Dr. Peterson Interviews Former U.S. Most Wanted Cybercriminal | Brett Johnson | EP 406

Cyber crime today if it were a country would have the third largest economy on the planet that's how things have expanded to that point and now does that include pornography distribution it does not without pornography dist without [Music] [Music] pornography hello everyone um I had the opportunity to speak to Brett Johnson and Brett well Brett had a rough life and it led him Dark Places and he spent a lot of time setting up and running the darker edges of the web and for many years and facilitating the development of online criminality and it's become a

real Scourge in our society and that all changed about six years ago when he decided that he was going to work on the positive side of the universe for a while and so we spent a good amount of time time walking through his bio and Talking about how he got involved in Shadow crew say from 2002 to 2004 was an early Consortium of online criminals devoted to the sales of illegal Goods drugs guns identities and information and so forth and we walked through all that and then the mechanics of his decision to stop and to

start working with law enforcement agencies and so forth and with corporations and to inform the general public about the dangers of online crime and about how to Protect yourself and well about about the realities that faces as we professionalize and organize criminality at the same rate that we're doing with everything else using this amazing technology that's at our at our fingertips so welcome aboard it's going to be quite the ride I've been studying this array of personality traits it's going to be a long question question but it'll get us right into What we want to

talk about today um known as the dark tetrad now the dark tetrad is a group of descriptors of Personality that are negative and they emerged as a object of Investigation for two reasons okay one reason was that there was this gentleman named Dr Robert hair who worked at the University of Columbia and he was the first psychologist who studied Psychopaths and he interviewed a lot of Psychopaths in prison hundreds of them and developed a questionnaire measurement a set of measurements essentially that helped determine what the personality characteristics were of people who were likely to become

long-term unrepentant career criminals and his students started to study that psychopathy let's say it kind of had two components it had a callous component so People who are Psychopathic are more are likely to be very high in the trait they're disagreeable um self-centered they have very little empathy for other people and can be cruel if necessary and then they also tend to have a parasitical lifestyle which means that they'll they're perfectly willing to live on the earnings of other people or to manip iate them for that purpose that kind of Makes up psychopathy they also

tend to be relatively Fearless so yeah yeah yeah so and then the um his students started to study psychopathy in normal life right because many Psychopaths end up in prison but not all of them and so hair students started to study more normal psychopathy so to speak at the same time psychologists had put together a group of Personality descriptors that covered the whole range of of possible Personality five factors extroversion extroverted people are talkative and full positive emotion neuroticism that's a proclivity for negative emotion agreeableness we talked about that a little bit already conscientiousness and

creativity or openness but they eliminated from those descriptors anything that was evalu so good evil bad good cruel kind most of those were taken out because they wanted to make a non-evaluative Representation of personality but then that didn't work out so well because you had to keep in the evaluative terms for for the study of say serious misbehavior and people started to look at how those descriptors clumped and came up with this dark tetrad model so the darker sides of Personality are Mac Alan so melan will use manipulation to get what they want from people

uh psychopathy which we already discussed narcissism which is the desire for Unearned social status and attention and then sadism which was the latest one that was added to that which was something like positive Delight in the suffering of others okay so that's the background now I've got extremely interested in this in recent years because our culture is splitting apart and there's a culture War that's occurring that's much more and more serious and it looks like part of that's driven by Polarization and so I'm concerned that polarization is driven fundamentally by the disinhibition of the psychopathic

or dark tetrad types online so in normal interactions between people there are lots of evolved mechanisms to stop manipulation so for example if you and I have repeated interactions and if we're in a community where people know me and know you if you you can probably pull the wool over my eyes two or three times But by the third time I'm going to catch on maybe and then I'll know you and then word will get around and that'll keep you under control right and a lot of people are C kept under control by nothing else

than social reputation and social pressure that's all Stripped Away online and so I'm concerned that the virtualization of the world is enabling the psych pass now there's I want to add one more thing to that before asking you more specifically about this I know Already that about 35% of internet traffic is devoted to the propagation of pornography and my sense is it isn't the world's best guys that are involved in the production and distribution of pornography and then there's a huge area where there's overt criminality right I mean not most of the elderly people I

know are targeted on at least a weekly basis by people who are trying to steal everything they've got and then around that there's an edge of sort of Quasi Criminal behavior that is engaged in by the anonymous trolls and so forth the people who are doing their what do they call it they're having their fun for the laws which is to laugh out loud to to gain amusement at the expense of others and we also know that the people who do that are more likely to have these dark tetrad personality traits so I'm wondering you

have extensive experience with this you ran an organization or were involved in it called Shadow crew Correct 2002 to 2004 and so and that was one of the earlier attempts to organize how would you describe it is it organized criminal Behavior quasi criminal Behavior legal Behavior criminal criminal stra so so let's talk about Shadow cre to begin with tell everybody exactly what that was so Shadow crew was the the first organized cyber crime Community if you think about cyber crime in order for it to succeed three things have to take place you have To gather

data that's the stolen pii that's credentials that's any type of tool that's used to help commit the crime which is the second necessity of cyber crime and then the third necessity is cashing that crime out and that means either information access data or cash all right so the problem is okay so the three were again the three are gathering data committing the crime yeah cashing out okay the issue is is a single attacker criminal activist nation state What have you a single attacker cannot do all three things so he has to network with other criminals

who are good in those areas where he is not and that so it's like a thief with a fence for example that's it so you you're you're relying on the internet to fill that Gap where you don't have skill okay all right so that's what shadow crew primarily did was it allowed criminals to network with each other Shadow crew is also the first Forum or or platform Of its type that was a criminal market place for goods and services so prior to Silk Road or whatever's around today the dark web as we know it uh

Shadow crew was that platform that began all of that okay so that was the origin point right okay okay and that was in how old were you I was uh so this was 2002 32 through 35 Shadow crew makes front cover of Forbes August 2004 headline who's stealing your identity October 26 2004 Secret Service arrest 33 people six Countries 6 hours okay and how exactly were you involved in that looking at Financial cyber crime the the Genesis of there are three sites there's counterfeit Library Shadow crew and then Carter Planet I ran both counterfeit library

and Shadow crew it starts with counterfeit Library um and the way it starts geez I mean the I grew up with a background in fraud my fraud yeah my mom was uh basically the a major fraudster in Eastern Kentucky so I grew up knowing how to do a document forgery insurance fraud so faking stolen cars faking accidents burning homes for cash trafficking drugs illegally strip mining coal that's my basis of everything and your mother was doing this my mom did that yeah my mom did that my dad how did she get involved in that that's

a good question I I would say from her family because as I grew up it was really every single member on that side of the family my grandfather For example I mean what he would do is he would buy stolen goods all the time he sat down we were in Eastern Kentucky he'd sit down on the uh the porch of his of his house and people would bring up stolen goods and they'd try to give him a story on how it was acquired you know Paul this is where it comes from he' stop him son

I'm not an FBI agent I don't care how much do you want for it so that's way things began um but there's a lot of fraud in Eastern Kentucky that's not an excuse there's just a lot of fraud that takes place my mom okay so there's a community there that that that engages in fraudulent practices regularly and your mother was neck deep in this my how old were you when you started to know that and started to get involved in how old were you do you think I I was 10 years old when I started

break along and what okay how did you okay let let me go a little bit or even earlier than that so how Would you describe yourself as a child like earlier than 10 did you have friends no Dr Peterson I didn't really have friends I don't really have friends now okay and so why didn't you have friends when you were a kid um my dad was in the military we moved around a lot my uh my mom and dad they they argued all the time uh my my entire Circle were my parents and my sister

and your sister yeah and and is your sister younger or older than you my sister is Year younger and do you have a relationship with her I do I do I have a very good relationship you have a good did you have a good relationship with her when you were a kid I did yeah we it was honestly it was like me and her against the world okay so you had one person and you had one person what did you have what was your relationship with your mom like my mom was a person who always

told us that uh she gave up gave up her life For us that she was going to leave and not come back that we'd find her dead in a ditch someplace she'd go out and uh no other word to to describe it other than she'd go out and around with other men on my father uh once she leaves him she would come home and tell me that um make up these stories about how the man had abused her tried to rape her everything else so I became the guy that the kid who was uh scared

that she wasn't going to come back I was a kid That uh if she wanted if she was going someplace I would try to go with her to make sure she was going to be okay mhm um so she was out there putting herself at risk constantly and but also tell me if I've got this right I want to make sure I've got this right but that she'd also come home and tell you in particular how dangerous the situation was particular right right and so was she was she trying to was was that like was

she playing the Martyr was she Trying to get attention did was she that confused like what was she out for adventure like what what do you think was going on with her so I I view my mom and I I don't have a a real relationship with my mom now but I I view her as the person who always tested people if I can do this to you will you still love me at the end of the day uh she she she cheated prolifically on my father abused him tried to kill him tried to poison

him um and he always kept taking her Back always and I think that was uh that was my that's how I view my mom is is what could she do to you and you would still love her at the end of the day did you know her mother at all I did what was her mother like so her mom uh her her mom's name was ala and um she was I don't know if she was she wasn't like that yeah she um she was very condescending she was um she would she wouldn't say anything to

your face it Was always behind your back that type of of mentality now now grandfather my her father Paul was very in your face and Paul was and he was the one that was involved with the with the fencing essentially he was yes um so he was he was always in your face he would uh he would tell you what he thought of you and um it was almost as if he had a he had high blood sugar and he wouldn't take proper insulin for that a lot of the time so he would go off

The Rocker a Lot oh yeah and um so that was the additional an additional wild card but but this is a man who uh not only fencing he would uh if you if you angered him he would chase you around the house with with a butcher knife with a hose um he um he rented Apartments downstairs of of his house he had converted the downstairs to Apartments if he heard any noise down there after 11:00 at night the breakers were upstairs he'd throw The breakers on the renders um if you we lived in the house

with him for a while if it once he went to bed at night he slept in a bedroom off from the living room so he he would watch the the Evening News at 11:00 p.m. it would end at 11:30 at 11:30 he went to bed you could watch television but it had to be muted if he heard anything and he kept his bedroom door open if he heard anything he'd get up he'd throw the breakers at that point in time uh me and Denise when when my Mom leaves my dad um we were allowed to

take a bath once a week and and Paul would measure the water you were allowed two inches of water and that was it and uh so that's that's that that was uh that was was your tional State like as a kid when you were a little kid say even before 10 I don't remember a lot of that I remember but I remember uh I remember just just saying you know not wanting my mom and dad to argue that Makes any sense yeah uh I remember uh I've talked about it before but I've got two earliest

memories the one that I knew was real we were in Fort Lewis my my father was a captain in the military and we were driving in the car me and to D were in the back seat mom was in the passenger seat dad was driving she was screaming at him and finally she lunges across the car grabs the steering wheel and and screams at him are you ready to die you son of a and tries to Steer him into traffic um and he was always he always remained calm he was always uh what can I

do what can I do how can I help this um the other memory I had was and I didn't know it was real until I was in my 40s and my mom mentioned something about it but she had a uh she had a woman tied up in the front yard of my grandfather's house and she was beating her and it turned out that she had cheated on uh on my mom's sister uh on her with her husband and um Those are the two earliest memories I've got oh yeah well those are those are plenty rough

they they're a little rough you know yeah yeah yeah but you know with I didn't have friends it was always uh it was always just uh um that Sur I don't know if you call embarrassment or what say that again I don't know if you'd call it embarrassment not wanting to bring people around Yeah well yeah yeah so you you didn't you couldn't see see how you could bring people over to Your house yeah huh and how you said you moved around a lot cuz your dad was in the military okay so you're you're moving

constantly that makes making friends difficult right yeah yeah yeah and what about your father what sort of relation how often was he around and what sort of relationship did you have with him my dad um my dad passed away about 6 weeks ago and um growing up my dad was always the uh the center of reason if that makes sense He and and he you never heard him yell or scream and when my mom was you know doing these things he would he would uh you know try to reason with her she would bring men

home in front of him and he would he would cry and beg her not to do it she do it anyway she brought this one man home and informed him told him that she was leaving him and uh you know he's sitting there crying she leaves for a few weeks comes back um I love my dad I did what happens is is that uh my Mom Leaves my dad I was I was 10 my sister Denise nine and we moved from Panama City Florida to Hazard Kentucky and um you ask where you know that that

entry into crime so uh mom had been gone for a few days I was a uh I was a guy that didn't think she was going to come back I always worried about her Denise was the kid at nine just pissed off all the time and um mom had been gone Denise walks in one day with a pack of pork chops in her Hand cuz we didn't have any food in the house couldn't go upstairs and eat because they uh they would talk about us all the time you know they uh You' to go upstairs

to try to get something to eat and uh while you were sitting there eating they'd say stuff who who would my my grandmother and my grandfather so uh you know you didn't want to go upstairs a lot you want to just stay downstairs the apartment what would happen if they said things about You well nothing I mean they'd feed you don't make no mistake they'd feed you but you know at the same time they were feeding you you know your mom needs to get a job your mom needs to do this uh you know I

can't believe this is going on all that stuff so um I took that kind of personal I think Denise did too so Denise walks in one day and she's got a pack of pork chops in her hand I'm like where'd you get that she's stealing and she shopped it and she was nine she was Nine uhhuh and uh we started stealing food the shopping plaza that had the& it's got a Kmart in it starts shoplifting other things hoodies so you can put uh you know the way that started we wanted a sandwich so I went

and got a hoodie off the rack took the tags off of it and stuffed loaf of bread down the sleeve of the hoodie threw it across theuh shoulder M and from there it was Video Games and jewelry and clothes and all That mom comes home and sees the stuff that we've stolen takes her a while to notice what we've stolen but uh ask where it came from I tell her we found it she's like no you didn't find that Denise we stole it my mom looks at my sister show me how you did that and

not only does she join us and start running us as little shop lters but she calls her mom to join us as well so we used to take these road trips and Uh that's a lot of the problem I have right now with the holiday season approaching why not include saving a baby's life on your Christmas list through our partnership with pre-born an organization that's rescued over 270,000 babies you can do just that every day pre-born network of clinics rescues 200 babies as they compete head-to-head with the abortion Giants you see they offer an Abortion-inducing

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element of necessity in it right right and you're obviously at 9 and 10 you're pretty damn little and your your family has plenty of problems to put it mildly and so Denise you said she starts the shoplift and then you're you're Doing that next and relatively quickly did you have some sense at that point that it was wrong no sir you didn't and why not do you think I I I don't think I even cared I mean I knew that uh I mean I knew walking into W in Kmart that you know stealing stuff that

people were watching you but I yeah that you might get caught yeah but I didn't care right right and do do you have any idea why I mean you can infer from what You' said about your family why you didn't care But have you thought about that any anym in the intervening years I have I I spent a lot of time trying to trying to think through that and and the answer is well we needed it or at least I convinced myself that we needed it I mean we could well there's some evidence for that

by the sounds of things I mean you were pretty young and you're pretty desperate and so you can imagine how your sister might have been tempted into doing that the first time and well then This problem is solved but then you know I'm kind of curious too at one point especially once your mom joined in at some point I would imagine it got to be both a thrill and a game oh it is it is it absolutely is so you know reasoning needed it uh wanted the stuff you know we couldn't afford an in television

or an Atari 2600 so I'll take it right right you um and then it's it gets quickly to the point where you want to find out what you can get away with What also what you described to some degree what your mom was toying with all the time to see what she could get away with right but why do you think your father do you have any sense of why your father put up with this yeah I do um part of it I think is my dad was uh always scared of the people that he

loved leaving now that's that's my perception whether that's true or not that's because well it's possible that I do that a lot myself these days Right but uh a lot of it is my dad was not a man that um my dad was not a man who had much of a backbone a lot of the time right right right okay so from a personality perspective he would be your mother would be disagreeable and high in negative emotion to say the least and your dad very agreeable agreeable people have a hard time standing up for themselves

and they can easily be taken advantage of but they would also be the Sort of person they are also the sort of person who's very inclined to take care of other people and who will always see nothing but their good side that's my dad but I I I want you to understand too that my dad I I really do believe that you know he wanted to commit the crime too you know if mom had an idea to to burn a home or or fake a sto a stolen car in accident or something like that I

don't think that he had the uh the backbone to do it himself I think that He absolutely was all for it I mean he he would not hesitate if mom wanted to do something like that right so he was he was involved in those things as well he was he was the the only two so how do you think how do you Jive that with the fact that he also I mean he had a military career he rose to the rank of Captain he must have been able to follow rules and to abide by principles

why do you think what did you think it was about the criminal activity that was Attractive to him I think it's getting away with something that no one else is doing I think it's uh you got the he had the confines of the military that type of structured Environ yeah being told what to do all the time too and it's easy enough to do that but at the same time you want to Buck a little bit mhm okay so this this issue of of getting away with it so maybe you can tell me this and

this should be relevant to what we Talk about later when you were a kid like they're so kids when they're in their teenage years generally shoplift and break laws to some degree in fact the clinical evidence shows that imagine there's three categories of kids there's kids that break rules all the time they don't have a good outcome a lot of them up in prison then there's kids who never break any rules they don't have a good outcome either they often end up dependent depressed And anxious right and it's they're not breaking they're not not breaking

rules because they're good they're not breaking rules because they're intimidated and Afraid okay and then there's kids in the middle who toy with rule breaking especially when they're adolescents but then you know they usually straighten out by the time they're 16 or 17 and put that behind them right so now when I was a kid in my little town can remember in junior high Shoplifting was all the rage and if you were good at it there was certainly a certain amount of status associated with that I had a couple of people I knew they were

older tough guys athl athletic types A Farm big farm kids their Triumph was stealing a canoe right sh shoplifting a canoe which is like they didn't even really need a canoe but it was really a Brazen act right like what's the most Preposterous thing we can possibly get away with and that Issue of getting away with it you know there's a kind of there's a there's I think of it as a kind of arrogance and pride that's associated with that like because one and one of the things that is true of the more Psychopathic types

of criminals is that they generally justify their crime with a rationalization that goes something like if you're so stupid that I can take advantage of you then you deserve exactly what you have coming to you Right and it's also a demonstration of the criminal superiority in that situation and so I'm wondering well I'm wondering what you think about those sorts of motivations in relationship to what your family was doing after your mother put together this little crime Network around you two as kids I don't think that um the superiority I don't see that in my

childhood growing up okay I don't all Right I absolutely see that once I Branch off my own yeah okay okay so yeah that that's right right okay so that comes later right right okay okay but but I I wouldn't have thought either that that was what motivated the initial crimes cuz you already laid out really how that happened you're relatively desperate kids you're relatively isolated you don't exactly have the best moral uh models plus you're hungry and eating is a pain and you know it it sort Of happens one step at a time and then

your mother facilitates your father joins in that that's perfectly understandable okay so now you said your mother leaves your father about when you're 10 is that permanent 10 11 somewhere through there but yes that's permanent absolutely and then so what are her relationships like after that so after that she she was a nurse an LPN and she was a nurse she was but the thing about my mom was she would get a Job long enough to see my dad off to work she'd quit the job and then go out partying that was my mom so

when she leaves my dad we moved back to Kentucky my my grandfather like I said he lived in a house he had elevated the house and built a Apartments underneath so we ended up living in an apartment underneath my mom yeah she started out with a job as a nurse but that lasted a few weeks at which point she there was another lady down the street she hooked Up with her and they would go out partying on uh and basically leave me and Denise at home and did your mother drink a lot she did not

she was a valum user though valum any other drugs valume pot probably drink as well but I I absolutely remember the valume okay okay right so big Benzel used us her but she would um it was all about partying it was it was about a host of men that she would come home and she was either dating them and she would always pick The most dangerous man she could possibly find so it was oh so those are the kind of guys that were around oh yeah she liked those types of guys so there was there

was one who uh who had murdered his girlfriendwife whatever that was and had supposedly had a blackout and didn't remember it so I got to hear all about that finally she meets the man who would become my stepfather and Jimmy was his name and he was he was not a bad guy he was not he was he was An alcoholic but uh he worked hard every single day um I don't know what to tell the way they met to hear my mom tell it what had happened was um she went to walk into a nightclub

he was standing outside he looks at her and says hey why don't we go make some babies and she looks at him and says well come on and that that was the way they met and they had a relationship from that point um you asked about my child funny that they'd want to it's funny in some ways Meeting like that that they'd actually want to have a relationship because it's a hell of a right it's so contradictory is that you establish a sexual relationship really at the drop of a hat right and yet even then

there's a pull towards something like an actual relationship and and and Jimmy from from what you're telling me it sounds like Jimmy wasn't as bad as some of the guys that your mom dragged home I would agree yeah and how old were you did she marry Him or did they just live together she married him while I was in juvenile detention and did did she divorce your father she did okay she okay and how old were you when she married Jimmy 15 15 and that's you were in a juvenile detention center I was okay so

how let's go through the progression of your criminal career you start out with shoplifting I did and then that expands under the tutelage really in the participation of your mother and your Father and your grandmother and your sister anyone else involved in that I mean not not really like Paul he did a lot of fencing Paul was just a little crazy violently crazy at times all right so but and Paul was my grandfather Paul's your grandfather um but it was it was my mom my sister I I hesitate to say her criminal experience because other

than shoplifting she doesn't do anything else I see I see so she she didn't she didn't continue to she did not and was There a point in her life when she quit shoplifting as well how old was she when she this would have been 12 or 13 oh oh okay so she quit early yeah so and what happened was is we we took this road trip to Bristol Tennessee there was a mall called the Henry Fort Henry Mall and uh they would go to JC penes and steal clothes and jewelry I would always go to

the bookstore and steal books so I was in the bookstore Balton bookstore stealing books why were you stealing Books CU I like to read a lot so okay yeah so I was stealing books and uh it's like a virtuous cry right so I stealing books and I was supposed to meet them back at at the vehicle as they were coming out JC Penny so I go back to the vehicle nobody's there I wait about 30 minutes walk into JC Penny as there's two guards outside and I literally hear my name come over their their walkie-talkies

for Brett Johnson I'm like that's me so go up and they had Gotten caught at that point so uh that ended their shoplifting experience and that ended Denise's little fora into criminal activity too and she so so why do you think she quit Denise never I don't think she ever wanted to do it I think Denise actually had that moral compass at that point in time I see so you think she was primarily driven to it by necessity and then your mother was participating and so it got extended and then when the Hammer came down

that was enough and so so okay well we'll get back to get back to Denise later okay so so now you on the other hand you're shoplifting and now and so how are you reacting to doing it now you saw your mom and your sister get caught why didn't that stop you well because I was getting the stuff that I wanted okay you know I was uh we couldn't afford the video games or the the the clothes or later on I was doing the D and dash routine at restaurants And stuff like that we couldn't

afford that so it became this thing of okay if I can't afford it I'll take it right right right but and even at this point 12 13 do you have other guys around you at that point other friends or not then either you alone so so in our neighborhood there were uh there were four boys there was me my cousin two kids lived down the street and we all basically you know we all were in the in the mess yeah as that goes to speak but Um you know we grew up in that environment and

all of us were getting in some sort of trouble right but you also are you also don't it doesn't seem that also that you're inclined to characterize them as friends that's true I'm not okay okay and you said that's even true now he yeah I don't um when I speak I do a lot of speaking and when I speak I I I'm I tell people I never had friends while I was a criminal I had Associates because you Don't have friends I lied to everybody yeah right right and I yes that's an unstable basis for

friendship I don't think you can have friends when you're Li it's tough yeah um these days I uh I don't have friends I've got my wife yeah um next door neighbors a few people like that yeah but I'm not uh I'm not guy that uh has what I think is would be considered real friendships yeah well it's a hard thing to establish later in Life if you don't have a pattern of doing that from probably from about the age of three to tell you the truth like there are boys I'm not sure would were you

an aggressive kid no okay okay so so one of the typical patterns for long-term criminality is there's a small minority of boys about 5% who are quite aggressive by temperament at age two they kick hit steal and bite and so if you put them with other two-year-olds You know they're aggressive right now two-year-olds tend to be egocentric anyways but these two-year-olds are egocentric and aggressive most of those boys are socialized by the age of four and so then and what that means is they start to develop friendships that are somewhat reciprocal at about the age

of three and then that expands right and there are often boys who are disciplined appropriately Often by father at home right and then they get to be socialized Well enough so they can have friends and then they have friends and instead of being aggressive and tilting in the exploitative direction like they did when they were two they learned to be you know competitive within the confines of sports and so forth they sublimate it into some other yeah yeah but if they don't manage that by the time they're for they never manage it it's very hard

to be socialized into a friendship network if you don't accomplish it Between the ages of two and four okay right yeah it seem seems to lay down the pattern for it or something like that establish the expectations we don't exactly understand it that well okay so between 10 and 15 and are you still in school are you going to school any degree of regularity how are you doing at school I was um I was extremely bright in school but bored a lot yeah so would miss a lot of school would typically not do a lot

of the work um Thought that I knew more than the teachers a lot of them and uh did not hesitate sometimes to tell them that so that that was my school experience how far did you get in School uh halfway through bachelor's oh okay so you went off to college or university I did and what did you take at College English lit and theater okay okay okay okay all right so now as your as your shoplifting expands What other activities are you getting in involved in on the shadow side of the law like are you

drinking are you smoking are you are you were you ever a drug user when you were young no I didn't I didn't start drinking until I was 34 never used really yeah really okay so that's strange so how in the world did you manage to skirt the more than skirt the frontiers of like shoplifting and other Sorts of criminal Behavior when you're a teenager especially with a mother who's partying all the time and and that sort of influence around you why in the world weren't you attracted to alcohol and and drug use I didn't want

to be like my mom okay but but that's very specific because you were you were engaging in criminal activity with her but you there was something about the drug world that really you weren't happy about okay so so what was that what is it exactly that You decided you weren't going to participate I don't want to lose control under some sort of substance I want want to be in control of myself I see I see and so you saw her lose control yeah in ways that were what what do you say were they frightening were

they otherwise off-putting what was it about the influence of drugs on her that you particularly objected to and didn't want to replicate so I associate my mom's drug use with Uh with that verbal mental uh physical abuse that she did to everyone everyone I I associate her her want this with other men with that drug use I uh the way that she treated my father the way she tried to kill my father sometimes I Associated all of that with that I never had kids I didn't start drinking until I was 34 um have never used

drugs all because of that do I think I missed out sometimes yeah yeah I think I missed out yeah but it sounds like you Missed out on an awful lot of trouble yeah M but yeah 34 when my wife leaves um my first wife when she leaves me I I started drinking at that point I basically was like screw it why not the holidays are rapidly approaching but we can find peace and calm in the craziness of the season with hallow the number one Christian Prayer app in the world immerse yourself in Christmas and Advent

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this Christmas join Hallow's Christmas prayer challenge Advent with CS Lewis for the 25 days leading up to Christmas you can focus on the real reason for the season with prayer medit ation and Christmas music on hallow download the app for free at hall.com Jordan for 3 months free that's hall.com [Music] Jordan right right right right right okay so let's let's go through from 10 to 15 you send it up you ended up in juvenile detention okay so how did that progress now you you finished school and well enough so that you could go to university

correct okay so we'll deal with that on a different track but now you're so so how is it how is it that your shoplifting expands and into what other criminal Endeavors and how is it That you get brought to the attention of the law so I don't uh I don't associate the uh that juvenile stuff with the shoplifting stuff okay I I for me I put it on two different tracks and the way that I associate that when I was uh gez I don't know seven eight years old I uh I would catch my mom

and dad I would catch him gone and I would urinate in the house on the carpet down the drains and sink something like that all right um I don't know if it's correct or not I Didn't talk about that till I was about 46 I got on a stage so so me with therapy I do a lot of my therapy in front of a crowd and uh because that's only place I feel like I can be safe doing that as weird as that is but uh I started talking about it I had a woman come

up to me afterwards that said that she used to work with abused children and she was like that's a control mechanism that's the only control you had left was that that's okay fair Enough but what happens is my Mom leaves my dad I was under the impression that I was going to be able to go and live with my dad so one day I I call my dad up and he tells me that not only am I not going to live with him but he's gotten married and I didn't know he who he married or

anything else like and how long after your mother left your father did you find out this two years two years two or three years had you seen your father in That intervening time I had not I didn't have a conversation with my dad for about 20 years I see so your mom left your dad at 10 and he just disappeared in your life outside out of mine right and but you were hoping there was a part of you that was hoping that he would he wanted you to go live with him and that's what you

wanted yeah I would call him every now and then you know I would call him like every two weeks I'd have to leave the the house where we'd live And we that same Kmart I was shoplifting from they had a pay phone outside I'd go out there and call them man and talk to him and uh thought that excuse me thought that I was going to live with him and uh so you were talking to him by the on on the phone yeah okay okay so you had that much contact and did he know that

you assumed that you were going to live with him he did he did but he didn't he Didn't tell you that that wasn't did was do you think maybe he was hoping that that would happen or what did he was he unwilling to dash your hopes or what what do you think was why do you think that he wasn't letting you know how the what the lay of the land was so um I think there's a few reasons for that I think that um it's lack of backbone saying what need to be I think that

um you know after I talked to him after you know after we kind of made amends and Everything I I found out that he he didn't have anything he was living in an apartment he had to walk back and forth from work uh he had a dog he couldn't afford to keep he gave his damn dog away so he didn't have anything and don't think he wanted to uh to tell his son that that he couldn't yeah yeah right yeah well you know things often have multiple causes yeah right right right so what happens is

is he tells me that and the the neighborhood that I Lived in there was a hospital out the end of the street I walk into the hospital get an elevator woman walks in and uh I assault her at that point in I beat the hell out of her and uh I get arrested for that I was 15 get arrested for that that's why I was in je attention I see so that's why that's separate from the other yes right and so now okay so look I don't want to poke and prod in places that are

going To be too distressing so okay okay so so my sense of that is that you're what would you say betrayed outraged and hurt beyond belief at that point right you're living with your mother that's not going very well for OB for all the reasons you laid out you're nursing this fantasy that you're going to go live with your father and things are going to be all right and that vanishes and so now you're now now but the question is why do you think that translated into the Action you took in the hospital she looked

a lot like my mom I see I see why did you go into the hospital do you think we used to as kids we didn't have any money we used to go up there and hop the elevators right up and down oh I see so that was just something you were in there doing for fun yeah okay so you didn't go into the hospital with any like aggressive intent in mind and so you saw this woman what Happened exactly I guess all the um I just through the uh she walks in I was so pissed

off that uh just started beating and uh somewhere through the line you know they had that push button where you throw the uh the emergency stop and so this was in the elevator in the elevator so she were you in the elevator and she got on or was I Was in the elevator she gets on I see I see and there was just the two of you just the two of us uhhuh okay okay okay so um emergency stop gets hit um she starts screaming and I'm just want her to stop screaming screaming so I

don't know how to stop that other than just hitting so um hit her until she stopped screaming get up and uh I remember trying to uh to climb the damn wall of the elevator to try to get out of the Emergency exit I was you know so was the elevator stopped at this point because of the emergency was hit um so I I don't know how long I was in there but uh I ended up starting the elevator back doors open there's a crowd outside and um this guy grabbed him one of the uh nurses

attendants grabs grabs him by the arm and I ended up knocking the hell out of him H how big were you I was a big kid you were a big kid 15 I was a big kid give you an idea of size when I was Uh in grade school I started varsity football um so I was like third fourth grade I played Varsity so I was a big kid oh right right right and um so took off on took off on the Run made it back to the house uh hid the clothes that had blood

on them about uh about an hour and a half later the Kentucky State Police they pull up and uh I was sitting on the porch and they they knew immediately I mean they they knew where to go because I was Known in the in the neighborhood and uh take me in and I was uh I think I was 6 months they didn't have a uh I said Juvenile Detention they didn't have Juvenile Detention I was 6 months in a Cell just away from the adults that's what they had of the County uh the judge at

the end we went to trial I told the judge yeah I assaulted her the judge found me guilty and sentenced me to a psychological evaluation went to the evaluation in Louisville Kentucky I was up at the hospital there for about 6 weeks um cut me loose I don't know what the prognosis was but they wanted me to have U counseling after that of course there was never any counseling there wasn't there wasn't well why not do you know my mom didn't think I needed it so I never and it wasn't mandatory it was not okay

okay well that's seems like a mistake it does seem like a mistake yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah do you know what Happened to the woman yeah she was in the hospital for uh I think four or five days um she she testified at trial as well and uh we didn't have a jury was just judge deciding everything and um from there it was it was a very small town and um she used to uh she knew where I lived and everything she used to drive by the house and she so she was no longer afraid

of you at that point do you think or I don't doctor I don't know what I Don't know what that was but uh you know if I was out someplace she would uh I guess it was just to show her to herself that she wasn't scared oh yeah yeah cool but she would uh she would walk up to me and just stand in front of me and look at me not say anything and uh those types of episodes were kind of common like that H and what happened what sort of emotional reaction did you have

when she did that I would run you would run yeah try to get away And run now at that point were you remorseful for what had happened in the hospital oh yeah you were oh yeah yeah did you ever apologize to her I apologized at court I was uh I never said anything to her after that but in court in court and I I that's one of the I have I wish I would have been able to apologize right what would have you said I'm sorry all right so you were in the Juvenile in the

cell for six about six months or how long did they keep you in there six months okay and what did that what was the consequence of that for you of of of of the assault the the trial and then the incarceration what how did that change you well I became a pariah in the in small County so I became a par right because people knew who you were yeah everyone knew who I was I was uh right so when I come back out I'm um the first High School I try to go to to they

Uh the kids prevent me from coming they actually line up outside at at the at the high school oh yeah when I come in here the second high school the principal my mom takes me in same county same county second high school the principal tells my mom that my sister is allowed but I'm not and uh I looked at my mom I was like hey let me go to this place called Dill Colmes it was way out in the county and uh she wanted to fight it and I was like no I don't want to

Fight I just want to let me let me just go there so uh she takes me there and they allow me there and uh I was a junior at that point and they were uh it was like a home to me they they why' they allow you do you think I don't know I don't know principal was Open Arms well and your disc somewhat distant too right so so you're it's there's a bit of a arms length relationship there so that was a good place it was I excelled there Absolutely excelled so became U head

of the academic team head of the drama department head MK trial um one of the top uh academic students in the state I ended up winning uh uh for theater competition I won best actor and actress in ' 89 for uh for the State uh did extremely well and that's that's but what happens is is uh when I get there that's and I I say this pretty consistently uh when I'm talking to People that's the first real person that I met that was a good person this woman named Carol Colmes was an English teacher I

walk in and the way she tells it she says I heard this voice and I wanted you on stage and she looks at me she's like hey have you ever been on stage and I was like well I'd like to be on you know academic team quick recall kind stuff yeah and uh the deal was if I did theater for her that she would let me be in academics and I ended up Heading both of those but so what do you think it was about you that she was positively predisposed to guess I think she

saw somebody that was uh that was broken and didn't need to be and you think she saw that yeah yeah she uh we get out of school there was a convenience store down at the bottom of the hill and I would have to uh I'd have to wait there four or Five hours before my mom would come to get me so U Carol started to see that how far away was your mom at that time how far away did you live uh 10 15 miles okay so there was no reason for a five four or

five hour delay no there wasn't and uh uh Carol started to see that after a few weeks so she started to uh pick me up take me to the house so she became this like surrogate mother to me you know and uh most of my time for that two years Was spent with with her you know so I did really well and then not okay okay well that's okay so that's that's curious hey because what happens is that you get a second chance but this time you get aligned with someone who's older who is a

surate mother who actually opens genuine doors for you who encourages you she notices things about you that you can do that are genuine right she opens some doors for you and you actually Start to have some success and obviously it seems to me that you were pretty happy about that oh yeah okay so then now you're on now you could be on a good track right hypothetically because you also said you were winning Awards and and you also indicated that you were accepted where did you go to college or university University of Kentucky okay okay

so you're going to a decent University and you're Taking that you'd like to take you said English and drama and you you would steal books to read them you obviously had some academic inclination and some dramatic Talent so you know in some ways it looks like well you could have a life right okay so so you graduate from high school and or so what what goes wrong well what goes wrong is um I had U I got my first girlfriend so I was uh I was uh 19 when I met Christie and uh fell over

head over Hills with a Girlfriend you know finally had a girlfriend high school high school well I was I was out of high school and freshman I see I see so you're at the University of Kentucky right well I'm at a I'm at a community college first about to transfer out I how long were you at the community college um year and a half two years and how was that for you it was okay it was it was not as great as the uh as the high school experience but it was okay okay okay so

when you get a Girlfriend well get a girlfriend and um now coming out of high school I so coming out of high school why no girlfriend before that you're like you're doing all right in school you're you're doing all right in the drama side hypothetically you might have been able to be you know be attractive to a girl why why not why not before that do you think I think it was the history of the the elevator I think it was it was my view of not deserving a girlfriend yeah Because of that and uh

just scared to ask yeah okay yeah well fair enough fair enough um so what happens is is coming out of high school I had I had some scholarships for for drama debate things like that turned those down and uh because had been talking to this girl so wanted to stick around and I see so you'd been talking to her at the end of high school right High schol okay so you so you don't take full advantage of the Scholarships and so forth that are offered because you you now have the interest in this girl okay

okay now the the one I did take interest in I started Community College we were doing a show um called House Divided it was written by the head of um San Jose State's theater department and he flies in the the professor at Community College he knew him so he flies in to see the production and sees me on stage and he's like hey full ride scholarship do you Want to take that I was like yeah I want to take that and and that was for the University of Kentucky that was for no that was for

San Jose State that was for San say St they were going to give you a full scholarship full r on everything okay so I was like absolutely we'll take that he's like I'll be back in a few weeks we'll talk about it I was like okay so um he leaves comes back a few weeks later flies in uh I'm outside shooting basketball with some of the Boys in the neighborhood and he pulls up and uh I I walk up to his car and I'm like I'll walk you introduce you he's like I got it so

he walks in the house he's in there about 15 minutes walks out quiet as the Sheep leaves scholarship dies never hear from him again and uh few weeks later I find out what had happened was is uh he gets in there my mom pulls a knife on him threatens to kill him you're not going to steal my son from me and he took that to heart And oh oh wow and when that happened I kind of took that to heart too okay so what does that mean that you took that to heart I uh is

it okay to cuss hey man have better I was like you know it you know I'm not going to I'm not leaving this place I'll just stay here and uh I see so that's sort of a reaction that's is that is that the same reaction just out of curiosity that happened to you in the Elevator yeah you know yeah yeah yeah okay so yeah CU that's an emergence of something like you you can understand it right because well obviously what happened with your father that was very frustrating and definitely something that could engender both resentment

and the desire for Revenge right okay so now you've been working pretty hard at getting your act together you have this full scholarship that's on the table and Your mother basically stabs you in the heart yeah right right and so the the the response you had which was it that's an understandable response have you been able to determine in the intervening years what you should have done instead yeah okay what should have you done should should have called this director up and said hey you know Edward I'm coming let's do this don't worry about that

I apologize about my Mom I want to take this opportunity that's what I should have done but I didn't let me ask you this question are you at peace with the Mindless screen time you spend on your phone every day are you gaining that higher quality of life you know you desire if this sounds familiar I have good news starting on January 1st tens of thousands of men all over the world will start 202 4 with a 90-day journey together in search of a more purposeful life it's called Exodus 90 and it was built to

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virtue in a culture that offers far too many paths to self-destruction so is it time for your Exodus we start January 1st find resources to prepare for Exodus 90 at Exodus 90.com Jordan that's Exodus 9.com Jordan to start your journey why not do you think I mean that that that response you had that's an That's a response of anger right right and it it's also it's a response that basically says something like instead of moving forward I'm going to burn things to the ground might be me it might be well God only knows what you're

going to burn to the ground but it's so interesting a because you had things set up right and I mean your mother definitely did her part to trip you up no doubt about that but why do you why do you think that you Succumb to the temp ation of saying to hell with it instead of taking this other pathway any idea yeah it's a it's a scary Prospect right I've I'm comfortable where I am Comm crie and everything else but that fear of the unknown of actually doing a a good thing of taking a a

a step into some something I've never done before yeah I've acted yeah absolutely but going off into the into some lost land out in California someplace where you don't know if you're Going to succeed yeah yeah well and you would have had go alone too you know and that's that is a daunting prop but you know on the other hand you know you could have imagined thinking oh my God I get to leave thank God it's what I've been praying for forever I've been you know maybe part of that too is like your situation in

many ways was pretty desperate and you did clamber your way out of it but you could also Imagine conceivably that you were concerned that You would take the Stellar opportunity and it would turn out to be you know to dissolve into dust and burn to the ground and so that's people I know people whose hopes have been dashed repeatedly they start to get afraid of Hope itself you know because they've put themselves on the line they put themselves on the line and being throttled as a consequence of it at some point it's easy to say

I'll never do that again it's not helpful though Because the alternative is well let's find out what the alternative is okay so you said to hell with it all right so now you're not going off on scholarship all right so what happened happens well what happens then is I I dive kind of deep into some criminal activity I was uh and right away no okay were you engaging in criminal activity when you were going to the high school where you were doing well no I wasn't I wasn't okay so you'd put that on the back

Burner at all were you or now those two years I was busy with theater with with Dramatics I would I would go to school at 8:00 in the morning every single day I'd go to school every day and I wouldn't come home sometimes until 800 or 9 at night I have do okay okay okay so the other thing we can draw from that is the conclusion that you had something better to do I did right right well you know one of the things that has to happen for people to stay stop drinking So they have

to find something better to do you can't just stop drinking right or any form of misbehavior you actually have to have something better to do and you had something better to do at the school and then you had an offer the scholarship offer that would have given you something better to do but you didn't take it now your mother put that it's funny thing you know cuz you might ask yourself like did she put a did she put a knife in your heart or a stumbling Block in your path that you then stumbled over right

because obviously like she Bears responsibility for pulling a knife on the person who was offering you this great gift but you know the mystery there too is why didn't you Christ you could have gone to San Jose like to the guy's office and said look you know I get it you're terrified I'll do anything to come here right I'll I'll put my mother behind me she's not a real danger you know give me a shot for 4 months and see how it goes you know I mean that would have been a sophisticated response and you

would have had to do it alone and so it's unlikely but you could also see that it wouldn't have been impossible right and so you had this opportunity instead all right you got to be angry at this point I would think you know oh yeah okay okay yeah right right right and did you ever have it out with your mother about this I did but that type of having it out is Uh was was basically yelling I don't I don't yell but you know this this hey you angry yeah discussion and then you know two

weeks later everything is kind of okay yeah yeah yeah yeah well I mean you'd seen repeated patterns of misbehavior characterizing her life and I can't imagine that you thought that that you would think that you know it would be possible really to sort something like that out so there would Actually be change okay so now now you lack the future you could have had it but you also have an excuse because something's been taken away from you right so now you have a justification for okay so now what starts to happen uh first thing I

do is steal someone's identity I used to go to school with wallet no I actually uh I walked into the DMV found out what it took to get a replacement driver's license noticed the way that they kept records At the DMV then proceeded to get enough documents to convince them that I was him to get them elaborate okay how' you come up with that idea that's a good question um that's an elaborate that's an elaborate plan essentially yeah so what what happens is is uh I was actually getting a my replacement driver's license walked in

there and noticed that uh the way they kept records on the DMV it was all paper at That point in time and I was like well hell they're not even putting pictures to the driver's license so um I was wanting of all things I was wanting a Sega Genesis at that point in time and didn't have one and at the same time I was like you know I could probably set up a bank account and start running checks if I was had somebody else's ID as well all right so okay okay so you have a

goal in mind you want this video game now you're plotting ways that how To do it how to do it so I I ended up so why not like get a job because obviously you've got enough discipline at this point to work at least in principle cuz you've been working at school is it cuz you're like is it cuz you're angry like what why not I had a i later on I ended up getting a job I had I was a manager at a Domino's Pizza for a while okay well but I broke the law

from inside the pizza place too right okay so what so again what the he was it fundamentally Your your anger what's motivating you at this point cuz like the ability to do it okay so is that when that pride in being able to do it yeah yeah yeah so I was I was you know I it's not that I needed money yeah I didn't I was I was when I was working at dominoes I I did all right as a all right um eastery no one has a lot of money anyway so everyone's in the

same boat as it is right but it's so even if you have like a reasonable stream of income that's Small you're doing okay comparatively yeah you're doing okay yeah because most people there aren't working right right most are just making ends me right uh me it was um I think it it boils down to um so when my mom meets my stepdad Jimmy we and I I I actually said this to my sister at the time we ended up uh he went broke and we ended up living in a trailer 40ft business trailer for uh

for about 18 months and uh I told my sister I was like I'll never live like this Again and uh so at that point you know when I started working at dominoes I it's like it's like it was always like a puzzle to me how can I get around these systems so at that point it was like you know you're getting all these orders in I'm like well I wonder if I could pocket some money and nobody know about it well it turns out you can so it was like how Can you steal I can

steal another $400 or $500 a week maybe more than that and keeps going to that point doesn't anyone Find out about it okay so there's a materialist motivation to some degree you don't want to live in that kind of poverty and that humiliation there's things and ego yeah yeah okay ego in what way I'm better at it than anybody else I can do it and get away with it I'm better yeah yeah okay so that's when that starts to come up as right right well the thing is too you already knew that you were smart

right and you had been rewarded Ed for that at school and You were successful so you had reason to think that you could probably get away with it right right right and that pops up a lot in my history yeah well yes I I imagine I imagine okay so that's where it has its real Genesis right so Ste this kid's identity um turns out so what happens is I I end up I leave that day call the DMV hey what do I need to do to get a replacement driver's license I don't have any of

these identity documents and They tell me well you can get some school records and you'll need to go to the Social Security Administration and then get an Affidavit of identity printed out by them things like that so I started at the school Bo the bo Board of Education I walked in told him I was this guy and got his school records from there that allowed me and they didn't ask for ID they did not I see as long as I had as long as I had a social that was fine so I ended up back

then you didn't Have callor ID that was widely distributed so I ended up calling acting like the Social Security Administration telling hey you know we're the Social Security Administration we've got some sort of anomaly with your social security number could you verify your number with us he fell for that came to the social that allowed me to walk into the to the I see I see right so now you're starting to be able to build an identity outside the system right that's A big deal right that's a big threshold to cross and that opens up

the possibility of doing that like at a large scale right away exactly right and you also have the motivation you said ego you also had the motivation what to well to not live in parver to get some of the things that you wanted but but and also the what would you say the dawning conviction that you were smart enough to get away with it right okay okay all right so That's how that starts to develop all right so so get the driver's license uh set up a couple bank accounts get the checks in from the

bank accounts um use that to do cold checks at every single Walmart that I could find in that radius in easteregg okay Define that cold checks what are you doing exactly you go in and you buy Goods write a bad check for it and walk out with the product can why would they accept the check check because back then they used to you so They wouldn't be able to verify how much money was in the account against so they take your word for it right because most of the time that would work and they could

make a sale as long as the check didn't didn't exceed a certain amount they would not verify funds on the account so I think it was like 250 300 bucks something like that oh yeah okay all right so so enough to get going right so did that and uh come to find out what had happened was is when I go In to get the driver's license at that point they had changed security so at that point they take your snapshot and they attach it to the file that has the the DL information on it oh

yeah physically so um that last and that that did not stop me I just hell with it maybe I get away with it and start running the checks they bring the kid in of course they get a warrant for the kid right go to serve the warrant the kid's like that's not me that's Brett Johnson So they get the picture yeah I see I see so they get a warrant on me come down my mom finds out about it um she gets the money up to pay off all the checks and I ended up on

probation at that point so no real consequence for that action and that's a lot of my history too is is I was committing a lot of crime and no real consequence and each time would ratchet it up another notch all right so what do you think should have happened to you at that point that would have Been best for you you know because really what you're telling me I I believe is that in retrospect the play in the system the mercy that the system showed you even was not in your best interest okay so what

do you think should have happened that time now the first time with the assault you got nailed right okay and then well actually your life in some way straightened out after that for a reasonable amount of time okay this time you get caught but But you get a slap on the wrist right and so in you don't think oh my God I was fortunate I should straighten the hell out what do you think instead I got away with you got away there's no consequence and right so even though I got caught did I didn't want

to get caught I didn't think I'd get caught but even though I did get caught didn't make any difference right right and you didn't care no I didn't I I didn't I mean I didn't that that's that was my History didn't did not care about victims did not care who I was hurting Justified it and and believed the justifications that I threw out you I'm doing it for my wife for my stripper girlfriend for my sister I believed that crap that I threw out there too right so but you you needed those extra reasons to

justify what you're doing the extra reasons being that you were that there were other people that you were serving you don't think so I think I used those I did believe those justifications but I don't think I needed them in order to go out and do that now I now what's kind of interesting with me and I I think about that a lot when I was from the girlfriend on if I didn't have a girlfriend in my life I was not doing fraud but once I had a girlfriend in that relationship oh yeah as much

as I possibly could at that point so there was absolutely that that aspect and was that an ego status thing As well do you think it was I with my dad and that that's why I hearkened back to him when I told you that he was the guy that was scared of the people that he loved leaving him I am I am the guy that does not want to uh be aart from that romantic relationship if if I have a woman like okay so why was the fraud necessary then because I could stay at the

house and do it and set my own Hours okay so that meant so that what did that mean that you could be with the person more often keep an eye on them or I don't have to work an 8 to a 9 to5 or an 8 to4 job or anything else like that I can sit at the house kind of make my own hours and I'm I'm there around you all the time and is that what now did you why did you want to be around the person that you were in love with all the

time was it to keep an eye on them or was it because you why was it exactly They might leave for you didn't want them to leave so it was actually a consequence of the relationship of of the and the value of the relationship yeah okay so you could make a okay so this is interesting though so you could make a bond with the person that you were in love with you think that was a genuine Bond did you treat so so you'll have to tell me when I was in prison and I I take

this to Heart I was told that if you have an addiction that you cannot love anything else but that addiction now I view my criminal activity especially cyber crime as an addiction now I like to say I like to say that I love my first wife I like to say that I love that uh uh this this woman named Elizabeth was a stripper I like to say that but the truth of the matter was is I put crime first first right but it's complicated because you said you didn't engage in the fraudulent Activity except when

you had a girlfriend right right so well you know unfortunately people are complicated right and you can have more than more motivation at the same time I mean I guess you'd ask yourself in a push if push came to shove situation so I guess you know one of the ways of sorting that out would be if you were in a situation where it was lose your girlfriend and it or stop committing Crime if you pick the option that left you continuing criminal activity then obviously you love that more almost by definition and so were you

ever in situations like that oh yeah so my first wife I mean Susan it took her two to three years to find out that I was this criminal all right I I lied to her every single day and once she finds out that's when I start the the the routine of I'm going to stop I will stop just a little While longer I have stopped and then finally it got to the point that you like spending the money that's coming in don't you and she leaves at that point you tell her that yeah I I

used to tell her that right right so you're making her complicit in some ways right yeah right and so okay at that point what's justifying the continued criminal activities is still the the ego The Pride the adventure like what the hell exactly is the thrill of it so at that Point um that that that comes into this whole thing that you that first question that you asked about the internet all right yeah so at that point it's it's really ego- driven because I'm at the top of the food chain so I I am the guy

that everyone comes to for references advice how to do things piing up deals everything else I'm basically this kind of God status right right so in the in in this domain of online criminal activity you're way The hell up on the hierarchy chain right okay see that that would have its attraction and that's the same attraction that that mob mob life has for a mob boss right or or in drug distribution gangs there is there's definitely competition to rise up the hierarchy that's typical male motivation regardless of what the hierarchy is you know there's a

great study of a drug distribution gang in Chicago in the projects and most of the low-level drug Distributors were more likely to be employed gainfully than the non-drug Distributing peers right were ambitious guys and they intended to be ambitious within the confines of the criminal organization but that ambition still drove them upward that drive for status right right so okay so all right so let's go back to to when you you go you got put on parole for making this false ID and you got CAU now you know how to do it okay so now

what happens and You're what about 20 at this point yeah I was I would have been probably 2021 at this point okay okay so so you you didn't get stopped you got away with it for all intents and purposes you could think at that point do something like well if the damn system is so stupid that they're not even going to call me on my misbehavior you know to hell with it again and and and but you also said you know and then we'll go back to this you also said that you didn't have any

Remorse with regards to the victims and so why do you think that was like what was the justification for that well the justification for me was telling myself that hey I need it more than they do hey it's his it's just his identity he'll recover from that you know without caring trouble had a realm of rationalization for well because I'm curious because you know the fact that you you know you spoke positively of Your sister and you spoke positively to some degree of your father you certainly spoke positively of this woman who helped you out

in high school you're clearly able to establish some empathic relationship with other people and so that would beg the question you know why didn't that occur why didn't you extend that to the people that were being victimized by your actions but you just said you had a web of rationalizations that I suspect you probably built that Up one piece at a time until it was very elaborate same sort of thing you did with your wife when you told her that you know she wanted to spend the money and so she was really involved too and

you know and that's always an open question if someone's misbehaving terribly in your household and you have some advantage to that and you fail to notice you always have to ask yourself is like well was it was your lack of noticing convenient right and so I'm I Mean IED that against them I mean yeah I get that I you know if someone loves you and Susan absolutely love loved the hell out of me uh and I knew that you know I'm I knew I was never going to quit breaking the law but would tell her

that in order to smooth things over pretend that I wasn't in order to smooth things over and then when it pops up again you know I'm so sorry I'll never do it again blah blah blah did you feel that you were genuinely sorry at that point or Was that just an act I mean it it's complic yeah no doubt so absolutely complicated also by the fact that apparently you're quite a good actor yeah so it was uh part of it yeah part of it yeah I'm sorry I did that am I sorry I I stole

money no I'm sorry that I hurt you right right so you could draw on that sorrow right compartmentalize it yeah right right right that would make it more believable too for you as well right Right right okay so so now you know how to generate false ID so how does the whole internet for know I'm going to start to what happens is is I date this girl that was uh I was with christe for I think five years your first wife no no first girl first girlfriend okay was her with her for five years and

she was a preacher's daughter oh yeah yeah she figures out she finally figures out that I am not going to convert to Christianity I I have belief problems so Uh she breaks up with me and uh I ended up at that point I'm married to my wife Susan within six months meet her it's this Whirlwind thing of sex and romance and we get married um move from Hazard Kentucky to Lexington and uh going to college and I'm a control free no doubt about it told her I was like don't worry about working I got it

don't worry about cooking and cleaning I got it and didn't have it so uh I was working a 60 hour week job had an 18- hour load all the Cooking cleaning no I didn't have that at all what ended was the job and uh soon as the job ends I start going back into fraud again okay so when you went to Lexington to begin with you stopped that for a bit I did right okay because I was working at at I was uh uh testing printer boards at Lex Mark was what was a job I

had and didn't have time to break the law all right so the job ends and I start going into there's a good moral in that everyone watching like you Know the devil finds what is it work for Idle Hands there's definitely truth in that right you want to be so busy doing useful things that you don't have time for things that you know and I take that to heart these days yeah yeah yeah I bet my bet all right all right so so the work how come you stop working when you're in lection I couldn't

do it I was uh the 60 hours was from like a Friday through a Monday so I would be in there 15 hours a day and then try to go to Class with a with a 8 10 hour class load the rest of the week and could so you were take you took on too much yeah yeah and was that in an attempt to impress this woman probably probably try to make it was more trying to make ends meet because we didn't live on campus she wanted to live off C okay so there was Financial

necessity there too so it was it was was she in University she was she was a music Major I see I see performance was what she was and and and You were you happy to be with her initially uhhuh yeah but uh you know six 6 months you think you've got all the things in the world in common after you're with that person for two years you find out you've not got anything in common and then you're with them for another seven years on top of that right right right okay so you so your job

you quit I quit you quit and then okay so what happens then quit the job um start in Telemarketing and I'm good on a phone oh yeah so start with telemarketing and PR good in what way in manipulating people to buy the product right so that's on that's online real live training for manipulation right right and you already have some skills as an actor yeah so I'm very good at that start at a uh uh started a cemetery the cemetery transitions over because we a better position at um the Shriner's Hospital they had a thirdparty

company coming in Doing telemarketing for fundraising selling circus tickets things like that did that once the that gig ended that same company transitioned over to raising money for uh the kuana club and they were selling food baskets so what I did was is I was like you know I can run a kanana club myself so go down get a business license for my own charity and start telemarketing telling them that I'm a kanan's club starting a business can be tough Especially knowing how to run your online storefront thanks to Shopify it's easier than ever Shopify

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Shopify gives you everything you need to take control and take your business to the next level sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com sjbp go to shopify.com jbp now to grow your business no matter what stage you're at that's shopify.com [Music] jbp so when you learn to sell food baskets for kuas you said in all of that you learn to be manipulative let's say or better at it right so what tricks did you learn tell marketing that then enabled you to produce the next scam like what how much of a theory

do you have of that I mean you're a smart guy you must have been thinking through the processes that you use to entice people to buy well you were you were selling Something that was genuine to begin with right but you said you were good at you said I believe that you were good at manipulating people and you know the line in sales especially something like tell marketing between selling and manipulating is you know it's a tricky moral line right right and so and you can be disproportionately rewarded in a telemarketing operation if you happen

to be good at it so what were you teaching yourself to do while you were Telemarketing well see you got to backtrack a little bit on that so you you got to realize that when I was a kid and this is this whole thing called social engineering so as a child I had to know what the adults were doing around me what they were thinking how to try to you know to survive that that Paul Campbell routine sometimes right so I had to know what was going on that translated really well to phone work so

you're you're paying attention you're Doing this active listening thing you so so the first few seconds of the call depending on the tone depending on the aggression of the person how how they're answering the phone everything else like that you know you know whether they're in a hurry you know whether they're dominant or passive you know exactly how to handle that call do you need to come in and be aggressive do you need to come in and be more passive and submissive with that call and did you mirror the People like if they were aggressive

what would you do in response if they were aggressive you so it's all Predator prey right you're depending on the relationship that you're with someone you're either predator or prey but it's not always that you're predator or prey you have to know when to make that switch if you're making that switch so it's an aggressive person you'd come in with more of a submissive type attitude until finally you're ready to take over That call all right I see I see so you back off and look for your opportunity right always you're always gauging the person

you're always paying attention to what they're saying how they're saying it uh the pauses that are taking place everything else until you you finally you read that person enough and you need to do it quickly you've read that person enough to know exactly what you need to do to trigger that cell to do that manipulation to get them to do what you Want them to do and that's exactly and was that a game yeah that's a game yeah but that that that's the exact same thing that translates extremely well when we're talking about online crime

right right okay so that that all these this yeah well it's interesting too because telemarketing is sort of it's the gateway to Virtual right cuz you're just on a phone you're not actually there in person so you're half virtual on the phone right right so you're Learning all sorts of Tricks right right and you get good at it how long do you do that I did that for uh married in 94 so probably through 97 998 oh yeah so four years yeah right how many hours a week uh 30 40 hours a week okay okay

so you definitely develop expertise in this how long till you Branch off with your own false charity so that would have been uh 2 and a half years in okay so you okay and how long did you run the false kianus Organization 8 to n months okay and what happens is I was doing some telemarketing and uh I was a oneman operation so they would uh I did not have a drop address for them to send checks for cash I would actually go around and pick it up oh yeah it seems like a bad idea

yeah it's a horrible idea yeah so went to pick up checks walked up this guy's door he he walks outside on his porch he's like you are not with the kowas club I was like what Are you talking about he's like I'm a member of the kuanana club and law enforcement's on their way oh so I get in the car take off get caught uh serve 3 months in a county jail all right and how much how much what was the dollar amount of fraud that you'd managed at that point that was only charged with

maybe $6 $7,000 just the amount of checks that I had on hand I see and what do you suppose it was in total at that point Any idea for that it wasn't much 30 20 30 not much okay and were you still working as an actual telemarketer at the same time you were not so this was like your full-time job now and were you doing that like8 hours a day or how much time four hours a day four hours a day so 5:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. so that's when you find most people at home

you people are during the day what were you doing during the day hanging out with my wife Susan oh okay okay okay so that's you so You got to hang out with Susan at that then take four hours off to do telemarketing okay and then one day a week you'd go around and pick up check some money okay and so so you got picked up and and you got what was the punishment of at that point so I was looking at a year and a half yeah got a lawyer did 3 months is what I

did okay now that that absolutely ends the telemarketing fraud bit at that point in time yeah okay so Susan and I we lose Our so what was it like to be in jail for three months now I presume you were in the general prison population at this point minimum security prison County jail county jail yeah all that was County jail so in Kentucky if you don't serve any more if you're not sentenced any more than a year you do your time in a County Jail system oh okay and what was it like being in the

jail for 3 months interesting so you it's it's it's very loud yeah uh you've got uh you've Got some violence that goes on so um it it at that County Jail it was not horrible you didn't have like a riot popping off you didn't have inmates trying to kill each other and were you were you good at defending yourself physically I mean are you the sort of person who gets bullied in jail or not to people leave you alone did they leave you alone yeah they did okay why I was big to begin okay Al

I was also very gregarious um smart enough that if Someone needed a letter written or some advice or something I could tell them oh yeah okay so you could be useful when it was useful and useful matters in prison uh it matters a lot uhuh so well useful matters pretty much wherever you are as it turns out yeah okay okay so so all right and you were there for three months three months okay and what's your wife thinking about this she's crying every day right and did she had any idea you were engaged in this

sort of Activity she she did know at that point she did okay she I don't think she I don't think well I don't know what she thought but um she certainly knew I was breaking the law when I was going around picking up checks and doing telemarketing product okay she certainly knew that um I don't and why did she why did she put up with that because she loved me and I manipulated in yeah okay okay okay that's okay same okay right right right Again it's that it's that me putting criminal activity in front of

the relationship you know she'll she'll because I'm I'm the man of the house and I'm paying all the bills she will get accustomed to it right oh yes okay also that so she becomes reliant on it as well right right right do you suppose there's a part of you that knew that if she became reliant on that she would be less likely to get in your way I think so yeah That's a rough one yeah yeah again like I said man I I'm yeah I'm a control freak I am you know I I I want

to be the person that provides for the family I want to be I want to have that position I believe it's my job to do that the problem back then is that job was fraud right problem yeah yeah okay okay so you're there for three months you get out and what do you conclude from being there for three months you have to do it better the next Time I conclude I should not do telemarketing fraud that's the that's literally the conclusion yeah yeah so I start u a little problem generalizing there I would say yeah

so I move over into to online stuff okay is what I do I and I I and that's when what year this would have been 9697 okay so that's e early in the online world right so you're an early adopter of online technology right right so what I do is and how did you learn How did you learn to use computers I was always Adept in that you were my dad when when we were in Panama City um that one of the Christmases this is so my dad we moved to Panama City the only job

the man could get was at a 7-Eleven as a night midnight Clerk and uh that Christmas he gave me into the $70 a piece that's all he could afford for that and uh he he surprised me there was this Texas Instruments they had a a personal computer division they were Going out out of business so this man goes and waits two hours in line to get this TI 994a oh yeah to give what year is that jeez this would have been uh 79 oh okay so that was very early right cuz computers really didn't become

widespread till about 83 84 even that was really early right right so you you had one very early yeah and it was you know it's glorified video game was yeah yeah but it's but you're in the game at That you're in it you're you know you're program and you're talking in all the lines of code and everything so you can play that game for 10 minutes and all that so from there it's just kind of kind of took sure sure but but you got to understand that it's it's not really a lot of crime online

is not really being Adept to computers it's being adept fraud right but but the computer wasn't an impediment right it was not it was not okay so what how what do you Start doing online so start looking around just you you said porn yeah I was part of that 35% at that point I'd spent a lot of time on porn sitze and everything else and finally I find eBay and I'm like I like eBay a lot and I was like there there's got to be some way to make money on eBay and uh what I

came across was Bill Riley he used to host Inside Edition and they were doing a show on Beanie Babies one night profiling Peanut the The Blue Elephant Was what they were profiling and u i was watching and I was like a naive guy I was like you know I'm in Kentucky there's got to be one of these little animals someplace in a store in a bin someplace cuz he was selling for 1,500 on eBay so go around the next day I skip my classes go around to all the little stores T takes me about 3

hours to figure out no no he's not in a store he's on eBay for $1,500 right they'd already been well Scavenged exactly exactly so I was always the guy that did Arch I go home and I start uh I start researching okay what do you have to send if if you don't send an item in the mail can they arrest you for that H is what I was like turns out they can so I was like so how do you get around that well it turns out that they that they had these little gray beanie

baby elephant sprayed dollars bought one of those stopped by a Kroger on the way home picked up a pack of blue Rit Dye oh yeah went home died the guy I was like you know I can tell the lady if nothing else that damag and shipping something like that cuz they were exactly the same except for the color so put a picture of a real one on eBay she wins the B how how how much like the real one did they look not at all look like looked like it had the mange when you got

it so it's made out of polyester so it's hard to D yeah you can't D it be splotchy and everything it's wet Everything else and I was like you know what'll happen is she'll get it in the mail she'll see that it's been wet and everything she'll think it was damaged and shiing I can claim that if nothing else all right so dyed the thing send it out to her get a call as soon as she gets it but before I send it out to her I was like Hey I want to make sure I

get my money send her a message this is a social engineering thing again because I don't want to be on the defens of this Conversation I want her on the defensive I want her to have to establish trust with me not me with her so I sent her a message hey congratulations you win the bid we've never done any business before don't know if I can trust you what I need you to do go down to the US Postal Service pick up a couple money orders totaling $1,500 send those to me I'll send you your

anal h she believe that sends me the money orders the reason I wanted that is you can't cancel them so I sends me money orders I cash them out send her this thing in the mail get a phone call did not order this my exact response you ordered a blue elephant I sent you a blueish elephant and I kept putting her off I kept saying yeah I'll send you the money back I'll send you the money back what you find out and that's one of the things I teach in classes these days is that's the

first lesson of cyber crime you delay that victim you just keep putting them off a Lot of them they get they get exasperated throw their hands in the air walk away right right right you don't hear from them and they don't call law enforcement so it's a first online of crime I committed right there and why don't they call law enforcement embarrassment I mean so think about well and it's trouble it's also trouble to call the ca not nothing and I know the reasons today so it's it's embarrassment of victims it's who do you complain

to Do you complain to the Kentucky State Police do you complain to the Sheriff's Office do you complain to the state where you bought legal ambiguity so there's a lot of jurisdictional issues at the same time a lot of the time the law enforcement when you walk into a police station they don't want to hear it you know were you were you stupid enough to fall for a scam like that is a lot of the response from law enforcement right that's a foolish response because The people who are scamming are likely doing other things right

yeah yeah plus if you let those small things go as we've already discussed they don't stay small for long because criminals are also ambitious what's that broken windows policy yes absolutely absolutely definitely that yes definitely yeah okay okay so so you're putting her off and you've got your 1,500 bucks okay so then what happens well what happens is is I I continue with little eBay Scams under my own name but I start getting better because I'm I start to realize that hey these people are calling me and complaining right about this stuff right so I

start seems like an unnecessary amount of trouble very unnecessary but remember I've got that history and identity theft at the same time right so what I start doing is is I I'm I transition over into pirated software pirated software in order to play like pirated video games back then You had to have a mod chip that was soldered onto the circuit board of the gaming system so I started to do that that opened up the door okay do what exactly what so you get you'd get this little circuit chip yeah and you'd uh crack open

the PlayStation one or the Sega Saturn thecast and You' you'd find out where on the circuit board you had to solder that chip and you'd solder the chip on there and that would allow you to play the pressed or the the the CDs That you had that had the games on oh yes so that wouldn't do that so that led into programming satellite DSS cards so the RCA 18in Satellite Systems you can pull the access card out of it program it turn on the channels started doing that how did you learn to do these things

read it online on forums this is not complicated stuff at all all right so the the soldering I learned working at lexark so that tool translated very well to them the uh the Pirated software led into that what got me on there was I was I was doing porn online and some of the sites had banner ads or people discussing pirate to software so that led into getting the context for the Pirus software which then led into mod chips the mod chip forums started to talk about RCA Satellite Systems so this is the beginnings of

of a criminal Network emerging online essentially and then what happens is a Canadian judge he Actually rules in court he was like since RCA doesn't sell the systems up here my CI can pirate the signals oh yeah thank you Canada yeah so what happens is you go down to Best Buy you buy the system for $100 take it out throw the system away take the access card program it ship it to Canada $500 a pop oh yeah oh that's a good de that's a good start is that that's legal too e that's that's legal it's

well it's gray yeah okay right right so it's legal in Canada right but it's not legal to do it in the United States and ship it to Canada I see I see okay so started doing that also relatively low probability of getting caught because your Canadian people are not going to be unhappy so started to do that and at the same time is when PayPal comes into fruition and back then how much money are you making with the CH 4,000 a week oh yeah and that's in 2000 this was 96 okay so you're doing pretty

well Pretty well at that point yeah all right um had so many orders it became a problem trying to find enough access cards for the orders that's sad that's that's that's that's an issue so what I was like I was like hell they're in Canada who are they going to complain to if I don't send them anything so oh yeah started doing that stole even more money got worried about how much was coming in and wanted a a fake driver's license now I knew how to Do identity theft I didn't know how to make fake

driver's licenses so figured I'd get a fake ID use that to open up bank account funnel the money through the account cash out of the ATM didn't know where to get one that University didn't know where to get one so I got on online started looking around found a guy sent him $200 in my picture and he rips me off oh yeah yeah yeah yeah and I got I got really angry at that you should have thought that was Funny really I you know today I do I do today it's all Karma but yeah back

then I was just mad yeah yeah and uh well that's a blow to Your Ego it is it is definitely but I still needed the ID yeah so continue to search for this thing and F the only the only Avenue you had back then to commit crime online was IRC Internet relay chat rolling chat board had no idea who you were talking to if you could trust them if they had something for sale if they actually had It or if they were just going to rip you off so he couldn't use that Network the only

real website at that point in time was called counterfeit library and the only thing it dealt in was counterfeit degrees and certificates but they had a forum section attached to it so because that was the real only platform out there I start going to that Forum every single day and complaining about getting ripped off that's all I do I'm bitching about That and about getting ripped off for the ID yeah cuz I'm looking for this ID so I'm complaining about getting ripped off and I still need this ID I see I see so what happens

is because that's really the only trustworthy platform that's out there at the point you start having these other people coming into this forum as well I ended up partnering with two other people a guy from Moosejaw s sketch one a guy from La the Moosejaw guy Moosejaw this International crime Exactly right moose so Moosejaw he actually made fake IDs so he gets me one day on icq and he's like hey I can make you a fake driver's license I was like well make it he's like no I'm going to charge you $200 I'm like yeah

like you are well by this point in time I'm friends with the people who actually own the website we're we're shooting emails at each other and everything else and I'm like I tell you what I'm gonna send you $200 so that way when you rip me off I can have you banned from here and I don't have to worry about you anymore and he's like bet I was like okay so send him a picture send him $200 two weeks later I get a fake driver's license is a good one well I thought it was looking

back it wasn't but at that point in time it was good enough to go to a bank right it was good enough it was good enough cash checks with and um and it was in a real name as well so what happens is is he went by the screen Name of blub oh God that Bloody well figures you know one of the things I've really noticed about the most vicious online trolls is the probability that they have an anonymous name with something satanic Nazi or communist in it is almost 100% yeah it's stunning always it's

supposed to be funny it's not that funny actually but it's unbelievably it's unbelievably prevalent he he did that and he was a potg that's what I actually done on the side he grew He GRE grew marijuana but he sends me the idea the the idea ID he wants to sell fake driver's licenses online yeah the other guy that I partnered with was his name he he went by the screen name Mr X and he did a very competent social security guard so together you had an ID package right right I didn't have that skill at

that point in time so what he said was is he was like hey what you do is you become the reviewer any product or service because you don't sell Anything you're not making anything any product or service you'll be that outside unbiased oh oh interesting interesting you review everything then that allows you to get the product in see how it works see how these things operate so that's what I did I started to review things well these are you're reviewing specifically illegal things exactly right so that was my initial right and you had an an

presumably an anonymous handle for that as well what Your what's that Gollum fun go Gollum oh yeah Lord of the Rings yeah yeah yeah like you said like you said so what happens is amazing why' you pick that name I'm a big Lord of the Rings fan yeah but normally people don't pick Gollum as their hero I'll tell you why I picked it so uh on the on the satellite side my initial name was baggin all right and uh because there were some other baggin users on the internet at that point in time I added

Dad to it so baggin's Dad yeah so once I translated over to to a real criminal platform I was like well you can't use that because they're going to find that name and out it's Brett Johnson so I was like I still like Lord of the Rings Gollum then add a t that's sign that you've gone to the dark I know that's that's a sign right there yeah so uh I become the reviewer of counterfeit library and it was a field of dreams for criminals because it was the first of Its type now you had

some place where you had an actual reviewer that when you and when you reviewed something if I gave a positive review I stood by that meaning if you get ripped off I will reimburse you for being ripped off oh you're kidding so you were an escrow agent for for criminal transactions I'll make sure so if I'm if I'm reviewing somebody I'm going to make sure that you get your product or service okay well that's quite the creative Niche yeah Yeah really yeah yeah makes you wonder what you could have done if you would have been

put in that power a whole lot a whole lot I'm doing pretty well right now good good good well but uh Mr X and B elub Be abub doesn't do really well with his driver's licenses he drops out about 16 15 16 months later Mr X gets arrested cashing things out in Las Vegas so he both of those disappear I'm top of the food chain because by this point in time all these other criminals have come To this platform and they rely on me to tell them hey this is who you need to do business

with conect you're connecting people like mad yeah so at one point every single uh transaction went through me on counterfeit Library nothing else from there counterfeit Library transitions over to Shadow crew and Shadow crew and how what sort of population size of people you suppose were using that on a regular basis at that point so Shadow crew ended with 4,000 people what it end with so you know it um 1% of the criminals commit 65% of the crimes right so if there's 4,000 of them and there are people who are dedicated right you're you're dealing

with a group of people who are responsible for a massive amount of criminal activity we were we were prolific if you look at so Shadow crew gets busted in 2004 you look at the cyber crime arrests that have happened up through today and a majority Of those people have connections to Shadow cre right okay so Albert Gonzalez Roman Vega all these other people they Shadow crew operatives even the Canadian guy that ran quadriga the cryptocurrency exchange both of those guys were Shadow cre people so it's it that connections absolutely still exist today on that so

um give you an idea though so that 4,000 sounds like a lot until you trans you you fast forward to 2017 alphab Bay which was a dark Webb Marketplace in Forum 240,000 people right right I grew like everything else on the net then 2019 just a Marketplace gets shut down 1.15 million so these numbers continue to explode cyber crime today if it were a country would have the third largest economy on the planet that's how things have expanded to that point and now does that include pornography distribution it does not without pornography without pornography we're

talking Financial cyber crime third largest economy on the Planet that's how big this is these days now is that primarily operating in Western worlds or how prolific is that criminal activity in non-western Worlds well North Korea finances onethird of their nuclear program through cyber crime finan oh that's a lovely little connection that isn't it though so what about Iran I don't know about Iran I can't give that figure on that but North Korea North Korea oneir one third wow through stolen cryptocurrency credit Card schemes Pig butchering attacks you name it what's that what's that one

Pig butchering is a think of a romance scheme or a cryptocurrency scheme where I'm going to not take one or two payments from you but take every single thing that you've got yeah that's they call it Pig butchering because you're but you're basically butchering the pig and you pull people in one little step at a time quzi scheme thing where they get payouts to begin with and you build Up trust and eventually you just take everything but understand in an online environment trust is much easier to establish because people almost inherently trust that technology you

know we we don't understand the cell phones we don't understand tech security on websites but we trust this stuff we trust those phone numbers that come across the line we don't understand that criminals use SPO phone calls that's not the Social Security Administration or The FBI call that's a scammer you just don't see the right number that lays trust and then remember I talked about social engineering then you see how good of a con man liar social engineer isn't layering the trust and manipulating to give up cash information access data right right okay so this

expands outward and now you're involved in this from 2002 the shadow crew specifically 2002 to 2004 correct okay what happens in 2004 so 2004 I I'm the guy that in the United States there's this thing called tax return identity theft it's the reason that every single person gets their tax returns delayed every single year I'm the guy that started that okay and so how does that work so what it is is I started it um I had access we we had these identity database ACC accesses these different databases started out with the Indiana State sex

registry and we used that to open up bank accounts back then you had on that registry you Had Social Security driver's license but there's made dos of these people of the sex offenders oh yeah and there there's a there's a population you can take advantage of with very little gu exactly the fault right so my thought was who's going to complain about that so started doing that and did so much fraud on that registry that Indiana stripped the pii from the registry pii is personal I sociales of birth mother's they stri That the next database

we had access to was the Texas DMV which we used to make a lot of driver's licensees wow okay and you got access to that got access how did you get access to it they had the passwords were very easy to Brute Force ACC to I see so none of the none of it complicated at all the the final database that I had access to was the California state death index oh yeah all right so I started to look at that and I was like I wonder because I was Looking for money to come in

I was like I wonder if you can file Social Security benefits for the people who are deceased and how does the federal government know if you're dead right because in the United States a state database does not share information with a federal database so the state can know you're dead but the feds may not as a matter of fact prior to 1998 if you died the only way the federal government knew you were dead is If the family filed a social security death benefit only paid like $200 so most family members did not because they're

in grief at that point in time they know about right after 98 that Law changes now the hospital or the funeral home can do that for you okay and they do so back then I was like I wonder if you can do social security death benefits you know retirement benefits on these people you can't because the numbers have been dormant for so long They want you to come in for a sit down interview the next thought was I wonder if you can file taxes for tax returns on these people you can all right so the

way that system works is you pay your taxes the US government gives you a refund on those taxes before they are able to verify with the employer whether that person was hired and worked and had taxes withraw so you can file a false return that's very realistic for someone Else and claim a return and they will send you the money oh yeah okay so that's started doing that I would file um around 180 tax returns a week got to where I was manually able to do one every 6 minutes um Sunday through Wednesday file returns

and to what for what amounts approximately 3,000 and under and why did you pick that amount so I was one of the things that you find out with with cyber crime and I was always good on Research so tax return Tax Identity or tax return theft had been popular and what you saw on on the indictments was people would have those returns deposited to their own bank accounts okay I didn't want to do that no you learned that already I learned that one already so what I wanted to do is I wanted to find some

sort of payment instrument that would accept a direct deposit from the government at about the same time is when these things called prepaid debit cards start to hit the Market and back then they used to advertise them as payroll cards so you basically give them to Illegal Hispanic workers and they could have their paycheck deposited on them well they would accept any AC deposit meaning a federal government deposit would be just fine on that but the deposit amount had to be under $3,000 I see I see so started doing that would uh spend time 180

a week 180 returns a week right so you're starting to make a lot of money At this point making a lot of money at the same time Shadow crew starts to make a get a lot of law enforcement attention uhhuh were those things linked or were were they they were not no one knew I was doing tax return theft at that point in right but what happens is so how are you making money on Shadow crew then I wasn't I I never made iow I see you were just making your connections and learning I ran

the entire thing never made any Money okay so why did you do it the ego okay fair enough I was that guy yeah yeah well like you said their status is a major motivator and I got a lot of so so if anyone like I partnered with the ukrainians I was the guy who brought them over um they would give me shoot me free products and services all the time so as long as I was giving them good reviews and as long as their product worked I was more than happy to do that right so

they made a lot of money too so It was just you know never made cash but I madeit Serv um Shadow crew we had this thing called the cbb1 hack which allowed you to take fished information like we were getting the card number and the pin we found out through testing that the banks had not implemented what was called the hash so in order to encode it onto a physical card you've got three data tracks on the on the card the second data track is what's what's important at an ATM that's the card Number forward

slash and then there's a 16-digit algorithm outside of that none of the banks had implemented the hash for that meaning you've got the card number you got the pen you put any 16 digits out it would encode you take it to an ATM start pulling money out we started doing that and typically a cashier would make $40,000 a day at that point all right yeah and 60% of that went over to the ukrainians that was supplying the information so they were Making a lot of money all of a sudden that got a lot of law

enforcement attention so we started to see IPS coming in from DOD Pentagon doj all these other things at the same right now you're funding a criminal Network in the Ukraine and I'm that's not turning out so well and I'm starting to wonder about Rico all of a sudden yeah right right yeah yeah so at the same time we had a gentleman who who went by the screen name of enhance he was the guy that Posted Paris Hilton's phone list back in the early 2000s all right he's also the guy that intercepted text messages of the

United States Secret Service investigating Shadow crew so we have that I'm I'm at the top of the food chain I'm getting worried about what's what's going to happen I'm like what are you doing with all your money at this point I don't know how to launder money yet so I'll go on a road trip put $150,000 in a backpack that's what will Fit in 20s in a backpack put 150k in a backpack I've got a spare bedroom in Charleston South Carolina come home take the backpack Chuck it in the bedroom 150k a week on that

all right 10 months out of the year so a lot of money coming in and it's is that where it's sitting it's sitting until literally I walk I one day I open up the bedroom door and I'm like I've got to do something with those backpacks so yeah so that point is when When I start learning how to launder money I had bank accounts of the United States Canada Mexico Cayman throughout Europe and it finally ended up into uh Estonia a bank called bank latico it's where most of the money ended up all right and

how much money are we talking about at this point how much do you manage to make about 7 million is what what that was all right um Shadow crew right but I but see when I asked you what you were doing with the Money I didn't exactly mean you're putting it in backpacks and throwing in a room I mean you're making all this money like what good is it doing to you none none none none I I'm one of those what you find out with most cyber criminals is that most of them will commit a

crime get the proceeds of the crime live off that it starts to dwindle down then bank roll the next crime I'm one of those guys that I didn't work that way I kept doing it and and saving The money as a big p I like looking at a big pile of money so uh uh and did you ever did you ever have any idea what you might do with that pile of money yeah I was going to open up a nightclub okay okay okay yeah that was you could open up a pretty good nightclub for

million pretty good one and uh uh so why didn't you just do that instead because you could have had nightclub then looking back it's the ego of thing yeah okay you're in it already Yeah yeah yeah yeah you're not going to give that up no no I mean it's hard to express how big of a draw that is yeah when when you've got everyone that's relying on you so my days I would spend 14 16 hours a day at a computer I only took time off from the computer to go get money out of ATMs

right so you're working your tail off yeah yeah so that that's what happened at that point and it's you're not even use are you drinking at this Point no drink what about women no I see so you're just ping up backpacks of money I have to tell you once Susan leaves I make up for the alcohol and the women at that point uhuh all right right and you've got the cash to bank roll got the cash to bank roll it so I I would uh when I was working for Secret Service I would typically spend

$4 $6,000 a night at a strip club just go in and I'd give the bartender a water 20 and say however many kamic cazis that will buy and they Would put this table together and they'd put all these comicazi on that and I called that my stripper magnet and what's a kamakazi it's vodka and I forgot what all it's got in there but the girls liked it and and I would drink these white Russians is what I would drink all the time right and so once Susan left that's where you were going at night the

strip club once Susan leaves I [Music] Um I get depressed um find out she's cheating on me and uh I put a key logger on her computer to find it out so uh found out she was cheating on me found some pictures and everything else and uh she was asleep in the bedroom in Charleston I walk in there and um it like 10:00 in the morning I walked in there I opened up the closet got a suitcase out started Putting her clothes in it and she wakes up she's like what are you doing I was

like where she's like where you going I'm like I'm not going anywhere you are and uh and so you've been married how long at this nine years and that's your first wife yeah right okay okay okay and this affair she's having she's found someone else that she wants to be with this guy what what what's the scoop with that know yeah looking back what I what I think actually happened was um I think That's the only way she figured she could break off the relationship right cuz that was that was that's always My Line in

the Sand right there right right well and you said you'd already rendered her or she'd already been rendered dependent as well so she needed an out yeah right and did she know how extensive your online criminal activity she was well aware of it okay so she's yeah okay okay did she have any family or anyone connections at that point Still she did and and what happens is is I was a pure um it I was planning on taking her back to Kentucky that day but it it it it was a week of me and her

crying at the house and uh you know ending the relationship this is after you packed after a week doing that and um I mean it's obvious that the relationship's over and um so I take her back to her mom's in in Eastern Kentucky and that's the last time I see her right there um from there I go back To Charleston I'm uh walking around the house crying all the time realized I was getting suicidal figured I better do something about that picked up the phone book went to psychology went to criminal psych if found one

have said criminal psychology on there called the psychologist crying she tells me to come in and I see her for about 4 months and uh she was trying I tell it in speeches but she was trying to get me to stop Breaking the law and go into real estate and I kept telling her is there a difference between the two and um what happens is is one night I get lonely and horny had never been to a strip club before I was like tonight's the night I get laid because I've got all this money to

walk in and uh I'm the guy that falls in love with the first one that he sees yeah oh yeah yeah she walks by I'm like that's the one for me move her in with me how long I moved her in with me Within um 8 weeks yeah yeah that that's not why it's you no it was not and were you did you is that when you started drinking I I started drinking shortly before that uhuh and were you intoxicated when you made the decision to go to the strip club I was not completely sober

completely sober okay so uh were you drinking at the strip strip clubs by that point no I was only I only drank at the point in time I only drank White Russians and it was just a Beer bar was all and I couldn't stand beer at that point so uh what happens is is she walks up to the bar and she's like you want to buy me a drink well the drinks for $25 a pop I'm like yeah what are you drinking for $25 and finally she's like well we can go in the back if

you buy a bottle of champagne I was like well how much is champagne she's like bottle of Corbell is $400 I'm like okay so we go back there and there's no D that I find this Out later a lot of men that go to strip clubs especially you know 30s plus they don't do dances they just want a bartender they want somebody to talk to and that's L what I did with this I talked to her about three hours that night that's yeah yeah yeah yeah come back a week later and ask her out and

she says yeah move around with me probably eight weeks after that find out she's addicted to Coke after that find out not only addicted to Coke but Prostituting herself to support the habit and um I go off the rails at that point I get it a okay so why were you shocked I don't think I was yeah okay I I think that U I think that I wanted something and I just was willfully naive at that point yeah well you know yeah fair enough fair enough well you there's none so blind as those who will

not see they say yeah yeah well you said you were Lonesome and it's easy to look the other way in all sorts of ways so right And it's not like your plate was clean at the at that point she didn't know I lied to her too you didn't know I broke the law she had no idea about that I I was telling everybody that I knew that I was fraud consultant and that was a joke for me I yeah I consult on fraud I just don't tell you on which side of the right right right

right so um what happens is is um I get it in my head that I can fix her yeah and I don't I don't understand yet now you can't fix Other people Brad you know hell you can't fix yourself well yeah try yourself first and see how far you get with that so uh I I I actually adopt this I I actually said it I was like what I'll do is I'll spend enough money on her that it'll keep her mind off drugs no matter what it takes because I've got that kind of bankroll well

I've spent I've sent most of my money over to Estonia so I've got a bankroll at the House of maybe 200k it's fine all right she's got very expensive tastes uh at that point in time my my meals I'd eat at the house I'd cook at the house I didn't spend a lot of money on stuff um it became every single night you know $500,000 dinners became $2,500 purses every weekend ,000 gepi zatti shoes every every weekend quickly start dwindling down on funds at the same time that shadow crew gets busted so Shadow crew makes

that front cover of Forbes And gets busted three four months later when that happens by the time that happens I'm out of money uh Elizabeth stopped using cocaine absolutely she she started to she substituted with alcohol point but she stops using Coke and she gets this thing where she doesn't want me to be away from her well when you're doing this type of cyber crime you have to take road trips you don't want to where you eat so you want to travel because if you if they find out a Central location for you they're going

to get you so because Elizabeth didn't want me to leave any place I can't take a road trip Shadow crew gets busted right as tax season is over I can't do tax return fraud in October so I have to wait until late January February to start back tax fraud Shadow krus busted I can't go into credit theft or anything else all of a sudden so the only thing that I'm left with is checks running paper I used to teach people never run Paper you're going to go to prison for that it's easy enough to catch

that stuff I start doing that get caught and um I got what happened was Elizabeth wanted uh Tiffany rings so Tiffany engagement ring that was a counterfeit cashier's check and then she wanted the wedding bands and that's where I got caught I had them ordered through eBay and uh you know this is the plot of a very bad novel very bad one that we're trying to work on yeah yeah yeah okay so You get nailed you get nailed at that point you've broken your own rules there too I have why just why what why did

you think you could get away with it like you knew you no I Knew by that point I knew I guess just tired worn out didn't give damn anymore everything else uh when Susan left I actually tried to tried to get a real job that didn't last oh yeah so do you suppose there was a party that was hoping you were going to get Caught I I hesitate to say that yeah yeah but it's strange that you would pick something that you knew you knew but I do the same thing with the Secret Service so

maybe yeah maybe yeah yeah yeah well you know you said you were pretty sick of yourself after your wife left yeah yeah and then the whole thing with the stripper couldn't help that much right yeah did you love her it's that addiction thing right I uh Yeah I loved her yeah I loved the out of her yeah and I uh I you know I did this other show and uh up until that I had always joked about it yeah you know that first stripper that I see and U I was talking to this guy and

he asked me and I was like I looked at him I was like well screw it man why not and I told him I was like yeah I absolutely loved her and uh she contact me after that oh yeah first time I've got to talk T her since U 2006 yeah and just sent me A message and I told her I was like I'd like the opportunity to apologize to you that's it I'm sorry I did everything to you uhhuh so uh but she's doing good in everything from what I can tell um I I

manipulated her too so I Got U Secret Service they they arrest me spend three three months in a County Jail they get me out and the night they get me out I go back into committing crime again why did they get you out to work with them I see I see so you were Making an arrangement at I I was with what way so they get me U I'm arrested February 8th of 2005 3 weeks before I'm supposed to marry this this Elizabeth and um I mean I was head over Hills with her I get

arrested she doesn't know I'm breaking the law she finds out pretty quickly once they search the house and U throw me into County Jail they let me sit there a week two a flying from New Jersey pull me out we got your laptop I'm like yeah got anything on it yeah You're going to be charged for it I figured that then they asked me is there anything you can do for us in my exact words you let me get back with Elizabeth I'll do whatever you want me to do and they said we're going to

get you out so they let me sit there for three months to get a taste of it uhhuh get out after three months first phone call I make is Elizabeth I'm out she's like I'll be there so it's midnight standing outside in the parking lot agent beside of me She had a friend that own a limo company pulls up in a damn limo pops the trunk gets out walks around to the back gets these two storage containers out with my clothes drops them comes over hugs me call me later leaves I'm sitting there balling by

this point in time agent looks at me he's like is that your fiance I'm like yeah he's like I am so sorry I'm like yeah so I didn't have any I had $30 for my name at that point he uh he paid out of his pocket to put me In a hotel soon as he leaves I take that $30 walk to Walmart by a prepaid debit card so I can start back in tax fraud then I call Elizabeth Begg her to get back and I I lay these lies on her I'm like hey it's going

to be fine I'm not going to do any prison time you've seen that Frank abigil movie haven't you catch me if you can I'm that guy and she believes that don't tell her I'm back committing crime I'm like hey it'll be just fine so move her from uh Charleston To Columbia South Carolina where the field office is and my job was to work for to 6 hours a night uh consult with the Secret Service whoever they bring in to teach them about cyber crime also Target individuals for potential arrest now were they paying you for

this they were uh they were paying 350 a week plus they were paying rent all the utilities right so nothing compared to what you had been making and but you have do you still have money in Estonia at this Point I do but I can't get it okay well that's the problem with having money in B all the way over there can't get it so um start uh it what happens is is four to six hours a night when I'm online I'm I'm really fast for things I'll have 20 30 windows open I'm bouncing between

them all the time now they've got Camtasia Spectre Pro on my machine so they've got me on a laptop hooked up hooked up to a 50-in plasma monitor on the wall outside internet Line they are two agents in the room all at all times with a South Carolina law enforcement official they've got their desktop computer literally next to mine outside line as well for the first two to three weeks they're diligent they're paying attention to everything asking questions everything else after that they get bored because how could you not be you don't even understand what's

going on with right right right so they start there was a site there used to be This site called flash your.com they start looking at women who are exposing their breasts and rank them on a scale of 1 to 10 and they spend most of their nights doing that so I'm sitting there going nobody's paying attention to me all the data every night's going on a DVD why not so I start breaking the law