HISTÓRIAS DA FÓRMULA 1, com Michael Schmidt e Tom Clarkson #podcast #pod360 #pelaspistaspodcast

[Music] he e ch forter he's the one that carries the glasses and he keeps saying telling me that I'm the old one but you are the old one but well please forgive my lack of Portuguese but the one bit I thought I understood then was Harry Potter looks like Harry Potter nice to having show again it's a big Pleasure one more time the pleasure is all mine thank you for having me thank you Michael yeah thank you for the invitation really yes enjoy being here so let's start in the beginning why did you choose to

be journalists how did you become a former one journalist how was the beginning what was your story how did it start Story I mean I didn't want to become a journalist honestly I wanted to do something in Formula One and that was Probably the easiest job of all so you were you were slow as a driver not good enough as an engineer and and maybe not clever enough as a team principle I don't know so you started as a Formula 1 fan yes as a formula one fan now how old were you uh 11 uh

it was the British Grand Prix 1970 the British Grand Prix I I was a huge soccer fan you know in 1970 Brazil might remember you became World World Cup winner Mexico yeah in Mexico exactly and Uh I I I liked when that was on the program in Germany we didn't have a live broadcast of Formula 1 because Germany they didn't have a driver at the time and uh you saw sometimes the highlights I always liked it but I never could imagine that I watch a race for 2 hours so then I don't know why there

was this uh the British Grand Prix was live on Austrian TV which I could see because we were living near Munich so in the south of Germany you could see Austrian TV and For Austria that was the the big summer fairy tale you know yoken RN leading the championship and they had all rac's life so I watched this race and it was a very particular race because the big opponent of yoken was Jack braam and joken he looked like a yeah like a pop star you know he was smoking and Jack bream looked like an

accountant not like a racing driver and me as a as a boy you took party obviously of the guy who thought has the worst cars me because And and rent was in the best car as well which you could see even as an outsider the Lotus 72 was completely different to all the other cars so anyway so I kept my fingers crossed for Jack bream and the guy on Austrian TV already told before that in Monte Carlo bream lost the win in the last corner of the last lap so I don't know when 20 laps

before the end breev went away and was easy to win this Ground Prix two corners before the end I thought it's slow motion all Of a sudden Jack Bradman was slow and he was running out of fuel and R really on the last few meters overtook him and won the Grand Prix and although I was a bit angry I thought what a what a sport this is you know because you can't tell until the end of the of the race that that it's over and and that that really from that day onwards I was Formula

1 fan and then the the journalism came came later as I said I had some friends um who were journalists and when I started to go to Races which was so your first race was the British gry no on television that was television only yeah the first time I was at track was in 76 in Monza because my father had to do something there close and I I really was urging him come on this moner is very close we we have a look there and then I went there and that was the race when Nikki

came back after this accident what a race to go to for your first one no but we were only on Friday in practice Because my father had we had to go home then and I remember it was really raining like hell and you how old were you at that time it was 17 so we were sitting on the main grand stand and the first practice nothing happened nobody went out only in the last two minutes I think rol strin was the first driver I've ever saw in the bream Alpha Romeo running down this main straet

with an incredible speed you know you could see this spray for kilometers and that was Already crazy and then in the afternoon everybody was driving and the one thing I remember I told this story a few times to Nikki was the the pit Lan was more or less empty because everybody was obviously around Ferrari everybody wanted to see him you know he was razon who was it no there was three drivers because was Nikki regon and then Enzo Ferrari because he thought Nikki is finished he tookan on board so and and and all the journalists

were standing Around and photographers around this Ferrari pits and the whole rest was empty so then drivers were going out so when James Hunt went out he was the big rival of Nikki uh people were booing then I think first of the Ferrari drivers was reyan everybody was cheering then ratoni and then in the end Nikki came first time coming out after the accident and I thought then the thing would explod no everybody stood up very silently and was giving standing Ovations was very quiet and you you you felt the moment everybody felt this is

a historic moment a guy who was six weeks before he was almost dead going out and that was my first yeah contact Direct contact and then as I said I went from 77 onwards I went as a fan but I had friends who worked in the business and they asked me can you write a little bit a little story here or can you do some pictures because in the beginning I did pictures as well and in ' 81 then I Found in Munich a daily newspaper which took me regularly on board as a freelancer but

they said okay we take this if you find the story interesting we take it if not it's your it's your problem then you don't get any money so and uh were your pictures any good I I doubt so but I I stopped it because I was R did you did you keep them all you have them no not anymore you what you sold it you not sold it I gave it away to to somebody who wanted To have it and and and I I stopped it actually because in 82 I was ran over three times

within almost ran over by a car three times by Formula One cars no no I because I did also at the time Formula 2 touring cars uh sports cars and the the first one was a big crash in fron formula two race at probably yeah yeah at at the start you know and we were standing on just on a bank uh and there was a big mess in somewhere in the field and T T I don't Know whether you he he was hit by somebody on he crashed belgum driver yeah he crashed just in front

of us the car was broken in half and we just jumped on the other side of the bank and when we came back there was a rear suspension on this bank and we we we we we saw how how close it was the next one was then on um on the nbor ring th000 km race and there was a guy in the Midfield and normally you know a th kilom race it was a flying Start um you wouldn't think that people risk anything but there was a a German driver in a in a shitty car

um they had a problem with the brake balance and we were standing there you know focusing the field coming close to you and I could see that one and it was the old Nur ring you know with the two long Straits then there was this this South corner and then there were two parallel uh straights and you were in the grass completely Unprotected of course before you thought what would you do if somebody comes and the only chance was to run behind that um guard rail which was separating the two stays so the last thing

I saw was a red car in the middle of the field sideways crashing into this barrier and then I took one picture which was out of focus because obviously I was already running and then I I just remember I saw it with one eye that this car was coming so quickly towards me and I just made it And six people were were hit three of them really badly injured so six photographers there was a real mess there and there was a guy who was doing pictures of this scene and he sent me later on one

picture and when you see the picture you would say 100% he must have been hit the car was just in front of me and I just made it yeah wow and then the the next thing was reanu losing in Taran Corner the the front wheel and he was coming towards us again we all Laid down and then he was going into the tire stack and taking all the gravel with him and once he stopped all the gravel went up in the air and there was a big advertising boat and the gravel went on the boat

and then it rained down on us that's the only thing I remembered and when I when I when I stood up this car was really in front of us in the middle of the and I had the wrong lens much too long and I was so pissed off because by the time I changed the lens Anu was already out of the car like the C and then I said three times that's too much like the cameraman Mexico racing the start the CR was so close exctly yeah yeah and what's your story well M so if

your first Formula 1 driver you saw was Rolph stoman on the track Yes mine was Rene Anu 1983 British Grand Prix my dad took me and my brother to only race day so the first Formula One car I saw was Anu was on pole and just coming On the formation lap and I was just from it was a Eureka moment I just saw a red Ferrari that white helmet coming towards me we were on the outside of beckets which back then was just a quick right-hander like that just fell in love with the sport there

and then made friends with a marshall at the end of the race cuz back then the dve top three drivers used to to come around on a flatbed truck to wave to the crowd and my Marshal friend took me right up to The edge of the track and Prost one it Nelson I think your dad was second actually and I just remember these guys just passing as as close as you are to me Christian and me being all struck by them and then um yeah and so we then went and bought Autos Sport magazine the

next day to read about the following week to read about the race so every Thursday it was Auto Sport and and motoring news what Wednesday or Tuesday I don't remember that was Wednesday but So then but that's so that's why I started reading autop Sport and then actually I wrote to Auto Sport while I was at University saying um can I come and work for you and they wrote back and said no so they didn't at least they wrote back yeah true and then uh cuz there was a track in the UK near where I

was at Uni called Castle Kon oh my god do you remember castle of really quick no did youer yeah I did Quick TR oh you did I didn't what for 3 yeah formul 3 oh my that must have been so fast no truckton was the the quick track [ __ ] was anyway so I wanted to do some reports for them as a sort of while I was at Uni and they said no so um anyway once I left uni then went and B my least favorite tracks in the UK was Croft and Castle Kum

I couldn't get my head around these two tracks okay what what were your favorites let's put a positive spin on that uh Silverstone Bren's hatch brand hatch GP both well the big one yeah the long one um I loved Silverstone the the Silverstone over here yeah uh well the what spec of Silverstone were you though the not not this one over here but the one that does um you had Bridge did you have bridge in your day yeah yeah yeah um like the one that used they were from the late 90s till the 2015 or

something like that you know and what about oon Park ulton Park I like ton Park Cascades but um I won Many race F3 there most of them maybe three or four races but I don't know I just bren's hatch was that turn one and that it was just special U what which tracks have you so F3 you did them all right F3 and f3000 yeah but to me in England uh donton and Alton Park Al Park yeah I like the two best ones I always like donon very much both like the short version and and

cran of Curves everything was was really cool there about that incredibly smooth I think It's the smoothest track that I have ever raced on and the funny thing it's not well you're talking smooth back in the80s yeah yeah well not ' 80s '90s okay well I drove there recently maybe five six years ago still so smooth at track incredible but do they repave Donnington every x amount of years or I I'm Smo in the early 90s he just drove it all I do remember you remember the British Grand Prix nearly moved to Donnington about 10

years no I raced There in Formula One no I I know in in '93 in 93 but that it was going to be a permanent move from Silverstone to Donnington but it they ran out of money and it never happened what year was that sort of must have been 10 15 years ago yeah something like that yeah so there we go that was Rene Al new I thank Rene Al new for my my passion for for Formula One now one track that like it's nothing special to drive on but it's really iconic and and I

feel that we're not Racing there anymore not in the in the original version is hackenheim M it was so unique because you had the stadium part as soon as you left the stadium it seemed that you were in a different dimension like you went into the forest you did your deal in the forest and then you came back to the stadium you ran the stadium and then off you go again that was one of the tracks that I played so much on the video games before moving to Europe so when I was Young playing on

the computer whatever which was amazing and then when I got to Europe they they shut down the whole bit over there you know uh it's the one track that I would love you probably really good at The Stadium section from all that practice hence you got your Podium right yeah but I would have loved to drive to have driven the big track I mean the speeds over there must have been crazy and but you know when you come from Germany There's only one track which is a big noing and ham was always seen as the

easy track okay unfortunately I've never seen a ground pre on the no gring but I saw Formula 2 races and 1,000 kilm races your father won the 1,000 km race I think we've stook yeah in a what BMW M1 the big one the big BMW M1 no it's it's a white one which it had the design of Ning on it oh um but talking about my dad how did the relationship start with you and my dad because you guys are so Close yeah I mean as I said regularly I started in ' 81 and then

because I was based in Munich at the time I lived in Munich I was at University there and um I I the the daily where I started was a Munich paper and for BMW that was important you know that what what was written in there and um so I did one or two uh interviews with Nelson was nothing special and then I thought okay how was he in the beginning well you know I I was young uh Had no experience in in this business uh and then in those days it was not like today when

you wrote something as a German you know nobody could read apart from Germans so you had to be two or three years in the business until people started to get confidence that this guy is serious he he doesn't write stupid things things because if you had written stupid things in those days it would have come out sometime because the agencies would have picked up and then It would have been around the world but it's not like today you know when it's in the internet and everybody can read it even the German because you you do

Google translate or something like that and then you have the story so it's was much more difficult to to get no that the drivers or you can you get the trust of the drivers the trust of the drivers so as of course when Nelson gave me the interviews but it was nothing special as I said and then I thought to get a bit Better access to the people you got to go to a test in those days I mean there were three journalists at a test and it was one in RAR I remember it was

at the winter 8283 and the free journalist was Pino alevi from Getta it was Roi Bera of course and then maybe one of the French Johnny Lees of of liip and that was it so when you were there that was already an exclusive Circle but there were only three or four journalists because that's what the teams permitted or because Nobody else was interested in going yeah and people I don't know maybe the the the papers didn't have the money or didn't want to let them go uh it was was was not normal to go to

a test and I went to that test and um I think there were four teams testing among them was uh bre BMW and the BMW people said to me come to the no Hotel there there are good rates in over the winter that that time it was important for me the hotel had to be cheap because I was a Freelancer so I went there was with the BMW PR people that were all staying there and we were having a dinner there was Paul Roser the uh BMW engine the head of engine Department there was Herby

the team manager there were da stoer who was the race director of of of um BMW were all there the only guy who was missing was Nelson I think he was eating in town in tulong and uh he he later came back and I think Herby said to him come on Talk to the guy for 5 minutes and then he's happy and we were standing at the bar and it was not 5 minutes it was 2 hours and we were talking about you know everything racing but also I I've never been at Brazil at the

time I wanted to know how is that country and politics and whatever he kind of liked me I liked him obviously and then he was starting to teach me he said uh you know if I tell you something I don't say anything You write it sometimes I might tell you uh don't quote me you can write it in your own words and there might be occasions when I say don't write it at all and that's how he how I started to learn that business with him thanks to him and since then we had been friends

and it's interesting because Nelson he didn't like journalist yeah exactly something two or three yeah I think Jeff Hutchinson was one of them and maybe roer at the time and that was it and Pino obviously yeah and why do you think he prefer to talk to German journalists Italian journalists than Brazilian journalists why do you think he prefer to honestly I don't know we have to ask a d right I forgot to ask him um going back to 77 when you when you started in Formula 1 you going back to 95 three drivers from 95

and from 77 up to nowadays if you had to put them in order what would be your pick my Favorite three from 95 no not your favorite the ones that in your opinion the three best guys best okay let's say you had a race team you had three cars and you could put these three driver to read my mind I've always liked the idea of yeah to to form your your dream team what would be your three picks oh give me a second um and and I only want to know from 95 until now because

it was when you were directly involved and you from 77 so you can't Say [Music] Fel okay so my era I have to say Michael Michael Schumer um just what a hero so quick but what I loved about him was the way he galvanized the teams he raced for particularly Ferrari it's it's sort of legendary around there the way he got that team functioning as a team you know he knew all the mechanics names I know that seemed such an obvious thing but he Not only that he knew their wives names Partners names children's names

birthdays and I think that makes such a difference so and I just found him so exciting on track you know do I think Michael was as fast as at and Senna no over one lap but do I think he was just if he was 99.9% of Center he could do that for 72 laps and I just I had huge respect for him and and I'm you know just to bring it on to today I'm sort of Reminded of Michael when I look at Max for stappen now the sort of the ruthless streak the way that

it seems the Red Bull now only one guy can drive it it reminds me of the beneton in the mid90s in sort of 94 95 none of Michael's teammates could drive that thing anything like as well as he could so Michael would be in my team um I would then I mean you have to put Max in it if we're going for the best three drivers since then um do you Know I had a really interesting chat with Gard Berger about Max um I was interviewing geard uh at his house in in Austria in the

Austrian outs beautiful I'm sure you've probably been there my but and he's got one room in his house which has all of his racing memorability and nothing else any other room there's no reference to Motorsport there's one room where all his trophies are his old helmets and the only helmet of any driver that he has in his house other Than his own is Max for stappen so I that caught my eye and I said and Max has his helmet probably yeah that's but I said why Max and he said I think Max is unbelievable and

I said how good is Max and he said um actually I think he might be better than it and I said that's a big statement coming from you given that they were teammates and friends and friends and friends and he said no no it's not a Talent thing I don't think Max is more talented than Aon and Eton in in his era was unbelievably fast but it's it's the Sim racing he said that wasn't an option for Eton but he said if you're a racing driver and you just do a th every day you're doing

a race start or every day you're just on the Sim repetition muscle memory it's all peripheral vision spatial awareness you will become a better racing driver if you do a Sim the Sim stuff as often As Max does so he thinks that gives him the edge over someone like like Senna which I thought was fascinating or or someone against maybe any of other current drivers on F1 which don't use the Sim as much probably yeah yeah so he would be my second driver and I would put Alonzo as my third driver I do you know

what Michael I'd love to get your thoughts but I findo is my list as well so I find quite a brilliant racing driver wired the same way as Max And schumacker in that it's all about winning it's not in fact it's not just about winning it's about crushing the opposition isn't it it's more than just winning um and I love his longevity his passion his passion for it and he's also fiercely intelligent he's a really interesting guy to interview because there aren't many racing drivers obviously I'm including YouTube but who where every sentence that comes

out of their mouths is worth listening To and Alonzo is one of those guys he's sharp as a pin and um how I keep the piece between schumac of vapen and Alonzo that's going to be a challenge if it's my team but those those would be mine I think yeah I I would add to Alonzo there's no other driver who can read a race better than him and sometimes he can read race better than the guys on the on the pitb I mean the most incredible thing for me was when he lost the Championship in

2010 against Sebastian uh you know they they followed Weber I Weber went to the pits and then Ferrari was calling Alonzo and after the race Joe Bower the guy the FIA guy who checks the cars he said to me because he can listen to the to the whole radio and that was not tele broadcasted he said alono was saying on the radio when they were calling him in guys we are racing the wrong guy he saw it before Ferrari that the the Real Enemy was FAL and not we in this race and then I mean

there Little flashes like let's say the Singapore race he had not the best car now recently not the best car and I think he had an earlier pit stop than the others he undercut it some and the group was about a bunch of four or five cars I think led by hulkenberg I don't remember quite but doesn't matter um he let 5 seconds he had in his pocket for the last uh 25 laps and what he did was he was driving smoothly and let them close up and I said to to to my Colleague I

make a bet with you the moment they have closed or they are in his toe he speeds up and that's what he did he knew exactly if he goes hard on the tires with this bloody ason Martin which is eating up its tires he that would be the end he had no chance to defend himself so he was going really slowly and you must have you must have the balls do that because you know they will sooner or later they will show up in in in your back and then you must Have the confidence as

well yes then I have the tires and I I have the ability to drive away from them and it does it so many times it's so brilliant so just adding to what you just mentioned right now you still have to give us another two drivers but to me Alonso was brilliant in the Valencia 2012 race that was the race of his life like I have never ever seen some someone drive like what he did in in Valencia 2012 it it almost seemed as if it was The perfect match like because he's Spanish like they were

in Spain and it like it was a fairy tale and the way way he drove that race was Unreal absolutely yeah and then obviously the long time he has been around and you have to say maybe would have had as many championships as Michael Schumer or L Hamilton if he had been in the right team that I think is his biggest weakness he has chosen so often the wrong team at least at or or the right Team but at the wrong time yeah exactly yeah for a guy who is so intelligent it kind of I

can't join the dots on that really you would have thought he'd be the guy you have to hand it to Lewis he seems to be absolutely on the money every time he moves teams he got McLaren to Mercedes he got absolutely right and on the evidence of everything we're seeing at the minute the move to Ferrari's coming at the perfect time but honest I think it's a question Of it's very hard for you to be able to judge the driver in a case of Alonzo making the wrong ones or Lewis making the right ones oh

he was smarter he knew what I mean especially this year M you don't say if next year McLaren's going to be better Ferrari's going to be better Red Bull maybe even Mercedes shows up with a better car next year I mean yeah the grid so close it's so close that obviously now it seems like Ferrari is going to end the year maybe Up front everything can change so quickly maybe there is going to be a double onew McLaren over here you never know um but again it's such a hard decision you know I mean like

Fernando had a terrible relationship with McLaren left the team and if you would have asked him are you ever going to be there again never again in my life then he goes back in their worst moments you know it's but interestingly I I did a podcast with Fernando recently in which He said when he signed that McLaren deal in 2007 it was a three-year deal initially and he thought he was going to retire at the end of 2009 obviously it all was slightly chaotic and he left at the end of 2007 but I I think

he hadn't planned for life beyond the end of the McLaren contract so as a result I think he was unprepared and I think it it's everything caught him by surprise yes and I think and I think almost you could say the next five years Caught him by surprise in the he he dove into the situations as they were appearing and he wasn't planning for something whereas everything up to that point in his career had been beautifully planned and choreographed and orchestrated you know the okay he gets into Formula 1 with manard perfect place to start

I mean he was even building his own car before the first race in in Melbourne wasn't he in 2001 he then has to take the step back to do a Year's Testing but actually that really helped him grow and then when he hits the the race team at Renault in 2003 he wins a race and and then the two championships come and then they move to McLaren it looked on paper like a dream ticket didn't it abs and then suddenly all goes wrong and I think he was completely discombobulated by by the situation I'm Fernando

Alonzo how am I ending up at Renault in a non-race winning car when I should be winning everything and it took Him a long time to get his head around that and recover and then he got so I actually think the move to Ferrari was a good one was a good one yeah the timing was good the car was good and he came as you say but then he ran out of two times too close to the championship 2010 2012 too close that's actually the point Michael runs out of patience patience is the problem not

the ability to read what's going on it's a lack of patience yeah maybe Maybe the other two yeah well I start with Nikki not only because we were friends as well but nck I think I mean the story Nikki lder wrote nobody else can can write the the story of of his career I mean you know he he he started as somebody nobody took serious I remember Max MOS saying to me when he started at March and the march in 71 was a very good car but in 72 was a crap car you know it

was a flop and um Ronnie patteron obviously could drive with Everything quick and Robin her the designer said t Niki who was complaining that the car is not any good look at Ronnie yeah you know he can he can deal with it in the end Max Mosley who was the team owner at the time well the team principal at the time said we should have heard to Nikki this car was crap and he was right and um then then he went to Ferrari became Champion then he had his accident coming back then he retired because

he was border form one And wanted to do something else build up his airline business came back was Champion again you cannot write this story I mean you cannot invent this story sorry this is unbelievable and he was the first driver I mean there were were drivers before who who were not only quick who started to think you know you to be efficient like Jackie Stewart for example but I think he was the evolution of this um he was the first one who said I'm not going to break my Neck in a car which is

[ __ ] you know I'm I'm I'm trying to work with the engineers to make it better and I think it was the first driver who brought some thinking in it real deep thinking in in order to make the team better the car better and I think everybody learned from it your father he was he was the same type of driver then your father was always you know not only a fantastic driver he was somebody who who was really um analyzing the situation Testing a lot learning and then bringing his experience together with the engineers

making the car better Alan PR was the same also Nikki was teacher of alam PR as well so that's why I rate him and the other one I hope your dad is not angry I have to say Senna because you know Senna was uh the outstanding thing of senna was where his qualifying Labs you know I mean he did Labs you you couldn't believe it's Possible I wouldn't say that in races he was better than Nelson Nigel or Prost but in in qualifying he was unbelievable whether he took more risk or where he had more

talent I don't know but there were what was the best lap you saw Senna do I think Monaco Monaco yeah8 yeah and there was one in 8 I don't remember the year yeah but Monaco he was what about 1 and a half seconds faster yeah ex the the light one was the the lap they think they were they run Out of Po we talking about qualifying qualifying yeah yeah there's a qual mlar find the Telemetry that he is going to re out of pool and then he keep no no I'm not I'm okay I'm okay

I'm okay I'm okay and made the pool yeah and then there was one in Monza I think they had engine troubles in the morning and they couldn't set up the car uh and uh because they had to change the engine then and in the afternoon I think this Was a time when we had two qualifying sessions one on Friday afternoon one on Saturday afternoon and it was Saturday and um as I said uh he couldn't set up the car and Alam Pros was leading the whole time qualifying and then the very last lap he did

it with a car he really didn't know so can we just go back to Nikki cuz obviously I didn't know him as a as a racing driver I only knew him when he was at Ferrari as a as a in the Management and then when he was at Jaguar and all those things but what always struck me about him is that he was distinctly unimpressed by Formula 1 and what I mean by that is there are so many sick offense there's so much excuse my French there's so much [ __ ] in Formula 1 and

you can say that again but Nikki but Nikki could just cut straight through it and whether it was an engineer trying to tell him a Porky about what the car was doing or setup or Some new development he would cut straight through that if it was someone trying to befriend him and he didn't like him he would just get rid of that you know what I mean he was sort of there was no he was so unimpressed by that he was here purely cuz he loved the sport for what it was early on in his

career as a racing driver then laterally and to Wolf will tell you this he was brilliant a brilliant sounding board for Toto when he first took over at Mercedes Cuz he would just cut through it yeah and he saw the point you know I mean I remember there was a uh every Sunday morning obviously there's the strategy meeting of the team and he was part of it and he was mostly listening and then they were talking for one hour you know where on of TW of three stops whatever and then they came they thought they

came to a conclusion and then the whole thing was finished and Nikki said are we doing now one stop or two stop race so For him there was no conclusion they were talking around they had so many options but none of them said are we doing one or two stop and he said I get mad with these Engineers you know because they're talking talking talking but they don't do any decisions yeah and that was typ typically Nikki we need to make our Pit Stop moment in the show but think about one question what is the

difference between Sena and Nelson and then you're going to ask answer before The moment bit stop I want to ask you guys rank the top five best drivers to interview in Formula One current drivers that's a good question ever from your career for your career the top five b yeah easy questions yeah I would say Nikki for sure uh I I I want to leave out Nelson because we are friends so this is you know not not interview as a journalist because we are talking so much so uh Then I did one was Mika Heen

I said this was probably one of my best uh I did a very good one with Senna which I didn't expect because I thought he wouldn't like to do it with me but because we had sometimes a little bit of trouble because you know he found out that I was good friends to Nelson he didn't like it too much then then that settled and then he found out that I'm good friends to Alam PR as well he didn't like it it was always going you need to look better or Friendships it was always going up

and down and he had a friend in Germany I don't know whoever you remember him G Kramer he was the guy who was selling cars to drivers team managers whatever he was a guy from Mercedes and and had a bunch of helmets at his house also exactly yeah yeah and he was a very good friend to Senna and uh I was talking to him over the winter it was 93 you know when nobody knew where Sena was and uh and uh and nobody knew whe the sener Would continue even and we talked about normal things

and then he all of at the end he said ah by the way ayon is coming to me next weekend um and I just said to him y you can ask him if he would like to do an interview with me I was sure he would say no next I was calling him again he said no come to this in this restaurant we will have an interview and it was the first one over the whole winter nobody in Brazil did it you know and we met there and and in between I Had been in Paris

for one day there was a FIA meeting Max Mosley was was presenting new rules and uh okay so we met there and uh it was really nice with me which I thought is a bit strange uh and uh he wanted to know what happened in Paris and then we started and immediately you felt what what his the why he was so friendly with me and what he wanted me to do for him it the problem was that Ron Dennis offered him a contract I think he offered him $6 Million and he told me I mean

that was on record sener talking about money he said to said to me last season I earned $20 million at McLaren plus 4 million from banun naal I think that was his person sponsor and he said okay it was a time of um of um financially very poor time at the at the beginning of the '90s and the recession and he said okay I understand uh that I have to come down a little bit with the money and he said about a million per race and was 16 Races that would be he would agree but

he said $6 million was an insult so therefore he didn't talk to Ron over the whole winter and then Ron apparently called him and he was the week before he was with Ron and he said guess what he offered me I said I don't know 5 million so and then he he want to tell the world I want to drive but this bloody Ron Dennis doesn't pay me properly you know and uh and he knew that at the time I was working on the Side a little bit for leip and I was working also for

the German news agency so he knew it would spread out quite quickly so that's the reason why it was a good interview hecken and I said louder oh then then it will be difficult maybe you tell free and then maybe it's one of my great sadnesses that I never got to interview A and S I will say um that's a great story what a great time to interview him as well just before the 93 season um so I really enjoyed speaking to your uncle Emerson um so passionate what are we it's 50 years since he

won his title isn't it with with McLaren and yet emo loves it as much today I believe as he did when he was driving in the early 70s and or 70s and 80s but so I loved his passion um then coming forward I I am a great fan of the professor um Alan Prost I Think is a super smart guy um remembers it all incredibly well Alan doesn't he he'll start talking setups from the you know 1984 Portuguese Grand Prix and he be like okay um and uh I one little story about Prost in 2012

12 in the summer break I went and cycled out Duz with him and Mark Weber and uh just very can I tell this story for show you I probably can't Actually share the details I'm sorry I probably should have um thought more but all I can tell you is that in 2012 Alan Prost was still incredibly fit oh my goodness he beat me by 10 minutes of and him and Weber were neck and neck but he's just a great interview Alan and um I get quite emotional occasionally he turns up and will like in Bahrain

this year he drove was it the 84 McLaren I can't remember which one but when you sort of see him doing his thing and he Still fits in the same overalls that he had all those years ago so uh yeah so I'm going to go Emerson I'm going to go Anna I'm going to go uh Sebastian vettle I enjoyed speaking to he's part partly because I think he's the common factor among all the good ones is that they're incredibly bright and AET is definitely one of those guys um but he he speaks so much sense

Sebastian you find as you're talking to him annoyingly you just find Yourself agreeing with him you want to sort of prod him a bit and make but actually he just he's one of those people who speaks a lot of sense so I can see why he had the success he had in a in a sort of louder esque way maybe Michael you see the similarities absolutely yeah yeah right that's my three I'll think about two more while you're doing no I add then Fernando Alonzo and also Alam Frost but I want to add something on

on mikah heckin and Which probably a bit surprising yeah uh it was in when he did you retired 2001 I think yeah yeah both his last season uh in Canada David kulta told me by the way I tell you Mika is retiring so um and I went to Mika and I said I I hear some rumors you might retire was immediately open to me I said yes it's true but can you ask you for a favor don't write it I promise you you will be the first one to get an interview with me once it's

announced and it will be in Monza he Said so okay Monza that was a big announcement in the McLaren by the way at the time was still a tent it was not these huge motor homes and I was sitting in a corner and was listening to it and I thought what's going to happen now once it was all over and actually Mika came and I said I remember you are the first one and he invited me the the week after to Monte Carlo come to his place and do the interview and then in those days

you know with McLaren Ron was Always nervous and Mercedes was nervous that people say the right thing and I think Mercedes wanted to send shuttling there and and mik said no no we do it on our own there will be nobody from the team and shuttling was even the day before I went down to Monte Carlo was calling me can I help you somehow I said no no I find my way to Monte Carlo and mik was brilant in that interview he was admitting that he was really afraid that he was to have another accident

and he Said I have got everything in my life and I had to had to S had to tell myself don't get too greedy you know because because I might get hurt and to for a driver to admit that fear was driving him out of Formula 1 that was quite something your last two guys my last I'm going to see he didn't for yeah I was hoping you were going to forget uh I will I have to say Alonzo of the of the current grid I would say um Fernando Alonzo let me go back To

Damon Hill Damon Hill is um very good uh he Damon Hill is he's he's a incredibly witty guy I really en he's quite left field he'll say things that you don't expect him to say but that makes him really interesting and um he's incredibly likable I think his story um is unique you know loses his father when he's 15 when Graham was uh killed in that terrible airplane crash he then uh gets involved in racing on two Wheels you know half decent bike racer and then gets involved in car racing and and sort of against

all the odds I feel he made it and then when he came in in 93 and won those three races is it was um I I was quite surprised that he had as much success immediately as he did but of course he done a lot of the testing with the active suspension for Williams the previous couple of years and um I just have a huge respect for Damon as as Much as a as a person as as a racing driver so I really enjoy speaking to him his book is great to be honest yes yeah

working the wheels is that yeah exactly yeah interesting interesting answers to fore [Music] I didn't forget okay everybody here want to know what is the difference between Aon and Nelson I would say Nelson is um Nelson is efficiency and Aon is emotions or if you you can translate it It Nelson was a strategist and the Senna was an artist and you can see it in his career I mean Nelson did I think 23 victories he he has and he was three times world champion that is efficiency yeah you you both talk about Alonso uh alono

has only two championships and you have another drivers with more than two championships three four seven but do you think in 20 30 years we remember much more Alonso Than pvto in Formula One history so sorry let me just not rephrase it but add to the question we have this duel over here which I rate Alonzo higher than vetto okay he's a big vetto fan I'm a big Alonzo fan um so yeah this is I don't know what they're talking about okay no but I I really like vetto but I talking to everyone every every

we would like to know your opinion basic you know Christian hor tells the story that um he Tried twice to sign Fernando when uh once in 2008 and again in 2009 and in 2009 Alonzo's sell big sell to Christian hor was midway through the season he said if you put me in that car now with only half the races left I will still beat I I will win the World Championship that's how confident he was um that would have been a good battle I think Alonzo and vettle alongside each other absolutely where would your money

go uh in the Red Bull at that time I think that is very difficult to say in other cars I would say for Alonzo but because you know if Alonzo had joined Red Bull at the time FAL was already there he knew everybody he knew how the car was working and I think it would have taken alono quite a while maybe in the end that they would have been evenly matched but let's say if they had been both had been forced both to go at the same time at Ferrari I would say to a new

team then alono would Have been Chris no so then do you think that veto's marriage with Red Bull was better than his marriage with with Ferrari at the time yes probably I mean emotionally he was more in Ferrari FAL than at at Red Bull but you know it all fitted I mean fettle was new Red Bull was kind of new the team grew up together and all of a sudden they had this car and Adrian had these brilliant ideas uh uh and and then it was working for four years I mean it was for sure

it Was uh also on Merit of Sebastian that it was working for four years because again like we said he was a a thinking driver like like Nikki La he was really studying everything the setup the car the circuits he had his little notebook and uh he was uh and that made also the team better the the vetal Adrian Nei relationship um was a very special one they're quite similar personalities actually I think when you speak to both Of them and and it I obviously never knew Chapman or Jim Clark but I do believe that

the Nei vetal relationship on paper at least was probably quite similar to the Chapman which would have been difficult for Alonzo to break down yeah yeah exactly now that you guys enter the whole Nei um topic do you think because how technology and the amount of Engineers and the way the teams are growing at the moment you know Nei Obviously is a gen we all know that but do you think that all his results um were much more a result of him like dependent much more on him the ones in the '90s and the recent

ones do you think that it's also no this is they've won like let's say get let's get the last Red Bull over here that's been so dominant for the last two three years do you think that's a purely Nei involvement Nei deserves that those winds as much as for example the winds That Nei got for McLaren in the late 90s I would say at at Red Bull in the end I it was is I think is common knowledge that Adrien got a very very good off of Ferrari in 2014 and as a consequence of this

Christian honer said we we were forced to put ourself more feet than just Adrian yui so that's when they build up this this engine Department which they have now with piash with Paul Monahan with uh uh water Ben water house and uh there's another One uh it was Rob Marshall who left now to to McLaren so I think step by step knew he was doing less but he has the experience and he has the overall picture more than anybody else and in particular you could see it with these ground effect cars because it was a

technology coming back which we had already 40 45 years ago and the physics are the same I mean we have bouncing now and we had it 40 years ago and there's a nice story Adrian was telling me when he Was uh working at fali we had just a talk about that Christian and um he was a young aerodynamicist there so it was the first team who took him on board and he said I started as a junior aerody Nemesis at fali and the day after I was a senior aerody Nemesis because there was no over

there it was only one Herod Nemesis so it was I was promoted in one day and then they had a test in um in in Silverstone and they had quite a good Solution to to control the bouncing and um there was this test in Silverstone and Harvey poate who was the chief engineer he had this strange thing with these U special rubber uh dampers he had already done it at hfe he all he tried it everywhere it was kind of a spleen you know and he they were trying it there and he said we had

set up the car the same as before there was just this bloody rubber dampers in the in the car and all of a sudden the bouncing started And was it was so bad that the car was with all four wheels in the air and you remembered that that uh that moment and that told him ground effect causes not only aerodynamics the suspension is as much important than as the aerodynamics and I spoke with pi Vash in in Spa about that and he said yes it's true the reason why we we had the best car right

from the word go with the ground effect era forget now the overweight that was a handicap at the beginning but the car Was the best from from the beginning the Red Bull was because we were the only ones who took care of the mechanical part of the car we had a quite quite big ride in which the car was working aerodynamically whereas the others trying to go low low low and then the then then the obious problems started because bouncing is always the result of too much downfall because you need that downforce that the car

is stck to the ground and It they touches the ground then you uh the the the air flow is stopped and it comes up and and and and uh and that was impressive and he was a guy who said to he was the guy who said to the the Red Bull Engineers listen we have to get the suspension right as much as the aerodynamics and I think that is the new effect but do you think that him leaving Red Bull you think it's a warry for the team or you think the team will continue to

operate and work and has the same Chances of building a 2026 spec car good as well we think losing Adrian is a big loss it is a big loss it's a good gain to as Martin it's a good deal to Mar not only in designing the car also in setting up the car I mean even helmet Marco admits now this this was is new now with the car we have we can't make it much better because it's you know they are restricted with that concept they have they can't make a mlar out of it unless

they build a Complete new car but Adrian at least knew how to set up a any car whether it's a good car or a bad car so he still was really Hands-On he still was really involved in everything he was a race engineer when he started so he knows I think he knows the other side of the and he's brilliant at working with racing drivers I do wonder whether czecho Perez has really suffered not not having Adrien in the team I think his performance has dropped off in The second half 2024 coincidentally that's the period

of time that Adrian's not been there but it's the start hard dust isn't it everything that Michael says is is absolutely bang on but it's he'll go to Aston Martin and you know they've got a phenomenal team they've got a phenomenal facilities now at Silverstone but he will just come and I think observe all the programs going on for 26 and just throw in ideas have you thought about this have you thought About that whether it was okay we got the ground effect cars coming for 22 have with suspension where are we at with the

suspension because my experience with the damp and it's that it's that experience that whole car holistic approach that's what they're gaining and he has the authority you know he said for example at one time at Red Bull I want to have the gearbox dead narrow and the other engineers said it's not possible they said I want to have it We have to have it because I have this idea aerodynamically we need to be narrow in the in the in in the in the rear end of the car mhm and then they do it if any

other engineer would come up with such an idea they don't have the balls to say do it this way because would listen they would find thousand reasons why not to do it yeah it's kind of difficult to say no to Adrian as Lawrence stro found out yeah it's going to be very interesting to see This fortunately we are coming to the end of the program but I want to know Tom what else you good at I know where you're going with that not cooking not cooking but um gosh quick fire questions is that what we're

doing now um uh what else am I good at nothing nothing it's impossible you are cycling with Mar Weber and cycling and I do a bit of this and that but that's um no Formula One is the Passion Formula One is I'm I'm a one trick pony if you can call me that which person you are stuck in a li with which racing person Dead or Alive yeah would I want to be stuck in a lift with um can I say Nelson PK either haven't had either of them on the podcast I think it's going

to be a very interesting podcast no but I have I have one question before I think um you guys been through especially you Michael through different eras of Formula 1 and Lately the last well since since um Liberty bought uh the sport obviously commercially it it grew like we had no idea how big the sport can be could become you know I mean things the the things we have seen the changes in America it's it's insane in 10 years the whole game turned around um but for since you beginning since you started an F1 like

late 70s till now you know CU um what has been your most your favorite area where you most Enjoyed where you think that um I don't know the right balance between the commercial side between the Sportsman side uh between the fans you know do you think do you think now is the best ERA because it's more interest because it's bigger or do what's your you have seen this whole all these decades everything changing so much what's your favorite era not not personally just for you to be able to work but also from driver's Point of

view from the teams this you know the whole 360 well well never ask an old person what he likes most is always the old days so actually I have to say the ' 80s because you know it was so fascinating the the turbocharged engines were coming in and there was so many things new all of a sudden the manufacturers which were out of Formula 1 since the 50s you know in the 60s Honda was the only one in Ferrari obviously but in the' 70s there Was almost none and all of a sudden you know there

were turbocharge engines and then uh Renault started it Ferrari did it then BMW came Honda came all of a sudden all these big names were there and every every weekend you saw another step on on the engine side of course the the cars were a bit boring because Adrian knew used to say that was so much power the only thing people thought about or the engineers thought about yeah the wings as big as possible to get The power down actually I would have liked to be around in the 70s when on the car side we

had so many ideas so funny ideas some worked some not like the six wheer was kind of good then or the fan car of breev you know we don't have that anymore because the rules are too strict too too restricted the cars okay for us we see the differences still but for a fan it's unless he's really honored is very difficult I agree with you about overregulation I feel now that We've got the cost cap in Formula 1 we had to you know the costs were spiraling out of control so the cost cap comes in

and then I feel that you could relax the regulations yeah yeah that's a good point I never about I feel you don't need both you either keep yeah keep the budgets open and restrict the regulations to keep it under control or you restrict the budgets and open I feel you don't need both so um it'll be interesting to see what happens in 2026 Of course with all the regulation changes new cars they are actually quite restrictive still from an aerodynamic point of view thinking of Adrian Nei uh but I think the power units will be

interesting um but do you know what the fundamentals haven't changed yes under Liberty um sport as you say has grown exponentially not just in America around Sunday afternoon for 2 hours it's the same yeah it's the same exactly fun you know mean that bit hasn't in the exper In my time it hasn't changed and that's and As Long as That Remains the Same the sport is going to grow and grow I think and I think what's pretty cool about it nowadays which we fre frequently talk about it is it's so close so close that that

you can have surprises I remember back in like in my day like 3 seconds 4 seconds would would separate the beginning of the grid until the last of the grid nowadays there's no doubt what Christian is saying that from I don't know if it's if your opinion is the same but this is the closest that one has been ever in terms of it's it's in that regards there's no doubt that this is the best kind of ringg we have seen since the beginning of F1 and and very seldom which it's something else that we consistently

talk about we see mechanical problems M like how many races the 20 cars that start finish and those that don't finish is usually because a crash they got tangled Together with another car but mechanically very very very little cars don't finish the race it's ruthless now as a result you know a driver I always think formula is such a relative sport in the what I call the real world outside Formula 1 2/10 is nothing right but now if you go into Formula One 2/10 is the difference between having a career and not having a career

and that's interesting because we talked a lot about this a few times that You get some drivers or some um teammates from the the '90s early 2000s that had dominant cars that always finished 13 one two and this and that that nowadays a situation like what Paris is going through um which it's really tough for him he's struggling but it on the track it looks really bad which probably 10 years ago he could have had the seat for many more years because being 310 slower than your teammates would have been okay those Days because the

the second team is half a second slower or maybe 310 but they need to get everything perfect and it's only one car or two cars between you and your teammates you know so I think a lot a lot of teammates in the '90s OR 2000s whatever got away with it got away was a lot of was a lot of a long career because there were only one or two teams that were in the same field as them and the other 16 14 cars were too far to to drive closely but coming to The point Christian

mentioned with the reliability I think that's an interesting point for me cars being not so reliable was a strong part of the of the of motor racing because that created interest I mean there had been always boring races but in the past you never could say the during the race the race is boring because you know something could have happened as I mentioned Jack bream running out of fuel in the last lap which probably never ever will Happen anymore or or something breaking down all of a sudden the race turned from being boring to be

exciting that's not there anymore and that is why they introduced the point for fastest lap I think because the cars were so reliable once the field was set that was going to that's kind of it now because you know they're not going to retire whereas so let's encourage someone to come in put some soft tires on and go for it yeah which thank God they're going to get rid Of it would you like to see a point for pole position I think I I I see yeah I see a lot cooler for for po position

than than it is for four fastest lap and maybe okay resounding well maybe even top 10 like on the grid but that I don't know if if that's fair but but then that would be an incentive even for the smaller teams to try and and make Q3 yeah but it to your point it makes a lot more sense to award points for qualifying than it does for the race Which to me it's complete BS because a guy that's running last with with one lap to go he puts a set of soft tires on when everyone

else during the whole race only ran medium and hard it's like going to war with with with a machine gun against what do you think about the point for the most lead laps you did a lot of indie car racing and I think there is the common common rules that the most that that also would be an incentive for for people that are Running up at the front like not to play games just start the race and go for it the only problem with this point for um for pole position is that when you end

up with a season like last season where Max how many polls did Max get last year he like oh no he's running away with it even more yeah but he was going to win the championship anyway like he he he was so far away but yes I see your point all oh let's not give him an extra 24 points it's a different scenario we Always think about the dynasty shakas red and then these points are not so so easy to to find talking about easy to find it's serious that you don't have a cell phone

oh yeah by the way everybody is watching you're going to be reading this in Portuguese Michael doesn't have a cell phone he's the second person I only know in my life second second phone Michael so the there's a there's a lady that that that took care of me when I Grew up in in sou of France was my mom's best friend um and she she she was the director the owner of the animal shelter in Monaco and you probably have seen her some races my mom's friend Jan her name and she till this day she

doesn't have a cell phone I mean she has one in her bag as an emergency because she still lives by she lives by herself and she's already 70 something years old so if something happens she needs to call someone um but yeah he travels the whole World how going everywhere and then he arrives in s Paulo it doesn't get a Uber obviously because he doesn't have a telephone but doesn't get a tax doesn't get a taxi either he rents a car and he has he in his luggage he carries 15 Maps different Maps don't I

think are are there Maps existing of sa Pao well you probably have one from the 1990s still that you still bring along don't you yeah okay but how do you get around do you remember the ways like how do you he Remembers by head but by head how do you do to drive around yeah I mean if few I mean you know if if me ask if you ask me going this and this road I never seen obviously I wouldn't find it so when when you go to Japan you rent a car and you drive

no Japan I we don't drive you go by train this the best okay so let me get another place which is another place no s pao's already impressive Mexico City for example uh Not anymore because we use normally we use the subway but this year they they closed the line and my my colleague we were driving Uber all all the time but you know in the past everybody said you you have to go in Mexico by Uber from from the hotel to the track honestly the best Subway worst subway unfortunately we couldn't use it this

year because it was closed for renovation but uh it's the fastest and the best but I'm hearing a lot of people asking me but what's the Reason why you don't have a cell phone yes yeah because you know I never like talking on the phone never already as a kid I have to see the people when I when I talk to them and when the when the mobiles came up in the '90s or somewhere sometime you know I said why do I need one another phone I have one phone at home and have one phone

in the office that's enough and so I never had one and then when they became more sophisticated now is a is a computer yeah then then I Started thinking about it but then I I don't like um the um the idea that you depend on the No No that you are supervised by this thing you know whatever you do whatever you buy not obviously not people like in like in China but it's an algorithm who knows exactly what you are doing where you are oh yeah definitely yeah and my girlfriend my wife keeps an eye

on me she knows exactly where I am all the time wife no no No that's why he keep the eye I'm similar to my dad but not that much I think it's an extraordinary achievement to be able to do this with no mobile phone it's a drug this is a drug no but just to be able to live Nelson just to be able to live this life right we know that very well from you I yes from me we all work on the phone we all work yeah I'm ordering the the car for The next

the next guy that is arriving over here right now right now like today but what about the other day old people you know but when you sit in let's say in in in Singapore you go by the subway as well when you stand there and then watch all the people 98% have the mobile in their hand and doing something they're so sad Michael you can be one of the 2% yeah that doesn't he can be no no but who has the phone but doesn't look the Dom in Germany actually There are 3 million people out

of 85 who don't have a pH mobile what 3 million people out of 85 well I think a lot W that's the biggest percentage in the whole world probably taking away Africa here in Brazil have more cell phone than Brazilians really yeah more cell phone lines than Brazilian m is yeah wow I didn't know that that's interesting well I have two lines oh three Brazilians with four lines there we Go that's inter so don't have social medias probably clearly not yeah no social media no social medias tell me someone I have a phone I do

have a pH pH yeah yeah text me if you need what's your number justt people want to know your number like that they can text you they want to ask you starts with plus 44 but people can follow on Twitter yeah Tom Clarks CL I Yeah when we have long drives in Europe to the races we listening his podcast no don't do that you might yeah yeah and and of course follow the beyond the grid follow Beyond The Grid if you want to listen to this man too he's coming up I'm gonna for sure I'm

going to listen this interview T again thank you so much pleasure was a pleasure for us really enjoyed it thank youo thank you very much again for i' like to send a Christmas message but I don't have You're going to need his home address and send a bottle of wine of wine in a postal card you can send me an email s and I empty the Box not like his father his father the funny thing is between the communication between him and my dad is a bit bit compc him is only by email my dad

is only by text so he sends an email to me I need to copy the email put in the text and then send it to my dad and my dad replies the text and I put an email send It to him that's that's how complex it is you are the operator operator thank you guys thank you Michael Tom for sharing all this this knowledge that you guys have in in Formula 1 and and uh that was really really cool it it it was different yeah it was completely different it it's really cool [Music] keep it

flat out [Music] [Music]