Lessons From the Mystic Jesus with Marianne Williamson - Terri Cole

the mindset of the 21st century is different than the mindset of the 20th is the mindset of the 20th was different than the 19th we're rethinking everything we're rethinking education where we thinking business where we thinking politics where we're thinking medicine and healing and food and religion and spirituality is just one more thing where we're going okay what were we given from the past that's good that's helpful that we'll take with us and What needs a real deep rethinking and where do we need to cut the cord with what was well hello there and welcome

to a very special episode of the Terry Cole show I am talking to Maryanne Williamson about the state of the world and her new book The Mystic Jesus the mind of love and in this conversation many of you know who Maran is I'm going to talk a little bit about her in case you don't but for more than four decades Maran Williamson has been a leader of spirituality in Progressive circles she's the author of 16 books four of which have been number one New York Times bestsellers and a quote from the mega bestseller a return

to love which is the book that I read that introduced me to her work our deepest fear this is the quote our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure and it goes on right and that quote itself is considered kind of an Anthem for a contemporary generation of seekers and I do in some ways consider myself in that category because I specifically remember when I read a return to love and that quote in there and I can go on about the quote and in fact

I'll probably put it in the show notes I remember I would print print it out and hand it to my therapy clients 15 years ago when I read this I was like remember that it's your right to take up space and your light is the thing that gives other people permission to shine their light and anyway so a lot of the work especially the early work of Maran really spoke to me and where I was in my life and it was like this this very hopeful messaging and what she's doing in this book is basically

taking the it it's more talking about the Mystic Jesus rather than the the traditional historic like like it's reclaiming the lessons that there are to learn from what we hear about Jesus because it seems like this figure this historic figure has been co-opted so I see it as learning and applying to Modern Life some of the this ancient wisdom and a lot of it is influenced by A Course in Miracles so you know I I just invite you to listen and enjoy this episode of the Cherry Cole show with an open mind and an open

heart even if you're not Christian even if you're not Jewish even if this sort of isn't your thing I think that there will be something in here for you at least I hope that you enjoy it super excited to welcome Maryann Williamson to the Terry C show hello Maryann welcome thank you it's a great to be here it's an honor thank you for having me sure thing we've been trying to get it together back and forth lots of different things so I really am super psyched for this conversation I want to start with and I

sure maryan that lots and lots of people who interview you tell you this but your work has been very instrumental in my own work as a therapist as someone who wanted to be of service to other people and actually long before I actually became a therapist and started doing this work I was reading your books and was very influenced by um so much of it and yes our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure is something that I mean literally the whole entire thing years

ago I would print it out and give it to therapy clients and be like this remember this truth it's okay to shine it's okay so I thank you it's an honor uh to hear you say those things and I appreciate the acknowledgement thank you so much sure um okay so I'd love to to sort of start with like your your history your life there there's a lot of this it's been very public and people know about it but I'm interested from where you sit if you were a Marvel movie character like the origin story what

is your origin story that got you where you are now like what what inspired ired you to want to help other people you know when I hear a question like that we're all different people obviously none of us are better or worse than anyone else the course of Miracle says all of the children of God are special and none of the children of God are special so I come from a middle- class Jewish Family I had a very typical growing up in certain ways uh my father and my mother were both very uh service oriented

people MH and then what I went through in my college Years is what everybody was going through at that time of counterculture and I think that I simply began to mature as everyone does so I think if there's anything interesting about my human origin story it's that it's on a certain level Garden variety I think it's what happens inside us where our origin is all the same I think my soul has always yearned for something more than what we see here but I think everybody's does so the origin story that most interests me now is

our origin in something higher and bigger than ourselves and what we're all yearning for in ways that don't make us different nobody everybody has a story and some of them are wow that could be a movie or wow that could be a be a you know book character or something but at some deeper level somebody whose external story might not seem like much has the same things going on right there there's a sameness so with the book your your latest book that came out in May of 24 the Mystic Jesus the mind of Love is

the name of the new book so I'm curious let's I want to talk about the book but also what inspired like why that book and why this year Well you mentioned earlier um a a paragraph from my book a return to love uh you mentioned that one paragraph that's become well known I always say to people if you like the paragraph you'll love the book there's so many paragraphs it's just one of many things in there that are reflections of the principles of A Course in Miracles yeah this book in a way is a sequel

to that it talks about the same principles in many ways but it talks about them within the context of the character of of Jesus which I have found being in the higher Consciousness and personal growth and transformational Community has been almost a verboten topic we don't go there now I'm Jewish so I don't have anything on it it just wasn't the book we read right and so for me as a Jew it's almost been more odd why do we talk about why is it okay to talk about Buddha right why is it okay to talk

about Krishna why is it okay to talk about Indian gurus I just thought it was a weird omission and I understand it of course because the institutional organized religion of Christianity has in many ways not in all cases but in many cases so narrowed the image of Jesus as the course of Miracle says some bitter Idols have been made who him of him who came only to be brother to the world he has become like something in a musty glass case inside an old Museum and when I read the Course in Miracles first of all

the language being Christ centered language as a Jew I was like oh no you know this this I don't read this and then very quickly you realize it's not a religion right it's a a spiritual system self-study system of psychotherapy where it's a dismantling of a thought system based on fear and the acceptance instead of a thought system based on love it talks about Jesus but not a Jesus that can be monopolized by any religion not as the historical figure who lived 200 years ago and who definitely did this is not to in any way

disrespect that story or or or or the religion that has been built up it's simply to say that we are living at a time on the Earth where we are now we're not only at the beginning and we're no long even at the beginning of the 21st century we're into it it's time to start thinking like it the mindset of the 21st century is different than the mindset of the 20th is the mindset of the 20th was different than the 19th we're rethinking everything we're rethinking education we're rethinking business we're we thinking politics where we're

thinking medicine and healing and food and religion and spirituality is just one more thing where we're going okay what were we given from the past that's good that's helpful that we'll take with us and What needs a real deep rethinking and where do we need to cut the cord with what was a a civilization individuates groups individuate just like an individual does so the issue of the authorship of A Course in Miracles and the role of Jesus in it was always interesting to me but the course of Miracles is not trying to get us to

believe in God it's not trying to get us to believe in Jesus the course is belief is ultimately meaningless but a universal experience is both possible and necessary so it was actually my publisher who approached me with the idea of this book and they said we keep hearing from book sellers that people come in asking for books about Jesus that are not necessarily tied to the to the Christian religion and I in my whole 40-year career my career has been you know the the denomination called the unchurched but a lot of people reject and understandably

the doctrines the dogma of many organized religious institutions that don't want anything to do with that but then walk away and go wait a minute I threw away the baby with a bad water I didn't mean to disconnect from God I meant to disconnect from that dogma and doctrine that I'm not so sure I think even is a true reflection of a loving God that's where books like the course of Miracles come in and this is a book like a return to love which Dives uh deeply into the material there and in this case uh

the role of Jesus as a as an internal teacher uh as an evolutionary elder brother uh and as a spiritual force of Consciousness non-exclusive the cor says he's not the only name on that door right and uh that can be related to is as a as a force of Consciousness uh without specific religious connotations yes I I do think that it's been you know Jesus Christ as the figure has been co-opted by Christianity and so those of us in any kind of a public life I mean you're you're doing the brave thing I think in

in sort of bringing this to the for and talking about what does it mean and how can we relate to like why not the wisdom the material whatever it is that that there is for us to gain from because there's almost this knee-jerk reaction and I have it myself of like not not wanting to it when you're in a public life be talking about this as a religion or like you know what I mean like you you will you know that there's going to be people whatever side whatever thing you talk about someone is going

to have some kind of have a problem with it but I feel like religion itself becomes this very polarizing situation so I love that you're bringing in a conversation that's like not about that it's about the wisdom but I think you're also pointing to something that's very problematic in our country I remember somebody saying to me once when I entered a uh entered someplace and he said okay we're not going to talk about religion or politics okay and I thought well that leads me out at dinner Americans are left to feeling the only thing we're

permitted to discuss is basically pum people are so afraid to have any real deep authentic conversations in this country about things that matter in anything other than the most private settings and so you go to therapy to have can I get real can I get deep yeah I think there there's some truth to that yeah real and deep shouldn't be just for one hour a week right and it's it's almost dystopian yeah and and the the polarization and I think think that this coming back together in this what is what you're talking about is having

more of a unified experience where can we have a conversation can we get more real with the people in our lives and if we can't what what is it that we're talking about like how do we want to live at least that's what this conversation and reading all the stuff that you have here is bringing up for me well I think uh nonviolent communication skills yes and also people who have awakened to the fact that we have got to get out of are silos yeah uh this is insane at this point you're only going to

talk to people who you already know agree with you about everything the polarization you know I think there are millions and millions of people of Goodwill who don't really only want to talk to people who agree with us about religion or spirituality or or politics or anything else but are almost afraid to go there in certain situations because you don't know what people are going to say I was at a Russia Shana dinner the other night but um not everybody at the table was Jewish and it wasn't about religion but rather it was about politics

that there was a real Divergence and we were like yelling at each other and it was like you know what it was it was a fun dinner party yeah it was no yes no you're doing the no yes and then at the end one one gentleman said well which one of us is right I said we're both right we both get to be right this is America nobody has a monopoly on Truth nobody owes it to you to agree with you and you know we if you think that only you know truth nobody else has

anything to add to contribute to your thinking right what kind of life is that so Unity comes from the fact that they have a right to an opinion and this goes into the course in the spiritual we have been trained and that's really the really the message the course of Miracles is that we've been trained since by since a very young age to judge to attack um to defend rather than to love and to embrace and that's really the core message of Jesus isn't it to love and then a lot even in our field love

yourself we become more into loving ourselves and loving each other it's getting ridiculous at this point you know the course of Miracles says do not look to yourself to find yourself for your not there you're you're not you're not in in isolation our ultimate identity is in relationship and so to me Jesus and others are guides to that deeper ability to be present uh when another person is is just existing in your presence MH and wishing them well and thinking less about what you're going to get from this more about who you're going to be

in the space yeah so that another person feels permitted and even encouraged to speak their truth and shine that Namaste Consciousness and uh whether it's Jesus or any other practice yeah um spiritual religious secular whatever it is in every area of Our Lives we're losing out tremendously because we're also afraid to we're afraid to speak to one another so from from the book can you give us some examples of metaphysical psychotherapeutic interpretations of traditional Christian terms okay throw one out and I'll tell you so being saved excellent okay there's only one thing to be saved

from our own fear-based thinking because every thought has an effect every thought has an effect right so the the world of course of Miracle says is dominated by a thought system based on fear and the message of the course of Miracles is that we can dismantle that thought system based on fear and accept instead a thought system based on love when we are caught in that thought system based on fear based on the belief that we're separate from one another and we maintain that sense of Separation by attacking each other defending thinking I'm better than

you thinking I'm worse than you thinking your ethnicity or your sex or sexuality or nationality Makes You Different rather than realizing our Oneness that produces depression and anxiety called hell that's the metaphysical meaning of hell not later right now salvation is save me from this way of thinking that I'm so locked into yes yes okay so what about righteousness what what about the things that we do to be righteous okay righteous means right use right use of the Mind means that I'm here to love you and not to judge you or blame you I'm here

to forgive you rather than uh than hold on to this grievance against you I'm here to support you rather than undermine you that's righteousness I'm here to try to be the best person that I can be in any situation love it uh what about the notion of and this is I think this is more Catholicism than Christianity but original sin okay another interesting one so sin this is this is my favorite game after all because this is really what all this is about there's an archery term sin it means you missed the mark so this

is a little more multi-layered the course of Miracle says that you are thought in the mind of God and that God is perfect therefore nothing in his mind can be imperfect that means you are on the spiritual level of your ultimate identity you are perfect as you are in this world it gets complicated truth is simple living on this planet is very complicated we all get confused and we all have moments when due to our wounds due to our triggers due to our past whatever we don't in that instant know how to love and get

our needs met so we disconnect even Freud said that this Neurosis you know can be used in the service of the Neurosis that there's a disconnection from self and our own intelligence can be used in the service of the Neurosis when we disconnect from love we say something unkind we go into a situation and we're selfish we're something other than love that is a miscreation and a misuse of the mind now God doesn't see that as a sin to punish you for because in God sees you as you really are which is a perfect innocent

child that that file cannot be deleted from the computer of your mind because what God creates is eternal and indestructible so God doesn't see it as a sin he would punish by sending you to Hell the part of the Mind the ego fear-based mind that led you to act that way yeah LED you to hell because of the remorse and the guilt and the pain that you feel because of its consequences God sees that as a mistake to correct not as a sin to punish and that in the course of Miracles is called the difference

between sin and error you made a mistake right I sinned is an entirely different metaphysical and psychological construct then I made a mistake I can atone from my mistake I can make amends from my mistake and I can uh try to be a better person now is there any good ones that I missed that you can think of how about Christ yes how about and holy spirit oh yes okay which one this like a fun game it's like one a TV talk show or something Holy Spirit let's start there Spirit okay so the course of

Miracle says so that's going to actually bring in the Christ interestingly enough so the course of Miracle says as I'm mentioned already that we are ideas in the mind of God and an idea cannot leave its source so you are the extension of Love on this earth that is who you are but living on this Earth which is dominated by a thought system that tells you you are who you aren't and that you aren't who you are we disconnect now what is that essential self that is the truth of who we all are one word

for that is the Christ K Yong the Swedish psychologist said if you go deep enough into your mind and deep enough into mine that there is mental imagery we all share which you called archetypes right yep the notion of the Christ mind is if you take it one step further not only are there mental uh images or archetypes in you and in me that we share CH if you go deep enough into you your mind and mine there's only one mind it's like the spokes on a wheel we identify with the rim but if you

take them all down to the center point The Hub there's only one point of that's the real origin story that I was referring to that's the real origin story which is the truth of who we are and the yearning of life is to get back to the truth of who we are in that moment of disconnection which the course Miracle says occurred millions of years ago although in reality it never even occurred because only love is real but it's a hallucination that is as powerful in their effects as is the truth and that's three-dimensional reality

in that moment God being perfect has the answer to every problem the moment the problem occurs but love would not force you back to love because love does not force in that moment the course says God created an alternative in your consciousness that is a gentle Bridge of perception an internal guide in any moment oh my God I'm not at peace something's going on here something's Loveless I did the wrong thing or I I'm feeling bad or I don't know how to fix this or blah blah blah the only real problem is that you're separated

from the truth of who you are because the universe works like a GPS took the wrong path out of loving thought it'll recalibrate just return right then and that's what the holy spirit is is be still and know recalibrate now all the great religious systems the these are not truths you know there's one truth spoken in many different ways so you could name any of the great religious or spiritual Traditions these same principles yes are presented just in different language yes it's interesting that you said that because I was thinking I've done quite a bit

extensive studying with Zak choer over the last 30 years and I was thinking when you were talking there was a lot of what were saying that was making me think about oh deepok would talk about this from the point of view of the illusion of separateness well that's the language of the course it it that this world of disconnection is an illusion and it is based on the idea that we are separate from each other you're over there and I'm over here uh me that's course language that the only real problem when you talked about

original sin the the the meaning of original sin is the original thought that we are separate yeah the original that we are separate and because Illusions are as powerful in their effects as is the truth and every thought has an effect all kinds of evidence for our separation is presented to us in every moment my thought tells me you're I don't even know where you are California are you and I don't know where you are Terry where New York okay you're in New York I'm in Washington DC I mean this material world obviously exists the

message of the spirit is that Beyond this world Beyond this world of the ultimately destructible the world of the body there was a trer world in which all of us are one which by the way is another place where the the language of the Course in Miracles is so different than traditional Christianity most uh traditional Christians look at the line there is only one begotten son and take it to mean Jesus is the only begotten son yes but from a course or Miracle minded perspective there's only one begotten son means we're all in right because

there's no place where you stop at I start there's only one of us here right that's why if I attack you I'm attacking myself the course says if I have a judgmental thought towards you imagine a a sword dropping on your head and no it's actually dropping on mine Dr right so is the message of Jesus is it as simple as being more loving well it goes back to something I said earlier you could say yes but life is complicated yeah so to say that it's simple love one another the rubber meets the road when

it comes to The Human Condition and The Human Experience the course of Miracle says Enlightenment begins as an abstract understanding yes love forgive forgive uh love Mercy do justice walk humbly with thy God as it says in in Judaism yes however the course says then you take a journey without distance from the head to the heart um you and I are talking right now and you're being kind and you're being respectful therefore uh my staying loving Goodwill all this is easy enough it's easy enough with people who are being nice to you yeah the issue

of love one another is how did you do in that situation where it wasn't so easy and that's what life is life is a the course of Miracle says each of us has a highly individualized curriculum uh where we are constantly it's like kids in school you're you know the teacher is always going to give you a lesson a little bit uh beyond what you've already achieved and that's how you grow and that's how life is life doesn't always respect your comfort zones and in some ways it busts your comfort zones and that is the

work of the Holy Spirit the universe is intentional and um it's always always it's a gentle nudge and sometimes not such a gentle nudge to be better uh and do better than you're doing now the course of Miracle says because when you were talking about righteousness the course of Miracles talks about right-minded thinking which is loving thought uh and there and that any Loveless thought is a misc creative use of the Mind Free Will means you can do that but what you don't have the power to do is diminish the power of your thought to

manifest so the course says there is a limit Beyond which the Son of God cannot miscreate that's what's happening on the planet right now we can't continue like this The evolutionary stage that we are at is unsustainable for the survival of the human race and that's why as individuals as we're going through all this we are upping our capacity to be used not only as individuals but in relationship with one another to heal the changes that need to be made uh literally for our species to survive yes all right so in mystical terms um what

is the crucifixion and what is the resurrection because these are such prominent themes okay okay crucifixion there is the loving mind the Holy Spirit and then there is the mind that has separated from Love and that in the course is called ego now I know that that's not the way all psychotherapists use it for instance I had a my an early therapist in my life talked about the positive ego and the negative ego this is using it the way um the ancient Greeks used it which is the notion of the small separated self now this

is the thing remember when I said that for said intelligence will be used in the service of the Neurosis the part of my mind that believes it's separate inertia means the tendency of the object to move in whatever Direction it's been moving there is no such thing as a neutral thought the course says so if I'm not proactively seeking to love you the mental image mental energy that I am withholding from a loving experience with you will then be used in the service of fear that's why the course says every thought you think takes you

and those around you straight to heaven or straight to hell hell and heaven not being something afterwards after we die but right here right now when I'm loving it'll be peaceful when I'm not loving it will not be peaceful and that is what the crucifixion is it's what the ego mind would make of any situation it's self-sabotage attack of others attack of self and it externalizes in the things we go through in life that are painful but our Consciousness once again there was that 3 days between the crucifixion and the resurrection just like there was

the 40 years and the journey From Slavery to the promised land of the Israelites in the Old Testament that 40 years that three days means you're going through the crucifixion now you're sick you're going through a divorce you're you're bankrupt you're whatever the horrifying pain is but your Consciousness while on the cross while in the a phase of crucifixion will determine how long it takes to get to the resurrection which is a Return To Your Righteous thought sane thought and ultimately inner peace some people want to hang on to that cross you know he divorced

me 25 years ago but I still haven't forgiven the bastard well right the universe would love to give you new Love and new relationships but your grievance that you're holding on to is deflecting the miracle and that's why forgiveness is the key to everything so Resurrection is the new beginning Resurrection is the fact that the universe will Rec calibrate will write itself but once again I'm not saying it's always easy we have to honor our human emotions Jesus wept we have to honor the T time and the tomb but on the other hand what what's

really amazing is when the women went to get the body from the cave from the tomb they were told by Angels he is not here he has risen that is so brilliant psychologically because what that means is you're not going to even be the same person you were before you went through that you're you're the you that that that was hurt like that the resurrection is that's not even who I was that's not who I even Am anymore I mean the psychological Dynamics in all of those stories are just so beyond amazing what I love

about the book and about what you're doing is that there's a lot of Hope and I think that you have in your own way with the books that you've written over the many years 16 books I think you have maybe more it's like people are looking for Hope and looking for the possibility of the resurrection of for us in the US the country itself but a lot of people personally too and I think that going through the pandemic there's a lot of things that we've been through that have been very heavy and I feel like

this is a time for hope so you guys if you are listening if you are watching the book is the Mystic Jesus the mind of Love by the great marann Williamson Marian tell us what you're excited about right now like what are you excited about what am I excited about I don't think I'm excited right now so you well first of all I've had to do my own healing work after having been through a very brutal experience MH and I'm very concerned about our country I'm very concerned about the world there's a part in the

course where it says the purpose of your life is to be happy so I understand when I'm at the highest level there's a quite a kind of mature Joy that isn't necessarily excited M you know we have this happy happy happy uh cheap yellow smiley face thing and if you're not happy do you know suppress it nullify it all the stuff that you I'm sure know well in in your line of work but I think that there's a kind of grown-up Joy uh a grown-up Joy at being alive a grown up happiness at seeing my

little 16-month-old grandbaby uh that I get when my daughter sends me the videos or the pictures or I see her on FaceTime or friends call or people who love you you know obviously I I'm a human being I you know I love to be loved and I love to love and all that but it's a more sober happiness and I can appreciate even like when I said about watching my 16-month-old granddaughter right I had a conversation with my daughter's mother-in-law because we were both finding ourselves just gazing at the baby she said yeah it's called

granny gazing because when you're a young parent you're busy yeah right you're just busy is she okay is he okay if they eat do the diaper needs to be trained but when you're a grandmother you just so yes that's what brings me joy is seeing things and that are an expression of the human spirit and but it's excited it's a different word it's yes does that make sense it sure does and I super appreciate you spending all this time with us today so thank you thank you thank you for everything that you've done Mar and

I really do appreciate your big beautiful brain you guys the book is the Mystic Jesus the mind of love thank you so much