From Worst Sales Team to #1 in 9 Months

[Music] Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And today's conversation is with Marcus Chan. Marcus Chan is the CEO of Venley Consulting, where he helps sales teams Discover 2 to 10 million in hidden revenue by installing revenue operations systems. His clients have generated 950 million using this framework, which is pretty damn impressive. Now, I've known Marcus for a while now. We're both

on the Salesforce uh insiders or sales blazers group and we got to finally meet a few years back at Dreamforce and him and I share a very similar approach to sales. A lot of it is rooted in grit and hard work. And so that's where we Started with Marcus. We talked about his upbringing as an immigrant family and how he had to work I think at like I don't know 6 years old or something like that in his family's Chinese restaurant and vowed that he never actually wanted to be an entrepreneur. uh and then got

into school and marketing and had a similar track to me but started to realize that he actually fought about sales like I'm not in sales for a little while and then finally accepted the fact That he was and even when he would didn't really think he was in sales he was turning companies around like Cintas one of the worst performing groups in the organization he turned to one of the best and so we talked about how he did that the frameworks that he used how to give feedback to cuz again I I think we've all

gone soft these days and and feedback direct direct feedback is one of the best and only ways that we can really develop. And so how he does that And does that, you know, with with some tact, but also without, you know, beating around the bush too much. And we just got into a bunch of really cool conversations about managing growth. You know, he's actually going in a slightly different direction than I am with his he used to do B TOC all the time and now he's all in on B2B. I'm all I was all in

on B2B forever and now I'm kind of trying to really figure out that B TOC with my new uh membership platform. So, Lots to unpack here, lots of knowledge. Hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. >> Marcus Chan, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast, my friend. How you doing, >> dude? John Bear's my man. Always a pleasure because we have the same haircut and we uh we're pretty direct guys, too. So, it always it's always a fun conversation. >> Yeah, I think this is going to be

a good One, man. We've been How actually I I was thinking about it. When did we actually meet? Do you remember when we actually connected the first time? Because I know it's been some years and we're, you know, the sales force stuff, but I I don't remember actually when we met. Do you have do you remember that at all? >> I think let's see. We did virtual stuff for sure, right? I think probably during COVID times when we probably met Virtually, but then I think probably Dreamforce a few years ago in person, right? >> Cool.

>> And uh it's funny because you and I are the same person online that we are offline, which is great to see. >> Yeah, that's >> So now you see you see a disconnect, right? Dude, I tell you, I I was just having this conversation this morning like about authenticity, right? Because I'm, you know, Instagram and all this trying to tell my story and it was like authenticity and and I just I can't wrap my head around why authenticity is a is a differentiator. It's like it's like a superpower because to me it's so much

harder to be full of [ __ ] >> Oh yeah. >> You know what I mean? Like it's just >> Oh yeah. >> Takes too much effort to be full of [ __ ] >> You have like remember the lies you make. Like I I tell my wife I'm a terrible liar. Me too. you know, like because I just like I just say as I can't remember lies. I'm not going to be a liar. I I just like I have a poor memory. >> Yeah. >> Easy to be straight. I don't know. >> Yes. >>

Well, we're going to talk about like the direct factor and feedback because I Think that's going to be the theme of this one. Um I think you're seeing some of the same stuff I'm out there right now. Uh wrote a post recently that went wild on it. But before we get into that, Marcus, origin story, my friends, I know you got an immigrant family. You sold some cool [ __ ] You got in. So walk us through kind of what made Marcus Marcus. >> Yeah, 100%. So first off, thanks for having me on. It's it's

a pleasure as as usual. But uh you're right, he came from An immigrant family, right? Parents came from China and Taiwan. Came absolutely nothing during the communist revolution. He came to America. Nobody hired him. They started a Chinese restaurant. So I got the pleasure at the age of five to start working the restaurant at a very young age. And uh I grew up just working my ass off right with them the whole time. And uh I remember like as I got older, I'm like, man, I never want to be an entrepreneur. I never want to

do my Own thing. This is the worst. How can I find a way to maybe like make money with my brain or my skills, right? And um so when I graduated, I got into B2B sales. And this is in the last recession, so this is like 2007, right? And uh I I I grew up working hard, so I think I'd be pretty good. I wasn't. Almost got fired pretty pretty good rapidly. Was one of the worst reps. Eventually figured it out. Had some pretty good success. Got promoted a number of different times. End up worked

for two Fortune 500 companies for 14 years. Um, in my first eight years, promote 12 times in my first eight years. Hit number one every single role. Last role for last for four years, ran an org of 85 employees. We did over 200 million a year in sales every single year. Um, had a lot of fun doing that, you know, won all the awards, did all that stuff. Then eventually went started my own business in 2019. And that was scary but fun. And Uh we dove in head first helping directly first with AEES helping them

crush their roles and then scaled to B2B teams and uh fast forward has been six years and man here we are now we're talking. >> Love it man. Let's talk um I didn't I didn't pick this one up. What what was your major in college? >> I was a marketing and Chinese major. >> Marketing and Chinese major. Okay. It so walk me through that thought process. I Know the reason I went into marketing cuz it was default cuz basically I I went like my first cuz I didn't know what the [ __ ] I wanted

to be. Right. So, I was like, my first my first uh major was art and I was like, whoa, apparently I'm not that good. Right? And I can't make any money. Right? Then I went into like engineering because my dad was an engineer. Whoops. Nope. Calculus kicked me in the right. Um then science. I was like a biologist cuz whatever. No. And Then I kind of looked at marketing. I was like, "All right, this this seems a pretty easy." And b it kind of combines a lot of the skills that I had. So, how did

you was was it a default or was it a purposeful decision to go into market? I wish I could say it was purpose, but it was not. So, first off, you know, when >> I mean, when you who what what 17-year-old kid knows what they want to do in college? I mean, for the rest of life, suppose. I had no idea. >> Ridiculous. Yeah. >> So, like, I was actually a pretty artsy kid. I love to draw. And my parents were like, "You should be an architect cuz artists are poor." >> I'm like, "Exactly." Yeah.

Good advice. >> All right. That seemed to make sense. >> So, I actually went um I filled out the whole application to go to architecture school at the University of Oregon. I was actually going about to turn it in and then my parents were like, "Hey, Listen. one of our customers like come to the restaurant. He's actually an architect in town. Got a pretty big firm. Join a job. That'd be great experience for you and maybe add to your application. I'm like that sounds great. I go and I check it out and I realize I

completely hate it. Like I I thought it'd be like you know late nights on the drawing board and like building stuff. No, it was all done on computers even that time. So it was all on software. I'm like this is not what I expected. So literally just trash the application went undeclared, right? And then I'm like well I need to probably pick something because of those pressure for my family. I'm like, "Well, I already speak Chinese, so I can probably learn how to read and write, so I'll probably get an easy A." So, I'm like,

"Pick that first." >> Yep. >> And my parents are like, "What are you Going to do with that?" I'm like, "I have no idea." I'm like, they're like, "You should probably go into business." I'm like, "Yeah, sure." But I looked at business. I'm like, "Well, economics looks really hard. Uh, you know, like you know, you know, like stats looks really hard." I'm like, "Finance looks really hard." I'm like, "Marketing looks pretty easy." >> Like, let me let me go that path. So, I'm like, I guess I'll just be a Marketing and Chinese major. So, I

had no idea I was going to do with that, but I'm like, let's just go see what happens. >> Love it, man. So, then where did you catch cuz you I mean you're even growing up, I noticed like you you're a chef, you're a swim coach, you you know, all these different things. >> Yeah. >> What what and the entrepreneurial gene was there even though you might not have Seen it and you probably revolted against it. When did it click that sales was like when did you catch the sales bug like oo this is this

is what I like. This is what I want to do. >> It actually took me a long time. So it probably took me um let me think for a second. So it probably took me about nine years into my sales career before I realized it. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. So I don't then why was it a Necessity? So again, let's go similar probably stories like I got out into the real world with my marketing degree and I looked around going e >> I don't want any of these [ __ ] jobs. And by the

way, none of them paid me enough to pay back my student loan. Like all these type of things. So I'm like, hey sales, I heard you can make some money in that. Let me let me try that [ __ ] out. Right. And then that's where I just kind of fell into that too. So what Was the shift between like you graduated and then those nine years talk to me about those nine years cuz most people if they don't love it those nine years don't happen. It's like in and out in less than two years

like [ __ ] this job. Like I I can't do this. So why did what was the transition and then why just stay for nine years without loving it? >> Oh yeah. So it's interesting right? So you know when I was going to school um I knew I was supposed to get an Internship. I'm like I should get internships. That's what I should do. And you know when you're in like college, you have no real skills. I I don't really have a focused degree. Like you know, I can't really get the great internship. So I'm

going around at the career fair looking around and just seeing what's out there. And the first internship or that I got was an enterprise rental car at the time. >> Nice. >> They had this sales and management internship. I'm like >> management, right? Yeah. >> Okay, that seems interesting. And I'm like, "Oh, cool. I get to learn how to run a business. There's sales, there's management, there's a P&L." I'm like, "This sounds interesting. I'm like, let me just do it. And for me, there's this weird thing where I was so used to like literally like

uh uh working at either like food festivals like in like 100 Degree heat, you know, getting sweaty in front of a grill all day or working a hot restaurant. I'm like, I get to wear a shirt and tie. Wow, this feels this is already an upgrade. I'm like, I already feel awesome. Right now, little do I know, you're just watching cars in a shirt and tie in the in the in the hot heat now, right? But I started to learn how to like you know to sell and basically sell insurance people coming in right and

doing upgrades but also I Learned how to run a business. So I would study the P&L with my boss and really understand operationally how they made money and how the business actually ran and that was really interesting and I was actually pretty good at it. So like you know my first year one intern of the year had the high sales I was like even out all the full-time employees they're like who is this kid? came back for a second summer because I I did a five-year program because I Studied abroad and had also another banner

year and then and then I'm interviewed. It's my super senior year. I'm interviewing all these different places. I really don't know what I'm going to do. So, I'm I'm like I'm like, you know what? I should probably go these management training programs. They love they love people like me. Uh poor kids who grew up gritty who can work really hard and just do whatever it takes. So, I started interviewing and I End up getting like five different job offers. I'm like, "This is kind of awesome, actually." And um and they would range from like um

like a 30k base like a 60k base from like you know banks down to like you know it's like to enterprise etc. And what was really interesting was at this point um enterprise actually started a brand new truck division in Oregon. So it's a complete startup and the guy overseeing it was actually the area manager who Hired me as an intern. So he came to me said hey listen Marcus we have this huge opportunity here like this is a brand new market like we have zero customers. this is different than what you've been doing. No

one's coming in to buy insurance upgrades. You need to go and basically help grow the business. And I'm like, "Oh, that's interesting." He's like, "You could be a pioneer in this and help me build it from scratch." >> So, he really sold the vision to me, Right? >> I got in. It's a sales job. I had no idea, but I was sold by the vision. So, I wasn't like, "I'm going to sales." I'm like, I tell my parents, I'm like, "Yeah, I turned on that that 60k other job at the 50k job for this 295

base salary job, but you know what? I am building the future. This is exciting. My dad's like, "Oh my god, what is wrong with you? Why didn't you go for this job?" I'm like, "It's not sales, Dad. It's not sales. I'm building the business." So, of course, >> as you now know, everything's sales, right? >> Oh, yeah. 100%. And it was like, "No joke, like here's here's a here's the phone book. Go dial. Rip the dial. There's no training. Good luck. Go pound the payment." Right. So, um that was like how I got into it,

right? And I'm like, "Oh, man. This is like this is really painful." And I almost quit uh Obviously early on because I was no good. But you know at the time out of necessity the economy started to tank. So this is like unemployment starting to go 2007 time frame. This is like you know late summer now at this point. You know business are literally physically closing doors right out of physical territory. So I'd be like this building's boarded up. This building's boarded up. I can literally see all these like foreclosed homes. I'm like This is

like it's not this is scary. I'm like if I quit now what am I going to do? Move back home? like I I don't want to do that. So I kind of just sucked it up eventually figured out had success with it and then got the opportunity for the next several years started getting promoted where I would sell had my own number and had to lead a team. So I got to do both and still again I wouldn't have been I was in sales. Eventually I changed to a different company called CentOS Corporation which they

they sell like facility services, uniform, first aid, that type of stuff, right? Pretty big company and it was actually a two-step emotion back into sales. So I got kind of burnt out by leadership for a little bit, but also because it was also a very operational role. So we had to take everything from cradle to the grave. It was like we had to sell new accounts, bring them in, grow the account, and manage the account. So like Over time like we s we sold so much business that we were stuck with all this maintenance on

the back end account managing. So it went from like 100% new business to like maybe 10% new business and 90% like retention and growing. A good problem to have, but I hate it. I'm like I love the hunting part. I love just like you know I didn't so again I wasn't willing to admit as a sales role but I'm like let me just like take a couple steps back go a different company You know better comp structure upper mobility and let me kind of see what I can do from there right still wasn't really didn't

really want to say I was in sales or anything like that right end up sticking out for another you know several years right you another like almost 10 years right you know getting promoted up right and it was interesting because during this whole time right I'm getting promoted up I'm breaking records we're hitting presence doing all these Things And I still wasn't really willing to admit I was in sales. Like for instance, you're at a wedding and something what do you do? You know, I I didn't say I'm in sales. I wasn't willing to admit

that, right? I'm like, oh, you know, like I help businesses do this, you know, like you know, trying to trying to posture or go by title, right? Um, but it was about nine years in at that point and by by the way, I didn't realize I was decent at sales, right? Uh, I just I just worked really hard. I'm like I just have this like level of work ethic that I think most people are just not working hard and you know I'm willing to figure out I'm willing to fail forward but about nine years in

you know people start asking me they say hey listen like how did you generate these results like how have you basically won in every single role how do you keep them promoted how do you keep like you're coming in new territory you're Like you're like we're not really used to seeing this you know like like how do you do this and I'm like I don't know I think I just work really really hard right and at that point I start to realize I'm like there was certain things that I was doing that people just were

not doing they were not effective at doing and they didn't have a good tolerance for pain. And I realized by being able to kind of stick through it and eventually learn to love sales nine Years in was because I have a high tolerance for pain that I'm willing to endure like basically eating [ __ ] for a long time and know there's no payoff for a long time, which is like the classic like you know go-to instinct for a an entrepreneur, right? So at that point I still wasn't willing to be you know want to

go into entrepreneurship but that was for sure like these little seeds getting planted in my mind. And I'm like, hey, maybe I can do something more on my own. But that's kind of how I end up sticking through the for that long. >> Love it, man. And I think that, you know, look, I have a similar track. Like I I DeWalt I would DeWalt was my first job. And it didn't it wasn't sales. It was basically event marketing, but it was absolutely sales, right? I had to go around, you know, construction sites and give away

free tools and do demos and shows and stuff like that. Then I got promoted to DeWalt to to the Home Depot Team and that's where I had to take like a $10,000 order turn it into a 50. So it was sales but you know what I mean but Xerox and I was like okay this is [ __ ] sales like this brutal love >> but yeah but it you know it was funny because you know there was also a real I think I have a similar story where like work ethic I knew I wasn't the

smartest kid out there by any stretch of the imagination but I knew I could outwork everybody. So, at Xerox when I was Working, I same thing. Like, people are blowing smoke up my ass and I'm like, I I'm just doing my job. Like, like you guys asked me to do this job and this is like like I don't even think I'm going extra. I'm literally just doing the job. And but oh man, you like everything and it was so rare. So, I was like, huh. And I remember when startups really clicked for me because I

was like, okay, I remember like, okay, apparently I'm good. So, here's the job I have. Here's The next job that is after that, and then there's this job. like that. I want that one. Like, so how can I how fast can I get there? And they were like, well, you got two years to do this and two years of this and two. And I'm like, whoa, wait a minute. I'm like, that guy over there that you make fun of, like he's going to get the same opportunity for a promotion as I am. >> Yeah. >>

He's like, yeah, that's the way we work. And that's what like I just I I didn't fit in corporate and I didn't know why. And then when I got into startups, I was like, "Oh, [ __ ] Thank god." Like this is where I'm supposed to be. Let me bring you back to Cintas because you crushed it there, right? But you weren't in S. So I'm interested in this the psychology around where your head was and what you did at Cintas, not not believing you were in sales, but taking that, you know, and then turning

it into The annuity, whatever. But what when you came in, what did you what did you do different than what what was what was previously being done? And like what were like the top three things that you walked in and changed or did that were either unconventional or just not being done that allowed since you guys I mean I think the you guys crushed it right like uh sales team >> company it's a $10 billion year company Now million8$85 billion market cap >> but it was your but I mean wasn't it the the team the

worst almost one of the worst performing sales teams. >> So how did you how did you shift that culture? How did you shift that mentality not thinking even that you're in sales? 100%. So there's a few things that that built up to it, right? So first off, when I when I joined the org, I took I came in as an basically an AE and I'm like, okay, I also knew um you Know talking leadership I had they had bas kind of had a they had to really recruit me over as well. So the plan was

I would go and sell really prove I'm as good as I say I am do for a few years and then maybe in two three years I could then interview for a sales leadership role. You had to earn the stripes. I'm like, you know what? I'm good with that. That's fine. I'll make a bunch of money for a couple years and it is what it is, right? So, I I came in And I already knew the culture wasn't really great. And once I once I joined the team, it became even more apparent, right? Because like

nobody has presence club in Portland, Oregon. We're not a big market like the Bay Area or Dallas or Miami. Bunch of excuses. I'm like, that's totally fine. So day one and because I had done a bunch of team turnarounds even before this um I had realized I couldn't come in there and try to be a hot shot. I had to really Just basically put my money where I my mouth was going to be right. I didn't stop how big of a game I came in and I just started to literally execute right and they had

certain playbooks in place like they were very much numbers driven like hey here's a list of 100 dials. Go make the dials right and most average reps would just kind of do that. I mean I'll just do the extra work. I would prepare my list. I would do my research. I would make sure I came ready to go and I can just rip through my numbers. I would prioritize and tear it out. So that way, you know, once it was my call block, I can go in the right order of my hottest ones to my

coldest ones. So like, while most people just had no strategy, so I started to see me just execute the playbook in this basically a slightly different way, but a better way, right? They had their discovery. I'll just run the discovery I knew how to do, which is a really deep, more Complex discovery. So they see like oh my god like like what kind of discovery is this? But they would see how I could take someone who had a latent pain and convert to active within 30 minutes and they're like that's interesting. And then I started

to look at other things they were doing that was kind of old school. I'm like for instance they had presentation binders that was a physical this is like 200. They had these giant physical binders they wanted people to Take in and like flip through. I'm like this is like from 1939. So I I literally went and I just like I scanned and built my own deck I can put on an iPad, right? So I could walk into these presentations, do a killer discovery, whip out the iPad, show a kick-ass presentation, and just run a regular

real sales process. And they would seem like, oh my, like who is this guy? So I'm this new rookie. And then whenever like whenever I do these little Things, they weren't like they weren't rocket science, right? Like for instance, I had a call prep sheet that was consistent. So I I prepared the same way for every call the same way every single time. And they would other reps would ride with me because they were going to coach me. They they been more seasoned. I'm like, "What is that?" I'm like, "This makes it easier for me

to take my notes, but I can come prepared." They're like, "Oh my god, that's a good That's a great idea." >> It's just the rocket these simple frameworks, right? So then as I started to obviously perform and get results, it started to build like this reputation like oh but then on top of that I would like intentionally do things that are above my role. So like once I started earning this trust of everyone, they started seeing me on the leaderboards. I will go to my leadership and I would say hey listen I notice the team

seems to Struggle a little bit with discovery. I have a really simple you know like eightstep framework that I use in my discoveries. I would be happy to teach the team if you're open to it at our next training meet. Of course, my last is like that sounds great. So I would start to do these things. So naturally intentionally positioning myself at a higher level, right? And then so people started seeing different level. So then of course I would try to help people as Well that were struggling a little bit, right? And then once I

got promoted nine months in, which is one of the fastest promotions in company history and took over the team and by the way I was interviewing against a bunch of other people, right? But because I'd done a very similar transition many many times like I had a whole plan. And I show them I show them all my proof how I basically would basically lead the team. So and hopefully I became the obvious choice End up getting the role and I knew I had to earn the trust of the team. So um so what I started

to do was you know first I already had like hypothesis about how people were performing and you know my first 30 days was I was going in I need to build trust at a deeper level because I knew they perceived me a certain way. So literally I'm going I'm doing ride alongs with all the reps. I'm not coaching them. I'm just getting to know them, uncovering what you know what what They do really well, what their strengths are, their challenges, and I'm just putting together a game plan like what are the things we kind of

apply as a team to make things better. I made zero change in my first 30 days in hedge. So then once I started to figure out, okay, cool like this is when you start to do and of course identify at that point who the red flags on the team. So there are certain people I had to get off the team. So I just knew There was they're just not a good fit, right? So I started to actually have conversations with them to actually get them to other roles in the company. I'm like, you're a better

fit for these other roles. And I would sell them into other roles intentionally. They weren't producing revenue. But what happened was they were a good person, just not a good fit for the sales or that's all it was. So, I'm just kind of I'm slowly cleaning house and at the same time I'm doing and I've recruited heavily before. I'm doing eight to 10 new interviews a week and I'm Yeah. Because the they've been missing number for years, right? And so I'm like I need to So day one like I'm I'm an analyzing I'm already starting

to recruit. Like I already knew cuz I knew how long it takes to build a pipeline up. I'm getting recruiters in place and I started to like you know slowly get people out and I'm starting to bring people in. Right. So like that first Quarter we end up doing like 113% to our number which had never been done in like in like in like in like years. They're like oh my god where are you doing right now? Granted, I also took over some deals as well. And plus, there was deals for my own pipeline that

I basically handed rep to my territory that we pushed to close to help with that. But it was part of the long game, right? Cuz I started a client clean house a little bit and put the right things into place, Right? But it was a it was a kind of transition over time because I I've done turns before. It's like how can I keep the boat from rocking too much while getting the wrong people off, get the right people on. Right now, for sure, I probably got some people probably a little bit too long, right?

I just because I was trying to reduce turnover down, right, drastically. We went from like 50% turnover to zero% my first year. >> Wow. >> Which zero is actually not good, by the way. >> Yeah. I probably should I probably should have like I there was like some desperation of like I I'm like I know this guy delivered a certain number. He's not a good coach for a long term. He's not doing too much damage. I need to keep his team to kind of ease my number because we have shareholders at the end of the

day. I still need to Deliver. All right. So that's kind of how that transition went. >> Love it, man. and and I you know and even when you clean house that fast too like no matter how you do it it it the the rest of the teams look over the shoulder and >> sets the tone >> totally sets the tone. So, so with that, let's get into kind of the the topic that we we we were anchoring on here, which is feedback, right? Because as you Were going, you know, through this, you obviously had to

give some pretty direct feedback, pretty like hard conversations. And I just think right now, I've always been somebody who sought out feedback, who like I love it when you give me direct feedback, no matter how bad it might hurt, right? It's like, all right, yep, cuz I can get better here. And I always found that like if I'm ever defensive about something, it's usually because it's They're right. You know what I mean? Like because if you were like, "John, you're a [ __ ] raging [ __ ] You're not authentic and you know, you try

to screw everybody over." Like I'd be like, "Uh, go [ __ ] yourself." Like I like I'm not even going to blink on that one. But if you're like, "Hey, John, you you know, you have a challenge with accountability and you really need to hold." I'd be like, and if I got defensive on that, it was probably Because I [ __ ] know that's my problem. So for me, and sounds like you, like we look for it, right? Yeah, I think there's there's the top per performers always. Like I use Brady as the perfect, you

know, Tom Brady as a perfect example. Like >> he was the greatest >> of all time. I'm not even having that conversation with anybody anymore, right? Patrick Mahomes has cheated his way through the referees. That's been Proven. [ __ ] him. Anyways, um but he's like he wants to be coached. He's like, "Coach me. Give me feedback because I got to get better here." I I feel like we're in and I you know, I've done some interviews. I've talked to frontline managers and the the the feedback the acceptance of feedback right now is is limited

and it and it and and it feels like an attack on a lot like you know a lot of these kids and I'm going to be you know old man John here but a Lot of these kids feel like oh I'm being personally attacked about this and so how do you coach people to coach people and walk that fine line of giving direct feedback back in a way that they'll accept, right? Because I because you could give the most direct feedback, but right now the subjective component is the rep thinks, "Oh, my boss doesn't like

me. So, because I don't think my boss likes me, all this feedback to me is is is [ __ ] And now I'm going to go rat it out to HR cuz I'm pissed now. And now the manager who gave the feedback is sitting in five meetings with HR explaining why they gave direct feedback to a rep's hitting 30% of quota. And like, why the [ __ ] am I here?" So, so the manager then kind of throws their hands up and says, "Uh, you know what? Yeah, Marcus, you're doing great. You know, you good

job, man. 30%, hey, that's better than 25% trophy for you. >> You win." >> And that doesn't do anybody any favors. I I I go by, you know, Jack Welsh. I worked for him for a couple of months with his radical cander and his, you know, when he was getting his online NBA program off the ground and everybody gave him [ __ ] for being neutron jack and always, you know, top grading and always firing the bottom 10%. But he said, "Look, I don't." Because I asked him about that. I'm like, "Dude, everybody Thinks you're

like a [ __ ] like you don't always have to fire." He goes, "Look, let me paint this picture for you. What do you think's worse? What do you think's meaner having a direct conversation with somebody? Well, look, he started with the first one. Say you you got to give some direct good, you know, strong feedback to somebody, but you're afraid to. So, you give them average feedback, right? You just don't want to deal with It. So, you know, year-over-year performance review after performance. You're giving average feedback. Maybe a little constructive criticism, right? Then all

of a sudden the economy tanks or we got to do layoffs and whatever. And everybody knows that layoffs start from the bottom up, right? Like they just, okay, the shitty performers are going to get all the way up. So now that person gets laid off and now so for 2, three, four, five years you've been Telling them that they're pretty good at their job. And now they have this this inferiority complex basically like, wait a minute, I thought I was good at my job. Now what? Versus coming to you and you even said it, Marcus,

you don't suck in general, but you suck at this. And so I'm gonna let you go figure out what you're great at because I think I I think you can be great at something else. This just isn't it. And you did it by moving people in the organization and Whatever it is, but >> that and that to me is being from Boston, being direct like [ __ ] yes, I want that, right? Cuz I want somebody to tell me I suck even if if I think of this. But now I feel like we're not in

a world of that that that is that that's tolerated. So what is your approach to people out there listening of how to provide direct feedback without the emotional component to it and shading it? >> So I think the the first big challenge I see a lot of times for a lot of leaders trying to get feedback is the trust isn't there. Like when the trust isn't there you're not going to receive you're going to be like I no of course that's that's not me. You're you're just being a jackass. I don't trust you etc. Right?

So if we if we tackle at at its very core, that's the first piece. And I think mistake a lot of managers make is the trust level is not there. They don't Feel psychologically safe. But then second, on top of that, it's usually very reactive. It's always reactivating. It's like it's a build of all these things and then finally there's a conversation and they're like, "You haven't said anything for the last six months and now you're saying I'm a bad rep." What do you >> That's like the performance review, right? Like the worst thing if

if a rep goes into a performance review and is Surprised about anything, you're an [ __ ] manager. >> 100% 100%. So, one of the things, you know, that I do that's really helped me over the years when I take over a team or if I'm hiring someone new, the very first thing we do is an individual development plan. So, it's really an it's a physical document that they they type in, they fill out, they write in what are their big personal goals. So, not their company goals, what's their Personal goals. So they say, I

want I want to buy a new house and here's why. I want to retire my spouse. You know, I want my kids to private school, whatever it's going to be. Also on there, it's like, you know, how best do you like to be led? So they really think what does that even mean? So they kind of fill it out, but also another question is how best do you like to receive feedback? And my goal here is it's not that they felt all the answers. They they type in What they believe is in there. And then

we sit down, we have an IDP meeting, and we talk about it. And user the feedback, like, hey, that's an interesting question. No one's ever asked me that, you know, like I guess, you know, you know, I I like to hear feedback. They they always kind of say that. I'm like, totally get that. Now, I'm a pretty direct guy and that can be offensive for some people. So, how best do you like to receive feedback? Do you like it direct? Do you need a little bit of buildup first? And what in in how can I

best give you feedback in a way you can be most open to receiving it? So, what's happening is in like literally week one, I'm already planting the seed that I'm going to coach and guide you and help you hit your personal goals you want to get to and why it's important to you. But I'm hopefully going to do in a way that you ideally like because some people say, "Yeah, actually, you know What? You tell it to me straight tell from my peers. I actually like that because my peers here, it actually makes me like,

you know, actually do it." So, it's it's interesting what you hear. So, that's the first step is like we start with that. So, we're already planting the seeds of trust from there. All right. And then as as a leader, what I've always done as well is I'm consistently giving feedback all throughout, but I'm not just giving Feedback to change a behavior. It's also feedback to encourage what I want to see continue to happen. So, for instance, you have a brand new hire and you say, "I want you to prepare a list of your tier one

accounts. I want you to do a little bit of research. So, come Monday for the 2-hour call block, I want you to be ready to go." And then on Monday when you inspect what you expect and they did a great job with that. Hey John, I just want to tell you this is the best I've Ever seen someone prepare for this list. How did you go about doing that? Well, you know, I uh I used Apollo, I used LinkedIn, I used Perplexity, I did this, this, and this. That's amazing. Great job with that. So, I'm

recognizing that behavior. Okay. So, I'm not and I'm not doing some sandwich technique. I'm I'm recognizing behavior when I already want to see it. All right. So, what happens is it's trust is like a is like a bank account. These are little deposits I'm Making up front. So when I do a withdrawal, I've earned the right to give them a withdrawal because it's already built up. All right, so that's the first. So it has to be consistent because consistency is what compounds over time and they trust you over time. You can talk a big game

all you want, but if you're inconsistent with it, doesn't really matter. So number one, you be really consistent with that. Now the second piece is when you actually Give them the feedback and I I got this feedback a you know a long time ago and it's been great which is uh a boss told me Mark is when you give feedback to anybody think of the triple T's what's your tact what's your tone what's your timing what's your tact what's your tone what's your timing and that's been really really impactful and then I also bridg in

the concept um from seven habits of highly effective people seek to understand first so let's just say For example you see an undesirable behavior out of your employee. Right? So, I'll give you an example. I had um a brand new hire and she was older than me at the time. Like, she was probably like 15 years older than me, brand new. I like she's going an amazing hire, you know, f first day to her first day and I'm I'm I'm a stickover for like timing and stuff like that. She's late. Okay. I don't call her

out in front of everybody because I made that mistake before. So, Later I pull her aside. I say, "Hey, hey, Lisa, you know, can we have a quick chat?" And she's kind of like, "Oh, god." I could tell and I said, "Hey, um, you I noticed today that I'm meeting Sak I don't know her style enough." Why? We had the IDP. It's my wife. I'm like, "I have to address this. I don't like things to build up." So, I'm on I'm like, "Can you help me understand like, you know, uh, what happened this morning?" I'm

trying to say, is she is She even aware that is it awareness thing? And she's like, "Yeah, I know. You know, I was I was late today." I'm like, "Totally get that. Can you help me understand what happened?" So, I'm just seeking to understand. My tone is stuck. I'm trying I'm trying to get She's like, "Well, you know, it's no excuse. Like, you know, I I really just didn't anticipate the morning traffic crossing the bridge over here. Like, it is it's backed up traffic. I just had no idea. I Actually I'm really embarrassed about this."

I'm like, "Okay, totally get that. So, moving forward, what are you probably going to do?" Because obviously the traffic's not going to change. And she's like, "I mean, move forward. I'm just going to leave 30 minutes early." I'm like, "Okay, cool. Awesome. Perfect. Just want to make sure." And she's like, "Good." That's And that was the last time we had a conversation. Later that week, she pulled me aside and she's Like, "I just want to tell you that was really interesting what you did." I'm like, "Well, what is that?" She's like, "I already forgot the

conversation." She's like, "You know, you know, on Monday I was late and and I've had bosses that happened and and they just re me day one. They just tell make me feel small and feel terrible. You actually pulled me aside and you just sought to understand and I completely got it and I'll never be late." I just Want to tell you I I really appreciate you doing that. So that was a good example because like you know we didn't have the trusting quite there yet but my approach was I was just gauging it consistently right

I was gauging the situation and adjusting accordingly but when you think about tough conversation tactone and timing >> sometimes the timing has to be a little bit later because of situation >> or how I need to adjust my tone or the Tact or how I do it because I want I need to make sure they internalize the message. It's not just giving feedback to get feedback. It's how can I give feedback that's going to change a behavior for the better. That's the key, right? Is is and I think you when you talked earlier, I think

it goes back to also expectation setting, right? Like if I'm not expecting bad feedback and I get it, I'm going to be defensive about it. You know, and and even if I'm late, you Know, cuz that's I have a pet peeve about being late. >> I I expect you to be on time. And when you're not, like I get pretty [ __ ] pissed because I just think all you have to do and by the way, I don't care that you're late. I care that you didn't text me 10 minutes earlier to tell me that

you were going to be late. That's like that. And and look, we all [ __ ] up. We all oversleep. We all do this, but don't [ __ ] a bullshitter here. And so, but But again, I've learned in my career where it's like I'm all pissed off. You're all like that's one of my [ __ ] things. And it's like, well, yeah, my kid was sick. My this was sick. It's the same thing actually when I do it now. And you and I both coach on outbound and prospecting. And it's amazing to me how

how pissed off people get, reps get when clients don't respond to them after certain things, right? It's like, what the [ __ ] Like, why haven't you, you Know, and and you can watch if you watch their emails, they get progressively more aggressive. Like, why, you know, ghosting and all that other stuff. >> And I tell people, I go, look, on on the on the cold call side of the house, first of all, that's not their problem. That's yours. Okay? But when somebody engages with you and and you have a good conversation and there's a

next step and I tell reps, I'm like, "Look, I beg you right now to lead with empathy." >> That's it. >> Because maybe before whatever, like, but now how [ __ ] up things are out there right now, you have no idea what people are going through. And I vividly remember being like really annoyed at a client one time for ghosting me in a contract that I was expecting to come in. And I'm like, "Dude, what the fuck?" And I ripped him apart on this email as like professional courtesy and everything else. And he literally

was Like, "John, sorry. My daughter's been in the hospital for the past week." And that I mean that p like when I say that punched me in the gut so hard I felt it. You know what I mean? I was like, "Oh." And this was before I even had a daughter. And I was just like, "Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. >> Yeah, John, you're not the most important person on the [ __ ] planet. Like I think you need to tone this down a little And so now every single time if

Somebody ghosts me, I literally say, "Hey, Marcus, man, I haven't heard from you in a little while. I I really hope everything's okay, you know, and and so I lead there and say, and you know, you had said timelines, priorities, those type of things. Let me know if this is in jeopardy or not because whatever you're going through and because I just want to know how to communicate with you more effectively moving forward." That approach, that empathetic, whatever has Got me a 10 times higher response rate than being like, "Professional courtesy, what the [ __

] Why didn't you get back to me?" type of [ __ ] >> 100%. >> Yeah. And I mean, I' I've said it before. I think life is about expectation setting. >> Oh, 100%. I think it's like, you know, like you you were in copy sales, so you probably also did door too, right? So, how many times would you walk in and the Gatekeeper is like just super rude and super unhappy, right? And it used to really bother me. I'd like oh my god, they're such a jerk. What a [ __ ] Blah blah blah,

whatever. Right? >> But like, and then like, you know, I start to reframe the questions. I'm like, well, >> think about it for a second. Okay, majority of people that call in are probably sales people who are not great. Uh, customer complaints. They're they Have one of the lowest roles. They're constantly busy and they never have to take breaks. Yeah, I probably wouldn't be happy in that job either. So, what if I walked in and maybe if I could be the best part of their day, be the most enjoyable conversation, maybe that'll make that easier

for me. And that shift for me personally was like, wow, I'm going to go in now and be like the best, you know, the best possible like, you know, light in that person's day. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's uh I posted something recently. I saw this quote that I thought was really interesting is, you know, judgment. We all we all judge, right? And and we all think that everybody's thinking about us, right? So, it's like and and I see this in my daughter, right? 14 years old. She's like, "Oh my god, they're talking about my sweetheart.

They're not talking about you. They're they're they're thinking that you're talking about them, right?" And what what you're doing there is actually you're you're actually insulting the person because you're putting this perception that they are a negative person and thinking negative about you. So you not only are you taking that from like internally which you can't control in any way, shape or form and you shouldn't anyways, but you're actually assuming bad intent from that person because you and I'm like and so you just Assume good intent, right? Like assume somebody's not trying to screw you

over. assume somebody is having a shitty day because they've been beat up by everybody else and it's not personal cuz 99% of the time it ain't right. And I think that's where a lot of more people have to have that mentality these days or else you just going to keep getting worse. >> Oh yeah. >> Well, it's like the um that's why I Think stoism is so powerful. One of the most powerful stoic principles is nothing has any meaning except for the meaning you give it. >> So if you're like that's just an thing that

happened that has has zero meaning, right? Like I mean if you think about it's kind of like you know like and this applies to even the most like drastic situations right like if you think if you you know if today if like you know if our kids passed away obviously we'd Be devastated right but you go back say a thousand years and your kid passed away they're like that was kind of what happens you're like it's it's a gamble because you're just trying to survive right like it just the meaning becomes very it's the same

thing but time has shifted the meaning. So I think you know for people listening out there it's like hey in the situation you're in how can you create zero meaning out situation or create a positive meaning for yourself And you can learn far more from that. Love that man. So what's got you fired up moving forward here? I mean we're in this weird weird spot right now at least from my standpoint. I I mean I I graduated 98. I've seen I you know I saw the crash in in 2000. I saw 2007. I taught that

you know I fell apart in 2023 for me co and all this other stuff. But this this feels different man. this this AI stuff feels different. And I think there's the the optimistic and the Pessimistic side of the house on this one, right? The Terminator, we're all going to be [ __ ] screwed or like, hey, we're going to live in this utopia world. And I just believe we're all in a in a legacy system, right? Whether it's a legacy sales system, a legacy environment, whatever, and we're transitioning, but nobody knows what the future is.

So, two things. One is what do you what are you excited about? And two is how are you helping the people That you coach and train prepare for a future that is unknown? >> What a great question. And I think at the end of the day, you and I, we can't predict the future. Otherwise, it'd be very different. Our bank accounts probably look very very different. >> I wouldn't be here right now. I'd be >> I wouldn't even be close to doing actually. I like the podcast. So, I'd probably still be doing the podcast. I'd

probably do nothing. >> I might just disappear. You might never hear from me ever again. >> Um, so what I think about like Okay, cool. So all we can really bet on is really, you know, our attitudes and our actions. That's really it, right? And we can make strategic bets. So for instance, we know AI is here to stay and we don't know the future. It for sure could be a Terminator situation. It could be a utopian situation. Again, we don't really know. All I know is, hey, How can we go about how we can

we go about having a growth mindset towards it, right? Because on on the opposite, you have a fixed mindset, which is like, you know, it's doom and gloom. Oh my gosh, whatever. You know, we're screwed. Or you get a growth mindset like, "Hey, how can I just embrace it as a mental model?" So, and it's interesting because I ask some friends like, "Oh, I'm going to try to build my own AI." I'm like, "You could. That's amazing, but can you Beat open AI? Are you going to be able to beat Google with what you have

to build?" Like, I'm just saying, "Do you have the resources, the the talent, the network to get to that point?" You can. It's up to you if you want to do that. But I'm like, instead, I'm going to I'm just going to leverage a tool to help me in any way I can. So you know as different tools come out I think the best way we can become is just be like scientists with it is really experiment And toy and really embrace it you know so for instance for you know a lot of my clients

like we're just leveraging the ones that's already available whether it's chatgbt or claude and it's like using hey how can we make our jobs easier better more efficient whether it's from account research to making your email more concise to doing anything that you want to do and as new tools come out you learn about use cases. Try it yourself. Don't just say That's not going to work. Say, hey, you know, that's a really interesting concept. How can I utilize this to make it easier and better for myself? And when you start thinking that way, it

doesn't really matter what the future holds because then you know, fast forward two years, if the roles completely shift, you're thinking, hey, how can I adapt myself to get to this point? Well, most people are going to be stuck in a fixed mindset. And I believe Most people are stuck in a fixed mindset. So, if you want to get ahead, it's not about trying to create the next AI, unless you happen to be a genius, which would be amazing. Um, if you're like me, just a very average dude who works really hard, just be curious.

>> Just be curious. >> Have fun, learn, try stuff out, invest on your own. If your company doesn't pay, go out and pay for claw, pay for the subscription, just test it and see What you like. And you might build something cool with it. Worst case, you learn a new way of thinking that's going to help you down the road. >> Yeah, absolutely, man. I think that curiosity and agility and adaptability, those are the those are the skills of the future. I mean, I when I coach my corporate clients, it's I encourage them. I'm like,

turn your sales organ into a sales lab. >> And and you know, every Friday, ideally Once a week, pizza, beer, Friday afternoon, get the whole GTM crew together here and and break up into teams like three to five people, right? And and put, you know, the young reps in with the senior reps in, so business acumen versus techsavviness. Throw a couple of sees in there for prompting and stuff like that. throw the marketers in there and then and then kind of like engineers, right? You know how engineers have hackathons? Oh yeah. >> They pick something,

they nerd out on it for a little while. Well, I think we should do the same in sales now is like pick any aspect of the sales process. I don't give a [ __ ] what it is. And and give a framework so it's not just all over the place. Be like, "Hey, here's the problem we're trying to solve or here's the thing we're trying to make more efficient, whatever it is." Whoever in the next hour can figure out a better solution than what we're doing now wins. And so then they nerd out on it

for a little while. They collaborate, they learn, right? Whatever. And then everybody presents what their solution is. And at the end we all vote to say, "Okay, well, which one do we like best? Great. Like that one? Cool. Let's implement that next week and see if it works." And then iterate and iterate and iterate and keep doing that because now you're using the bottom up approach to decision m because I don't think anybody I don't I don't know about you, but I don't know any executive right now top down about making decisions specifically related to

AI. I I think that's a fool's errand because by the time you identify the problem, you evaluate vendors, you make the decision, you're 6 to nine months out of any implementation. And I don't know about you, I I have no [ __ ] idea what's going to be six months from now. It's exactly right. >> Getting them to build into it is the way To you got to you got to shift that mentality. >> And I think there's two key points, right? I think number one is as a leader, you have to create the environment

for people to do it. So that's a perfect examp the sales AION, if you will. I think also number two, it's also leading from the front and showing them, hey, what you're testing out as well. If for example, it's like, let's just say you're not using an AI Transcription tool or for your call recorders, right? You know, for your calls, you get one, then they say, "Hey, listen, take a look at this." Next meeting, look at what I did. I actually took the call. I took a transcription. I created a really simple prompt. It says,

"Hey, we use medic. We use medic. Rate my call, you know, against medic. and how can I you know how can we uh do a better job next time and what are the gaps and what should I do next to drive Up my win rate also give me a probability and show them so that they see you also doing it right and you'll learn some things it'll make you better it'll get you thinking right and then they'll see it to them and you'll have some going to take off of that right and they're going to

do it too but you have to create that culture then lead from the front as being a forward thinker versus sitting back and kind of hoping the team's going to you know bring some Idea to your table to the And going back to controlling it a little bit too because everybody's [ __ ] around with it in some way, shape or form. >> You know what I mean? Some reps are going deep into it, others are kind of like whatever. So it's it's and it's all over and nobody knows how like very few reps know

even especially the senior ones even what to ask which is which blows me away with AI because all I say Is just [ __ ] just say I don't know what to ask. What should I be asking? But regardless, giving them a structure to it, whether it's and I tell reps, like senior reps, I'm like because like there's so many things I go, look, put 30 minutes a day on your calendar and let me like either at lunch or in the morning as your morning routine. 30 minutes and that's your [ __ ] around with

AI 30 minutes, right? But but limit it to 30 minutes. So you don't cuz I I Don't know about you, but man, I've like all of a sudden I wake up at 3:00 in the morning and I don't mean like physically wake up. I mean like I kind of get out of the zone. I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] I've been drowning in AI for the past five hours here and I haven't really done anything." So you do need to control it a little bit, but man, it is such a superpower if you're if going

back to what you said is if you're curious, if you give a [ __ ] if you want to learn, But if you're looking at it for the answer, I think you're you're just screaming to be replaced. >> Well, I think what's really interesting is like and I think those who start to internalize, how can I use it in my my daytoday life? Yeah. >> Right. >> Like, you know, for for really like for anything, you know, like you know, for instance, like like I'll give you example because I use it all the time For

like literally anything and everything. It's like I want I'm going to switch like uh solo 401k providers. I'm thinking in my head I'm like oh it's gonna be a whole thing all these steps. I'm like I'm like you know hey Claude like what's the simplest and easiest way to transfer over my 41k and what should I be on the lookout for? Very simple plan. I'm like that makes sense. Okay. Am I am I miss are we missing anything here? But here's the thing. It's not Just taking that data. I'm thinking like logic critical thinking. I'm

like does this actually make sense? Exactly. Right. Yeah. M like I'm going to I'm going to think about I'm like okay actually this doesn't seem to make sense in this step like are you sure well actually now what you asked you should actually do this way I'm like okay cool but we're using as a tool and we're being curious with it right and it's doing it now versus waiting two three Years later so we can hopefully be the forerunner of whatever AI is at the table at that point and I think that's the best way

to learn this stuff is to is to be curious but also like create right create your own GPT create like I I just right before we were on this phone My daughter's have some she has some stomach issues and she it's been weird. She's starting like and I and we can't figure it out. And you know doctor, I got to wait a week to schedule A [ __ ] appointment and all this other [ __ ] And so I created a GPT that I want you to be the best nutritionist, the best doctor for gut

issues. Um I you know I want to create it for my daughter. She's going to input her food and she I need you to tell her like she's d kicked out this killer ass prompt. Took that put it over there. tweaked it up a little bit and now I got an app for my daughter that all I want her to do is whenever she eats something Just say this is what I ate and then tell her you know an hour later how do I feel and then we're going to distill this down into a diet

that she can use and no doctor would ever be able to do that in a timely fashion. >> Oh 100%. >> And so like going through the process of being curious then saying okay how do I do this teaches you more about this stuff than 95% of the people on the planet. And I think you have to just Like make it part of your life. Like and you're going to appreciate this because you know obviously got kids and so do I. But like you know I actually one kid and you know he's he's eight now

but for last couple years once AI started getting kind of his thing. I've been shown how to use AI. So like we'll go and we'll write whole stories like like act is a world class storyteller. I'm like you know make the main character Roman Chan. He's half Persian half Chinese. He loves magic tricks. He loves chess and like I'll give all these details about his his life and like write me a story in the Super Mario Brothers 3 story line and have all the characters inside there have a moral story be this. So we'll do

these things together, right? And then he'll create this like hilarious story which is like funnier than something I would write but he sees he's like oh and then he'll sit there and he'll reprompt it, right? Because you're like, "Oh, add in this character because they didn't do this character. Add this in. Change this. Make this part funnier, right?" So, I think we if we start getting that mindset now, you know, that's going to be far better. But it's also how do you integrate part of love? It's not going away. >> No. >> No. Embrace it

and make it part of who you are. >> Yeah. And I and I think what's more important now I quite frankly I think IQ is over. I I really do. It's already smarter than us. So like so doubling down on EQ is is you know all those liberal arts degrees that everybody everybody used to make fun of like no now those are coming back in vogue because it's like oh you know sorry coders you're [ __ ] you know sorry lawyers you're [ __ ] hey liberal arts you get to understand sociology and how People

work and psychology and all that stuff like you're going to be the winners moving forward because human interaction human connection those type of things are what's going to matter more than anything I think moving forward >> I think one other thing to add to that as well right is like so if you have the EQ if you also have what I call aq Q the adaptability quotient, right? >> So, it's like you're being a you're able To adapt as the tool changes over time and what's available because, you know, we'll get to a point where

it's around us at all times. It's just a it's like it's like Jarvis and Iron Man. It's how it is like >> whether it's a chip in our head or the phone, however, >> it will be on us some way and shape some way, shape, or form. >> Yeah, absolutely. Awesome, man. Well, we could go down the rabbit hole of Terminator, but uh let's let's wrap this one up. Marcus, what are you working on? What do you want people to know? I know you're going in on corporate these days but uh talk to the pe

talk to the audience where you want them to show >> 100%. Right. So it's been absolute pleasure. Right. So now we work directly with you know corporations you know usually they're between 25 50 mill at least 25 plus AES and we first you do a diagnostic where we do a deep dive into Their situation analyze all their sales interview a bunch of reps leaders uh we analyze all their data take a look at all the conversations as well plus call recordings and we uncover like the biggest leaks in their organization. So we actually work on

fixing that first right. Right. So instead of just coming in this training, we're figuring out, hey, what's the biggest gaps and how can I actually help you with the gaps? Will you do it internally or externally? And What's really interesting is you know half the time or half the challenges are actually internal based you got to fix first right before we actually implement some of the backend stuff too. But it's a lot of fun. So hit me up on LinkedIn or head to venleyconulting.com to learn uh learn more about it. >> Love it. Hey, just

curious like how many people are tolerant to to go through that, right? Because the there's the quick fix training and then there's the Way to do it right which is assess, plan, execute. But so many people in this space are quick fix. I just need some training to train my team. So how how often do you find people being like uh that sounds great Marcus but uh no [ __ ] way we're going to do that. I just need something. >> It depends on how sharp the leader is to be quite frank. >> Of course.

Yeah. >> Right. So like the really sharp leaders, They understand like a good doctor diagnosis first and they're like 100% this is what we have to do first. Um, and there's and there's there's some for sure they're like we want the quick fix. We had some budget to burn, you know, and that's kind of like they just want to get training, etc., right? Which is like we we tried to like not do those, right? Because it's like we know long-term wise they won't get the results they actually want, you know, Because they're looking for an

SKO or a speaking thing, you know? It's like, okay, now if we can try to piggyback where we do that first to build if that's like if that's the entry offer to build trust with them, then we can do like maybe a bigger term engagement that that has happened too, which has been cool, right? If we can do a diagnostic first, solve the right core issues from the get-go, that can to save them like literally dividends on the back end Because obviously we're solving systemic issues versus putting a band-aid on stuff that you know it's

not going to be held account not going to be put in place long-term wise because they have bad managers. >> Yep. That's that's the problem, my friend, is these days that uh I don't know if you know too many people are willing to put in the work, the real work of what it takes to kind of like fix that foundation before they build on Top of it. And it's a house of cards, right? So >> that's exactly we see it far too often, unfortunately. >> I know. I know. There's a couple of clients that I'm

working with right now that I'm just like, you know, I'm like forcing myself on them to do the reinforcement. I'm for I'm like I'm dumbing it down to the point where I can I'm like, look, all you have to do is take this sequence that I created based On this and put it into outreach or put it into sales loft, have reps identify 20 accounts that they want to go after and click a [ __ ] button. Like literally, that's all I need you to do. And the amount of push back I get from it

is off the charts. It's like, well, you know, it's a really really busy quarter. And I'm like, I'm this is doing your [ __ ] job. Like, how do I >> Oh, yeah. >> And and it's the whole proverbial Short-term thinker, right? Because it's like they're not thinking of 2026 in their pipeline now, right? Like they're just thinking like right now, which like yeah, it's fine, but you know, you have it's a it's a it's 180 360 day sales cycle for you guys. So, you have no you don't have no pipeline 2026. Like what are

you going to do? Like you're you're robbing your future self by not putting these things in place now. >> All right. Well, let's keep fighting the Good fight, my friend, for the team. We care. Right. >> That's it. Exactly. >> Awesome. Laros, well, thanks for coming on, man. It was been great chat with you. Let's make sure that uh we connect here sometime soon outside of uh I don't know if I'm doing the big conferences this year. I think I'm a little tapped out on the big boys. Uh but hopefully we can find some cool

stuff. Where actually, where are you based out of Again? >> Portland, Oregon. I'm still there. Yep, you're still there. Cool. Well, yeah. Let me know if you're ever traveling on the East Coast. I do. I actually New York. I do a couple of things back and forth now a few times. So, if you're ever in New York, but let's uh let's make sure that we stay connected again. Sound good, brother. >> Always a pleasure. >> Always, my friend. >> Everybody, hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Like I say all at the

end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today cuz no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile, you know you had a good day. And the world needs a lot more of that right now. So, thank you very much and I will see you on the other side.