Women and Religion

REGULAR VIEWERS OF THE AGENDA KNOW THAT WE OFTEN DISCUSS RELIGION. AFTER WE'VE HAD THOSE DISCUSSIONS, VIEWERS HAVE ASKED THAT MORE ATTENTION BE GIVEN TO HOW DIFFERENT ORGANIZED RELIGIONS TREAT WOMEN, AND SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO TONIGHT. HERE TO HELP US DO THAT, IN REGINA, SASKATCHEWAN, VIA SKYPE, BRENDA ANDERSON, PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENTS OF RELIGIOUS STUDIES AND WOMEN'S GENDER STUDIES AT THE UNIVERSITY OF REGINA.

IN WATERLOO, ONTARIO, VIA SKYPE, DORIS JAKOBSH, PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF RELIGIOUS STUDIES AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WATERLOO. AND WITH US IN STUDIO, WE HAVE MARION TAYLOR, PROFESSOR OF OLD TESTAMENT AT UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO'S WYCLIFFE COLLEGE. AND SAFIAH CHOWDHURY, FOUNDING MEMBER OF OUTBURST!

, AN ORGANIZATION THAT IS WORKING ON BUILDING OPPORTUNITIES FOR MUSLIM YOUNG WOMEN AND GIRLS. WE WANT TO START BY HELPING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE ROLE OF WOMEN IN MAJOR RELIGIONS AROUND THE WORLD. I KNOW IT'S DIFFICULT TO DESCRIBE THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN JUST A FEW SENTENCES.

BUT, BRENDA, CAN YOU BRIEFLY DESCRIBE THE DIVERSITY OF WOMEN'S INTERACTIONS WITH HINDUISM? WELL, OF COURSE THERE'S A WIDE DIVERSITY, AND I THINK WE'LL ALL USE THAT DISCLAIMER. WOMEN ARE TYPICALLY UNDERSTOOD IN A COMPLEMENTARITY ROLE, OF EQUAL VALUE TO THE MALE, PARTICULARLY IN THE EARLY VEDIC AGE, WHEN BOTH MALE AND FEMALE WERE REQUIRED TO FULFILL THE HOME RITUALS, AND PLAY HOST AND HOSTESS TO THE DIVINE MASCULINE AND FEMININE ENERGY.

THAT'S SORT OF THE IDEAL. ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SPECTRUM, WE DO HAVE INSTANCES OF SATI, WHICH IS WIDOW BURNING ON THE HUSBAND'S FUNERAL PYRE. SO THERE'S A WIDE VARIATION AND DISCREPANCY WITHIN THAT UMBRELLA TERM OF HINDUISM.

AND MARION WHAT IS THE SPECTRUM OF WOMEN'S ROLES IN CHRISTIANITY? WELL, I WOULD SAY THERE'S A SIMILAR SPECTRUM ACROSS THE CHURCH. ON THE RIGHT WOULD BE THOSE CHURCHES THAT WOULD RESTRICT WOMEN'S ROLES IN TERMS OF ORDINATION, LEADERSHIP ROLES IN THE CHURCH, AND--AND CERTAINLY SOMETIMES IN THE HOME ALSO.

AND THEN ON--ON THE OTHER SIDE WOULD BE THOSE WHO SAY MEN AND WOMEN ARE FULLY EQUAL AND ARE--WOMEN, THERE ARE NO RESTRICTIONS ON WOMEN'S ROLES. AND THAT CERTAINLY IS TRUE MORE AND MORE IN THE RECENT--IN RECENT YEARS. THAT WOMEN, CERTAINLY IN THE ANGLICAN CHURCH OF CANADA, WOMEN HAVE BEEN ORDAINED AS PRIESTS AND DEACONS AND NOW BISHOPS.

SO ALL--ALL WOMEN WOULD BE OPEN TO HOLD ANY POSITION IN THE CHURCH. SO THERE IS A WIDE SPECTRUM WITHIN CHRISTIANITY ON THAT ISSUE TOO. OKAY, IT SEEMS TO BE A THEME, THE SPECTRUM.

MARION: YES, UN HUH. DORIS, WHAT SHOULD WE KNOW, HOW SIKHISM INTERACTS WITH WOMEN? WELL, I'D HAVE TO REPEAT A WHOLE LOT OF WHAT'S BEEN SAID ALREADY.

YOU HAVE A WIDE DIVERGENCE. THERE'S ALSO ONE WAY TO LOOK AT IT IF ONE LOOKS AT THE TEXTS AND IF ONE LOOKS AT THE LIVING PRACTICES. SO IN--OF COURSE THERE'S THIS DIVERSITY ISSUE.

YOU HAVE CERTAIN GROUPS WITHIN THE SIKH TRADITION, SOME WOULD CALL THEM SECTS, THAT HAVE WOMEN IN ALL AREAS OF WORSHIP, IN SINGING KIRTAN, INVOLVED IN RITUAL LIFE. AND THEN YOU HAVE OTHERS THAT BECAUSE OF SAY, MENSTRUAL TABOOS, WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE PART IN CERTAIN RITUALS. SO, AND THEN--AND THEN THERE'S THE MAINSTREAM, WHERE WOMEN, AT LEAST TEXTURALLY, WOULD BE ALLOWED TO PLAY IMPORTANT ROLES IN TERMS OF THE RITUAL LIFE.

BUT THE PRACTICE OF THAT WOULDN'T SUPPORT THOSE, UM, SORT OF CODES OF CONDUCT. SO WOMEN WOULD NOT BE SEEN IN SORT OF RITUAL ROLES, EVEN THOUGH ACCORDING TO THE CODE OF CONDUCT THEY COULD BE IN THOSE RITUAL ROLES. AND SAFIAH, CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE DIVERSITY OF WOMEN'S RELATIONSHIP WITH ISLAM?

SURE, YEAH. I MEAN, AGAIN, TO ECHO THE THREE OTHER WOMEN, IT'S A SPECTRUM. AND I THINK THAT SPECTRUM EXISTS PRESENTLY, BUT ALSO KIND OF ACROSS HISTORICAL TRENDS.

SO, I MEAN IN ISLAM WE BASE UPON--BASE OUR PRACTICE AND BASE OUR BELIEFS AND BASE A LOT OF THE WAY WE SHOULD ENGAGE WITH THE WORLD ON THE EARLY TRADITION, FROM THE QURAN AND THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHET [INAUDIBLE]. AND FROM THAT EARLY TRADITION WE SEE A GREATER SPACE MADE FOR WOMEN, WHICH I THINK HAS SLOWLY DEGENERATED POTENTIALLY OVER TIME, MORE SO I THINK EXASPERATED FOR OUR CURRENT PERIOD. I WOULD SAY IN THE LAST FEW HUNDRED YEARS.

AND SO, BUT THERE IS A RECLAMATION OCCURRING IN MANY SPACES. SO YOU HAVE WOMEN WHO KIND OF FIGHT FOR THAT EQUAL SPACE AND THAT EQUAL SAY. AND THEN THERE'S ALSO THE BELIEF THAT WOMEN SHOULD TAKE A MORE BACKSEAT ROLE.

SO THAT SPECTRUM I THINK EXISTS AT A CONTEMPORARY LEVEL, BUT ALSO FROM A HISTORICAL LENS AS WELL. I WANTED TO POSE THIS TO YOU, BRENDA. CAN YOU GIVE US A QUICK DEFINITION OF PATRIARCHY?

OH, OKAY, SURE. UH, WELL I THINK PROBABLY WE SHOULD START BY SAYING IT'S A SOCIAL ORDERING OR CONSTRUCTION THAT PLACES MORE VALUE ON MEN AS BEING SUPERIOR AND HAVING MORE AUTHORITY THAN WOMEN. THEY'RE SEEN AS BEING SECONDARY OR DERIVATIVE.

AND IT'S OFTEN TOUTED AS THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS. SO, IF YOU'RE TALKING FROM A RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVE, THIS IS WHAT GOD WANTS OF US, AND THIS IS HOW WE WERE DESIGNED. AND IT'S BASED ON A HIERARCHY OF GOD SPEAKING TO MEN AND THEN WOMEN CAN'T REALLY ACCESS THE DIVINE, OTHER THAN THROUGH MEN.

SO IT'S ABOUT POWER AND SOCIAL ORDERING. SCIENCE CAN USE PATRIARCHAL LENSES AS WELL AND SAY THAT THEY CAN PROVE MEN ARE SUPERIOR, BUT OF COURSE, AGAIN, IT'S A SOCIAL CONSTRUCTION AND ORDERING. AND WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT THEN OUR ORDER--OUR SYSTEMS OF GOVERNANCE, OF FAMILIAL, SOCIAL, POLITICAL, AND RELIGIOUS, CAN BE USED TO SUPPORT THAT IDEOLOGY.

SO, IN GENERAL, DO YOU THINK THAT RELIGION HAS A PATRIARCHY PROBLEM? ABSOLUTELY. A LOT OF FEMINISTS WITHIN FAITH TRADITIONS WILL ARGUE THAT THE IDEAL MESSAGES ARE EGALITARIAN AND THAT'S WHY THEY REVOLUTIONIZED THE WORLD AND MANY, MANY WOMEN FOLLOWED AND CONTINUED TO FOLLOW THE FAITH.

BUT THAT OVER TIME, LIKE IT WAS SAID, THAT THERE'S A DEGENERATION AND THAT PATRIARCHY IS INSTITUTED OR RE-INSTITUTED. SO IT COMES INTO QUESTION OF, WHO HAS THE AUTHORITY TO INTERPRET THE IDEALS, WHICH MIGHT BE SCRIPTURES OR RITUALS, DEPENDING ON THE RELIGION. AND MARION, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I--YES, I THINK THAT'S A VERY HELPFUL WAY OF TALKING ABOUT PATRIARCHY. BUT IT'S INTERESTING IN THE MOST RECENT LITERATURE ON ANCIENT CULTURE, LIKE ANCIENT ISRAEL FOR EXAMPLE, THAT SCHOLARS ARE NOW USING THE TERM, HETERARCHY, RATHER THAN PATRIARCHY TO DESCRIBE OLD TESTAMENT CULTURE FOR EXAMPLE. BECAUSE THERE ARE MULTIPLE HIERARCHIES, NOT JUST THOSE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN.

AND THAT IS WHAT, WHEN YOU READ THE STORIES OF WOMEN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, IT'S--THEY'RE NOT ALL THE SAME. AND THEY DON'T ALL REFLECT A STRONGLY PATRIARCHAL SITUATION. AND SO OFTEN YOU GET HIERARCHIES WITHIN WOMEN'S LIVES FOR EXAMPLE.

AND SO IT'S NOT JUST GENDER BUT AGE, AND CULTURE, AND RELIGION ALSO PLAY INTO THIS. SO IT'S--SOMETIMES, UM, IT'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN SIMPLY SAYING IT'S A PATRIARCHAL CULTURE. BECAUSE A FRIEND OF--IF YOU ASKED STUDENTS FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT'S PATRIARCHY, THEY'LL TALK ABOUT IT IN, YOU KNOW, WOMEN ARE ALL SUBMISSIVE.

AND THEN YOU READ THE STORIES ABOUT DEBORAH BEING A JUDGE OR SARAH BOSSING ABRAHAM AROUND. AND YOU THINK, WELL THIS IS A DIFFERENT PORTRAIT OF WOMEN. SO IT--WE HAVE TO BE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT IT'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN JUST SAYING, WELL, ALL THE TEXTS COME FROM A PATRIARCHAL CULTURE.

IT'S MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT. BUT WHAT ABOUT NOW, UM, YOU STILL HAVE CERTAIN RELIGIONS WHERE WOMEN CAN'T BE AT THE TOP OF THE CHURCH. RIGHT.

OR THEY CAN'T RUN THE ORGANIZATION. MARION: RIGHT. ISN'T THAT STILL A GENDER DIVIDE?

YEAH, THERE ARE--THERE ARE STILL THOSE PROBLEMS, CERTAINLY IN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH AND CERTAINLY DIFFERENT CHURCHES. LIKE, DIFFERENT--WITHIN THE SPECTRUM, IT'S MORE OR LESS A PROBLEM IN THE CHURCH. BUT I THINK HISTORICALLY, LIKE THE QUESTION IS, IS THE CULTURE OUT OF WHICH THE RELIGIOUS TEXT CAME, IS THAT A CULTURE WE NEED TO HANG ON TO?

AND I WOULDN'T WANT TO SEPARATE THAT, TO SAY THAT THE CULTURE OF THE OLD TESTAMENT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO REPRISTINATE, RIGHT? THAT YOU CAN MOVE FORWARD. AND CERTAINLY INTERPRETERS THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE--HAVE SEEN THE TEXTS THEMSELVES AS CHALLENGING PATRIARCHY.

AND SEEING OTHER VISIONS OF HOW THE WORLD MIGHT BE ORGANIZED WITHIN TEXTS. AND THEN THEY RUN WITH THAT. AND WOMEN ESPECIALLY, I THINK, HAVE--HAVE DONE SO MUCH TO CHANGE THE WAY, TO CHALLENGE CULTURES AND PATRIARCHY, ESPECIALLY THE SYSTEMS THAT ARE OPPRESSIVE TO WOMEN.

AND, YEAH, SO IT'S NOT--YOU CAN'T USE A BLANKET STATEMENT TO SAY IT'S ALL PATRIARCHY AND ALL BAD, BECAUSE THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF MORE COMPLEX THINGS GOING ON THAT, OF GENDER, RACE, AGE, AND ALL OF THESE THINGS ALSO TIE INTO ALL OF--TO THE TERM HETERARCHY, WHICH MAYBE IS MORE HELPFUL. DORIS, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF WHAT'S BEEN SAID SO FAR? I WOULD AGREE WITH A LOT OF IT.

I THINK ISSUES LIKE CLASS ALSO NEED TO BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION. WHEN YOU LOOK AT, UM, IN--IN MY WORK, SOME OF THE REALLY INTERESTING THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING WHERE SIKH WOMEN FOR INSTANCE, A SMALL GROUP, ARE WEARING TURBANS. AND, AS A SIGN OF SORT OF SIKHISM BEING EGALITARIAN.

AND, BUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE IS THAT COMING FROM? IT'S COMING FROM A PARTICULAR AGE GROUP, PARTICULAR UNIVERSITY WOMEN'S GROUPS. AND THEN NOT EXCLUSIVELY OF COURSE, BUT--AND SO WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT UNIVERSITY, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT EDUCATION, THEN--THEN YOU HAVE ISSUES OF CLASS THAT COME INTO IT.

CERTAINLY, IN PUNJAB, THE HEARTLAND OF SIKHISM, WOMEN DON'T WEAR TURBANS. AND SO IT'S VERY MUCH A DIASPORIC KIND OF A PHENOMENON, WHICH I FIND REALLY FASCINATING IN TERMS OF SORT OF COMING TO AN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS INCREDIBLE COMPLEXITY. BUT, YEAH, THERE'S--THE WHOLE NOTION OF--OF--OF, UH, LAYERS OF PRIVILEGE, PATRIARCHY BEING ONE OF THEM.

HOWEVER, I WOULD SAY THAT PATRIARCHY AS A LENS STILL MUST BE UPHELD. IF WE JUST LOOK AT SCRIPTURE, IF WE LOOK AT RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS, UM, IT'S MEN. IT'S MEN RUNNING THE SHOW.

IT'S MEN THAT HAVE INTERPRETED THE SCRIPTURES. MEN WROTE THE SCRIPTURES. AND VERY MUCH OFTEN IN LINE WITH A MALE NOTION OF GOD.

AND SAFIAH, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO SEE YOUR HIJAB AS SOME KIND OF--AS A FORM OF OPPRESSION? WELL, JUST TO KIND OF GO BACK TO THE EARLIER QUESTION OF WHETHER RELIGION HAS A PATRIARCH. THE PROBLEM THAT I THINK THAT THE REFRAMING OUGHT TO BE THAT PATRIARCHY IS A PROBLEM.

THAT IT'S KIND OF INSIDIOUS AND ITS WAY--ITS ABILITY TO KIND OF SEEP INTO PEOPLE'S LIVED REALITIES AND LIVED EXPERIENCE. AND IT UTILIZES WHATEVER TOOLS IS AT ITS DISPOSAL, BE THAT RELIGION, BE THAT IMPERIALISM, OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE IN. WE SEE--WE KNOW IN A LOT OF ANTI-COLONIAL RESISTANCE, RELIGION WAS KIND OF USED AS A WAY FOR WOMEN TO--TO EXPRESS THEIR RESISTANCE.

AND WE SEE THAT IN NORTH AFRICA AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS. SO RELIGION-- HOW SO? SO WHEN THE FRENCH FIRST ARRIVED IN NORTH AFRICA FOR EXAMPLE THEY REQUIRED THAT WOMEN DE-VEIL, BECAUSE THERE WAS THIS--THIS VIEW OF BEING ABLE TO GAZE UPON--UPON THE WOMEN, AND YOU KNOW HAVE ACCESS TO HER BODY.

BUT THE UPPER CLASS WOMEN IN FACT USED TO COVER THEIR FACES AND EVERYTHING AS A SIGN--I MEAN FOR THEM THAT WAS A SIGN OF WEALTH. AND SO WHEN--WHEN THE FRENCH CAME IN AND THEY REQUIRED THAT THE WOMEN AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE SUBMIT TO THE FRENCH, THE WOMEN REFUSED AND SAID, NO, WE ARE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ELITE NORTH AFRICAN WOMEN AND WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE ON OUR PRACTICES. AND SO VEILING AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS WAS ACTUALLY AN ACT OF RESISTANCE TO KIND OF COLONIAL POWERS.

AND THEN THERE--THERE'S INSTANCES WHERE, ONCE THEY WERE KIND OF SUBJECT TO THE FRENCH POWERS, THE WOMEN WERE STRIPPED OF ALL THEIR CLOTHING AND ONLY THEIR EYES WERE COVERED, KIND OF IN A REVERSE ROLE. SUCH THAT BEFORE THE WOMEN--THE MEN--THE WOMEN COULD SEE THE MEN AND THE MEN COULD NOT SEE ANYTHING BUT THEIR EYES. BUT IN THIS NEW ROLE MEN COULD SEE EVERYTHING BUT THEIR EYES.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S--RELIGION IS USED, I THINK AS A TOOL, AND WE SEE THE--WE SEE KIND OF FRENCH COLONIZERS WHO WERE NOT MUSLIM, USING THE REVERSE VEIL, REVERSE VEIL SO TO SPEAK, TO SHOW--TO SUBJUGATE WOMEN. AND IT'S NOT NECESSARILY MUSLIMS WHO ARE DOING THAT. BUT IT'S JUST ABOUT HOW--HOW TOOLS--HOW RELIGION IS BEING USED AS A TOOL TO KIND OF ADVANCE WHATEVER--WHATEVER KIND OF HIERARCHY OR KIND OF POWER.

WELL, I MEAN IN THE PAST ELECTION THE NIQAB AND THE HIJAB WERE--THEY WERE VERY DECISIVE ELEMENTS THAT WERE USED DURING THE ELECTION. MM HMM. AS SOMEBODY WHO WEARS A HIJAB, ARE YOU OPPRESSED?

[CHUCKLES] YES. UH, NO, I AM NOT OPPRESSED. IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

I MEAN OF COURSE--I'M NOT OPPRESSED BY MY HIJAB SO TO SPEAK. YOU KNOW THERE--I THINK GENERALLY THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE CHALLENGING IN BEING A WOMAN, THAT'S IRRESPECTIVE OUTSIDE OF THE DOMAIN OF RELIGION. BUT MY HIJAB, THIS PIECE OF CLOTH THAT I WEAR, IS NOT REALLY OPPRESSIVE BY ANY MEANS.

AND IT'S FOREMOST GROUNDED FOR ME IN CHOICE. AND I KNOW THAT'S NOT OFFERED TO ALL WOMEN. MANY WOMEN ARE NOT--DO NOT CHOOSE TO WEAR OUT OF CHOICE.

MANY--YOU KNOW, A FEW ARE FORCED TO AND ARE REQUIRED TO DO IT FROM, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER FACTORS. BUT I THINK FOR A LOT OF WOMEN IT'S--AND I KNOW A LOT OF WOMEN, AND I EVEN PERSONALLY STARTED WEARING IT KIND OF AS A POLITICAL STATEMENT, TO SHOW IN A POST 9/11 WORLD, YOU KNOW, THAT WE'RE HERE, WE'RE KIND OF NORMAL. IT'S ALL GOOD, DON'T BE AFRAID.

AND THEN--BUT I ACTUALLY THINK THAT THIS FOCUS ON THE HIJAB AS A POLITICAL--AS A POLITICAL EXPRESSION, OR AS A POLITICAL ISSUE, OR CONSTANTLY COMING UP IN POLITICAL DISCOURSE, TAKES AWAY ACTUALLY FROM THE FUNDAMENTAL VALUE OF WEARING IT, WHICH IS FOR ME SPIRITUAL. AND SO KIND OF IN MY LATTER YEARS I'VE BEEN TRYING TO REALLY EXPLORE THAT. WHY DO I WEAR IT?

AND I WEAR IT FOREMOST BECAUSE OF HOW I UNDERSTAND MY RELATIONSHIP TO GOD. BUT THIS CONSTANT FIXATION ON IT REALLY IMPACTS MY ABILITY TO CONE IN AND TRULY UNDERSTAND THAT SPIRITUAL CONNECTION, BECAUSE I'M SO OFTEN FORCED TO ARTICULATE IT IN POLITICAL WAYS. WHICH I THINK, ACTUALLY IS--IS STIFLING.

SO IT'S MORE SO THE DISCOURSE AROUND THE HIJAB, THE DISCOURSE AROUND VEILING, THE DISCOURSE AROUND MUSLIM WOMEN, THAT IS PROBABLY MORE OPPRESSIVE THAN ACTUALLY BEING A MUSLIM WOMAN WHO VEILS. I WANTED TO ASK ONE OF THE OTHER WOMEN, WHY DO--MAYBE BRENDA, LIKE WHY ARE WE SO FIXATED ON THE HIJAB? WELL, I PLACE IT SQUARELY ON WHO HAS THE POWER OF THE GAZE.

AND, YOU KNOW IN OUR DAILY LIVES OR IN MEDIA REPRESENTATIONS OR WHAT HAVE YOU. I THINK THAT THROUGHOUT CULTURE AND THROUGHOUT HISTORY THERE'S A FASCINATION WITH THE FEMALE BODY, PARTICULARLY FROM HETEROSEXUAL MEN, WHO THEY HAVE THAT POWER TO DIRECT THE LENS IN PARTICULAR WAYS. SO I GUESS I WOULD KIND OF COUNTER THAT QUESTION WITH, WHY ARE WE SO FASCINATED WITH WOMEN IN BIKINIS IN THE WEST, RIGHT?

IT HAS TO DO WITH CONTROL OF FEMALE BODIES. AND, YOU KNOW, IN THE COLONIALIST TIMES IN THE 1900S WHEN FILMING WAS CAPTURING THE FASCINATION IN THE WEST, MUSLIM WOMEN WERE DEPICTED AS HAREMS, THE FREE SEXUAL LIFESTYLE, THE DANCE OF THE SEVEN VEILS. AND THERE WAS A TITILLATION FACTOR ABOUT HOW THEY DIDN'T DRESS VERY MUCH, COMPARED TO THE EUROPEAN WOMEN WITH THE CORSETS AND, YOU KNOW, SHOWING THE ANKLE WAS SOMETHING TITILLATING HERE IN THE WEST.

AND NOW, YOU KNOW, 2016, WE'RE WORRIED THAT MUSLIN WOMEN ARE BEING COVERED TOO MUCH. THAT, AGAIN, WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE OTHER. SO I GUESS I TALK ABOUT, IN MY CLASSES, PROJECTION OF OUR OWN DISCOMFORT AROUND THE FEMALE BODY, AROUND SEXUALITY AND WHAT THAT MEANS.

AND THAT CAN BE DIRECTED BACK TO HOW SCRIPTURAL STORIES, ORIGIN STORIES, PLAY OUT AND CREATE THAT BINARY WHERE THE MASCULINE IS EQUATED WITH THE SPIRITUAL RATIONAL AND THE FEMALE IS EQUATED WITH MATERIAL-- UH, CERTAINLY IN THE JUDEO CHRISTIAN AND THEN ISLAMIC. NOT NECESSARILY ORIGINALLY, BUT IN THAT TRADITION AS WELL, EQUATED WITH THE FALL OR THE SIN. AND, SO WHEN YOU HAVE THAT EITHER-OR KIND OF WORLD, WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT WOMEN'S BODIES AS TEMPTATION, SOMETHING THAT KEEPS US AWAY FROM THE DIVINE.

SO I THINK IT HAS TO DO MORE WITH WHO HAS THE POWER TO--TO NAME THE STORY. AND DORIS--OH, SORRY, GO AHEAD. DORIS.

I JUST--I THINK THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT IS SO IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND. I'M--I'M JUST REMINDED OF HODA SHAARAWI IN EGYPT IN THE 1920S, WHO WAS THE HEAD OF THE EGYPTIAN FEMINIST UNION. AND AS A POLITICAL STATEMENT SHE TOOK OFF HER HIJAB, MAKING THIS A SORT OF PUBLIC, POLITICAL, FEMINIST STATEMENT.

IT WAS IN THE NAME OF FEMINIST. IT WAS CALLED THE FEMINIST UNION. AND SO IT'S JUST VERY INTERESTING TO LOOK AT THE VARIOUS TIMELINES, WHEN THESE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT, WHY THEY'RE IMPORTANT.

POST 9/11, THE SITUATION HAS CHANGED FOR SO MANY MINORITY GROUPS. IT WAS A SIKH MAN WHO WAS FIRST SORT OF, A VICTIM OF--OF--OF--OF MURDER IN POST 9/11 BECAUSE HE WAS MISTAKEN, YOU KNOW, AS A MUSLIM. I MEAN, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF HE WAS MUSLIM OR SIKH, THE FACT WAS THAT IT WAS BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGION.

IT WAS BECAUSE OF HIS OUTWARD, UM, PRESENTATION, HIS TURBAN THAT--THAT--THAT HE--THAT HE WAS KILLED. AND--AND SO I THINK IT--IT'S THE TIMELINE THAT NEEDS TO BE, YOU KNOW, PUT INTO PERSPECTIVE. WHY ARE PEOPLE WEARING HIJABS?

WHY ARE PEOPLE SEEMINGLY TO BE FOCUSING IN SOME WAYS MORE ON THEIR RELIGIOUS IDENTITIES, UM, AND PHYSICAL REPRESENTATION THEREOF, IN A POST-9/11 WORLD? I THINK THAT THAT'S REALLY FASCINATING. SAFIAH, DID YOU WANT TO ADD ANYTHING TO THAT?

YEAH, AND I ALSO--I GENERALLY THINK THAT A LOT OF THE DISCOURSE AROUND, OH, THERE'S NO CHOICE INVOLVED IN DRESS OR THAT IT'S A KIND OF A SIGN OF PATRIARCHY, OR SOMETIMES I'VE BEEN ACCUSED OF INTERNALIZED PATRIARCHY, AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS, AND JUST GENERALLY OPPRESSION. NAM: OH, BECAUSE YOU'RE WEARING A HIJAB. YES, AND I DEFEND MY CHOICE TO WEAR IT, AND PEOPLE RESPOND SOMETIMES.

WE'LL YOU'VE INTERNALIZED THAT PATRIARCHY. AND I ACTUALLY FIND THAT ARGUMENTATION TO BE INCREDIBLY INFANTALIZING. IT--IT ASSUMES JUST BECAUSE I'M A WOMAN AND I CHOOSE TO DO SOMETHING THAT-- NAM: THAT A MAN TOLD YOU TO DO, RIGHT?

YEAH, THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT I DON'T HAVE ANY OF THAT AGENCY MYSELF. AND SO IT'S KIND OF THIS--THIS STRANGE EXPRESSION OF FEMINISM THAT I FIND OFTENTIMES THEN LEAVES A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT AND THEN MAKES US THE CHILDREN WHO CAN'T ACTIVELY USE OUR MINDS BECAUSE WE DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN WHAT SOMEONE ELSE CONSIDERS TO BE ACCEPTABLE. MARION, I WANT TO POSE THIS NEXT QUESTION TO YOU.

THERE ARE PASSAGES AND SACRED TEXTS LIKE THE BIBLE, THAT DON'T SEEM CONSISTENT WITH OUR CURRENT UNDERSTANDING OF GENDER EQUALITY. DOES THAT REINFORCE THE INEQUALITY THAT WE SEE IN SOME FAITHS? WOW!

UM, YES, THERE--THERE ARE SOME DIFFICULT TEXTS IN THE BIBLE THAT WOULD SUGGEST WOMEN'S ROLE SHOULD BE--THAT WOMEN'S ROLES ARE RESTRICTED. AND, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S A VERSE THAT SAYS WOMEN SHOULDN'T TEACH, RIGHT? OR WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THEIR HEADS COVERED.

OR WOMEN SHOULD HAVE CERTAIN ROLES. AND THE PROB--THE QUESTION, UM, ALWAYS IS, HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THOSE VERSES IN LIGHT OF THE WHOLE MESSAGE OF SCRIPTURE, AND OTHER TEXTS, THAT CLEARLY SAY THAT WOMEN ARE TEACHING? SO, THAT'S THE CHALLENGE OF AND THE INTERESTING PART OF THE HISTORY OF THE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE.

IT'S WHICH VERSES GET FORE FRONTED, AND WHICH VERSES GET--BECOME THE LENS THROUGH WHICH OTHER VERSES ARE READ? SO FOR CHURCHES THAT SAY WOMEN AND MEN ARE EQUAL SPIRITUALLY AND EQUAL IN MANY WAYS, BUT WE RESTRICT THEIR ROLES AND WOMEN CAN'T PREACH, AND WOMEN CAN'T HAVE LEADERSHIP OVER MEN OR TEACH MEN, THEY ARE USING A SMALL NUMBER OF VERSES AS THE LENS THROUGH WHICH THEY READ ALL THE OTHER TEXTS. INCLUDING TEXTS ABOUT JESUS, THE STORY OF MARY AND MARTHA, WHEN MARTHA IS WANTING HER SISTER TO HELP OUT IN THE KITCHEN AND MARY IS SITTING AT JESUS' FEET, JESUS BEING THE RABBI.

AND JESUS IS ENCOURAGING THAT. AND JESUS SAYS TO MARY, "YOU HAVE CHOSEN A BETTER PART. " WELL THAT'S A REVOLUTIONARY STORY, AND ONE THAT SHOWS THAT JESUS IS COUNTER-CULTURAL AND--AND SAYS THAT WOMEN CAN DO THINGS LIKE THIS.

SO, THE QUESTION IS ALWAYS--I THINK THE--A BETTER--THE BEST WAY TO INTERPRET TEXTS THAT HAVE DIFFICULT VERSES IS YOU INTERPRET THE CLEAR--THE UNCLEAR IN LIGHT OF THE CLEAR. AND SO WHEN THERE ARE VERSES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT SAYS, YOU KNOW, "THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, SLAVE NOR FREE, MALE NOR FEMALE," THAT CAN BECOME A LENS THROUGH WHICH YOU READ MORE DIFFICULT TEXTS. AND SO--SO THE CHALLENGE IN--IN--IN, UM, FAITH TRADITIONS THAT HAVE TEXTS THAT SAY MORE THAN ONE THING IS THE QUESTION OF HOW TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE.

BUT MY RESEARCH ON THE HISTORY OF WOMEN INTERPRETERS OF THE BIBLE SUGGEST THAT, AND IT'S A FORGOTTEN HISTORY THAT WE'RE JUST RECOVERING NOW, IS THAT WOMEN THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE WRESTLED WITH TEXTS THAT HAVE LIMITED THEIR ROLES. AND THEN THEY'VE SEEN WITHIN THE BIBLE FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, DEBORAH IS A JUDGE, RIGHT? IN THE 19TH CENTURY THEY LOOKED AT THAT STORY AND SAID, "WOW, DEBORAH HAD MORE POWER THAN WE DID.

" OR THEY READ PROVERBS 31 THAT TALKS ABOUT A WORTHY WOMAN, AND SHE COULD PURCHASE FIELDS, AND 19TH CENTURY WOMEN COULDN'T OWN ANYTHING OR OWN-- AND THEY THOUGHT, "WOW, MAYBE WE SHOULD PUSH FOR MORE RIGHTS. " SO, IN FACT, IN THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, WOMEN AND MEN HAVE--HAVE USED TEXTS, UM, AND STORIES AND EXAMPLES FROM BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT TO--TO PUSH FOR CHANGE. AND TO PUSH FOR, YOU KNOW, EQUAL RIGHTS FOR WOMEN.

AND-- BUT IT'S SO INTERESTING ALWAYS BECAUSE IN THE 19TH CENTURY WOMEN WERE PUSHING FOR VOTING, SUFFRAGE, YOU HAVE WOMEN ON BOTH SIDES OF THE--OF THE--OF THE QUESTION. AND YOU HAVE VERY WELL-EDUCATED WOMEN, LIKE ELIZABETH WORDSWORTH, WHO--WHO RAN A COLLEGE AT OXFORD, RIGHT? AND SHE WAS--SHE'S--YOU KNOW WOMEN SHOULD BE EDUCATED AT A UNIVERSITY LEVEL, BUT THEY SHOULDN'T VOTE.

AND WHEN MY STUDENTS READ THAT THEY THINK, "HOW CAN A WOMAN SAY THAT," RIGHT? SO, IT'S COMPLICATED, RIGHT? AND WE ARE COMPLICATED BEINGS AND WE READ TEXTS IN DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, THROUGH THE LENS OF OUR OWN EXPERIENCE AND OTHER LENSES.

SO THE WHOLE, IT'S NOT AN EASY QUESTION. IT'S COMPLICATED, BUT IT'S EXCITING NOW AS WE RECOVER THE FORGOTTEN WOMEN'S VOICES. BECAUSE WOMEN THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE SPOKEN INTO TEXTS LIKE GENESIS 1 TO 3, AND EVE IS, YOU KNOW, A NEGATIVE OR EVIL TEMPTRESS.

AND--AND THEY HAVE SEEN EVE IN DIFFERENT WAYS. SO I THINK AS WE RECOVER THESE TEXTS, AND THEN REWRITE THE HISTORY OF INTERPRETATION IT WILL BE BETTER FOR WOMEN. DORIS, I SAW YOU WRITING SOME NOTES.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS? WELL, I--I--I HAVE TO ECHO A LOT OF WHAT WAS JUST SAID. I THINK IT'S SUCH AN INTERESTING PROCESS OF--OF THE USE OF TEXTS TO BOTH SUPPRESS AND--AND SUPPORT LIBERATION.

AND WE KNOW THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED THROUGH--THROUGHOUT THE AGES. I FIND THAT WHAT--WHAT IS INTERESTING IS IN THE CONTEMPORARY AGE, HOW WE OFTEN REWRITE HISTORY, REINTERPRET TO SUIT OUR NEEDS. I'VE HAD, YOU KNOW, IN MY AREA, PEOPLE CALL GURU NANAK THE FIRST GURU OF THE SIKHS, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST FEMINIST, WHICH IS SUCH AN INTERESTING LABEL TO PUT ON A GURU IN THE 15TH CENTURY INDIA.

YOU KNOW WE--WE--WE SEEK THOSE IDEALS. WE SEEK THOSE NOTIONS THAT SUPPORT OUR UNDERSTANDING OF--OF LIBERATION, OR OPPRESSION TODAY. AND THIS IS, I THINK, ONE OF THE [INAUDIBLE] OF RELIGION, BECAUSE WE CAN DO ALMOST ANYTHING WE WANT WITH THE TEXTS.

BUT I THINK ULTIMATELY IT REALLY DEPENDS ON WHO IS IN CONTROL, AND IN TERMS OF ORGANIZED RELIGION. THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE PEOPLE ON THE MARGINS, PEOPLE THAT SAY, "NO, NO, NO, THIS IS, YOU KNOW, WE ARE EQUAL. " BUT IF YOU CAN'T SHOW THAT EGALITARIANISM WITHIN THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES, WITHIN THE INSTITUTIONS, WITHIN THE RITUALS, THEN THE QUESTION IS, WELL, HOW EQUAL IS IT REALLY, EVEN IF YOU CAN SUPPORT EGALITARIAN PRINCIPLES ON A TEXT.

THAT'S SORT OF WHERE I COME BACK TO ALL THE TIME. SAFIAH, HOW DO WOMEN GAIN MORE POWER IN RELIGION? I THINK BY TAKING UP SPACE, AS WE'RE ENTITLED TO.

AND SOMETIMES, I MEAN IN MUSLIM SPACES SOMETIMES WOMEN, OFTEN I WOULD SAY WOMEN ARE NOT KIND OF GIVEN THAT EQUAL SPACE. AND THAT HAS TO DO WITH SOME OTHER RULES AND FACTORS AROUND MANDATORY ATTENDANCE TO THE MOSQUE AND THINGS LIKE THAT. BUT SOMETIMES WOMEN ARE GIVEN SMALLER SPACES, SOMETIMES CLOSETS, SOMETIMES UPSTAIRS ON A DIFFERENT FLOOR WITH BARRIERS.

AND I'VE BEEN IN SPACES WHERE WOMEN HAVE SAID, NO, THIS IS NOT SUFFICIENT FOR US. THIS IS NOT KIND OF A DIGNIFIED SPACE THAT WE BELONG IN. AND THEY--THEY SHOW UP IN KIND OF THE MORE NICER SPACES, WHICH TYPICALLY HAVE BEEN THE MEN'S SPACE AND SAY THIS--THIS IS--YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHERE WE'LL SIT.

THIS IS WHERE WE'RE GOING TO CONGREGATE. THIS IS WHERE WE HAVE THE GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO BE. AND OFTENTIMES IT BUILDS SOLIDARITY WITH MEN.

NAM: MM HMM. AND WE DO SEE KIND OF AN ADVANCEMENT. AND I DO THINK THAT IT IS A MIND SHIFT THAT'S CHANGING AS MORE MOSQUES ARE BEING BUILT SAY IN TORONTO OR KIND OF IN THE WESTERN WORLD.

THERE IS THIS GREATER CONSCIOUSNESS AS WOMEN ARE KIND OF HIGHLIGHTING THE LACK OF DIGNITY THAT A LOT OF US FEEL IN CERTAIN SPACES. THERE'S A PROJECT CALLED THE SIDE ENTRANCE PROJECT, WHICH SHOWS HOW WOMEN HAVE TO ENTER FROM THE SIDE. AND JUST BRINGING ATTENTION TO THESE THINGS AND ENGAGING MEN IN THE CONVERSATION.

AND I ACTUALLY THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, PARTICULARLY FOR MUSLIM WOMEN, TO KIND OF ENGAGE IN THIS. BECAUSE ON ONE HAND WE'RE--WE'RE CONSTANTLY CAST AS BEING OPPRESSED. CONSTANTLY CAST AS BEING LESS THAN THE MUSLIM MEN, OR BEING OPPRESSED BY MUSLIN MEN.

AND SO TO BRING ATTENTION TO TIMES IN WHICH THAT WE ARE, YOU KNOW, NOT GIVEN THAT SAME DIGNITY IS TO ALSO GIVE FODDER TO AN ISLAMOPHOBIC DISCOURSE. AND SO OFTENTIMES I FIND THAT ACTUALLY TO BE THE MAJOR WAY IN WHICH CONVERSATIONS SHUT DOWN. SO DON'T AIR OUR DIRTY LAUNDRY.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ALREADY THINK OF US AS OPPRESSIVE. AND SO HOW CAN WE HAVE THESE INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS IN A SAFE WAY? BECAUSE WE--THERE'S--NOBODY WANTS TO GIVE FODDER TO THAT DISCOURSE OF--OF US BEING OPPRESSED.

WE BELIEVE, A LOT OF US BELIEVE, THAT RELIGION IS--IS A MEANS OF LIBERATION FOR US. AND SO BEING ABLE TO EXPRESS THAT SAFELY AMONGST OUR--OUR FELLOW RELIGIONISTS, MEN AND WOMEN ALIKE, IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR OUR BEING ABLE TO KIND OF RECLAIM OUR--OUR SPACE AND WHAT THAT--WHICH WE'RE ENTITLED TO. BRENDA, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WELL, I'M JUST REALLY ENJOYING THE TALK. [LAUGHTER] ME TOO! I'M LEARNING SO MUCH.

YEAH, I--I--I JUST, I THINK THAT, AGAIN, IT HAS TO DO WITH LOOKING FOR ALLYSHIP AND I WOULD ECHO THAT IT'S NOT PATRIARCHY THAT WE'RE TRYING TO REPLACE THAT WITH WOMEN RULING. THAT'S OFTEN A MISDIRECTED KIND OF THINKING, BUT THAT RELIGIONS HAVE SURVIVED BECAUSE THEY OFTEN DO SPEAK TO THE MARGINALIZED LIKE DORIS SAID. AND SO WHO ARE THE MARGINALIZED IN OUR SOCIETY?

OFTEN THAT IS WOMEN. IT COULD BE QUEER PEOPLE. IT COULD BE PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THE COLOUR OF THEIR SKIN, THEIR ECONOMIC STATUS, ALL THOSE INTERSECTIONS.

AND SO I THINK THAT WOMEN WITHIN FAITH TRADITIONS CAN BUILD BRIDGES BETWEEN ALL MARGINALIZED PEOPLE WITH THOSE LIBERATORY MESSAGES THEY FIND IN THEIR FAITHS. AND ALSO BETWEEN ONE ANOTHER. AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S KIND OF INTERESTING IN TO RELIGIOUS DIALOGUE, WITH WOMEN OF FAITH, WHO ARE FINDING SPACE FOR THEMSELVES AT THE INTER-RELIGIOUS DIALOGUE TABLE AS WELL.

OFTEN, AGAIN, MASCULINE TABLE, OFTEN DIRECTED BY MEN, BUT INCREASINGLY HAVING FEMINIST AND FEMALE INPUT. DIFFERENT WAYS OF DIALOGUING, DIFFERENT MOTIVATIONS, UM, AND I THINK THAT'S A STRENGTH. I WANTED TO BRING SOME NUMBERS INTO THE CONVERSATION.

THE PEW RESEARCH CENTRE HAS A NEW REPORT ON GENDER DEMOGRAPHICS IN THE WORLD'S MAJOR RELIGIONS. AND THEY FOUND THAT THERE ARE SLIGHTLY MORE HINDU MEN THAN HINDU WOMEN. THE NUMBER OF MUSLIM MEN AND WOMEN ARE PRETTY MUCH EQUAL.

JEWISH WOMEN OUTNUMBER JEWISH MEN BY 52% TO 48%. THAT GENDER DIVIDE IS EVEN LARGER IN CHRISTIANITY. AND 54% OF BUDDHISTS ARE WOMEN, WHILE 46% ARE MEN.

FINALLY, THEY AREN'T A RELIGION, BUT 59% OF ATHEISTS ARE MEN. THAT PEW REPORT ALSO LOOKED AT HOW RELIGIOUS CANADIANS ARE. AND THEY FOUND THAT MORE CANADIAN WOMEN PRAY DAILY.

30% OF WOMEN PRAY EVERY DAY COMPARED TO 28% OF CANADIAN MEN. AGAIN, 30% OF WOMEN SAY THAT RELIGION IS VERY IMPORTANT TO THEM, WHILE 26% OF MEN SAY THE SAME. FINALLY, ONLY 17% OF CANADIAN MEN ATTENDED RELIGIOUS SERVICE EVERY WEEK COMPARED TO JUST LESS THAN A QUARTER OF CANADIAN WOMEN.

SO I WANTED TO ASK, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF ALL THESE NUMBERS? AND I THINK I WOULD LIKE TO START WITH DORIS PLEASE. WELL, I THINK IN SOME WAYS THE NUMBERS ARE A LITTLE BIT MISLEADING.

I MEAN, THERE ARE TRADITIONS WHERE WOMEN ARE NOT--THERE ISN'T AN EXPECTATION IN TERMS OF WOMEN'S PUBLIC WORSHIP, IN THE SAME WAY AS THERE IS FOR MEN. UM, I KNOW SOME OF MY MUSLIM FRIENDS, BASICALLY, THEY--THE MOSQUE IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT TO THEM AS WOMEN AS IT IS TO MEN. SO I THINK THAT ALL NEEDS TO BE PUT IN TO CONTEXT.

I THINK THAT THE WHOLE ISSUE OF--OF LEADERSHIP AND WOMEN'S ROLE WITHIN A PUBLIC RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS, IT'S--IT'S VERY IMPORTANT. IF WOMEN DO NOT--IN SOME RELIGIONS OF COURSE, IF WOMEN DON'T SEE THEMSELVES IN THESE ROLES THEN THEY MIGHT NOT ATTEND AS OFTEN, OR THEY MIGHT BE THE ONES THAT ARE IN THE BACKGROUND, THAT ARE PREPARING THE SUNDAY LUNCHES IN THE SIKH TRADITION, THE LANGAR MEAL. THEY ARE SORT OF PROPPING UP THE INSTITUTION.

I THINK THAT THAT'S--THAT'S SORT OF AN INTERESTING AND IMPORTANT ROLE THAT WOMEN OFTEN PLAY WITHIN THE INSTITUTION. BUT I--I ALSO, I THINK THE NUMBERS ALSO SHOW, HOWEVER THAT, YOU KNOW, RELIGION PLAYS AN IMPORTANT ROLE. AND REGARDLESS OF WHETHER WOMEN ARE IN LEADERSHIP ROLES OR ALLOWED TO LEAD PRAYER, OR ALLOWED TO BE RAHGIES AND KIRTAN IN THE SIKH TRADITION, THERE'S SOMETHING THAT THEY FIND WITHIN RELIGION THAT IS LIBERATORY.

AND I THINK THAT'S--THAT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT AND ILLUMINATING. MARION, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE NUMBERS? I THINK THE NUMBERS ARE REALLY INTERESTING.

AND--AND, IN THE 19TH CENTURY THE, WHICH IS ONE OF THE AREAS I'VE BEEN RESEARCHING, WOMEN ACTUALLY WOULD NAME IT. AND THEY WOULD SAY WE ARE SPIRITUALLY AHEAD OF MEN. AND THEY USED THE PHRASE, ANGELS OF THE HOUSE, OR PRIESTS OF THE HOME.

AND THEY PERCEIVED AS MEN WENT OUT AND WORKED IN THE WORLD, THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, THEY KIND OF GOT DIRTY, AND THEY CAME HOME. AND IT WAS THE WOMAN'S JOB TO BE THE SPIRITUAL LEADER OF THE HOME. AND IN THEIR LITERATURE, AND IN THE WAY THESE 19TH CENTURY WOMEN INTERPRETED THE BIBLE, THEY USED THAT LENS OF THEIR SUPERIORITY OVER MEN TO READ TEXTS.

SO IN STORIES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, LIKE THE STORY OF SARAH AND ABRAHAM. WHEN ABRAHAM WANTED TO GO DOWN TO EGYPT, THERE WAS A FAMINE IN THE LAND, AND HE WENT AND SAID TO HIS WIFE, PRETENDED HIS WIFE WAS HIS SISTER AND PUT HER IN JEOPARDY REALLY AT THAT POINT. ELIZABETH BAXTER, A 19TH CENTURY WOMAN SAYS, "THAT WAS SARAH'S FAULT.

" AND YOU THINK, "HOW DID SHE COME UP WITH THAT IDEA? " SHE SHOULD HAVE SAID, ACCORDING TO BAXTER, "ABRAHAM, YOU KNOW GOD'S PROMISE OF THE LAND, YOU SHOULDN'T LEAVE. " AND SIMILARLY THEY WOULD SAY, IF YOUR HUSBAND--WOMEN WERE OFTEN INVOLVED IN THE TEMPERANCE MOVEMENT.

AND THEY WOULD SAY, IF YOUR HUSBAND'S DRINKING IT'S YOUR FAULT. SO THIS--THIS IDEA OF WOMEN BEING SPIRITUALLY MORE--SPIRITUALLY SUPERIOR HAD CONSEQUENCES FOR WOMEN TOO. BUT IT ALSO IMPELLED WOMEN TO GO OUT AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THEIR WORLD.

SO IN THE 19TH CENTURY WOMEN ARE ADVOCATING FOR HOSPITALS, WERE WORKING IN JAILS. THEY'RE ADVOCATING FOR EDUCATION. SO, IT IS INTERESTING TO ME THAT THESE STATISTICS CONTINUE TO SHOW OFTEN THAT WOMEN ARE, YOU KNOW, MORE SPIRITUAL THAN MEN.

AND I THINK IN, CERTAINLY CANADIAN CULTURE, WE STILL HAVE INHERITED SOME OF THE 19TH CENTURY ROLE EXPECTATIONS OF WOMEN BEING SPIRITUAL AND WOMEN BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR RELIGIOUS EDUCATION, RIGHT, IN THE HOME AND OUTSIDE OF THE HOME. AND THEN WOMEN HAVING THESE ROLES IN MANY CHURCHES IN TERMS OF EDUCATION AND SUPPORTING THE CHURCH STRUCTURES. WHICH, THERE'S A VERY INTERESTING BOOK THAT SAYS WOMEN ARE THE CAUSE--IT'S WOMEN WORKING IS--IS ATTRIBUTED--IS CAUSING THE DEMISE OF THE CHURCH.

AND I'M THINKING, "THAT'S A TERRIBLE THING TO SAY. " BUT IT'S BECAUSE WOMEN DON'T HAVE THE VOLUNTEER HOURS ANYMORE. AND SO WOMEN--ORGANIZED RELIGIOUS STRUCTURES MISS HAVING WOMEN WITH SO MUCH TIME.

THAT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU SAY THAT BECAUSE THROUGHOUT MY WHOLE LIFE IT'S ALWAYS BEEN WOMEN THAT TOOK ME TO CHURCH AND IT WAS MY GRANDMOTHER, IT WAS MY AUNTIE. IT WAS NEVER ANY MAN IN MY LIFE THAT WOULD SAY, "HEY, LET'S GO DO THIS. " SAFIAH, ANYTHING SURPRISE YOU IN THE NUMBERS?

I THINK LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS I THINK THERE IS KIND OF, ISLAM STICKS OUT AS OFTEN TIMES THE ANOMALY IN THAT RELIGIOUS PRACTICE SEEMS TO EITHER BE CONSISTENT BETWEEN MEN OR WOMEN, OR MEN TEND TO ATTEND RELIGIOUS SITES MORE FREQUENTLY. AND THAT, AGAIN, HAS TO DO WITH, IT'S MANDATORY FOR EXAMPLE, FOR MUSLIM MEN TO ATTEND FRIDAY PRAYERS, WHEREAS IT'S NOT FOR WOMEN DUE TO A VARIETY OF FACTORS. AND SO THEY WOULD BE ATTENDING MORE CONSISTENTLY FRIDAY PRAYERS BECAUSE IT'S REQUIRED OF THEM.

AND TO ME, I ALSO THINK ABOUT--I ALSO REFLECTED IN KIND OF THE ORGANIZING THAT I'VE DONE IN GOING TO THE MOSQUE AND THE MUSLIM ORGANIZATIONS OF WHICH I'VE BEEN A PART. WOMEN TEND TO SHOW UP MORE. AND I THINK IT HAS TO GO BACK TO BEING ABLE--THAT STEADFASTNESS AND THAT CONNECTION TO IDENTITY.

ESPECIALLY IF WE CONSIDERED WOMEN TO NOT HAVE AS MUCH ACCESS TO SPACE ACROSS EVERY IDENTITY MARKER, UM, THERE'S A GREATER SENSE OF--OF--THERE'S A GREATER SENSE OF HOLDING ONTO WHAT YOU DO HAVE CONTROL OVER, WHICH IS RELIGION--RELIGIOUS SPACES. AND WE ESPECIALLY SEE THAT IN MANY MUSLIM-MAJORITY COUNTRIES WHERE, I MEAN, IF THEY'RE FIGHTING IMPERIALISM, OR ANY KIND OF THOSE THINGS, RELIGION IS THE--THE MAINSTAY. AND IT'S ESSENTIAL TO THEM BEING ABLE TO--TO EXPRESS THEIR--THEIR PERSONHOOD.

AND SO I THINK WOMEN FEEL THE BRUNT OF SOCIETAL OPPRESSIONS MORE SO. AND SO--AND SO RELIGION IS--IS USED TO KIND OF SOFTEN THAT BLOW. AND WE SEE WOMEN DOING THAT, I THINK, BUT--THE NUMBERS WERE VERY INTERESTING TO ME BECAUSE I THOUGHT THIS ACTUALLY FITS IN LINE WITH A LOT OF WHAT I THINK ABOUT RELIGION ANYWAY.

WELL, WE'VE RUN OUT OF TIME. I JUST WANTED TO GET QUICK THOUGHTS ON MY FINAL QUESTION. AND, BRENDA, I'LL START WITH YOU.

DO YOU THINK THAT RELIGION COULD BE A FORCE FOR ADVANCING WOMEN'S RIGHTS? OH, ABSOLUTELY. AND I THINK IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST.

OFTEN THE WOMEN WERE THE FIRST TO FOLLOW SOMEBODY WHO WAS CHANGING THE WORLD'S VIEWS. SO IT ABSOLUTELY IS. IT IS ALSO AT THE SAME TIME A GREAT TOOL OF OPPRESSION FOR THOSE WHO WISH TO USE IT.

SO IT'S REALLY WHAT WE BRING TO THE TRADITIONS AND TO THE SCRIPTURES, AND WHO HAS THE AGENCY AND POWER TO MAKE THAT A SOCIAL REALITY. NAM: MARION? I WOULD--I WOULD AGREE.

AND I THINK IN TERMS OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, JESUS IS THE GREAT LIBERATOR OF WOMEN, I THINK. AND IN HIS OWN CULTURE AND CONTINUES TO ENCOURAGE WOMEN AS FOLLOWERS OF--OF JESUS. NAM: SAFIAH.

I DEFINITELY--I ECHO ALL THESE COMMENTS. I THINK THAT HISTORICALLY WE SEE WOMEN BEING ELEVATED. IN MUSLIM SOCIETY THEY'VE HELD EVERY MANNER OF ROLE FROM TEACHER, FROM A PULPIT, SOMETHING THAT WE WOULDN'T REALLY SEE TODAY, TO MARKET INSPECTORS, WHICH IS KIND OF LIKE A CHIEF OF POLICE, WHICH DOESN'T REALLY ACTUALLY EXIST ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, AND WE HAVE IT BACK IN MEDIEVAL ARABIA--MEDIEVAL ARABIA SO TO SPEAK.

AND SO IT--WHAT--IT IS BY ALL MEANS A MEANS BY WHICH WOMEN CAN EXPRESS THEMSELVES AND CLAIM SPACE AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WE ARE HERE. AND THERE JUST NEEDS TO BE, FOR MUSLIMS IN PARTICULAR, ROOM TO BE ABLE TO EXPLORE THAT IN A SAFE WAY THAT DOESN'T KIND OF IMPLICATE US FURTHER. I THINK IT'S AN INTERNAL DISCUSSION THAT NEEDS TO OCCUR AND IT NEEDS TO OCCUR TAKING INTO ACCOUNT RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES, HISTORICAL PRACTICES, AND ALSO CONTEMPORARY PRACTICES THAT HAVE TAKEN AWAY FROM REALLY WHAT I BELIEVE IS A TRUE SPIRIT OF--OF PERSONHOOD AND FEMALE LIBERATION IN ISLAM.

NAM: AND FINALLY, DORIS. WELL, I THINK THAT RELIGIOUS--IF WE LOOK TO RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS, I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE MUCH CHANGE IN TERMS OF--OF--OF WOMEN'S ROLES. THEY TEND TO BE FAR MORE CONSERVATIVE AND THE POWER DYNAMICS ARE NOT GOING TO EASILY LET MALES GIVE UP ON THEIR--ON THEIR DOMINANT POSITIONS.

HOWEVER, I THINK IT'S RELIGIOUS IDEALS THAT ARE VERY MUCH EMPOWERING WOMEN. AND I'M THINKING ABOUT THE SIKH TRADITION TO MOVE OUTSIDE OF THE GURDWARA, AND INTO ACTIVIST NETWORK AND CHANGING THE WORLD IN FAR GREATER WAYS. IN SOME WAYS I THINK SOME YOUTH ARE GIVING UP ON THE INSTITUTION, THE RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS, AND THEY'RE SAYING, BASED ON THE PRINCIPLE OF EQUALITY THAT WE BELIEVE IN, THAT OUR FAITH IS BASED ON, OR OUR TRADITION IS BASED ON, WE'RE GOING OUT TO CHANGE THE WORLD.

AND--AND THE INSTITUTIONS WILL--WILL BE LAGGING BEHIND, BUT THERE'S SOME REALLY AMAZING STUFF THAT'S HAPPENING, PARTICULARLY AMONG SIKH YOUTH, YOUNG PEOPLE, THAT--SIKH ACTIVISTS NETWORK FOR INSTANCE, THAT ARE DOING INCREDIBLE THINGS. AND THE GURDWARAS AND I THINK IN OTHER RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS AS WELL, THEY'RE BEING LEFT BEHIND. THANK YOU SO MUCH, EVERYONE.

THIS WAS A GREAT CONVERSATION. MARION, SAFIAH, DORIS AND BRENDA, THANK YOU VERY, VERY MUCH. ALL: THANK YOU.

NAM: TAKE GOOD CARE.