Hey everybody Welcome to the Wonder World The Remnant radio in this program we're interviewing David Platt it's going to be an exciting program you stay tuned you are watching The Remnant radio a crowdfunded show where we interview pastors teachers historians and theologians from different churches and denominations my name is Joshua Lewis and this is my co-host Michael rre together we want to help you break Outside of your theological Echo Chambers if you're interested in learning about history theology or the gifts of the Spirit this is the show for you everybody we've got an exciting program
for today talking with David and his book don't hold back it's going to be a great program but before we dive into the subject matter I want to remind you that we are entirely crowdfunded which means if you want to support the channel the only way to really do that Is jumping on the newsletter newsletter is free to join on but there's a lot of extra content that's there on the newsletter things like conferences courses uh man extra patreon exclusive content all that can be found in the newsletter which is in the description of this
video also quick reminder make sure to like and share this video around so that people uh that are in your friend Circle can be edified by this kind of content without further Ado I Want to introduce you to my guests for today and my host I've got David plat there on the left I've got Michael rry on the right Michael you're a big David plat fan tell us are you excited about this interview yeah yeah absolutely well I you know I love the mission of of Jesus the the global cause of Christ the Nations and
uh you know it's we have so much we have wealth here in America we have we have comfort even though I mean we dayto day tend to feel more Uncomfortable but relative to the rest of the world um we have a a pretty cush lifestyle and uh and so Dave David really I think challenges us to engage in the global Mission and uh just David I appreciate you for that and uh thankful for your ministry so uh for some of our viewers if they don't know who you are maybe David you could just tell us
a little bit about yourself and uh tell us about uh talk to us about yourself but also maybe kind of Introduce us to your most recent book don't hold back yeah so I uh well I live in Metro DC uh my wife and I have six kids ages 17 down to two and uh and I so I'm pastor of a church one of the pastors at mlan Bible Church in Metro DC uh we have kind of locations uh spread out around DC I've been here uh about six years and um yeah that's what this book
that I wrote most recently don't hold back is written out of the Overflow of uh Shepherding this church on Mission in the middle of Metro DC especially in the last few years we we have about a 100 different nations represented in our church and uh which means that's a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds with a lot of different perspectives and in a city like Metro Washington DC a lot of uh different positions on a lot of different things um obviously all holding fast to the word but coming to some different Conclusions
and convictions on some things that are not primary uh in our faith so all that to say holding that together Around Jesus and uh and saying how can we make sure that what's uniting us together is truly Jesus and his spirit and his word and not uh the ideals and ways and preferences maybe we even have in this world surrounding oursel with the people who just look like us or Think Like Us on everything um so it's been beautiful and at the Same time hard and uh and in the process so the kind of subtitle
of that book uh leaving behind the American gospel to follow Jesus fully I do think that if we're not careful we can uh exchange the biblical gospel and I've seen this uh for what I call an American gospel that uh so instead of exalting Jesus above everything in the world actually prostitutes Jesus for the sake of comfort and power and politics and prosperity in our country and we missed The whole point of what it means to be a follow of Jesus in the process so anyway glad to dive into that more but that's a little
summary and then I lead radical uh which is uh so it's a book that I wrote years ago but it's a ministry that's focused on mobilizing equipping the church to uh to be on Mission in the world to live for what matters most and specifically to get the gospel to about three billion people who have little to know knowledge of it right now yeah now Tell us a little bit more about just that your the context you're you're pastoring this church lots of diverse views you talked about essential non-essential and the kind of non-essential that
gets lumped into the cultural packaging of what is generally evangelicalism here in the west I mean I assume Essentials are like nyine Father Almighty maker of heaven of Earth One Lord Jesus Christ Holy Spirit The Giver of Life like I assume that it's like you Know essential credle formulations but maybe as as you see it kind of Define what is uh the essentials of what is the gospel and then uh the kind of tertiary things that are in orbit maybe in evangelicalism that may be good bad neutral but we actually make main issues could you
maybe Identify some of those for us yeah sure I'd love to like the we uh we talk about it in our church this is like first chapter in the book but three different buckets like things that Unite us together as just followers of Jesus so that would be the go go El the I don't want to assume uh uh yeah the greatest news in all the world that God has made each of us for personal relationship with him that we've all turned aside from God in his ways to ourselves and our own ways and as
a result we are broken people in a broken world but God loves us so much that he came to us in the person of Jesus to die on the cross for our sin to rise from The dead so that anybody anywhere who turns from their sin and trusts in Jesus will be forgiven of their sin and fully restored to relationship with God uh to live as a reflection of his love so this is this is the gospel and God's word the authority of God's word so that which is clear and Direct in God's word so
that's kind of first bucket this is what holds together followers of Jesus then second bucket we talk about as uh things that hold us together like in our local Church which may be different among some different Christians like I don't expect every follower of Jesus in Metro DC to come to our church where we do things a certain way where we have a certain polity uh where we uh have certain convictions about things like baptism or uh so that's where we we divide into different churches sometimes as Christians uh over some of these secondary things
and that's okay we can still be followers of Jesus uh but just Be in different churches and still a part of the global church together and then the third bucket would be things that even in the same local church we just agree to disagree about and uh so as an example of how that played out over the last few years like I mean at one point uh this was back in 2020 just made this statement like we're not going to divide as a church over how you vote in this election um it's not that you
might not have strong opinions or even Convictions about what that uh voting calculation will look like in your life but that's not what unites us as a church like that's third bucket um and and I heard people saying like you can't be a Christian and vote for fill in the blank and uh and and and different people would kind of put different names in the blank there and it was like wait a second whoa we've just taken like how you vote in an election in 2020 in the United States of America and put it in
the first bucket of you can't be a Christian and do that like that's that's not a first bucket issue and what I was saying is that's not a second bucket issue in our church like we unite together Around Jesus we have in our local church around certain convictions but this is in the third bucket and I think our our our muscles in the church for uh how to how to keep those buckets separate and how to love people and understand where people are Coming from across different buckets those muscles just haven't been strong uh and
it's been beautiful to see those muscles strengthen through a lot of hard days actually uh in our church family um but to come to a much better place where we're like clearly United Around Jesus and not some of these uh political preferences that we might be prone to unite around but all that to say that's kind of how we look at it in our church family and and it's been really helpful To remember okay let's love others across those buckets and even those who are not in the first bucket like don't believe the gospel obviously
we want to love them well and we want to hold fast to our convictions as followers of Jesus we want to do it with compassion in the world around us yeah that's good you know Gavin ortland I think he actually stole this language from Albert Mohler The theological triage you know of like hey these are the tiered issues and that That comes right in line with what you're saying these different buckets um and I think it's interesting you also mentioned just kind of the after feed muscles we are in the kind of social media age
where we're constantly being catechized and discipled by politics that are on every Outlet whether it be Facebook or X or uh Instagram etc etc and we're constantly being shaped by that and those muscles are constantly working and we are being told by the World this is the most important issue to you and then when we come into a Christian section of our of our life which is often one day of a week for the nominal Christian that one moment of discipleship is being outweighed by this lifestyle of catechism that's shaping and forming us so that
when you get into a situation it's hard to tell what is truly a third bucket issue that we think is a main issue because it's the main issue for The world and not for the church I think that's that's helpful to remember uh Michael I'm pass for you man oh yeah well so David I know that you're and you've already begun to touch on it you're you're big on racial unity and people who've been involved a lot in the missions World tend to be because hey every tongue tribe and Nation that's the rally cry and
so uh and I think it's beautiful you got a hundred different nationalities or uh backgrounds and in Your church and so that's awesome so I I want to talk about that in the context of because when you're talking about American gospel and I think I know what you mean by that we live in a very sectarian times which you've alluded to and uh very supercharged and the moment that race is brought up uh the word woke is thrown around oh well well David's woke because he's you know he's doing this or he's doing that just
talk to us about the term talk to us about how you Respond if if you receive that kind of criticism and how do how should Christians respond where you on one hand see in Ephesians chapter 2 Jesus breaking down walls of hostility between Jew and Gentile like this seems like a a very Bible thing and then on the other hand woke has a lot of things packaged into it and and people seem to mean different things by it and it all just depends so I just I'm just going to put that out to you how
do you respond and How do you recommend that Christians kind of even process that term yeah that's a great question well I mean if I'm in a conversation with someone along these lines I mean the first thing I'm going to do is ask for like definition of terms like help me understand what you mean by that term I mean obviously uh we we know this like if if if I'm talking with somebody about football and I've got something in my Mind and the person I'm talking to lives in uh yeah this part of Europe who
has a totally different sport in mind when they think of football like that should affect our conversations so we should have a clear definition of terms there and so I I ask okay what do you mean by what because there's so much that's and it's supercharged politically and this or that uh because what I'm I'm going to say is well I'm going to go exactly where you just went like okay Ephesians 2 is extremely clear like we are a body of Christ where uh barriers have been broken down like ethnic barriers that have been hostile
in different ways in history Jews and Gentiles in Ephesians 2 like Jesus brings us together in a beautiful Unity where it's it's uh yeah we're we're brothers and sisters in Christ we're part of the same family we have the same Supernatural bloodline which means we love each other certain ways we listen to each other so we Walked through a whole process in our church family where we uh we call it the gospel of the church justice and race where we just looked open up our Bible we fasted prayed together and said okay let's oh what
does the bible teach us about the gospel that brings us to together about the church what it means to be the body of Christ together how we love each other care for each other listen to each other understand each other uh weep with each other bear each Other's burdens uh so we don't cancel each other we're the body of Christ uh so the church Justice what does the Bible say about Justice like hundreds of references of Justice how does the bible not our culture define justice and then and then race what does the bible teach
about these things and just dove into it it was so good but what was interesting so in that process uh we would ask uh different people just to give feedback along the way and at one point we asked Uh so here we have this multiethnic church family uh we asked at one point hey have you ever experienced challenges in our church as a result of your ethnicity uh and uh and it was really interesting like and this is this I'm not saying this is like with scientific uh perfect research but and just asking the hundreds
of people who walked through this journey 88% of our our white brothers and sisters who walked through this journey said I've never Experienced a challenge in our church family as a result of uh uh yeah the color of my skin 97% of the black members in our family uh from all kinds of different backgrounds uh said I've experienced challenges in our church family as a result of my ethnicity and at least 50% of our asian brothers and sisters and Latin uh Latino brothers and sisters and Native American brothers and sisters said the same thing so
it was that was Eye openening for me as a pastor but as a follower of Jesus to realize okay uh I I need to spend some time listening to learning from uh those who have some different perspectives than me and who've experienced challenges that I've not experienced for all kinds of reasons that we could go back through historically but not just historically that have affected the present and the body of Christ of all places that was what was so encouraging as we walked Through this journey together to hear so many people saying yes like we
want to be able to have these conversations together in the body of Christ with our Bibles open with our arms around wrapped around each other as Brothers and Sisters in Christ and and that's led to um yeah I just picture scenes where people around the table uh with a variety of different uh backgrounds hurts perspectives on different things uh sharing those things with the Bible Open and even with tears in their eyes sometimes passionately disagreeing with each other but walking away with their arms around each other as Brothers and Sisters in Christ like there's a
beauty here that I think Paul is describing in Ephesians 2 that I want to experience in the church last thing I would mention just real quick I mean there's so much I could talk about here but this is has been a blind spot in my own life uh so you mentioned like I mean yes I've been I think pretty passionate about Mission and mission of the Nations but uh the Lord has has used Brothers and Sisters in Christ in my church family to help me see some blind spots in my own life that I I've
needed to see and uh and it's been life-changing for me not in a way in any way that's like pulled me away from the gospel or the authority of God's word has actually driven me deeper into the gospel and the authority of God's word and the beauty of his church So anyway glad to dive in anym helpful but yeah you know I'd be curious I mean like you said it wasn't scientific so if you don't have a good answer fine I mean that's cool we don't have to press it but like what what do you
think were were some of the responses or did you get any data on that on like this is what caused me to feel this way in our local context I'd be very interested in that uh and then if you don't have a great answer for it that's too I got a Follow-up question which would be how do you see those kinds of uh engagements and disagreements taking place in the body of Christ like what's your vision uh of Believers getting to a table with completely different worldviews frankly trying to wrestle through the scriptures um so
I guess two questions there yeah uh so I I can illustrate it uh on your first question I think really well with one uh one of our pastors um who's actually now serving as a lead Pastor Alongside me uh um as a just a few months ago but Mike Kelsey the way he put it uh and he's been in our church for on staff for over 15 years um but he said he said I oftentimes have felt like a welcomed guest in our church family uh almost like a bed and breakfast um where I'm I'm
welcomed to be here to stay here but when it comes to what's on the menu um or the pictures that are on the wall uh that's that's already predetermined And uh and so I'm I'm welcome here as a guest and I I particularly feel that way when it comes to issues of Justice when certain things are emphasized which should be emphasized based on God's word but other things are not emphasized um that also should be emphasized based on God's word that are that are uh some of the first things that come to my mind or
uh the minds of people who uh look like me or have grown up in the way I have that the Bible also addresses that we Don't address in the same way or with the same Zeal as we address some other issues and so uh that was that that that's a picture and I I would say that's played out in in many different ways um and it's good it's good for uh amidst the uh cultural confusion and the way this gets politicized and polarized for people from all perspectives including people who have the same color skin
as I do to say hey well I struggle with this and then to do that again as The body of Christ like with each other like that's where we've really tried to say and this is what Romans 14 and 15 is so helpful for us in to say I mean I I love the way Paul he's talking about differences of conviction and he he doesn't say like don't have a strong conviction about what holidays you should celebrate or what food you should eat or shouldn't eat where they were differing he was like be convinced in
your own mind like Have strong conviction at the same time like look for opportunities to love your brother or sister in Christ to listen to to understand them to serve them to put them before yourself um it's just a beautiful picture in Romans 14-5 so to try to do that in our church family to say okay we have certain preferences when it comes to whether it's music style or um just approach to this or that how can we make sure that nobody in In this church family feels like a welcomed guest but they actually feel
like hey I'm a I'm a member of this church family and I'm a I'm a fully valued brother or sister and my perspective is represented uh not just in well just in the culture of the church and the fabric of the church and I think in the process the church uh becomes more beautiful um the only the only caveat I would add is I want to be really careful to Say that I'm not saying if you're not in a multiethnic setting that you're you you don't experience the beauty of the church uh I mean there's
some settings in the US or around the world that are just not multi-ethnic communities um and I'm not saying that you can't understand the word unless you have all kinds of different people from different perspectives coming into that like we have a sufficiency of God's spirit his Word the beauty of the church period at the same time and when I picture Revelation 79 and 10 and a multitude that no one can count from every Nation tribe language and people there's a beauty there that's coming fully one day and uh the more we can experience that
and cultivate multiethnic Community Around Jesus now I think the better because that's where we're going to be for like all of eternity yeah absolutely well so I'm Thinking about so we talked about Unity around the gospel within your own local church and how that plays out uh racially across political divides basically all the different ways in which we segment ourselves but I also know you you were president of the IMB for a while and I remember there was some article that came out I read this years ago you know David Platt this this was definitely
not the title of the article but it was like David Platt is On board with private prayer languages okay so uh which do you just totally just titled it whatever you wanted for the sake I did I completely completely did he's game for tongue tongue speaking so um you know we have a special interest in this because Josh and I blabber to God in our private prayer lives and um so but here here's what I wanted to ask you I know you're you're Southern Baptist you're Southern Baptist and uh And you you presided over a
mission board with people who maybe believed a little bit differently on that I seemed to remember at some point um learning that I guess in Nepal you were maybe really influenced by some folks who uh did what charismatics would call power evangelism you know healing exorcism those kinds of things and so I see this thread David where it's yes in your local church it's also over seas where you're very intense about this Theological triage let's keep first tier first tier we're talking Trinity we're talking Jesus died on a cross let's center around that and then
second tier and third tier and on down and let's not confuse the tiers talk to us a little bit about how we as Christians and how this is played out in your life practically can unite not just within our local church but across denominational lines yeah okay well there's a lot there Um I don't remember that particular uh headline maybe I'm wrong I don't know it just got created in this conversation but uh yeah so uh yeah it'll be helpful to kind of go back um to that point so I was leading the international Mission
board which uh would be the um Mission sending Organization for southern baptist churches and uh and Southern Baptists have a statement of faith like the Baptist faith and message uh that kind of unites together those southern Baptist churches and it doesn't specify it doesn't talk about private prayer languages in that statement of faith but in the IMB there was a a policy that said uh like this was something that um yeah would potentially disqualify you from serving with the IMB and so what I was saying is hey for southern Baptists there are some second bucket
issues to use that uh kind of picture and and and Southern Baptists have defined that they didn't put private prayer language in The second bucket uh so why are we putting it in the second bucket as the IMB and so let's make sure we're holding people who go out from the IMB according to the the belief statement that southern BST have identified which doesn't include that so so that's why we made it possible for those who might have private prayer languages to be able to go through the IMB uh because that was not spelled out
in the bth message so now to kind of fast forward um I mean I'm actually now at a non-denominational Bible Church have a lot of uh obviously I mean I grew up in southern baptist churches and um and served in the IMB and and love partnership together with all that southern Baptists are doing to spread the gospel make disciples multiply churches around the world but when I think about so uh spiritual gifts and the operation of those gifts I do think that at a second Bucket Level okay That's that's something that a local church is
going to need to identify uh like what do we believe about the gifts and how they they operate in the context of our local church and uh and where there is freedom or where uh we might say okay no not that or yes this um I think it's really good for pastors Elders to really dive into that together in a local church with that said that's not a first bucket issue uh and I I love partnership friendship together in the Gospel with brothers and sisters who have a variety of different uh yeah perspectives on those
gifts and practice of those gifts uh who are holding fast to God's word and Love The Gospel and living for the proclamation of the gospel and I would just say in my own life I have uh I've been and I've I've taught before uh in in many different settings uh just about how I'm not uh a cessationist in the sense that I think all of these particular spiritual gifts Have ceased at the same time like functionally I've not uh let out in ministries where those have been more prominent and at the same time I would
add I I want to be open to and pursue I mean I'm I'm my time with the Lord right now I was in first Corin 13 this morning 1 Corinthians 12 yesterday be in 1 Corinthians 14 tomorrow like I want to eagerly pursue the spiritual gifts that are given for the building up of the body and the spread of the Gospel around The world and I have brothers and sisters in Christ who I have learned a lot from who uh who have uh yeah practiced those gifts in ways that I have not and so uh
anyway that's that's the summary of how no that's great kind of bridge from the past where I find myself now that's good you know we're talking about you know uh context of in and the goal of mission right is really why and it sounds like even the reason why you were saying this is why We as a group need to have a second tier bucket because there's a church down the road and a church here that might disagree on spiritual gifts but what we do agree on is the mission and if we're distracted by this
secondary bucket issue it's going to prevent us from seeing Souls come into the kingdom and giving Jesus the reward of his suffering right like we want to we want to make Jesus famous in the earth that's the focus and we might need to do Church in Separate places so we don't kill each other right but like uh and I say that jokingly right like the Presbyterian down the road and me like well we're really good friends but we're GNA argue over baptism right that's just the way that works um but I would in in a
heartbeat go help them plant water wells and preach the gospel somewhere else right like easy peasy not hard we would do ministry in the same town together so in in that relation we' talked a lot About what looks like for you know pastoral leadership to navigate some of that you've given some of your own experience but how does the lay person the individual who you know I go to a nonam church or I go to the Lutheran Church down the road how do I um personally contribute to the spread of the Gospel through the unity
of the church how do I unify with someone outside of my local context uh in in a real meaningful way um while also in That that meaningful Unity spread the gospel uh how would you advise people to do that yeah I love that question and and I think the I hope the framework we've talked about with the different buckets is helpful for this because I would say like to any follower of Jesus well one like you you are a disciplemaker of the Nations like this is who you are as a follower of Jesus um yes
you are on Mission in your life where you work where you go to school on Your campus where you play like you're a disciplemaker for the Nations wherever you are in the world um in whatever POS positions you find yourself in and so to be in one be in a local church where you are uh yeah convictional aligned on second bucket issues and you're able to thrive out of the Overflow of your convictions and and you're able to you're growing in Jesus as a disciple you're locking arms with others and making disciples like so to
be committed To a local church I really I mean yeah I don't want to go over like go past that there's 114 times eaia has mentioned uh the word for church in the New Testament over 90 of those times it's specific local bodies of Believers and we we Define local church as like uh a group of believers who commit together to be and do all that God says a church is and does and so to be committed like that to a body where you're growing together in Christ and then yes to have eyes open to
The broader Body of Christ around you in the city where you live around you in the world and to be saying yes how can I C- labor these are my brothers and sisters in Christ too yes we're not in the same relationship like I am with those in our local church my local church but I love being Brothers and Sisters in Christ with you I love working together for the spread of the Gospel in the city for this for the spread of Jesus Fame I think is the way You put it yes and not just
here but among the Nations and that's where I think about uh like just a couple weeks ago I was with some employees uh out in Silicon Valley at a well-known Tech Corporation and uh just talking with them about how they are working together they're not all in the same local church but they are working together in the context of their workplace they're interceding for the people in their company they are intentionally sharing The gospel with the people in their company they're working together on Mission and it's was beautiful like to see this picture happening and
that that kind of transcends local churches that's and and it's not just they in the city where they live like they're connected with all kinds of people it's a Global Tech corporation uh where they're connecting with Brothers and Sisters in Christ in different countries and saying how can we work together in the context Of this the positions God's put us in in our vocation to share the gospel like to to cultivate that kind of Evangelistic Zeal and and discipl making happening just in the context of where we live that's across uh local church so I
I hope that a local church is like an ecosystem that's fueling that that at the same time we're part of a global body where we're doing that and yeah it goes to a whole level when you realize you're doing this with brothers and Sisters literally around the world so if I were to like repeat back just to make sure I could distill that kind of answer it sounds like one local church um they are giving you the language vocabulary operating software hopefully in which how to um discuss and categorize first tier second tier third tier
issues they're giving you that vocabulary and through your faithful membership to one local church in that kind of uh being in that ecosystem gives you an operating Software a language in which to discuss with other believers and just build genuine friendships I mean it sounds like that's the answer it's like be friends with people it doesn't sound too super complicated right and and if you're if you're a Christian you're you're going to share the gospel um that that ultimately sounds like the kind of response is yes learn that language and then be able to unify
over the things that matter with people outside of your Local four walls yes yes yes and I I would add a just deeper yes friendship like meaningful friendship and family like there is a sense in which we're family is the the broader Body of Christ and C- laborer like we should not see other brothers and sisters in Christ other churches like as competition or like no way like we're part of a big gay Kingdom like we're we're working together for the spread of jesus' name like we're not working against each Other we're for each other
even when we have differences that might separate us into different churches we're still like for each other we're we're brothers and sisters in Christ uh so yeah friendship and partnership together in the gospel like at Deep levels with the broader Body of Christ yeah okay so I W to I want to talk a little bit about so you have the book radical which I think was the first one that was where I first learned who you were people in my church Like oh have you read this book radical so I read the book radical and
then and you have don't hold back and really even both of these you know radicals you be radical for Jesus don't hold back leave behind that American gospel and grasp that biblical gospel and all of its implications so um so in this I just want to ask you like for the person who has three kids and two dogs and a backyard to maintain and a busy schedule and kids sports and and all the things And maybe they're a faithful believer in Jesus and modern life is just busy like how you know what would you say
to that person who says man I just I'm trying to do the best I can I'm tied into my church and I'm leading a Bible study and I pray for an unreached people group every third day when I can remember and I'm trying to do the best I can for the global mission of Christ but I I feel like I'm not radical enough like what would you say to that Person well I uh a there's so many thoughts coming to my mind well one I'm I've got six kids backyard uh yeah like so I I
get backyard's one you don't actually even need to maintain just maintain the front they the kids too and and I'm I'm yes our kids are doing sports stuff I'm coaching three sports teams right now like uh so I I I get it on one hand uh and but that's kind of the the beauty I mean Part of what uh my hope is and even using the word radical is to say like if we're actually following Jesus we are going to go against the grain of this world and uh and our marriages are going to look
different just day in and day out even the mundane like our marriages need to be a reflection in Ephesians 5 22-33 kind of way of of sacrificial love for each other um that depicts the gospel and so and yes so that plays out in uh all kinds of ways in a home that Maybe don't seem like radical and world changing but our our our counterculture I mean uh even just understanding and living out what the Bible says about men and women in marriage that's super countercultural and so to do that day in and day out
and then so to take uh coaching kids sports teams like okay so why am I doing this I want to do this yes I want to love my kids I want to love these other kids I want to love their families I want to point them to Jesus like it's one of the things I try to do like just to infuse that like uh so at the end of each season like I just write each of these kids a letter whether it's a a kind of Christian type League or a totally like secular League to
try to write a letter give it to their parents and say hey this is for this this child I just and I'm sharing the gospel in that so I'm wanting to infuse like okay following Jesus I don't I'm not coaching like uh the guy who Doesn't have the spirit of Jesus in his heart like he's he's great maybe great and doing but I've got different things I'm focused on in that and then uh and in my home my daily life uh and so and that's where I I would never encourage somebody to think okay are
you radical enough like I mean who's radical enough I actually wrote a follow-up book to that the first book radical called radical together and the and part of that what I was trying to do there was Saying listen it's not about it's about being faithful it's about being faithful to Jesus in the time and place he's put us in and faithful to Shepherd our families well faithful to uh to make disciples of the nations from the place where we live and wide open wherever God might lead us to do that um and if we're if
we're actually doing that not and and I would say like not settling for a nice comfortable Christian spin on the American dream that's not what God has Made us for God has made us for more than that God has made us to live for that which is going to matter forever to use our money for that which is going to matter forever to yeah to enjoy him and all of his glory every day and walking with him and to live to exalt his name among the Nations and that's going to affect the day-to-day life but
there's not a a a constant sense I don't God has not designed any one of us to live like okay you're never doing enough like he's He's pleased with us as we walk with him in faithfulness to him realizing that's going to go against the grain of the culture around us in so many different ways that's that's good I think there's that that line of like there's this call to obey and then there's this call to like radically rest in the finished work right so it's like I'm not doing doing this to earn or be
but like a as a response of what he's done for me I get to worship rightly like the worship is Is missions right that's the the piper thing isn't it I'd be curious kind of into that vein of like okay we're not GNA we're not going to create a message of being radical that is so overemphasized that it's a heavy yoke and a burden that's not representative of the gospel and Jesus's lightness that he is co-laboring with us in but at the same token there is this go this there's this obedience aspect that we don't
want to neglect either when it comes to World Missions when it comes to evangelism when it comes for the heart for the Lost what would you say um is the pulse of the West and the American church when it comes to uh the Lost do you think that the average church is rightly emphasizing this and what would you want the heart of the average believer to be so one is a pulse question where are we at and then the other is where do we need to be in relation to individuals in local churches as it
relates to Global Evangelism ah so good you know on the first thing you were saying I think the way I I put it in uh that radical together book was that the gospel that frees us from work frees us to work so it frees us from work that's fueled by the Flesh in order to try to please God in order to earn the favor of God yes we are freed from that totally rest in the righteousness of Jesus that's Blood Bought in for us and as we rest in him we are now free in his
Spirit to work in Ways that ReSound to his glory through our lives and like good glorious work that's fueled not by the flesh but by faith in Jesus uh on a daily basis we live by faith so and that leads us on on Mission like to be disciplemakers of the Nations uh I I I think when I think about the pulse the kind of state of where we are uh we live in a world where there are approximately 3.2 billion people who have little to no knowledge of the Gospel who are unreached by the Gospel
it's not that they've heard the gospel and rejected it it's that they the likelihood is these three billion people if nothing changes will be born live and die and never even encounter a Christian or a church who will share the gospel with them uh like that's that's a major problem like three billion people who are separated from God and their sin and nobody's even around them to tell them that God loves them enough to send Jesus to die on the cross for their sin So that that I think most Christians either uh don't know that
reality or if they do know that think that those people are going to be okay in eternity uh that's the only explanation I can come up with for why we're not talking about this all the time in the church like surely we don't know and realize that three billion people are headed to a christless eternity and they've never even heard how they can have eternal life in heaven Surely we don't know that and we're just ignoring that or that's not very important to us like that would so that that's the pulse I see uh and
I think that needs to change I think number one we need to know that we need to realize that we live in a time like there are more unreached people today more people who've never heard the gospel today than ever before in history like the world population is continually increasing including the Population among those who've never heard the gospel and we're not doing anywhere close in the church to keeping up with that this is happening on our watch more people going into a crisis eternity without ever even hearing the good news of eternal life in
Jesus like sure surely we're not content with that and so so then that leads to the question well what do we do and I think the problem with the answer we've given is we've said well we need a few Missionaries to go over there and do that and uh and so we we like have in our minds okay maybe hundreds maybe thousands of missionaries we need to go do that and most followers of Jesus uh kind of excuse themselves from really doing anything about those three billion people and I think that is a tactic of
the adversary like what we need is not a few hundred or a few thousand more missionaries to go to that we need hundreds of thousands and millions of Christians who are disciplemakers of the Nations uh I I don't think this is a missions problem I think this is a discipleship problem I think we most followers of Jesus have excused oursel from even thinking about that and living for that instead of saying okay how can I press into that like I've been given this command to make disciples of the Nations so what does this look like
in my life what does it look like for me yes yes to pray for the spread of the Gospel among the Nations what does it look like for me to give like we we spend most of our resources on ourselves we we we give some resources to the church we s give some of those resources that we give to church or Ministries to missions but we've done the the data done the research the data shows even out of that which we give to missions in the church about 98 to 99% of that actually goes to
places that are already reached with the gospel in Latin America Or subsaharan Africa or Europe or parts of Asia that already have the gospel so we actually give to missions and we're ignoring the three billion people who've never heard the gospel so we've got to change that imbalance like we've got to change the way we're using our resources we've been given unprecedented wealth in the history of the world how can we use this wealth for the spread of the Gospel among people who've never heard it and then and then okay how can we go just
in Our daily lives like I think about my life now I know I live in a uh Metropolitan city city like Metro DC but like this week uh the last two weeks I had the opportunity to share the gospel with a couple people from Pakistan a couple people from Afghanistan one from Turkey one from Sudan that's just in the last couple of weeks like God's brought the Nations to us like so and and and not that it's just when we're sharing the gospel with people from different Ethnicities but let's make disciples right where we live
among the Nations right around us and then look for opportunities like so there's more unreached people in the world than ever before in history and there's more opportunity to reach them than ever before in history like Paul could never have imagined a machine that can pick you up in the air and plant you anywhere in the world and like a day like plane travel is amazing and and how long did It take him to write a letter and send it somewhere like you and I can communicate with people around the world in real time in
multiple languages through a device in our pocket this is amazing we have more opportunities to reach the world with the gospel than ever before in history so how are we going to step into that with each of our lives like all of us plan AP part God's not saved anybody to sideline any single person in this so uh yeah man I can keep Going on you mentioned the billion can you give us locations like what what locations like if a church is like I wanna that's a good point David I wanna I want to fix
that problem where are the places that aren is it southeast Asia is that the is that the chunk of the the planet picture picture a map I wish I could I had one that I could show to you right now but uh if you go to Joshua project.net or 1040 window stuff yeah so 1040 window picture North uh this 10 uh 10 degrees and 40 degrees uh like picture North Africa um increasingly parts of Europe um into the Middle East uh South Asia so India um certainly into southeast Asia Indonesia um Central Asia Afghanistan Pakistan
Iran uh Western Asia as you get into EUR uh Russia the caucuses um so just picture that whole stretch of places uh that's where the most concentrated uh population of people who've never heard the gospel live That's great thank you okay so and a huge chunk of those people live in persecuted land that's a big reason why a lot of them are less reached because you go there you might die and so or you might get arrested or you might get your property confiscated or whatever uh a lot of those not all but a lot
of those regions are harder to reach and so uh we've got to talk about secret Church uh David could you tell us what secret church is and and what it does in in Terms of like its relation to the persecuted Church throughout the world yeah so good well I just I'm going to connect a couple dots there uh like those areas that are unreached uh there are brothers and sisters in those places like indigenous brothers and sisters who at the risk of their lives have come to know Christ and are working for the spread of
the Gospel part of what radical does is we we find those brothers and sisters indigenous brothers And sisters in those places and we say how can we get behind you and so I would just uh add for anybody who wants to say okay how can we focus there we are one of the things we're trying to do is connect the yeah places where the gospel has gone people who have it with those areas and brothers and sisters doing good gospel church planting discipl making in those uh places that are unreached um and in the process
yes this is where the persecuted Church lives um And so we started years ago something we call secret church it's it's based on time I had uh initially years ago in eastasia with underground house churches where they' meet for eight to 12 hours at a time and kind of sneak me into these underground locations and we'd gather together and they're gathering at the risk of their lives like if if we were caught I'd be just k k out of the country they would go to prison or or Worse um but they love the word so
much That it's worth risking their lives to gather around it and so we would gather around and just walk through intense of time in the word uh and so came back and said why don't why don't we do that here uh so we started uh secret Church um and we do it once a year now where we just gather together Brothers and Sisters in Christ uh via Sim cast from all kinds of different places and we do intensive studying the word um so we do it's about six hours uh just diving into the word And
praying for our persecuted church for our persecuted brother and sisters who have to gather like this and we like this year um it's I think it's April 19th we'll we'll dive into the word we're walk through the Book of Ruth just intensive hours in the Book of Ruth that night I can't wait and then uh we're GNA learn about the persecuted Church specifically in North Korea and and then we'll gather get on our faces pray for our persecuted brothers and sisters like Remember your brothers in prison as if you were there with them so we
want to we want to identify with them in that way pray for them and then we have an opportunity yeah let's give let's give to be a part of the spread of the Gospel in those places so yeah that's that's what secret church is hey I'm gonna do a little side note here so this super thin book on the Book of Ruth by Ronald M hows so uh Jack deer Theologian who discipled me gave me this book and it is Beautiful and amazing and enlightening and you could read it in a very short period of
time so take it or leave it and for our viewers out there y'all can take it or leave it but uh very fascinating book and helpful for understanding The Book of Ruth it's one of my favorite books the Bible anyway okay so this is that part of the show where uh as we're kind of reaching that one hour mark where we like to kind of uh summarize put in a nutshell form the One big takeaway the Golden Nugget and so uh I'm gonna give it first to Josh and ask Josh to summarize what his big
takeaway would be and then David I'll uh volley it over to you after that and let you share what is the big takeaway that you want people to walk home with uh as a result of this episode so Josh you first what is it what's your Golden Nugget yeah I I think uh yeah I'm I'm I'm very passionate about uh evangelism it's not something I'm particularly Gifted in I did it for three years traveled with an evangelist did Ministry on homeless uh like BR there's these bridges in Dallas called it tent city where a bunch
of homeless people would live under we did evangelism down there all the time we you know get a bunch of soda cans fill a kitty pool put it in the back of a truck and then just cover it in ice so that they could have a cold soda and bunch of dollar burgers and we go pass out food under the bridge we Would uh do evangelism in the homosexual District of Dallas we would uh knock on every single door in Cedar Hill we led a team of people who did that so I love evangelism and
it's not something I'm particularly graced in in that threeyear period of time it was a lot of seed sewing I'm not particularly good at like reaping said Harvest but but I'm very I'm very passionate about seeing the work getting done and I think that that this conversations like these are really Important because as the West becomes more polarized politically uh we are very eager to divide over tertiary issues and I think realizing that there as we're debating over uh I can't partner with you and spread the Gospel of Jesus who is God and fully incarnate
God man died on a cross rose from the dead for your and my sins while we're while we're debating you know whether uh you can vote for this political candidate um we are not able to unite Forces and and proverbially send 10,000 to flight right like we're we're unable to unify together and that actually prevents Global spreading of the Gospel not to say that we unify over uh are able to unify over disagreements on first tier issues I I have no desire to to unify with um what would be a hyper charismatic you know present
day Gnostic who believes that he's a God and we're all becoming guts that that is unacceptable un Unity uh but under Issues that uh we can put in the second tier or third tier buckets if we could have a and this is why theology matters and why theology informs myology where our Doctrine is so important I think that Christians are today in the west and David said this we have a discipleship problem I think that we are so theologically malnourished we can't distinguish between first tier and second tier issues or first tier and Third tier
issues and we're coming together and we won't unify over what is essential to save the world um and I think that that is really the heart that Jesus has for his disciples that they would know uh that you're my disciples for the love that you have for one another there there needs to be a strong biblical Christian Unity under biblical grounds uh but but to acknowledge that these tertiary issues though we disagree um are not and should not prevent us From the globalization and spread of that gospel uh to the nation so uh I think
that's my major takeaway i' encourage people to go pick up that book uh uh don't hold back by David we've got a copy of that or the link of that uh in the email list so if you've subscribed to newsletter again Link in description for that you can check out that book as well uh David I'll toss it over to you same kind of question what some closing thoughts if I didn't commit the sin of Thunder theft and steal your thunder I think I just sised most of your book there so uh anyway uh what
are your what are your thoughts on that no that was good man I uh I yeah I I think the way I would summarize because we've talked about radical I book I wrote years ago and then don't hold back um I I I think years after writing radical having moved to Metro DC and experienced up and close up close and personal some of the what I would call unhealth of the church in our Country uh I think what I wrote in radical didn't go far enough like it's not just an American Dream that's consumed Our
Lives I think there's if we're not careful there's an American gospel like that's hijacked our hearts that we've so conflated the gospel with uh certain ideals or values or power in politics that if we're not careful we'll lose the way of Jesus altogether and I think that we've seen the effects of that in discouragement when you look at The church disillusionment division the Next Generation saying I'm just even more and more disconnected from the church and a lot of people looking around like I thought there was more to the church than this and that's part
of why I wrote this book like there is there's so much more to Jesus and the church than what we've seen and experienced and we can experience it we can experience him like the a filled Wonder of Jesus the other Worldly beauty of the church but some things need to change like we we need to uh and that's why I titled it don't hold back because there's a lot of tendency or temptation to hold back instead of pressing in and saying okay how can we not fight with each other but for each other as Brothers
and Sisters in Christ and how can we turn the tide on centuries of racial division of the church so we are reflecting the beauty of who Jesus is how can we yes hold fast To God's word with conviction and yet love the world around us and each other with compassion and how can we like not just debate justice but like do it in a world full of Injustice and and every one of us play our part in seeing the gospel spread to the Nations so uh I hope I guess at the core of all that
my hope my prayer for anybody who's watching this listening to this is that uh I guess yeah that you would experience deeper intimacy with Jesus in The middle of all this than you've ever experienced before because I think all the things we've talked about are the Overflow of deep intimacy with him in his heart and his word uh his grace his truth his love for us just abiding in him amen that's wonderful well guys thank you so much for joining us for this show uh we film every Monday and Wednesday 4: to 5: p.m and
uh David it's such a pleasure to have you on with us this time for your First time on rant radio hopefully it's not your last time and we'd love to have you back so uh guys make sure hit that subscribe button the like button that sure helps us a lot uh get this message out there and uh definitely click the link in the description for the newsletter uh hey we just found out today we filled up all our slots for the ecourse so unfortunately you'll have to wait until the fall to hop on that train
but uh definitely uh sign up for the Newsletter and you can find out all the happenings of RN radio guys thanks again for joining us God bless you and have a great week
