such a great guest for you today we're beaming her in all the way across from the atlantic so welcome to the show sono uh behel uh you are career strategist and hr expert uh so welcome to the show and thank you for taking the time to chat with us thank you for having me i am ecstatic to be here yes and so sono can you tell us a little bit about the topic that we're we're going to discuss today which is salary negotiation and i think this is one of the things that people get tripped
up all the time with their job search so why do you think people end up sort of you know having anxiety about this and end up sort of you know tripping up on this question yes um first of all i want to give the disclaimer that salary negotiation is a topic which you will get a lot of advice on from a lot of different people so everything i'm sharing today i want to give this disclaimer take it with a pinch of salt take it toss it if it doesn't make sense for you but you know
the idea is to share some universal truths uh and the second quick thing i wanted to say is i've prepared something specially for today uh a free downloadable and um you know i'll share it later uh the reason i think andrew salary negotiation trips a lot a lot of people up is perceptions and reality which are very different and um there is massive fear um related to asking for more funnily enough we are born fantastic negotiators you look around with kids it's a very natural ability they have a fantastic sense of timing they know parents
buying behavior right and i say they i mean we all used to be kids and at some point it's subdued so i want to talk about what we can do to address all of this so that people who are watching today uh you know uh prepare the best way possible because we're talking serious money here andrew we're we're talking half a million so that's the bad news half a million dollars and if you're in a different part of the world you can translate that into your local currency this is the amount of money you will
lose out if you don't negotiate that's one third of people out there who don't negotiate if you compound it and the other bad news andrew is women um women is not bad news what is bad news is women don't ask and i want to talk about three things here women don't ask because it's um the fear element and that's a big problem because of the wage gap and also the fact that women live longer than men so our money has to last us longer and second there's something called pink tax pink tax google it anything
you buy in the supermarket or a hair you know appointment you pay more than men do and and the third thing which is is the pregnancy penalty anybody who's had kids here you know it's not always easy to get back so it's more expensive to live as a woman in today's world so this is the bad news but you know we will get to the good news and and all the tips yeah definitely and you know it's such an important topic because some people change jobs and this is a chance a lot of times for
people to actually get a bump in salary to when they switch jobs and if you accept a lower salary or something like that it can really set you up to fall behind your colleagues or even just in your industry in general and what can people do to negotiate a starting salary that's right for them and also our producers are putting that link to your website in in the comments so people can be watching out for that perfect so the the good news is negotiation is a skill that you can learn everyone can learn it and
i'm gonna break this down into three so before negotiation like the formal negotiation during and after so before negotiation is the foundation and you gotta get this right we're gonna start with uh the very first part and that is related to your homework to understand what is your self worth you've got all the details out there um you know online you google salaries in my in my region you've got everything in there you've got to check it out understand it a lot more detail but my favorite thing to do here is talk to real recruiters
in your field in your industry because they have very up-to-date information and they have access to things like robert half robert walters salary surveys and they can tell you what is what it is you can expect to make at your level so the research is critical because if you don't know what you want anything will make you happy right the second thing i want to talk about is the fear the fear is real and i want to break this fear down into three why are we scared to ask for more um the first is if
i ask for more they're not gonna like me that's not really true because 82 percent of all recruiters or hiring managers expect you to negotiate and yet only one third of us do so and i would say to the contrary andrew uh people who are going to be in you know going into roles like sales or procurement etc negotiation is that's a great time to showcase your negotiation skills if you don't i would say you lose out the second fear that people have is if i ask for more they're going to rescind the offer they're
going to take it away and i can tell you that is extremely rare that is not done unless there's you know force measure big recession or a crisis or a pandemic right or you didn't do things the right way you know maybe you were too uh sort of you know they didn't feel like there was an alignment of values those are very rare things right and the third is they'll say no so what it's status quo they've already said no if you don't ask the answer is always no so the second thing is fear and
you've got to get that right so this is the before negotiation another thing related to homework is knowing your i call it man man minimum acceptable number this is based on the research you have and you keep in mind what is your operating cash flow think like a company you're a company of one what are your expenses what's coming in what do you need to have a good life right i'm not saying annual trips to monaco be realistic know your men minimum acceptable number and i like to add a little 10 for contingency and understand
what your expenses are so with this and with your research you have a very good idea so this is before now during now that's where the fun begins and the rubber meets the road and everybody's like oh my god how's it going to go i would say the very first thing you need to keep in mind is you're on the same team there's a lot of advice out there that says you're in it to win it and you're elbowing and it's like oh my gosh you know you got to get maximum value out of it
and you got to beat your opponent not really right they've taken months to find you like i as a recruiter sometimes i've taken one year to find someone and i'm so close to the end and i'm about to close the deal last thing i want is to see this fold you know as a recruiter my job is to make sure you're happy with the offer you receive your job is to make sure you're happy with the offer you receive so you both have the same goal if you think about it please remember to keep this
in mind i can't stress this enough and second during negotiations and they give you an offer take your time never ever say yes or no immediately take it home discuss it with some trusted friends or family do your research prepare a list of questions and particularly i would hear it's important to say that you know if you're moving locations different city or different country the gross figure they'll give you will be like wow i'm so tempted to say yes that sounds amazing yeah but keep in mind that's a very seductive looking figure but you know
there's deductions maybe you didn't think about so it's worth it to you know spend time and you know do the math on there uh and uh this one is a funny one always be polite always say thank you please i understand um you know i understand this is uh not easy show mpc i can't stress this enough so everything i'm sharing today is an acronym format and that's in the in the freebie a is always be polite so you can anchor that's another a properly and here andrea i want to give an example of kids
because kids are amazing at this and um a few days ago my eight-year-old this is a funny story my eight-year-old goes to my um husband and says dad i would love this lightsaber and it glows in the dark it's amazing i gotta have it husband's like okay let's check it out he went to amazon and it's two hundred dollars i'm like my husband's like eyes popped out they're like uh yeah we're not getting that uh yeah i know there's another one for 20. my husband's like you know it's gonna break in two days and then
he said you know actually there's a two dollar uh skin which i want for my latest game so when it comes to anchoring they just know so you know you start at a sort of higher amount which you know will be comfortable but you've built contingencies so take the example of kids because we always tell kids you will get it if you ask nicely what's the magic word please so we gotta remember that as grown-ups as well so we have a question here also from mark and i think this is a good one and a
lot of people run into this where they mark says if you're told that the pay is set by corporate do you accept that at face value or push back because sometimes there will be an offer that says this is an offer and it's non-negotiable take it or leave it that's a fantastic question mark and i think that it comes down to the companies some companies for example nonprofit or startups the salaries are public right so it's given and you can't negotiate because it's gonna affect the internal parity and equity of the rest of the team
members so i have a solution for that and that's one of the tips i was coming to is everything is negotiable everything and if you are not sure um if you know they're not going to accept it try the bonus try um you know learning uh opportunities try uh a better title a corner office um flexible working hours there's no end if you're to be moving can they pay for housing can they pay for the entire location can they pay for your kids schooling child care uh my husband or wife has to learn a new
language we're going to france um can they pay for my commuting can they pay for la um what is the other thing i was going to say um lunch all everything matters and there is no end and i've got all those written down in the freebie but honestly sky is the limit you've got to ask you've got to ask nicely and if the answer is no it's no but at least you asked right i i just respect myself a little more you know even at the airport right i'm like uh can i get an upgrade
like it's really embarrassing but you can see the flight's not very full can i get an upgrade to business club sure and i'm like whoa there you go you know asking and not asking yeah and actually i i've heard and i wish i remember who told me the story but they had someone who actually negotiated that in their you know as part of the deal for them signing on is that they got one lunch every month with a c-suite executive at the company and what happened was they ended up forming a really good bond with
some of the executives even though they were a lower level employee and it really helped with their promotion so that was actually in the hiring agreement that they got to have lunch once a month with sort of a high level manager and then pretty soon they were able to climb the ranks because they had those power brokers as connections so it was actually so that's something else that shows you know it is negotiable it's beautiful what you just said because the the beauty of this is it comes down to what you value if you value
promotion mobility that's a great example if you value i love my work but i also love my private time you value flexible hours there's no right or wrong you got to do what's best for you and and your situation yeah and we have a question here from lauren and i think this is a good question too who do you recommend puts out the first number there's a lot of controversy around this and i think there's the people sometimes worry that on an application it'll say you know you know anticipated starting salary or something like that
how do you navigate that space and and should you wait for them to give you a number that's a that's a tricky question because you're going to get 10 different answers and you've got to choose the answer that matters to you i'm not an employment lawyer but i do know in certain parts of the united states and maybe even rest of the world there's so you know certain questions that are illegal this is one of them what are your you know what are you currently making now there's no black and white for me andrew but
i do want to say that if money comes up very early in the conversation particularly i don't love it i want to lead with what is this role about because firstly i'm not shopping right i am serious so i'm like listen i'm really excited about the position and i'm not here to waste your time i'd love to discuss numbers when or we are closer to an offer till then um you know i just want to understand the role a little bit better you've got to sort of you can try this sort of technique and see
if it works or not but if they are aggressive sometimes or you know they don't take no for an answer then i would say is you can say um all right based on my research of market data for my position my function my industry my geography i have a seen and i have been approached for roles that range between x and y and x should be i don't use the word should a lot x should be your minimum acceptable number plus 10 and then take it up but i wouldn't start with that and i wouldn't
even ask if it if it doesn't come up in the conversation so hey would you have any questions for me andrew yeah so how much does this pay i feel like try not to leave with that yeah no i think that's a that's a a really good point and the people i've talked to who um you know they're experts in negotiation and lawyers they often talked about once you put a number out there it's an anchor um so everything will be sort of go back to that number and actually we have a question here from
joel who says that he low-balled himself in an initial interview and they finally sent him an offer after five months because of the pandemic uh they finally got him an offer but now he wants to renegotiate so is it possible to do that now that they've sent him an offer and he sort of lowballed back uh five months ago good question um we've all done that before so don't be hard on yourself if you've lowballed yourself however when you receive an offer and when you have already signed i don't know if he signed already andrew
but when you've already signed don't negotiate again i personally don't love it as hr or recruitment i i feel like that person you know cannot be sort of you know not really trustworthy um but you can i mean if you've accepted it then accept it and then within three months or six months you see your performance you see you're making a big difference on the bottom line on the top line then you can ask and say what are the what is the process you know for me to move to this grade focus on grade level
leveling up because that comes with more money as opposed to just focusing on the money aspect yeah definitely and and actually speaking of sort of you know possibly low balling we have a question here from brianna who says i'm a college graduate looking for my first full-time job i have about eight months experience in my desired industry what can i negotiate and i think a lot of entry-level people they they stress about this because they may know what an entry level position pays but they they may not feel like they need to ask for that
or they worry about that so what is your advice for entry level employees yes a lot of entry-level employees uh entry-level you know grads or or new employees have this notion that they don't have enough leverage to negotiate and i cannot disagree more at the end of the day we're not all equal you have a certain set of life experiences that distinguish you from everyone else so first of all take advantage of linkedin oh my gosh so many um people do not do it even in 2021 have a fantastic profile that showcases how awesome you
are your banner your headline your picture your about section etc um and the other thing is you've done projects you've done internships you were i don't know a leadership role within the student council or you had a very specific skill set and you were known to be a you know single point of contact for that show all of that but not in a vacuum show all of that and how it is extremely valuable to the company you've got to have a little bit of translate you know you don't want your skills to be lost in
translation you want to show how all the awesomeness that you have is relevant to the company and and if the company is hiring uh entry-level roles guess what they want a fresh set of eyes and you bring that fresh set of ice everything that you think is a weakness of yours because you don't have enough experience i want you to convert it into a strength yeah i think that that's really good and obviously i think entry-level employees they always run into people who will sometimes underestimate them and i always tell tell students and people who
are just graduating that is actually such a great uh tool for you to use because you get to prove them wrong and you get to sort of shock them about how great you actually are so i think that's really good advice and um we have a question here um that talks about um you know how do you negotiate as a returning employee and i think this brings up um maybe a larger question sometimes about um you know if they have asked for your current salary or your previous salary in the united states at least there
are several states that have outlawed that um so they can't ask about what what your previous or current salary is um and that's coming from evelyn um she's so she's wondering what do you do as a returning employee and obviously what do you do if they ask if um what your current salary is so um evelyn it comes down to what you're comfortable with right and uh if it's illegal um then you know you can say that actually you know for example i'll give you an example you are not allowed to ask about marital status
children it's the same thing it's very irrelevant so one thing you can say is okay thank you for asking can you help me understand what made you ask that question you got to sort of put it back in their court right now it comes down to what you're comfortable with if you're comfortable with it share the number and i know this is a little bit uh controversial but if you've been on a higher side share the number so they have an idea if you've been on the lower side the issue is not that you're sharing
it the issue is i'm sorry to say this slimy recruiters who are gonna squeeze every last penny and give you the dough as possible that's very short-term thinking and i'm gonna vent here for 20 seconds because this has an impact later because when these people will join like i'm having a i'm having a beer with with jim and mark at the bar and i'm like what they making hundred and i'm at 70k what on earth so good recruiters want to make sure your internal equity is is good so to answer that question evelyn um put
it back to them and you can also then say based on my experience and you have certain skills i have a detailed video on my youtube channel on what to do for long-term unemployment when you're coming back and i don't want to get into the details here but there is a way that you can convert this so-called weakness of yours if you do a swot analysis incorporate you know sw-18 swot analysis how can you convert the fact that you have a gap in your resume into a strength into an opportunity and address the threat you
can address the threat by saying you're not gonna you know your reason for taking the gap is done maybe you were unwell or you know had a sick relative um the the strength is you're different from everyone else you've had a gap and in that gap you've learned certain skills life skills which are very valuable that others don't have yeah maybe you just became a mom for example and oh my gosh new moms like ceos right taking everything taking care of a child uh catering uh health nurse chauffeur everything but also organizational skills productivity skills
right and how can you convert this into an opportunity the opportunity evelyn is you are available to join next week for me that's a win-win when somebody looks competent but they're immediately available as well yeah i think that's really great advice we have a lot of other people asking about career gaps and uh so i think that'll help them i saw uh prativa um asking about that and machu pas so um i i think they'll take a lot away from that and also i i think you know a lot of people who have career gaps
they they tend and i don't think i think anyone's just uh you know bad at self-evaluation so a lot of people they say oh i've been out of work all this time but in reality they've been doing stuff with um you know their kids school organizations local community organizations so it's not like you've just been necessarily sitting in the house all that time you've been doing stuff yeah and and uh the attitude has to change andrew i've been on a break so i'm less than you that has to change because you've been doing things which
are amazing and you've got to show that as a strength because you know volunteer work etc and anyone who rejects you because life happened to you says more about them than it does about you it's not personal and you know we have a question here from janelle uh who says that she's looking to change careers after age 40. she has an associate's degree she's black she's a woman how does she begin and i think also there's a question of salary for people who are changing careers so what's your advice for janelle janelle your best friends
in the whole wide world are transferable skills and you've got to firstly focus on the learning aspect and then focus on the transferable skill learning aspect if they were to hire someone with less experience than you in that job would they be able to do it for less amount of money probably but if you have the necessary courses skill set etc you know you can walk the talk you use their language then it definitely helps you and the second thing i'm going to say is you have certain skills janelle i don't know what you were
doing before so let's say you were doing x before and now you want to do y there's certain things you were doing in x um problem solving um you know and the new one says we need analytical skills they're pretty much the same thing you know a tomato tomato uh then the other one the first one said excellent communication skills and you've got something so map it there's a way to do it and that helps you to build the messaging the messaging you want is i had this career i was pretty fantastic at it and
this is the new career i want and i can do it and the other thing you want to do is you know there's an expression by there's a quote by rumi um when you're setting out on a journey never take advice from someone who's never left home so talk to people who are already two steps ahead of you don't talk to people who'll tell you this is impossible trust me mindset is 80 of any job search or career transition and instead talk to people who have been there done that and who are doing today what
you would love to do have informational chats broaden your network have a target which is like i don't know two coffee chats a day be like you know really have a proper agenda with it and you're gonna get there yes and i think setting that goal as you said you know two coffee chats a day or something like that i think that's one of the things that can keep people going during a job search when maybe they don't hear back from applications or they're not hearing back from other people you could set a goal of
saying listen i want to have two informational interviews a week or two chats like that and you're accomplishing something and it's actually gonna get you really far ahead in your job search so i think that's a really good piece of advice and um we've heard back from joel who is the person i believe who said he lowballed himself a while ago and he added more information uh so he said he has not accepted the offer yet but they reached out for a final interview saying they're ready for him to start next month and he expects
an offer soon so does that give him a window to renegotiate yes yes just because you said said you just because you said yes verbally doesn't mean you're tied to it obviously explain why and you could say based on you know some new research that i've done or some market data um and you know joel maybe you're let's not lie here but if you are having conversations with other people that's leverage for you so take advantage of that as well and it will not hold it on their head like some sort of threat um but
that makes you look more desirable and the combination of scarcity and uh urgency like you know they're expecting me to join if you have that that definitely helps that's the oldest trick in buyer psychology but yes the short answer is is yes and i have a quick tip here because one of the tips that i didn't speak about if you can joel because let's face it negotiation is uncomfortable it is if you can try and do the negotiation on a thursday that's a very weird thing but there's research out there that says when you do
negotiation on a thursday people are in more of a giving mood because they want it to be over before their weekend even begins yeah that no actually and also i i always find thursdays are just a really nice day because friday's around the corner and exactly you know monday is the farthest point away do not start this on a monday and in fact i have a bonus tip here somebody mentioned on my youtube channel thursdays i can't tell you how many people put in the comments hey listen this worked all your tips worked to the
tea and it happened to be a thursday and one guy said you know for me it was even better thursday after lunch because you don't want to talk to a hangry person um on any given day of the week so they are well fed they're happy and ask ask nicely uh joel wish you the best yes thank you yeah i think that is uh such a good tip about not negotiating with a hangry person hungry and angry uh and we have a question i think this is a really good question so maybe and on from
kelly um and it's it's something that there's been a lot of conversations about recently and she says there's a reluctance out there to talk about salary amongst co-workers and peers how do we do research if there's a reluctance to share that information and obviously there's been a lot of research and discussion lately about co-workers sharing their salaries um what do you think about the space and is this something that you should ask your co-workers about or how how should that conversation happen yeah no that's a great question i think it's very delicate um sorry what
was the name um andrew kelly i can't believe i said jelly uh there's there's uh it's delicate and and kelly you know there is a zone where co-workers become friends you have that friend you know getting into that friend zone if you're there and you feel comfortable asking which also means you feel comfortable answering then go ahead and do so it's just that the world we live in today like in the perfect world we would all know each other's salaries it would be it would be public information um and a lot of companies do that
already they know that you know you startups non-profits they do that but in the rest of you know corporate uh world um you have a lot of legacy which means people are were hired on a like a ball a crazy number which didn't make any sense and maybe they're much higher than you today right and they may not feel comfortable sharing so approach it with a little a bit of sugar and a bit of salt um it's a great resource if you can if you think there is a trust um element there and you're also
comfortable sharing what your own salary is yeah i think that's a really good tip and i think you know you could probably judge your co-workers about how exactly that feels to them um so i think that that's a really good piece of advice and and kelly you can also ask did they negotiate when they were hired and yeah give you an idea and also i think you know when you're doing those informational coffees or those chats those are also a really good way to ask because those people um you know had been in your position
at one time if they are you know a little bit senior to you now and you could say what should you expect in that role yes and they could tell you what they made or they could tell you what their friends made or something or who who their direct reports make um so that's a really good piece to sort of say like crack open the the number game yes great well thank you so much sonal this has been really such a great conversation we have so many people joining in on the chat and i think
a lot of people got a lot out of this i hope so thank you so much for having me [Music]
