Conductor Mark Wigglesworth: Would you want to be conducted by you?

I love what it means to stand in the middle of that sense of connection between them between them and the music between the music and the past and and of course then the audience connecting to the orchestra connecting to each other being in the middle of that sort of emotional social thing is extraordinary did you resp prior to that I mean when you when you were younger did you look at that and think that is what I want to do or was it something that that you ended up doing and then experiencing that that you

just describe I certainly wouldn't have Tic wouldn't have articulated that reason as the reason for doing it I think you don't at that age you just kind of go with some Instinct and it it wasn't that it was just the thrill of the sound and the fact that I couldn't get the same Thrill of the sound through my piano or violin playing so it was professional musicians who I who I knew as sort of family friends could see that my musicianship was not going to be expressed through my own sound world did they tell you

that they did actually Ward swingle who was the founder of the swingle singers my mother's oldest friend and Big Friend of the family and and I would play my piano pieces to him before my grade exams as a sort of extra musical uh inuence test audence well just as a sort of you know perspective and well he was a wonderful musician friend of bues friend of bario Bernstein you know these extraordinary musicians that he was part of so it was a real and I knew that even age 10 that he was special and he said

after listening to my piano playing I think you should you'd be really you should pursue conducting at the time I I did sorry I find that very no well I took it as I took it as a compliment which is such a wonderful naivity right but um but he did see and and he was right to see that I mean I I remember playing the piano sort of in public I not not professionally but in public and being absolutely terrified by the significance of what I was doing in terms of playing that note at that

time and uh sharing that responsibility which is a polite way of saying over to you guys uh just you of course I get nervous when with with but I can tell it it's a thrill nervous whereas with piano it was it was debilitating the nerves and so because it was only you as in you only you were responsible because you you are only responsible for and and doubt we'll talk about doubt I think later on but um the doubt that would increase the closer I got to the note whereas actually uh in conducting you you

I don't have those doubts at the moment at which I'm performing I have plenty of doubts in the preparation and and and and they're trying to understand the piece but at the moment of delivery if you like I don't have a doubt so that trust that is required when you're conducting you know when you when you pass the battle that's much more palatable than the personal responsibility of creating the note absolutely I don't know how oh my goodness me absolutely wow what they do is extraordinary musicians you know we you sort of take it for

granted in a specific way you think they're amaz of course they're amazing you think they're amazing but actually realizing what they do with their putting that finger at that moment in that place or that breath a thousand times a night or you know more is quite extraordinary it is yes and for them to do it in exactly the way they want or even harder not in the way they want want but the way they they buy into for that week which is a whole other challenge for them as an orchestral musician how do how do

they have ownership of a musical idea that actually the isn't quite theirs is really inspiring that they do that um I know that you you said earlier I wonder actually whether I can just get you to turn keep your chair in the position it is but if you just turn your body so you're facing this way just a bit more that's it perfect don't but don't um uh you mentioned earlier on that that you know when you were young you wouldn't necessarily have articulated it but when you started conducting did you did you experience it

then this observation that you make now about trust and and the amazingness of musicians on the platform did you were you aware of that at the beginning of your career conducting career well I don't think I had enough trust when I was starting out uh which was not to say I didn't trust musicians but I didn't trust myself to be in that position and ultimately you can only trust other people if you also trust yourself I know you still stood up stood on the podium I mean there must have been it's I mean your question

I'm not I'm not doubting you no no the inter thing is we don't I don't really remember is the honest answer um emotional memory is I I can remember specific things but I can't quite remember how I felt about it I conducted at school a lot right and my school was amazing in giving me that opportunity so to putting their students to be allowing their students be conducted by another student is a staggering um thing to do as a school it's very exposing it's put you it's exposing but but it's also trusting and so I

they instilled in me um that confidence actually and interestingly I don't think it's co Mark Elder went to the same school John an G went to the same school so and other people who've gone on to sort of individual leadership roles in life um clearly responded to this to be given this trust at at a young age but it I was so young I mean I I conducted conducting Mozart masses in in in the church school uh the choir quite often part of my a level was actually conducting literally at at an exam with but

as a concert and um conducted Oklahoma which is still a highlight of my life um but but the point is I when you're given this opportunity this young you don't judge actually you don't you don't overthink it the overthinking came later in terms of being suddenly in the professional environment but in terms of the actual working with musicians that and that relationship of leadership within an environment at which nevertheless they are doing it uh I was offered that so young that I didn't judge it there was no need to question it yeah because it sounds

as though actually that the role of conductor was seen as uh this sound a little old but a legitimate leadership role within the learning environment and so it was positively encouraged every what was encouraged at the school was to be individual and uh with individuality inevitably comes leadership I think it's that way around how are you an individual can you can you describe how you are an individual because I like to think that I'm an individual but some people to say no you're annoying John so no we're all individual it's whether we want whether we

trust ourselves enough to express that individuality which takes a certain amount of Courage but nobody's more individual than anybody else it's just whether you want to sort of use that individuality to create something which essentially means putting your head above the parit and and being prepared to be shot at have you been shot at oh God yes some people didn't even miss right I mean you're looking very good you know I mean you clearly no I mean I I was um I was very lucky and I used that word in inverted commas I went a

competition straight out of college which gave me a lot of um uh uh exposure which uh I wasn't really ready for on a musical well on a conducting level and uh I was conducting Mar 10 at the proms you know within a year and wow that was of course that was lucky and and everybody would have thought how lucky I am and and I thought how lucky I am no I'm thinking it's terrifying well I just think the problem is um the orchestras uh that were part of that didn't understandably they wanted when they're playing

Mar 10 at the proms they they want the best there is and quite rightly so and that couldn't have been me at that age um how one supports young conductors is is a whole topic and th in those days if I'm allowed to say that 30 years on uh there weren't very many young conductors actually I was one of the only ones under 30 that was sort of working at a at a high level now it's the whole thing is is is if you haven't made it by your by the time you're 30 you're going

to get a bit stressed but the traditional idea of of conducting which is you get better and better and and you don't really start to know how to do it until you're 50 which is I sort of feel the case for me to be honest so there's some years to go yet I'm I know how this works I'm just beginning to feel like I know what I'm doing right and uh and and why I'm doing it and and all those and those questions that as why I can't really answer how your question about how I

felt at the time because I didn't even realize they were questions and that's the problem is that if you're doing this when you're too young in an environment that expects um rightly so the very best I mean I shared a concert with uh L slavski himself conducting half of it and I was conducting the other half and you know looking back on that I mean it's like goodness what what was I but I have no I have no memory of of whether I S of bottled up my fear or bottled up my insecurities in order

to survive it I don't know but I don't really remember how I felt about it just looking back I can see that it wasn't necessarily the best way for me to learn my job uh what what turned out to be the best way to learn your job time and um slowly realizing what the job of conducting is and uh when you're young you're so terrified that you think your reason for standing there is because you have a very strong opinion about how the music should go and that conviction in your interpretation is what gives you

validity to to do it so I I'm always very prepared but I was particularly prepared in those days with what I wanted to achieve and the problem with that is where does that leave the musicians and if you go up there feeling that you have to unify the orchestra with your vision in order to do your job which isn't untrue but it's only part of it if that's your main goal then you are going to um repress what they can bring to the to the experience and the more I did a particular piece the more

I realized uh that the margin for what that Unity needs to be was actually wider than I thought and that as I've got older I felt more comfortable far more comfortable knowing that what particular player does how they turn a phrase is fine and and can fit in with still a unified Vision so it's a a broader church if you like as to what makes an interpretation and actually as you got as I've got older realizing that what we can do together as musicians is going to be far more profound than simply them following my

choices that sounds extremely generous and um you articulate a mindset that is completely alien from mine uh and and and there is much to learn from that actually being I'm being a little wistful but then that's that's partly because the view outside really good there's a wonderful line in conclave which is the Robert Harris book that is made to a film about um leadership they're trying to choose the new pope and what do they want from the new pope and there's a line in which uh they say certainty is the enemy of unity because with

certainty there is no doubt and with no doubt there's no tolerance and without tolerance you can't have Unity so I found that so beautifully articulated because one is one is supposed as the conductor to have a certainty as to how something should go that's what we see as audience members that's what we assume rather but that is not the hierarchy of music it's the hierarchy of how music is portrayed the conductor is in standing up we come in late we leave early not sure what that's about you do don't you I've always thought that that's

a bit weird I mean at least you dress smartly but we are the visual perception of leadership but that's not what music is music is an Ever Changing relationship between the the people playing it I'm talking about music that's written for more than one person so of course the conductor starts it you have one job start but then the privilege of leadership is in choosing who's in charge at any given moment and that is sort of where your interpretation comes from is I think this is the most important thing I think the over solo is

the most important thing at this moment I think the cello Baseline is the most important thing at this moment once that choice has been made you are then saying to the orchestra and the point of the rehearsals is saying to the orchestra this is who we're listening to here this is who we're listening to here and that those people are therefore in charge at that moment so the idea of leadership as a sort of hierarchical pyramid uh doesn't work because it's it's it's more like a circle in which everybody has an opportunity at any given

moment to to step into the center and take control you're talking about delegation in in in a non-m musical envir environment but other people other leaders would describe that as delegation no uh they would I don't think it's a good word because it it has connotations of Direction up and down I would say it it's enabling um it's enabling everybody to feel an equal part in the process which doesn't mean they're always the loudest but just because they're playing pianis whil OBO solo is is is playing metah for it doesn't make them less important so

it's trying to make everybody feel important and everybody feel understanding their role at that moment which is listening or leading and what Orchestra musicians do which I think is so extraordinary uh and again doesn't really get credited is they listen and Lead at the same time and that is in a social sense you know we're losing that people there's lots of people who are shouting you know lots of people say this this this and there's lots of people who are listening and they're perceived as one or the other yes and an orchestral musician will uh

will lead with their sound whilst listening they can't do it without listening are there a group of individual lead is an orchestra a group of individual leaders then would you would you goes granular as that in your definition yes I mean it's everybody's a leader but a leader that that respects uh because they have to lead their musicianship but it's a leader that leaded that respects that well we do know in a piece of music that is not a free-for-all and the audiences absolutely need vision and that can be very specific but they should they

the job of the conductor is is is to make sure nobody's feeling subservient but it's their choice to play as soft as possible it's their choice to to play freely in order to give uh a soloist that freedom this might be a slightly uh off the Beaten Track question but what is your view on your Year resolutions do you do you make them um every day oh okay do you follow through on them every day well day no which is why I need to make them every day okay you okay you make them you make

them every day so I mean would you say that you are highly selfmotivated and hold yourself to account uh I'm definitely my you know my biggest critic for sure is that what you mean if somebody tells you to do something will you Rebel simply because they've told you or if they or will you look for or will you look for agency if somebody asks you to do something they present you with a choice will you will you respond more readily to that or I'm trying to understand how you respond to intrinsic motivation yeah or you

I wouldn't do I mean I I definitely struggle to do things I disagree with right okay great definitely come on in yeah yeah okay but um yeah uh but if somebody else asks you to do something and but so if somebody else ask you to do something you generally won't you won't automatically do it you would have to agree with it presumably you would need to find evidence to back up what they're suggesting and I mean I'd like to think that you know you have an instinctive reaction to something uh yes or no and I'd

like to think that that I don't do that or or that you know if if my instinctive reaction is no I'd like to think that i' just give it some time and think well actually why not um and I think I got better at that uh I should provide you with an explanation otherwise it was be like a really weird moment in an interview but there is a there's a book called the four Tendencies by uh Gretchen rubins um who talks about how there there are essentially four different types of people according to her resarch

um uh and they're based on how they respond to external expectations and internal expectations they're obligers upholders questioners and Rebels obligers will always say yes organizations need obligers because otherwise organizations wouldn't function um upholders love process uh and so because they love process they love process in the workplace and they also love Pro they follow process themselves so they're highly motivated uh and they will just get on with stuff but they can be a little bit bureaucratic um wh we got to blinders upholders questioners they just need to question everything they will they will pursue

all reviews until they've satisfied themselves that everything is okay and then they'll proceed um and then Rebels just won't do anything for anybody unless they've been presented with some kind of choice I don't think have many of those I think you are you tell me you tell me I think you've already answered that question I I think maybe you're a rebel because but that suggest the the re it's not a bad thing by the way no no but defining it like that suggests that's the goal to Rebel that that's never the goal no no the

the the term uh art in terms of the Rebel the term articulates a need which explains how they are most likely to be motivated so if they feel as though there is choice there is an alternative way and that they have been afforded that choice then they'll do anything and I was just wondering which one you were that was all but it sounds like you don't even buy into the into the framework which is slightly problema I think it's more than four different types of people I think we're all individual yeah oh how tiresome uh

not to worry um but I wouldn't do well I don't do well in groups okay so in preference for introversion then yeah avoids parties loves reading a book yeah all of that yes press events well that you then I don't I know I mean they're quite fun because one has a job to do and one's promoting and they're always over aren't they I think I I like I like all that stuff you know one's promoting one's work what's not to like about that and one needs one needs people to know about it you know what's

the you know so it's not Ivory Tower um introversion for absolutely not I'm doing this for a star yeah okay you know so it's it's like I enjoy sharing sharing what we do and and wanting as many people to to be to be aware of it as possible but um but I'm not good in in crowds and uh you know I I've written a book and I like writing and that's a solitary thing conducting is in some ways very solitary you know when you're not conducting you're absolutely on your own preparing that's a very intimate

introverted um experience and that is a is more than half your life is preparing for me anyway uh I conduct less than I study in terms of in terms of hours and days and so so you know that aspect of and I love it uh I couldn't be one of those conductors that works every week of the year obviously I couldn't be that as a musician in terms of sort of knowing enough of the music but on a human level I I need the I need the breaks of from those large groups of people would

you like to be conducted by you brilliant question brilliant question yeah I mean why am I not surprised I hope so yeah otherwise it would be you really yourself in the foot well we do we are the person we we try to be the person we'd like to be you know you know be I you know I say to younger conductors make sure you conduct the musicians in the orchestra that you want to conduct because in a large group of people there's always people who who are going to be resistant to you and it's quite

um easy in human nature to sort of latch on to that negativity even if it's tiny because negativity is more powerful than positivity we are hardwired for survival so we're going to focus on negativity exactly so but focusing on you know conducting the people who want what you're offering is is important what are the mistakes that others make that you observe I'm not looking for names I'm looking for the M you know what are the what are the slip UPS or the errors that new conductors or indeed maybe existing conductors you established conductors are are

making that You observe I think it all comes back to one thing which is what MO is what is the motivation for doing the job and if the motivation for doing the job is um egocentric or self-promoting or power it's going to result in all sorts of small mistakes um and there's still you know as a Leadership Model uh there are still plenty of people who see it as as as hierarchical even now even new conductors I think very few I mean I think fewer for sure and and it's a reflection of society and what

we need to make sure of as Society seems to be rather gravitating towards individual you know the egocentric leader and the extremist leader and the leader who's in it for power and doesn't actually care about what the it is uh I'd like to think that the cond conducting doesn't kind of Follow that but if you think of the conductors in the 1930s there that sort of tyrannical dictatorship it fits with the time there is um there is a tension I think that would be the right word though that we obviously both understand what we're talking

about and I find it fascinating but as an audience member when I'm sat in the auditorium it is this detail and this background that won't be we won't be aware of it and so in order for th for those leadership principles to uh be distributed if you like to a to a wider audience it needs to be talked about more and I mean I I appreciate you've written the books so obviously you've done your you've done your bit as it were but how do we how does an industry that has set itself up on that

principle of hierarchy in music because that's essentially how it's been sold um how does it sort of reverse that how does it start sharing more about how and what you do people like you do it's a you yeah it's difficult because audiences like in can feel a relationship to an individual yeah in the way that uh they might not understand an orchestra and if you if you've got two photograph two you got space for two two square in photograph and you've got an orer of 100 yes what does that mean or if you've got a

conductor or a soloist who can sort of who you can see in their eyes you can see why marketing departments promote and you could see it last night in the auditorium you know when dougy was um reading out tributes from previous conductors I mean the audience reaction to those to Marin and Caroll was was warm and enthusiastic people are connected with the with the conductor well what which is great I mean what you what you want to be is Chief conductor of the community you don't want to be Chief conductor of the orchestra so and

what I've only just started here but what I'm enjoying is is trying to is trying to connect with the community more I mean it's easy to connect with the orchestra that's the job and you and you're given six hours a day to do it interacting with the audience takes much more time and Marin and kol obviously they were here for a long time and it's wonderful that the audience feel connected to that individual as a weighin um but what I think the orchestra here does well is they do promote visually the players um well and

I think the relationship between there will be a lot of audience members who are very familiar with a lot of the orchestra maybe not by name but they notice things oh why is why is she why is she's off today the person I was sat next to in the auditorium last night was saying well the reason we're here is because is the principal Obo's last concert I mean that would just I did say to her I don't know that I would be having this first of all I wouldn't be having this conversation with you we

were sat next to each other in the bar because it just wouldn't happen um and also I don't think anybody this that's a sweeping statement I'm about to way but I just don't think people would be motivated to go for that reason in London no I mean I could be that that maybe it's one of lond it's one of London's problems is is that is that the lack of identity so an orchestra the orchestra is called the bourma symphony orchestra the Berlin philonic yeah the New York philonic every Orchestra almost every Orchestra is defined by

the community it serves with International touring and recording and and the whole digital orchestras have lost that it's not their fault but they've lost that sense of the implication of the name is where they're from yes rather than what who they're for and we're here for Bournemouth and obviously the whole Southwest but but that's the the point the um the Royal Liverpool fonic is there for Liverpool and so and and londoners have that that's a problem for London orchestras is well why is there more than one well not least because there are so many to

choose exactly so I mean obviously haven't connected to all of them because they're all great but well they are all great but that it's it's not something communi and I don't experience that no you can go to a concert in London and and they're all Wonder all those orchestras are fantastic FC and uh they're all capable of playing the best concert you've ever heard but there's not that identity which is there's not that sense of connection and ownership um from the public and with government support getting less and less and less uh all over the

world then communities need to feel well this is ours we've we've got to support it we we want it and uh I love the fact that here there is a there is a strong connection between individual members of the audience and individual members of the orchestra who all come together and um and I hope the people there who who were excited to be at the ob's last concert will be equally excited to be at the new oist first concert yeah what us that actually is a fair thought that's yeah um was he I mean I

don't know who that is was he president no we well it'll take a it'll take a while hasn't take a while to replace these people for sure but but but that sense of ownership that sense of Engagement who are they going to get oh this this person is is okay well and actually it's like finding a new pope isn't it now I come to think of it is not unlik what's interesting is is is Ed K as principal OBO here having been here for so long the seat itself is such a Audible and visible seat

that the audience are going to see the people who we choose to to give opportunities to try out and um you know public vote enough of your ideas now exact um I thought what was particularly touching actually was seeing um at the end uh principal OBO move from his seat to to the podium which is something you know for regular orchestral uh audience members is that's unusual sight so you know and and yet the principal overo plays a a key role a critical role right from before a note is played I absolutely loved how the

audience applauded his giving the a that was so spontaneous and so but so sincere you know the audience know that's what he's but it also sets up the audience well before the music has begun because I think that not that I'm being cynical about this but I think that it it breaks the it brings us closer to what is going on on the platform it makes them human beings up until somebody says something they are human beings with instruments who are doing a thing that we pay to hear them do then when somebody stands on

stage with microphone and says that bloke over there has been doing this for 37 years and this is his last concert then we all in yeah unless you're a coldhearted bastard most of us in the audience go oh which does set you up right for everything that follows but everybody has a story oh yeah but we just don't go to him no no but I think I think going back to what the conductor the conductor needs to know that everybody has a story and that everybody is not just an instrument and that you're conducting people

first I don't really think that obviously you're conducting people first you know are you conducting the music or are you conducting musicians you know it's obviously a bit of a stupid question because it's both but it it has to be both you can't just conduct the musicians you it's not just a psychological come on guys uh and nor is it just uh sort of head in the clouds music it's it's that combination of people and and uh and sound uh I have three other questions to ask you and then there's one other thing to reveal

um this is this sort of supplementary stuff do you have a recommended read um what would you recommend I read that you Alan wats the wisdom of insecurity in relation to what we've been talking about is it's okay not to be certain and in fact it's better to be not certain the wisdom of insecurity is a more honest way of life and that in relation to conducting but not only conducting it's to like we're all being asked to sort of we're all expected to have answers Solutions I well I think we should do this no

we shouldn't do this we should do this it's like it's okay not to know which is not to have toate responsibility for taking for making a choice but respecting that doubt is I think really valuable do you have a recommended watch something that would make me laugh or cry or both why sigh surely surely unreasonably easy to read recommended watch what was the last thing that made you laugh or cry or indeed both I watched where the cwad sing and I can't remember who wrote it I read the book and then watched the film very

moving about um uh it's a great story but it's more about place and feeling connected to place and in the event that you would invite me around for dinner what would be your go-to signature dish you would not be allowed to buy in catering I would need to see you I think I'd buy in catering but not let you know right I went to boarding school and and the best thing about boarding school is is it is is you become very you have very Catholic tastes of food and you become you're very unfussy gland well

it doesn't I don't appreciate um I think one of the great gifts in life is is is to be able to eat everything yes it's it saves a lot of time okay so you're a me teacher I mean that that would be that I'd give you some lamb I mean I'm I'm I I'm surrounded by sheep where I live so I feel slightly awkward but I would give you some I wouldn't require you to slaughter the L you can you can go to the Super be right um the last thing just to say to you

is that um I I suspect that you I mean I can't see any reason why you would know this but um we did meet 30 years ago you were the third conductor who I put on stage um and it was my second job uh and you were conducting the Britain peers Orchestra at snake molting in a program which I think p7 yeah my God you remembered enough yes yes 1995 is that right oh yeah that's right yeah June 1995 I remember every concept done really yeah you don't remember how it feels but wow yeah so

what was your role then I was orchestral manager and Stage manager Julia Lawrence had fixed the entire Orchestra and when she handed it over handed over the the stuff to me um I think it like a week or two weeks before the concert she just handed over this entire a file full of extra players and said if anybody drops out just just ring these people it's the most terrifying role cuz it just seemed like an enormous responsibility I know I do when I you know I think of my my responsibilities and then I think of

the or well no it's not the orchestral manager who who who you know who who might on the morning of a concert get a phone call from from from a player saying I'm Ill I mean it happens a lot and and you know we're not in London so yeah you know that stress only a handful of trays to S I would be Terri I would be absolutely terrible I hated it I mean I loved being a snake but I really was not the right person in the right job and the right how was the concert

you remember I do remember the concert being very good uh was that at the beginning of your I mean I've been doing the maths you see in this conversation was that at the beginning of your career was that short after I was no was 5 years in actually right which felt like a long time M at that time and the same year that you conducted M 10 um cuz you said5 or 94 yeah 94 wow yeah so I was look what you're doing now you're doing very well aren't you I think I'm doing it all

but I do think I'm doing it better