citizen.
That is a fundamental part of being in a sovereign country. No other country in the world, at least a first world country, doesn't have voter ID. Again, I I I brought up the example where Republicans in the fully red state of Utah uh went over this.
They found a single instance of an undocumented immigrant who was registered to vote and that person never even cast a ballot. So, this has been adjudicated. in terms of illegal immigrants voting.
That is for things like schoolboard elections. It is illegal for them to vote in any federal elections and certainly for president. Just to put that out there.
So, it's really that MAGA is often described as focusing on solving problems that critics say do not actually exist at a meaningful level. And some people even feel that saying it is solving problems gives it too much credit. For years, the idea of voter fraud has been repeated again and again as a central message.
and Donald Trump is often seen by critics as the main figure pushing this narrative. From that point of view, it is argued that this focus is actually used to make voting harder for certain groups of people in a country where voter turnout is already fairly low and that this can make it even more difficult for people to participate. It is also argued that this kind of system can shape political outcomes in a way that helps a candidate like Donald Trump.
And some people believe that if voter turnout was very high, like 80 or 90%, then he might never have become president. In this view, MAGA understands that making voting more difficult can affect results, while others argue for making voting easier and more accessible, like Brian Tyler Cohen, who supports easier voting while still keeping it legal and secure and free from fraud. And he says there is evidence that this can be done.
At the same time, there's a broader debate about how facts and opinions are treated in media, where people like Alex Michaelelsson are seen as handling discussions fairly, while others like Brian Tyler Cohen are seen as presenting fact-based arguments, and critics say some other commentators respond without real evidence and only say it is just opinion. This creates what many call a post-fact environment where misinformation and factual arguments can sometimes be treated as equal even when people believe they are not equal. Critics argue that some political commentators continue to spread misleading ideas about the voting system especially in debates on major news platforms while others argue that these claims should be challenged with facts.
In the end, this whole issue around voting rights, election security, and political messaging remains very divisive, and audiences are left to decide which arguments they find more believable and closer to reality. But let me know your thoughts in the comments.
