História da Grécia Antiga #18 com Donald Kagan, de Yale

The oath establishing the thirty-years peace was worn in the year 45 at 4:45 and that leaves as we know of course they didn't about 14 years before the great Peloponnesian War will break out and although we only know a little bit about the events between the two wars what we do know I think is interesting although not easy to interpret evidence about the character of that piece which we've been talking about one way to Determine whether the piece was a true piece with a real chance of lasting and controlling international affairs for a good long

time or whether it was really a truce that merely interrupted a conclusion to a war that was inevitable I think that can be tested to some degree by the events that took place in those 14 years or so I think we became one critical question of course is a quite apart from the objective elements of the piece maybe more important than Those are the intentions of the two sides and I think it is perfect it is possible to arrive at some sense of what that those intentions were there's little doubt that Pericles still in the

position of the leading politician in Athens clearly the man who was the I think the the negotiator for peace on the Athenian side if I'm right about his invention of the arbitration clause that would suggest he was very much personally involved in shaping the Character of that piece it seems plain that he really was sincerely committed to a policy of preserving peace for the future for as far as it could possibly go one reason is that several years before the piece indeed before this war had broken out the Athenians had made a peace with the

king of Persia the negotiator on the Athenian side was a man named Kali ass and so it goes down in the books as the Peace of Callias This is about as debated a subject as there is in the history of ancient Greece was there really a Peace of Callias or not was it a formal peace or not even in ancient times some writers questioned whether this was a historical fact I won't trouble you with all the arguments both ways but let me let me indicate my own opinion is that there actually was a formal peace

but it doesn't matter whether that's true or false because Nobody doubts that there was a de facto peace between the Athenians and there are lies on the one hand and the Persians for a good long time and that it is not broken until well into the great Peloponnesian War when in the year 412 there is a treaty made between Sparta and Persia which brings Persia into the war against the Athenians so there's this considerable stretch of time when there is peace with Persia now about the same time rough of the year The traditional date for

Peace of Callias is 449 and about the same time we are told only by Plutarch so some scholars have questioned the historicity of this - that Pericles called for a great pan Hellenic Congress to discuss a variety of questions but one of them was how shall we keep the Prem promises we made after the Persian War to rebuild the temples to the gods that had been destroyed by the Persians in that war And how shall we see to the Freedom of the Seas now the question of course the the temples of the gods that had

been destroyed in the Persian War were essentially all in Attica so that here was a an occasion where ever the Athenians alleged were apparently hoping to bring all the Greeks into the picture to help pay the costs of restoring those temples it wasn't Athenians who would benefit from it most but also maintaining the Freedom of the seas meant providing for a fleet that would keep the Persians out and keep pirates out and so on the Athenians obviously had that fleet the result of having that if the Greeks at all in fact participated in this activity

it would have been a way of legitimizing both the Athenian Empire and of course the Navy that made it great but also it would have legitimized the plan that Pericles had in mind in which we know he carried out to the best Of his ability immediately to rebuild those temples and indeed to build some new ones as well on the Acropolis and elsewhere in Attica as evidence of the greatness and the glory of Athens this building program was going to be at the center of his domestic concerns for the rest of the period we're talking

about he invited all Greeks but as it turned out the Spartans and their friends chose not to show up you can see why for the reasons That I in fact just given you as to why this would be attractive to Athens that's why it would not be attractive to Sparta there is some debate did Pericles ever expect that the Spartans would accept or was this just his way of making it clear that since the Spartans and the other Greeks would not participate in these activities Athens was right in going about it unilaterally one of the

things that it would do if the Athenians were now to say well this When the Spartans didn't show up and their lies didn't show up they said if they won't keep their promises to the gods we will that provides justification for building the first of the great temples he was going to put up on the Acropolis the Parthenon which was going to be the great marvel of the Greek world thereafter and which was going to be very expensive and which he was going to use League money for this would Legitimize it he hoped and it

would be an argument for doing that as for the claim that they needed to preserve the Freedom of the Seas that would be give legitimacy to the existence of the Athenian of the great fleet of the league which was paid for by League money in other words it would give legitimacy to the Athenian Empire no doubt he thought that was necessary because having made of either that's why I like the idea that he did Make a formal peace with the Persians but in either case with it being obvious that there would be no more attacks

on the Persians that the and that the Persians were out and that they were not a threat anymore why should the Allies contribute their ships and money and by the way by this time most of them were not contributing money and the Athenians had meant were Manning all of the fleet why should this continue if the war with The Persians was over Pericles never imagined that the Athenians would give up their fleet their empire the tribute that supported all of that so he needed to have a reason for doing it so my view and that

of many other scholars is that the Congress decree as it is called certainly had that as a motive was he serious what would he have done if the Spartans had said sure we'll do that I think he expected that they wouldn't but he was prepared To have them do that because if they would they would contribute the money presumably that was necessary and they would also grant legitimacy to what the Athenians were doing with their Navy at sea and of course it would be a wonderful situation because it would create a kind of a unity

between the two that would help keep war away and Pericles is plan for using all of that money from the Treasury for his building program required peace if the Athenians Were going to be at war that money would not be available so for all of these reasons he did what he did my guess is he he anticipated the likely outcome and that but it doesn't mean that he was unprepared to deal with the situation if it had been otherwise there I think we see the first bit of evidence that leads to my opinion that Pericles

was very sincere about preserving the thirty-years peace that he saw that and hoped it would be the instrument by Which there would be you know who can talk about perpetual peace but at least the peace for the foreseeable future another event that a much debated one that cast some light on what's going on occurs in the year 443 in that year the Athenians agreed to help establish a colony in southern Italy at a place that they called Surrey I now there are several things about this colony that are interesting and perhaps as interesting as any

is that it was Different from any other colony we ever heard of in the Greek world before this time you know the picture of what a typical up boy Kea is like it is the colony of a city and that city is its mother city and you know all about those relationships there were rare occasions where a couple of might get together and jointly be the mother cities of a town but that's all this colony was established from the first as a pan-hellenic colony in other Words it was not an Athenian colony even though the

Athenians took the lead in establishing the colony even though the Athenians appointed the critical players in establishing the colony the founder the Orcas was an athenian pericles sent along the leading seer the leading religious figure in all of athens to be helpful in the founding of that city Herodotus a good friend of Pericles who also of course was the father of history went out there presumably to be the Historian of the new city what's an epidemis the great city planner of the 5th century BC who was famous you might not think this is such a

big deal but it is he applied simply right-angled streets in founding the new city when of course all the old cities had been founded as I described Athens itself with streets that just developed out of old cow paths that just wound all over the place so the modern grid structure was the work of hippodamus all Of these guys were friends and associates part of the brains trust you might say of Athens under Pericles and and these guys went out and established a colony of three I all of these elements are interesting why a Panhellenic colony

well it for one thing I should point out too that Pericles had seen to it that the membership of the colony consisted of people from a variety of places and it's interesting to point out that although the Athenians Had the greatest single number of people in this new colony when that colonies Constitution was drawn up but I forgot what's the name of the Sophists Pythagoras laid out the Constitution for this new city again he was a friend of Pericles hmm it was divided up into ten tribes just like Athens it was a democracy the Constitution

was very much influenced by the Athenian model and as I say one of the ten tribes and remember the ten tribes have to be equal in order For them to present the necessary regiments in the army only one-tenth of the people were Athenians even though there were more Athenians than anybody else but there were several tribes made up of Peloponnesians not from one particular city but all from the Peloponnesus I make those points because I want to make it clear that if you just look at the percentage of the population occupied by Athenians it will

not allow them to dominate the city this really is A Panhellenic colony why my view is that Pericles was attempting to make a very significant point here after all this this colony was established in reaction to a request he made by some Italian Greeks who were having trouble in their own city needed to found a new one needed more people in order to make it viable went to Sparta the Spartan said we're not interested went to Athens to the Athenian said yes we'll help you do this now the Athenians could have said No or they

could have done the normal thing if they wanted to say yes make it an Athenian colony why did they come up with this brand-new idea that nobody had ever seen in my view it was because Pericles was glad to have an opportunity to demonstrate something about Athens intentions now and in the future that was the best way to advertise the fact that the Athenians not interested in expanding their power out to the west because if they had been They would have made it an Athenian colony other scholars have taken the opposite view and think it

is the sign of Athenian imperial interest which would have said practically the day after the treaty was signed Pericles and the Athenians were already violating the spirit of that treaty but I think that is easily demonstrated to be wrong all we have to do it well first of all what I've done already is to look at the internal character of the state and you Want to argue that is not the way to start an imperial venture in the West set up a colony that's not your colony and that has only got a tenth of its

population being Athenian but other evidence I think makes it all the clearer only a year after the foundation of the city it went to war against a neighboring town the town of Tara's which became the Roman town of Tarentum modern Toronto Terrace was one of the only Spartan colonies so here you have a Spartan colony fighting against an its surrogate Leah whatever that is imagine for a moment though it were an Athenian colony as the people of a different view say what does Athens do I think that's really critical the answer is nothing tarus defeats

Thurio then to rub it in they take some of the spoils of victory and place them at the at olympia whether you where the games are held where all the week's can come and see in which they boast about their victory over 30 What do you think these do about all this nothing this is not the way to behave if you're planning to start an empire in Sicily and southern Italy so I think that's a very serious blow to the theory of imperialism out there and then a few years down the road we get to

the Year 434 3 the crisis which will produce the great Pinet Peloponnesian War has already begun so everybody is looking ahead to the coming war between Athens And Sparta at that time there is a big argument breaks out within 3 I whose colony are we once again a terrific indication that nobody thinks it's an Athenian colony right off the bat although in the argument the Athenians claim well it's an Athenian colony I mean the Athenians in Syria I say we're in this alien colony because there are more Athenians than anybody else whereupon the Peloponnesians say

yes there are more things than anybody else But there are more Peloponnesians in there are Athenians so we are a Peloponnesian colony we are a Spartan colony well they couldn't agree and so they came to the decision that they would allow Apollo through his Oracle at Delphi to decide well that's an interesting thing too who does the Oracle at Delphi lean towards we've had very clear evidence of it in the 440s they are pro-spartan the spartans have been the defenders of the Priests as against the phocians from the outside there's every reason to believe a

decision made by the priest of Apollo will favor Sparta and if that's not what happens though but the priest says you are not an Athenian colony and not a Spartan colony you are my colony says Apollo very nice way out of the fix but one thing they're not is an Athenian colony now what are those imperialist Athenians do about it nothing to my mind that absolutely undercuts any claim that Athenian Imperial the West explains what's going on out there but why what's going on out there altogether why did he establish it at all why did

he establish it in the way that he did and why did he react or not react in the way that he did my suggestion for which there is no ancient direct evidence is it was men specifically but to use a current modern terms this was a diplomatic signal Pericles wanted the rest of the world And most especially the Spartans and their Peloponnesian allies to know that Athens did not have ambitions of expanding their empire onto the mainland or out west I think what was understood by the thirty-years pieces the Athenian Empire as it exists in

an editor I'm sorry in the Aegean and its front boundaries and to the east in the direction of Persia that's the Athenian sphere of influence again to use a modern term everything to The west of that the Athenians are going to stay out of and leave alone and my view is Pericles delivered that message in his behavior in concerning theory I agree and he would have known I believe that the number one state who would be concerned about what was happening out west would be Corinth because the Corinthian chain of colonies and the corinthian major

area of commerce was in the West Italy Sicily and such and so it was the Corinthians I think whom to whom He meant to send this message and in a little while we'll see how that works out how that whether it worked or it did not but it seems to me that is the only way to understand these events that I have been putting together but having said that I remind you that other scholars don't understand it that way this takes us to the year 440 when another critical event tests the piece the island of

samos is has been an oligarchic regime it has been One of the biggest states in the empire it is it has been autonomous that is to say it has its own fleet its own government which is again oligarchic not democratic the way most of the states are when the Athenians conquer them but they and in that state there is a rebellion it comes about because of a quarrel between the Samians an island I reminds you very close to the coast of Asia Minor and the town of my Letus that famous city of philosophers which is

Just across from say mosque and in between the two on the mainland is a very small town called tryi me and each town each one of these states claims Craney so it's a classic quarrel between Greek police about territory that's between them now this presents a very special problem for the Athenians when you think about it on the one hand the Athenians hardly want to get into a fight with say mas an island of great power and importance with whom they have Been associated for a very long time on the other hand how can the

hegemonal power of an alliance allow the big fish in the Alliance to eat the little fish which is what would be happening here that is in unacceptable if you're going to remit to have a proper hegemonal relationship with these folks so the Athenians tried to sort of split the difference as best they could they offered to serve as arbitrators in this dispute and thereby to avoid war Say mas would not hear of it the same means of course expected to be my leaders and they would have done that they were in the process of doing

what they were doing asserting true autonomy as against the Athenian version of it in the past but the Athenians couldn't permit that it's again one of these confrontations in which each side from its own perspective has right on its side but these two concepts of right are inevitably in conflict and problems Occur well the Athenians when they are told that the Samians are turning down the arbitrator's and they're fighting against them i lesions Pericles immediately puts a fleet together and sails across the sea and puts down the rebellion by force and then he takes the

steps that the Athenians have typically taken against rebellious States over the last decades that is he establishes a democracy put an end to the previous regime he takes hostages from the Rebellious aristocrats or oligarchs and settles them on a nearby island to be sure that these people will behave other than that he imposes on them an easy settlement he does not do any great huh just does not do any harm to anybody doesn't execute anybody doesn't take away people's land doesn't exile all kinds of folks he doesn't do that and so his expectation and I

guess his hope would have been that that would be that from now on same us would be a democracy And therefore reliable and friendly and there would be no further trouble the the hostages would help make that secure but the defeated oligarchs did not accept defeat they went to the Persian satrap inland from Ionia his name was possessed knees and asked for his help and he gave it he sent a force and the first thing they did was to go to the island where the hostages were kept take those hostages back and return them to

their friends and families and Thereby took away this restraint against further trouble and now the Samians overthrew the democratic regime that had just been placed in power and started a an oligarchic revolution now that's very serious right away but more serious than that is on the news that this had happened the city of Byzantium which became Constantinople which became Istanbul located at this vital strategic place on the Bosphorus also rebuilt we Are told later on in facilities that at some time and he doesn't date it there the island of Mitylene ii of another one of

these big independent important states with with a navy also was thinking about rebellion and i mean i go along with those scholars who suggest this is the time when they were doing their thinking so athens is suddenly confronted by a danger that they have really not faced before on the one hand their empire may be in general rebellion Soon if this thing spreads secondly the persians have actually taken an aggressive step against the athenian empire by assisting the Samians in their rebellion now we don't know and the athenians couldn't know whether Persephone's had acted in

accordance with the instructions of the great king or at least the wishes of the great king or he was just running an independent operation the the first would be a very very serious problem indeed it would Mean a major threat from Persia the second would still be moderately serious I think we have to we can because there was no time for Persephone's to consult the king in everything is happening bang bang bang and it takes months to get to a message back to Souza where the Great King lives so it's in the first instance with

Persephone's is certainly acting on his own the question is does he does he really know how the king will react or Not we can only guess about that but here we go there are two two parts of the Trinity that will mean disaster for Athens if we look ahead to the Peloponnesian War and examine what was it that defeated Athens and put an end to their empire it was the combination of rebellion in the empire assistance to the rebellions by the Persians and the third critical step of course was that the Spartans were also in

the war and ready to and in fact they did invade Attica and fight against the Athenians on land and it's that third critical element that is decisive right now here in 440 the Spartans call a meeting of the Peloponnesian League to discuss the question of should we make war on the Athenians at this time and that would consist of invading Attica and had they done so we would have had as I say what was necessary to defeat Athens in the great war now we know later on when the final crisis in 432 and 431 433

actually Is when the speech I've been referring to it takes place a critical part of the story of bringing on that war was the attitude of the Corinthians as we shall see the Corinthians in 430 starting in 433 at least began agitating for war and their agitation I will argue played a critical role in bringing the Spartans to fight what do they do now on that occasion when they were on the brink of war the Corinthians went to Athens and tried to argue the Athenian Out of taking steps that the corinthians thought would push the

war into reality and they said this why when the Samians revolted from you and the other Peloponnesians were divided in their votes on the question of aiding them we on our part did not vote against you on the contrary we openly maintained that each one should discipline his own allies without interference now that's critical what they're saying is there would have been an agreement to Go and attack Athens we stopped it was their assertion now that statement cannot be a simple outright lie because the Athenians and everybody else in the Greek world by now would

have known what happened in that meeting possibly they're exaggerating their role but what they cannot be doing is misrepresenting the position they took against the war with Sparta my question is why were the corinthians and who was so annoyed by the athenians remember me it was there The Athenian aligns with Megara against Corinth about 461 and 462 started the Peloponnesian War and as Citadis tells us was the source of the hatred of the corinthians for the athenians and yet here we are in 440 and they are making a critical position against the war my answer

to that question is thorry i I believe that when Pericles and the Athenians sent that diplomatic message the Corinthians received it thought they understood it and it changed their Policies so long as the Athenians stayed out of their bailiwick they were prepared to preserve the peace so I think that's a very important story if you agree with that analogy piece was very rigorously tested in 440 and piece one out over a tremendous temptation to go to war that leads me to believe that peace was possible and I would argue still further that having passed this

great crisis having passed this test chances of peace Were better than ever because the two sides had acquired reason to trust the other to behave by the rules as they had been established there is one small point but which turns out not to be so small which I'll come back to which is the Corinthians interpretation of precisely what that piece meant I think will turn out to be not exactly what the Athenians thought that it meant and that would be serious when we get down to the final crisis but in 440 my assertion is The

same in rebellion demonstrates that war is still not necessary what has been established in the minds of both sides this I think is perfectly clear is what we would call in the modern world a balance of power in which the two sides recognize the other really as equals where each has established a sphere of influence out of which the other is to stay and that this is a satisfactory the Spartans you know the issue about the Spartans and the argument about their Behavior at this time he comes down to this one scholar wants to emphasize

the fact that the Spartans even thought about going to war against the Athenians and if that hadn't been true there never would have been a meeting of the Peloponnesian League that's true he takes their decision to call the league as evidence that they had decided to go to war and were talked out of it by the Corinthians and their alliance that's not the way I see it I think that the Spartans in 440 were in the same position they were in or I will argue they were in at the beginning of the Peloponnesian War divided

uncertain the more aggressive Spartans were tempted by the terrific opportunity the same in war presented the more conservative and traditional Spartans were reluctant to start another big war against the Athenians and the the Hawks had enough power to compel them to consult their allies but how they relize reacted was Going to be decisive and so I think that my reading of it is that the conservative Spartans were normally the majority of the Spartans and it took a very special set of circumstances a special set of conditions that to move the Spartans to war and the

Corinthians saw to it that that was not going to happen be warned that all of this is a matter of interpretation there is no certainty about it and and and through cities Himself who I think and most people would agree thinks that the war was going to come anyway regardless he doesn't express opinions about these actions that I'm talking about as to whether they did or did not influence the course of events but we have that evidence and we have to use it and think about it my conclusion then is after the Athenians are now

free to put down the rebellion at samos and at Byzantium to restore their empire and they will use The remaining years before the final crisis to strengthen their control of the Aegean Sea and have their empire in the East again some scholars who think the war inevitable will say this strengthening of the Empire was in fact itself a growth of Athenian power and that seems to me to be a great stretch of the understanding of that word what it is is a consolidation of what they already have and there's no evidence mm-hmm That the these

actions that I'm talking about frighten the Spartans or upset them and and that's worth a lot because we hear plenty of complaints about what the Athenians are doing in the Final Crisis and but nobody makes any reference to these events that some scholars think show Athenian growth hmm so there we are again a crisis has been overcome my argument is no reason in the world why the two sides should fight each other in In the absence of some new thing that changes circumstances that brings us down precisely to the final crisis so I've been telling

you the war is not inevitable so now I have to tell you why did it happen and that's what I'll try to do it starts where facilities of course truly begins the story having told you the story of how Athens came to be an empire how Athens and Sparta came to divide Greece between them in that first Portion of his history in book 1 we get to what I think is chapter 24 in the first book where he suddenly moves to where the crisis begins where does it begin it begins in a town called epidamnus

eGain which is located on the western shore of the Greek Peninsula on the Ionian Sea it is trying to remember what was the oh yeah it was cold was it to rock him Curtis is that right yeah kenta in Roman times was called to rock him it was on a an Important road system that they had but in Greek times it was out nowhere is what I'm trying to suggest to you it was not even on the way to anything very important it was always reminded me of the term that Neville Chamberlain used when suddenly

war threatened about a place in the middle of Europe called Czechoslovakia and Chamberlain said about it a place a faraway place of which we know nothing I would have been embarrassed to say that Even in 1937 but it's really something about epidamnus I mean it's it's out way out there in the middle of nowhere as far as the Greeks are concerned nothing is important about epidamnus itself this is one of the many occasions in which great Wars start in places that are inherently insignificant but certain aspects of the situation make them significant in this case

the most important aspect was that epidamnus had been founded by course cyril the modern Island of Corfu located not too far to the south of epidamnus by the way I should have told you that the town of ancient epidamnus today is in Albania and as I can't pronounce I don't know how Albanians pronounce things but my best attempt is Jewish but I'm not sure that's right D you are R es anyway the corcyraeans established the colony there centuries ago but Coursera was a colony itself of Corinth but as I told you early in the semester

it was a Very unusual colony its relations with the mother city were most unusual they facilities reports that the first trireme battle in all of history was fought between corinth and corcyra in the seventh century and there are repeated wars between corinth and corcyra just about one a century sometimes more frequently and it's very clear that by the time we are into the fourth 30s these two cities Hate each other and they hate each other with a traditional hatred hand it on down from century to century mmm this is a very critical part of comprehending

what takes place here anyway sometime maybe around 436 a civil war breaks out within the city of epidamnus and what is not unusual by now in the Greek world it's about Democrats versus oligarchs and the one side has control of the city the other side is driven into exile the Exiles get help from the Barbarian tribes in the neighborhood because we're really talking about the frontier of the Greek world they are not surrounded by fellow Greeks they are surrounded by non Greeks so there they are when the people who are besieged send a delegation to

their mother city coursera asking for help from Coursera in bringing peace to the city and in putting an end to the siege which they are experiencing it well the Corcyraeans are not interested their answer is no way we don't want to help you there's no evidence they care about which side wins they are simply being they see no point in getting involved themselves okay an important part of the story of Coursera and its significance in the coming of the war is that it was neutral towards everybody it was not a part of the Peloponnesian Confederation

it was not part of the Athenian League and it Wasn't associated with anybody else in fact it had a reputation if you can believe the Corinthians of being terribly uppity and unassociated with anybody I guess if you asked the core serene he might have used Lord Salisbury's term for Great Britain late in the 19th century as enjoying splendid isolation it wasn't too many years before Lord Salisbury and others realized that isolation wasn't so splendid as they Thought and so it was with Coursera but for the moment of course serene saying what the hell cares who

wins your stupid Civil War take a walk so they did well and I should say they took a boat ride they went to Carnes now this demonstrates an incredibly important principle of human behavior what do you do if you go to mother and you ask her can I have the keys to the car or whatever it is you need and she says no you go to Grandma you know what grandma Will say right you know the old story about the grandmother who somebody brought suresh's up tells the grandmother your grandson has just taken a neighbor's

child and throw him out of the third thrown him out of a third floor window grandmother says bless him such strong hands so the corinthians react as grandmother might that is to say they agreed to send help to the besieged epidamnus they also agree to send an army which the first state will Send a fleet then they'll send an army which will go there as well and they are they also are willing to Colin recolonize the city because of course the city is now divided between two sides so if they're going to if the people

inside are going to win the war ultimately they're going to need new citizens they're not going to want to take back those people trying to kill them so the Athenian the Corinthians Organized a new colony to join them in other words they give them kind of help that anybody can imagine now if we look for a reason why the Corinthians should have been willing to make this enormous contribution to this far away argument scholars have had a field day for centuries trying to figure out what the tangible benefits are with absolutely no luck there is

no evidence of that is persuasive at all that there are Economic benefits to currents that are significant if they somehow have control no matter what style control aim of epidamnus and so I think we are driven back as we should have been driven in the first place to through Citadis explanation who himself asks the question and answers it about the whole quarrel between Corinth and Coursera and he refers simply to the hatred that the Corinthians felt towards the core Suri's when you get to that passage take a good Look at it because facilites understands that

we're all going to raise our eyebrows a bit and so he tells us the tale why is that so he says because every year the Corinthians hold a religious festival in their city to which all of their allies send delegates this is very normal and all the other delegates treat them as you should treat a mother city with deference with respect with gratitude with kindness what do the corcyraeans do they abuse Them publicly they they call them names they treat them like dirt they insult them in front of all of the in front of the

family so to speak and therefore the Corinthians hate them and out of this furious dislike that that is what their actions are about this has made scholars in the modern world very nervous they understand that there are only two things that make people fight one another one of the well yeah that's Pretty much what they used to say now that I think and many of them still do ones in the face of what we see in the world today one is money that is economic gain I'm saying we can thank Marx for that and for

a whole century or more people couldn't understand that people ever do anything for any reason except for a monetary gain there isn't anything in this to explain it it just won't do no scholars have failed and attempting to Show how that might be true the other has to do with power you know relationships if you if you have this state on your side it will give the balance of power to you and so on but the truth of the matter is epidamnus is essentially irrelevant to the ordinary struggles of power between these two states Corinth

and and Coursera course IRA won't be poorer it won't be weaker if the Corinthians have epidamnus nor is there some kind of a tremendous Strategic edge if you can launch your attack from epidamnus rather than from someplace else no no there's no reason to doubt acidities about this this is about honor and it's about dishonor now does that sound very remote who cares about honor in the 20th century 21st century what what kind of nonsense is this I will tell you that you and everybody around you and everything you see in the world today is

motivated more frequently especially conflict but other Things too the way you lead your luck is influenced more by considerations of Honor than of anything else if some and I'm let me put it in the way that's most helpful in this context it's really the negative that's important more important than honor his dishonor people hate to be dishonored they hate there was a wonderful slang word that now tells the story wasn't available when I was a kid the thing was available but the word wasn't available if I say to you he Dissed me do you know

what I mean do you think there's a danger to your teeth if you dissed the wrong guy do you doubt that that sort of thing motivates individual people constantly and I can show you and already shown the world that it motivates nations constantly today not only 20 years ago or five hundred years ago 2,000 years ago that's what the acidities is showing us here this is a very important permanent Truth this is why their cities is so superior to modern political scientists studying international relations they don't understand these things and Thucydides did so that I

think is what is happening and when it becomes clear to Coursera that Corinth is involved that they are looking for a fight and that they have dishonored Coursera by taking over one of their colonies the corcyraeans are on the one hand angered but on the other hand they're frightened Because current is a great powerful state and more important than that Corinth is one of the most significant allies of Sparta if the Corinthians are giving us grief the coastal regions could think this is a prelude to having the Peloponnesian League come after us and that is

not something you want to happen so the corcyraeans asked for a conference with the corinthians and they come and say let's let us find a way to make peace over this issue let's see how We can negotiate a peace the corinthians are adamant they say you want peace this is what you got to do you have got to withdraw your forces from the city here you are be besieging the city and let me see if yeah they're right because the corcyraeans have come with their fleet they have defeated the you know I've been I always

get this so backward see if I've got this right what are the courser Ian's doing Curtis are they on the side of the guys inside or outside You remember they're on the inside yeah that's right but they have now their armies are in the field and their Navy is on at sea against the opposition to the folks are inside the city and so the Corinthians say you are you were fighting these people and you're asking us to talk peace while you're fighting these people you withdraw your people and then we'll talk peace well of course

that would give the advantage to the other side and the kerkorian said no way And said tell you what we'll withdraw our people if you withdraw your people Corinthians said no way I think what comes out of this back and forth is important it's it is that the corcyraeans are not looking to expand this fight they want to end it not because they're peaceful and loveable fellows but because they're afraid of where this thing will go we are now dealing with another term that came into fruition in the 20th century escalation Is what these guys

are afraid of we got this little fight going on here but next thing you know we may find the Peloponnesian League involved but the Corinthians clearly aren't worried about that and that's going to be a point we have to cope with they write the current the corcyraeans say look if you don't work this out with us now we may have to seek allies other allies besides those we already have well Thucydides has told us they don't have any other allies but Who are these allies that they're going to seek that's a real question somebody tell

me half is of course I wanted you to tell me because I want to emphasize how obvious it is nobody could have missed the signal this is a threat we know you Corinthians are playing as tough as you are because you're counting on the Spartans to assist you well if you do we will ask the Athenians to help us and then what and so the situation Goes for the corinthians are not bluffed if it was really a bluff and on they go if i should point out that at this meeting the corcyraeans said they were

willing to submit this quarrel to arbitration I remind you again not mediation to turn it over to a third party and have them settle the question the Corinthians turned that down I think that alone indicates who wanted war and who wanted peace at this point the other thing is that it should be remembered That the thirty-years peace provided that neutrals were free to join either side that had signed the thirty-years peace so that when they were implying and threatening an alliance with Athens they understood that the Athenians were free to accept them into the Alliance

without breaking the thirty-years peace that would be a considerable issue as the problem grows more difficult well there is no peace and so the two sides organized their navies the Corinthians Did not have a large standing Navy in peacetime and they set to work to put one together in 435 there is the Battle of Luke kindy which takes place between the Corinthians and the corcyraeans and the corcyraeans win Corinth is not deterred now they really go to work and they build for them a vastly consisting of 19 ships on outside of Athens and they do

turn not in an official way but unofficially to their Peloponnesian allies asking them To contribute help too and their Peloponnesian allies send another 60 ships and so the Corinthians have available a total of a hundred and fifty ships the Kurt the Corsa Rhian fleet consisted of a hundred and twenty ships they did have a fleet that they kept at all times and that had given them the confidence in advance to do what they had done but here was Corinth suddenly outnumbering them in this way Coursera was now Thoroughly frightened they knew that Corinthians would be

coming after them again with a fleet that was bigger than theirs so they went to Athens in September of 433 and now I ask you again to imagine yourself sitting there on the panics in Athens in September 433 what as the course Iranian ambassadors have come to your town they're going to ask you to join in an alliance with them for the purpose of fighting the corinthians and their friends the corinthians who Have heard about this sent ambassadors of their own to athens they are present on that same hill and they will make their case

as to why the Athenians should say no to that request vicinities reports his version of both speeches there's every reason to think he was sitting there in the Athenian assembly on the days in which these discussions took place the essence of the course areion argument is that well here are the issue here are the points they make Corinth is wrong it is not a breach of the thirty-years peace for Athens to accept the corcyraeans into their alliance because neutrals are permitted then they go through a lot of stuff to show that the Corinthians are bad

guys making arguments on the grounds of morality and virtue and decency and obeying the law and all kinds of stuff but it's clear that that's not what's on their minds they are talking about basically they try to convince the Athenians on the grounds of the significance of their decision for the balance of power and essentially the balance of naval power in the Greek world they in passing they make the point that Coursera is very well situated for a naval or I mean for a sea voyage to Sicily in Italy where the Athenians and others are

always wanting to go so you want to be on our side that's not really a very potent argument because no town no polis shuts its ports To any other polis except in wartime so it's only when they mention that they only have to be talking about why it's valuable to be allied with Coursera because and this is their most powerful underlying argument there's going to be a war don't kid yourself Athenians is what they are saying and when that war comes you're gonna want to be awesome even I want to have us on your side

in part because of our convenience our strategic location on The other hand more powerful is the fact we have a hundred and twenty ships if those 120 if we lose if you let the Corinthians beat us our ships will fall into their hands and then they will have a much mightier fleet than even the one they have put together and now your unquestioned dominance of the sea will be challenged that's what's at issue and don't imagine that this is just anybody's imagination this is going to happen the war is coming an enormous Amount of what's

happening here has to do with your perception of whether war is now inevitable and whether or whether by by restraint you can't preserve the peace that's the problem that the Athenians face it's a terribly interesting one because it happens so very often on the Brinks of wars when that's the issue that determines what people will do and how they react if they don't think that taking a certain Action on something they don't think the war is coming anyway they may very well decide to refrain from an action that might provoke a war if on the

other hand they think war is coming thanks they feel that it's too dangerous not to make our capacity to win the war more likely and so they may well take a step which makes the war more likely and they're both Gamble's nobody knows for sure one way or another you have to make an estimate and that's always the way it Is unless you are simply an aggressive state and all you want to do is conquer you don't care about anything else you're always trying to figure out will it be safer to fight or not to

fight will it be safer to try to make a concession or will that make it more dangerous those are always the issues always the problems one of the great imbecilities that I discover all through my life as people are contemplate going to war at different times in our time is The quiet assumption unquestioned unexamined that restraint the failure to take action is safe taking action is dangerous whereas our experience even in my lifetime has demonstrated that's often wrong nothing could be clearer to me and I think that most people who studied the subject that not

acting against Hitler as he took one step after another to rip up the Peace of Europe was the most dangerous thing they could possibly do far more dangerous than Confronting him early as his 1936 when he invaded the Rhineland and that's not the only case of it just sit there's no simple rule sometimes it's wiser not to act and sometimes it's wiser to act but it's never clear which one is more likely to produce peace and safety and that's what the Athenians had to wrestle with on that day the Corinthians responded to the argument of

the corcyraeans denying their picture of things they said in fact if you sign up With the corcyraeans now you will be in violation of the thirty-years peace what they were saying I guess been in the abstract was don't worry about the letter of the law of the treaty because that clearly permits an alliance the spirit that counts they say surely nobody imagined that this decision would be made at a time when one of the people who are the neutral was asking you to join in was already at war with one of us surely nobody had

that in mind There's certainly right nobody did the question is on the legal point my guess is the Athenians had the better of the argument it says in black letter law it says you may take a neutral if a neutral asks you for an alliance there's nothing that says except that when that mutual is attacking us it doesn't say that on the other hand who in his right mind could imagine it would be okay to do that so that was one issue that the Corinthians spoke to but they they made Another point that was legalistic

as well and this one I think the crisis the Corinthians is much worse they said the principle established in the thirty-years peace was that each side could punish its own allies without the interference of the other side now as a matter of fact it didn't say that but the other thing that's wrong with that statement is it's one thing for Athens to punish Samos which is an ally and ask and the Corinthians say fine that's your Business we want it to be but kar Saira is not the ally of corenz in fact they are bitter

enemies of yesteryear there's no part of that treaty that protects the Corinthian right to attack core sorry so it's a great argument if you don't look at the validity of the facts that are alleged Carmen's got a very bad case here but they're really important argument is this a currency the corcyraeans say the war is inevitable Well it isn't if the fact is they tell the athenians if you were smart the thing you would do would be to join us and together we'll smash the corcyraeans and then there's no more problem but if you don't

do that at the very least refrain from joining them because then we will be friends and then we will have peace in the future but make no mistake about it if you do accept the corcyraeans into your alliance now then there will be war war is not inevitable But your action can make it inevitable so that's what the Athenians confront when they have to make their decision again the drama of this is so striking I want to be sure you conceived of it they are sitting there all everything I've told you so far has been

said on the same day and now the Athenians start talking about what should we do it's the same day the people who are sitting on the Penix if the day is clear as they used to be In Athens just about every day can look out across an Attica to the north and they can see that area into which the Spartan and Peloponnesian army will march and start destroying their farms three days from now but possibly if a war starts and who is going to be doing that fighting out there we will those of us who

were sitting here voting whether to go to war or not I'm always struck the immediate the immediacy and the Significance of what these guys were doing somebody tell me this is not a democracy please so it is of course the same kind of thing they faced back in 461 when they had to decide whether to take Megara into the Alliance again there are significant differences but the issue is very much the same they can't be sure maybe if they back off and refuse the Alliance maybe that will be the end of the problem and they'll

live happily Ever after on the other hand if they're wrong about that and the corinthians take over this fleet suddenly they will find themselves vulnerable in a way they have not been since they put their empire together I always find it illuminating to me anyway and I hope to you as well to make an analogy to Great Britain at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century Great Britain at the beginning of the 19th a sort of in the middle and after in the 19th century Cantwell had the greatest Navy in

the world without question it was the greatest power in the world it had this enormous empire that it ruled and it had looked it's it's vulnerabilities were mainly against France and Russia who were two Imperial rivals in the areas that the British cared about most and they typically they at a certain point they decided to make their fleet to be the size of the next two fleets put together in order to feel Secure in case a war broke out and that's what they did everything was fine until Kaiser William becomes the Emperor of Germany and

towards the end of the 20th of the 19th century decides that Germany must be a great naval power it must be a world empire it must challenge Britain for that opportunity and they begin to build a fleet of battleships whose only purpose can be to destroy the British fully and to Allow the Germans to invade Britain and thereby or best of all to intimidate the British into stepping aside and allowing the Germans to do what they want to do as soon as the this becomes clear to the British as soon as the Germans start building

that fleet it is not yet strong enough to defeat the British fleet and the British enter into a naval race to see to it that they don't get to be big enough to take out the British fleet but it's very costly the British don't like It they try to find every way they can and what they do is completely flip their diplomacy which has dominated their behavior for over a hundred years and they make an alliance with France and Russia to see to it that the Germans are checked and prevented from doing what they're planning

to do I think that does help to understand what the what the Athenians are doing when you are as in the case of Britain an island state as in the case of Athens you might as Well be an island state because you are dependent on imports for your food supply and the command of the sea is essential for acquiring that in such a case it is not an a light thing to permit a change in the naval balance of power which may make you seriously vulnerable in case of war the point I want to make

is that the British didn't wait until the Germans had equalled their force they changed their policy and ultimately moved into war to prevent It and that's where the Athenians I think found themselves it was something they were not willing to do but it was a very hard call and we are told that they argued so long that it got dark before the decision could be made facility says it was thought that they were inclining against the Alliance when it got dark they met again the next day and this time they voted for something a different

from what they had been talking about the day before what the Corcyraeans had been requesting was a typical alliance the only kind we know of between Greeks a Sioux mafia an offensive and defensive alliance it would have required the Athenians to go out and fight the corinthians even if the corinthians didn't attack course IRA it would have put them fully at war against the corinthians that's not what the Athenians voted on the second day they voted on the proposition that they established something called an epi Mahia which means a defensive alliance only they would only

fight against an enemy with that enemy had attacked course IRA and was in the process of landing on their territory and so that's finally what the Athenians did that was the vote they took once again we have something unheard of before a device which is in a way largely a diplomatic device meant to have consequences on thinking rather than immediate military results so I say it's got to be Pericles But I feel better this time because Plutarch says it was Pericles even though through Citadis doesn't say who made that proposal it was clearly what Pericles

wanted because he holds to it very very firmly in both directions both in terms of the limits that he's this puts on Athenian action but on the determination to take that action no matter what what I suggest to you is that we are going to be dealing from here on in we've been dealing with in a General way anyway but now it's very clear this is Pericles policy I assert it is a policy intended to keep the peace and here again we run into a problem in our own time in which sort of the normal

reaction of people is if you want to keep the peace what you want to do is to be a nice guy what you want to do is to make concessions you want not to frighten the potential enemy you want to show that you have no ill-will towards Him and then reason will prevail and you can all have a nice chat and go off for tea of course that's not the way it is at all one way always that has been used by nations in the hope of keeping peace is through the opposite device of deterrence

where there isn't any hope of coming to a happy agreements because if there had been you wouldn't be in the spot you're in now all you can do is try to indicate to your opponent that he will not achieve the goals he seeks if He launches a war against you and so that requires that you be very strong militarily strong and strong in the way in which you negotiate on the other hand if that is your goal deterrence then you also want to be very careful not to behave in such a way that is too

frightening that indicates the opponent that you are likely to defeat him if he allows you to be as strong as you would like to be you want to be avoid taking an action that will make him lose his Rationality that will make him so angry that he will forget about these questions of success and failure he'll just say I'm going to get that son of a gun and then I argue is the policy that Pericles pursued an attempt at deterrence and moderation at the same time to frighten the opponent by his determination out of thinking

that can do what they want without a danger of war but also to avoid inflaming his Anger in the short-run what happens is that the Athenians send to assist their fella there of course we analyze a fleet of only ten triremes there this is inexplicable in my view except in terms of this the strategy that I have suggested what he's doing is sending really not a force but a diplomatic message he is telling the Corinthians you have been counting on the fact that we would stay out of this well you were wrong we will not

allow You to defeat the courser Ian Navy because we find that unacceptable and dangerous so we're sending this force to help the corcyraeans not because we want to fight you but because we want you to see that we're serious about this don't start the fight well the Corinthians sail air fleet against course IRA and there follows a battle at sea called the battle of sybota and facilities describes the battle itself very tough battle the Athenians are I'm Sorry I haven't told you one thing you need to know the Athenians will line up at one end

of the Corinthian the course are in line with their ten ships the commanders of that fleet are determined as well those ten ships are commanded by three generals that's a lot of generals for 10 ships but one of them who is the chief figure there is lasted ammonius the son of Keemun well of course he is clearly seen by everybody else as not one of Pericles his boys not a stooge of Pericles he's an independent and what else what's his name mean mr. Spartan now if the Athenians get drawn into that battle and the command

that we should do so is done by less of ammonia's then of course that will not have the effect of dividing the Athenians but it will make it much harder to divide the Athenians it will be much easier to say all Athenians even those who have the kindest attitude toward Sparta thought that this was Unnecessary step which I think was aimed not at Corinthians so much it was aimed of course at Athenian politics but I think it was aimed at the Spartans too because then if the Spartans were then asked by the Corinthian so look

what happened come in and help us against the Athenians they would have to face the fact that even less of demoniac thought this was necessary it's the same game all of these are cagey moves by Pericles to pursue his extremely complicated Tricky kind of strategy and I see that I have run over my time so I'll pick up the tail next time