Joe Rogan Experience #1203 - Eric Weinstein

And we're live are you gonna update the people out there no are you shot your phone off no your professional don't worry sir good to see you and well what's going on everything it's all pretty weird out there it is very weird out there we were just talking about how weird it is out there before the podcast about how it just seems like it's very difficult to keep together during these times and to keep a reasonable position And to handle all of the pressure of all the people that get upset at anything you do left

or right in the middle centrist your to centrist to to left you to right you're unreasonable you're too reasonable you're too nice you're not nice enough well suddenly I feel like I'm in a marriage doesn't seem like yeah it does I think that this is why this is the era for disagree ability if you're not easily swayed because you're somehow insensitive enough that you just want to Keep to first principles whatever it is that you believe that seems to be the best hedge against getting swept up in the madness of others how so well I

guess I when I go metacognitive I look at my yearning for group belonging and then I also watch my inability to belong to groups that say crazy things yeah and so those are those are two conflicting feelings I think sometimes when people look at me they say wow you're really contrarian and you have an Easy time standing up to you know the conventional wisdom and I don't think it's it's it's that true I just think when those two things fight inside me dialectically the disagree ability is so strong because it's protecting a comprehensive view of

the world and so since everything already kind of fits together fairly well I would say I'm much it's much harder to sway me because the number of things I would have to move cognitively to accommodate a wrong Idea mmm is quite large it seems unnecessary but it also seems like we should be able to disagree on things and you should be able to point out with reasonable courtesy that there's something wrong with someone's idea and it not become a big personal thing but oftentimes that's not the case well so a lot of the things I

think that we're exploring are what I would think of as heuristics they're sort of rules Of thumb that worked fairly well within some domain of definition and we've gotten so many of these conflicting rules I mean the rules of thumb themselves conflict so for example he who hesitates is lost conflicts with nothing ventured nothing gained or something like that sorry no it's well I forget there's the cautionary aphorism and then there's the be bold aphorism and so we don't have a good way of sorting out conflicts that Occur at the heuristic level and then you

also have heuristics meant for social cohesion conflicting with ground truths so this is why biology is always controversial because biology is a science that tells us many of the things that we wish were true or just not true you know I always think about Ben Shapiro as facts don't care about your feelings well biology cares about your feelings it just laughs at them and stomps on them and makes them you know Feel very sad well it also tries to explain your feelings to wait right exactly yeah but you know if you really understand biology the

world is so dark and so interesting and beautiful and crazy that it's very hard to recover simple ideas about how people should be once you really realize that are being Apes has deep consequences yeah I have a very minimal understanding of biology but in that understanding I've come to accept some things just about being a Person that I've never considered before such as all the different things that are running your decision-making like just what we're talking about like the the need to be in a group and all these are probably evolutionary advantages to you know

fostering tribal behavior so you could all work together and feed each other you know this is always pulling at you and you know when when people give people a hard time about virtue signaling it is kind of gross When someone virtue signals you know but we understand what it is it's gross because we've all done it right that's one of the gross things about it when someone is just like really try hard to act like you know they're disgusted by the way people behave because they would never behave like that and they just want to

let you know I'm above this type of behavior what's most likely because they weren't above that kind of behavior at some point in Their life or they're not currently really above that type of behavior but they wish they were or the part of them that's speaking is the part that's above that behavior but that's not the part that's gonna be operative after 11:00 on a weekend at a bar yeah three shots in all bets are off right heels are off the wagon so I think we don't we don't see ourselves we are permanently in our

own blind spot because the part of us that is you know just and righteous and good Seems to know very little about the other part what's also this thing this need to belong and need to be accepted like we work to be accepted instead of work to be someone that you would want to be a part of the group instead of being like really honest about who you are and how you think and how you behave and how you operate in the world instead of doing that and trying to prove upon that you try to

project an image of this well then what here's a question for us Why is vice signaling so much more powerful than virtue signal Vai signaling like a person who admits their problems like an alcoholic who steps up and says I've got a real issue could be that way or it could be sort of Dan Bilzerian type fight signaling like you wanna know what I'm into I'm into hot chicks weed and guns and I'm making tens tons of money and showing it off well he's super honest right now that's one of the reasons and you he's

bulletproof In that regard but you can't [ __ ] with him like you can't say hey look at you you're just a playboy he'd be like yeah yeah I like girls yeah it works you know what else right now I'm nice like he's a nice guy talk to Dan Bilzerian he's friendly he's not bad guy no I mean he you know he had he had this post which was a he was I think offering a hand to a woman up a stair and I said come with me I'll ruin your life but it'll be fun

you know it was Just like it's so disarming yeah and I think that this is also partially you know a secret to your success which is that you're a nice guy you're really into fighting you you know you hunt elk you're clear about which ones you're gonna kill which ones you want based on the reproductive cycle you're promoting all sorts of things that people don't want to talk about - a fairly conscious level and it's produced an incredible level of Trust in an era where all of the virtue signaling gives way I mean if you

scratch any person enough below the surface you're gonna see that they're really warning you about themselves and so the people who are the most sort of self-critical and and this is like you know I think I brought this up recently on Twitter about meta honesty where there was in the Castro in San Francisco there was a bar restaurant that was advertising free food Naked servers plus false advertising it was just fun and playful and as a result you know you had an instant desire to eat there and press them yeah so I think that in

this world of virtue of signaling vais signaling is really the growth industry and that's that's what's working for good people because they are more in touch and you know they are gonna lie to you and they're gonna do all the self-interested things but they're not going to surprise you quite As much well in the case of dan Bilzerian I really don't think he's gonna lie to you I don't think that's what he's doing I think what he's doing is living like a guy who's got a hundred million dollars and happens to be 35 years old

and likes to bang hot chicks and fly around in private jets and live in some if you see that [ __ ] house that he's got he just bought some crazy house in like Bel Air I guess with that weed money Jesus he's got it looks like You probably cost 100 million dollars or something ridiculous like that it's a [ __ ] insane house but that's what he likes yeah you know the guy tricht likes to drive around Ferraris and and but he's a nice guy so it's like well where what's what's wrong with this

picture what's wrong with his pictures he's doing things I look at this this is his house what in the holy [ __ ] is that does he have a golf course on his roof what Is that this is a [ __ ] ridiculous house look at this [ __ ] place he gives his address out that his address it's pretty hard to hide that thing why the [ __ ] would he give his address Alex I don't think you can get there it's in Bel Air whoa look at this house it's preposterous anyway this is

what he likes but it why is that bad I mean we only have a hundred years if everything goes perfect I know what Do you give a [ __ ] like why does everybody ship but they do give a [ __ ] they give a [ __ ] a lot because for a lot of folks that are working you know making a good living making you know 50 grand a year or whatever that's completely out of the realm of possibility right and his lifestyle wouldn't be sustainable for them I mean yeah because he's taking real

risk there's no question about it when you you know you get everybody stoned and Then you take them to fire automatic weapons out in the desert oh yeah that's real risk and also the gambling he doesn't a lot of like crazy gambling well but this is the thing about the the relationship with the unforgiving this is partially why right you're UFC and jiu-jitsu life is that when you have a relationship with the unforgiving you can say you know that guy that guy doesn't really know what he's doing but then you're you're in the ring you

know You're the man in the arena and and you find out very quickly whether or not the trash-talking you know paid off or it didn't and I think that many people have no relationship with the unforgiving I can take them out on a hike into you know the let's say the Trinity wilderness and then two hours in they'll just sit down and say I want to go home right you're thinking like okay you're you're signaling something but there's there's no car service and there's we're Not calling a helicopter you know it just yeah there's this

if you live in the social layer you're surprised by the existence of the unforgiving but yeah well one on one hand I want to support people's ability to do whatever the [ __ ] they want on one hand I want to support someone's ability to sit in front of a computer and whether you're working you're writing code or you're writing a script or you're just [ __ ] playing video games yeah I want to support your Ability to do whatever you want to do yes you if you have the means if you're not you know

with your families not starving this is what you enjoy doing why do I care but it as a person who's experienced a fair amount of adversity especially self-imposed adversity mm-hmm I would I would tell you that you would benefit from it I've benefited from it and I think you'd benefit from it too you don't want to be that guy the two hours into the hike says I want to go Home you don't want to be that guy you want to be that person just says well this is what we're doing and I'm gonna figure out

how to do this and I'm gonna show character and I'm gonna I'm gonna be proud of myself at the end of this I mean I might have to walk for six hours and when it's all over my legs might be shaky and I might have to sit down but that Gatorade is gonna taste so good it's gonna be like the greatest Gatorade of all time cuz You drink it you be like earn the [ __ ] out of this all right you're gonna feel it and I think we learn about ourselves through especially self well

any kind of adversity you know look I'm coming off of being evacuated from the fires which was for me not that difficult you know I'm not poor I got a hotel I brought my family to the hotel we got safe got my dog to the to the podcast studio and everybody's alright you know but for those firefighters I mean 12 hour shifts Battling the blaze for people who lost their homes some of them tried to save it there was a story about a guy in Malibu that climbed on top of his roof with a hose

and tried to fight off the fire and he got severe burns and he's in the hospital and I mean it's raining Ash and and and and these chunks of [ __ ] fire on people these little embers they're falling from the sky and this guy's trying to save his house I mean that guy literally went through the Fires he'll be a different person after this and no question we've been in something of a reality drought the number of people who have very little relationship to reality I mean you know I used to live in Cambridge

Massachusetts and you you'd come in from Boston and there would be the signs that freshed killed chicken like no bones about it man fresh killed chicken but like chicken McNuggets nobody quite knows what what part of the chicken is a McNugget right it's just some abstraction that comes to you and so I think we've gotten very divorced there are all these layers of indirection between us in the world and when a fire happens it's so overwhelming and we were just choking on the SF smoke in the Bay Area there's it just it gets real after

having been unreal for a very long time yeah it's unavoidable it makes you it makes you buck up like you got to get out of there like we got evacuated Thursday at 2:30 in the morning we were like we gotta get the [ __ ] out of here like it I don't give a [ __ ] what you leave behind just go keep your body and go everything else it's either replaceable or you don't really need it that much anyway just [ __ ] get out of there and when you see that fire raging over

those hills and helicopters are dropping water on it and then another house explodes because the gas line gets hit it's just you you I saw that you see that you go oh there's this is not enough people in the world to save you there's not enough [ __ ] firefighters or cops there's too many houses there's too many people and a bunch of these houses are gonna go you got to get the [ __ ] out of there and but there's a certain I was with a bunch of my friends from my neighborhood and my

friend Tom Segura and his wife we all stayed at the same hotel right and we felt we there was like a tangible sense Of community well this is that that I'm I love this point let's imagine you go for a wedding and they house you with your third cousins people you barely know if you're lucky enough that the sewage system breaks and like stuff is leaking out of the ceiling and you guys all have to do heroic crazy stuff to save the house you're gonna be closer to your third cousin than you are you know

to your uncle right and this is this very strange feature of the world that Kind of a random arrival of diversity is very often what Bond's you to some particular human being and if you avoid adversity in groups your whole life you probably don't realize that you're never fully activated as a human being or particularly you know if if men I think don't form groups that in some sense fight or battle their contests together so there's this very weird fact that apparently humans are the only species that organize contests in teams you know This is

an intrinsic feature of being human contests yeah do other animals have any contests well just if they spot chimps you know we'll have these incredible raiding parties and they're very methodical and they'll they'll attack somebody else but I don't think that they practice it it's like okay you're Red Team chimp and you're routing chimp well we're the only ones that do stuff like that that can communicate right like dolphins can communicate but They don't do stuff like that right or you have individual sparring like you'll have two bears learning to play with each other because

it's safer to play with your brother and childhood than it is to just suddenly show up against some big-ass bear and have to compete for females I had William von Hippel on a couple days ago and he's the author of the social leap and we were actually talking about this about one of the things that Made human being successful as we came down from the trees and started walking around the grasslands is our ability to organize and to work and coordinate together yeah well in the you know like African wild dogs are fairly good at

this and you watch what they do in their spare time very often they just take the piss out of each other so that they actually come to each other's age eight at a very high level in times of need but like you know when you're just Hanging out around the fire hose fire house you're really just giving each other [ __ ] all the time right and so there's something about the way in which we play being kind of divergent from the way in which we behave when we actually just need each other and it's

like you you need to be on that line you know let's say you know throwing burlap bags and I just need you to do that thing and we're both facing something together doesn't know it doesn't have to be Fighting in a militaristic situation but I do think that this is one of the weird things that's going on with all of this emphasis on care and feelings is that often men need to give each other [ __ ] in order to form very deep bonds right if I can't tease you right and if I don't know

where the line is like there is this line which is like dude that was way too far right we all know that those lines exist and we sometimes have to go up to them and sometimes we have to Experiment by going over them but if somebody says I don't like the way you're talking that seems very insensitive my response is well you're gonna keep me from forming a deep bond with that person you just don't know that that's how we do it yeah they're shielding they're putting up their shield right and often is you know

to project a certain image to you they want to be taken seriously they want some respect they can't deal with You goofing on them that's true and goofing can go wrong but yeah but I think that one of the things that I've been fascinated by is where did all this madness come from and I increasingly am wondering whether it comes from social and emotional learning that started to be taught in schools around emotional intelligence so this whole idea of EQ I think had a lot to it but not all the bugs were worked out because

a lot of things that kind of are in the Neighborhood of bullying might be actually intimacy building mmm right and so if something turns into some super disgusting deadly hazing ritual we all say what the hell are you people doing but on the other hand if it's sort of three clicks back from that line and it's you know there was mild discomfort we humiliated each other a little bit yeah and now we're friends for life then you know the fear of the hazing ritual gone wrong may actually stop people from Ever actually making the really

deep bonds to last the life well isn't it like everything else some people are good at things and some people suck at it some people are good at being silly with their friends and some people go too far I mean youyou experienced that like I've had friends who experienced that where they do a podcast and on the podcast they [ __ ] with each other and they'll have someone come up to them that they don't even know right off the Street and immediately say something like ruthlessly insulting to them and they're like what the [

__ ] and you know yeah man you do that show your podcast all the times like okay you're doing it wrong I don't know you we're not friends we're not bonding here you're walking up and saying something mean calling someone fatso exactly yeah it's like they didn't just not good at it and oftentimes that's some sort of a sign of social intelligence a lack of social Intelligence a lack of I mean who knows what's going on in their home might just be bad information from parents and their growing up in this environment of just very

low-level social skills and now what we're doing is I mean I think that you're spot-on we're now going to try to readjust everyone around our weakest players so now the idea is that because that can be said in a horrible way we're not gonna let anyone say anything remotely Adjacent to it yeah you can't do anything that would be a precursor to it so you're just gonna say well you see that little patch of bad cells over there we're gonna cut off your leg in order to stop that cancer it's just like could we do

something a little bit more surgical well and also there's some things that your there's a reason why we have this instinct to mock things yeah it's because people get out a lot and then they demand too much goddamn Attention and they become a problem and this is a I think I believe this goes back to hunting parties and hunter gatherers were the one person who just wanted too much attention like you you're [ __ ] it up for this group effort and that's kind of what happens socially when people claim these very ridiculous victim statuses

right you know and there's a picture that I put up on my Instagram a couple weeks ago of this guy he had this crazy makeup on and He had this ridiculous description of himself like non-binary queer that also identifies as a Muslim and he was talking about quantum physics that quantum physics got helped him appreciate his queerness and I looked at that I said okay maybe or maybe you just [ __ ] crying out for attention and all I wrote was makes sense definitely doesn't seem crazy and people got mad at me for that for

something so obvious I looked I just Peered into the [ __ ] deep dungeon that is the comments section for a moment and I saw people like you would think that the people that are most susceptible to suicide you would leave them alone but your cruelty is you know you're exposing your cruelty like listen that's silly that guy needs better friends your friends are you gonna tell you you're silly that crazy makeup of your scene this guy no look at this a British Iraqi gay Non-binary and also identify as Muslim listen you need too much

goddamn attention that's all I'm saying I'm not saying you're a bad person you should kill yourself you shouldn't be queer be whatever you want to be but if you're going that hard right that hard to define yourself yeah like that is Nydia [ __ ] that's [ __ ] annoying but your point your point is is that you have to titrate the negative feedback yes right and so what you did was you gave him a Small dose look court you might want to course-correct a little bit well the idea that there's any course correction you're

not sitting there celebrating this right well that's that's the thing yeah yeah you're supposed to celebrate it I'm supposed to celebrate so many things yeah well you know what you can celebrate it that's okay but you shouldn't get mad if I go oh that might be a little nuts Cuz it's obvious little nuts it's a little nuts to paint your face with glitter it's a little nuts it's a little nuts if that was just a regular person who's like hi work at jcpenney my name is Wendy and this is what I like to wear on

my face like okay Wendy's a crazy [ __ ] look at Wendy go look at Wendy look at her face what is she doing I don't know man she got [ __ ] crazy glitter and our hair is 15 different colors yeah man Okay look at it this way I have this weird thing which I sometimes it's called maquila phobia the fear of cosmetics really oh man lips what kind I shall know it's like a guy laughs well this is the thing is is that sometimes it looks somewhat normal and then suddenly doesn't integrate and

the person just looks like they've got crazy stuff stuck to their head yeah and you're like you've gots crazy stuff stuck to you well that's how I perceive It now here's the question I can't be in touch like it can't be Eric's got a problem with makyla phobia it has to never heard that word it's freaking me out it has to be yeah it has to be Eric can't accept people who wear makeup huh and and my question would be from first principles how do you tell who to have sympathy with because this has been

somewhat debilitating for me really yeah sure so it's been a real issue like You've struggled with it yeah struck weave you struggled with the feeling or struggle with the fact you'd have if everybody actually experienced if you remember Tammy Faye Baker right so she was famous for freaking people out because she had no concept of how much coming up is too much just too much yeah now what if somebody looks normal and then you turn around and suddenly they're Tammy Faye Baker and you never can predict when that's going to happen So that's like an

interesting question about do we accept the person who I don't know why I have this it's just that some thing in my mind well because you're a logical person and you're looking at this Warpaint that people are putting on and you don't understand the desire to do this well I do understand you do but you don't understand actually doing it I don't understand why it looks normal like I have the feeling that to other People it looks very different than the way it looks to me right well they've just accepted it maybe sometimes I accept

it and then suddenly you know I shake it it's like you're shaking out of the movie like you see a movie where the suddenly the mic is visible from the top oh it's a movie and and that but anyway we all have these weird quirks the question is with whom should we be sympathetic and with whom do we do we say well you're being judgemental with Me it's women's shoes that have gigantic heels though stilettos that they could barely walk in yeah that one freaks me out it freaks me out because I see women walking

and I'm like this is so crazy this is a choice that you're I mean I can't imagine I'm paranoid I guess maybe I've seen too much physical conflict I can't imagine wearing something that would physically compromise me to the point where I literally can't run away Right cuz you can't run away in those things if you're in like stilettos like these little things that you walk around in and your feet are all smushed in you're you're basically doing tiptoes everywhere you go and you [ __ ] you have to be killing you by the other

night right right you're not running away there's a wolf chasing you or some [ __ ] there's something going down you're not you're not getting away it's just it's a weird disease like the desire to Lengthen your legs right and to give this graceful up here what's called lordosis behavior lardo says lordosis I'm learning so much today okay so high heels were originally developed for men to appear taller not sure if it was to appear taller only or if it was for riding I can't reverse it yeah maybe if a lot of people don't know

cowboy boots yeah the reason why they slip-on like that is when the horse bucks and takes off your Boots fall off they're supposed to I didn't know that yeah that's the whole idea behind them the reason you slip on and slip off and they have that he'll okay there's that wooden heel that he'll slips into the stirrups so when you get when the horse bucks you don't want to get dragged son you wanted that [ __ ] to just fly all right and then you're on your back going oh look at that horse go and

then you go pick up your boots because they've fallen off And the [ __ ] horse is gone but at least you're alive oh that's that expression he died with his boots on if you yeah if you hit well not really I think that's like a gunfight type deal but I think if you get dry mean if you drag the horses are gonna run over rocks and [ __ ] you're done people die all the time that are wearing regular shoes that shove their feet in the stirrups and then you're stuck that's why cowboy boots

come off like that yeah I remember When I used to ride horses we'd have the the guy leading the trail would like take us up to a gallop and suddenly say emergency dismount was really terrifying yeah and you know you'd have to do it at speed very very quickly but I think that high heels got taken over by women because a lot of the things that we claim that we like about heels that is the you know I do it for height like the way it makes the leg look probably secondary to the curvature of

the back And the way in which that is typically associated associated with the sexual receptivity yes I was that particular posture that the heel connotes and so the way I read it is that the cost of the heel is part of the communication in other words I'm willing to do something that is clearly not comfortable or for my benefit in any other way so much so that you can tell that I must be interested in sending a signal 100% yeah so the well but you have to deny the Signal too so part of the signaling

is to say oh these are actually my most comfortable shoes they always say that girls are hilarious they're so comfortable these are so comfortable right like how is that even possible those aren't Crocs yes but but but the deception has to be part of oh now I'm like picturing Crocs with heels that was really weird well the deception has to be you have to you have to decide that you're not Ridiculous no it's a shared deception yes because then then as look as the guy I have to say oh that's so interesting yeah but that's

a lie well we're all lying but it's mutually understood as a lie yeah but when the girls are sick yeah girls could say these are so comfortable because they're not killing them because they've accepted a higher level of pain tolerance with Footwear than men have like if I had to just jam my feet into Something pointy yeah like some point yes spanish dancer type shoes that would hurt after a while everywhere thai I won't do eyes I hate those things yeah okay so that's some kind of uncomfortable thing that we do to ourselves as men

yeah well I used to have to wear one when I drove limos I think well I've definitely worn one since then but very rarely area where I could kill you pretty easily with a tie like if someone has a tie on and I grab A hold their time yeah boy unless you're a lot bigger than me I might kill you you got a hole your tie tie is a hard thing to shake loose it's really strong like you could you a good tie is not gonna rip yeah someone gets ahold of your tie at the

knot yeah just twists and holds on to you all they have to do is hold on to you grab an arm and just wrap their legs around you and hold on to that tie you're a dead man you're dead you're giving them a weapon yeah He'll you all the time all right you've convinced me no more ties I just grabbed that and just [ __ ] twist you don't have much time men you you don't have much time to get this arm off your neck such a UFC figure out it's a jujitsu spin because UFC

you don't wear clothes to be able to grab a hold of someone's clothing like like a person with a leather jacket if you're talking [ __ ] and you have a leather jacket on you're with a guy who knows judo yeah you are Beyond [ __ ] you don't hit this this guy might as well have cannons coming out of his body like you're you're doomed okay 100% doomed he's gonna grab that leather jacket and basically this handles he's gonna throw you up in the air and he's gonna hit you with the world the whole

world is below I mean he's gonna drive you into the world and you're so [ __ ] and you don't even realize it so how often you vent have been fist fights never never man I don't Know I don't want to have nothing to do with that I just get away I would never want to get in a fist fight no I know is fascinating to me about this sort of the world here it's always talking about fighting and what can happen but it's just in our world there's like almost none of this in you

know relatively boring white guy middle-aged you ever grown WorldStarHipHop that shit's all day every day there's plenty of videos you moles and that's what it never most Of time nothing happens right but the one time when [ __ ] does happen if you don't know how to defend yourself you're really [ __ ] this is this is true but the thing is is that in all the practicing that you do you're also exposing yourself to the potential for injury oh yeah so there's a question as to whether you're safer if you spend all of your

time in this kind of well what if something happens I want to be prepared but the preparation for it is Itself potentially fairly hazardous that's unquestionable but isn't that just like the guy who sits on the couch it never goes into the woods cuz he doesn't want to get tired I know it's very similar like here we are I'm 51 years old and I'm in and it all works tada yeah so even though I've been injured I'm right here everything works oh yeah but you also got out of [ __ ] fixed what what if

the UFC thing was like bold and interesting when you were A young guy do you think you would have I would have 100% done it and I probably would have a much harder time having this conversation that's right yeah for sure yeah so I mean I think I think you've hit the sweet spot where you got the skills you've been in a training idiom you really know what you're talking about and you're getting front-row seats but not actually having to have your brain particularly take the pounding there's no getting away from That that is the

unfortunate reality that every fighter accepts there's no getting away from that there's there's an absolute possibility and it's not just your head it's also your joints the big part is your back and your neck I know many guys that have neck impingements and disc herniation xand fused neck discs and then nerve pinch where their nerves are impinged to the point where they have atrophy and their arms I Know several guys who have that where they have one arm that's smaller than the other arm and it severely impedes their ability to move and they used to

be world champions to guys that have been on the show bas Rutten Pat moe two of the greatest of all time both guys have one small arm in one regular-sized arm because of neck impingement so their nerves are literally pinched down by all the swelling and scar tissue and damaged Discs yeah well since we became friends I started just casually looking at this world and it's utterly fascinating I mean there's there's nothing like it well the jiu-jitsu world I think you would there's there's two different worlds right there's the MMA world which incorporates all the

different martial arts and then there's the jujitsu world and the jujitsu world I think you would like out yes you would love it because it's basically but to call it chess is Not quite fair right because it's more complex than chess there's much more degrees of freedom or so high but it's also easier to win if someone's better than chess cuz like you even if someone is fairly competent in chess will take a few moves to beat them and jiu-jitsu if someone's fairly competent the other one is a master it'd probably crush you very quickly

but the when you watch two really high-level guys trying to set each other up it's this crazy rolling Exercise and leverage and position and unless the knowledge of moves that Eddie Bravo versus yeah it's hard to even know what's going on it's crazy if you don't know it's one of my more difficult challenges of being in a commentator is when the fight goes to the ground explaining to people watching at home what he wants to do right now is good his right leg over his arm and as soon as he does that now that arm

is stuck he's in trouble right now yeah you know I'd like to try to explain that to people so they could follow along go oh I see I see and he's gonna grab that he's gonna arch his back and he tapped and people go oh and it gets people really excited about jujitsu because they see that and go oh this is like really complicated like he's got there's like a dance he's doing the other guy's trying to resist it the first time I saw the Gracie breakdown of particular fights where they've committed to memory Every

move yeah it's like replaying the great games of like morphine chess and you're just thinking wow okay there's the Evergreen game there's the immortal game and that that to me is fascinating but it's actually more interesting to me in UFC arena because of the fact that that's only a component and that it's yes just what I didn't understand was how much we could get close to unrestricted fighting and still have People fairly dependably survived with minimal obvious disfigurement there is even there are some we could even be safer if we eliminated weight cutting the weight

cutting is the number one health issue in the sport in my opinion yeah number two is the brain damage and the impact and you know broken bones and things along those lines but the number one is weight cutting because it's so unnecessary it's such a such an issue that needs to be addressed because these Guys want to compete at the highest weight possible so do you know how it works no ok so if you were gonna compete in the 170 pound division but you actually weighed 190 what you would do is you would wait until

you would follow a pretty strict diet keep your bodyweight in your fat a certain level and then when it comes down to a few days before you would dehydrate yourself pretty radically yeah and then rehydrate yourself scientifically using the crow There's a bunch of guys like george lockhart guys who are experts in this and then they'll give you the exact right amount of nutrients right amount of potassium and zinc and they want to replenish all of your electrolytes and get you in a perfect balance but you're still compromised and if you don't have a guy

like a george lockhart or someone who's a real expert in nutrition and understands biology and can get you back into that position you're most likely Going to compete compromised but you can accept that significant compromising because you're going to be a bigger person than the person you're fighting but they also like in boxing in particular the vast majority of deaths have occurred in the lighter weight divisions and a lot of it is not just because of the head trauma but because its head trauma to someone who's dehydrated that's interesting yeah it's like it's it's it

sucks and it's it's Contrary to what martial arts are supposed to be about martial arts supposed to be about skill for skill it's not supposed to be about cheating and the cheating thing is like you're dehydrating yourself it's extension cheating you're saying you're 170 pounds but you're you're like if you say this the 170 pound champion and get on scale he's 193 what the [ __ ] going on this isn't a hunting seventy pound how Frustrating if I want to meet you in a different class like I wanted to fight you my whole life but

we're we're really separated well you can lose weight the right way look if somebody wants to compete at 170 pounds in my humble opinion they should actually weigh 170 pounds my friend cam Haynes is a ultra marathon runner and one of the things that he does when he gets ready for ultra marathons is he lose his body Weight but he doesn't have any body weight to lose so he'll he'll burn 3000 calories and eat 2,000 calories and that's how he lose his weight he lets his body eat itself so he gets down to the 160s

and that's when he runs these gigantic long races like 240 miles but I know he's done this you can do this like you don't have to dehydrate yourself but they choose to dehydrate themselves because they replenish and then they get much Bigger when they get inside the Octagon when he's 165 he's actually 165 that's just what he weighs and that's a the best way to run 240 miles so he does it through discipline but these guys that are doing it and it's not their fault because it's already been established it's a part of the sport

it's been there for years and years and years and it's it's sanctioned cheating and everybody does it and it's the worst part of the sport because it's really damaging to Your kidneys yeah terrible for your organs your your body starts to shut down when you do it too often your body doesn't want to lose weight anymore so it starts to really hold on to that water and guys fall out let's sleep and pass out and bang their heads off walls and fights get cancelled like probe like championship level fights get cancelled because guys blackout and

crack their head off the wall and this is this has happened in the in the UFC before it's Just super super unnecessary and unfortunate and part of it is because there's not enough weight classes there's like you know there's 155 then there's 170 the difference between 155 and 170 is not just 15 pounds because if you actually weigh 155 and this guy's dropping down to 170 that [ __ ] could be 190 plus right and he's just figuring out a way to cut weight to get down to there and that happens all the time so

you're dealing with you know it Could be 2530 pounds difference between you two guys if you're if you actually weigh what the weight class is when you get into the Octagon so people are forced to drop weight they're forced to go lower if they want to compete at a world-class level they're forced to take this extra risk and it could be mitigated it could it could all be stopped by hydration test the the UFC could step in all the athletic commissions could step in and say enough Is enough you're gonna fight it wet your way

and we're gonna give you more weight classes so you can figure out what's the wait for you to be best at and I hope it doesn't take someone dying before they figure this out because it's one of those things that people have done like circumcision they've done it forever so they just keep doing it but if they just started doing it tomorrow people be like why did you cut that baby's dick are you [ __ ] crazy well I've always cut Babies dicks I've been cutting babies dicks for years like this is right it's any

more of a Yiddish ex you get used to it well it's not just Yiddish I'm Catholic my dick got cut it's like practiced yeah across the board under the guise of you know being sanitary it's prevention of AIDS there's all these stupid reasons to cut dicks but it really it's just a tradition that doesn't make any goddamn sense now it's not the best analogy to weight cutting The cutting dicks I do want to pick up on an analogy which I'm curious about so when you're trying to describe the ground game yeah it's super tough for

a lay audience because the the picture doesn't necessarily match what you're seeing because the the layer of expertise makes a bunch of random arm movements and and head movements and hip movements yeah into something else we have the same problem in like math and physics where everybody wants to know Mmm what's going on with that thing and then when you I've been listening to like the physicists on your program I don't that you have many mathematicians but it's so confusing to figure out how to talk to the world about things that people everybody wants to

know about and I was just curious as if you saw a parallel in those two things though certainly very high art forms yeah Sean Carroll has done a really good job of trying to explain things neil degrasse Tyson's done a really good job trying to explain things glass I saw the explanation of gauge symmetry Lawrence Krauss yeah on your show which is like from to my way of thinking one of the most important principles in the world yeah still have no idea what the [ __ ] he said exactly well like well I've read his

book yeah and after I read his book that was the number one question I had I said I need you to explain to me what is Gauge symmetry what does that mean it's so weird that he didn't I don't think he expected gonna just bust it out yeah I don't think so either that's it but I think that it's so hard to like okay here's one of my well we'll get back to Gail symmetry maybe but like when people say the universe is expanding right what the [ __ ] does that mean every smaller every

smart person says into what right you know like it's the universe what is it Expanding into right and where's it going right and put it it doesn't make any sense because the linguistics of the universe is expanding isn't really what the but so you're saying the matter in the universe is moving outwards is that what the universe is expanding now what it means is the infinite universe is getting more infinite or no so the first of all was that they took did you say that yeah miss the Teva is kicking in yeah so if you

think about this bottle Okay right it's the slices of the bottle that are expanding but if you think of the bottle is the universe the Bott the bottle isn't expanding hmm it's just the cross-sections that are expanding and so that's what they really mean what they really mean is something like the space-time metric on space like cross-sections has its volume form when integrated is is higher something like that mm-hm Some mathematical statement but the universe is expanding is not helpful to me like if I wasn't able to read the math I would say I don't

get it well I don't get anything quite honestly I'm not being self-deprecating I don't get the Big Bang yeah I don't get it at all well okay here's what somebody should tell you okay there are two kinds of singularities when you try to solve n Stein's field equations for gravity so gravity is a thing Einstein tells us pretty much what we think gravity is it's the curvature of space and time and when we try to solve his equations we get these black hole singularities which called Swartz shield singularities well then we get this initial singular

which we associate back to the Big Bang with the Friedman Walker Robertson model in some sense those singularities are indications to us that we're not at the end of physics and that bang Stein's Equations aren't the real story and so rather than sort of saying they're a pretty good model up until this point and then we kind of really don't know what happened then we have the observational thing that we would map to the Big Bang and then we have the model thing that we would map to the Big Bang and to be honest with

you we pretty sure that our models don't make sense past a point and now we're having this conversation past the point where we're Pretty sure they don't make sense that would be much more honest to me but because we have this desire to to blow people's minds gratuitously and everybody wants to know how did everything begin and where are we in who are we and we want to sort of answer more of that than we probably should hmm that's an interesting way that makes sense let me give you an alternate spin on quantum mechanics okay

so typically people will say you know the Mind-blowing thing about quantum mechanics is that it's probabilistic and that is kind of mind-blowing but if you actually say it differently you say look in classical mechanics like Newton stuff that we feel more comfortable with you have good questions and bad questions like if you and I go hang out at the beach and I say to you hey where is that wave concentrated at what point does that wait the wave live you look at me and say it's a wave it's not Concentrated at a point it's all

along the shore so as a classical physicist you'd say that's not a good question Eric and when I ask you a good question like how fast is that wave front moving you know along this trajectory or something you can give me an answer and it's definite so as long as you ask a good question in classical mechanics you get definite answers when you go to quantum mechanics and you ask a good question Technically that means that the state vector is an observable of the hermitian operator representing the question nevermind funny thing happens you get deterministic

answers there's no probability involved whatsoever so if I ask a good question in quantum mechanics I have the same property that I do when I ask a good question in classical mechanics I get a definite answer there's no probability when I ask a bad question in quantum mechanics Instead of like classical mechanics that says you know screw off I'm not answering that that's ridiculous it's a bad question quantum mechanics says you really want to ask me a bad question alright I'll give you maybe this answer and maybe that answer and here's the probability distribution that

I'll actually give you either of those two answers and what's more I'll even kick it into the state that I that you asked about so for example if you ask where is That wave concentrated so like let's say this is my coffee cup and I drop a little drop in the center of it that creates a circular wave that radiates out and I say where is the wave concentrated well at one second it hits the coffee mug let's say is a big coffee hub and at one second after that it's concentrated again in the center

so that becomes a good question only when the wave becomes reconsecrated in the center of the cup right but if That wave were a quantum wave I could ask where is the wave concentrated and with equal probability suddenly the wave will concentrate at some point along the circle that represents the wave right so what would your answer be then well the point would be it'll concentrate it one of these points around the circle at random with equal width equal probability and suddenly the wave will concentrate randomly when it's a quantum question so This is why

quantum mechanics is so confusing quantum physics are so confusing to people well cuz they hear that and they go okay this is just confuse this when in my head like jello well that's the thing but the point of if I if I have a wave and I slow it down I can look at a wave in a coffee mug right and I can see that if I ask where is the wave concentrated you would say it's concentrated at like half an inch out from the center of the cup yes no Say no no not what

ring is a concentrated or what exact point it's not concentrated in an exact point but that wave in quantum mechanics which is not concentrated at an act point behaves differently when I ask a bad question so the point that I'm trying to get across is good questions have exactly the same properties in classical mechanics and quantum mechanics there's no introduction of probability theory the weird question is Why is quantum mechanics answering bad questions well maybe even weird a question is not just why's is it's quantum mechanics in an adolescent state of understanding I mean it

is it part of the problem that they don't know enough yet and they're trying to like explain what they do know what they can prove on paper and for a person like me like well what do you know and they're like well we know probabilities we know this we know that And a person like me who doesn't have any studying in it just goes love what does that mean well that's great so like let's say we were having a conversation about genetics and we were looking only at the DNA and we didn't see epigenetics right

in terms of like methylation patterns then you'd you'd shove everything on to DNA and maybe you had no concept of like development and the the model would work up to a point would explain why you have blue eyes or brown Eyes but it wouldn't explain all sorts of other things and so now then you over over develop that model so I think that what you're saying is really Einstein's intuition which is I'm not saying all right Stein I'm not saying that this is wrong I'm saying this is incomplete and then when we finally get the

answer we're gonna say oh that's why we used to think of it in those crazy terms hmm so back to gauge theory yeah gauge symmetry what the hell was that all right well Here's that here's the craziest thing okay there is a very confusing visual image of the fundamental unit that you need to appreciate what gauge symmetry is all about and I had Jamie loaded up under the tab called planet hop and this is going to each opf h OPF what the [ __ ] am i looking at you are looking at the most important

object in the universe what that looks like some trippy screensaver on your laptop take another puff my friend because it's worth it This is what you're looking at is a principal fiber bundle and it's an it is the earth those are the continents well yeah that's the cool part about it which is this is very confusing to figure out what you're looking at but it's finite in other words if we stay it for an hour or two on this and we actually answer all your questions you will actually know what a principal bundle is and

you will know the arena in which gauge Theory exists for folks at home that are Just listening and they what the [ __ ] of these guys talking about what is the name of this video Jamie it's not a video it's a small file on a page I typed in plain at hop and it was the first thing that showed up on math dr. on Oh dot e-d-u okay so extended thing planet h o PF for anybody who wants to look at this if you're just listening and you have no idea why I'm freaking out

on this this was done by a friend of mine named R or Barna Tong I actually coded the same thing up strangely enough didn't do it as brilliant a job of coloring it and it looks amazing by the way so okay what you're looking at is a two-dimensional sphere that is the surface of the earth where an extra circle is included at every point on the surface of that sphere which you're now visualizing and that extra circle which would be called the fiber when you take The totality of all of those circles together one for

each point on the surface of the sphere they create something called a three sphere that is all the points that are one unit of distance away from the origin in four-dimensional space so that three dimensional sphere is the analog of a two-dimensional sphere sitting in three-dimensional space so think about a caramel apple if you've ever made caramel apples you Get a disc of caramel and you wrap it around the sphere that is the apple surface right so this is the three dimensional version of caramel wrapped around the three dimensional sphere sitting in four dimensional space

now do you understand any of this Jamie I'm trying well dude it's totally trippy right yeah and so we're not gonna get it completely during this session however I think I lack the tools I don't think so If it we lack the time so the first thing is you are finding out that one of your friends thinks this is the most important object in the universe and you've never even heard of it right much less know that there's one visual example what's it [ __ ] how's this happening I know exactly it does look [

__ ] crazy well okay this is what was discovered in the mid-1970s as the connection between mathematics and different what we call Differential geometry and the discipline of particle theory so two guys Jim Simons the world's now the world's most successful hedge fund manager and cien yang a person who might art arguably be the world's first or second greatest living theoretical physicist had a lunch seminar and they said why don't we figure out how do we talk to each other and what they found out is they both had developed a version of this picture and

independently independently so it was The Rosetta Stone that unleashed a revolution so when Lawrence Krauss was talking to you about gage theory he he was saying things about chess boards and you color it white and you color it black and super confusing to me I would rather your people be confused about an actual example of the object on which we do gauge theory that you can visually see hmm right now if I started to tell you what gage theory is it's pretty simple so here's and here's a Description I never hear anyone say when you're

doing differential calculus I don't know if you remember differential calculus you're trying to figure out the slopes of lines you draw instantaneous rise over the run so that always makes sense to people okay I figure out how fast it's going up versus how fast it's going across but a question arises which is where do you measure the rise from so for example if I say what is the height of Mount Everest Jamie will say 30 was 35,000 yeah something crazy like that well let's just go a thousand say base well we're gonna get an internet

connection yes what do you think it is I don't know I can't remember I would say it's 35,000 what do you think that was 29 29 Oh tonight no okay what's the highest was the highest one is it key to all right key to the second right is it has Everest the highest yeah okay so okay Everest so 29 would you say 29 29 89 What unite above what sea level okay where is Mount Everest located the Himalayas what is that what see there's no ocean area right so right like we snuck in it's above

sea level and there's no ocean so we start from the center of the earth we have this structure called the geoid which is the interpolation of sea level as if see love as if the earth was only ocean and there was no tide right and as if there's some sort of uh so we snuck in The reference level that's my point is that we teach these kids to repeat why it's 29,000 and change above sea level and there's no sea right so that reference level is the magic of gauge theory right which is that we

measure the rise over the run based on a custom level so a level that we all agree upon so for example let's imagine that you and I are in some country experiencing hyperinflation right and I'm your boss and you say dude I need a raise I said Well look I've told you I would hire you for you know ten thousand dinars a month and you say yeah I said well your salary is constant I took the derivative of it I've paid you ten thousand five month ten thousand this month so you're getting the same amount

derivative equals zero it's constant salary now you have to come back at me in calculus and you say no I don't like your notion of the derivative because what you're doing is you're measuring the absolute number Of dinars that you're paying me but what I want to do is I want to measure it in purchasing power because I'm losing money every month that you don't increase my salary so I now come up with a version of the calculus in which my key salary is not constant because it's being measured relative to purchasing power rather than

absolute units that's gauged thing is that you're bringing in a reference level that does the differentiation so You're measuring rise over run by customizing the problem so these were two different applications of the calculus the cheating employer says I want to go with constant dinars the gifted employee says not so fast I know gage theory I want to use a custom reference level which is purchasing power right so it's like sneaking the geoid into Tibet to measure Everest I've got my custom level does this make sense to you yes it makes Sense right but now

explain it say what he said the way I mean we would need a new reference of what what you want to measure what would a new conversation to have a rough like a flat level right right I guess yeah it would be really difficult for me to recall a day from now maybe have the wheat pop a mushroom cap see what's up it's still in reference to quantum physics like how you would you gauge symmetry well but let you would let's look at some more Cool stuff okay at the visual cortex because everything that we

can do visually should inform what we can do linguistically so you should push everything into the visual realm that you can even buy that like I just showed you the hopf fibration which is the only in some sense the only mature picture I can show you of a principle fibration in geometry or physics that is honest and has the full complexity it's got a certain kind of knotted 'no stew it it's Got something that we would call curvature and it is visualizable and so it would be better that we spent you know a day or

two on this most an object which we think reality is based around and that you visually got comfortable with it and then you said okay now tell me again what gauge symmetry is and then instead of Lawrence talking about this chessboard and the colors and all this stuff by analogy you would actually be seeing gauge Theory Visually like I could program a computer and have done so just show you visually what a gauge theory is and it takes some time to sort of understand what the tripi pictures are but if let's bring up the Escher

staircase and Jamie has a nice wrinkle on this that instead of using MC escher staircase he's got this animated guy who just keeps going down hmm all right now what's going on with those stairs now the stairs are sort of an optical illusion because I obviously Can't just keep going down but then you build these system systems like rock-paper-scissors what's the best thing to throw in rock-paper-scissors well it depends on what you throw well but we should be able to agree that rock is better than scissors rock is better than citizens of papers better than

rock right so you go around that thing and now the the point is that you get to like rock is much better than rock right yeah that seems crazy now that concept Would be what we would call hollow no me the weird sentence rock is better than rock because of that going around the loop why rock is better than rock I don't get it well rock scissors is better than paper right paper is better than rock so by transitivity rock is therefore better than rock because you went around the loop and came back to rock

it's like an I'm a math yeah yeah or if like if you're if you're changing currencies and you don't spend any of it Because you keep you lose using your credit card by the time you come home you have more money than when you left because the exchange rates did some things so that when you changed into each currency you somehow got richer but by saying Brock is better than Brock you're denying the fact they're exactly the same well no they're not you're not addressing I just want to believe that the linguistic fallacy right so

the idea that this system here so those stairs in Engage theory would be these reference levels for the derivative mm-hmm and you can have situations where the reference levels don't knit flatly together right mm-hmm and so by virtue of that we would say that the system has curvature curvature is the assuredness of of these better than transitive statements what we're looking at folks for people just listening we're looking at if you've never seen those s-sure edges those sketches they're very strange because What there are is a bunch of staircases that appear to always be going

downhill even if one of them is above the other one it's very strange very strange and this one we're watching an animated guy roll down this staircase constantly even though it really looks like somehow or another it must go up somewhere but you don't ever see it going up but it's also a factor of the illusion of perspective and how it's drawn and and you know Playing games with lines exactly but if you do this very weird experiment which we didn't know about until the late 50s called the Aronoff Boehm experiment if you run a

electric current through a wire that's insulated it appears not to have any electromagnetic field outside of the insulation however if you do some sort of quantum interference experiment you can tell that there's current going through because it affects the Fage phase shift let's say of an electron Orbiting that insulated electromagnetic system so nobody thought that was going to happen because they thought well an insulator would keep we thought the electromagnetic field is what determines the shift in the electron but it's insulated so there is no electromagnetic field to worry about it turned out that it

wasn't the electromagnetic field alone it was some previous geometric concept which was called the electromagnetic potential that Determines something about the phase shift so this issue staircase in the case of electromagnetism it's like the photons are the analog of those steps they're partially would determine the derivative operators these reference levels and again in our discussion of the am i paying you the right amount in a hyperinflationary economy so all of these things you're trying to figure out well that's an optical illusion but that effect actually occurs In some systems not as an optical illusion yes

right so this weirdness requires a fair amount in terms of either study of math or learning visualizations but there's no way to achieve it in my experience with linguistic communications like all the stuff that gets said about you know the universe is expanding or let me tell you what it h theory is and why there's a reason it's confusing it's cuz it doesn't make any effing sense right I See what you're saying sort of but so this is this is like what Fineman said if you think you know quantum physics you don't know quantum physics

well there's there some of that like there's you know one of the most important things in the world is this thing called a spinner like the electrons and the protons correspond to things called spinners and the average person has no idea that spinners exist what's more spinners have a property That when I tell it to you linguistically won't make any sense all right okay let's do this with coffee okay yeah thank you sir perfect all right here's the problem okay hold your cup up sorry from the bottom and here's the first challenge without spilling it

okay I want you and without readjusting your grip on the bottom of your cup I want you to turn your cup 360 degrees no no sorry turn Your fingers should not change on the cup okay turn the cup 360 degrees without spilling it and try to take a sit okay that didn't work no now without coming back how would you take a sip if I got it all the way around that way yeah mr. jiu-jitsu man yeah no no you're gonna do it all right you ready yeah okay here we go oh you're gonna go

around circle 360 okay right now I'm screwed if I don't Bring it back underneath oh I see so that system required 720 degrees of rotation unexpectedly oh you just keep going right okay now the idea that there are objects that don't come back to themselves under 360 degrees of rotation but require 720 is probably something you've never thought about before in your life right but without that you wouldn't have the Pauli exclusion principle you wouldn't have the stability of matter And this thing is called the Philippine wine dance Jamie do you want - that's not

very seductive Jeff it seems like some very odd ethnic dance yeah but like maybe you could do 11th planet jiu-jitsu here we go so this spinner is one of the coolest most important objects anywhere and it was discovered to be important in physics by a guy named Paul Dirac right it's fun okay so this 720 theory is entirely responsible for the world that we live in this is so bizarre don't Knowbut an animation and nobody knows about it right like unless you're hanging out with physicists they don't tell you that electromagnetism has to do with

the fact that there's a secret circle at every point in space and time that's invisible to you they don't tell you that there's stuff that requires 720 degrees of rotation they just say mind-blowing stuff about whoa so what is happening in is 720 degrees of rotation in the Quantum world there's an object that is requiring this just the way the cup armed system requires 720 degrees for what options it's called a spinner and that spinner is how we model the electron the neutrino quarks all that is spin oriole matter sir that's a good long pause

I like it yeah and what where does this fit in in our model of the universe like what is the function of this why is it there what is it how do we know it's there Well we know it's there because when Dirac so there was this problem with like the Schrodinger equation Schrodinger equation takes one derivative in terms of the direction of time and takes two derivatives in the direction of all the spatial directions but because Einstein called us that space and time are woven together for the theory to be relativistic you need the

same number of derivatives of time as of space because space-time is sort Of one kind of semi unified object all right that means you either have to boost the number of derivatives of time up to two to match the two derivatives in the directions of space or you have to knock the two direct derivatives in the spatial directions down to one derivative to get it to be equal now One Direction gets you to something called the klein-gordon equation what Dirac did is he took a square root of the klein-gordon equation to get these Spinners so

he had these numbers he didn't understand at first that he was gonna get kicked into this world of spinners he came up with a square root equation in which a times be thought to be numbers was not equal to B times it was like equal to the negative of B times a so it was like what two numbers when you multiply them matter in which order that wasn't numbers it was matrices so this was one of the great insights you know rival tyne Stein in Terms of the depth of what it told us about the

universe most of us haven't really heard of Paul Dirac we don't realize that he has one of the three most important equations in physics now in when you say three most important important in how it's applicable to everyday life or important in how it's given us an understanding in quantum physics or important how its understand it it's it's understanding is significant Quantum physics men are talking about bedrock reality like you and I are having a conversation and if your a matrix fan and what we might call the construct okay what is the construct made of

made so the way I do it is I think of it as a newspaper story there's where and when did it happen there was who and what was involved and there's how and why okay so where and when is space and time clearly the who and the what to me let's Say the who is the spin Oriole stuff it's like electrons protons neutrons quarks the stuff that we're made of and then you and I are only able to see each other because we're passing photons back and forth which are forced particles they're not spin Oriole

they come back to themselves after 360 degrees they don't require 720 now so this is sort of the you know if you're going to go to a play it have the the dramatic personnel of the play given to you at the Beginning so this is what this universe is it's a story about space and time where and where and when about what is in that you know like who are the players and what equipment are they using that's like bosons and fermions and then there's the how and the why which is the equations and the

lagrangian's that govern the rules of play you know so for example if you and I you know start go to the beach and we've got a ball and a Net and you think we're gonna play volleyball and we actually somebody says no no we're gonna play CPAC tuck row which is like volleyball played with the feet in a martial art style which is awesome yeah we've showed a video on that recently sleeves from Thailand er yeah they're they're really good at hazing it's amazing it's like ballet martial arts soccer is volleyball happening one thing we

should we should do this as a nation That's a different set of rules for a ball and a net and two teams that you could have done it one way is volleyball and you could have done it another way is CPAC Tucker where you're using your feet and on your hands mm-hmm so those that's sort of the breakdown of what a physics theory is you got to tell me where and when you got to tell me what's in the game and you got to tell me what the rules are and that's what this place is

and so Theoretical physics is the most interesting of all of these fields to me not because it speaks to us about our daily lives because it speaks to us about well where are we where is where is this thing taking place so it seems to me that there's a small number of people like that are studying this stuff that are they're getting past biology they're getting past gravity climate change all those different variables that we're constantly dealing With and they're they're getting to the very things that make everything yeah and what is it under the

wiring lift lifts up the board what's going on in here right it's like getting to a computer down to the 0 & 1 logic gates right yeah so that thing we've got three or four equations we've got three or four different kinds of objects in the system we seem to be and people are gonna not like what I'm about to say but screw them we seem to be almost at the End like these equations are so beautiful they're so tight that it's almost most mysterious because it feels like this thing like a movie that ended

prematurely how so well when we found the Higgs particle at the LHC there wasn't anything left that needed to to close to explain the system we know that there's dark matter out there that we don't understand we know that there's dark energy out there that we don't understand because of astronomical Observations but all the stuff that we know about when you look at it and collide it at high energies and figure out what mutates into what there's nothing missing anymore so it's like it's like you have got this odd thing where everything got very very

simple very unified and it felt like we were going to get one or two more giant unifications and the whole thing would be tied up with a bow and right now we just don't have anything that is needed To close the system so for example when you have radioactive carbon decay what you see is that one of the neutrons flips into being a proton and it spits out an electron when it does that right so it's like it's like a trans nucleon it shifts what it is okay that electron doesn't carry off enough energy to

explain how energy would be conserved there was something missing so this guy Wolfgang Pauli said I bet there's a particle that's neutral so we can't see It that we won't leave a track in a cloud chamber it won't have any effect that we can see electromagnetically but it's carrying away some of the energy because I'm not going to give up an electron servation of energy just because this particular process doesn't seem to conserve it and sure enough there was the sneaky particle that was spiriting away some of the energy of the system that couldn't be

seen because it didn't interact electromagnetically and It didn't interact according to the strong force the only thing you could use to trap it would be the weak force and the weak force was so weak that it was very hard to see it okay well there's no neutrino that I know of left to find there's no thing that's missing in our standard model and I'm just not satisfied nobody's satisfied that the play is over why would the play be over just because we've discovered all the neutrinos well know it's that we had an Easy job when

there was stuff that was missing then you just hypothesize I bet there's some invisible thing that's carrying away some stuff let's go look for something that's hard to see so they find it and so they'd find Higgs so they find the Higgs they find the neutrinos they find work gluon plasma well I wasn't gonna go there but I was gonna say that they found like alternate generations of matter so you and I are made out of the first generation of Matter but there could be like alternate Joe Rogan it made out of second-generation matter or

third generation we don't know of any generations beyond these to hold up yeah what are you talking about so like the electron okay has it has a relative called the muon that behaves exactly like the electron except it's heavier and the up-down the up and down quarks that make up protons and neutrons have relatives called strange quarks and Charmed quarks so there's like a second copy of Lego that has all the same properties as the first copy of Lego except it's at a different mass level denser but it's a almost identical copy nobody wanted this

thing so the famous joke is that there was this guy Isadora Robbie who was like a you know kind of an ethnic Jew in in New York and when they found the second generation of matter he responded as if it was a group of people at a deli and he said who Ordered that you know and so that's like that's the joke in physics who ordered that nobody knew there was the second generation and then like then they hit their self for the head you know there's a third one too everybody's just think what why

where are these things coming from so the fact that you don't know this like what a profound disconnect that you're having all these physicists on the show and these are the basic secrets that were these are rock solid These aren't this isn't speculative multiverse string theory woowoo Schrodinger's cat stuff you know this is like this is ground truth and we don't know it and we don't know it because nobody will show you a picture of the hopf fibration or there's a concept called the group which is how we think about symmetry that no mathematician or

physicist can you know go a day without talking about groups almost and we act as if it doesn't need to be taught in High school like it's - it'll blow your mind we're not going to teach you the group's even exist so we've built the professional version of the subject around objects that we don't even tell you exist when you're studying in school so though if you think about the portal story in childhood there's the story about either it's a rabbit hole or a looking-glass or a wardrobe or platform nine and a half or whatever

these things are I don't know what the Harry Potter Version of it is but how do I get from the world that I'm in to this new amazing world and even find out that it's there and that's what I think theoretical physics has failed to do it hasn't built a portal for most people to even understand what the issues are what are the objects what is the game how close are we to understanding what existence itself is which I think we're very very close and the square-root this was I was gonna say Before about durock

is like the most profound object in mathematics to me and the reason is is that when I ask you what is the square root of negative 1 that is a question that can be posed entirely within the familiar so the real the real numbers you're comfortable you know you owe money you have money so I need plus plus one and minus one square root understand what what times itself equals my number and when you say what's the square root of negative one there's No answer inside of the real line but there is inside of this

extension called the complex numbers and so it's like you're in flatland and you're trying to figure out is there anything beyond flatland so the great thing about the square root is it's a question you can ask in flatland that gets you out of flatland Jesus you confuse the [ __ ] out of me are you with this I understood that part of it yeah I Gotta stood that part the complex numbers thing got weird wind ok algebra so when I so when I'm taking like rotations of the coffee cup where my arm isn't involved right

I say okay is there a square root of that rotation like what does that even mean dude all right well now I put my arm into the system and my arm plus coffee cup gives you spinners like oh dude I did not even know that spinners were here I did not know that any object required 720 degrees of Rotation so the cup arm system we just exhibited it you don't need to learn Clifford algebras or all of this extra jazz that would get you to spinners mathematically but you need to figure out how do I

discover the wor the hidden world and think about this from the perspective of like ayahuasca somebody takes ayahuasca and they have no idea that their brain is capable of this alternate state or LSD or five Meo DMT all of these things are Like panic rooms in the mind where if you lived in a house for 20 years you think you know your house and then one day you pull an old musty book off the shelf and suddenly the bookshelf swings open you know and it's like holy crap there's like a second home inside of my

home well that's a lot of what psychedelics are like psychedelics are like square roots in that they're portals they can get you from the place that you know into a place that you Never imagined could exist do you think that the teaching of groups and a lot of these concepts in high school would facilitate a better understanding of it from the general public and adulthood in the yes hell yeah and it would what do you think is the resistance to this it's just too complex are not applicable to jobs you know is that the idea

behind it it's not something that you use in everyday life so that it's just too weird to think about the fact that There's cousins to the electron that are fat yeah it's worse than this bodybuilder cousins yeah what a blanket made out of strange quarks yeah one of your cousins is made out of laughs no I think it's much worse than this I think that first of all people are terrified of just how smart children are and the differences between children have to be buried so some children of graded abstraction mm-hmm and a lot of

the kids were great at abstraction or learning Disabled according to the teaching system now I personally think that most learning disabilities of a particular type are actually teaching disabilities people don't know how to teach the smartest kids and groups and things you're gonna lose some people because of the level of abstraction but you're going to get other people who have never been able to buy a base hit in mathematics suddenly start over performing so the problem is that when You teach this stuff it's very disruptive to notions of the hierarchy have you thought about what

are the causes of these different levels of perception is it education is it genetics is it environmental is some sort of chemical balance of the mind like what what do you think causes people to be more perceptive to some of these concepts it's a good question so the thing I just showed you with the planet Earth in a way that you've never Seen it before mm-hmm I know of only two people who've ever created that image well I'm one of them Dror Biran Atanas the other maybe there are many more but I've never heard it

or met them the number of people who first of all know what the hopf fibration is I would guess is if you really deeply know it is a few thousand people in the world so if none of those people are gifted at trying to visualize or none of them care and none of them program computers the number of People who could present that to the world is so small it's such a tiny priestly class that your odds of getting anyone figuring out how to make this understandable are very small so we're talking about a very

small priesthood most of whom are too busy trying to do new research to want to care to communicate many of whom are not gifted communicators many of us realize that we don't fully understand these things let me I can I can show you spinners Mathematically on a page but if you ask me in my darkest moments do I believe that man really knows what spinners are I don't think so this site there's all this stuff that to me looks like the monolith in 2001 it's just too freaky it comes out of nowhere and it's at

the core of reality like if you really want to blow your mind look at a tiny number tiny collection of these objects principle vibrations spinners exceptional lis groups this ei 248 Dimensional monster this what is that there's a 248 dimensional set of symmetries which seems to live only to be the symmetries of itself where everything else seems to live to symmetrize something else and no colonist we might have to spark that joint back up again let's do that there's this you know there's this thing called the tits Freud and fall magic square after this guy

named Jacques teeths and these Guys figured out how to generate these sets of symmetries of dimension 52 78 133 and 248 we don't know why they're there they're like the platypi and echidnas of the mathematical world they're just different they don't seem to relate to anything else that we that we know yet and that's what's so fascinating about them and these are discovered by people that are trying to figure out the nature of reality they're discovered by people are trying to find More of these bizarre equation who's who's discovering these and what's the impetus like

what what is well you ask very natural questions like you've probably seen you ever played Dungeons & Dragons as a kid luckily no okay oh well you were beating people up I was now beating stop it I've seen one video anyway you had these died right and you have like the cube die the tetrahedral die what is this chamber beyond space-time oh this is my 8 D surface Princess my arch-nemesis when I was telling the story last time their interest over October yeah Garrett Lisi Bobby took me into the jungle to meet this sort of

differential geometric warlord who lives in the north of Maui and the jungle yeah yeah we don't remember this I do now yeah you got off my story man see right yeah I'm sorry that's all right go for it here we are again if I go so whoa what is that well this is this is based on the eight Dimensional I'm almost certain this can be based on the eight dimensional root system so inside of the 248 dimensions there's an eight dimensional doughnut called a torus like an eight torus and it generates this pattern and that

pattern in some sense encodes the instructions for building the 248 dimensional object so somebody probably pushed an eight dimensional thing into two dimensions for your viewing pleasure and does this accurate like when you're Looking at this this image that we're seeing does that make sense to you I mean I could make I can related things that make sense to me if the idea is you know can I look at it the way I'd look at a barcode right say Oh tie it unsent it no no idea but but this is an accurate representation if you're

looking at it in two dimensions yeah so what what I'm what I'm trying to say is you don't even Know to worry about this pattern right because you've never heard that these things exist and this is like the closest that we come to you know genuine mysticism where we have these objects if there are aliens they know about I ate that because II ate or the aliens what ei tis the alien yeah I've been I mean we'll go to this later I don't want to interrupt your story again I don't have an idea so what

I'm trying to get at is this is the majesty and mystery of being A mathematic mathematician or a physicist these findings so if let's just say by dungeons dragons you're given these dice where the normal die is always a cube but the Platonic solids you can have an octahedron tetrahedron dodecahedron icosahedron all these things there's an analogue of those five platonic solids in the next dimension up which I think are called convex polytopes so each one of those objects has an analogue one dimension op but was Found out in the late teen 1800's that there's

a new platonic solid in dimension 4 called the 24 cell you want to bring up the 24 cell let's find an animated video of somebody rotating this thing so like this is something that Plato knew nothing about we don't really understand what it's doing there in four dimensions these are like communications from the cosmos so this is like when Jodie Foster was in the movie contact and they were getting them signals about How to make the time machine baby are the portal machine yeah but this is on Athena right this just stuff just doesn't come

with an instruction manual so part of it is you can prove that these things are there and you don't know why they're there and some of them touch everything and some of them have yet to touch almost anything and it's like a communication from pure design that there is so much beautiful structure and so much grace in the Universe that we're just what the [ __ ] is this doing here what is it right well what is everything right what is the whole thing no I mean look if you accept three-dimensional space let's say this

glass right if you accept this glass I understand that a circle can spin the glass the circle circles worth of symmetries tells me what to do to spend the last that's not that confusing right why is there something with the analog of a circle Where a circle I would call one dimensional because it's got one degree of freedom this thing is 248 dimensions and it doesn't seem to live to symmetrize it in the jargon we would say it doesn't have a defining representation of lower dimension so normally you have something of low dimension and you

say what are its symmetries and the symmetries are of higher dimension this thing seems like the first thing it wants to symmetrize Is itself so it's kind of self referential it's kind of onin istic so it's like a zero point of creation that's poetic language I would groove on that after 11:00 p.m. but I wouldn't call it that right now I would say it's like I was trying to pick somebody up hey zero point of creation right that's a sexy word yes actually but like if we're saying the Big Bang existed and that means some

point in the history of the universe it was this Really tiny thing and it decided for whatever reason something happened right and it became this enormous thing sure impossibly enormous thing yeah it had there had to be a point where it started right but what originally so what I would say is we can competently take that story back to a point mm-hmm and then we have to say we don't really believe that we have any insight beyond that point but people want to go there anyway we absolutely know that it was Tiny yeah small like

smaller than the head of a pin the whole thing I'm always uncomfortable saying settle but like you can you can say consensus you can say a lot of stuff about very early very small and it could that could turn out to be wrong you know possibly long ago 14 billion years ago in our minds as far as Huff for a guy like you mathematics you see it on number numbers of paper it all computes you see the numbers 14 billion Is a number that makes sense flush but conceptually yeah like for a dummy like me

14 billion is like if I really if I'm being honest do I really do you think I really have an accurate understanding what 14 billion and no but Steven Weinberg doesn't feel 14 billion either right but you know where 100 yds is so Hans you can feel that right I see a hundred yards I'm like that's too far to shoot a bow yeah like you got to get a little closer to be so you have some you Have some kind of an intuition pump well you know distance it's a rational distance that you see in

a daily basis right a hundred yards is a long distance a mile gets a little weird like is that a mile away how far is that oh it's six miles away wow I didn't think it was that far right there's there's weirdness in distance right but when you get to a hundred and forty million miles okay yeah I give up but yeah it's a fort I get the teal right Here yeah I get fatigued by that stuff so other people get energized like yeah man it's humbling right well the lemon is the concept of infinite

right like this is one of the things that Krauss said or maybe with Sean Carroll that said it's really not that we know that we can see 14 billion years ago right it's like but that's just as far back as we're capable of seeing right now and even if we did go further the light is actually moving Slower like you wouldn't be able to see it right right right so you have this thing about with the space-time metric which is sort of how things are feel like they're moving apart yeah just you know Einstein said

four degrees of freedom plus rulers and protractors equals space-time mm right so a space-time metric is a collection of rulers and protractors so I can do length and angle including length in the time direction And that generates a derivative operator which we talked about before which is rise over run real to a custom reference level the custom reference levels generate the Esther staircase that we did and that generates the curvature tensor which generates gravity so strangely with all of this kind of like woowoo stuff that we've been doing we just came to a much better

description of what theoretical physics actually looks like it's four degrees of Freedom plus rulers and protractors gives you derivative operators with custom reference levels the custom reference levels don't knit together that leads to an Escher staircase the degree of Usher nests is the curvature tensor the curvature generates the gravity which is what's keeping you and I in our chair I really appreciate the urine just that you're explaining this in a way that you hope that someone can understand what another problem another Physicist but you're explaining it very well that the problem is for someone like

me I lack the tools to put it there I don't have enough open slots for these concepts so it's like it's like if you were explaining to me complex arguments in French but I didn't speak French so you're saying you know Bonjour that means this and then you're explaining all these other words and then he's throwing it all together I'm like what and then it's cultural references then You have to deal with the fact that there's like some historical precedent to certain types of behavior that I don't take into consideration because these are French people

that have lived in this way okay but look well that's nothing compared to later ah let's drop some so you do this thing about like well for meathead like me well I definitely immediate help stop it juice and know I know me better than you know me that's true but you're also less Honest than you think on this particular topic it's part of your charm now look when we hang out we hang out usually in a comedy club or at somebody's house right we don't like say hey we're gonna take the afternoon off and we're

actually gonna learn theoretical physics right right so when I went to it I did stand up for the first time as I told you in Arizona I was there oh it was insane it was crazy yeah you trying to explain [ __ ] Quarks to people there's some real humor in that if you could boil it down yeah three quarks go into a nucleon yeah there's like a way to do I don't know there's a way to do it okay well who was the guy who did that some guy was doing how many he was

Bryan Callen was doing quantum jokes what was he saying do you remember forgot he just he had a bunch of words that he did very very quickly and it kind of hung together I was like wait what yeah that sounds like Bryan yeah he reads a lot but it's a clever boy when I when I had to do my 10 minutes of stand-up man is that Kraft it's it's deep it's hard because you have to it's not just like telling jokes at a party it's really you have to measure the way the audience's laugh comes

whether you're taking them along are you gonna divert all sorts of things that I never thought about before do you know how you feel when you talk about the Hopf thing yeah that it's a Part of everything it's one of the most important things and yet very few people know what it is maybe a thousand people understand it on the whole world what's odd is that number is probably identical to the number of legitimate professional stand-up comedians in the world as well when I say legitimate I mean someone who can craft a new hour every

two years it does Netflix specials the headlines all over the country it's small good travel all over the world and Do stand-up it's an insanely small number of humans and not only that my guess is that the number of people that you think are at the very top of that craft like when I really think about who really knows theoretical physics right it's time it's smaller than 50 yep yep guys that I would pay to see live or women that I'd pay to see live it's less than 50th less than 50 yeah and so part

of our problem is that all of the stuff that humanity is developed is often Resident in a tiny number of minds and I feel very vulnerable about that theoretical physics has been faking that it's in a healthy state for a long time we are so vulnerable on the doorstep of actually cracking this puzzle in my opinion well that's where our comparisons end because pretty much anybody could do stand-up if you put enough time to it if you're silly if you figure out the craft but what you guys are doing is not just really rare but

Also the the barrier for entry like the cost of entry is exceptionally high like you have to spend an Norden in amount of time studying and understanding this stuff just to get to a base level of what you've been able to explain you've been explained like some really difficult concepts to the layperson that must have taken you [ __ ] eons to learn and understand all your study of mathematics and of geometry and of all Their but I'm an impostor how so well I'm not a physicist right but you understand it maybe you don't practice

physics no no I understand it well no it's it's something more audacious than that which is that when you see you know at 10,000 hours only sign you know only those who've done their 10,000 hours can come in mm-hmm my middle finger goes up like I bet it's not 10,000 hours or if it is 10,000 hours I'm willing to get 80% of the Juice in that orange with like 10% of the effort well the 10,000 hours thing to me is it's cute but it doesn't factor in for phenom x' it doesn't there's there's a lot

of people that come in to anything whatever it is with some natural abilities that are pretty undeniable you know that's a weird that's a weird equation but like take something very simple like the harmonic yeah yeah most people don't know that that sweet blues sound on a harmonica Comes from not using it the way the manufacturer said which is called straight harp and using it instead the way african-americans figured it out which is it's much cooler to base it around a hole that nobody was expecting to draw rather than for blow and that gives you

a seventh chord that sounds like sweet blues music if you start something that all right [Music] that was you gotta move but what's the Traditional way of using it what would it sound like like that would be Carmen pouring it's far april music whirring it's [ __ ] white people need damn it white people at Carmen's alright but look not my point who knew when you get one of these things as a party favor as a kid there's not somebody who says hey don't do that thing we put your mouth over it also you know

but who knew that's the cool well there's yeah but like the idea is that There's something called tongue blocking there's something called cross harp and there's something called the one four five progression with a scale that no music teacher ever taught you in grade school and piano alright so there's four secrets and now suddenly the world opens up I mean and when I opened for Jordan Peterson Dave Rubin invited me and they said you know why don't you play a minute worth of harmonic at the Masonic theater so for twenty-five hundred People I became Dave

Reubens talking harmonica monkey and so I opened for Jordan Peters and I said you know rule number zero life is too short not to play the harmonica everyone should learn to play the harmonica or know why they're not doing it there's this great thing in the Caliphate song we'll win the game or no the reason why if you don't play the harmonica it's so nice it's so simple so few people do it there's so small number of secrets you Have to have a reason because I can feed myself I can get housing shelter I can

meet people anywhere in the world all I have to do is carry around a piece of plastic with some metal on it or you could be annoying like a lot of people like turn that [ __ ] guy off why is he playing that goddamn harmonica I want to hear that put it back in your pocket go to your next trip you already painted in these people's estimation that's attention [ __ ] what's worse a Harmonica or a guy brings a guitar and starts singing folk songs at a party on the animal house effect right

yeah beat him over the head with the guitar yeah he can shred he's gonna be fine it's great if you're looking to hear someone shred that's not okay all of these things are like options or financial options you can exercise them or you cannot exercise them you have to exercise but I mean there's an equal number of things that People would say that are like the harmonica like you should be able to do slam poetry but everyone should be able to do slam poetry if you can't do slam poetry I can feed myself I can

house I can I can do slam poetry I'll show up at a party and everyone wants to hear slam poetry is that true you just trying to beat me oh you're so adorable it's fascinating to me that's that harmonicas are this little tiny thing that people of faith like there's not other ones Right there's like other things are like these big old trumpet looking things yeah like it harmonic is this little thing yeah like how many little things do you blow well that's that are that powerful in terms of like the kind of music that

it makes exactly is that weird it is weird okay there's no like balls right it's always that it's always that little candy bar looking thing like there's nothing like no ball harmonica is there anything comparable in terms of Like musical instruments that is that little no that has that kind of sound no that's what it's optimized for but it's not weird like there's two buzz and there's other things that are similar and then you get to like trombones and trumpets everything kind of makes sense then you got this little [ __ ] things candy bar

thing right it's a mouth heart a mouth harp ooh what's that other one they buy my own knowing knowing knowing these two dues nose juice timey movies Is that what it's called morning morning morning now there's like a weird word for it there's a weird word for that thing all harp jaw harp maybe I'm thinking of a complete okay yeah yeah that's one yeah like there's that's another weird one you could play the spoons yes bones are good well how about that [ __ ] Australian one well they blow into that big teacher did yeah

that one's the most [ __ ] OHS guy's Trip and when they came up with that sound oh boy white like you're even that's like true Tuvan throat-singing thank you if you're on Haight Ashbury and there's a dude and he's got one of them Diggory dudes out and [ __ ] hat you're supposed to throw some money in there Satta respect this guy brought a goddamn digger he do to the corner well you know the coolest recent one it that is crazy give me some noise from this [ __ ] just give me a little

bit [Music] that is DMT music I know if your trip involves and somebody plays that you it'll take you to a new dimension so you've never accessed what's going to paint on for it to and everything oh that's like well on a tree actually it's quite interesting the scent they're scented I'm a church around the ayahuasca stuff has a lot of really interesting music to listen to it Straight it's a kind of mind blowing well there's also there's I don't know it's that one or the something do vegetal there's one of those similar Christian based

dimethyltryptamine ayahuasca type churches that they sing songs about Jesus they trip balls and sing songs about Jesus and what's really weird about DMT in particular and I guess you could say the same of mushrooms but mushrooms apparently when it's synthesizes it's real similar in Chemical content to what dimethyltryptamine is I'm gonna [ __ ] this up but I think it's N and dimethyltryptamine is dimethyltryptamine and then when it's synthesized by the bot when the body processes psilocybin I think it produces something called forfox floral oxy and and dimethyltryptamine i think it's real close I might

have [ __ ] that up but I think it's so close that it's like they're cousins Okay so there's something with about music in these things and one of the best ways to get out of a trip if you're if you're really tripping balls with mushrooms is to sing your way out of it really you can sing your way out of a bad trip you can actually control the trip with good music and one of the things it's really constant with DMT is these eco rows that the shaman will sing yeah and these eco rows

with the like thimbles and like a little bit of drum And these like really rhythmic singing it makes the hallucination dance in like a really obvious tangible way it moves around itself and it changes and guides the trip well that's what I've my hypothesis been that it's sort of some sort of yes that's one right there this is one I've personally experienced I've actually tripped listening to this song and it was like the geometric patterns these entities that seemed to be conscious they were like Moving around this is a guy this is the ayahuasca arrow

this is a shaman blowing tobacco this is part of the ritual they actually blow tobacco on you why you why you do that so this guy was just this little rattle and singing and sometimes there's actual singing not just whistling but no there's like in their language this beautiful soft rhythmic sort of song and the hallucinations dance to this to the sound to this music like they're supposed to dance to it Like they're part of like it's not just that you're having music on top of the psychedelic experience but that they merge emerge and the

psychedelic experience experience is a hundred percent effected by this so it's not just that there's chemicals that are interacting with your brain you're doing something to by responding to that music and then the music is doing something by enhancing the way your perception of this experience is and all that is Dancing together like they belong together it's fascinating [ __ ] yeah I mean my hypothesis has been that the music acts as a prosthesis to sort of lock you in because the experience is so powerful yeah I'm a maybe oh yeah it's always a little

bit weird you know try to imagine somebody says do you want a glass of scotch and a shaman to go with it you know someone at a bar that's like like we're gonna drink this we're gonna drink This with good intentions no one's gonna be grabbing anybody's dick no one's you know what's going inside no one's getting rude here there would be no wedgies right there'd be nothing nothing rude will be said you will you will think for a good solid five seconds before any hasty moves like let's let's let's understand that I love a

benefit ok great benefit from this in terms of our ability to be loose and to be silly and to enjoy each other's company but if If a demon comes out wearing this time you must address this demon personally on your own don't pull the demon out and throw it at the party right this is good stuff that's but that's what happens so you know we had drunks they thrown that deal Nietzsche that the thing where they figured out that if you put a worm in the mask all stuff that would be a great marketing device

north of the border mm-hmm because you just tell some story So now we we're gonna open that what that is it's what I think it's a marketing gimmick and then and then what we do is we we found our own tequila company and we only it's so exclusive that you can only buy it if you also hire a charlatan for the event make tons of money yeah and if what if the worm actually was psychedelic like what if there was a way you can genetically engineer a worm to be intensely psychedelic like the worm Literally

is made out of ayahuasca like we we why don't we put a toad in the mescal well don't they do weird [ __ ] like that where they will take tomatoes and they'll like use [ __ ] frog DNA in the tomato to make it live longer but there's some weird [ __ ] xxx working with cool stuff is the green fluorescent protein stuff you can have glow-in-the-dark rabbits and fur she makes these yes yes let's get some Glow-in-the-dark bunnies man think they can do that right there is something like that right some of you

have Jamie do you have glow-in-the-dark rabbits genetically modified potato mmm with frog genes to resist pathogens yeah what in the holy [ __ ] yeah so how weird is that GM potato uses frog gene to resist pathogens like that's that's real can we do going on can we do GFP rabbits so what were we on before this what we're Talking about we got two rabbits well had a point on tequila with so what if we engineer yeah that little worm right to be like 100% DMT honey does it DSD where you get down to that

worm and whoever chugs to the bottom and choose on that worm just yeah you immediately transform what is the [ __ ] am i watching these are these glowing rabbits yet that is so weird dude it's so we've got hoverboards and archery stuff we need rabbits we need glowing round here's a Problem man my kids have rabbits and they're [ __ ] those rabbits a little [ __ ] they don't they don't give a [ __ ] about each other we have two of them is so rude what happens there both males unfortunately here's what

happens when you get two male bunnies and you're putting them in a gigantic chicken coop they [ __ ] each other up it's bunny UFC everyday with these little [ __ ] all they do is kick each other's ass they Chase each other around this chicken shoot coop and when they get a hold of each other if they bite each other and they kick each other they [ __ ] each other up because they're both boys and they don't want a boy to be running [ __ ] as these two bunnies [ __ ] each

other out dude this is what they do bunnies are [ __ ] ruthless to each other these two little [ __ ] just chase each other all day long and beat the [ __ ] out of each other that's all They do why don't you do commentary I'm not gonna I'm not gonna encourage they're a series of color denominator one of them is actually missing so here's what happened we our chicken coop burnt down from the fire but the chicken survived one of them got scorched they all got [ __ ] PTSD it's crazy I

go near but they're alive alright so we had a maneuver them and moved up but one bunnies missing we found one bunny and One bunnies missing so I think it's better for the one bunny that survived and the one bunny that probably got jacked by an eagle or some [ __ ] like that that's a wrap son you had a good life you beat the [ __ ] out of your friend for a year and a half solid just kicking each other's ass it's [ __ ] horrible the ears are totally jacked like your ears

are shredded like like an old back to the death that you missed I don't think so because there's no body I Think I think a bunny got out and it probably ran away or who knows what the [ __ ] happened in coyote got it or some [ __ ] I mean there's a lot of hawks a lot of hawks in my neighborhood it's most likely a hawk yeah yeah but whatever just one little bunnies by himself now he's like the other [ __ ] they're both [ __ ] to each other it's not like

one good bunny they just find each other and like [ __ ] you imagine just that's all you do for years right So that's bunny life you get two male bunnies together and every day is [ __ ] you [ __ ] you [ __ ] you they run at each other and one one's always trying to get away one's always trying to eat the other one to jump on him start biting him and kicking him and the other one will do the same and they'll rotate you know that's very funny the the last two

Jews in Afghanistan both had to live in the synagogue that was all they had left and somebody somebody went yeah somebody Went to go visit the last to choose in Afghanistan and said like why aren't you guys friends and one of them says here I'll show you hey Shmuel want to have lunch we got the guy says drop dead he says you see what I'm working with and it's like the most Jewish conversation between the last stage is they can't get along so they're like the two rabbits that all the others went away well they're

probably really horny and lonely and confused I suppose yeah I mean what the [ __ ] there's only two of them they need to get to Israel stat like one of them died and then the last one is is just just my quest to be the last guy someone talked to him if it's possible for you to get to Jerusalem that's your people they'll just you have a party over there everything would be great Jewish food everyone speaking Hebrew everyone's United well like the last three Jews at Kerala was this young woman and two guys

Just let no neither one of you forget this thing oh I know it's rough man it's rough it's crazy to think this is a country with zero Jews like zero yeah yeah yeah nope the whole country like whoa whoa whoa that is kind of it is no melting pot here sir zero zero melting she was one ingredient whole pot it's all stew that's it you know that the Taliban actually really needed the Jewish community because they wanted to be able to say we've great relations With Afghanistan's Jewish community they just didn't say it was two

guys yeah two dudes that hate each other exactly very polarizing truth I don't know how we got into glowing bunnies I'm not getting any [ __ ] bunnies man all right if you get to guy and a girl together you got to fix the girl otherwise you gonna have a million bunnies and they're all gonna be kicking each other's asses that's all they do the bunny apocalypse well what's really [ __ ] up is reading about animals that that fight like right out of the womb how they kill their partner they call the gates Iblis

yeah put a pull-up obligate sibling side in blue in nazca boobies what are those what's been asking asking lines or these what are these boobies Jamie help me out here hang on there were boobies how do you spell that an AZ CA and then boobies the usual and I'm trying to remember what I was reading about where Obligates Iblis I when one animal comes out the other one tries to kill the other one almost immediately hello hyenas Oh hyenas hyenas there's been there's been evidence of hyenas attacking their sibling while it's in the amniotic sac

mmm and there's when they come out the bigger one or the stronger one of the whatever ones healthy will almost immediately start attacking its sibling and try to kill it pull up that if That's true I'm pretty sure that's true well unless he boobs went into this I went to this crazy rabbit hole about hyenas recently what a bizarre animal that is so this the false penis yeah the false penis is just one aspect yeah everything everything of 20% of the women died okay here goes obligate Sybil Sybil sighs when a sibling almost always ends

up being killed fugitive Sibley side means the side fellow faculty like it's a choice versus you've added Difficult if faculty to exit fabulet if Silva's simple side means a simple aside may or may not occur based on environmental conditions okay so it's sometimes will happen if there's none of resources wait so the idea is that they think the breeding cycle is discretized so either make it or you don't and so the danger of laying one egg and having it not work out is very oh this bird is [ __ ] his brother up and it

has to be in front of mom and dad because want to Prove that you're worthy well that is insane right so mommy look at he's beating it to death so this is because there's not enough food there's not enough food to do too so the first one that the second one is a spare and the first one proves proves that he's worthy by killing his sibling the spare in front of the parents and says yet you can invest in me I got just think Jesus Christ what kind of bird is this this is probably Nazca

or blue footed boobies is My guess that is insane that is insane it's hard to watch well this is what I said about biology biology cares about your feelings and the mom doesn't give a [ __ ] about her I don't know Mom mom wants look the mom's excited this one's dying [ __ ] up and the moms like mom's excited the older one knows what it's doing he's viable Jesus Christ nature is pretty brutal pretty brutal no it's it's bizarre Seeing this from oh god I don't want to see this thing's slowly die dude

it's bizarre seeing it from birds but I think it's even more ruthless the way Lions yeah hyenas yeah hyena is killing their siblings that almost uh I think they were saying it's pretty universal that is when the first one comes out they try to kill the second one well you know this thing about lion female lions getting excited by the murder of their children whoa so when the new and the New male takes over the pride mm-hmm his first order of business maybe let's not stop wasting resources on the previous daddy's offspring yeah so what

happens is same kind of thing the hyena gets out and immediately starts killing its sibling they're fighting to the death right out of the womb look at this [ __ ] mad battle as babies look it's got still got the sack on it and they're just trying to kill each other this is a particularly ruthless animal they were They were saying that 60% of hyenas died as they're trying to get out of the tube Wow what I didn't know that yeah 20% of women died one of the females rather die when they're giving birth that's

because of our easy brain to body ratio well it's also a no female hyenas oh that's giant dick sorry I thought you were talking about high rates of human natality female hyenas die 20% of the time when they're giving birth all right Because the baby doesn't come out right like they have this crazy you know they have a faux penis that is actually a vagina it's a it's an enormous huge engorge clitoris it's far bigger than the males they have to pull it back so the male can copulate with them but then when they give

birth it has to come out of that dick and they don't it doesn't always come out right so system yeah that because I might be wrong about the Numbers but it's some exorbitant number of babies died and a huge number of women women I keep seeing women female hyenas done all right yeah that's why [ __ ] oh but they're all so weird and that they're way bigger than the males and that's the because the males won't let the babies eat so that's one of the things they think like if something is they're scavengers the

males are trying to push out everything smaller so because that the females have To get in and go [ __ ] off the kid has to eat like even if it's their kid that's cool it's 60% suffocate on their way out yes 60% of them dying on the way out yeah and I think it's 20% of the females died during childbirth as well pretty sure that's what I read which is [ __ ] bananas I mean 60% though imagine 60% of all kids die on the way out and then the ones that don't die if

you got two of them one of them kills the other one the Rough neighborhood yeah oh it's a matriarchal society and they give birth through that fake penis yeah that's what I'm saying know what yeah what is the purpose of the fake penis with a fake penis is to dominate the men they get on top of the bend and they go listen [ __ ] so it's gonna be and they got a big old strap on they pegged their men and all male hyenas are cucks they all take it's crazy it's crazy that's where we're

heading as an inch in diameter Really oh Jesus ouch tight squeeze which that's that creates a high death rate for first-time mothers yeah high death residents say here how many would I think it's 20% I never seen the like the full human clitoris yes I've seen one have you not in the one oh the full the full clitoris no I know I've never seen it like a biological can you pull up the the internal clitoris internal clitoris I think it was only discovered is it not allowed to be shown Trying to quickly think about that

yeah well you could pull it up but just don't show the world just show us okay yeah if you I think if you put that on YouTube will be demonetized and possibly kicked off their net worth to Google that yourself yeah Google it you weirdo and and be careful of the wrath of it's not an enormous structure that I think we didn't fully understand I don't understand how we could have missed it but my understanding was we didn't fully Understand the internal clitoris we're right there on the left below it looks exactly like this sort

of space ships from War of the Worlds 1953 it's all that stuff on the outside the all you see on the outside that we're gonna get in trouble they get mad at us does that picture make you horny not makes you afraid doesn't it seems like an alien like it should shoot lasers hugger yeah like that's the Ridley Scott alien The face hugger Wow yeah whoo well just a look it's very weird that we've just come to accept what the shape of the body is my body is very bizarre I mean if we were all

shaped like stingrays and we saw a person we'd be like what in the holy [ __ ] is that thing yeah with its articulating fingers and it's moving its eyeballs rounds sniffing things with its nostrils like we just accept the fact that this shape is normal that it makes sense Well this is why cephalopods from last time when we're talking about cuttlefish yeah my I just learned something new which is that cephalopods are under consideration to be the next great model organism for biology so if you think about how weird it is that some branch

of the phylogenetic tree is so far distant from us that these mollusks have such advanced minds and you know their skin is the wonder of the world for sure yeah nobody knows quite how all of that Not only do they have these chromatophores to get the camouflage right but they also change the texture of their skin to mimic things like coral and all this stuff wouldn't it be cool if we made cell pods the next great model organism and then we started doing comparative like not only neuroanatomy but connectomics where we're trying to study how

their brains are organized because they're so far away they are probably the closest we Will ever get to meeting aliens I think I said that the last day yes here and I'm really excited if that goes forward well it really doesn't seem like anything else right you know whether it's a cuttlefish or whether it's an octopus like you like oh it's like kind of like a squid like yeah a little bit like a person's like a monkey yeah but like real different the Nautilus is yeah the craziest you know maybe a vine the cuttlefish is

the most interesting for Sure they're both the octopus is the collagen right but like a regenerate that's another part of it that's bizarre yeah well it would be fun to do a I would imagine that newts salamanders in the tetrapod category would be the best for us to study for regeneration I like how they regenerated up to a point like nature will say yeah you can grow an arm back kink or a head back sorry [ __ ] face that's a wrap yeah you Know you lose your head nature's like you gave up a big

piece it gave up the Queen it's over yeah games over see if you lose your tail like it's debatable do you grow your tail back we could do them all right lizards grow their tail back you know but they only grow like most of it they don't grow the whole thing but the newts and salamanders seem to have this very high Bridgend you can just get an arm Off over and over again there is you can't cut their head off yeah why do you wanna cut their head off I don't but I mean just saying

it's weird like you can't like chop them in half from the waist down they don't seal up and grow a new waist like that's it you can only get rid of the limbs yeah but you can get rid of the limbs like nature's evolved a strategy for dealing with predation just give him the arm Give him the arm take it what do you make of the fact that we had this successful head transplant in monkeys in like the early seventies and then we walked away from it probably good move otherwise chicks at Beverly Hills they'd

be getting new bodies just getting their head screwed on to new realities yeah getting new heads yeah people would figure out a way to transplant their brains if it wants to live forever now I just have an eight hundred year old Brain and so talk about any old motorcycle victim yeah that's what people are gonna start doing well then I guess it's we walked I thought it was kind of a weird move that when we succeeded that and then say okay too much can't handle it do you think that's what they did oh yeah is

it probably hard to get funding people thought you're playing God ah the guy who did it I think was maybe his name is Robert white and he Was a devout Christian so it was really it was good because you know there was a lot of this reverence for the human form and if a religious person is doing it we feel better than if somebody is like desecrating right right some atheist a scientist right doesn't know Paris I bet he's cutting heads off whoa dogs attaching them to monkeys yeah that's what's also like we think of

it as like okay it's one thing if you're trying out medicine on a monkey that might save Babies but it's another thing if you just say hey what happens if I cut this monkey's head off stick it on another monkey well there's all this crazy I don't know if you've ever seen this the Russians had this film introduced by JBS Haldane great English biologist was also a communist and therefore very Pro Soviet and there's this experiment was experiments in continuation of the brain after death and they hook up the head to An artificial circulatory system

and they sort of continued to have interactions where they swab the head and they get the eyelash movement and that the tongue comes out to lick and eat things it's quite interesting I would recommend it yeah Haldane has one of the greatest quotes not only is the universe queer than you suppose it's queerer than we can suppose what a great quote he was also the inordinate fondness of beetles guy inordinate Fondness of noodles that the Archbishop of Canterbury found himself I think seated across from Haldane and wanted to needle him because he was a communist

atheist and he said you know tell me well what what does your study of the biological would inform us about our Great Creator and how they had him back he said that he has an inordinate fondness for beetles because the beetles are so highly speciated and what was his reaction to that well I think was a Different eras like smoke burn but like to our to our way of thinking it's not that hard of a burn well we're really committed to the idea that all the stuff that we can do manipulating the planet right sending

rockets into space that that's more important than what an ant does what we're really committed to this that our significance although it's clearly if we were working together we believed in a sense of community it's more important to each other to us it is But to the whole thing is really more important says who I mean if people didn't exist yeah we were wiped off the planet all the other animals would be ok they really would be ok I mean we would gain and lose more predators and we wouldn't be controlling the population sure but

if all the ants went away mm-hmm that would be a wrap yeah there'd be a wrap we're done there's no more people this is a why huh decided that if we lost all Insects especially all ants right like it probably would collapse all the ecosystems that we need to sustain human life I have the feeling that those water bear tardigrades would be like suckers got rid of the ants we're the only ones left well we wouldn't be able to make it but a lot of [ __ ] would make it a lot of other stuff

that's true but you know the thing that I think maybe we'd make it anyway maybe they're wrong Yes don't understand humans freak us out yeah maybe didn't read that find out if that's true if all ants died just human beings would go extinct just Google that I think I think I read a paper proposing that and they were explaining the critical role that ants play in all these different ecosystems and how the biomass of ants worldwide is equal to or greater than the biomass of human beings okay I don't have any intuition or and then

yeah sounds reasonable now I'm Pretty sure that's true and so but our idea is that we're more important well we are i have cable yeah yeah that's not why i think we're more high or 4g deer 4g okay maybe that's more I have a 70 inch television and I I have an i watch yeah it must be more important the stupid [ __ ] ant was dirt house if I can just piss on your house while I go jogging yeah I'm a more more important thing than you yeah I don't know my inspiration half your

people by pissing On yeah yeah obviously nature does want to protect you you get your house in the dirt it's a whole mound okay I don't know why I want to get serious on you but the really interesting thing about humans is that we're the only species that understands what game were in and we can reject the game yes every other species is playing the game so you know you know my brother very well very surprising to me that my brother only wanted to have two kids and didn't want To like spend all this time

down at the sperm bank you know making donations I said you're an evolutionary theorist do you ever think it's kind of weird that you're not very playing this game very effectively and he you know shot me back this thing he said if you actually understand the game why would you want to continue to play it I thought that was like really interesting that somebody who sounds like his wife doesn't want any more kids Rationalizations I get it bro yeah Derrick I found says all all insects dying not just ants Oh insects and would take 50

years for people to disappear after that according to this the science Explorer article hmm find out the biomass of ants that's even trickier but I want to get rid of this anti human thing because I'm not anti I know neutral not biologically neutral if I just looked at it objectively yeah I Don't that's it you don't think so you think it's more significant because we're more significant to each other well there's no significance in the whole game if you just take a completely material it's like what do we care it's one Rock once back big

deal all right so the problem is if you accept that as an answer then you've kind of failed by just taking the nihilist way out yeah sure to me like you know that they have this annual question at edged org and Finally I got exhausted and want to ask another one so I'll finish this up quick here anything's I'm sorry no you want to take it ants do owl ants out with humans individual workers weigh an average between one to five milligrams according to the species when combined all ants in the world taken together weigh

about as much as all human beings that's interesting Wow yeah that's what I'm saying that's [ __ ] bananas whoo They are 15 to 20 percent of the terrestrial animal biomass and in tropical regions were answer especially abundant they monopolized 25 percent or more I man up to I have a buddy of mine Bryan Callen Bryan Callen used to he when he was in college he spent some time in the jungle he was thinking he was going to be a biologist he was gonna study insect who's gonna be in what is it an insectivore and

it was so they had to sleep in these elevated tents and They had to paint like some sort of like Turpin type chemical all over the posts because if they didn't the ants would crawl up the post and eat you and your sleep was literally climb in your ear and start eating you and tell everybody and you would die that way like people have died elephants have been eaten by ants and he said you can hear them walking in the jungle like in the night you hear you hear the footsteps of [ __ ] ants

Because there's so many of them if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time and there's a path of these [ __ ] moving your way and they send a signal that we got something here and they crawl up you they just all start crawling up you and there's so many of them you can't avoid them well because they're not really separate animals right there you social I mean opera has this weird property of this haplit diploid structure so that the Females are highly related to each other and so in the same way that

your cells aren't individual animals they all conspire to create you there is a sense in which in this world of bees and ants and and wasps and things Hymenoptera the real entity is the colony it's not the individual right so you know if I took a psychological approach to you and I just went cell by cell you know you're this collection of you know 10 or 50 trillion separate entities and that's what makes Ants so terrifying yeah is is that you know Kropotkin the great ant artist was sort of an amateur naturalist and he would

look to natural systems and say why can't humans cooperate like this and the point is we're not structured to cooperate in this you social fashion the way they cooperate is so uncanny when those leaf cutter ants designed those intricate cities with they have places where things ferment and we're where gases are released through holes in the Ground and it doesn't make any sense that this little tiny brain could figure out this enormous structure but somehow or another when combined and it's not a tiny brain right not just one one version of this but millions and

millions of these designs appear all over the world and they see if you can find that video of they filled a leaf cutter ant colony they filled the home with molten metal you know something like that what they call It yeah I think they flooded it with concrete they flooded concrete in all the holes and then they dug out everything around it so you could see the structure and then they explained what there's this is really like well-thought-out like they have portals and they have the this is how they get the food in and this

is where they take the leaves and they they let they let them rot and they turn to mulch and there's like a gas release distributed Loosely coupled system what makes it seem so amazing I mean it is utterly amazing but if you think about it as individuals making decisions that conspire to create these since these structures it's lesson it's that's more amazing than what it is which is it's a loosely coupled distributed system hmm you know so that's how a beehive will you know send out explorers and they'll report back and they'll do the dance

and the dance communicates the information And you've got all these coordinated activities in what other systems do you suppress the fertility of females because the relatedness is so high I mean this is gorgeous yeah this is the video we're talking about so this is it's really huge too and they have these looks like tunnel systems and then they lead to these big circular areas where they're really almost uniform in size and it's really strange way or similar in size they so they have these pathways That go to these like rooms these circular rooms and there's

just this incredible network of these tubes and circular rooms that they uncover and it's [ __ ] enormous when you look at how big this thing I mean if you had it look how big is that was that 80 feet across ninety feet across or something like that look it good so they're continuing to dig this up they're not even done in this video here but you see all the Pipes that extend to the left and to the right so developed some sort of complex civilization some weird bizarre network of these passageways and and and

rooms and they do it just like this everywhere so some pattern has emerged in their species that has set them up to act as this collective group and then operate in this similar fashion all over the world wherever they exist in that sort of with that kind of dirt they can Manipulate right that that's that alone is one of that is a massive mystery and how a little tiny thing with a brain that's almost imperceptibly small this is like tiny little head this little head how's he figure out that hole how do you figuring out

tunnels that he's not really insane not well right this is one trick they're working together okay so if you look at for example C elegans the nematode with a thousand cells for the entire body plan 300 of which are Neurons we have a complete map not only of the cell lineage diagram which is how this thing unfolds from a single fertilized egg but we also have a complete wiring diagram of its nervous system so this is something that locomotives around it eats as sex and it's only got 300 neurons each of those is an extremely

primitive machine and they send signals to each other and we still don't know that how the thing really works even though we've got the Entire thing mapped this was the great insight of sydney brenner that we would make the the worm the great model organism because we could actually map everything about it right and it is astounding to me how little we've learned we've learned a ton from it but I had thought that we would have gotten much farther and understanding the brain did you see this recent discovery of a 25-foot long sea worm that

apparently is not just one organism it's like many Organisms together combined no yeah I got to find yeah you got to see this [ __ ] thing it's insane and I think this is a very recent discovery at least one this large and these guys are swimming around with this thing it looks impossible it looks like they landed on another planet and they're experiencing this thing like this thing this whatever this is I'm pretty sure with it what I read I've read it really quickly as I was running Out the door that it exists large

8 mil 8 meter worm like sea creature stuns New Zealand divers so they're looking at this thing but I think there's many different organisms inside of it I don't think it's one individual organism yeah it's made up of hundreds of thousands of organisms I've never seen that yeah like what what is it like what does that mean is this is a weird tube for folks that are watching this or listening to this rather what we're looking at is these Divers that are just trippin balls here they're like what in the [ __ ] is this

and it looks like like an enormous tube like jellyfish type creature that's in the water it almost looks semi translucent right would you say and its dwarfing them it's enormous it's so big it's like the size in what moves and changes but it sometimes it's larger than a human waste or a human chest and other times it gets real Skinny but it's [ __ ] huge like a look at that what is that thing I'm stunned well the fact that it's like I don't understand what they're saying that it's made up of hundreds of thousands

of organisms like how is it made up of different stuff like what is it like have you ever heard of anything like this not like the Portuguese man-of-war I think is like five different organisms isn't it isn't it that collaborate in effect really the Portuguese Man Wars Not a flicker one thing look at the size that thing above the water that is [ __ ] crazy Pyrus ohm just whatever the ocean is like that like we're all we're trying to look into space like I wonder if there's aliens out there there here I know right

[ __ ] there like whether it's cuttlefish or octopus or this goddamn thing whoa pyro somme what the [ __ ] that thing looks like a geometric pattern that's a Nice one look at that one in the upper right hand corner Jamie what is that weird looking [ __ ] them what is that thing 60 foot long jet-powered animal oh god it's like a civilization it's like a ship of these things flying through the ocean what have you ever seen this before what the [ __ ] is that that is so weird-looking oh come on

man that looks like something from Avatar doesn't yeah it totally does right like that could something that comes off that Tree hopefully put it in the new movie yeah it's held called James Cameron look at this thing so this is what those things are but the other one is a very smooth or it's low resolution and we can't get a really good look at it but that's what it is it's this collective group of hundreds of thousands of organisms that combined together and they're getting jacked by that turtle all you [ __ ] what a

weird weird organism look at that Look at this picture if you stuck your arm in it I just dude how bizarre is it that there's a civilization of these things all combined but what they are is individuals that operate as a giant tube you never heard of this before now I'm so happy we found something you don't know about that was that's how [ __ ] weird one man but yeah the idea that the ocean is really an alien world yeah all right well the funniest part is when you when you hear these guys with

their Remote submersibles and they find some new life-form yeah yeah they're like take me down believe me those wait what is that you know they get really excited yeah because it it's the ability to meet aliens there are new things yeah I mean we we've kind of sorta mapped out the best you're more or less oh yeah there's like a few weird things you fought in the jungle weird bug where's not yet Vietnam has some surprises for a seer with fangs Oh you ever seen those oh the Sulawesi boars or they'll daddy here really vampire

deer I don't know I don't know about vampires it's the craziest looking thing ever it's deer with fangs like crocodile looking fangs that come hanging down like this this is some Jackalope thing oh god it's a weird little animal it's not a big deer either well do you know look at that thing vampire deer that's a real animal look at that how [ __ ] strange what was this What was in this coffee Jamie look at that thing look at the [ __ ] teeth on that thing it's probably something akin to their antlers they

use it to defend themselves ok that's not real it's not real because that's a mule deer see that one that you just pick that's that's some Photoshop [ __ ] what's interesting is apparently elk have these things called the people call them ivories now but they what they are is at one point in Time they had tusks yeah like a boar yeah like giant tusks that probably aided them and their fights and they eventually shrank and now they're just this weird sort of nubby thing I actually have some here I'll show it to you yeah

yeah they're in the after the podcast I'll show em to you but they they're this weird thing that's like not quite a tooth it's ivory it grows inside their head and at one point in time it was some kind of a weapon just like Their head is I mean the antlers are you know that's the largest but how do we describe this what was the quickest growing thing in the animal world is the the antlers of an elk okay look how [ __ ] huge they are they fall off every year and they grow back

every year and it's all just for fighting and they used to grow back tusks too are these to have to the answer the tusks were permanent but they used to just it's just for duking it out yeah it's crazy Weapon their sexual selection well you want to know really weird thing of the dung beetle um there's a conserved system whereby in some dung beetles the amount of weaponry you have is your antler is inversely proportional to the amount of copulatory apparatus you have where it counts well and so if you have really impressive weaponry you're

not able to do quite as much and that may be the engine of speciation is because the vagina and penis in that system is a Lock and key and so if something shrinks too much then you can't necessarily get get the job so if a greedy dung beetle with giant horns just [ __ ] everybody up his genes can't pass on maybe there's a certain round of cooperation that's needed in the dung beetle world yeah can't have an oppressor can of a Genghis Khan of the dung beetle world the patriarchy and the dung beetle world

look at the size of the antler on that guy yeah but girls make fun of them Probably the dung beetle world like the guy with the Lamborghini exactly like what's he doing over there with his giant it looks like elk antler's probably is a tiny little dick you want you want a guy who's just got little like that like that guy probably probably hung like a roach right he have a hunting question for you okay I started looking into this like primitive hunting thing I was positively predisposed towards hunting and I turned Myself off I

mean I don't hunt but I turned myself off of hunting by watching the effect of some of these people who are baiting and killing bears in ways that it just doesn't feel to me like hyper respectful right and I wondered if there's like a deeper layer where if I got even deeper into it I would understand it or am I actually correct that there is something weird about the effect of attracting some beautiful bear to a kind of easy place to kill it and Then just getting super excited about doing it in well your natural

instincts yeah there's a reason for them and you're most certainly correct it's it's a weird feeling the idea that you're going to trick this bear and thinking he's going there to eat and then you kill them yeah bear hunting is different than any other kind of hunting in the first of all there's a lot of emotional attachment to it because people love teddy bears and things along those lines But bears are this idea that they're beautiful they definitely are yeah they definitely they're also one of the more ruthless animals in the animal kingdom and they're

all cannibals all of them and the male's don't don't just go after the Cubs they eat them and they they go after them specifically to eat them and then when the males get chased off the female will eat her own Cubs and this is universal right they're also responsible For the death of at least 50% of undulate calves and fawns whether it's moose cows somebody don't have any of these issues so they also are really difficult to hunt and their populations thought by wildlife biologists are important to keep under control select by all so in

areas of extreme density like forests you will not kill them unless you bait you will not so if you one of two things has to happen either they have to use dogs which is what These two use a lot these two used to be California until the 1990s they outlawed hound hunting and then the outlawed baiting around the same time what they essentially did in Northern California is they outlawed bear hunting but they didn't you can still hunt bears but it's extremely difficult almost impossible with a bow or very very unlikely like your rate of

success would be extremely low if you want to control populations if you like to eat moose and deer or you Want to have them keep healthy populations and you don't want the bear encroaching on these rural homes and these areas you have to control their populations and there's very few other ways to control their populations other than baiting them so assume that I was positively predisposed to hunting I do think that they're beautiful creatures I think they're emotional creatures but I understand yeah they're all they're all beautiful okay so you know I think I Mean

I think the frogs are beautiful they're fascinating it's the effect that frickin yeah it should it's it's a weird form of trickery and we don't think it's sporting right but the idea is that if you really want to control their populations you have to accept that this is a necessary evil so soon that I grasp that mm-hmm it's still at the level the the thing that surprised me was that the effect wasn't the expected effect of the hunter With reverence in some sense sufficient reverence for the kill yeah that's what flipped me up well there's

people get excited and they get happy that they're successful because hunting is difficult and if you take that at the context if you take that out of context and people get happy especially when they get happy they're getting happy around people that have no problem with hunting see one of the problems with respect is that it's Assumed that you only have that respect if you don't have happiness that goes along with that so I understand that that there is some amount of sadness some amount of happiness is a weird like I have healing of loss

it's a there's a lot of weird stuff that goes I'm surprised and the reason I'm asking you is is that I had expected that I would have the difficulty bears equals teddy bears and I get past that I keep going around this whole thing and then when I Finally got to the end it was just that there wasn't the right balance between sadness ecstatic elation it's hard it's hard to it's hard if you're not there experiencing it it's it's hard if you're not involved in this hunt for many many days and it gets very difficult

you put and you don't know if it's ever gonna happen but the bear hunting in particular especially over bait is way more problematic psychologically don't know I think there's a really good Argument and I support this argument that you must keep bear populations in control if you want people and and all those other animals to live in harmony got it because if you don't there's nothing else that keeps their populations in control by the other than bigger bears grizzly bears and grizzly bears and they get out of hand are way scarier that's a real it's

a real good dense real giant problem in terms of our our anthropomorphism of These animals you know attaching these human attributes and these human thoughts and and thinking of them as our friends in the forest and then what they actually are to people that live out there not my guess is that if I went hunting with you I would expect to see you elated after three days of frustration yes on a on a good hunt I expect that you would use the kill responsibly that you would forgo certain kinds of kills I don't Have any

of those issues I think I think that where the issue is is that I wouldn't expect an unbalanced relation hmm yeah I understand what you're saying and especially an unbalanced elation when you're hunting over bait right for an animal that is not necessarily thought of in our culture as being an animal that you eat which is bear and a lot of times people think that you don't eat them black bears in particular actually they taste very good and people Do eat them when you deal with people like I have friends my friend John and Jenn

rivet who live in Alberta and there they are hunting guides it's a real necessity up there to hunt bears okay because there is nothing else that's keeping their populations in check and if you ever go up there you see an extraordinary amount of bears like you could see 19 20 bears in a day well they're everywhere okay and there's a high density of them and they just Decimate the deer population they decimate the moose population and there's some of them that learn that they can get into garbage cans they break into people's cars and destroy

them they've killed a few people but it's pretty rare most of time they realize that people are dangerous and they stay the [ __ ] away but it's not what what I appreciate is spot and stalking traditional prey animals that's what I like to do I like to spot and Stalk deer and elk because I feel like first of all they're the most delicious they make whether it makes sense or not they make the most sense to me in terms of like a prey animal they're the ones that I I covet the most what I

want to do is I want to go and get older mature animals that are undulates right whether it's deer or an elk an animal that spread its genetics that is already it's you know seven eight years old nine years old as animal that doesn't have Much time left if you get it now you're probably getting it within a year of its death whether it's by natural causes wolves cold starvation you're you're doing it probably the most humane you're giving it probably the most humane death it's reasonably possible for this thing unless it falls off a

cliff and even then it's the it might survive that for a little while you when you're shooting an animal with an arrow it's dead in seconds right you Know you hit it in the heart and they shot an elk this year it literally walked for yards and tipped over it just step step step boom I mean I am very impressed with the skill of some of these yeah I guess this is the print primitive hunting movement with Spears and see that's I think you should I think you should be really careful about anything that you

do that's not that accurate that's that's an issue yeah it's a giant issue elbows are extremely Accurate right and there's guys that can shoot a paper plate at 120 yards every single time they could shoot a little plate like that they will they'll bet their life they can drop an arrow into that at 120 yards every single time you can get good at that you can get if you have good technique and reasonable control of your emotions and your anxiety sure in the heart in the heat of the moment you don't ever shoot anything in

a hundred twenty yards though you're Shooting at things 30 yards 40 yards and the degree of success is very high with skilled hunters if you they're ethical and they're shy their shot decisions is that primitive stuff is like why why you throwing spears like woody what are you doing you trying to prove that you're better than people that use a bow and arrow like this is not an accurate or effective thing I mean it kind of is but you have to be like 5 yards 10 yards like what you got to be 15 yards max

Even there I think part of the thrill of it for them is putting themselves in danger there's a little bit of that if you shooting oh you're going after a bear yeah like I've seen some of these things filmed where the person looks like you know they're up in there I don't know what to call it there little tree stand tree stand and that doesn't look like they're putting a lot of risk but some of these people are clearly getting off on this Is the primal hunt right and this is they're going backwards into something

where the animal could surprise them and what I what I wanted to do is I wanted to reacquaint myself with you know now that I can I can watch somebody actually in that moment try to figure out what my ethics around hunting were and I thought that I had prepared myself and I just I thought when I was when I saw you find out where Joe is because I have no question knowing your Ethics and how you think that you would have a very subtle perspective on all these different kinds of kills which sorts of

animals yeah if you get two Spears yeah you're in a weird place like like you say oh I only spear wild pigs we're trying to get rid of them anyway okay well that's we're in a weird place we're in a weird place because ethically I think you have two choices three choices your three choices are rifle which is number one ethically Realistically because if you shoot something with a rifle you you can be really accurate like out to a hundred yards a hundred percent of the time like unless it's crazy windy out or there's some

weird conditions altitude can affect ballistics but not that much out to one hundred yards you're [ __ ] deadly if you have a really good controlled squid squeezing the trigger you're not jerking everything not panicking then bow is second you know Bow it requires way more practice way way more fine-tuning of your motor skills but it's still possible okay then you have crossbow which is even more effective than a bow faster more feet per second faster feet per second so that it travels at a flatline because it's going quicker before it drops they all drop

the same speed right bullets and arrows all drop at the same speed they just don't get there at the same speed okay so the same amount of time Like if I'm shooting something at a hundred yards it with a bow I am aiming with with a site that is calculating for the fact that the arrow is going to drop significantly in the time that it takes if it's going 280 feet per second it's like a normal speed for a good bow with a good heavy arrow that's 280 feet per second that goes a hundred yards

okay a bullet is going to go a hundred yards far quicker but in the same amount of time it takes That arrow to get to that target the bullet is gonna drop the same amount as the arrow yeah and that's what most people don't understand mm-hmm so a crossbow is more ethical because it's more accurate it's does have fewer moving parts you could actually sit it on a rest and just squeeze the trigger easier to manipulate and the arrow is traveling faster so it's called a bolt traveling faster so it'll drop less after that [

__ ] get Squirrely okay after that it's like you're throwing spears okay you got what do you got an atlatl okay all right well you can kill things with it and people have done it but it gets to how accurate are you and it what is what's your ethical brain right like an ethical range for a really good hunter with a bow and arrow is probably 80 yards I mean maybe it's a moose 90 yards something big but with a spear like what do you got you got ten yards so you know Why that's the

question that was are you doing it for meat are you doing it because is this your Mount Everest you want to kill a pig with a spear and are you saying that a pig is not worth as much so you should be able to kill it with a spear because these are all weird these are weird that weird decisions and people make those with bears they make those decisions with black bears like people that live where they consider them nuisances right age they kill them I mean they used to be used to allow them to

shoot you still allow to hunt used to be allowed to hunt black bears with a spear in Alberta until a big scandal a couple years ago where a guy filmed himself doing that he shot a bear he killed a bear rather with a spear and was Hootin Hollerin and and people got a hold of video and thought it's disgusting and protested it and people from under armour dropped his wife from there you know they had this sort of Sponsorship deal with them and it ignited it caused a rift in the hunting community some people think

you should be able to hunt with a rock yeah all right what you hunt with you should be a hunt with anything and other people like hmm okay but what are we doing are we just going out to get meat or are we putting on a macho performance of our ability this is exactly what I wanted to get averages if you know that A population has to be controlled and you want the meet yeah then it makes sense to me that you have to open yourself up to some of the pleasure of the kill that

makes some sense but what I saw just like flipped me out because it wasn't it was above and beyond yeah I saw spear yeah and other things yeah and you know I was impressed by the some of the skill I'm impressed by some of the bravery but if I understand but like why right right yeah I'm doing it too Population control you're doing it for them this was a surprise to me yeah I got I got kind of sickened by it that's not surprising it's not surprising you know I mean I think if you if

you were there you'd probably be even more conflicted because you're actually were there in the presence of the thing dying yeah you know watching a bear die on a video is one thing but being there alive when they die is a completely different thing It's it's it's a very complicated thing because we have these deep set emotional connections to certain animals that my friend Steve Rinella who's going to be actually on tomorrow he calls them charismatic megafauna yeah that we have this different view of certain animals bears in particular but if you use the animal

respectfully respectfully and you kill it ethically and you do I don't have any problem with hunting bears and in fact I think it's actually an esse it Really is a necessary task it's something that even if you don't like to hunt bears if you're living in a place like Alberta you probably should hunt bears because you should do your part there's a lot of them out there and you know one of the things that becomes an interesting relationship is a relationship between the moose hunters and the deer hunters and the bear hunters that they have

kind of if those smart ones have come to an understanding That even if I don't hunt bear I need those people out there doing it okay but it's how do you do it and why are you doing it I think you I've seen animals die very quickly with a bow and arrow they die very quickly I've never seen an animal die with a spear but don't think it's necessary but I don't want to be the person that you you can't do it if you have an ethical range of five yards and you only hunt bear

with a spear at five yards and You kill it immediately you hit it and kill it you're right then you're right yeah it's not based on the method it's based on what what are the ethical parameters around the can also I would kind of be a hypocrite because even though I can ethically kill something at forty yards or just figure out what the number is depending on the size of the animal and even though I can do that I could do it way easier with a rifle so why am i using a bow and arrow

why do I Want to make it more difficult why am I making it more challenging why am i requiring myself to practice but because questions you're very self aware it's a very important question to ask because if I was just doing it just for the meat I would probably lose a rifle right yeah yeah I think that that that that part of it has to do with the primal association with the kill and then the key question is how do you want to indulge that what is the set and setting blah blah blah so That

was that that was the thing that I found shocking is that I had thought you know I understood something about the need to control population mm-hmm it's the effect which really killed me yeah well again we're talking about bears you know as such as bears other animals as well yeah yeah I mean I saw I don't want to focus more on necessarily but it's just a question I had to ask you because I sort of I was very surprised by my own reaction well a lot of people are taking Issue my good friend Ben O'Brien

who's a brilliant writer who's actually also a hunter is advocating that people stop taking what he calls grip and grins where the grip and grin is like say if you shot a beautiful deer you're holding the deer up by the antlers and you're smiling yeah and he's advocating that those photos are problematic because people who don't hunt look at it like you're some bloodthirsty [ __ ] that's super Happy that something died and that's not even though that's not how the people feel when they're taking those photos what there are is happy that's something which

is very difficult which you know especially using a bow most people go home empty-handed it's it requires too much fitness physical fitness because you're going up and down mountains it requires too much accuracy and training and technique and archery most people [ __ ] it up and then There's dealing with anxiety most people [ __ ] it up but after it's all over there's this great feeling of elation right you did it I can't believe it came together Wow because it was probably not going to come together and people get happy these are people again

that already accept hunting now if you take someone who is an animal rights activist or someone who deeply appreciates animals and then you show them that photo they have a completely different Association with what that photo means what that photo means is here's an [ __ ] who's a trophy hunter let me get my thing I don't know any species that celebrates a kill for food with Glee chops do oh sorry sorry you're right yeah when they kill a monkey they get pretty happy well then they do it socially and then they they share it

you know throughout truism they scream in each other yeah AAA so that's chimps are my least favorite Species almost of all they're wholesome terrified the worst yeah they're terrifying little [ __ ] so weird where do you think we are on the political front we haven't even touched that um I think it's right the same way as bowhunting vs. Spears rifles it's all theirs this world's messy you know all these things are messy do you see a way in which this political epoch comes to an end the only hope that I have is through reasonable

dialog becoming an Accepted and appreciated thing a celebrated thing and that this is possible that people can realize there's some stupidity to this team mentality that we have right this right versus left which is almost all a good percentage of it these assumed identities right these are these predetermined patterns that get adopted in order to as we first started talking about this in order to establish yourself as someone who's in a group Right you get accepted by this group and you see it left and right I mean I don't want to name any names but

there's a bunch of people that do it blatantly you see them and I've even seen them switch teams and you see them switch teams and I don't buy their rationals when it comes to ideology but I think is what they're doing is they're switching teams because they realize there's an in on this team right and they can just say this is the problem with the team I used To be on those [ __ ] losers and they're really Benedict Arnold right and like they probably have as much of an affinity to the ideas of one

side as it do the other side they just go all in on one side to get acceptance from the group right yeah there's no way people change their opinion that much over two years or something like that or you know it's like they just decide this group makes more sense now and I've been attacked by People on the left so I'm gonna go to the right or vice versa and usually what it is is meaning when even when they say they've been attacked like oh you [ __ ] baby there's 300 million people just in

this country alone if you put something out there publicly and a thousand people attack you don't act like you're being persecuted okay you have an idea you've you've you've launched that idea out into the zeitgeist and people took a big [ __ ] on It you know whether it's people on the right or people on the left you got to be able to argue your point one way or the other and not just immediately jump ship on someone who shares ideas with you decides that your idea sucks and maybe they're wrong and maybe you're right

but you got to argue that through but this idea of these partisan patterns that people just seem to automatically fall into they're so detrimental to dialog they're so detrimental to us Under really understanding each other and really having some sort of a sense of community right this is a giant community of 300 million people that's supposed to be yeah and this idea that it's this group is trying to [ __ ] it up and they're trying to turn us all Muslims and this one wants everybody to be gay and this one wants everybody to [

__ ] have free food on this and this is nonsense this is nonsense we need better understanding And what and you know the word better education gets tossed around a lot but it also means better social understanding right better social education like an appreciation of who we are and why we think the way we think and calling out weasel's on both sides of the pattern like calling out weasels on the right that are pandering that are just trying to like get up you know the repeating a lot of these like accepted beliefs cuz they know

that they can hit This frequency and a lot of people sing along or the same thing that our people are doing on the left they're doing it on both sides I think most reasonable people have a collection of ideas that they share from both the right and the left and most reasonable people are reasonably compassionate and I think that's one of the things that we're missing some a reasonable sense of not just ethics but an appreciation for each other for all of us as a group and This that I think if we can celebrate reasonable

conversations and celebrate an understanding of other people's perspectives right like be able to just look at how you're looking at things and have empathy okay let me see where you're coming from with this okay let me put myself in your shoes okay instead of just immediately like [ __ ] you you cook and [ __ ] you you this and instead of thinking about it that way if we just just tried to just everybody exercise a Little bit more so we're a little bit more calm right and come at this from a rational place and

try to like realize like the entire exclusion I've been experimenting with a very dangerous idea which is I keep hearing about chief inclusion officers and you know I thought about I think for me from Ecclesiastes you know to every season there's a purpose under heaven so if there's inclusion there also has to be exclusion right and like deep Platforming or unplanned somebody is an act of exclusion and very often it's very interesting that the people who are for inclusion are very focused on the need for deep platforming which is an act of exclusion so should

we have chief exclusion officers that both monitor who is being excluded including you know somebody like James d'amour at Google like is it ethical to exclude him or are there certain voices that need to not be at some tables in order for something to Make progress because if you always have the voice that's the most extreme that doesn't accept the game then it's very hard to move forward within the game if you're constantly being reminded you know so we have we have a series of situations in which it seems like some perspective that very few

people hold terrorizes majorities or you know group of people who sort of can more or less get along with each other and keeps pushing us into this very Divided landscape and I was just curious you know in terms of our group of people that we talk and hang out with in common where you see the high leverage is that we've just finished the midterm we've got this 2020 election it looks to me like Hillary is kind of AI and whether she wants to get back in the game this Trump thing has completely you know it's

like it's like the dress is it black and blue or white and gold for like could be eight years right yeah and I just have you thought about how this ends well I would never be so presumptuous to think that I have any idea how this ends okay I have I've proposed various scenarios to myself and I don't like any of them I don't like where it's going because I would I worry about and this is also again hypocritical that because I think you probably should burn down and be rebuilt from the ruins we're not

we get such a clear acting gonna be clean I Know no this isn't very clean either though honestly that guy one it's not clean if this is he loves Putin you know this is ain't clean you know the whole thing is weird it's the the bankers having the amount of influence they have the fact that there's two lobbyists what is it what's the number like two lobbyists to every member of Congress or two lobbyists to every senator for the pharmaceutical industry by the way the Number of people that have influence over the way our laws

are shaped it's it's so [ __ ] bananas right now right so so off the rails is that what it is twelve what I didn't type in specifically but there's a twenty-three registered lobbyists for every member no I think from the pharmaceutical industry they were saying not twenty just I think it's two for every member of Congress in the pharmaceutical industry yeah the question you started out with Like D platforming people I think we're impatient and I think we're we're we really want to make sure that this vetting of ideas happens quickly because we see

the answer we see the solution we see that this is incorrect and we see these people that think the world is flat or idiots and we think that these people that this think this and think that we think they're all wrong and so we want to stop them from talking but that doesn't work it just works for now It it oftentimes feeds those ideas and it also it it you have to question like why are you so sure why are you so sure that you are correct that you want what you don't just want your

side to be heard exclusively you want to you want to silence these are the other people's ability to participate in this argument even if they're totally wrong I think that's dangerous because I think that the way to fight off ideas that aren't good is to Introduce ideas that are good and you're gonna you're gonna have a bunch of people that agree with the ideas that are bad but I think that that's a part of this whole figuring things out like you need to have bad ideas floating around there to appreciate good idea so all the

ideas are good like what do we do get it out against right it's not bad to have these bad ideas broadcast what's bad to not have someone say hey these are bad ideas okay but you need to see The pitfalls of racism we need to see the pitfalls of crime we need to see the pitfalls of corruption we need to see it in action all right it's like stock markets Wendling i think in a lot of ways it's important we need to understand that this is a pattern that people fall into continually over and over

again when they have control over the money when they have control over that we then move the numbers what do I do this how about if I tell you that This is gonna go down and then you invest some money and I put some money in your bank and we work together let's make some money cuz what people do right if they just [ __ ] do it over and over and over again should you punish them yes absolutely but I think it's kind of important to see some [ __ ] up behavior just because

we're not done we're still in some sort of emotional and psychological and even physical evolution we're in the middle Of this thing and I think that bad ideas facilitate comprehension like these really shitty ideas and a lot of people have what they do is they facilitate a comprehension of why we think dumb [ __ ] and sometimes you don't know why people think dumb [ __ ] until you see someone over and over again that thinks dumb [ __ ] and you get to see that whether it's alex jones or whether it's fill in the

blank okay what guy do you want D-plan but I don't okay so here's my thing I want a lot of our leading experts D platformed okay well you're going deep just spray-paint the [ __ ] big a on Tucker Carlson's driveway all right yeah well well if I think about who the great danger is is it alex jones you know who veers towards tinfoil hat land with some frequency or is it the people who were selling you know weapons of mass destruction in iraq as a response to 9/11 or you know the people Let's assume

that you're a reasonable person on immigration you neither think that borders should be open or closed then you start hearing professors say you know the great thing about immigration is is that it has absolutely no costs and all of them are better than all of our people because you know they're highly trained they're highly motivated they're young you're thinking like okay what kind of thing has all benefits and no costs you ready you're Not even entering into a rational description right and now we're hearing like all these trade deals that got negotiated yeah that kind

of wasn't true all those things that we were telling you that if you if you question these things you were a backward protectionist and you were just you were stuck in the old world and you couldn't embrace the new yeah that was all [ __ ] what I think is we have a a crisis and expertise institutional expertise is at An all-time low nobody really trusts any of our institutions to be an authoritative source of ground truth it's not to say that everything that the institutions say is wrong or everything the experts say is wrong

far from it it's just that there are almost no experts or institutions that aren't willing to distort facts in order to pursue institutional polls that that's a giant issue right right and so I don't Actually want to deep platform these people but I do have the very strong sense you know when Elon came on your show and Peter teal my friend and boss came on Dave Rubens show I thought that was quite a moment where this alternate network of distribution which is not under centralized control started to be seen as comparably powerful and important and

I think some of the noises that Tucker Carlson just made to Dave Rubin about whoa hey you're doing this out of your garage and you have the freedom to do anything I'm beholden to the structure in which I live yeah we're at a very interesting place with respect to what is this thing this alternate distribution network for ideas that's unpolished by the institutions and you know I think I've been convinced in the last two days that I need this is advice that I got from you at the beginning he said you need to start a

podcast I think I need to start a podcast I think you need to start a podcast just keep going on on about the hop thing until people figured it out but we have to we have to return to some kind of stable sanity that I'm positive that the institutions can't return us to because the the institutional interests really have to do with the fact that certain kinds of growth on which they're predicated their existence is predicated have evaporated so all of these institutions are Extremely vulnerable to corruption at the moment and the real revolution is

I'm seeing it is that high agency individuals are out competing traditional institutional structures in terms of mind share and some of those high agency individuals are irresponsible you know they're like Milo types that are kind of trying to light things up and some of them are extremely responsible and some of them you know we'll do a few interval things but will Self-correct and this new world that is being born is a huge check on the institutions but it's still largely separate like am i right that you don't do a lot of network television I don't

do anything yeah anymore but I used to I mean that's how I became famous in the first place right you know but yeah I don't do it anymore but it's also because there's nothing fun out there like this like there's no Place for this right other than this this is the only place you could do this but isn't it interesting to you that we still have not like Jordan had to be dealt with by the mainstream because the book was too big his effect was too large I think his effect on the Internet is bigger

than the book I think the the YouTube videos and the debates that he has the one that I was telling you the recent one the interview with GQ interesting it's Really good the woman is very smart but she gets trounced and it's because he's been in the trenches with this stuff for a long time I mean he he's he's fighting a very strange fight of dialogue and of interpretation and of discussion and and the freedom of intellectual sovereignty you know there's a lot of people that want you to think a very certain way and use

certain words and say certain things and it doesn't matter whether or not you are in fact racist or sexist or Homophobic or whatever there's a weird Battle of control going on that it's a heart of it as much as it is a battle of inclusion and diversity and strengthening our overall progressive mindset there's a little bit of that too but there's also an undeniable game that's being played and people want to win their scores they're being scored there's points on the board the throwing in new agents there's teams going at it and whenever Jordan goes

on one of these Conversations these video interviews and there's a feminist and Jordan Peterson like there's a [ __ ] game going on we're watching a soccer match we're watching a wrestling match this is jiu-jitsu they're playing intellectual jiu-jitsu and Jordans really good at tapping people he's really good at and they're getting pissed they keep sending in new chicks they sending that Kathy Newman lady it's like so what you're saying is that didn't work either she's Got devastated she got rocked and this is what's happening over and over and over again because whether you appreciate

what he's saying or not he has some facts that are undeniable he has some positions that are based on a rich understanding of history and of Marxism and of communism and of a lot of the problems with people with compelled thoughts if you're compelling people to behave a certain way compelling people to talk a certain way And we're not talking about you know compelling people to not commit crimes or violence we're talking about weird things like compelled pronouns and so if I take if I take your analogy because you brought it up that he's like

doing jujitsu yes so in some previous era and I thought your description of the early days of MMA was fascinating that we just didn't know what fighting was mm-hmm so we didn't know who would win or what systems worked and if you think about The mainstream media is like a Aikido yes some system that maybe has some valve elyda T in some very rarefied context and it comes into general-purpose fighting systems and it's it's dismantled very quickly so now we have this weird situation that we've got this new world of kind of rule Laden anything-goes

discussions more or less and the mainstream world doesn't want like the Aikido world doesn't want to acknowledge that this weird UFC type Thing is happening mm-hmm how long does that go on it goes on for as long as it takes this is similar do I think that what's happening intellectually and this is one of the reasons why I don't think you should stop people from expressing these bad ideas there's one thing for stopping people to say hey we need to kill black people stopping people said we need to kill white people we need to kill

fill in the blank whatever the group is yeah that's that's different You're you're clearly stepping outside of the realm of civilization and into war and violence and we could all collectively decide and we should all collectively decide we should have ethics together like whether it's right or left or in the middle we should all decide hey you can't do that because what you're doing is you're you're calling for violence against someone who's not committing any vine can I pause you right there because I Think there's a really interesting point okay let's assume that we know

that that behavior needs to be down regulated in some way okay you can try to silence the person where we just physically duct-taped them so they can't say anything right you know we put them in jail and we won't don't give them access to the media etc etc or we can shame them or we can kind of take them aside at what layer of this sort of communication Stack it's a very good question we should because I think one of the things that we haven't done is to positively say we agree with you that the

speech is offensive and it is potentially dangerous but we think it should be down regulated differently than the deep platforming option well the deep platforming option the real issue is there's only a few different avenues for these people to express themselves publicly okay right And the the argument that's really strange is should these be regulated like a utility or should they be thought of as private businesses get to decide what's on their their channel essentially like it's almost like a a private NBC that everyone can broadcast what if it's none of the above what if

the problem is we're trying to pretend is it like a dinner party is that the public square is it the utility and it's none of these things I think These ideas what I was discussing that like there's there's a reason why good ideas and bad ideas should go to war is the same reason why even though I kind of knew that most kung-fu was [ __ ] before the UFC I want those guys to get in there and try oh you got some death touch hey come on in I want to only introduce you to

a guy you know this is his name's Cain Velasquez and you're gonna try your death touch and he's just gonna arrest with you the ground beat Your [ __ ] brains in okay right but that's not gonna happen cuz you know death touch good luck and you let them Duke it out and that is the that's what the other ideas but it is a little no no no but but when you deep platform people that's when it's not out I agree with you but what I'm trying to get at is that it is a state

I hadn't really thought about it the extent to which Jordan is the only one of us that they've really gone after Like this well he's first of all he became famous from this right this is the the battle was wow he emerged he merged from this battle over the use of compelled pronouns for various genders like the very similar to breath 78 different genders similar but not okay okay the difference is Brett's position he comes from a different place the way they were going at him was so much more unreasonable they were saying right away

that what he has to do is leave work Because he's white they were basically saying a racist thing and everyone universally acknowledges his racist except for these super lefties who thought that it made sense because in their mind every white person is somehow or another guilty of at least at the very least using your privilege to advance the world at the into the negative impact of people of color and people of other ethnicities so they decided that they are going to have a Day of exclusion and instead of this day of absence having black people

and people of color stay home they were gonna kick white people out so it became an aggressive act instead of an act of appreciation it became an act of punishment or an act of exclusion and by people that are clearly out of their [ __ ] mind that was also part of the problem is their their arguments are incoherent you would see that [ __ ] stupid president of the university Standing in front of those kids and they told them to put his hands down because he was threatening their you're scaring us you're making violent

gestures with your hands so he puts his hands down and they start laughing okay this is nonsense now you're in little kids yet little kids running it or the flies on a grand scale in a State University and it's all I mean this is a public university right I mean they get funding right this is all chaos nobody Agrees they got baseball bats they're looking for him if he's coming back to the school the kids form these vigilante groups with weapons over what like who's threatening you like what is happening but you need weapons is

that the big story there was the non reporting what do you mean well the New York Times Washington Post all of these major organs NPR they didn't report they didn't want to touch the story well this is what this is my my big theory here is Every outfit that has a a grand narrative cannot report the news that goes counter-narrative so racism by blacks against whites cannot be reported by any outfit that believes that racism is impossible by blacks against whites that's such a preposterous position the idea that racism is exclusive to any group well

but the redeafination the redefinition can suck a fat dick it's a stupid read mo that's true this idea that the only way you can be racist is If you have power over that other group that's nonsense every human beings act as individuals they always have power over each other you have power to intimidate you have power to isolate you have power if you what kind of using about this is is that there is no pretense of consistency I mean on that side of the aisle it's like we're gonna throw out the following 17 completely contradictory

rules and then we'll tell you which rule is operative in any given Moment so you know I was gonna throw out this concept of the Hilbert problems for social justice so one of them is you cannot understand me because my experience is too different and you must understand me because so important yeah right or we are all similar enough that any deviation from 50/50 shows you the amount of sexism in a workforce and we are all so different that once you include women in previously male occupations you will see a great benefit Because of diversity

of opinion well these are all these self contradictory couplets right that you have to agree to well that's the weird thing is who assumed that I just buy all of your stuff I think we've made a terrible tactical error we fought these bad ideas rather than saying maybe we should just accept all of your bad ideas and then show you what kind of weird world no yes no no no no you can't do that because they don't make sense you can't say oh Yeah they make sense and how do I know when you're serious well

but that if I just let those through and those things fail but that's my point is is that by showing the internal this is in mathematics we call this reductio ad absurdum that once you take on many different points you show the conflicts showing that those things can't all be true there's no way in which if I accept all of your ideas I can run anything so you know take this thing about the trans exclusion from Victoria's Secret right well you didn't hear about this Oh God so the idea is that the Victoria's Secret lingerie

division head had to step down where there was a scandal in the background that somebody had said we don't actually want trans people walking the Victoria's Secret runway right and so very interesting you have a company that is dedicated to the commercial exploitation Of humans as sexual objects for the privilege of the male gaze and now you're angry that it doesn't include trans into that exploited class so just without without getting into whether this makes like good economic sense or anything there's just the issue of self contradiction but isn't that a reductionist view of what

Victoria Secrets is isn't it possible that a woman can feel empowered and sexy if She's wearing lingerie and it's not just to the exploiting of the male gaze that it's just they that she appreciates looking attractive wonderful so take that okay right exactly so the idea is that you're both going to say that that's a positive female empowerment issue right and it's a terrible male exploitation as you at the same time is it a terrible exploitation issue like what if a guy likes what if women decide universally they like guys who wear Leopard skin underwear

and guys start wearing leopard skin tighty whitey underwear well this is sexual [ __ ] but it but yes but that's the difference between that and women wearing lingerie if with women wear a lingerie and they do it because they like to be you know in space dad and they like to be more true that's what we're to accentuate their attract so than the sexual self objectification is an interesting issue of empowerment where is an issue of Oppression it could certainly be well that's a woman's health should take that take that all on why does

it have to be exploitation though that's just a question but what I'm trying to say is you've taken you what some point you've made too many arguments there's this concept called the principle of explosion in the principle of explosion says if you can get one contradiction through airport security you can blow up the Universe that as soon as you allow a single contradiction in the unity of knowledge everything can be proven right so everything becomes meaningless so the game in some sense in mathematics is frequently to say well let's take all of those beautiful things

that you believe so you've just enunciated some I have enunciated some you throw them all in instead of saying what's true and what isn't true you say are these compatible and these ideas are clearly incompatible So for example one of the tricks that I use is to look at advertising for women to women and what phrases get used so if you use the phrase turn heads this summer in quotes and put it into a search engine you'll find all sorts of revealing outfits that are intended to court the male gaze you say well maybe that's

not really the male gaze then you put in a phrase like make him drool and that will be used to market to women and so this issue about can we at least get To a point where we're talking about the internal contradictions of your position like I don't even want to get into what my position is the first thing that's scaring me is that you've said so many things so strongly and so dogmatically and this doesn't have to be about gender it could be about race it could be about class but once once you've said

too many things then I can say look I don't see any way of squaring all of your positions hmm It's not it doesn't even have to do with me right I think that's where we haven't gone to yet so you think letting them come up with as many preposterous things as possible and then once it gets to a position where they the the ideas contradict each other expose that well that's that's my point which is once you've told me all of your principles okay then I'm gonna say great I'm confused do you feel that I

have to understand You or that I can't understand you because I don't know which is operative in this situation tell me the rule how I decide which principle that you've stated governed this situation right and if one last point about that I don't want to have to refer to you where you say well you've brought you bring me each individual situation and I will tell you which principle is operative in which principle is inoperative that doesn't work I want you To list your principles and list your mechanisms for resolving the conflicts within your principles and

then once you've done that we can actually evaluate what you're saying but at the moment it requires you as an Oracle to tell me which of your many contradict your seemingly contradictory positions is operative in every particular case so for example we did that one with the person who is the quantum ex-muslim trans trans you know yeah everything Going on which is operative the person with Makela phobia which is a extremely rare psychological condition or the person who appears to be deep in system self you know some radical self actualization presence there even a person

who wears that crazy makeup should be able to wear whatever they want it's nothing wrong with it you should be able to dress like Paul Stanley from kiss if that's your thing assume that that's true but what if for Example is a heterosexual male you don't want to watch The Crying Game at the Victoria's Secret runway show do you think that wait a minute do you really think that Victoria Secrets runway shows for the heterosexual male in some sense yes what guys you ever watch the Victoria Secret Show that's what the save it no no

I mean that there's something between a fantasy of Victoria Secret as a senior executive recently told Vogue that trans models don't Belong in the fantasy a Victoria's Secret Fashion Show well you know that's that's on him you know he wants to be just because he says doesn't mean it's true I get if you looked at the graph of male to female viewers of a Victoria's Secrets I have no idea it would be like a few prepubescent boys and the vast majority of women and maybe some gay guys but that's it is that right sure it's

got to be without [ __ ] is sitting around it's on in an hour What are you doing Oh again some popcorn ready for the Victoria Secret Fashion Show Doug's coming over and Mike we're gonna drool to TV that [ __ ] out of here is porn and then there's everything else everything else is for chicks okay runway [ __ ] I don't know the single guy out there watching runway [ __ ] it's like remember when playboy had Playgirl that was for gay biggsy okay dudes it's not for chicks all right they don't want

to See that and we don't want to see runways we're not we're not here for runways we get bored easy a bunch of chicks walking around their underwear yeah I think you're calling it very you may be right about who the audience is I have no idea on the demographics I've never watched one of these in my life but it's not the case that I believe that male the male gaze is nowhere to be found here because it's a very weird thing that the female is largely buying An amplifier for something that is supposed to

excite a male but it's it's a little bit to me like the female is the magician buying magic supplies at a store for the audience right sure sure that's a good way of looking at it I don't think there's the male gaze is absent I just don't buy his interpretation of that it's a fantasy for men that's ruined with trans men or trans women I don't I don't have it I don't have a dog in that fight seems Silly seems silly it's like if you don't want transgender people to be in there you just have

to say you can't say it ruins the fantasy you just say I won't wake hiring people that have vaginas I don't know do whatever you want like you could like there's certain jobs if you go to Chippendales like our trans women showing up a trans men are they at Chippendales where they're down there because they don't have a dick and but they're all jacked and they look like a Man is this what women want to see and are they transphobic if they don't want to see that right if women go to it you know one

of those all-male revue shows and it's all trans men but they're heterosexual and they're not really into trans men are they all driven anything phobic yeah so what I'm trying to get at is there's a hierarchy like I'm not that interested in this in the particulars of Victoria's Secret's profitability and what their statements are right what I'm More interested in is you've got you've enunciated so many there's so many different principles at work even as to what should govern in a conflict that you won't tell me well okay when these two things is two beautiful

things that you've said actually lying conflict how do you resolve the conflicts and it seems to be well why don't you consult us on every single one of these and we'll tell you you know case by case right and that Can't work because what I want to know is I don't want to appoint you as an Oracle I want you to state what your positions are I want you to state how you harmonize them and then we're having a conversation but as long as I have to keep going to you and your crazy definitions and

your well this is operative on alternate Tuesdays then it doesn't work I completely see your point however you can't give ground you can't give ground a nonsense because That ground was never get back you're never getting impact if you allow them to establish certain ridiculous principles and rules that are contradictory to each other they'll come up with a reason why they make sense no no you don't allow them to put it into the work force you say look before we put it into the work force let's just understand the seventeen different things that you've said

are absolutes well you're basically doing then what Jordan does and every single one of these debates you're letting people lay out their idea and then you shoot them down and you decide what's what's logical and what's he illogical right I think that's that's the UFC of ideas right and this is why it's important to let these shitty ideas into the match why do we still have so much caught up in the Aikido League and the kung-fu Lee's because it sounds good people like the idea that you don't have to learn Much you can just go

in there with a death touch [ __ ] people up they don't want to think that all you have to practice for 10,000 hours you have to sprawl and work on your leg kicks in work so maybe this public shaming is death touch well debating these I think honestly and I'm not trying to blow Jordans horn any more than I already have but I think what he does is very important because he is one of the few that engages in these people in these Very public forums right in these long forum debates where they go

to war with ideas and these are way better they get their conversations cuz because he's [ __ ] good at well they want to chop them they're not picking you so much because I'm friendly I'm not as like I'm not as combative as he is so I said I'm also not as smart as he is and I'm also not as I'm not I don't have your credentials yeah I don't have the credentials that he has like When he's the University of Toronto professor my PhD when he's going to war with these people there they're throwing

out valiant warriors to die at his sword what did you happen to watch with bread and Richard Dawkins Chicago what happened they appeared on the stage for the first time well and oppose each other oh yeah really on religion oh well as Dawkins now religious no no no Dawkins is staunchly in that a sort of new atheist aggressive God as I panicked Because I know he had a stroke okay guys you know I'm saying oh yeah I thought your brother was an atheist as well yeah but Brett doesn't think that that religion is a virus

it's not parasitizing license he believes that religion is actually an adaptation and the weird thing was is he said look there's young Dawkins and there's old Dawkins and young Dawkins came up with these two powerful ideas the idea that the meme the unit of ideation is is a Gene like object he also came up with the idea of the extended phenotype so when you talked about that ant mound that you're excavating that ant mound is in some sense part of the ants strategy it's such a it's so deeply tied in that you have to consider

the ant mound as part of the ants system because it can't exist without that complicated underground city right right and so what he said was okay if I use these two concepts that memes are like jeans and That jeans can throw off a bad meme instantly so genes memes have to ride on a gene and they can't parasitize it too much and you also have this inclusive fitness which is that maybe religions code travel with us and allow us to out-compete those who don't have them because they seem to be found everywhere they're so prevalent

right you have to if you looked at it objectively not looked at it in terms of it you know how you feel about cult-like behavior and People's susceptibility to influence if you just looked at objectively from another dimension you'd go well clearly this is a part of being a successful person about it exactly so beretta Brett and Dawkins met and I think Dawkins had this kind of reaction like oh crap I'm meeting an ultra Darwinist who's read my work taken it seriously and is feeding it back in and saying you you Richard Dawkins in your

younger years established ideas who When that when those ideas logical consequences are explored it completely negates your late-life hatred for religion because it reveals it to be an adaptation rather than a parasitize ation of the human species you know the real problem that I've always had with Dawkins and his take on religion is not that he's wrong or they're right it's his anger that he has when he's talking to people that believe yeah he sets he sets up the kind of like heavy conflict That you know the way people interact with each other right is

very the reactions are very dependent upon the attitude that a person has when they go into this interaction you know what two people meet on the street one person the one person meets that person says the same words and they wind up hugging another person meets that person and has a fistfight right like what what is what's the difference well there's a lot of it is the way you approach people a Lot of is the way you accept people's ideas the way you communicate with them the way you allow them to fully express themselves without

judgment and he doesn't he doesn't buy anything he feels like there's a war going on and he's got to shut down religion as quickly as possible that's thing he wanted to know so good no all right he wanted to fashion science into a cudgel that was maximally efficient for beating the crap out of her lid that's a great way to put And what Brett did is to say actually your scientific work goes in the exact opposite direction the reason I brought it up was it was one of these unexpected occurrences that when you have a

meeting of these things and this is your point about the UFC is that the mixed martial arts thing is hey we don't know what's gonna work we don't know what's gonna I wouldn't nobody knows anything yet and grad we came to understand that there were Certain systems that were hyper effective and that even those could get you know you were making the point earlier about Brazilian Jujitsu didn't it keep advancing at the same level once we understood the role of all of these different systems in advancing fighting so the question that I'm having repeatedly is

what kept Brett and Dawkins for example from having that meeting where I think Dawkins probably didn't Fully understand what he was getting into when he agreed to appear with an evolutionary theorist on stage but do you don't you think that he's just very confident in his ideas he's very confident his intellectual capabilities he's been doing these type of debates and shutting down these secular peor these these people that are I mean from various religions right I mean from he's he's had these debates with people from Judaism from Christianity who's been It's part of his career

right yeah I mean and even what the [ __ ] his name the the Indian fella who everybody makes fun of what the [ __ ] his name Dinesh D'Souza no the other guy the one the this the quantum guy that's always using Deepak Chopra yeah that guy that guy's constantly using inappropriate quantum words right throws quantum into [ __ ] vegetable soup and tries to make it to make sense he's used a lot of world salad right you know and I mean I've Seen him debate him too I mean there's you know you you

like these videos of the the fake martial arts guys yeah and they they they show up for the challenge because they've actually bought it right sandwich dupe Deepak you well this is what I'm trying to get at isn't it interesting that in general the people who say you know immigration is a pure good there is no connection between Islam and terror the only people who oppose free trade or protectionist these People know enough not to want to trounce us because what they're saying is is wrong right mm-hm and they're expert enough to know that they

are they've got a secret five point you know exploding heart technique or something and they know it's nonsense and so they won't actually they do well then why not I don't why don't they want why don't they want in I don't think they I don't think they necessarily do actually believe that They're wrong I do think that some of these people that are like super progressive and very very committed to some of these may be illogical positions on some of these ideas are afraid of conflict though and I think that's one of the reasons why

they shy towards progressivism towards socialism I don't think they like conflict I don't know no they'd like to get together and scream at people okay here's what they like together get Together in large groups okay say we know where you sleep you [ __ ] racist you [ __ ] piece of [ __ ] but one on one they're cowards okay like this is this is the type of person that would think it's a good idea to show up and bang on someone's we hear them in their home that type of person is not the

type of person that would that looks forward to on an even battlefield engaging someone one on one and just just open communication that's not what they're Doing what they're doing is trying to silence people scare people and timid a people they're bullies intellectual bullies people are bullies are almost always insecure they're almost always scared so this is why there's been very few people that are jumping forward to try to go to intellectual war would wouldn't it Rachel Maddow or Linda Sarsour one in I mean they're pretty intact you're dealing with two very different types of

human beings a Rachel Maddow is one thing Linda Sarsour is a very very seriously religious person who's got some you know very deep beliefs as far as Islam she wears the hijab I mean just as two totally different things I don't know buddy but if I listed a group of people like the late-night comedians there's this very weird thing that they all seem to believe the same like there was a secret meeting that they all agreed to a bunch of stuff that I I want to see the Conference proceedings like what's how so well just

that they all kind of know that the Republicans are all horrible the Democrats are basically good people that they all know that climate science is settled science I mean there's some that they have these pretty much of open borders or a great thing and that everybody who doesn't believe in that is only so is only not believing it because of xenophobia right whatever these set of beliefs are I don't see These guys in open discussion particularly you know two hours long well I don't think it's a that could could you get Stephen Colbert Seth Meyers

in here and have a discussion my guess is really yeah I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure they'd be I'm sorry they're scared of having discussions with people but I don't see them in a very they'd have to be very measured because they lose their job it's not it's not that simple like they make a Tremendous amount of money right if they came and said anything that could be misconstrued or misinterpreted even not even actually being something that's actually transphobic or actually homophobic are actually xenophobic if they said anything that could be taken out of context

and put in a small clip and then sent out and it goes viral they're done look at megyn kelly yeah megyn kelly had a question about why can't you wear makeup to look like Diana Ross why can't you well there's some good reasons why you can't there's some good racial history behind blackface however why is it that she can't even ask a question without losing her job like that's it pull the plug you we have to make a [ __ ] statement we aboard islands but dude that's exactly what you said about about the whole

Kung Fu thing that is it only can exist in a protected context well first of all someone like megan kelly can only exist in a Protected contest with all these people and protected contest stephen colbert is like gotta be one of the fastest minds on the planet that everybody i know who's smart who's done his show says he just thinks faster than you did well I'm sure he's very smart guy I'm sure this guy's feet okay but but he's also a Catholic devout yeah yeah yes yeah doesn't bother me bothers me doesn't bother me an

organization of kid [ __ ] well well How come he's not speaking out against all those kids getting [ __ ] well that if you're a Catholic yeah like I was raised Catholic I mean I'm not saying that he is I'm not saying the people he no Tsar but this is a giant problem with that organization but but that's not what's not bothering me what's not bother with baby well I want to make sure that we're talking I think we're about to talk past each other so wondering it back okay I think you just gave

me an answer yes he can't appear in this kind of a context because that might come up and he needs to be in a world with much more restricted rules where someone can't say it's an organization of kid [ __ ] that's right yeah it's not just more restricted world that that's the reason why that has been able to survive that's what I'm training yeah that people don't talk about that but but is the idea that this is such a restore point about Aikido was if you happen to be unarmed and attacked by a man

with a sword this might have some value it would have some value of someone to attack you in a very specific what's right didn't understand okay these are the ideas that that's a very restricted rule set on which to fight it yes so now maybe what you just said to me which could open this whole thing up is that all of these people can only apply their ability to have a back and forth of ideas if the rules are Heavily restricted I don't necessarily think that's the case I think they could do it in other

ways I think all of them are operating under this rule system because this rule system is how they get paid but I think Seth Meyers a very smart guy I know Jimmy Kimmel he's a very smart guy they could do whatever they want he could do a podcast he could do anything he could operate into any and any genre I believe and I think I would imagine the same with Colbert I Mean I think Jimmy Fallon same thing but when they're forced into that box and this is a hundred million dollar a year box you

know it feels good in their box it's [ __ ] velvet walls and you get to drive a fat Mercedes and live in Beverly Hills to you decide to stay in that box right maybe their mind is in that box maybe they're eight on a regular basis maybe there's not any restriction for them at all because this is how they operate all the time so I did the show With Jordan and Ben Shapiro on Dave's set right before Ben went on real Time with Bill Maher and Ben was kind of excited to do Bill Maher

and said yeah I don't think he's gonna rough me up but you know I think he's gonna be a gentleman I think he's one of us and then when Ben sat down with Bill we saw this thing that was very we were sort of hoping because bill is kind of the most towards us of anybody in that kind of mainstream environment mm-hmm and what I Saw which I hadn't really appreciated was that bill was not doing this kind of open discussion thing a lot of his tone was leading like surely you're not gonna say the

dominant huh you know it wasn't just purely saying are you saying that right it was all of this emotional instruction yes and it was clear that to me that when I saw a ban on that in that context that there were only a few hours separating the two appearances and that the characteristics of that environment And where Bill's show is the most like this show that it's just too different you're not it's not really the same ecosystem and you couldn't have an open debate unless it cuts off after seven minutes and the host is in

control well bill doesn't have any time that's well this is part of the problem there are the terms of they have a very restricted format he was doing a conversation with Steve Bannon and he was on Sam Harris's podcast he was talking about it he said That one of the problems was he got to this point I was like I was I wanted to ask him more stuff but I ran out of time right and I heard that I was like what the [ __ ] kind of ancient system are you operating later that you

run out of time but let's take let's take him at his word well he definitely did run out of time but assume that that's true instead that Bill Maher said hey guys I want to I want the following situation I want to continue to do real-time in the same Format that it's always been done right but I want to have a podcast like Rogen where we take as much time as we need and I don't think those two things play together oh they're fine together yeah I think together but you hear that they're not well

here's the thing he went on Sam's podcast and I enjoyed him more than I enjoy him on his show I know because he had checkers didn't look the same way on Dave Rubin show though he looked totally different how do you look I didn't say it oh my god you got to see it you know Tucker you know I'm having my own weird issues where I used to you know my previous position was that Fox News is just propaganda and the Tucker was in that old crossfire situation way back when Tucker was like opening up

as a different person saying you have the freedom you're the new I'm still stuck in the old well he must really feel that it may really feel like he is Like look that is what you have to do if you want to survive on Fox News and again it's a velvet coffin you're in there it's beautiful yes you're getting paid [ __ ] loads of money but you don't necessarily have the freedom to express first of all you don't have long-form free right and you don't have the freedom to completely express yourself across the border

like you could you you can't look at the left side ia's and say you know what I really like the idea of Universal healthcare right I really liked the idea of universal basic income I really out like the idea of paying for people's school Joe I think you and I actually have a really interesting difference of opinion yeah I think your opinion is there's nothing preventing you from staying in the velvet coffin and doing this style of podcast and my guess is I'm not saying that okay I'm always saying that with Bill Maher I think

Tucker Carlson probably can't do That I think of Tucker Carlson Colbert do it yes I don't think so I think he could I don't think he would though I think he out of all of them and I think he's brilliant don't get me wrong and when I said he's from an organization of kid [ __ ] it's not him I mean but he's a part of the Cathy you could do semi you could do any one of these people they're all bright athil you think is a big thing I mean it's a big thing in

terms of first of all the actual reality Of the organization and what they've done to protect people that have molested children it's unprecedented right it's also something that I was raised in I mean I was Catholic I went to Catholic school I don't think that he wants to do that sort of wild country open type internet show I think he enjoys wearing a tie and doing a straight up talk show like the Johnny Carson show or the Jay Leno Show and I think he's very very good at it and I Don't think there's anything wrong

with that I think a lot of people like that that's one preference and I understand that but I think that's him I might be wrong I'm just assuming there's a dragon to do different or what imagine that if you tried to do both of these things you would be revealed you'd be caught between two worlds where if like I actually think that a lot of these ideas would collapse just the way kung fu collapsed I think You're probably right I think if you had two people having these conversations in long form instead of those CNN

three windows we're just battling it out for six minutes and then you know everybody's yelling over everybody that is the single worst way to argue ideas I think there's no Gracie challenge there's not well Jordan Peterson is kind of doing his own thing with a challenge that because somebody's gender Yeah and he's the only one they want yes well which is which is I think boys crazy of the intellectual voice crazy [Laughter] he's out there tapping wrestlers yeah I mean I think not legitimately you know he's worked his way past that kung fu people and

he's now on to like Olympic wrestlers like they're throwing at him this this latest woman was very good yeah she's much better than that Kathy Newman lady she didn't make any of these Ridiculous straw man arguments she she came at him with her positions and her points it was interesting I think what you're saying is true for everybody except Bill Maher I think Bill Maher would hold his positions in podcast form and I think he would just have more time to expand on them and I base this on him being on Sam Harris show and

I found it to be very good it was the 10th anniversary of Religulous and he was excellent on there I think he could do It but I think he's also he can say [ __ ] you he got in trouble for dropping an N bomb on his show in a joking form I mean he's a different cat the whole thing is very different with him he's on HBO but when Ice Cube came to him and said you can't do that it was painful to me because I was positive that he had a carlin style attitude

about that word that's tough because in this environment again that's where he makes his living he butters his bread over at HBO and if You wanted to have a long-form conversation with that guy even on a podcast and he didn't have an HBO show that's one thing but if you have an HBO show you have to have a totally different attitude because one wrong you're walking a tightrope but this is what I'm trying to get it is that we are too dangerous in some sense to play with because he Belva Sask talked we beat bill

and I actually went back and forth On an email about something yeah I dropped the ball but no he would do anybody's podcast I don't think that's the case he could do his own podcast as well and I agree that he would be the one most likely to be able to do both he could do it yeah he could do it I think all of them could do it I think Seth Meyers could do it too I think Jimmy Kimmel could probably do it as good or better than any of them Jimmy absolutely could do

it I mean the only thing that's Holding him back look he's a man of his ideas he's not gonna he's probably the least likely to alter or manipulate his ideas of anybody that's ever done one of those late-night talk show hosts he's just operating inside a format where you don't swear and you have a certain amount of time and you try to be funny and you say insightful stuff but he's a very ethical guy and he's also a very very smart guy and he's also very rich he's got a shitload of [ __ ] you

Money right and I think Jimmy Kimmel could do it easily I think a lot of people could do it easily and I think they're gonna have to I think some some point along the line they're gonna realize that the restrictions that they're operating under unless they really enjoy that format I don't think those formats are going to be there that long I think those formats are a lot like sitcoms like they're slowly starting to vanish you know for everyone Roseanne show that ends up which is kind of nostalgic and you know that runs into its

own disaster right how many new sitcoms are there that everybody's aware of [ __ ] it used to be every time there was a new sitcom whether it was friends or you know fill in the blank whatever the show Seinfeld there was everybody was talking about these new sitcoms right nobody [ __ ] talks about sitcoms anymore well this is the you know this is the thing I took on this morning on Twitter which was Dave Rubin and Brett Weinstein myself we're talking about this phenomena of very high follower counts with psycho low engagement oh

yeah that's fake but those are fake followers that's what that is well it may be but it's a lot of it but it's very interesting that we're talking about getting rid of visible follower counts and getting rid of likes who's saying that apparently there's discussion about Jack May have floated some trial balloons that Twitter is going to try to improve the level of conversation and by getting rid of follower counts right and removing likes do you imagine thinking you're going to improve the level of conversation by getting rid of a heart that you and someone's

like the artists but it's a heart yep it's literally a heart but its feet but you're clicking on a heart yes on Instagram and on Twitter it's a heart It's a like here's your little heart I love you I'm gonna get rid of love Jack come on Jack gonna get rid of love you're terrifying umid being Jeff why what what's terrifying about because I'm seeing you blowing kisses in my general direction I'm remembering all the videos I've watched where you attack some sort of a punching bag with those vicious spinning elbow or something I just

think Nick okay listen you can't we're talking about ideas here you can't no I want to Get out all that stuff later one of my midlife crises suck with with some instruction for I think we gotta end this okay we've done four hours and ten are you kidding me show you what they said we've been saying for a while we are rethinking everything about the service to ensure we are incentivizing healthy conversation that includes the like button we are in the early stages of the work and have no plans to share right now and this

is in response to Telegraph the Telegraph saying Twitter to remove the like tool and a bid to improve the quality of debate yeah I think something really weird is going on well I mean what is the quality of debate and by whose definition I mean and you're not gonna them you're definitely not going to change the way people interact with each other you're just not people interact with each other because they're anonymous they have incentive to talk [ __ ] it's Fun okay so the one thing I could ask as we close this thing out

is if we could plug not only my Twitter which is my main thing but I'm trying to diversify into Instagram and YouTube should I get shut off Twitter are you worried about getting shut off I'm always worried but you don't say anything inflammatory like would you you're very logical and reasonable guy so you think it's really gotten to that point well yeah I'm actually worried that by being logical And reasonable I have more a risk because the things that I'm saying we're also recognizing intellectual and very left-wing your progressive yeah so why would they shut

you off oh I think because they're much more worried about a progressive who says that the current progressiveness is absolute stupidity that's much more dangerous than some right winger who's always against anything that's progressive interesting there's a war Foot you love that kind of stuff you love that cloak and dagger type [ __ ] don't ya yeah one part of the ineffectual dork with watch your stuff I don't see ineffectual international web yeah that's what I call it listen I have to I can't call myself a part of the dark web that's just too ridiculous

from a man in my position okay we'll see you at the semi that leaves one of the thousand people that speak the humor across the lands listen this is Effortless yeah I could do this I did that no idea was for hours but flew by it was awesome all right we can I just give the the names please do all right I think I am it's 5:10 Jesus Eric or Weinstein on I'm now I'm Eric or Weinstein at Twitter I'm Eric Weinstein PhD I think on Instagram and on my Instagram I linked you on the

Instagram okay so I'm an eric tarr weinstein an Instagram and I'm on YouTube Eric Weinstein PhD yeah and if you can't Find his Instagram I linked it on my Instagram alright Joe thanks for having me with you my friend lots of fun alright bye you [ __ ] [Applause] [Music] [Music]