Oppenheimer: The Real Story | Documentary

[suspenseful music] [logo cracking] [dramatic suspenseful music] - [Narrator] In 1945, a frail looking scientist drove this road on his way to the Trinity Site. It's a sad and depressing stretch of vast unforgiving desert in New Mexico, but in colonial times, it was the sorry end of many travelers' dreams. He was an ivory tower academic, a multilinguist, a polymath, an undoubted genius, had never managed more than a handful of students, And had spent all of his professional life surrounded by books, blackboards, and theorem. Now he had built an isolated secret city in the sky where a

scientific community of over 6,000 people lived and worked on the most expensive military scientific project ever attempted. He had done in months what other global powers had failed to do in years, and now he stood on the edge of discovering if all his efforts would come to fruition. Just days before, he had taken delivery of the plutonium, Which was essential to his bomb. He'd signed a receipt for hundreds of millions of dollars. It was the fruits of the labors of hundreds of thousands of unwitting workers spread in secret locations across the United States. In this

rundown old ranch house, the elements were assembled then taken to the test site tower. As the lightning crackled in the sky and the wind howled, he lay on the floor of the canyon, waiting for the detonation. [thunder rumbles] He knew that the fate of his nation, the lives of millions of people, and the future of the world lay in his hands. From somewhere, a few words formed in his mind. - "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." [atomic bomb booming] [dramatic music] - Robert Oppenheimer grew up in a very privileged circumstance. [cheerful piano

music] He lived in a 10-room apartment on the Upper West Side. His parents had made by that time quite a bit of money. He had a limousine with a chauffeur. They had servants. They had a house in Long Island. They had a small sailing yacht, which he named the Trimethy, after the chemical compound. - When Oppenheimer was growing up, more or less his only models were his parents. He was brought up in isolation until he went to school, and he went to school comparatively late. And anything Oppenheimer showed an interest in, his parents would buy

things to satisfy that interest. If he showed any interest in painting, They would buy him an easel and some paints. One thing he showed a very keen interest in was geology and so they furnished him with a collection of rocks, he then went on trips. He actually did, at the age of 13, original research in geology and joined the New York City geology society and was invited by them, they didn't know that he was just some kid. He was invited by them to give a research paper. So what was life like? It was very privileged

but very intense, And he always felt that there was something sad about his parents. His mother had a withered hand and she kept it very secret, and no one was allowed to mention it. And the general emotional atmosphere in the Oppenheimer household was rather repressed. - It was very sheltered. It was extremely privileged. [cheerful piano music] [birds chirping] [cheerful piano music continues] He was, you know, surrounded by culture and art. His mother was an artist and a collector of modern art, you know, Van Gogh paintings. He once said that his life as a child offered

no normal, healthy way to be a bastard. - He went to a private school, the Ethical Culture School. You know, he was a very sheltered privileged young man. - His fellow schoolmates, one of them remembers him saying, "Ask me a question in Latin, and I will reply to you in Greek," which was an enormously impressive thing to do At the age of 13 but not perhaps the best way to win friends. - The Ethical Culture School was Jewish but not Jewish. It came out of Judaism, founded by a Reform rabbi, but it was very much

a sort of turn of the century creation. - Although he was finally with other children his age, he didn't end up making any friends. And until Francis Fergusson arrived, who arrived from the other side of the country, he was from the Southwest, he was from New Mexico, came from rather a grand old New Mexican family, but unlike almost all the other children At the Ethical Culture School, Francis Fergusson did not come from the Jewish community of the Upper West Side. And I think that had a lot to do with the bond that Oppenheimer formed with

him. It's very difficult to know why exactly, but Oppenheimer from a very young age, made efforts to distance himself from the description that almost everybody would've given of him. To almost everybody, he would've been a German Jew. He insisted he was neither German nor Jewish. [laughs] And so, He was at odds with the perception of him, which I think is also part of his enormously complicated makeup. - And I think this was very much bound up with an attempt to escape from a particularly Jewish identity and to be an American, whatever that meant. And that

very much influenced Oppenheimer and he was always uncomfortable with being identified as Jewish. - But, you know, he had a good childhood. He had no traumatic experiences. He was very privileged. He went horseback riding in Central Park, and he fell in love increasingly at the Ethical Culture School, with science. He focused a lot on chemistry. - Later interest in New Mexico, his horse riding, his sailing, his sort of adventurousness and risk taking in a way, very clearly was a reaction against this highly controlled, almost luxurious prison of his childhood. - I think he had a

big ego, [laughs] yes. He had a strong ego, He knew he was intelligent, and he was always very ambitious. - He was a little bit precious in a way and that led him to be bullied by other children. There was an incident at a summer camp where he was really quite nastily bullied, but I do think that he was aware of his intellectual abilities and was extremely ambitious. He wanted to do something special. - So he had a year of enforced leisure because he became ill, And for the first time, he became a troublesome boy

and his parents didn't know what to do with him. He was difficult. He was fed up. He didn't want to be at home. He wanted to be at Harvard. He wanted to be with super bright people. He wanted to be studying chemistry and physics. And partly, I think, to get rid of him, his parents approached a teacher at his school called Smith and asked Smith to take Robert on a trip out West. [gentle upbeat music] Now, the connection with New Mexico was provided by Francis Fergusson, who was the one boy at the Ethical Culture School

with whom Oppenheimer had a friendship. And Fergusson was from a well-known family in New Mexico. [water rushing] And so Oppenheimer went to stay with Fergusson, cementing their friendship, Fergusson would go on to Harvard as well, but it gave Oppenheimer a love of the Southwest and particularly of New Mexico. - New Mexico couldn't have been more of a contrast from his upbringing in New York and the whole environment of New York and the Ethical Culture School, and he became infatuated with an older woman in her 20s, Katherine Chaves Page. That was the first time that he

had really that kind of romantic interest, although it was completely platonic. - Oh, New Mexico had an enormous impact on him. He fell in love with the desert, the high plains around Santa Fe, And he rode horseback into the Pecos Mountains. - [Charles] That was this sort of adventurous spirit that was an escape from this claustrophobic background of his childhood, I think. - [Kai] Just the starkness of the geography, he took to it. Yeah, he fell in love with New Mexico. Started renting in 1929 on 135 acres up at like 9,500 feet in the middle

of nowhere, [laughs] but he loved it. It was so spartan. That was the kind of thing he really enjoyed. - [Frank] We slept on the floor, a board floor, and we didn't have enough covers, and we were pretty frozen by morning. But [laughs] that didn't bother Robert much, he was a fairly hardy fellow, although he didn't look that way. He looked terribly frail, but he was pretty tough. [hopeful music] - A decade later, he was always telling people, he was quipping that his ambition in life was to combine physics with New Mexico. [laughs] And so,

and he did. [laughs] - And actually, if he hadn't had that holiday in the summer of 1922 in New Mexico, then 20 years later, the laboratory to build the first atomic bomb would most likely have been built somewhere else. - Again, he succeeded at everything he did at Harvard but he remained very socially awkward. He had a few friends, his roommates. You know, he was a very intense personality and I don't think he... I don't think hemade any long-term friendships there, But he got through it and succeeded and went off to Cambridge, England to study

physics. - And the most famous physicist at that time was Ernest Rutherford, who was at Cambridge, and what Oppenheimer wanted was to work with Ernest Rutherford. But there was a problem there because although as a student, he'd shown himself to be a brilliant theoretical physicist, in the laboratory, he was a disaster, and Rutherford was an applied physicist, so Rutherford turned him down. Rutherford's colleague was a man called J.J. Thompson, Who had discovered the electron. And as a sort of second best, Oppenheimer chose to work with Thompson, who too was an experimental physicist, and got Oppenheimer

to work in the lab, which he was very bad at. And he spent a year at Cambridge in England and it was the most unhappy year of his life. He was a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. He wasn't a laboratory physicist, he was most interested in theoretical physics, and he also found it difficult socially in Cambridge. It was expected of all the students that they would give a presentation every now and again explaining what they were up to. There's a story that Oppenheimer gave his presentation, chalk in hand, facing the blackboard,

saying, "The point is, the point is, the point is," and he just kept repeating this over and over again until he was [laughs] gently moved to one side. There are other reports of people finding him curled up in the fetus position on the floor of the laboratory and another story of him trying to murder Patrick Blackett. Patrick Blackett was, one supposes, Represented to Oppenheimer everything that Oppenheimer felt he wasn't. Patrick Blackett was notoriously well connected. He was very good looking. He was very debonair. He was superbly good in the laboratory. And Oppenheimer once went on

holiday to Corsica and he said to his friends, "Oh, I've got to get back to Cambridge," and they said, "Why?" He said, "Well, I've left a poisoned apple on Blackett's desk, And I want to get back and remove it before it kills him." I think he found the snobbery very difficult. Harvard had been explicitly anti-Semitic. That doesn't seem to have troubled Oppenheimer all that much. I think what bothered him at Cambridge was there was little to no explicit antisemitism, but I think one way or another, he received the impression that he wasn't one of them.

And I think this bothered him to his very core. Salvation came to throw Oppenheimer a lifeline was Max Born, the German physicist who became a Nobel Prize winner, Who came to Cambridge to give a talk. Oppenheimer got to know him, got to discuss physics with him. Born was so impressed with Oppenheimer that he invited him over to Gottingen where Born taught in order to do a PhD. Most people take three years plus to do a PhD, Oppenheimer did his in under 18 months. And the result of it is a piece of work that is still

referred to now by people working in physical chemistry, the Born-Oppenheimer Approximation as it's known. He then sat about working on research papers. So within a very short time, he'd gone from being in a desperate situation in Cambridge, England, where he found himself adrift socially and intellectually, to being the star. Oppenheimer had a queue of American universities wanting to bring him over. - Oh, by that time, he was already regarded as a brilliant young quantum physicist who, you know, there weren't many people who could understand. You and I can't understand what quantum is about. - Because

he could pick and choose, he chose a very unusual arrangement where he spent half the year at Caltech and half the year at Berkeley. - So he went off to Berkeley and essentially founded the Department of Theoretical Physics and worked there for the next 11, 12, 13 years. And he never, you know, had more than a dozen graduate students to oversee but they all adored him. He turned out to be a lousy teacher initially. - There were elements there of traits that would influence how people reacted to Oppenheimer throughout his life, his extreme intelligence, his

refusal to make allowances for people who weren't quite as well educated or as clever as he was, and also a tendency to show off, you know? All of those would mark him for the rest of his life. - But he learned eventually to become charismatic, again to transform himself into a good teacher. - He was, by all accounts, an extremely charismatic teacher And you could see that by the way that they emulated his mannerisms and his manner of speech. That prefigured the motivating role that he had as the leader of Los Alamos. - You know,

he was a polymath. He loved reading French literature and poetry and John Dunn and Hemingway. And he also was intrigued, at one point, with Hinduism, so he took up the Gita and went to the only professor at Berkeley who knew Sanskrit and had this guy teach him Sanskrit So that he could read the Gita in the original. Yeah, he was very much a polymath, very weird guy. - When Oppenheimer arrived in Berkeley, he was not in the slightest bit interested in politics. He got to know Ernest Lawrence, who was an applied physicist, and in 1929,

amazed Lawrence by revealing that he had no idea that the great crash had happened. So uninformed was he about politics. This would change very soon after that and what would change it was his students. His students were coming from what was increasingly recognized as one of the up and coming, one of the leading physics departments in the country. If you were a student of Oppenheimer, that opened doors. But in the Depression, his students were finding that they couldn't get academic jobs, and they got jobs cleaning toilets, and they got jobs waiting tables and so on.

And they got to find out what it was like for working class people in the Depression era. And as they were still in touch with Oppenheimer, Oppenheimer got to know what it was like. - And he was very well read. And in the 1930s, with the rise of fascism in Europe, this was very worrisome to him and motivated him to become more political. - And almost all of his ex-students joined the Communist Party. Now, this is in the 1930s, and being a member of the Communist Party was not, in the 1930s, did not have anything

like the stigma that it would have in the 1950s. The Communist Party was not something you kept quiet about. It was not a big secret. And Oppenheimer, it's debatable whether he ever joined the Communist Party. His brother Frank did, and his brother Frank had a card. He was a card-carrying member of the Communist Party. Nobody's ever produced a Communist Party card identifying Robert Oppenheimer as that. - And then of course, there were some women involved who pushed him to become even more political. So he met Jean Tatlock in Berkeley, who was a young, intelligent graduate

student studying psychology, And they dated for four years off and on, very tempestuous relationship. And Jean Tatlock was a member of the party. - Bit by bit, he got drawn into politics, and actually throughout the '30s, he became more and more active. - Specifically, that meant contributing to the Republican side and the Spanish Civil War. So he gave money to buy an ambulance to be shipped to the Republican government in Madrid. He went to fundraisers. He probably, in the end, by 1938, '39, He was giving about $400 a year. - Although it didn't have the

stigma that it would have in the '50s, still the FBI was not very keen on it. And when the FBI learned that Oppenheimer would often be seen at the houses of these leading Communist Party members, they put people on Oppenheimer to follow him wherever he went. - And, you know, the FBI files, his FBI file runs to almost 10,000 pages and a lot of it is simply gossip, Some of it comes from wiretaps. Anyway, in all those 10,000 FBI pages, you know, the FBI had him under a microscope for years. There's no smoking gun, there's

no clear evidence that he ever joined the party, paid dues or had a membership card. Oppenheimer, he was too ethereal. I can't imagine him submitting himself to party orders from the local party chapter secretary, you know. He had too big of a ego. And then by 1942, You know, his ambition was to work on what we now know as the Manhattan Project because he was so fearful that the German physicists whom he knew, they could make it work and they were probably working on it. So given that ambition, he became much more careful about his

associations and donations to charitable causes, and, you know, he wanted that job in 1942. - This was the time of the Great Depression, the time of the Roosevelt's New Deal, And it was also the time when the Communist Party was supporting the notion of a popular front against fascism. So being involved with and sympathetic with the Communist Party at that time would not have seemed to Oppenheimer to be in conflict with being a loyal, patriotic American. He was both involved with the Communist Party and an admirer of FDR, of Roosevelt. I think, in some ways,

that political involvement, that consciousness of world events, what was taking place in Germany with the rise of the Nazis, The persecution of the Jews, I think all of that prepared him for the role of director of Los Alamos. - The leader of the Manhattan Project was General Groves. General Groves was a man of indomitable will. It used to be said that you couldn't create enough fissile uranium because you would need to refine uranium. Most uranium in the world is 238, but you need 235 to make an atomic bomb. You can create 235 from 238, but

it used to be said that you'd have to transform The whole of America into one big factory in order to do this. That's what Groves was determined to do. He bought up enormous areas of land in Tennessee, and he bought up enormous area of land in the state of Washington, and he built plants on those land specifically for enriching uranium, and he employed over a hundred thousand people. And when people give estimates of how much the Manhattan Project cost, 2 billion, whatever it is, Most of that money was spent on hiring people to work in

these plants. The most extraordinary thing, none of the people working in those plants realized what they were doing. They were trained to say, "Look, here's a machine," with all these controls on it, "when this needle goes this way, turn this knob. When it goes this way, turn that knob," and they had no idea what they were doing. - Here it is, General Groves, plutonium. - Well, that's the first time I've seen it, But if you don't mind, I wish you'd hold that under it because after all, there's about $50 million in that test tube. -

Groves also realized that he needed to get the scientists to work on the theory behind the bomb, exactly how you could create, 'cause no one had created an atomic bomb before. And so, you know, you needed not just experimental physicists, you needed people who understood the theory. And Groves went around the USA, interviewing the leading scientists of the day And was very disappointed because he couldn't understand a word they said. Until he went to California and he went to see Ernest Lawrence, Oppenheimer's friend, Oppenheimer was there, and Oppenheimer gave Groves such a beautifully clear explanation

as to how nuclear fission works and what critical mass is and why nuclear fission releases so much energy. Suddenly, Groves understood it, And he said, "I want that man in charge of this project." - He was a most unlikely candidate for being selected as the scientific director of Las Alamos. You know, he'd never managed more than a dozen graduate students. He had no experience, administratively speaking. - He'd never won a Nobel Prize. All these other scientists were Nobel Prize winners, and therefore it was said, could command the respect of all the other scientists. Oppenheimer was

not a Nobel Prize-winning physicist. Secondly, he was a disaster in the laboratory, So why should you make this man director of a laboratory? And then thirdly, J. Edgar Hoover had identified him as a threat to the security of the country. - Somehow the chemistry between, they were complete opposites but the chemistry between them just clicked. And I think, in part, this was because Groves knew nothing about quantum physics, knew nothing about what was involved technically but he saw here was this 34-year-old eccentric physicist who could talk in plain English, And he could do so because,

you know, he loved poetry and literature, and so he could communicate. - Groves wrote to J. Edgar Hoover saying, "Look, we don't want to continue this discussion anymore. I want security clearance given for this man. He's going to be head of this project," and Groves overran every other objection to Oppenheimer being in charge. And as it turned out, it was a stroke of genius on Groves's part because Oppenheimer, It's as if his whole life had been leading up to this point. - Oppe made the brilliant pitch that he says: You know, I understand you have

many security concerns, and so what you should do is build a secret city in the middle of the New Mexico desert and bring, you know, the best and the brightest physicists and chemists and engineers and put them in this little town and put a barbed wire around it and just let them freely talk amongst themselves on solving the problems, but you'd have complete secrecy. Well, Groves loved that idea. [laughs] It solved all his security concerns. And so he actually, soon thereafter, took Oppenheimer on a tour of New Mexico. Robert wanted the secret city to be

built there and he took Groves to Los Alamos Boys School, which was about 40 miles down the road from his cabin that he had started renting in 1929. [light music] And here, the Los Alamos Boys School had a dormitory and a conference room and, you know, the beginnings of, They had no idea how many people they would need. - It was Oppenheimer's insistence that this is done in Los Alamos, and again, there would be practical reasons for not doing it in Los Alamos. It's right in the hills, getting anything there would be a lot of

hard work, but he insisted and so you have this town built in Los Alamos. And Oppenheimer, as part of being the director of the laboratory, was also in charge of who got what house And the schooling arrangements for the children that would be brought there and the washing arrangements of the people. And as it turned out, he could have meetings on domestic arrangements, he could have meetings on plutonium, he could have meetings on, you know, how exactly you're going to drop this bomb, he could have meetings with von Neumann, the very brilliant Hungarian mathematician, about

the mathematics involved in fission, and very quickly, he could master all these fields. And so as it turned out, he was the perfect choice to be in charge of this operation. - [Kai] The initial estimate was maybe 100 people brought together, scientists. Well, it quickly grew to 1,000 and then 3,000. By the end of the war, there were 6,000 people in this secret city. He later said that, you know, there was no physics being discovered during World War II. It was all engineering. You know, the idea of fission had been discovered in 1939, So it

was an open secret among physicists in Germany and Japan and America that this was theoretically possible to build a gadget that would have an enormous explosive power but how to do it became an engineering problem. - The building of the device, the design of the device, the design of the bomb and the building of the bomb at Los Alamos depended on receiving the fissionable materials from these other sites. There was tremendous time pressure on Los Alamos to be ready with their device, with their mechanism, For when sufficient quantities of fissionable materials would arrive, to have

this thing ready so that it could be used in the war. - Rather strangely, Oppenheimer turned out to be a good manager. No one would've predicted this. He was the archetypal ivory tower academic, but it turned out that he could manage people. - Oh, he again had transformed himself into a charismatic leader. He had a signature pork pie hat, A good eye for drama and theatrics, but he was, you know, he cut a good figure. He was handsome and charming when he wanted to be, particularly to people below him. And at Los Alamos, he sort

of treated his fellow physicists and chemists and engineers as fellow students. So he would come into the room where everyone was arguing about, should we do this or should we go this way, or how do we fix this problem, And he would just stand at the back of the room and listen. And then after 30 minutes or an hour, he would intervene and say, "Well, I think what you're all saying is this," and he would manage in a very brilliant, concise way to show them the path forward was. - The accounts of the scientists who

worked there often present it as the best time of their lives, the most engaged they've ever been, the closest and most energized scientific experience that they've ever had. And they say, in their reminiscences, That that had a great deal to do with Oppenheimer. - [Kai] Los Alamos became his magical city on the hill. He was the king of it. He really enjoyed the work. And, you know, social life revolved all around events, like they had a theater, they had a grocery store, but most of the socializing took place in private homes. And Oppenheimer, you know,

had parties all the time, encouraged people to have a release. [upbeat music] You know, he continued to go horseback riding. [upbeat music continues] - [Charles] They would ski in the mountains. Many of the scientists were from Europe, Enrico Fermi was an avid skier. They would enjoy what New Mexico had to offer in terms of the outdoors, cross-country skiing, hiking. There were many parties. It was a very young community, young people, college age, graduate student age in their 20s, in their 30s. And there were many parties, they would drink a lot, they would dance, Edward Teller

would play the piano. In some ways, it was like college life, I think. - And there was a lot of drinking, [laughs] so... But it was a weird place and he was... He was in charge of it all. - And so the job of getting the bomb built was really just a matter of 18 months. They moved in in '43, by the spring of '45, they were ready to test the first weapon, which they tested at the Trinity Site in southern New Mexico, Which is an extraordinary achievement. The Nazis spent five years and didn't even

get a working reactor. - [Narrator] Finally, after three years work, the atomic experts were ready to test their first bomb. In the control shack was Dr. J.R. Oppenheimer. - The automatic controls got it now. Rob, this time, the stakes are really high. - It's going to work all right, Robert, and I'm sure we'll never be sorry for it. - Well, in 40 seconds, we'll know. [suspenseful music] - [Scientist] Minus 30 seconds. [dramatic music] [dramatic music continues] - [Kai] There was a great deal of pressure leading up to the Trinity test. Rationally, they had every reason

to believe that it would work, the gadget would work as expected. But, you know, this is the first time anyone had attempted this thing, so there was a lot of tension and particularly on the night before the explosion. [upbeat dramatic music] There's this very spooky photo of Oppenheimer in his pork pie hat in the shadows, and you see the sphere of the Trinity weapon, and he's leaning in and you see his sharp, angular nose. He was up there on the top of the tower, inspecting, making sure that all the plugs were in the right place.

- [Clay] The first question was, would it work at all? So they're all nervous wrecks. They witnessed it from a long distance away, and they were told to use these special shields and so on. Not everyone did. [upbeat dramatic music] - [Kai] And, you know, early that morning, well, they were outside the bunker lying on the desert floor, and Frank was by his side, Frank Oppenheimer. And, you know, they witnessed this massive explosion and the mushroom cloud. [atomic bomb booming] - But couple of things, they said that they had no idea that it would produce

this kind of beautiful cloud. I mean, you hate to talk about it that way, But it's beautiful, number one, and that the light flash came first and then the heat and only much later, the sound. And so it wasn't a single event, it was an event that kept unfolding. - Oppenheimer returned to Frank and simply said, "Well, it worked." Now he's known, you know, he has a theatrical side to him, so at some point in the next few days, he was interviewed by a "New York Times" reporter who was assigned to write a story. -

Few people laughed, few people cried, most people were silent. - [Kai] And he, I think, playfully, when this reporter asked him what went through his mind when he saw the Trinity test, Oppenheimer playfully said, "I thought of the Gita stanza." - I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Gita, "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." I suppose we all thought that one way or another. - [Kai] [laughs] You know, a nice line, but that's not what he said at the Trinity test. But that's become part of the lore. - Then

in August 1945, they used the uranium bomb on Hiroshima and they used the plutonium bomb on Nagasaki. The Hiroshima bomb turned out to be more deadly. Now, when they tested the bomb in Trinity, the scientists were all delighted that it worked. And then among several of them, there was this ominous sense that they were going to be responsible for the deaths of tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of people. Oppenheimer was in favor of using the bomb because an argument that he'd got from his old friend Niels Bohr, Niels Bohr was very great Danish physicist and

the man whom Oppenheimer admired above anybody else, both as a scientist and as a human being, and Niels Bohr came to Los Alamos and would discuss with Oppenheimer the politics of the bomb. And he said to Oppenheimer, well, what you are doing could be the most dreadful thing that humanity is evident, or it could be the best. And his argument for it being the best Was that it could potentially put an end to war by demonstrating a weapon so powerful that nations would resolve their differences without going to war rather than risk unleashing the power

of this again. Now, in order for that argument to work, it has to be seen just how dreadful this weapon is, and I think that's why Oppenheimer was in favor of using the weapon against civilians at Hiroshima. - But this is, again, you know, a curious thing about Robert Oppenheimer. He was capable of compartmentalizing his emotions And his intellect and his responsibilities. After the Trinity test and before Hiroshima, before August 6th, he's walking to work one day and his secretary, Ruth Wilson, she was walking by his side and suddenly she heard Robert saying, in a

whisper, "those poor little people, those poor little people." Wilson turned to him and said, "Robert, what do you mean?" And he said, "Oh, you know, all those women and children, you know, when they drop this bomb on a city, it's going to..." And then he fell silent. Well, that was the very same week that he briefed the bombardiers that were going to be on the mission to drop those bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as it turned out, and he was instructing them in a sort of coldly intellectual fashion at exactly what altitude the bomb should

be detonated so that it would have the maximum destructive power, and that it should be dropped on the center of a city. So he both understood the ethical consequences of killing all these civilians, a whole city, And yet he did his duty. - And so in some unpleasant sense that really does call into question a lot of strategic thinking and morality, we used them anyway. And you can certainly say that the use of the second bomb at Nagasaki just three days after the first one was premature because it didn't give the Japanese time to absorb.

They weren't really even sure what had happened from Hiroshima. And so if you'd waited two weeks and said, "We can just keep doing this as long as you want," that's one thing, but three days later is pretty quick. And so we built it, we're gonna use it, we can't let the war end before we use it, and we're gonna use one of each to make sure that they both work, and we're trying to warn Stalin about our capacity, so that it gets very, very, very complex and thick and morally troubling the farther you look into

what happens after Alamogordo. - And after Hiroshima, although unlike after Trinity, there wasn't this euphoric feeling among the scientists and shared by Oppenheimer, it was a much more somber mood. Oppenheimer never felt that he made a mistake in being in favor of using the bomb against civilians, even after the war when he was invited to do Japan. And the thing that Japanese journalists most wanted to know was, do you regret building the bomb? Oppenheimer still say, "No, I don't." Immediately after the Second World War, Oppenheimer was the most, he replaced Einstein as the most famous

scientist in the United States, and his photograph was everywhere. - Oh, he was a national celebrity. He was a very famous man, was lauded on the covers of "TIME" and "LIFE." He decided very quickly, you know, after Hiroshima, he fell into a deep depression. - And it's very notable that after the war, he dedicated himself to politics. He did no original science after the war. He still kept his directorship of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, but he himself spent most of his time in Washington, DC, meeting with politicians and urging upon them ways

in which they could use the atomic bomb as a means for peace rather than war, fulfilling Niels Bohr's vision of what the bomb could achieve. - The late 1940s, before 1949, people are still trying to figure out what's the way forward. Are we in some kind of Cold War or is it something else? Is there a chance to avoid total confrontation with the Soviet Union? Is there a chance to avoid a sort of military dominance of nuclear technology? - And Oppenheimer drew up this ambitious plan, which for a short time was accepted by the US

government to be presented to the United Nations, which would involve communal ownership of all uranium and would also involve no nation being able to build atomic weapons. - [Kai] The realization that this had happened And what he had done had resulted in, well, probably close to a quarter million deaths over time from radiation and the initial burn, that sunk in. And I think it was hard for him to know what to do with that knowledge. - The difficulty with Oppenheimer in this whole period is, on the one hand, he is an independently minded person, and

he has the mindset of the scientist and the scientist's interests very close to his heart. On the other hand, he's become a very important person within the sort of military advising structure. He's sort of the top of the pyramid when it comes to scientists whose opinions are being taken seriously about things like the use of atomic bombs, future policy. He is the face of this new technology, and so he doesn't have either the inclination or the freedom to totally go against the whole system. So Oppenheimer's approach through all of this is to try and bend

it in ways that he thinks it could be bent into. - And he gets an appointment with Harry Truman in the Oval Office. He was very gracious, but he had a habit of just bracing up in the presence of authority and people who clearly thought that they were smarter than him [laughs] in positions of power. And so here's the president of the United States and Oppenheimer's mission is to try to convince Harry Truman that we need to contain this weapon and establish an international atomic agency that would own in a sovereign way, own any factory,

any laboratory anywhere in the world Engaged in atomic research. You know, so he's making this argument to Harry Truman, and Truman interrupts and says, "Well, Dr. Oppenheimer, when do you think the Russians are going to get the bomb?" And Oppenheimer is kind of stunned and says, "Well, I'm not sure, Sir, but eventually." And Harry responds, "Well, I know. Never." And Oppenheimer, like, understands in that moment that Harry Truman understands nothing. - Oppenheimer gets very frustrated with Truman, who's not a great mind, And he blurts out, "Something's gotta be done. After all, I have blood on

my hands." And Truman stopped the meeting right then and had Oppenheimer escorted out, and he said, "Don't bring that fellow around here again. He may have built the bomb, but I'm the one who set it off." And what Truman was saying is, "What is this [speaks faintly]? He's taking himself pretty seriously here. I and I alone made that decision to use the weapons in war, and he comes in here whining and bleeding about his conscience And tell and tried to talk to me into being more sensitive about this?" - [Clapper] 2201, take one. - [Interviewer]

When he was offered the work on the hydrogen bomb, he did not want to do it, yet you said to go ahead to work on the hydrogen bomb. - That's correct. Well, he was like all the scientists are, they discover these things and find out how terrible they are, and then they don't wanna take any blame For the consequences, if there is blame. But that didn't make any difference. He didn't have to make the decision, I made it. - So Oppenheimer blew it with Harry Truman but he continued to work to try to restore some

sanity to sort of nuclear policy. - And then the Soviet Union set off an atomic bomb and that ended all of that discussion practically overnight. Nobody really was expecting it to be quite as soon as it was. This sets off a whole debate over what the appropriate American response ought to be, And one of the big options that's brought up is, "Let's build a hydrogen bomb." So this is a weapon that uses not just nuclear fission, not just the splitting of atoms, like the atomic bomb, but uses the energy of an atomic bomb to set

off nuclear fusion reactions like those that take place in the sun. And this is a weapon that can be a thousand times more powerful than an atomic bomb. A couple days afterwards, Scotland Yard announces that they have arrested Klaus Fuchs, a British scientist who had confessed To being a Soviet spy in the United States during World War II. And so this is a real shocking revelation that comes right on the heels of these shocking and painful discussions. You go from the Soviets have the atomic bomb, should we make an H-bomb, okay, we're gonna make an

H-bomb, oh, by the way, you have no secrets. And the more that came out about Klaus Fuchs himself, the worse it seemed. Klaus Fuchs was a brilliant mathematical physicist. He was very highly placed at Los Alamos. He had a near photographic memory. He was an extremely quiet, reserved person at Los Alamos. He never really talked about his opinions on anything. He was so well respected that he was used as a babysitter by many of the other scientists when they would go and have parties or things of this nature. And to discover that this guy who

had been core to many of the technical discussions and had even invented some of the core parts of the bomb, he was one of the co-holders of the patent On gaseous diffusion, which is how they enriched uranium for the Hiroshima bomb, I mean, this is a guy who's at the center of the Manhattan Project in so many ways and it turned out the entire time he was working very hard for the United States, but he was also working very hard for the Soviet Union. - Suddenly, it was possible to imagine a hydrogen bomb being built.

Now, hydrogen bomb, there's almost no limit to how big it can be. So it could be hundreds of times bigger than And more deadly than the Hiroshima bomb. This was discussed at the highest levels. The question was, should the US government and the armed forces go ahead with an accelerated program to create the hydrogen bomb? Oppenheimer argued against it on the grounds that no one in their right minds would ever use such a bomb, so what would be the point of creating a bomb a hundred, a thousand times more powerful than the one that destroyed

Hiroshima when that bomb itself has shown itself to be so powerful, You don't want to use it again ever. [foreboding music] And so Oppenheimer argued against this program, at which point he'd already upset the leading figures in the army and the government. He now became under suspicion by them. They began to think, "Well, why is Oppenheimer trying to sabotage a program when we know that the Soviets are busy trying to build a hydrogen bomb?" And so a lot of influential figures in the armed forces and the government Came to think that Oppenheimer wasn't really on

their side. He was really working for the Soviets. And this suspicion grew in the McCarthy period, in the mid '50's, early to mid '50's, and led to a security case being held, which would assess Oppenheimer's standing. [dramatic ominous music] - The real instigator for the 1954 security hearings was Lewis Strauss. Strauss, however, was not only the chairman of the board of trustees at the institute, he was the chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission Appointed by the newly elected Eisenhower, and Oppenheimer and he clashed and just bad chemistry. He had an enormous ego. He demanded attention.

Oppenheimer wasn't giving it to him and wasn't being polite, and he was pulling all the strings. He pointed the gray panel members who would preside over the hearing. He brought in the prosecutor, there shouldn't have been a prosecutor at all. It wasn't a trial, it was a security hearing. Oppenheimer was stunned that he was being questioned like this. Here, he'd been nine years earlier, a national celebrity. - And initially, they basically say to Oppenheimer, "You know, you don't have to have any kind of hearing. We'll just take your security clearance and you'll just retire, and

that'll be that and we'll be done with it." And Oppenheimer, somewhat to their surprise, wants a hearing. He wants to contest these charges. - In fact, actually, there was a moment When Oppenheimer had decided he was going to go through and defend his reputation, and he called Albert into his office, Albert Einstein, and explained to him that he had to be absent. He was gonna be down in Washington for a few weeks and there was this security hearing, and they were questioning my loyalty. And Einstein argued with him and said, "Robert, you don't need to

do this. Just walk away from it. You don't need these people." And Oppenheimer said, "No, I have to defend my reputation. I have to retain my security clearance so that I can influence national policy. It's very important," and he walked out. And Einstein turned to his secretary and said, "There goes a nar," the Yiddish word for fool. [laughs] - In a security clearance hearing, you have a group of people who are gonna go over every inch of your life, including and especially your absolute worst decisions and worse than lowest moments. And they're gonna do so

With the entire power of the FBI behind them and military intelligence and maybe even the CIA or something like this. This is gonna be really ugly. - So he goes to Washington and there's this horrible witch hunt of a trial. It's just atrocious. - Once the hearings get started, it doesn't matter that they were started under false pretenses. It doesn't matter that they were started in a way to try to rig it against him, and they were. They were entirely rigged against him from the beginning. There were illegal activities taking part during the hearing. They

were wire tapping Oppenheimer's private discussions with his lawyers and then giving that information to the people who were arguing against him and his lawyers at the hearing so they would know ahead of time what he was gonna do the next day. Totally illegal. The three categories are value in our character, loyalty, and association. Loyalty is pretty easy, I guess, right? Oppenheimer's working for the US government. Nobody really has any credible accusation that he's not loyal. Character is tricky because he lies to the security officers and makes other kind of blunders. So that's actually a pretty

sore point for him and then associations are impossible. I mean, half of his family members are communists. Many of them renounced it and left it but the association is there. It's very hard to get around that. The character problems are really dark. I mean, one of the things he does during the Manhattan Project, during World War II, while he's running Los Alamos is he goes to visit his ex-girlfriend and spends the night over at her house, the ex-girlfriend who was a fellow traveler and sort of introduced him to communism. And they ask him like, "Was

this good judgment to spend and sleep with your communist ex-girlfriend while you're running an atomic bomb project? Is this good judgment?" And Oppenheimer says, "Well, I don't think it was bad judgment. I mean, she wasn't really a communist. I know she was a spy," but this looks bad. This looks bad no matter how you slice it. They ask him, "Why did you lie to the security officers?" And he says, "Because I was an idiot." That's not a good answer. - Anyway, it was just a disaster. And Kitty, who was, you know, loyally present throughout this

whole affair, Was actually, you know, got up on the witness stand and was interrogated herself. She did better in defending Oppenheimer than Oppenheimer did himself. She was very feisty, insulting. She cut right through to the absurdity of the charges and yet, you know, the panel voted 2 to 1, relatively close, to the conclusion that Oppenheimer was probably a loyal American but nevertheless a security risk, And so his security clearance should be denied. It was a real tragedy. - Which put Oppenheimer in the crazy situation of having in his office in Princeton papers that he had

written which he was no longer allowed now to consult, and it tarnished his reputation for a very long time. And even now, when I was working on my book, when I went to the States, people would ask me, "What evidence have you found that Oppenheimer was working for the communists?" And the answer to that is none at all. And in fact, the fact that Oppenheimer was kept under such close surveillance and was held in such suspicion by leading members of the armed forces and the government, the fact that they produced no evidence that he was

working for the Communist Party is itself pretty good evidence that he wasn't. - And this was all in the context of American anti-communist hysteria and McCarthyism. And this destroyed Oppenheimer's power, destroyed his career as a scientific advisor, marginalized him, excluded him From, you know, having any involvement with government and really with the world of nuclear weapons and policy. And, you know, that's what really made Oppenheimer into this tragic figure. [light upbeat music] - [Clay] Now Oppenheimer suffered a humiliation at the hands of the Atomic Energy Commission and the United States government, which no person should

be forced to suffer and certainly not someone who was innocent of the crimes that were attributed to him. The shattering of his confidence In the United States government, in the basic fairness of the universe had to be gigantic. - [Kai] And he became a pariah. He was disinvited from scheduled university lectures. And the humiliation of what he had gone through, he just thought, "Well, I need to get the family out, and we'll all go on an adventure," and he chose to go to St. John in the Virgin Islands. Now Oppenheimer goes down to St. John,

the FBI is alerted to his movements. They send an FBI agent to the island to monitor with binoculars, Scout out if there are any Russian submarines nearby who might ferret him away. [upbeat music] He fell in love with St. John, began going back there every summer, every December, January. He spent a lot of time down there in the '50s and early '60s. [upbeat music] [hopeful music] - [Eleanor] "Two years before we had sold a little land at the east end of our beach, The atomic physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer and his wife Kitty, they lived in

Princeton where Oppenheimer was then directing the Institute for Advanced Studies in absentia. They were trying to build an unwieldy beach cottage designed for them by Wallace Harrison who had previous architectural experience designing the United Nations buildings in New York. For several years, the Oppenheimers had been spending vacations on St. John. Kitty wrote to me in despair, they wanted to come down in June And check on the punitive progress of their construction, where could they possibly stay. I first met the Oppenheimers in 1956, one day when I went alone up to Trunk Bay for lunch and

they were there on a holiday. Robert's security clearance had been canceled two years before. I hadn't followed the case with much attention, being far more concerned at the time with infinite activities than with un-American ones. I had only a dim impression that a great man had been brought low. I was curious to observe him. I saw it once that he and his wife were the most curious couple I had ever observed. They were got up in routine tourist garb, button shirts and shorts and sandals, but they looked like nothing human, too thin and frail and

pale for earthly life. They looked as if they were down from Mars, not Princeton, or as if some bright kid had made them up with matchsticks and his chem craft set. Kitty was the more humanoid of the two, although she seemed to have no features Except for her dark eyes. Her voice was too deep and hoarse to emanate from her tiny chest. And helplessly weak as she was, she had the truculent stance of a heavyweight pugilist. I heard from other Trunk Bay guests that she had a drinking problem. The problem was that she drank a

lot and got drunk, and that drunk or sober, she was often staggeringly rude. 'Aren't you hot with all that hair?' she croaked at me on introduction then returned to her communion with a bottle of Danish beer. Robert looked astoundingly like Pinocchio and he moved as jerkily as a marionette on strings, but there was nothing wooden about his manner. He exuded warmth and sympathy and courtesy along with the fumes of his famous pipe. His voice was gentle, almost inaudible, and it became softer the more he wanted to be heard. He asked me what my husband did,

'He worked for Rockefeller.' Robert mused with many pretentious puffs at his pipe. At last, his voice was spellbinding whisper, he said, 'I too have taken money for doing harm.' This struck me as a stunning one-liner." - It was, for each day, the dream of an open air place. It was one large open space, and when the place was closed down, it had this aluminium roof that was flaps, that would flap down to the floor and bolt into the floor and all you have to do when you came was you unbolted the flaps and then swung

them back up so that they became the awning over the porch. It is absolutely beautiful wild with the view straight out into the water. But they really spent more summers here Once they had their house built at Hawksnest. Every August come the anniversaries of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, he became very silent. It was a sad time for him. - It was escape from the tensity of his life in the United States and from the sense that he'd been betrayed by people that he had trusted and people who should have trusted him, but I think he was

always a lonely man. I think that the high water mark of his conviviality Was Los Alamos. But I think before and after that, he was essentially a lonely man, lonely in the depths of his thinking. And, I mean, we have to face it, Oppenheimer was not a mature man. He was locked into kind of a permanent adolescence because he had never been normalized in the way the rest of us get normalized in our communities. He had never really participated in any community that wasn't an artificial one in his life. And so he's sufficiently lonely and

eccentric That he's looking for safe spaces, and Princeton was a certain kind of a safe space but St. John's was a much greater one, and when you're there, it's, you know, beautiful emerald seas and sands and a native population that couldn't care less about whatever your life is back in the United States. And so I think that that was a kind of a Shangri-la for him that he probably would've had, even if there had not been the security clearance, that he was just a man who was not comfortable in routine social settings. - [Kai] He

loved it. Again, it was sort of like New Mexico, it was spartan. It was much better weather, [chuckles] but he loved the sailing. [water crashing] - Oppenheimer's reputation was restored by his appearance on the Ed Murrow show, "See It Now." - [Narrator] This is "See It Now," edited by the partnership of Murrow and Friendly, presented by the Aluminum Company of America. - [Ray] Ed Murrow had this idea of going to Princeton and interviewing all the famous people in Princeton Including Einstein and Oppenheimer. And he came back to New York City from Princeton, saying to his

friend, "We've only got one usable interview here," which is the one with Oppenheimer. Just as Groves had found at the beginning of the Manhattan Project, Oppenheimer stood head and shoulder above all his fellow scientists in terms of charisma and in terms of clarity. He was able to explain things in a simple way and in a way that held people's attention. - [Ed Murrow] This is a brief report on the work and purpose of the Institute as seen through the eyes and mind of one man, it's director, Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer. Dr. Oppenheimer, why don't we

begin by your telling me a little about this Institute for Advanced Study, how it began? - Well, I will try. Of course, it began at the time when I wasn't anywhere near, and it's already a subject for historical research. I'm about to find someone To see if he can find out how it began. - I have heard you describe it as a decompression chamber. - Well, it is, for many people. There are no telephones ringing, and you don't have to go to committee meetings, and you don't have to meet classes, and the... It's especially for

the few people who are here for life. The first years are quite remarkable because most people depend on being interrupted in order to live, but the work is so hard and failure is, of course, I guess, an inevitable condition of success. - Oppenheimer charmed Ed Murrow, and through Ed Murrow's program, charmed the whole of the United States of America. Suddenly, he was everybody's favorite scientist again, and he got invitations to give lectures on anything he wanted to talk about. He would talk about Hinduism, he would talk about anything he liked, and he would have thousands

of people attend these lectures. He had this very arresting sentence in one of these lectures, "As physicists, we have known sin." And what he meant was that now, because the theory of fission and fusion was being used to make such deadly weapons, you are dealing not only with the theory of the fundamental parts of the universe, you're also potentially producing work that can be used to kill hundreds of thousands of people, so in that way, the physicist have known sin. And Oppenheimer gave a series of fascinating lectures in which he would discuss these ideas. And

he was invited over to London to give the Reith lectures for the BBC In which he chose a similar theme, and he became enormously popular. - He no longer had the authority of an insider within the networks of government who knew what were the latest developments with nuclear weapons and who could speak with that sort of expertise, but he became a spokesman for the role of science in relation to modern culture. - That was a brief glimpse of a 2 1/2 hour conversation with Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer, Director of the Institute for Advanced Studies. One

thing that impressed this reporter about that institute, was that he has never heard so many people say, I don't know. These men recognize mystery, they welcome it and they wrestle with it. Goodnight and good luck. - And after the hearings, joined and actively participated in an organization called the Congress for Cultural Freedom, which was funded by the CIA. But many prominent intellectuals Were involved with the Congress for Cultural Freedom in so far as it's sought to promote liberal intellectual culture as an antidote to what they argued was the totalitarian culture of the Soviet Union. And

this group of intellectuals was where Oppenheimer kind of found a sense of belonging and recognition after his marginalization in the security hearings. - Throughout his life, Oppenheimer was attracted to places of extraordinary beauty and remoteness. And one thing that's very striking about these places, The Virgin Islands, the plateau in New Mexico, is that they are the very opposite of where he grew up. [water rushing] And I'm inclined to think that he was looking precisely for that. He was looking precisely for something that couldn't be more different to the Upper West Side of Manhattan. And I

think he found it in the countryside of New Mexico above all, which I think remained for him, I think that countryside around the Rio Grande Remained for him his ideal, in its wildness, in its beauty, and in its remoteness. [light upbeat music] He had a little hut overlooking the valley. This is a remote area, and you weren't going to bump into other people there, whereas he grew up in the Upper West Side of New York where all the people around him were part of the same community. Somebody wrote a book about that community called "Our

Crowd." They recognized each other as being part of the same crowd, though she's part of our crowd, and I think he didn't want to be part of anybody's crowd. [light music] The strain of working at Los Alamos was that he chainsmoked. And you can see, he was always a slender man, but you can see in the pictures of Los Alamos and afterwards, he's skeletal. He's so thin and he never looked very well. He died in his 60s, but he looked like a man in his 80s. The cancer caught up with him shortly before his 63rd

birthday. - [Kai] And Kitty knew that he wanted his ashes scattered there. So some months after his death in '67, she motored out towards a point called Carvel Rock in Hawksnest Bay, just off the shore from where their cabin was. [light music] [water crashing] - My parents had been arranging for a boat to take Dr. O's ashes with Kitty out to Carvel Rock, Which they did. - They cut the motor and instead of scattering the ashes, Kitty just dumps the urn, still closed up, into the water. [water crashing] There's a splash and then it bobs

up, [laughs] and eventually it sinks. They watch for a while and then it sinks. So his ashes are in an urn on the floor of Hawksnest Bay. [light music] - It will probably haunt me still for the rest of my life. She was a great friend. She had just turned 33. That she was depressed for a lot of her adult life, I think is understandable when you understand what happened to her. One of her dreams was to be an interpreter at the UN, and the FBI said, no. It's like they were visiting so-called sins of

her father upon her and that just was not fair. [Erva speaks faintly] Anyway, I lost a great friend And the world lost a great mind as well. [light music] - There is no key that is going to unlock the mysteries of Oppenheimer. He's always going to be mysterious. His friend Rabi said that there's no single personality that is Oppenheimer. There's all these sharp shafts that make up Oppenheimer. But he's somebody who the outside world insisted was a German Jew, and he said, "No, I'm neither German nor am I Jewish." He insisted on defining himself. -

The tragedy of Oppenheimer is that he was so deeply evolved ethically and yet so socially awkward and so brilliant at the same time that these things were never fully integrated into his character. - He was able to talk philosophy with the leading philosophers of his time. He wrote poetry, and he was an expert on French poetry. Scientifically, he most likely, if he'd lived a couple of years longer, Would've been awarded a Nobel Prize, and here's something that's so typical of Oppenheimer. What he would've been awarded a Nobel Prize for are three papers that he himself

attributed no importance to whatsoever. This is three papers that he wrote in 1939 on gravitational collapse, black holes. He was the first person to give a complete mathematical description of what happens when a massive star collapses in on itself and becomes a black hole. - And he was the creator of the atomic bomb, This use of science for absolute destruction, this creation of a weapon that makes hell on earth, a weapon of absolute terror. So Oppenheimer, I think, really represents the development of reason and of a culture of reason which has turned against itself and

become irrational and become destructive. And that was the dilemma that Oppenheimer was wrestling with and that's what he represents, I think, for us today. - No, he's an iconic figure. The 1954 trial makes him much more interesting than just the father of the atomic bomb, but it's also interesting that as the father of the atomic bomb, the man who built the two weapons that destroyed two Japanese cities, he then spent really the rest of his life trying to contain the bomb. - He was an extraordinary polymath, and he refused to be bound by limitations and

categorizations. And I think recognizing the value of such a man at this time Is quite an important symbolic thing to do. - And that's the price of genius, I think, it's when the hero is partly responsible for the fall that we have through tragedy, and that's why we can't look away. - It is still an open question whether humanity is going to survive the nuclear age, and Oppenheimer would think this is a sad legacy. Finally, just his personality, his ability to transform himself to overcome his youthful psychological crisis, his ability to become a good professor,

A charismatic lecturer after being a terrible one, his ability to run Las Alamos and be revered and admired by everyone who worked there, all of whom, you know, anyone we interviewed who had been there said, you know, the bomb never would've happened in 2 1/2 years if it hadn't been for Oppenheimer. Again, he transforms himself into this amazing administrator and yet there's this tragedy at the end of his life, and he's, you know, publicly humiliated, and that too is a important story. You know, America goes through these periods of historical craziness, and McCarthyism was one

such disease and Oppenheimer became the chief victim of it. [upbeat dramatic music] [upbeat dramatic music continues]