Secrets of the Legal Industry Part 3 of 3

[Music] n [Music] all right all right uh just before we went to our lunch break I told you about being called by some people from Arizona and they had a $6.8 million judgment against them and and they were in a terrible fix and asked if I could help and I speculated that I could but I didn't really know whether I could or Not I was kind of gambling on this would be one of those usual lawyer mess ups like they usually do that there'd be something in there that would give me a chance to attack

it and these people again this is a real deal they were sued and the circumstances in this suit is they belong to a one of these Cooperative Property Owners organizations out there where they were living Liv in another state and then they' come down to live in Arizona where It's warm and sunshiny and winter and they had this property and discovered that the promoters of this property were embezzling funds and doing a lot of other things that were wrong and so they approached the situation and one of the things that they did was they actually

put out uh what was called a hand Bill to identify this illegal activity and they didn't succeed in getting any kind of criminal Activity Charges going against these people but they the promoters did Sue them for um maligning their reputation and U these folks in Arizona we're acquainted with uh the work of uh somebody that's I guess you'd call highly associated with the Patriot movement and so this person did the paperwork for him and this is what it looks like and it go it goes back where I Started at the very beginning and I said

we talked about The Fringe around the flag see this guy's got a nice little flaged on here and I don't know what this other graphic is on here for and for some reason everything is an all capital letters bun of it's underlied BAC and a lot of other stuff and and I'm here to tell you that it didn't work it didn't work to make those claims About what's associated with what I call the fringed flag arguments in fact this guy had had actually told him when you go into a hearing don't admit that you're the

person named in this suit when they ask you what your name is you say that your name is John Sten Truman comma do and then when they say well is this you hear say repeat yourself just repeat it that's what the people did they went Into a hearing and they did that to a judge and they hate this judge but in reading the minutes of the hearing I don't think that they should really hate the judge but of course I can't see the the uh facial ticks the Expressions I can't hear the tone of voice

I don't know maybe it's really BRAC with them I don't know but what I saw was a judge that Tried and begged these people to get away from this stuff get away from that get away from that talk to me they wouldn't testify they said we stand on our pleadings will you have any questions for the other side we stand on our pleadings ing well are you going to deny that you did these things we stand on our pleadings and they said they were standing on their pleadings they were Standing on and my goodness that's

thick there's a bunch of pages in that this is what they were standing on I'm not going to read it because to me it's gobbley and that resulted in a judgment against them of 6.8 million dollar and that's what I say is if you if you're out there near your goal and you feel a tug it may be that tether of Misinformation they want to be careful about this kind of stuff and when when they talk to this guy and say well you know we did what you told us and it didn't work don't worry

about it I'm going to do this and what is this this is their suit in the world court against the individuals that got the Judgment against Them that is allegedly worth $700 million and so as I conversed with these people and as I looked at their papers one of the things that they said is oh by the way can you help us uh file this judgment Lane Arizona and I said no no no no don't do that don't do that let me do some investigation because I don't know about Arizona but in Oklahoma you do

that you're go to Jail well I was able to get to the the uh World court of justice which is not hard to do and strangely enough to try to investigate this $700 million judgment that these people thought they had you know none of their names are even there of course it wouldn't be correct anyway because there's nothing at the world court of justice that tells me that I can sue you and the world Court nothing that Informs me that I can do that there but that's what that's what going back to early in our

discussion this morning we need to be free of the tether of misinformation because it'll get you clobbered and and in the case of these people with a judgment of $6.8 million so we set that aside and then we start to work this case and look at the record and see what was done and what wasn't done and we look for the mistakes That I say that attorneys often make and uh I I hope as I'm telling this story that you're kind of um uh relating to two things one is what you may have heard in

seminars read in books about courts and jurisdiction and all of this stuff and the other is um what it must feel like to be these people there now their lives are ruined but I don't look at a situation Is as hopeless on its surface I look for something that I can use now then the first thing I did was I went where where do we go we go to the annotated statutes and I started looking and reading in the annotated statutes and of course this is what those Critters look like and I started looking for

Holdings that I was going to use to amount a collateral attack because I had read the um Minutes not of the trial because there wasn't a trial it was a sumary judgment but at had read the minutes of the hearing where the judge said okay I've already given them their judgment now I'm going to decide how much you people are going to get clobbered with and that was the hearing where these people were saying things like I'm John colen Truman commodo and I stand on the pleadings and that sort of stuff and one of the

things that I Noticed that in the actual minutes of that the Court ruled and determined that they were jointed and severally liable now there are eight people on a receiving end of this deal eight people were then going to be destroyed because no matter who had what they were going to come after all eight of them now when I read the annotated I made an interesting Discovery joint and several liability in Arizona has been abolished you can't have a joint several liability judgment against somebody in Arizona when you have a judgment against multiple parties the

judge has to actually issue a separate judgment for each plaintiff and each defendant a portioning exactly what each damages are to be paid so we immediately have a challenge to What subject matter jurisdiction the judge did not have authority to clobber these eight people with this joint seral liability but he doesn't exist does not exist so that's one angle along with the fact that um in this summary judgment none of them got notice of it either which is a major failing so that enables me to attack this judgment and so one of the materials that

you have is that actual Petition mark would you like to help me read this okay this is a petition to vacate a void judgment Melvin W citizen Elizabeth M Citizen and so forth herein after identified as plain petition this court under authority of Arizona uh civil procedure and the common law doctrines established in the American Credit Bureau versus Pima County for vacation of a void judgment in case number CV 92663 a copy of which is attached the face of the record shows that the plaintiffs in the above style cause were not in receipt of notice

of complainants motion for summary judgment in case CV 99 02663 had no means to know a motion for summary judgment or the hearing conducted to determine liability the plaintiffs were deprived of procedural due process rights the clear face of the record shows that the court did not have Jurisdiction over the parties a procedural due process requisite for determining liability jurisdiction of parties and subject matter is essential to a valid judgment and Court must have jurisdiction to enter the particular judgment vaness versus superior court of the state in and for Maricopa County a judgment is void

on its face and is subject to Collateral attack unless court has jurisdiction of the subject Matter of the persons involved in the litigation and to render the particular judgment given hulford versus industrial commission trial court had no jurisdiction over person of defendant who was never served with summons and complaint who never appeared in the declaratory judgment action and who only filed notice requesting copies of all minute entries and documents long after trial therefore judgment as to such defendant was void American Natural fire Insurance and versus Esquire Labs of Arizona once existence of personal jurisdiction is

appropriately challenged party asserting jurisdiction as burden of establishing it lie coming division of avco versus Superior Court of Maricopa County the complainant action to determine liability was not procedurally or substant substantively a provisional remedy before any provisional remedy shall Issue the party seeking such remedy shall establish with particularity by affidavit to the Court's satisfaction sufficient facts supporting the party's claim and establish that one of the requirements of subsection a of statute authoriz authoriz authorizing provisional remedies has been met and that such party will file such other pleadings or affidavit as required by law as a

prerequisite to the issuance of any provisional remedy Sought see Arizona civil procedures the court in case CV 99 02663 wanted subject manner jurisdiction to find Melvin W citizen Elizabeth M citizen so forth and severally liable the the court in kcv 92663 made no inquiry into individual culpability of each respondent Melvin W citizen Elizabeth M Citizen and so forth the court failed to a portion degrees of Fault to Melvin W citizen Elizabeth M Citizen and so forth the court in kcv 99 02663 made no finding that any party was responsible for the fault of another party

joint and several liability has been abolished in Arizona accepting where degrees of fault have been apportioned each defendant is liable only for the amount of the damages allocated to that defendant in direct proportionate in direct proportion to the defendant's percentage Of fault and a separate judgment shall be entered against the defendant for that amount to determine the amount of judgment to be entered against each defendant the Trier of fact I'm sorry the Trier of fact shall multiply the total amount of Damages recoverable by the plaintiff by the percentage of each defendant's fault and that amount

is the maximum recoverable against the defendant the relative degree of fault of the claimant and the relative degrees Of fault of all defendants and non-parties shall be determined and apportioned as a whole at one time by the Trier of fact if two or more claimants have independent claims a separate determination and apportionment of the relative degrees of fault of the respective parties and the non-parties at fault shall be made with respect to each of the independent claims the liability of each defendant is uh several only and is not Joint abolition of the joint and several

liability applies to all actions depending on the effective date of the act in Arizona tor users are to pay for the damages that they cause but no more each defendant is liable only amount of Damages allocated to the defendant percentage of fault pulley versus National hole-in one Association in in in an indivisible injury case the FactFinder is to compute the total amount of damage sustained by The plaintiff and the percentage of fault of each T feaser multiplying the first figure by the second gives the maximum recoverable against each Court feaser lson versus Nissan motor corporation

uh review denied the court is required to allocate responsibility among all parties who cause the injury with each such party's liability several but not join but not joint to cure the deep pocket problem of the defendant Piner Versus Superior Court in and for County of Maricopa the trior must determine and a portion all to degrees of fault of all parties and non non-parties zurin by and through zurin versus Ford Motor Company uh review was granted let's see I think that's part of the citation the court must a portion fault between all wrongdoing huton versus City

of Phoenix uh a judgment is void on its Face and is subject to Collateral attack unless the court has jurisdiction of the subject matter of the persons involved in the litigation and to render the particular judgment given haford versus industrial commission a court must have jurisdiction of the subject matter if it has not jurisdiction a Court's judgment may be collaterally attacked Vargas versus Greer lack of jurisdiction over subject Matter can be raised at any time versus Kelly versus Kelly a jury's determination that Melvin W Citizen and so forth were not in receipt of notice prior

to the hearing to determine liability Andor the court in court uh excuse me in CV 99 02663 did not apportion damages among Melvin W Citizen and so forth justly this justly requires vacating the Judgment in case CV 92663 together with the ward of of cost And damages for any taking of the money or property from Melvin W citizen Elizabeth M Citizen and so forth for the time spent litigating and then there's an affidavit a sample of an affidavit attached to you thank you Mark appreciate that is it all there isn't isn't it just pretty much

a a primer a howto on vacating AV void judgment and where did it come From did it come from the authority the the annotated Authority did we empower the court to act did we State the courts ofth act right up here when we started out Did we tell the judge here's where you have authority to act they had one potential or they have one potential defense and that is to say that this original summary judgment was a provisional action no no I opened that gate and I Closed it the language is in there where I

said this was not a provisional remedy so don't go there don't argue that it was not a provisional remedy and it was not a provisional remedy for these reasons it's all in the pleadings so there's kind of a how- to and I think there's also a how not to where in the world did this stuff come from anyway but haven't we who were in and associated with the Patriot movement seen tons of this haven't We what happens when you use it $6.8 million I think Mr cam how um question I have is you say that

when you get a case like this I'm call you up on the phone that you then go to that State's anotated code how do you know what to look for in the code so that you can determine that you're C okay they the question is um uh I believe what to look for in a in a resp Respective States annotated statutes that will make that particular thing void and uh I was asked during the break if this is something that I made up and I did kind of sort of but the law of voids which

I discovered in 1993 is one of it's a it's a legal Doctrine I haven't found any place that it doesn't exist and it's kind of a uh last defense for People under our constitution as it is interpreted by our Supreme Courts to defend their property interest we are a country that by Design and intent held the ability to own property as sacred do we all agree but there's been a lot of damage to that ideal but we can see that surviving for more than 200 years is still a provisional remedy for us to get our

property back when it was wrongfully taken when the other side Didn't follow the rules when I go to a state I know that I can look almost always in the index under voids void judgments judgments void uh set aide judgment there is there's always going to be a way of finding that it isn't necessarily going to be easy but it's so far it's always been there and again what you're going to do is you're going to be a keyed to that state Authority for vacating judgments you're going to have in the annotated Just like this

you're going to have a whole bunch of Holdings and like I said I don't have the time the interest the energy or the enthusiasm to go read every one of those cases but what I'm going to do is I'm going to look for the Holdings that are going to enable me to pick apart the other side's case and then there are going to be some selected cases that I'm going to get but I'm interested in the logic of why that case Was wrong this one they really kind of made it easy for me but yes

you go to the state annotated statutes Oklahoma rates act fairly high on the list as far as a person's ability to get relief of avoid judgment well now when you go to those statutes statutes on foreclosures would you would you have a key there to look under foreclosures or would you look under property or is there some way to go like the guy with The you went to that how would you find the subject IED to look up for the case you wanted to look up whether it was on or whe it was on the

county whether it was on somebody else the subject I guess you is way to check that out okay let me repeat that verbatim uh let me tell you about a philosophy that I have in what I do ulyses S Grant this is probably paraphrasing Terribly but when ask about his theory of War said you find the enemy and you hit him with everything you've got and you keep on him until you destroy them so in response to your question I'll look at all of those I'll look at everything I'll look at anything that could give

me any leverage at all I'm going to look in the annotated to see if it leads me to where I can actually Start out a paragraph heading with a number on it and say something from any angle so I'll look under foreclosures because all of this knits together you have all these actions out here in all these different directions but they're all going to be clustered under the law or doctrine of voids because they all have to have the same parameters to be a valid judgment Doesn't matter whether it was a foreclosure or whether it

was a criminal case or whatever it was if you go back and you look at that court record it had to have a a four-legged table to stand so I'll Attack everything I'll Attack it from any angle I can think of is that a sufficient answer well I just thought I went the annotated I have to read all of those annotated things in there or would there Be a subject I could go to or are they all pertain to what I might them all they're under headings they're very well they're under headings and they're very

well organized that's what I want for example in certain States if you look under their annotated statutes under vacating a void judgment you'll actually see you know if if this was a foreclosure action here's your case law that's what I if if this was a divorce here's here's the you know It's under headings the the the the annotated statutes are really a marvelous resource for two reasons first of all because they they represent such a tremendous economy in time and secondly because they're in education Mark Mays and I met at the Oklahoma City University Library

just about um 54 weeks ago and we got the Oklahoma State annotated on Oklahoma 12 1038 and we started reading that and Mark who has had some formal legal background training I think it's safe to say that this was kind of like going to a couple of semesters of school wasn't it it was that informative because Mark like we all were at some point in time were drawn into this notion that this is all so terribly complex and you can't possibly do this you can't understand this you're not an Attorney I mean look at all

these millions of law books how many of those have you read do I really need to read if you can get your hands on the annotated but uh it's not going to it's not going to be readily available on the internet anytime soon because and it's not because of the publisher rights in it it's because once that's right once you get your hands on that you beat them at their own game you Beat them at their own game it's just like um one of the lines from um I've got an autobiograph not I've got a

biography of uh General George S Patton Jr and that biography confirms that many of the things that were attributable to General Patton as having said he really really did say those things he really did say those things before his battle in the desert Against um raml he got rl's book he wanted to know how raml fought well see when you have those annotated now you know how the system works you know how they think you're right to the heart of the matter there and after Patton's tank Army his tank Corps defeated ramls as as he

watched the uh the German uh tank core disintegrating he said Rama you magnificent bastard I read your Book in other words I found out how you think I know what I know how you think I know what your game plan is that's what the annotated will do for you Richard do you know where we can get the uh the question is where can you get the an and the annotated are available on CD at a cost of the last time I priced them $1,800 so anybody with a CD burner doesn't mind I never said that

yeah yeah Uh almost exactly the same accordance to the Bible Well I would refer to the annotated statutes as as the Bible of of law yeah because they're they're what you can rely on if they're not in the annotated statutes you don't know whether you can rely on it and you probably can't because as you walk through a law library and you see those hundreds of thousands of books unless the cases in that book those books Actually appear in the annotated at least as a um key reference they're just Philosophy of Law and that's one

of the things that in my opinion is wrong with our law schools they're not teaching people about law or how to practice law they're teaching people Philosophy of Law so consequently You' got people coming out of law school and they can stand up here like I am but they'll talk all day on roie Wade but Ask them if they need to support a motion for summary judgment with affidavit they huh that's procedure I don't know anything about procedure I think I think your question is how do you how do you reproduce a uh an authority

without without violating copyright laws and it's my understanding that as long as you get proper sighting to that and you're not reproducing it Commercially then that's permissible that's my understanding if if I'm wrong I want somebody to tell me but if um if I write anything it's copyrighted at that moment regardless of whether I file a copyright on it or not that's a law okay now if you take that you can reproduce it as long as you don't reproduce it commercial as long as you say well here's who said that I know that um I've

collected uh books for many many years I enjoy reading and in the Last few years I've noticed a trend in publishing that as you read a book now even if it's um even if it's something that is uh about halfway fiction where it talks about subject matter that's published you'll see a footnote in the back of the book you will see the documentation of that so consequently 400 page books about 100 pages of the actual credits for that particular material so uh I don't have any reticence about citing and quoting There I don't believe that

I will be infringement of copyrights laws for those reasons plus they do it too do you have any opinion as to what authorizes to don't know I don't know to me um there are a lot of uh what I call fringed flagged arguments now when you hear me talk like this you probably think that that I'm being derogatory uh not really because I agree I agree I quite agree that it's Inappropriate to put gold Fringe around that flag I say that's wrong my understanding I say that's wrong but that's not the point that's not the

point the point is if you get drugg off into arguing about that you're never going to win you're never going to win what I would suggest and I don't have it on the tip of my tongue but maybe Mark does there is a real lawyer that I respect and Trust by the name of Larry becraft and he has a website where he goes into great detail about what I what I call fringed flag arguments and he does these with the same reverence for the real law that I do he's taken time to explore all of

those you might find the answer to your question there I don't know uh I haven't taken the time uh to actually explore a lot of those because my conclusion is Particularly after seeing things like this is just don't go there stay from those stay with what I know the law says can give me a win Richard I no a real interesting a request for attorney and I was wondering if you might not award yeah the uh the question is why the reference in the pleadings for compensation for time spent Litigating and a reason for that

goes back to my favorite judge judge wner who always awarded the prevailing litigate in his Little People's Court compensation for their time and I think that every person is entitled to be compensated for their time do I have anybody that's been compensated for their time not yet but it's just like the issue of assistance counsel the time maybe hasn't been quite right for it I've had people ask me beg Me will you please go into court and stand up there beside me and present my case for me and I say no unless you're willing to

litigate that question through the Oklahoma Supreme Court to see whether I can or not see somebody is going to have to actually litigate the question to establish the law and so far mainly because of the The rather emergency n uh nature of the things that I've dealt with we haven't litigated the question in other words a person is threatened with some horrible judgment is going to destroy them yeah we ask to be compensated for their time no the judge doesn't give it but you know they're free and they don't want to take the time and

the money to litigate that question particularly on assistance of councel because it would have to be done um I've forgotten the term for it but it's an inter it's an interlocutory in other words you would actually have to say time out we're going to take time out from litigation and we're going to ask the Supreme Court to rule and determine whether I can come in here and speak for you and the situations that my friends have been involved in have been a little bit too compelling to play the game that way I look forward to

the day when somebody will have the luxury and time To litigate two questions whether or not I can appear on behalf of somebody else if they really want me to and the other is whether they can be compensated for their time now they can be compensated for their time in a settlement of course but what I want is for the judge to say okay you spent X number of hours I'm going to get you compensated because you did your own legal work but they they remain to be Litigated questions in other words when I go

to the de annotated I haven't found any Authority for them yet so if it's there it's well hidden I at the let see it's called United States code Ann and in each book there seems to be a little white book pasted at the back of the book and it's all new stuff that they're constantly adding and sometimes there's three or four of these books When you look at the index the index no but it really doesn't have to because the index referenced the title and so what I do and what I recommend that you do

is go under your title first and read the authorities under the title and then go to the the back of the book because I think you'll discover that 95 98% of the time there's no new law there there are just new published authorities where they are further affirming the principles that are Earlier in the book do you go by the the belief ofos that the latest court case that you have that supports what you're doing is the one that you want to use sort of the one that I really want to use is the one

that is nearest to the exact facts of the case that hasn't been reversed by a later Authority because some of the some of the really great authorities are U really Old um trenzy versus pagar was 40 years old but it's good law and if it's good law and it's still there go ahead and cite that excuse me uh the question is uh the question is our authorities before 1936 recognized I have repeatedly cited authorities that were earlier than that uh as far as um uh arguments about uh whether or not we're under martial law or

other things like that Uh probably ought to go to Mr bcra site and pose the question there because I I don't know I haven't found anything that supports that and see that's the way about the about The Fringe around the flag or the expression of a person's name in all capital letters we all we hear those arguments you look at my you look at my pleadings I don't put people's names and capital letters I know it's wrong but show me the court case where it has been fatal to a cause Because somebody did that um

back to your question you said all capitalization we start out in statute with you know case and then come it's upper and lower case at a certain stage and the time you get the court for litigation everything's in capitalization um do you have any particular uh thought or there any manual or anything that tells you how you do this you bet there Is if you look if you go into a law library there there is a federal book of forms and there is a state book of forms you want to file a list pendants you

want to know how to file a list pendant and get it correct look in the book of forms it'll tell you exactly how to do it and I'm here to tell you that I bet you that most attorneys never go to the book of forms because there're know ad alls and if you look in the book of forms a lot Of these things have been actually dispensed with for example you've probably seen many pleadings that start out comes now and C it it's not in the book of forms the people that say here's how to

submit a proper form to the court got rid of that kind of nonsense years ago and yet you still see attorneys of comes now and and the whereas and all that other stuff hey I go to the source go to the fors book look at the fors Book the fors book will tell you exactly letter for letter how to complete that pleading properly all you've got to do is insert the authorities and the facts okay I don't wish to uh take things off course here but uh I have had some discussions with Mr bcft on

some of his aggressive words uh against uh folks in The Patriot movement about gold Fringe and issues of that sort and I've Had a chance to sit down at dinner with him and discuss this a couple of times and um uh I kind of stated my position which is um I can't have a judge telling me what are my unable rights um is a judge the ultimate Arbiter of my rights or not and so what the question really is is the judicial decisions that have come down say against gold Fringe and nom to gear capitalization

issues and so forth uh Were these clarifications of the law or were these judges walking over the law um I think in some cases that still has to be determined but Mr B Craft's point which is a point for this meeting and so forth is these things are not working and people have not won using them so Noble idea correct idea or not with all due respect we better listen to Mr bcft thank you thank you uh well said and another and another U tag along with that and then we're Going to take a break

about 45 minutes isn't it John okay we're going to take a break uh we have a meeting of couple of times a month the jacuz or organization is a due process Club we're not about issues we're about due process and somebody came as a guest to our last meeting that said something that I I wish I'd have said and the group was discussing some points about how we would do a certain thing and he says you Know a problem in the Patriot movement is you work so hard to win the battle you lose the war

that was I wish I'd have said that but but that the point of it is it's just like um I have heard that the last time that the Montana Freedman appeared in court the judge took off his robe removed the flags and says now what's your problem you see they had they had worked so hard to win that little Skirmish Over The Fringe around the flag that they lost big time it's like these people were treading on the advice of somebody that told him all this stuff I've printting a little flag in the corner will

protect you I don't know got them clobber we're we're going to take a break and we'll come back and also U when we come back what we might do is change our format just a little bit we'll only have Um maybe about uh a little bit over an hour before we'll have to to end this marvelous party it's been marvelous for me but in that case what what would what I'd like to do is when you want to ask a question come up and get in the line before the microphone ask on the microphone and

I'll try to answer it quickly and if somebody has not had the opportunity to ask a question let's give those people a chance to ask a question first I got to take off back the Test this is your personal the I'm asking that document I'm going to send you okay can only be read by you CU I don't know okay all right send it send it to this email address right there we just got we've just got an hour we just got an hour and we'll be in jail if we don't leave [Applause] [Music] [Laughter]

well do it got an ID in It prob Eugene all right uh if if anybody wants extra tapes who remembers my middle name all right you can go to the jacuz website there will be an order form there that you can print out if you put Luke on it then it's available for the today's cost I need to know make okay all right just contact to the site Um who would like to ask a question that hasn't had a question answer if you'll step up to the microphone and then others just step right in behind

them we'll try to to get as many questions answered as possible if you have to step in front of Mark don't worry about it that's okay okay getting back to the four legs uh-huh does a corporation qualify for uh only if an officer that Corporation appears and testifies the corporation in my opinion can't it goes back to a case law that's about 200 years old that a corporation is a fiction and jurisdiction cannot be established by fiction and I think you have to have an officer of that corporate ation to have that fourth leg that's

my theory now the question is where does 11th Amendment come in as far as being able to sue a state as far as him being able to sue me as Far as the state being able to sue you the state are him under uh what Authority in law R uh so not you have been sued by the state of Texas color Colorado tax case doesn't matter it's criminal okay uh they have to have their competent witness what they have to have their competent witness somebody has to complain who's complaining the state is even if it's

the people of Colorado there has to be a witness that swears Out the complaint somebody has to say I was injured I was harmed yeah okay what about article 3 section two Clause two where the state is a party the Supreme Court only has jur jurisdiction I'm of the opinion and it's just my opinion there still has to be a complaining party you mean there has to be a plaintiff there has to be a complaining party there has to be somebody that's injured who's injured who's injured here And see there's a problem in our so-called

criminal justice system because we have all these task forces that go out and they go after people as task force wait wait a minute Time Out who who is injured here I mean who who is injured here and it's something that is probably already settled in the law but it's being ignored and so the rich result would be to take a case like yours and take it through the appeals across Criminal Court of Appeals on that very point of where does the government get its authority to put together a task force on drugs and go

out and and in search wait wait a minute who was the injured party here you injured the state I don't think so and if you or somebody that you know of has been subjected to a criminal charge where it's the State against you but there is no witness of an actual crime being committed nobody complaining I think it's one that I would like to be My inaugural appeal to a criminal Criminal Court of Appeals on that basis of wait a minute here you've got all these government task forces out here who is the person that's

injured and it's and it's where our criminal justice system has gone badly arve because there are many reported crimes I've had crimes committed against me probably most of the rest of you have get getting back does a corporation qualify as an injured party in my Opinion no in my opinion no and come on up behind if you have a question and you've not had a chance to ask a question my question would be that what we're dealing with it seems to me is a presumption of law this is the reason why they're able to to

do what they're doing because they presume for some reason that they have uh legal authority to create a you know drug task force or whatever it might be but uh uh to give an an instance that Right now uh this is just I don't if anybody's ever fought one of these parking tickets or not but uh anyway uh asking the the question that uh where do you get your uh you pre you presume that I was the person who parked the vehicle there where is the evidence who was the witness who actually saw where is

the where's the damage you know who did I injure so I asked the question is this is this a C I mean is this a criminal offense or a civil well I finally got an Answer out saying well it's criminal well who did I injure then so where do you get your jurisdiction that presumption is a crime well they sent me back a city ordinance a presumption ordinance that it is presumed that because you're a registered vehicle owner that you are the person who parked the car there so we haven't got that issue resolved yet

but anyway I haven't had an arrest warrant sent out for me yet but my Question is uh where do we stop the presumption of law that they seemingly uh believe that they have because you know my the other thing I had was a not stop not having a driver's license then my was this well you your presumption of law is different than my presumption of law but yet I'm exercising my right and I get arrested for it but that's my question presumption of law they these things these things are like the uh assistance of counsel

and They're like compensation for time while litigating these are probably issues of first impression and what you do is you take somebody that has experience in filing appeals and I've actually won two appeals before the Oklahoma Supreme Court and you take that issue and you take it up to those folks and you ask them for a decision on them and it is probably an issue of first Impression which means that they're they don't have to hear it but they're almost compelled to hear it but what has to happen is somebody like yourself is going to

have to find out what the law is because right now we don't know do we because the Supreme Court has not told us what the law is so we can look it up in the state annotated if you'll look under uh uh bsv State you will find Authority to get vacated a civil I mean not a civil but a u municipal court Judgment against you where there was no witness and appearance okay that's the first step the next step is to extend that to these other questions that you're asking but they're going to have to

go to the body that tells us what the laws mean but um when you or somebody has one like that the thing to do is get it into the appeals process and see if you can make law okay um in my case the IRS had a lean Against my husband they sold the property they paid me for half of the pro gave me half of the proceeds because the lean wasn't against me I sent the check back to the court because I didn't want to make the agreement that it was half my property and it

was sold was I right in sending it back and should I accept it now if it's proper I'm not I'm not sure and like I SED out at the beginning uh I am way Underqualified to answer a lot of these questions but if I had to make a decision what I would do is take that check and endorse it with your name and I would state that you are not waving any rights in accepting that check that you are pres I sent it back I and I went back to and that was in 90 98

I believe because I think that you can sign it you can endorse it All Rights Reserved you're not intending to wave any right you can you want to keep Your rights you want that money because that is actually a prepayment to what a judgment may be but I believe that you would protect if you s if you if you I still go back after them on all these things sure oh absolutely absolutely say you know thanks for the money but by the way I'm reserving all my rights that might help thank you I'm from Kansas

and this is a tax question um regarding the fact if you can cut off some of their tax money Found them to a halt and these uh particularly on property taxes uh these tax notices that go out in Kansas there's no dollar sign on them okay it's uh so many units of something and of course people go in and they um pay dollars okay but there's no contract there to pay MH dollars all right maybe be or Colonels of wheat or sand or whatever uhuh and um then if you don't pay then uh you're a

year behind then they turn around and sell this to the Sheriff the county treasure CH sells this tax lean to the sheriff and they convert it uh to Dollars on that deal but they still uh even when it's paid it's only paid in uh uh whatever units they don't put it all there and then they sign that as having the taxes paid and it would seem to me that this is you know out andout fraud and there ought to be a way that uh we could go after the County Treasurer for committing Fraud uh and

and the sheriff okay because they're conspiring uh to convert something that a bill that was issued that was never issued in a dollar amount and and here they convert it to dollar amount they also say it's paid they don't accept it in a dollar amount yeah I think it's a great case to uh to litigate the question to get it up the Supreme Court to get a decision I think before you uh take the action you're Going to have to um compel them to tell you what can you ask for or demand as a payment

for this obligation that's the that's the core question because you want them to Define what what these units are and it may be true that when that Authority was established they didn't Define it on purpose because as our monetary system changes then it's readily adaptable to whatever people think but what I would do is figure out a way to to contact probably your Attorney general and ask for an attorney general's opinion and if the Attorney General won't ask you can actually uh you can actually go to a federal court for an advisory opinion you can

actually file a case in federal court and the the question is tell me what you can ask or demand as payment for this obligation tell me exactly what you can ask or demand if you have that then you have a basis to litigate the claim okay and we have one other thing In Kansas there is a a law 16111 that was taken from 1893 but it's there on the statute books today and um it says for all executions and judgments and so forth that U those will be made in U United States legal tender or

gold and silver and no contract to the contrary withstanding now this is law in Kansas and it would go back to this tax thing MH uh how would you U use that in terms of formulating what you're talking about Because uh they didn't ask for any money the law says this is the way it is so why is there any obligation there uh on anyone uh you know to uh uh pay anything you know well you don't know what you're being asked to pay you don't have a definition of it and you'd handle it the

same way here in Oklahoma it's uh it the the money it has to be in lawful money has to be lawful money but they don't tell you what lawful money is well in our case they do See yeah but uh what what they do yeah that's what I'm saying Yeah okay or silver or but again you have to start with some court that will make a ruling and determination of what that what that actually must be is is that the only thing that can be asked or demanded in payment of this type of obligation and

when you have that Court's advisory opinion then you have a basis for an action and you have a chance to really Make some law but that that's how I would do it is I would go to this to the attorney general first and say tell me what can be asked or demand or tell me what can be paid if if anything but this and satisfaction of this judgment and if they don't answer go into federal court for an advisory opinion okay you have any questions there my name is Bruce Gore uh there's a group in

U in Florida and they are uh involved in the right to Travel now they make the connection uh as an example on the driver's license M uh and on the insurance and on the uh registration of the car now they show when they take the police officer up there and asking questions they say can I can I force you to have a driver's license officer and he says no he says now if I can't force you you can't force me then how come we have a driver's License and the question being is that the legislators

who created the fourth branch of government which is the motor vehicle department whatever they call what I mean whatever they call them uh are able to go in and make these laws and say these are laws when they are not laws and they can't connect it with the constitution in any way shape or form but they get away with it because they say it's a law and pretty soon it's like uh Bob said they get the presumption and Everybody presumes and say take take the bull by the horn that they can do whatever they want

to do to us now what I'm what I want to ask you is this since they've already got it all worked out there I would like to not take it individually because I don't I don't think you could do enough of it you know to go up win your case and so you're Sovereign one and and they don't bother you you know that happens but how would we go to the the annotated as an example And go there and get the the material we need to show that they never had the right to do any

of those things they be proving negative and what and how you approach that is that's an issue of first impression and this an issue of first impression means that the United that the Supreme Court has not made a reallying a determination well let me let me say I got I got 26 Pages the gentleman's gone I got 26 pages of all these law all these law cases Supreme Court saying that no state entity can force you to have Force Insurance proof of registration or a driver's license now I've got all these question cases like what

you use M now how would I take that to say uh in the state of Oklahoma get everybody involved realizing that we lost our freedoms and they can stop anytime they want to and do anything they want to do because they're out of shape and they presume all these all these things do you think this annotated Uh these books we'd find all these laws in here to be able to go and attack this issue how you have to do it is on the defensive you have to wait until they arrest you charge you driving without

a license then you support your argument and you take it up to the Supreme Court and get a Supreme Court's determination on it well we've already got those in these laws already well no no no no no you need it in your case you need to see if you can replicate those Laws on your own behalf well okay going back to your words again if you knew that there was a law being violated MH a law being violated and it was actually his treason in which it is uh aren't you supposed to uh to uh

uh report that um you see where I'm going at yeah you can you can report it particular if you're the victim the the question there is if you know that there is a crime or a pattern of crime do you have an Obligation to report that and you do because if you don't you stand those crimes um but as far as as far as what I believe your question is Bruce you're going to have to have somebody that's arrested for driving without a license actually litigate their claim based on those authorities through the through the

Oklahoma Supreme Court and they will get relief either based on Those or because the Supreme Court makes new laws all right let me say it this way we probably look we'd have any problems finding people who who who are driving either suspended driver's license or whatever that have actually take them and made them uh where there they can be robbed and plunder all day long because they really when they take him down there they gone back to law again if it was not a law and know if it was not a crime I mean to

drive a car Before why is it a crime now see that's the law the law says you can't make something that was not a crime a crime you follow my my uh thoughts yeah there has to be there has to be an authority for charging with the crime okay Don if we can follow that pattern why couldn't we go into and bring that all up that's what I'm saying into where into the legislature because that's where see they didn't do it they basically they created this fourth branch of government And then the fourth branch of

government start making their little deals and their little tyrants get in there and they all think this is their Kingdom we know that the uh the legislature is not your Venue they're not where you go to perfect your rights but they're the ones that's allowing it to go on and there are trustees they're supposed to be well they claim we are lawmakers you've got to take it to the courts spre and then what Well they're going to find it frivolous okay well would that be I mean on this driver's license comment are here's the best

place to comment I haven't had a driver's license since 84 MH and of course huh oh okay well I haven't had a driver's license since 1984 and of course we've had our hassles but I look at this driver's license thing if I if I apply for a driver's License I have entered into a contract with the state to be Rule and regulated is that right or not right it sounds reasonable but here's the thing that we as Patriots friends of Patriots sympathizers with Patriots need to remember is don't use all your energy fighting a battle

if you lose the war and uh I was asked last night if I file a tax return and I do do I do that because I think I have to or need to or whatever no I only do it for one reason I'm afraid of what they will do to me as a person with substantial property interests if I don't I do it purely out of fear now I agree and have even in pleadings embraced all of the arguments the arguments that you see in the uh project Toto but yet I don't want to subject

myself to the the wrath of these evildoers so I file the tax return in um the annotated code I think We were discussing this earlier you were voicing the opinion that uh the state can't be a damaged party not without a a um qualified witness and uh so many times I think in in all the different millions of uh charges and cases that go through the courts uh this is this seems to be one focal point that perhaps we could have some effect in that area bringing this issue up or a recent issue because the

state is is is representing itself as a damaged Party yeah in in my opinion the state cannot uh particularly over the past eight years the so-called department of justice has gone completely Haywire with uh everything from uh Waco as a perfect example of it who did those people hurt they just didn't like them they just didn't like they fabricated they fabricated to get the warrant they didn't have jurisdiction to Issue the warrant but in our examination and when I say our our government's examination of it they talk about who fired the first shot and and

what actually caused the fire that's not important to me what's important to me is to ask the question why were they there in the first place in fact fabricate evidence those are the questions that the people in positions of authority are Avoiding they keep talking about who fired the first shot who actually set you know I'm I don't care to me that's irrelevant I want to know why they were there and unless I as a citizen went to them and say you know they've got guns over that compound and every time I drive by it

they take pot shots at me I'm a witness now I'm complaining now that gives them the authority to get the a warrant based on my witness and go there so yes it is a terrible problem Because you have government posing itself as a victim on behalf of whoever I don't know and who has been hurt who's been hurt the little people yeah my turn yes okay I had a comment for the travel guy one is the very first case that dealt with driving versus uh um whatever the the guys set up their case uh they

set up their case they stipulated to all kinds of stuff that weren't true now what he said was you Set your case up I'm working with Pat Patton trying to set up a case the same with Parks when she she did her deal with uh the equal or the uh affirmative action I can't remember what it was where she was on the bus they set that case up if we want to win cases we've got to set them up ourselves so that all of the facts support us and I think that's what you were saying

earlier exactly exactly you've got to empower that Court to make the decision that you Want to make for you okay now I got three questions one if if a person were to fail to appear the judge issues a summary judgment could that person later attack that judgment as void absolutely absolutely unless they've got that fourth leg on there they've got to have they've got to have the jurisdiction because it's just like the surgeon operating there's got to be the tumor there to remove okay otherwise it would Be a fraud on its face okay these these

next two deal with me personally IRS agents acts outside of their Authority MH I take them to State Court the state the US District Attorney I assume would then try and get it into to Federal Court do you know of a way to uh put your pleadings in so that you can prevent that or is there a way I don't have um specific experience with that but I know that the United States Supreme Court made a Decision uh in the fall of uh 19 I believe it was fall of 98 and what they in effect

said was that no person who acts outside the scope of their Authority is entitled to representation or compensation for judgment or any help whatsoever you're out there on your own if you work for the government you get the rules you follow the rules you don't follow the rules it's not the government's problem it's your problem as a person that's a Supreme Court case I'm sorry that I don't know the name of it but it's a it's a recent case and it's good authority that would be in your pleading s oh absolutely you plead according you

plead that you plead that case as your authority to proceed all right the last question was on a summary judgment for a 2039 summons to get books and Records I had a case where the US attorney got up talked to the judge the the IRS agent entered a declaration I Never had the chance to cross-examine I told my side of the story the other attorney told his side of the story as far as I could tell about you're saying no evidence was entered on their part yet they they uh ruled against me is my best

option to then file a new case you said collaterally attack in the federal court in the in the federal you have to do it by motion it's I think it's a 60e but I would definitely do that and You can actually rely on Vern Holland's recent case where the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals actually ruled for the little people and they said okay the IRS said that this person Ed this but they didn't put any supporting documents on the record in the form of evidence there were no witnesses there was nothing to show that this

person was actually involved in this taxable um activity and and they have to Meet minimum evidentiary standards to actually establish a tax obligation uh that was posted um by Dan met yeah I read it that's that's the case that you want to rely on not because it's exactly like yours because it's similar enough because it involves the same core issue when the IRS took that person's property they did it without first establishing that that person was a taxpayer owing a tax because they can't just say you owe A tax we're going to take your property

to pay it they had to prove it and they didn't do that in my opinion that case is one even though it was only remanded for further action because if they come with evidence now o that they withheld that they withheld that in the first round so there's no they have no evidence they have no way to prove that that was a valid taking I 60 motion would not get it before a new judge no it wouldn't Okay cuz I filed a 60 motion and he denied it so then I had to appeal okay and

is it is it an appeal now still an appeal right now okay that's just wait that's the RO route that you have to take but um uh if you haven't amended your appeal brief I would do so and I would actually cite that case oh I can still amend it cuz the the time limits are all done for filing the paperwork I'd amend it let the other side strike it if they Can uh Richard you've talked about evidence and and affidavits you've talked about evidence and as far as affidavits could you explain a little bit

I think there's like three three areas that enter evidence into the there there are three ways to uh to testify an affidavit a deposition or appearing and testifying under under oath on a record those are the three ways that you Testify uh testimony uh by affidavit or deposition can be challenged so that's where the other side if they have sense enough to file an affidavit which they usually don't you want to subpoena that witness and question them under oath and on the record but um if you see somebody that does their paperwork right and it's

unusual but if they do their paperwork right they're going to win it's just that they usually don't do It right so if you were investigating a judgment or summary judgment you would be looking for an affidavit as part of that file or a deposition yeah if you look in that file if you look in that file and there's no affidavit no deposition and nobody appeared and testified on the record that's a void because because there was not a competent witness then secondly what can I be found in contempt of in a court Arena Okay what

what makes contempt I believe that the Supreme Court has has determined that there are three summary contempts now you can be you can be found in contempt for any number of things but it's that summary contempt that is the uh the great Hazard of entering a courtroom and that's where the judge says I'm going to send you to jail the Supreme Court has ruled that there are three summary contempts where the judge can say okay you had go to Jail without benefit of counsel and without benefit trial and that's Disobedience by an officer of the

court so in other words if the court orders you to do something you better do it because if you don't follow court order they be found in summary contempt another is um obstreperous behavior before a jury trial so if there's a jury trial going on and you do something to disrupt that jury trial that judge hased to Jail the other is where you have agreed to testify in exchange for immunity from prosecution and then you refuse to testify judge can send you right to jail for that do not pass go but those are the only

three things it's a Hollywood notion misconception that that judge can lawfully put you in jail if you if if the judge doesn't like you or you act or any other reason those are the only things that they can put you directly in jail for Texas judges think they're from Hollywood they they they do that all over but I'm here to tell you and as we discovered in these pleadings of real cases the tight is turning it's just turning a little slowly but it is turning the more the information gets out the more people are impowered

to act the more it will turn but um there's an actual case case and and I'll apologize in advance but there was an actual case I believe it was in California where a man stood in a Hearing and and said to the judge you son of a judge put him in jail went up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court said no you know don't do that I mean you're an adult if if you know if somebody can call you a name and ruin your day that's your problem don't put people in jail for

that anymore excuse me heile inter appe to get out jail was Being or was he in jail time I don't know the details he probably was not in jail all that time because among other things it could bond out yeah I really don't have any uh questions to ask but I the lady uh that uh brought up the driver's license Point uh caused me to think that possibly I might have some information that would be interesting to you people who are who are into that movement of driver's license at www.ps sl. Psas.org you can buy

insurance uh which does not require a driver's license you they will insure you no matter whether you have a driver's license or not uh it's is also a patriot type insurance company it's a religious organization and so what you is you buy a membership and then uh you pay so much for your car I'm not going to into all the details because it's all there on the website for you to see and then uh You assessed a a the whole pool of members which is around 10,000 members right now is assessed on a quarterly basis

for the damages that the pool has sustained so uh uh I just gotten into it myself uh my my son just turned 18 years of age and of course you all know what the insurance uh it comes to for a kid 18 years of age uh he's paying about $23 a month for full coverage insurance uh on a n on an 89 Honda so you know it's a great bargain to start Off with uh there are some people here that are besides myself that are also into that and so I think Debbie back there is

into it she knows all about it and there's some more around here that know every bit about as much as I do and some more but there's also another side issue to that and that is this when the cop stops you you got no driver's license uh then you got no insurance in his eyes and he alls you to jail for that I think you'll have some fun with It what's the website again www.ps.org has anyone been to court you know of with using that I do not have any of that information no but I

do know it's it's valid uh in in the in the several any of the state it's valid insurance in all states so thanks Richard excuse me if uh if you may have covered this and I missed it But U and fortunately it's been a long time since I've had any dealings with the court but the last time I did I was told that if I showed up at Court without an attorney that I would be arrested you know that I could not this was in Oklahoma County and I could not represent myself I would go

to jail yeah uh there's still a lot of that going around uh people that are acquainted with the juse organization it's not for your benefit but but you Know there is an initiative called jail for judges and even even though the tide is turning there's still a lot of misconduct but there's probably always going to miss be misconduct until there's judicial accountability now we do have the Oklahoma form of that initiative on the table by back there and would invite you to pick up a copy of that because until judges that do things like that

are taken before a jury Of ordinary people who are not lawyers and not judges and uh get their chance to understand real Justice that's going to go on yeah Richard I'm getting back to U these void judgments uh how do we go through our cases to pick out things that you know to get some kind of an idea whether we had some void judgments and like I think one time you're mentioning certain criteria has to be Met to before a valid complaint can be filed and to give the court jurisdiction what you want to do

is look in that file and see if there is an affidavit a deposition or a minute record where somebody was testifying on the court before a court reporter if there are none of those things in that then that's how you begin to launch an attack but also at the same time you look for rules that were not followed just like the Arizona case this was a Joint several liability judgment that it was abolished in Arizona so what you do is you look for everything that was procedurally wrong every jurisdictional failing and then you sue them

what about uh like if they come to court and bringing see on copies or copies of some uh promissary note or copies of trying to get a quiet title copies of different stuff uh I think you mentioned something have the originals had to be there well uh Not only the originals have to be there but there has to be a witness to testify as to their meaning if there was never any witness they were never before the court if you have access to Federal uh rules of civil procedure look at real 7h and real 7h

is actually the basis for State rules that are almost Universal that averments to fact which appear only in pleading are not before the court so it doesn't matter how high they stack That if it's only an attorney submitting that it's not before the court for the Court's consideration Federal rule 7h and you're saying if a complaint is filed by an attorney and not the actual complaintant it's not a it's not a case at that point not a case it's not a case at that point and it never will be a case until a witness appears

without that witness appearing it never became a case remember the law Didn't we read that law we read that law we know that that's a law because we know where we got it from want make mention about that uh PSA ASL uh the insurance I've been a member of that Organization for 5 years I have uh two teenage sons and when you look at the insurance that costs with conventional Insurance it is astronomical especially when you have an accident my son had an accident and believe it or not he ran into an Attorney's uh wife

or husband and so uh but this PSAs L it does meet the Oklahoma financial responsibility Act and the Damage that my son did to the other car was 8,000 bucks and the organization paid off on it it's 250 bucks a year or for each well it's only 250 bucks for your vehicle the lifetime that you own the vehicle and then it's 500 uh bucks a year no just 500 bucks period uh for a lifetime membership so it's really a good deal and uh and they Do pay off and it's way we can help each other

across the nation and get ourselves out this hopefully this Babylonian in uh ripoff and and juse will appreciate that nice advertising contribution from that organization another question let's have another question let's talk about something let's insult lawyers or judges let's do something well did you hear about the Lawyer who um when you were talking about um uh determining whether a case has been reversed or not were you talking about the process of shepher isation is that the process that you use yeah you can do that there's even um the Key West digest is another good

place to go but as you're looking in the state annotated uh shepherdz is always a good idea but the state annotated effectively does the shepher isation for you because If you look in the annotated and if you look in the addendum to the annotated you learn whether or not the Supreme Court has decided that they're that that's not going to be the law anymore jeopardizing is don't make it any longer than it has to be you see these long long pleadings like uh like this thing here uh there's no point in repeating yourself if you've

already made a point in Law nobody should expect any judge to read a long brief how would you like to be a judge this about close as I get to ever being sympathetic with judgment how' you like to be a judge and spend your Friday afternoon looking at a stack of briefs that tall I don't care if you're fle Bailey they're not going to read that stuff they might get a clerk to kind of glance at it to see if there's something in There but I don't believe that any judge religiously reads those 300 Page

briefs most judges that know their stuff and and this is true even in Oklahoma County which is not exactly the Bastion of Justice in the world we'll we'll chastise attorneys for fing briefs that are too long they I've heard hey hey buddy 30 pages this is 60 Pages I'm tossing this you refile it but the point I wanted to make there is there's no point in being overly long Once you have stated a point in law and supported it with authority if uh if you file a and uh and whenn avoid judgment can that be

refiled by the opposing party no it h it relies on the uh statute of limitations a void judgment is not a n prunk there are actions that are N prunk N prunk means that you go back to the date before the judgment and you pull it forward to the date this one would be a nunk for tunk Because it's not actually vacating a judgment it's vacating a summary judgment so they can go back to the day before that summary judgment now then if the judgment is vacated if it is a judgment that's vacated it's the

statute of limitations and that's one of the things that you can really use powerfully because the statute of limitations may have run out you get it vacated you're That's a done deal you never have to worry about that again it's done it's dead they should have done it right the first time it's not your problem so I guess one strategy would be to wait until the statute of limitations has run out and infile your voice yeah which which in a case of a which in a case of a personal injury is two years in Oklahoma

let's see and then my last question was uh you use a lot of uh Federal and non- Oklahoma sites in your cases um is that kosher I mean do we have any problem with those being accepted by the Oklahoma courts uh no actually in the in the case of the federal uh I think the principle is called comy uh anytime you can site a federal Authority particularly if it's a federal Authority that's determined in your circuit it's it's Reliable but even if it's a site from another state if it's a persuasive or a compelling argument

why not throw it in because you may be making some new law I expect at some point in time that there's going to be publication on something that I've done and your purpose is to persuade now you do want to go with your Authority for that Court to act and if you come in court in Oklahoma and you cite a Kentucky statute as your reason for Being there you have haven't stated a claim upon which relief can be granted but if you state your Oklahoma authority to be there and then collaterally mention this interesting case

in Kentucky that really is very similar to this and here's what that Court decided that can be persuasive to the court Richard not so long ago I went to the county clerk's office to see what might be filed and uh I had no notice of this Instrument but it was called an abstract of judgment would you care to elaborate on that s I'd never seen one before and it had a 20-year lifespan I don't know I I wish I could Don I'd have to research it because uh it's a it's a pretty strange animal because

in Oklahoma uh judgments have a five-year life if they're not perfected within five years they're latched and so if you get a judgment against somebody and you haven't Perfected in 5 years you be better beat it down to the courthouse and refile it because it's going to be la as far as that uh I would suggest that you check that out at the law library and see if you can run it down because that sounds like somebody's imagination that spent a lot of time reading about Ro v Wade and never learned anything about procedure the

question I have is is is a trust uh the same as a person or is it The same as a corporation as far as uh damaged in in a court case well I think a trust can be damaged um and uh does have standing but only through an authorized representative and you see the same way through a corporation who's the officer here who's the representative party that actually will will suffer the damage and if you're a beneficiary of a trust and you're suffering damage even though it may be damag that may not occur for many

Years then in my opinion you're the damaged party but but the trust itself wouldn't be damaged it would be a damage to to that individual if for instance the trust owns a piece of property and and in a court proceeding they back it back around and and claim that an individual um becomes liable so they transfer the assets of a trust into an individual to claim a judgment against That individual they transfer the assets into the name of an individual they Avid the trust right they Avid the trust but in the name of individual sounds

like a great opportunity to make some law because um uh trusts are something that I would not claim to be an expert on but I believe that if you have put a spendthrift clause in that trust they can't do that and that's the key to it and see a lot of these Things uh it's just a few few little words here or there that make all the difference in the world and I think if that claw if that trust had a spendthrift clause in it they can't do that and um the reason for that is

there are certain protections that go to a higher level and the Spen Clause is intended to protect the beneficiaries of the trust but if there's no spendthrift clause in there then it does not give the court a reason to believe that it Was actually constructed to protect beneficiaries and I think that that's what you need to look for to see if it has a spent trip clause in it I've kind of hesitated to come forth to ask this question because it's uh kind I don't really have it well formulated myself but um we recently with

this is all very new a a summary judgment that it would appear is Void in uh in law and uh I'm wondering who to sue uh exactly um in this particular case we notified the judge before he uh even um got started that he had no oath or could he prove that he was lawfully elected we have that situation where he went ahead and made the Judgment without any response uh we didn't appear in the court uh because we didn't feel like There was really an action to come forth but we put an affidavit in

uh I think my question is we would we think we would sue the party that brought the action forth but uh can you split the cause of action and Sue the judge separately in one case and then in regarding this one case and then sue the the uh plaintiff this was a quiet title action without any um they tried to quiet title Without any proof of ownership so who can you sue uh split in action in that sort of thing or uh when you does it have to all stay together and you have to try

to present two coures of action in in this one how I how I would do that is you you sue the beneficiary of the Judgment for relief of the Void judgment you sue the judge under 4218 for acting in clear absence of all jurisdiction the beauty of that is Anytime you're in a civil rights venue you don't have to prove a single dollar worth of damage damages are totally nominal in civil rights it's whatever jury will give you and what's 42 that's your federal title where you actually uh sue for conspiracy against rights and you

have a you have a 14th Amendment right not to be deprived of money or property without due process of law and I don't see any due process there it's a mockery a due Process but that's not called a splitting of action then well because I've heard I don't know this much about all this stuff but I've heard you can't uh split an or split an action is that right no you can split them all over the place look at treny versus pagliaro treny versus pagaro does collaterally site another point of law it's very important that

you can sue over the very same action in different courts as long as you can establish that Other Court's authority to act you can sue all over the place but in that case you sue it you have to to to split it unless you can prove that that judge was actually acting in concert with that party and I don't think appearance is enough my case then goes to federal court whether State you have two cases one against the judge for violation M you take him into the FED okay I I have a question which is

same thing because that's my wife asking and um but it Involves uh this judge and the clerk of court not having an oath as required by law this judge uh appointed this clerk in 1986 and she never had an oath on file as required by the Kansas law and that's a felony and and this judge or this clerk then uh three years ago swore this judge into office okay and and so we noticed them by affidavit within the case and um this judge went ahead and Found default we never went because they're in the court

there as she pointed out but by default uh went ahead and quieted title and also as Paula pointed out there was never anything in the original petition to ever show uh uh that they had ownership all they did was State they had ownership but they had no documentation no affidavit no nothing the petition was dead on its face and we also filed that in an affidavit form Into this case but the point is can we come back against this clerk I was thinking it would be easier against the clerk than against the judge and U

file a collateral Act action to sue her because she's not there oh very definitely very so but can we how do we do that in the court where she claims to be clerk when there's no clerk to take you don't sue her in the court you s her sue her in the federal sue her in federal too but you sue you Sue in that court for relief of that judgment and it sounds like it's a good I think it there's two points of power are here and that's the clerk and the sheriff for law enforcement

to enforce whatever judgments come out so if you can destroy the clerk or take the jurisdiction away from the Sher or whoever then you've stopped all their actions anything that shows a jurisdictional failing is sufficient to Do that well unfortunately I think we're done as our time is about to run out I really appreciate uh this opportunity uh I hope you take something away from the meeting that uh can help you uh maybe inspire you give you a chance to win uh we're kind of all in this together that's us against a corrupt establishment and

how do we get your help uh do you have my card with my uh name my name phone number and email address call me or email me and uh tell Me the circumstances and I'll look at your case and uh we'll discuss it from there send complaints or something like that excuse me complaints you to what I'd actually have to have is is the is the file uh file not necessarily the file exclusive exclusive of those tons of paperwork I am interested in files to the extent that we can show a failing like no affidavit

no witness okay that g that gives you your Open door to take that thing out get rid of it get your damages back from them it happens Thank [Applause] you Rich I like to make a quick little statement part I'm at the uh rules of us having this room because they've asked us to restack the chairs also pick up any Trash it might be around your chair they'll help us clean up so we can check Out when we're through so just do a little bit app thanks a lot chairs e e