foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign foreign thank you so much for being here with us today you probably know that you are one of the most famous copywriters here in Brazil even though you're not Brazilian so that's kind of funny and for the very few people that don't know you could you please briefly uh talk a little bit about who is Stefan Georgia what have you done and what you're doing right now for sure I appreciate you having me on it's an honor and as I told you before we started recording uh I really am honored
to have such an audience in Brazil people who admire me so for those who do know who I am thank you for being a fan for those who don't know who I am I'm a direct response copywriter by trade uh I have sold over a billion dollars U.S worth of stuff with my words I've written for I don't know does or hundreds of different direct response businesses uh I've created my own offers and brands that have scaled significantly I've started numerous different companies and a variety of niches and categories and um I'm the creator of
the rmbc method which is a copywriting methodology that helps people to write sales copy in the step-by-step process and I know okay yeah yeah that's nice so uh so you you spent like a lot of time writing creating offers for yourself or other people and that's a lot of experience that you have in this domain and one thing that I went through to I want to tell you is that in Brazil the market is very very unsophisticated so people here they have no idea what they're doing whatsoever and when I say they have no idea
I really mean that because they don't know how to write sales letters they just copy each other out you say that you made over one billion dollars in in sales in using your copy if you count all the Brazilian rip-offs that are using your copy you can probably double that amount because people here in Brazil they just don't know how to do stuff even though we have this like uneducated people even with this people are still making a lot of money you know why because the market here just accepts everything that you put out they
the market like you can just put put out the benefit copy and it will still convert a lot so my question is imagine if you can you know be a Brazilian and bring out your knowledge of this this experience that you have here and then you're going to create a direct marketing company using your your entrepreneur's brain what would you do to maximize the money yeah having this big opportunity here it's a good question I think you know knowing that from what I understand in the Brazilian Market doing physical products is more difficult than informational
products like the shipping is a bit less reliable across the country maybe that's how I understand it so I probably look to do something informational um you know there's a lot of ways you could go to be honest if I were just going to come into the Brazilian Market and I wasn't going to do something physical then the most low-hanging fruit for me given my knowledge and experience would be something like kind of bizapi as in teaching other people which is there's a lot of that I mean I've met some people who are having lots
of success in Brazil who are Brazilian who I think there's a lot of business opportunities people teaching other people how to make money and things like that but um because internet marketing and digital marketing is really exploding in Brazil I think there's a large market for that a lot of interest and there's probably and have a pretty credible voice where to come in and so I probably do something around there you know for the average person who doesn't have the experience that I have if they're if I were that person and I was going to
start something uh you know I mean I just go so I'd have to understand the market better than I do but look at some sort of it would still be informational I you know like a guide like uh yeah yeah ebooks and stuff like that but yeah one thing that Brazilians are doing right now is that they just go to the American Sales letters and they they see the mechanism that they are using and they just rip off the mechanism here and try to write another lead for it and they just take out all the
American proof elements like when they say hey Harvard say that this is fine they just change it to some Brazilian University or something very black heady stuff and that's what they are actually doing right now and it's working so even though I mean some people are selling informational products but there are also some people selling um like supplements and making a lot of money too and that's their mate their main uh way of operating they just grab mechanisms from the US and apply it here and they keep doing that so the biz opting is actually
a very nice way to to make money and yes there are a lot of people making serious money here in Brazil do you think that there are some vis-up guys that we should Inspire ourselves in the US to get ideas so to run here in Brazil well yeah it's a funny thing because on the one hand it's like I don't want to say people who are then going to get ripped off but at the same time those people aren't selling in Brazil anyway so you know as far as bizop goes I think chance and Abdul
who have modern millionaires are good people to look at they're doing healthy midnight figures with their business you know I arguably what Cole Gordon is doing is not Biz up but it sort of is as far as like he's got two sides for closers.io right one side is placing sales teams and helping business owners to have phone sales teams the other is running ads to people saying hey you can make money by being a phone closer right and doing phone sales and he's done very well he's at 30 million plus per year us um and
uh so those are two people to probably look at and yeah there's always two I would look at I think I have a question though for you and that's I wonder about like Harvard right because from my perspective I mean this is my my U.S Centric viewpoint it's like Harvard is so famous because I run into this I'm actually with another client spell which is uh Meredith shurik and they're doing several hundred million dollars a year U.S revenue and we uh through my the agency I have now we're writing a bunch of copy for them
and we're also helping them with taking a bunch of their really established offers and taking them to different markets and that's come up a couple times because they feel like oh if it's for the South African market for example find a university in South Africa but I feel like well you know Harvard's so well known that from my perspective it still feels more credible to say Harvard than it does to say the University of Sao Paulo or something like that but I'm curious if that's the fair assumption or if you think it like is there
any data is what I'm really asking that says you know instead of using Yale or Harvard or Princeton you're using you know something like a Brazilian University is there any data that shows that that's actually better I'm just curious if you know because I I yeah I think no I I actually I don't know yeah the thing is Brazilians one thing that we have here in Brazil is that Brazilians own Brazil because truth is it most Brazilians they don't speak English so it's very hard for them to consume English content it's hard for for us
companies to get inside Brazil because of government regulations so if you are a Brazilian you have everything to run to create a good business here in Brazil and people from other countries they can't get in and that that same goes for proof elements so if you say Harvard this I don't know old Brazilian lady she she has no idea what Harvard is so it's not a proof element for her but it really depends on the niche that you're targeting but most like urgent problem niches like weight loss skin and diabetes arthritis this kind of dishes
they have no idea what Harvard is so that's why it's better to use a Brazilian approved element but that's only for Brazil I run offers in Latin America and Harvard works better and yeah I I never tried in Europe and I also run offers in Nigeria in Africa one time but that's it so in Brasilia I think I know it works best in Latin America I don't have that much data but I I know that Harvard works because I have I have like friends that are just ripping off uh American Sales letter sales letters and
running here in the Latin American and it is working but if you do the same thing in Brazil it will not work so you actually need to use the Brazilian proof element and that that's not only for Harvard but most of the time for their whole proof for all the proof elements that you're using in your sales letters even the mechanism because in the US for example if you were if you're creating a weight loss offer you're going to to probably talk about keto because it's very famous or I don't there's even an offer called
keto boost or something that you guys were it was huge in the US a few years ago I don't know if it's still raining today but in Brazil people have no idea what kilo is they really have no idea so you can't use that and the market is really very different so yeah it's an answer your question there is a difference yes okay good to know yeah I was just curious yeah okay so all right and as I said people in Brazil they just copy each other out they have no idea what they're doing but
it's still working there are some I don't know 18 years old that are millionaires they're just selling like PDFs online and it's working like crazy do you think that if we create a good sales letter for the Brazilian Market in the Stefan Georgia style like a very good mechanism a very good lead do you think that's a actually a very big opportunity to do that or you think that because the market is not that sophisticated it's better to just go with a normal approach and just like a more a benefit oriented copy or something like
that it's hard to answer that definitively without knowing the market really intimately which I don't I would imagine that a more full-on sales letter would do quite well you know I think the short answer is always going to be to test it but I would imagine because even in the US you constantly have people going oh long sales letters don't work anymore and people have short attention spans and you know there's constantly trying to get away from longer format sales copy and yet it just keeps working better than everything else across the board there's always
exceptions so I might have a short thing that does well but generally long form stuff just Still Remains The King and so for the Brazilian Market I would imagine this it's similar I you know there's there's data points you'd have to look at for example what percentage of people in the Market within Brazil that you're targeting are going to consume on a cell phone versus a computer I would guess cell phones are really high I would guess it's a lot of mobile but yeah yeah so you know for that reason maybe the vsl would you
know need to be shorter or you need to make sure that it's very much optimized for mobile or maybe a text a text sales letter would be better because like historically for me Tech sales owners have actually any other video hosting platform so I'm not trying to say but historically tax sales letters will often convert better on mobile because um you know people want to skim through and stuff like that but that's changed too it depends on the format right horizontal versus vertical view a lot of other important elements so yeah and I and I
think that just the last note you know to me because you guys are behind but even in the US like for example in 20 15 or 16 I wrote like a sales letter for turmeric right which is like obviously a healthy spice and at the time there was like one other trick offer from Cody Bramlett who I later partnered with for a period of time uh but I basically looked at it and it was a very basic sales letter and I was like oh if I bring my Dr abilities right my direct response copywriting Powers
here I bet we can crush it and then we did I mean we that thing was doing like 500 a thousand products a day making 100 000 a day all that kind of stuff and then same thing with CBD right the first I'm pretty sure I was the first person to do like a vsl sales letter for CBD and that was maybe 2016 or 17 and same thing I mean we were doing sometimes 500 000 a day in sales and there's a bunch of other people doing you know short form landing pages and things like
that uh but often what I found at least in the US is yeah it's a huge opportunity when you find something that that's selling well but nobody's taken a long form contract response approach to it uh that you know means you're gonna be the first thing you're gonna make a lot of money and I would imagine while there may be certain nuances that it's the same thing in Brazil too yeah and how how do you find these things that are actually selling well do you have like some some place that you go looking for it
or maybe for an experience you know yeah generally historically it's been just being tapped into the market seeing ads that are Running Scene reviews I think knowing your markets a lot of direct response long form sales copy lends itself to informational products for sure but then on the physical side which I have done even more of um you know supplements or devices that solve a problem quickly where the price point is between 27 on the very low end up to about ninety seven dollars is a really good sweet spot for physical products so you'll see
trends like for another example in the same line of examples as turmeric and CBD was like for a period of time in the US there are these anti-snoring devices that were really it became a big category and so you had people putting these sort of mouth like uh retainer things in your mouth that were supposed to stop you from snoring and then there was also something called a tongue retaining device that holds your tongue out so you can't snore and a partner at the time actually the same one that I did the the turmeric and
CBD stuff with we were like wow you know all these Ecom companies are are crushing it we're seeing ads everywhere so let's do a sales letter for a anti-story device and it was the same thing I did extremely well so I think a lot of times you'll see if I see something that's doing really well in a market that I know the market then that's really the biggest thing and where you see that is again it's not like in-depth analytical research but it's more like pay attention to ads pay attention to what you're seeing you
know you're getting served like on websites things like that yeah that that's really interesting and that's a very good way to actually create the offer so just see what is selling then create a good vsl around it so to to scale even more so one question about that what do you think about introducing new mechanisms here in Brazil like instead of seeing what is already working and trying to create a campaign around it what if we just I don't know see what kind of mechanisms are working in U.S or use work in the past and
then bring this here to Brazil and present it to to Brazilians because they 30s they they never had contact with this mechanism so if you just write in a sales letter to this mechanism if the mechanism is good then chances that people will believe it and they want to buy the product right yeah for sure I mean that's what I would do I don't think if I were going to write an offer for a client in the Brazilian Market I would not be trying to come up with the world's most novel and new and complex
mechanism I would look at something that that works and we do this a lot so we work with guys uh Matia paganelli and his partners and they sell in Italy and in Portugal and in the UK Italy's their biggest market and we love we've helped them go from I don't know a couple million a year to like eight figures a year uh and we love rain for them because that we we write great letters but we be myself I see partners and through our agency now it was originally myself and my one Protege Luke Mills
but now he's a partner and so but we love writing because we for that exact reason we're like you know we'll find a mechanism that's good but we're like well it's not you know in the US it might not work but in Italy it's not Apples to Apples it might be a little bit right different but but the same concept of like a step behind the US so it works and I think the same thing from Brazil I would just take mechanisms that are proven in that work and transport them over I think there's nothing
wrong with that I mean that being said right for example we brought up keto earlier and I would imagine keto could brush in Brazil but I wouldn't call it keto I would just explain the mechanism behind keto I would explain you know the shocking truth that eating more fat eat more fats to burn fat right or eat more fats to get skinny or whatever it is um and I'll just simplify it down so I would it could still be keto and we know keto works right so that's great you're helping the customers that they follow
the guide but you don't have to call it keto so that's another big part of it yeah okay I I got it and since we're talking about creating offers when you're going to create a brand new vsl what do you think is the 80 20 in your process what people should really focus on I think the mechanism is extremely important uh you know you need a novel way I think a novel being novel to the market so what like what's novel in the US is a novel in Brazil right so doing that context of mine
but a novel way of explaining the real cause of their problem and they need to do something that's believable realistic that intuitively makes sense perhaps there's a level of testable proof so my testable proof I mean uh you know something like uh like bite the inside of your cheek and do you feel like a tangible that's because uh that's like your your tissue is like dying and you know I don't know physical like like you know uh like push your finger down and if you know depending on how long it takes for your skin to
return color that shows how old you are whatever that some kind of interesting testable element um but again it has to be believable and then and it has to be like almost viral I think that's the thing I really realized with mechanisms is I really want my mechanism to be an idea that somebody can take and remember very quickly and that they want to then go share with five other people because they they'll sound smart and they'll feel like they feel like accomplished like oh I learned something I know something and so you know increase
their their status you want to give them an argument that they can use to defend themselves when someone asks hey why did you buy this [ __ ] and then they can say hey I bought this because this does this and that and then you they actually learn something and they are perceived has more smart to their friends exactly it's a really often overlooked element that's really important so so the mechanism the lead is always going to be extremely important yeah and then just research on like understanding the market too right if you don't understand
the market and their pain points then nothing else really matters if you like you'll get the lead wrong the mechanism doesn't matter if like you're not speaking to the market and meeting them where they're at uh that's really interesting because the the way that I see the mechanism is that it is like a move point that your sales letter has so the goal of the mechanism is to make someone believe in the method that your product uh uses so for example if if in your mechanism if your product is a collagen supplement then you really
need to make people believe that if they get more collagen on their skin they will become young again so a good way that I see to actually create offers is to just find a very believable mechanisms because this is the the goal of the mechanism to make someone believe in them to them sell their product later and I never thought of this virality thing I always thought about the proof thing in how to make them to make this more believable and actually that's what most Brazilian gurus here they teach they say hey when you're going
to create an offer find the most uh the the mechanism that has the biggest proof so then you can use all this proof in your sales layer because then people will believe in your method and they and then if the icker offer is good they will buy it and can you explain more about this the reality thing and do you think that this is more important than the proof side of of the the mechanism or you think that the proof side is more important than the viralities side I'm gonna think about which one I think
is more important my gut reaction is they're like 50 50. uh is in their director neck and neck uh because I think for something something to be viral or have virality it needs to be easily transmissible meaning easily transmitted from one person to another easily spread in order for that to happen it needs to be easily understood it also has to be interesting and exciting someone's going gotta feel like they want to spread it uh there's usually to your point a deeper benefit to transmitting than just transmission nobody's transmitting because of that right so if
somebody shares a funny viral meme their Partners in there sharing it it's that other people will go ha that's funny and they'll look at your status goes up as somebody who has a good sense of humor or who recognizes funny things uh but similarly if you can share useful information about the real cause of wrinkles or crow's feet or doll saggy skin or why you put on weight and can't lose it after pregnancy or whatever the thing is and you can show a really good interesting compelling reason like yeah you increase status and more people
and it doesn't have to be online it could be within your community your friends your family I mean to your point justifying to a spouse right like a woman goes and buys some weight loss pill and the husband goes um you know that does that really work maybe it's BS it's just like no because like here you know she explains why right now she can back up that decision and he can't say as much about it so she wants she wants that right the guy who buys something wants that to explain to his buddies does
not look dumb um so yeah I think that's extremely important I think that proof is also very important but there's a fine line there in that ultimately people will still buy for emotional and not logical reasons right they they kind of make the decision to buy with their heart first and then their brain you know their heart has to communicate of the brain and give the brain give the brain the facts that back it up so the brain signs off on it right and so the reason that matters is because you know motion is sort
of King but then a lot of proof elements are more logical in a way and it's like yeah okay like Harvard or whatever the equivalent is in Brazil or lots of people using it so that's important but the trick is to not go so overboard when you're just listening off so many proof elements that a person is bored because we're like I don't care anymore all right you've convinced me but now like back to me in my life and my struggles and my story and my hopes and my dreams so I really think they're neck
and neck but I think I I really do look for any mechanism that I write to have that component of virality to where I can easily and like look if I'm working on a mechanism myself for an offer or for a client whether or my own or whatever I really need that mechanism to a place where I can explain it on demand and 30 seconds or less ideally two to three sentences maybe up to five sentences and that I know we can but I want to because I think it's interesting so even with my wife
Laura like I've done this many times before we'll be like oh I found this interesting mechanism and I'll explain what it is and then if she goes oh right then I know like I'm on the right track you know so yeah yeah nice well one thing that I noticed is that if you have a mechanism that has built-in virality it's actually easier to write the lead right because you you have all these elements that you can use in the late is that how you think yeah yeah I definitely do I mean I was literally working
with a long-term very large client last night they sent over a list of ingredients for a supplement formulation and ask for my opinion and if I had any additions or whatever so I did some research on it and I can't I can't give away on the podcast but basically one of the ingredients I saw I just saw a really interesting hooks so even in my right up to them I'm like oh we could do this in the lead we could do this in the league uh but it's because I was looking into the ingredients and
how they work and stuff and it immediately uh gave me some really interesting ideas for sure yeah I mean definitely that's a huge part of it I definitely like to have I don't I actually write the leads last pretty much every time but and I've gone back and forth on that throughout my career uh there's periods where I've been like oh I like to rightly first because I'm just so inspired and looked out in but lately I generally right now I have something that I'm going to ship to apply it for our agency tomorrow that
it's too long right now it's like 12 000 words so I need to cut it down anyway but that's without the leads but that's the only part I haven't done is the leads but I've got like three or four ideas uh I think it's just way easier to write the leads once you've read the rest of the sales letter because you have so much else to reference and things appear even when you plan your sales letter things sort of ideas show up or you end up talking about something more than you thought you would because
you realize how interesting it is and so for that reason I do the leads last but um yeah when long would it answer but uh yeah yeah I actually me too I sometimes I also do the leads in the first place the first thing but it's actually very hard because the lead only talks about what seeing the sales letter right so if you don't have the cells of your how we will talk about it and that's a little bit hard for me but I understand your point and well when you and do you have any
tips on how to write leads you say that you found some good angles when you were researching for this client and you you have the the rnbc method where you actually teach the delete and from studying it I my conclusion my personal opinion is that the lead is made out of three main elements the first one is the promise then you have roofs and then you have curiosity so that's it you basically do a main promise and then you have after you spend the whole lead trying to prove your promise and then giving up some
small reason wise people should consume the content and that's the Curiosity part so for example when you say when you tease the mechanism of the of the the solution of the problem or whatever it is both proof and curiosity because you're proving that your promise is real because there is a backstory and there is a reason why this promise is real but there's also curiosity because people think okay this is new so what is it and then people want to read it so that's how I think about about the leads just one very big believable
promise in lots of profile lots of curiosity sometimes this promise actually it's a promise of value sometimes it's a promise that I say hey watch this video and I'm going to give this benefit to you or sometimes it's just a story so the value is in the end in the entertainment like crazy dad lead or something and when you're thinking about leads when you're writing leads how do you actually come up with a very killer lead the stuff that I say to you doesn't make any sense or how do you see that what's your opinion
yeah it makes sense uh I think you're overall right on the three elements um You could argue I mean yeah you've seen RBC in my my kind of outline for lead there's other pieces but you could argue a lot of those other pieces fall within those three categories maybe emotion could be separate depending on the lead and I think having the motion in there for a lot of niches is important um but when I'm writing leads I'll tell you what I'm doing literally today that works best from my perspective which is generally and this is
whether it's me or again through my agency or working with you know multiple eight and nine figure US dollar clients like really the biggest and the big uh in early right like three to four maybe even five like openings of the lead like basically the first 150 to 300 words it's like five different angles cloaks Big Ideas whatever it is and then the second half of the lead or the second two thirds of the lead is essentially the same and so what we find generally works the best in the US today is is curiosity right
but really good curiosity the emotional punch in the gut Pig stuff is definitely something that works but it just tends to these days actually not work as well as as curiosity but it has to be relevant and you know interesting curiosity um so for example I'm partnered in like a dog supplement offer with um with a guy and we had another writer do a couple versions and it was like okay and then I just I rewrote where I wrote a new letter for it and uh we're just like testing it now and it's doing really
well like you know it's not a huge amount of data but Facebook like five percent conversion rates on like really good big name email lists and stuff like that so uh yeah I think it'll be really successful and I gave James who's the operator uh five leads and we're split testing the first two so one is very emotional about sort of think back to the very first day that you got your dog were you excited nervous right like how did you feel and you know you probably feel like you would do anything for your dog
and like the bond has only grown but now that your dog's getting older like you know it needs your help and you know this is like essentially like it's that emotional idea where I wrote one which a lot of people may have seen because somebody on YouTube did a two-part breakdown of this offer called uh stem cell restore and it's a really good letter it's one of my you know by U.S standards and stuff it's a little bit aggressive but it's one of my favorite letters I wrote um and it starts with the idea of
like a like a time capsule because a lot of people in the U.S buried a time capsule especially in that market in like the 50s and 60s it was like a big thing where you put memorabilia like little things that are part of your life and it's like a box or something you bury it and you know the idea is to dig it back up in 10 20 30 years and be like wow look how life was back then but there's a lot of sentiment you know sentimentality to that and um if you bring up
that idea my thesis the reason I think that stem cell restore is one of my most favorite letters I ever wrote I think top like five favorite letters is because that was a big swing to take because it's it's different it's sort of talking about this emotion but that that the theory was that you're gonna immediately put somebody in a different emotional state they're going to be reflective if you're reflective then you move a little bit slower which means you're more open to more of my message if you're open to more of my message we
know from the data you know this from having the largest video hosting platform in Brazil that if somebody lasts for 30 seconds they're gonna last for two minutes they last for two minutes they're gonna last for four minutes right if you can the longer you can keep them the better so making them reflective and sentimental it's also creating a rush of dopamine all these neurotransmitters so in that case that was lead number one was about the first time you got your dog and all the emotion behind it lead number two that we're testing against was
about um make sure I get this right it's one about sort of like why the two dogs who are like the same age why can't one be so healthy and one looks like all old and beat up and stuff like that right um and there's like sort of all these curiosity elements so that one's doing pretty well too but the emotional one is winning but I guess so the point is you don't know that unless you have multiple kind of mini and again for the for that letter the second two-thirds of the letter is the
same for each of the four leads in fact the emotional one I just mentioned is maybe like a hundred words and then the other one to curiosity one is maybe 150 or 200 words and that's the same lead and that the conversion rate difference is significant and so I really a you gotta test stuff right it's amazing what even a different headline can do and B is is really doing them like I said sort of like micro leads or whatever you want to call like the first you know 30 seconds to two minutes like have
a bunch of variants because that makes a massive difference Yeah we actually yeah I'm the one of the few Brazilians that actually do that it's actually very very important because they have a different point of contact with the market and if you can hook them in a different way with a different expectation maybe it's better and in the data that you that you see every day how much of a difference do you think that this like micro leads they actually make have you seen I don't know double the conversions or something like that yeah it
makes a really big difference I mean you know another example Jeremy Reeves who's a offer owner here in the U.S and he's the former copywriter and member of copying starter which is like The Mastermind I have yeah we wrote a new letter for him we did two one was um for blood pressure and basically this just went live a couple months ago and it was funny because he he told us oh uh it's not converting that grade and you know obviously I wrote it like I had to we had another writer and the writer wasn't
good enough I had to rewrite it and um so anyway basically he was like theory on it was like oh I think I think we talked about like pine bark in it or something which is an ingredient that at least for blood pressure and we literally just like removed the mention of that word like just remove Pine Bar and then skyrocketed and is now doing really well in the US right and so it's not even really it sounds just like as simple as like a word uh Native path Chris Clark who's a really good operator
he owns native path which is a Big Brand in the US uh he was saying the same thing with collagen they had like their current control said collagen headline and even like because we wrote one for them to call and we talked about pavement caveman collagen and we haven't tested it was basically his control converts at 3.7 on cold traffic Facebook stuff like that our version converted at 2.7 so our version still did pretty good but it did be the control but he was like if you take out pavement collagen it might do a lot
better because he said how for their control they mentioned collagen uh you know in the very beginning and it was okay and then as soon as they removed it it skyrocketed and became this massive control so it's not even just you know that the micro leads make a huge difference but you know even just specific words make a huge difference um yeah so yeah it's really important I think why why do you think that maybe when you say college and you create an objection in their minds or we do have an extra I think maybe
yeah in the U.S collagen is is so well known at this point that I would I would guess people have a lot of let's go back to curiosity like you that our idea our thesis was that caveman collagen is different than normal collagen and so people will be curious to know what caveman collagen means but realistically what may have been happening and again the thing converts pretty well if we'd run that offer from scratch and have a control he would have been like over the moon happy but we had a really tough control to try
to beat so keep that in mind but um you know I think what maybe really is happening is there's a certain set of people who are like see collagen and there's no curiosity because they have a lot of preconceived notions of oh I know collagen I know college I've taken collagen before Oh college and I've heard people talking about that okay right there's an immediate versus if you're like um you know this like I don't know like this uh caveman gum or something like that I mean gums are weird but something that's just more broad
or like abstract or a little bit right then like what the hell is that and so I think that just the idea in the US because collagen is so well known this in every Whole Foods or you know every grocery store has got collagen supplements now all kinds of foods are like with collagen uh I think it's just you know it's not that you can't you obviously have to bring up those collagen and you have to make the argument for why it's different from other collagen right and going back to the mechanism and all that
kind of stuff but going back to that first 30 seconds to two minutes it's like you kind of need to be a little bit more hooked before you bring up collagen so that way you're not finding an excuse to leave right away yeah okay uh well that's actually really cool I never thought of that so thank you for that and okay so let's say that after you you create your offer you create a good mechanism and a lead that you also think it's good and you run it and it actually makes sales so it's actually
converting your call Traffic do you have any tips on how to increase the conversion of your vsl like something that you guys are doing over and over again so these offers that are just performing I mean there's there's a ton you know I think I always go back to testing additional leads as from a copy perspective the biggest you know mover because as we've discussed you know those first couple hundred words can make a huge difference I think looking at what you mean the whole lead or just the microwave the first 100 yeah the micro
lead I I I use it yeah I mean I would test unless unless you had an idea for a whole new lead but again mostly the the second half of the lead is going to be like you know policy stuff like other like news testimonials it's sort of the same idea again and again and again the same structure so that doesn't mean you couldn't test that but I'd be more interested in that very beginning I've described it before where essentially a sales letter and a sales funnel are the same idea right and so the more
people you hook in at the at the beginning the more people stay to the end and The Wider the funnel is whereas the fewer people you look at the beginning doesn't matter how good the rest of it is amount of people who reach the checkout page are going to be fewer right so if you look at it from that perspective of like it's like it makes sense to spend the most time up here because this is where you've got the most eyeballs and the most opportunity to keep people proceeding down your funnel versus if this
part sucks it doesn't matter anything you do down here doesn't matter right it's always going to matter more up here and so best of a copy perspective but you know there's a lot of interesting optimizations you can do like a testing price points obviously but a lot of people don't test price points to see what other people are doing with price points and they sort of just go with that but it's very interesting I have had offers that it goes both ways I've had offers that I was you know say a physical thing that was
49 for a bottle and I increased it to 69 for a bottle and like the conversions didn't change I just made more money I've had some offers where we started at 69 but it was 29 per bottle was way better for a single bottle um and even though the average order value was lower the amount of conversions was so much higher that we made way more money writing it that way it's really you know important I think people's Instinct often at least in the US I would I wonder if it's the same way in Brazil
is to price it uh lower actually I guess it's both like experienced operators I feel like always want to try and price it higher make more money but it's like you need to really test that I think a lot of people think like they have to go lower like they just they race they almost talked themselves out of money by trying to lower the price for no reason so I wouldn't you know just do that but I would I would test it um and then you know I think upsell number one can be kind of
overrated or sorry underrated people don't always pay enough attention there I mean you can get a lot of money from that first upsell whereas upsell two and three don't really matter I don't spend time on those I don't care about them um in most cases there's exceptions to everything yeah but it's crazy because in Brazil people they do the exact opposite of that so they did their upsell usually sucks but then they they think okay I have to make this way this really big funnel with upsell two three and then some down sales and whatever
and they just keep like they they make this very big funnel with lots of upsells and down sales at but at the end of the day it just it just doesn't work it doesn't matter because you can go back to the whole funnel perspective in general right it's like yeah this matters even the people who make it to episode 23 is so diminishing that you know generally upsell one depending on what you're offering and I mean there's a lot of factors but you know it should convert it like a minimum of 20 as high as
like 50 or 60 occasionally you hear about saying converting 70 when it's yeah it's all over the place but really like at least 30 to 40 for most things should be like so but the nut cell tube is like 10 12 maybe you get to 15 and upsell threes like five percent like it just doesn't matter right but the amount of effort you have to make to get upsell three to go from five to seven percent it's like if you just focus on the front end over here with the giant funnel or even upsell one
perhaps it's gonna make way more sense like it's the same idea where you know people who like uh people will create like an offer and it's like kind of working but not fully working right it's sort of like break even they're losing a little bit of money and so then they're like I'll create another offer and I'll create another offer and they simply to create like five six seven eight nine offers and it doesn't mean that if an offer is a total bomb it may make sense to just move on to another but if it's
kind of like middle of the road and shows promise and you think like it the first thing you should do is focus on trying to dial that one and more and if it's making pretty good money finding ways to make even more money from that offer before you try to replicate it a bunch of times because that's right that's the same kind of idea of I think upsells too where people are like I'll just keep adding more upsells and downsells that's going to fix it but it's like no like go fix the initial offer right
and since we're talking about that what do you think is like a average offer that you can invest more time and that maybe you can make it work because for my operation uh well it depends on your cost of course so if you're selling supplements then your robots will be higher but usually if I spend I don't know one dollar if I get one and a half back then I think that's good to to optimize if I get less than that then I think okay this offer I mean I can still test a lot of
leads and everything but I usually can't make it work to have that in the US like a process in your mind where if an offer give you this kind of stats and you know that if you change this and that you can make it work yeah I mean it definitely is not an exact science because I've I've seen this it would really depend for me on how like I would never take some shots of additional leads for example because I have a lot of cases of this like happening right like I wrote you know burn
which is like a video sell for B shred and like that thing did I don't know probably over 100 million dollars it was doing like 5 000 plus foreigns for supplements right oh my god um and but the initial lead was that like well initially was like 0.3 right it was like on call traffic on Facebook and it was like all right well [ __ ] that's not good but then I saw there basically showing the button from the very beginning for the vsl and I'm like hey you know we should put the button on
a timer and be sure it was at that point doing about 70 million a year um the next year they did 205 million a lot of that was because of Burn Right which has been cool but um and like you know they sort of like argued with me not about and Nick was just like what and then because they did a more ecomi like info stuff so um yeah yeah so that got to 0.6 but then I wrote another leaf for them and then I got to like over one percent which is for them what
they needed to scale like weight loss at a really high volume like a consistent one percent right on cold traffic on Facebook with their media buying and at that time and with all the costs and so the lead was a huge deal I mean it was basically a 33 lift but that was the difference between or maybe more like a 40 lift and that was the difference between scaling to 100 million dollars versus the offer it doesn't work right so there are cases like that um so I guess it comes down to me more so
it's like but if things like a total complete bomb then I'm trying to think like the numbers right it just it just but again I've had things like zero if you're at 0.7 bro as let's say but I'm like but I'm like man I know I know the market is there I mean I I really feel like I've got some other lead ideas that maybe would really resonate more maybe there's something with the language uh you know like so this dog offers an example the new version I wrote is basically double the conversions of the
old one but what I did there no one got tested pretty extensively but a huge part of it was the old one was talking about it was like a probiotic so it was talking about like gut health and like your dog's like messy poops and you know gas and things like that which is what all these dog offers talk about but I own a dog and I'm like I I was sitting there and I'm like you know what like I just don't I never sit around being like Oh my dogs my dog's poops are too
messy like if you have a dog like your dog might have like diarrhea sometimes but nobody's like it's not a real bleeding neck problem where you really like care it just it just doesn't work people oh it's probiotics I'll talk about digestion but it's like this version that that I wrote really focused on on aging and how probiotics support something called methylation which is a really important process in your body and essentially is the idea that you can give your dog not extend their life necessarily but that you can give it more years of of
good life more healthy quality years um right and then and by the way when you do that and I just went to Amazon go back to research and I was like what are the top two supplements on Amazon for dogs the two categories and it was like allergies and joints right not anything about poop and digestion and all this other stuff so I just started talking about allergies and Joints more right so I changed the same products but I changed like the promise and the pain points and the mechanism so I did rewrite it but
again that that's the difference between you know this offer that I would imagine will do you know I don't know 15 to 30 million in the next year you know could have could potentially do way more and an offer that never gets off the ground so you know so I don't know the conversion rate wasn't like bad on the first offer it was probably in the middle of the road but but I knew I'm like I know dogs it's a good Niche like I know that lots of people buy stuff for their dogs um I
know pet supplements can work so if I know the market is good and the conversion rate is just not there then I probably am more inclined to like yeah I try to rewrite it a couple times or at least once or twice before I'd completely give up on it so Stefan thank you so much for your time here and I hope that you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did and yeah I will send you the link for the podcast and stay tuned thank you so much for having me thanks everybody all right thank
you
