Growing Up as the Grandson of an LDS Apostle (Joseph B. Wirthlin) - Greg Gerritsen Pt. 1 | Ep. 1661

Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon stories podcast I am your host for today uh John delin it is September 8th 2022 and it has been a busy few weeks and months here on Mormon stories podcast but I am just over the moon excited for today's episode I know I say that frequently but today um is a really special warm stories interview Uh today we are interviewing uh Greg or Gregory Garretson the grandson of Mormon Apostle of the late or deceased Mormon Apostle and I'd even say beloved Mormon Apostle Joseph B worthland and

uh for those of you who have never been Mormon um the the the fir the the apostles you know the Mormon church has a first presidency which is a prophet and then two counselors they are Apostles um just like Jesus had 12 Apostles they're considered Apostles and special Witnesses of Christ and then within the Mormon Church there's a quorum of of The Twelve Apostles again just like Jesus assembled so these 15 men are I think the closest thing to royalty that you could imagine within a Mormon context these are men that are viewed as special

Witnesses of Christ they are viewed as people who have likely spoken with Christ or met Christ that's at least the cultural perception of them uh they you know when they walk into an Auditorium of a thousand people or 15 000 people or thirty thousand people everybody stands they are revered as the right-hand man right-hand man of Jesus and is the most righteous men in the world by you know anywhere between 5 and 16 million Mormons across the world so if you if you think about royalty uh that's about as close as it gets so um

of course it has been very rare to Have family members of Apostles come on Mormon stories podcast to kind of share their stories and having said that there have been a few so we did have the son of Spencer B Kimball uh who was a Mormon prophet he did come on um Ed Kimball was his name it's a great episode he was a faithful Mormon but a progressive liberal Mormon he's come on Mormon stories we had uh the granddaughter of Um M Russell Ballard come on Laura Roper I believe uh I'm a little fuzzy on

the names she came on and talked about being the granddaughter of M Russell Ballard and then we also had two of the grandchildren of Neely Maxwell come on Mormon stories podcast Ashley Sanders and Kimball Sanders very early on in the time of Mormon stories they were still like BYU student age I may be forgetting Um uh one or two others but those are the ones that come to mind but it's relatively rare what's more interesting to me is the fact that I've met and corresponded with many let's just say children and or grandchildren of current

and former Mormon apostles and uh many who have completely lost their faith and even left the church what's been really Stark to me is to learn about this kind of either explicit or Un unspoken code which is that if you're in the family of a Mormon apostle you would never ever come out publicly and talk about it and so that's what makes today a really special interview because we have the grandson of Joseph B worthland beloved Mormon Apostle who has gone through his own faith Journey that we'll talk about we won't give away the ending

but not only has he had you know grew up as the son of an apostle has stories to Tell about his grandpa and grandma whom he loves and and really respects but he's also willing to talk about his life as the grandson of an apostle Mormon Apostle the good and the Bad and the Ugly about that what was hard for him so we're going to be telling his story first about what it was like the positive and the negative about um that we'll talk about his own faith Journey that's going to be part one of

our interview today So that'll be a couple hours and then part two of the interview will be just an open q a where I just ask him a gazillion questions about his memories of his grandfather and his impressions of uh what it's like to be a Mormon apostle from the point of view of a grandchild of that apostle and Greg you've been really wanting to be careful that you're not trying to be the expert on your grandpa you're just you're just wanting To share your memories and experiences but welcome but welcome to Mormon stories and

thank you so much for being willing to come on well thank you and thank you for having me and I do want to to have the disclaimer that these are my opinions my experiences and in no way am I trying to be the spokesman for the family or uh be the authority of figure of of what it was like because everybody has Different experiences and they see things through their own eyes and I don't want to take away from any of that but this is just what I experienced as well as what I saw and

perceived to be reality so I gave and thank you so much for being willing to come on I think this is a real Act of Courage some people may not even get how in in my view courageous this is Um but I really appreciate it uh and I know many of my viewers and listeners will too I it may seem weird but is it okay do you mind talking about this is there a explicit or an implicit code and if so like before we jump into your story what family or church culture would would be

coming to your mind as you're considering reaching out to me yeah and saying I may or may not want to come on the podcast what would be the Familial or cultural influences that would be coming down to bear on you there's definitely pressure not to draw attention to the the family especially the Legacy and it's it's a very unspoken rule but it it is there and you you don't do anything that would ever tarnish the name the legacy of the Brethren and meaning what meaning the Brethren meaning who the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles and

the the first presidency the church you don't you don't ever do anything that would embarrass them and that's that's the code that I think the the the family kind of lets other family know that that's a code because I I've never heard anything from my granddad telling us what we're allowed and not allowed to do But I definitely heard that from Aunts Uncles parents that you have to act in a certain way or there's there's things that are okay and not okay and you just know that something like this would be be shunned be it'd

be frowned upon very very quickly so is this is this a scary thing for you or do you have would you would fears or worries come up no I wouldn't say I don't I don't have fears over this um I do wonder how it's going to be received by family I think I can see some uh some people not not taking it too well but at the same time I think I think there's more benefit from from light being shed on things then then uh the risk of upsetting a few people so so let's start

there with your Intention let's have you say what your intentions are not and then let's have you say what your intentions are in doing this interview thank you I I really appreciate that uh because I I don't want the Limelight I'm not looking to have it be an attention grabbing scheme by myself I want people to understand that that first of all I really believe that my granddad had the best intentions I I don't believe that he was trying to Deceive people but also I want people to know that there's a lot of man Worship

in the church and a lot of a lot of people play such high uh reverence for these people that they often put the the people before uh their own families they they They try to to get in front of these people so much that they don't realize the the human aspects of of these people as well as like what's really important in life uh do you really need to impress someone that you've never met and that you you have no like you have no business of of trying To impress someone that they won't remember you

I mean it's just with with a church with 16 million people and who knows how many active when when they meet someone there is little to no chance that they are going to remember that person yet like over the course of my life when my granddad was alive there were a lot of people that that worked really hard to get in front of him And like I think the overall thing that I want to get out of this is that people people should not work so hard to try to impress someone that in the at

the end of the day you have no no chance of of really making making a big impact on and the people that you do have a big impact on are the ones around you and that's where your energy should be focused on so I also for me I'm really interested in knowing The Human Side both of what it's like to be a family member of someone who has given disproportionate attention and power and influence what it's like to be the family member right of that person so your your story especially about how you were treated

on your mission and even after was really pull up my heartstrings quite a bit the pressures and the distortions but also to humanize The office of the Apostle to talk about what's hard about the role what yeah what what made your grandpa uncomfortable what things he didn't like about it what some of the yeah interpersonal Dynamics were in in the position that people wouldn't see or understand not not as sort of like a National Enquirer kind of like right but but just to humanize every your grandpa and your grandma and everyone around them right and

a lot of a lot of those I I will put out the disclaimer that those a lot of those will be Impressions and just first-hand experiences from my point of view and again this is not his autobiography it's not his words uh as he would say it but just your experience exactly yeah all right well uh uh Gregory Garretson where does your Mormon story begin and you can call me Greg I go by Greg hi Greg I only go by Gregory when I'm in trouble and one of my when my mom and dad were really

mad at me so all right Greg where's your morning well I I grew up in a family of seven kids I was born in North Ogden Utah my uh my family uh had lived there for a little while I was I'm the sixth of seven seven kids so there's I have four brothers and two sisters and I'm just right at the end Um you're I'm assuming since your last name is at worthland that your mom was the worthless is that right yes yes so do you want to talk about where she fit in the family

yeah so so my mom was kind of the middle child uh she has one brother and I believe seven uh sisters ooh so she they had a they had a big family I've I've got over 40 cousins and that's nine kids by Joseph B worthless and his wife is that right yes okay so big family where did she grow up she Grew up uh just right by East high oh so that's High School Musical that's yeah High School Musical film and then is that is that kind of like Harvard Yale area or is that Sugar

House is that yeah she grew up on Military Drive oh yeah yeah yeah so yeah that's where the huntsman's lived you know that's yes the mcconkeys did they live near there uh I yeah yeah I think so yeah yeah that area and there's quite a few people that I guess that's a very popular place and uh But my my mom and dad were both born in 1950 and my dad grew up in uh the Highland area okay and uh so he went to Highland High my my mom went to East High and these are like

five miles apart he's high in Highland higher not far apart right yeah yeah and I mean for me where I grew up that would be the same high school but down here in the city it's yeah yeah it's more uh condensed so it's kind of referred to as East bench Salt Lake City is that fair to say yes yeah yeah yeah very much so it's it's within walking distance of the University of Utah right we'd always when we went to football games we'd park at their place and and go and walk yeah walk to the

stadium yes okay so so yeah I I mean I grew up in a pretty big family we uh we had a lot of a lot of sibling rivalries and lots of lots of cousin time uh with with having over 40 cousins I think there was 42. I'd the numbers I'm I'm not going to be dead on with a family that big so well are the garretsons your dad's side is that Pioneer stock yeah so it was very uh my dad's side is uh so my my dad's parents they divorced when they were when he was

about 11. and they had uh so his his grandpa from his mom is tor Leaf Kannapolis the the artist that did the Mormon handcart monument at Temple Square nice and he's done quite a bit of artwork for for the church so we had that Legacy on on his side of the family and uh then his his dad and his his grandpa was was kind of a rough guy he was I wouldn't say he was active at all and his his dad was in and out of activity his whole church life and it was kind of

When I grew up we kind of joked about having the extremes on both ends of the spectrum of having an apostle on one hand and then I had uh a grandpa that I I this is something that a lot of my family doesn't like to talk about but I had an uncle that I had no idea even existed until I was 21 years old how that why is that uh just because was there something about him that made your family not talk about his existence uh it's just just an unpleasant reality That uh my my

grandpa had a meaning Elder worthin no no my my dad's okay my dad's dad okay so that was that was the polar uh extremes uh we had we had an apostle on one end and then we had a grandpa that had uh a son that none of us knew about on the other end and so I grew up for like a troubled kind of a troubled family yeah it was it was it was a family with a lot of baggage on on that end yeah and so It was I wouldn't say they were bad people

at all but there was just a lot more drama on that end of the family okay and so it was it was something that was always uh there but there wasn't much that was talked about about that family so what was your dad's profession and did your mom have a profession other than also stay-at-home mom yeah so uh my dad was a low vision therapist so when when and most people don't know what that is Because it's it's a very small branch of uh um it's not a doctor but it's a rehability rehabilitation specialist and

when when eye doctors can't help people that are legally blind he goes in and helps them cope with the site that they have or okay with with getting around with what they don't have it almost sounds like occupational therapy but focused on Vision yes so yes That's that's probably the best explanation okay so he he did that he also would uh to make ends meet my mom worked she worked many jobs I remember when she was when I was little she worked at a gym it was called desert gym for people that are familiar familiar

with that it used to be a church-owned fitness center and then they sold that but but she worked there for a number of years in Ogden and then she worked for a dentist Office basically the rest of my growing up years working as a as a clerk there okay so yeah what was the how what was the how was Mormonism manifested in your let's just say your childhood years how faithful was your dad how faithful was your mom what were the spiritual or religious influences what were your Mormon practices growing up oh we were Very

Orthodox okay what did that mean we were very devout Mormons um Family Home Evening was was a very forceful uh activity like we we had to be there uh it was every week every week every Monday it was either Sunday or Monday depending on what my dad's schedule was but it was I mean my my dad was Pretty by the book uh and over the top in trying to check every box so he believed we had to nail down for for uh family prayers at even at Meal Time oh wow so yeah you're all we're

all there for family dinner on a Tuesday night and you're kneeling for family prayer he would want us kneeling down and and there's quite a few of us as soon as he would nail down what we would Get up so what do you mean we would we would uh we weren't always especially me I didn't like I don't like rules that I didn't see uh a point behind so he would try to get us to do those things but he couldn't always get us to do those things Okay so so I mean he was he

was very kind of Let's check this box with reading the scriptures as a family with doing all those things so I would say we if if it was suggested by a leader in the church to do something we we did it and so it was a very I would say we we tried to appear as a perfect family church wise what were some of the rules like the Standards that were most uh influential or emphasized in your family just to give even our non-mormon listeners a sense for the standards of your family um oh so

I'll give you something so swearing oh yeah it was it happened uh but it was not allowed yeah so and I mean then I don't want to I don't want to paint my my parents as villains or anything no but I mean they would and not so much my mom I my mom is a saint like she she has such a great Heart uh I only heard her swear I a couple times in my life and and it was it was one of those when she did it you're like Whoa We really pushed her over

the edge but my dad my dad could could use some language and and what he did it was uh you know you know you're in trouble but you can't talk about it you can't you can't you can't talk about how he he did that so because that was a it was an Unwritten rule that we don't swear but you don't want to bring attention to it so like so like Sabbath observance oh Sabbath what was that like it was very the rules it was very strict although what were the rules uh the rules were you

couldn't you couldn't uh well you had to be at church you had to be early which I was always awful of being at church early and my kids will also say that I'm never early to church And so but that like you you you're at church uh and and back then church was three hours a day and I mean growing up my dad always had meetings so he'd be at church most the day uh and we was he in leadership callings he was in leadership Collins most of my growing up years so like wizzy Bishop

at some point he was Bishop when I was 16 he was Bishop but even younger he was in the bishopric at younger ages and yeah And so I he was he had various State callings uh he was in the stake presidency after he was a bishop uh so I mean I I had lots of lots of uh times with him trying to interview me as bishop and I I didn't like that so and and I can save that story for later but yeah but yeah there was uh he was gone a lot he was on

the stand a Lot uh as a when I was little so I remember sitting on a row with six other kids and my my mom and and being at the youngest a lot of my my siblings by the time I was 10 one by one they all started moving away so a lot of my growing up years when I have really good memories is with fewer and fewer siblings and as my dad has his bishop and he was he was gone a lot more and away from the home so our Sabbath Day rules changed with

him being gone are you saying they relaxed they relaxed not because he relaxed but more he was gone he was gone and I was able to get away with more things so I we I I'm a big sports fan I played football and baseball and uh basketball occasionally but we would we would we loved watching NFL football on Sundays and that was that was like our our thing we I never missed a a big Game on on a Sunday and we'll learn that that's that your grandpa Joseph B worthland played football for the use so

in that sense you both you and your grandpa sure to love for football yes oh definitely what are you saying your dad would not have been a fan of of football NFL football being watched on Sunday is that what you're saying it did it depended on the the mood he was in There there were days that he would like to watch the games and then there were days that he said we should turn this off and it was it was hit hit or miss but uh man I I would have loved to have an iPad

and ability to watch it on a tablet because then I would I never would have missed a game so any other thing you want to say about like family Rules strictness family standards yeah I mean it was just we were expected to be Eagle Scouts we were expected to by a certain age not a certain age uh I think I got it uh uh you know I was I probably drug my heels the most out of all of my my brothers getting it if I didn't have uh there was there was a a an old

neighbor that really mentored me and he he pretty much forced me to get my Eagle Scout he'd come up and pick me up from my house and he uh his name is Don Brimhall and I know I know some of his family members listen Von Brody was a Brimhall yes yes I think yes and I think there's a family connection there yeah and Don Don was a World War II vet that he loves scouting because of what it it taught people to prove to be prepared to be good uh military people and so he wanted

he wanted everybody to serve in the military and to to get their Eagle Scout so he he basically Made sure I got my Eagle Scout so I got it around 14 or 15 years old and you're saying that's late that was late for myself so your brothers the earliest brother I think they were about 13 early 14. I I was I was late compared to my brothers only in Mormonism is 14 years old late yeah he's an age to get your eagle sky and and without dawn I would have not ever got it and he

I mean he he had so many stories that just Fascinated me and he was he was not the typical Mormon either he he had he had so many uh so many cool things in his house that was the typical Mormon did not have so he he really made a big impression on me so so you were saying standards Eagle Scout uh yeah Sabbath observance Eagle Scout as Sabbath was big scriptures Seminary was mandatory um I I didn't do the the efy thing but most of my siblings did that uh I've I've kind of I I

made a big uh scene about not going to to that and that's called especially for youth now now they've for the strength of Youth yeah now they've made that program into the for the strength of Youth but I I was never into that and I think I was the silent rebellious yeah person so let me let me drill into something so what I'm hearing you say is High standards in your family high level of Orthodoxy and um and then I'm also hearing a high importance on appearance that the family appear yes super righteous and Orthodox

and faithful and then I'm also hearing that you even as a child and as a teen were a bit a bit of a dissenter you know not feeling totally good about all of this Orthodoxy and all of this Uh yeah all the source the Orthodoxy yeah what was it like in your family culture regarding the awareness that Grandpa was a Mormon Apostle and how did that affect your your family conversations and your family culture and if you have stories about that and I'm mostly talking about reputation oh yeah and expectations how did that play out

in your family oh that was huge uh appearance was everything and having to Live up to that appearance was also and I I would say I think that played a big role in my my dad's uh psyche as well because he he grew up in a very different reality than what I did I his his his uh youth was very rough he he had he had a broken family and he had a dad that he he never knew if he could he could count on and so uh his his dad came back around and was

a was a good grandpa and a good dad Later on in life but his growing up years he didn't have that and so when I was young he wanted to have that appearance of perfection especially with the the expectations of being a son-in-law of of an apostle and so I think that shaped who who he was and and the kind of person that he was so he tried so hard to have us to be Perfect that he would be really forceful to us and he would he'd be uh getting upset with us when we're we're

not perfect as as anyone can expect with seven kids you are not going to have Perfection especially when we have to drive an hour in the car to go visit them uh to visit who to visit family because we grew up in uh North Ogden which is about an hour drive away from Salt Lake City and all of our cousins all of our fam all of the extended family lived in the Salt Lake Valley and we were the only ones that that lived away and so are you saying there'd be regular family events where like

the worthless would all get together like on a Sunday yes and so your family would nine of you would get in the car drive to like the Sunday worthland family event with Grandma and Grandpa and then your parents would want you all to be super well behaved for Grandma and Grandpa exactly and and that was the setup and and yeah so that's the setup and then as we get out of the car my ma no not my mom my dad had been yelling at us and said and uh there was a good chance he he

sprinkled in some swear words at us and as soon as we get out of the car he Puts on a a showing of perfection and to be fair for him he's trying to live up to that uh to that expectation as well as he doesn't want to to throw he he doesn't want to uh he doesn't want to let people down and so that that was that was really apparent to us as kids is we were one way behind closed doors but then we were expected in front of other People to have a side of

perfection and it really bothered me from a young age and I think I really started to get extremely bothered by it in fifth grade and I I was acting out uh in fifth grade and I was just being a normal kid and I didn't realize how much the family name uh could the the leeway it could it could Have with certain people um I was I I was out at recess which is just a 20 30 minute break during class where you can go play on the playground and and do things in elementary school and

I had I had really uh broken some rules at recess and I knew I was going to be in trouble and the the teacher that caught me was a pretty Orthodox Mormon uh really devout Mormon and she knew my family really well And she totally let me off the hook because because of my granddad and I was kind of looking forward to getting into trouble because if I got into trouble I was going to have to stay home from the next family activity and I don't want to go so where did you want to go

I don't want to go because I was just kind of tired of that side of perfection the pressure yeah and just the the show And it so I was I tried to act out in school to to to get away from uh a family get-together and it totally backfired she she pulled me aside and she said at the time my grandpa was uh having a little bit of health problems and uh let's see I was that would have put me at about age 11. so he was in his late 70s at the time And he

was just having just a little bit of health issues and uh she she had heard about his health issues from my mom and she said I I and I I'll always remember this she said look I know you were doing something that you shouldn't be doing but don't worry I won't tell your mom and I I loved your granddad's talk last conference so just go back to class and I was so disappointed it was the first time that I was ever upset that my my Grandad was an apostle because it my plan had backfired because

of her love for him so and that's when I I realized like the how much people look at the the leaders of the church yeah interesting so interesting because you would think that maybe if you have you were part of a family that had privilege you would just be excited for all the ways you could get out of trouble and do Whatever you wanted or get privilege but I imagine if you have a certain personality or certain conscience you would know that there's something wrong about that privilege you know yeah harmful or disturbing well and

every everyone is wired a different way and I I don't know I I don't want to try to cast myself as a good person or as uh as one way or another but it just it Just affected me in a different way I I didn't like attention for something that I didn't do or recognition for something that I didn't deserve recognition for and so that's some that's something that always bothered me and I also was shaped by what I saw and what I experienced I I saw how my parents handled it I saw how other

family members handled it and Also I was watching how my granddad handled the pressure and the the Limelight and I was trying to handle how people would come up to me in my own way and you know there was there was no there was no handbook for how to do it and and so you just you just kind of learn to deal with it as it comes and There was there was interactions a lot of a lot of kids parents would ask me questions or ask me to ask questions to my Grandad there's some examples

uh like I had uh I had a church leader ask ask me if I could ask my my granddad uh about whether he's seen Jesus or not and like that was that was something that that was probably the most common question that I would get from people And as as a kid I just I knew that that was not appropriate to ask my granddad hmm so I never asked it but I would just tell the I would just tell people I'll ask it when you uh when you are willing to not ask me any questions

about my granddad I guess because I just I don't know I did I didn't know how to respond to a question like that I mean that's really interesting because So much of their power uh you know Mormon apostles right so much of their power is the general perception that they are special Witnesses of Christ because that's what we're told they are right and if you're a special witness of Christ you know you could Nuance that phrase but to an average Mormon it means that you've had your second anointing or the second comforter it means that

you have seen Christ and there's lots of Scriptures that talk about that's your goal in life is to actually have the second comforter or see Christ and so like you know it's it's kind of fair that Mormons are really thinking about that and asking about it all right because that's where they derive so much of their power and their prestige and so on the one hand I think it's just totally fair on the other hand I can see why it would be super annoying but I'm Fascinated by the fact that you just understood without it

ever being said that it was completely taboo to even ask him because I think that's probably the most fair question to ask him on some level and yet you know to never ask that yeah you sorry you knew you knew to never ask what probably is the most important question you could ask right and as I mean I remember as a 12 year old being asked that and I remember I remember looking at the guys just thinking I I'm not going to ask him that especially for someone that I have no no positive relationship with

yeah and and so it is a fair question and and something that I just at the time I just thought well it's crazy of course he has so so your conclusion was that he had yeah yeah I I Mean I had because that's a big deal to talk to Jesus right right if he really had talked to Jesus that would be because it means God Lives it means that Jesus is the Christ and is resurrected right and it means that this is God's one true church and that he's literally an apostle like yes ever that

that's almost everything that's everything and my my parents were so Orthodox and uh through through all the family lessons that we had that was just inferred to us Like you just knew that that's what that's what kind of witness he was and so so that was just understood in your family that grandpa had seen Jesus right and talked to Jesus right okay yeah and and that's again my brothers my sisters they may say something separate but that's what that's what my impression was yeah and that was my impression growing up that Apostles talked to Jesus

and me as well and I I so a question like that from from a leader that I barely knew and that uh his only interaction with me was yelling at us at Scout camp I wasn't going to ask my granddad for the yeah for someone like that so well it kind of objectifies you instead of you just being your own person like I get this with my kids people come up to my kids oh your dad's John blah blah blah yeah they don't like that they don't it's like they're running around Going hey I'm John's

son it's like how about you just love me for me yeah how about you not ever mention my dad to me right because I just want to be me I don't want to be my dad's yeah you know I mean you gotta you gotta separate uh the person from The Shadow yeah and I I mean there were so many experiences where you're just you're just trying to be yourself and uh that that shadow comes into play Yeah and I mean the one of the one of the most extreme examples of that was when I was

in seminary I I had a teacher and I mean to this day he and I don't I I I'll see him in the community every now and again and I don't think he he will ever like me as a person but he the very first day of class he he was calling roll and it when he came to my name he said now I'm not I'm not Judging you from who your sister is because his my sister was in his class like a year or two before and she was in the Seminary presidency and he

was the he was over at the Seminary presidency in the uh in the school and he said I'm not judging you because of your sister or because of who your granddad is but I expect more out of you and I just kind of laughed I was like expect more what do you mean and he just got really upset that I Would say that and so we started off on the wrong foot and within two or three days of class he had kicked me out of his class whoa and he uh he pulled me into his

office and said I'm going to call your mom and I I said great I said go ahead and do it and I mean he kicked the the final straw that he did like the very first part of class he would have this uh five-minute scripture study where you're Supposed to read the scriptures and what class was this again this was Seminary so he's a CES instructor yes Church employee Church employee yes okay yep and and because we're so CES instructor kicks an Apostles grandson out of Seminary that's oh yeah that's kind of bold oh and

and this story gets better so so he I I'm just sitting in the class and I will he had put me right in the front center desk of the class And my friend was sitting right next right behind me and I had a little water bottle and I was I was taking a drink of water and my friend just Taps me on my head as I'm as I have it tilted back and taking a drink and so when he Taps me on the head the drink spells all over well I've got water running down my

my chest and everybody in the class is laughing and He kicks me out of out of class for that and my friend sitting right next right behind me was like well it was me that did it and he didn't even get in trouble he I got in trouble oh and so that's the opposite of your story in elementary school oh yes you're getting in trouble because you're the apostles grandson yes yes that's different yeah it was it was really different and so he sends me out into the hall and I was like well if I'm

Going to get in if I got in trouble for doing nothing I better have fun with this better earn it so he said I'll be out in the hall in two minutes and so the hall had uh carpet walls and I I uh kind of put my arms on one end of the wall and my feet on the other and I climbed up above the door and when he came out of the the the class to come yell at me I was Hiding above the door and he looked down both both uh sides of the

hall and he couldn't see me and then I just dropped right in front of him and scared him and he his blood pressure just went through the roof and he just went he just went crazy on me and was yelling at me and and uh telling me that that is not how the grandson of an apostle should act and that he wanted to bring my mom in and have me expelled from Seminary So uh and I was I was excited about that I was like wait I I don't have to go so he called he

called uh my mom and my my mom was actually off work that day and she came in and she had a meeting with the Seminary president and that teacher and the Seminary president was just so apologetic to my mom but my mom laid into that Seminary teacher because he he crossed the line with her And I had never heard my mom yell at someone another adult and he brought up he brought up my grandad's name to my mom and said that he was disappointed in Elder Wortham because of my my behavior disappointed in Elder worthless

yeah yeah he he thought that that my behavior was a reflection on him oh my gosh and so this guy's out of line he he was very out of line my mom put him back in line And I was I was put in the class of my choosing after that and the Seminary uh president the who's now my neighbor still laughs at at that uh that interaction like this guy's boss or yeah okay yeah because he he he's a good friend of mine and he's not the teacher but no no not the teacher the teacher

to this day does not like me he probably that probably wasn't good for his career I have no idea what happened he's he's now in a different career but but needless to say he and I don't have very good feelings towards each other still so but that like to me that was that was an example of kind of how how people held these these guys up to such a high level that sometimes they They had the same expectations for their families and I mean I I remember uh being in another uh Seminary class and they

were talking about Sabbath day worship and they they talked about how this teacher was taking it so literally that he said on the Sabbath you cannot watch TV and I just kind of laughed because just I think it was the week prior was uh General Conference and it was in October and there was uh my favorite team was the 49ers Steve Young yep Steve Young and yeah uh Montana yeah before Steve Young it was like Jerry Rice Joe Montana yeah John Taylor all of those players my favorite player was Tom rathman and I I just

loved that team yeah well so they were playing and it was right after conference and it was it was perfect because it was like it was I think it might have been the cowboy the Cowboys and the 49ers it was a big game but we were all at my granddad's house after conference watching it with him so so Joseph B worthland watched NFL football on oh yes yeah football fan and so at his house and then there's all these Mormons that think it's evil to watch yes Sports on Sunday yeah and a week later a

seminary teachers telling me that I can't and I was I was laughing because I was like whatever you you can't be serious and so I just said well that's funny uh I just watched the a football game with with my granddad last week on Sunday on Sunday so so well that must have been embarrassing for him oh he that was it was that was a touchy experience because he did not like he did not like how that lesson turned out So I mean I I learned I learned that there's there's a time and place to

share those things and that probably was not the right or it was the right time yeah I mean I know a lot of people in my class like that yeah but but it's not part of the code right right it's not it's definitely not part of the code and especially uh like that wasn't uh like the Seminary teacher felt Embarrassed and and I probably shouldn't have embarrassed him like that I should have probably handled it differently but as a 16 17 year old kid I you're not going to do everything perfect so um talk about

memories that you have of time with your grandpa and grandma or Uh observations you made of your grandpa and grandma prior to let's just say your mission is there are there any stories good good or hard or bad or anything in terms of like what you witnessed or what your relationship with them was like so I my granddad and I shared the same birthday uh so June 11th was always his day that he made me feel like I was I was his only grandson so he had how many grandkids he had over 40 I think

42 so so that would be for a month he would Have had to you know oh man he yeah I mean his time and and he traveled a lot so there was there was a lot of times where I mean when I was really little he was he was in Germany uh for for an extended time I'm he was traveling to Hawaii a lot a poor guy but now there was a lot of times where where we only got a couple times a year in my early years and July was was his Time off that

that's typically when they get time at home Apostles get a month off basically in July is that right yeah okay and it may have changed that I mean everything from 2008 forward I have no idea how it's done now yeah but up until Tuesday passed away in 2008 yeah he passed away in December of 2008. so you know how it was before 2008 for the Apostle cracked and he would get July's off yes and and for those who don't know once you're called as an apostle Um you joined the Quorum of the twelve and you're

there for life you're there until you die and then it's a seniority system where you work your way up based on how long you've been an apostle yeah but you're there for life even if you're 90 95 you're still an apostle and you still have all the expectations and responsibilities yeah because that's the job you just have to outlive each other to work your way up but there's no like Your golden years of being a full-time grandpa that doesn't exist no no so uh like most of my memories of him are going up to his

cabin in Midway you got a cabin in Midway he had lots of Apostles have cabins in Midway or Hebrew and and this cabin in Midway is not uh a luxury cabin oh it was it was a piece of work we it was it was old it was pretty cheap and it had mice in it oh fun so it was It was a place that we didn't want to spend the night because it was so old but it was something it was tradition we always went like Fourth of July uh July 24th uh like all the

kids and grandkids I just beat up old cabin every yeah where would you stay oh we would just stay for like lunch okay so it was like a day trip yes okay yes just a day trip uh some of the other cousins would I mean we would all just meet up there for a Meal okay but that was kind of thing that was where he could be himself and he could he could joke it was we would talk football I mean most of my cousins uh the most of the the guy cousins would play football

that was just kind of the human culture yes family culture was football and so it was it was a football family and it was that was something that was uh talked about More than anything at those events fun so that was kind of what did did your grandpa have a favorite NFL pro team I know he would he played for the youths he played for the Youth that was his team was he offensive lineman he was a running back he so he played quarterback in high school where at East at East High okay and then

he was uh a scholarship uh athlete back in the I think it was a Late 20s early 30s but then he went on a mission to Germany and Switzerland which is where the worthless family is from and he was there as Hitler was taking over most of Europe he was on a mission in Germany in the late 30s while the early 30s while Germany was being taken over by wow the Nazis so yeah yeah so he was he was the rise of the Third Reich basically yes yeah yeah so he he spent most of his

time in Switzerland which Was very fortunate because it was it was a really rough time then but so when he came back he played he played football for Utah and he played running back and was he good yeah uh I mean I never watched him but you know so no he uh I I did I did look up a lot of his stuff from when he was uh playing and and I think I saw I saw one clip of when he played and it was pretty cool to see that oh they have like a video

clip of him running I was It was like a montage of all the football articles and oh so okay so clips and stuff yeah so it was it was pretty cool and and one there was one Utah game that we went to uh where they they had uh they had some uh some highlight or not highlights but some some people that played with him and and uh they they did uh they did a a recognition for him uh when I was on my mission they actually retired his Uh his jersey but they still use his

number okay he was number four for Utah so it was it was pretty cool to to learn about his playing days so I have to ask what did he think of BYU he he was not a fan of BYU football he was he was a Utah guy yeah he I mean he would go to he would go to BYU football games uh because that's that's uh that's where Where the the churches uh Focus was on but he was a fan of football but not a fan of BYU football so he when it was when it

was BYU Utah football you knew where his Allegiance was he was he was decked out in Utah football gear so and and like a lot of the Apostles go to the BYU football games and it's more of a social setting for for them isn't there probably some Luxury Box yes Did you ever go with them to those games uh I did once and uh it was it was it was entertaining and the fact that he was there to watch the game like he loved watching football more than anything that was his release and so he

wanted to watch the game he didn't care who was there he was there to watch football not to not to socialize and a lot of a lot of people were there to socialize and to rub shoulders with each other And that's not why he went there he was he was going to watch a football game and that was like the game is what was the attraction for him yeah so I think I remember you telling me and email some stories about other Apostles that you bumped into during some of those games yeah is that right

yeah and and like at halftime when when you get snacks or whatever They're they're there and uh they're they're kind of not paying attention to the game and so it was it was very entertaining to see like like I I love the fact that he was a football fan because I was a football fan yeah and like I I really didn't care who was there I was I was excited that I was there with my like with my grandpa and because I didn't have many EX many Experiences with just him and me you didn't no

I did not uh in your life I can I can count probably on both hands how many times it was just he and I whoa so that's I mean and that's got to be number one because he had so many grandkids but number two because they keep those dudes so busy right yeah right right I don't mean to tell you that that's just my impression no that's that's an entirely true uh my 11th birthday He he pulled me aside and we had a one-on-one moment and I that was that was pretty much the first uh

one-on-one uh time that I had with him do you remember what he said yeah uh oh well he it was on our birthday and it was at my cousin's wedding and he said he had been gone for a long time and he said I've been thinking about you a lot And I just want you to know that I really I really appreciate you and he gave me a birthday present and he said now your your grandma has a birthday present for you as well but don't tell her that I gave you one and that was

that was the first time that I had a one-on-one would he give you like he gave me an extra fifty dollars and which was more than like That was more than my siblings ever got and so I it really made me feel really special because I knew how busy he was like he had a lot going on and uh he had a chair when we'd visit him in his house that he would sit in and a lot of times when he was talking he would start falling asleep because he was he'd worked so long of

hours so so there's there was that time and then uh when I was uh Uh I think when I was uh the next time when when I was ordained to the priesthood he's 12. when I was 12 he he spent some one-on-one time with me and uh then not again till I was 18 and I was a student at Westminster College six years later yeah I mean I had interactions with him in that time frame but it wasn't just me and him yeah like I just there's the there's a perception among Many that they live

you know for those who are kind of like not comfortable with the royalty aspects of being an apostle there are many that would want to emphasize the privilege and you know the income or the fame or the glory but but I talked to you about this kind of before the show there's probably a lot of sacrifice yeah and a lot of you know the fact that he's gonna do this until he dies is going to be able to be a normal Grandpa and may not enjoy The Limelight there's probably a lot of downsides to being

an apostle especially maybe for your grandpa's particular personality do you want to talk about that a little bit yeah I mean he loved he loved family uh he was a very devout Family Guy but his position didn't allow him to spend the time with us that he wanted to uh he would have loved to make it to all of our football games but it just wasn't a reality that he Could do that uh and I mean I think he made it to two of my games and that's the first time I ever saw him with

a tear in his eye was that he he genuinely was sad that he could not be there and that was I think really devastating to him that he couldn't be with us as as family as much as he would have liked to what was your position So I've at that I played quarterback I played I played kind of every position in high school you're kind of utility player I was a utility player uh which High School Weber High School okay so so you were you viewed as like a good athlete a strong athlete I was

I would say I was a serviceable athlete like I I played I uh I didn't play Varsity quarterback I played Varsity uh wide receiver and cornerback and special Teams I mean you were probably fast you were pretty fast yeah so I was I I I got faster as I got older and I was able to keep up with people but I was I was never the fastest yeah but you're pretty athletic yeah and multi-purpose so I was I was okay okay so um my my granddad always loved talking with me about the positions I played

because he played quarterback in high school and when I was I was played I played quarterback as a sophomore and Junior in high school and he loved that and some of our some of my favorite conversations with him was about football because it just it brought a smile to his face and it it really brought him down to my level [Music] and I'm not saying that I wanted him down on my level he brought himself to my level and he he made sure that He and I had a connection so he was he was a

really good Grandad in that way like he he really wanted us to know that he cared about us um and my grandma as well she she was able to come to a lot more then my granddad so I had a lot more interactions with her because there was a lot of times when he would travel alone to things and So I had I had plenty of interactions with her and she was just she was just an amazing person I mean she played tennis till the day she died and uh it was like she was we

thought she was going to live till she was 120. just how healthy she was she was an athlete too yeah she was she played tennis and she she just went a million miles an hour and was just she was just an amazing Woman and someone that I just like she was just on such a high pedestal that you never wanted to disappoint her and I mean she and my granddad were the reasons why I didn't I wasn't in uh uh downright rebellious person is because of the relationship I had with them you loved them oh

yeah and wanted to oh yeah I did not want to disappoint them at all but like there were there were times when I definitely the rebellious side of me Definitely came out so let me ask you I I have this so there's kind of pre-conference Center General Conference where there's the Tabernacle yeah um which was smaller and really old school really Pioneer but but right beautiful and powerful and I remember attending General Conference or listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir while the conference was still held in the Tabernacle and then there's kind of Post Tabernacle

kind of Conference Center era of Mormonism with this massive Mega Mega Conference Center that seats yeah I don't know 15 000. but I know enough about I worked at Church headquarters for a year so I know enough about like the administration building and that the general authorities have their special cafeteria and that during General Conference the families of the Apostles would oftentimes come to General Conference and I imagine during The breaks all of you going to some special place and eating the special catered food and like having special access at General Conference kind of behind

the scenes as if you're royalty now that's all in my head yeah it was was there anything to that what did you ever attend General Conference pre or post-conference Center while your dad was an apostle uh because this is this is the most this is the most royalty-like aspect of Mormonism is like right twice a year the whole world is watching General Conference each of the Apostles will give a talk it's a two-day thing and like all of the Mormon world is watching and it's it's the Big Show right and I'm just wondering what it's

like to be the grandchild of an apostle during the Big Show or maybe I'm making all that up and there's nothing to it yeah so so pre-conference Center it was it was a chaotic Time on Temple Square at the Tabernacle I mean that was especially as a young like we I couldn't even as as an Apostles grandkid you couldn't go in unless you were eight okay so even when he he was speaking if if we if you weren't eight and you didn't have a ticket you could not get in okay and with a family as

big as his we weren't all allowed to go down to that special uh Uh event stuff so General Conference was still just kind of a chaotic like every every family for themselves type event uh what the session that he spoke our family got more tickets to that session but at the Tabernacle it was very limited and so there was a limited amount of tickets That the family got and so it was generally one or two siblings would go in two or a parent would go into the sessions and we'd all be out of the Tabernacle

uh waiting for waiting for uh the the session to end and so a lot of General Conference I remember walking around the Temple Square in the throngs of people just just Wondering why we were why we were there when we could have been at home on our couch so you weren't like during the breaks having pie in the special cafeteria with your Apostle grandparents no definitely not oh wow okay so we that's it for that I imagine so that once the conference center was uh opened up a few of our uncles and aunts were able

to go do that but with a family as big as ours was especially the extended family They can't have 50 50 people of and with Once once you started having cousins marry and and have their own kids then it was just way too many and so you can't invite one and not invite all so only a couple people were invited and I think it was just my aunts and uncles only okay so okay so not what I thought yeah so we were we were never Allowed backstage okay per se so so were there Perks to

Being the grandchild of a moral Apostle you got and I don't mean just general conference I just oh generally I could hear about access to rental cars or like tuition breaks at BYU which is funny in your in your case but like yeah so what are the perks of being the grandchild of a Mormon Apostle so or are there any I to be honest with you I didn't see many perks really so we had no special rental Cars uh no nothing like that no flights on corporate Jets oh no no the only time I've been

on corporate Jess is for my career oh because you're a pilot yeah because I'm a pilot but but no uh like I we we heard about him going on the Huntsman the Huntsman jet that's a thing right the husband jet is a thing he went to China with uh president Hinckley back in I think it was 1997 or something and we we heard about that and we were We were all amazed that he got to do that but no like we the the only perks that we got were tickets to events at the Tabernacle and

the and the conference center it's like if David Archuleta is singing or yeah Christina Chenoweth or whatever yeah I mean James Taylor so yeah and when I went to Westminster College uh my my grandma would give us tickets to things like that and one time my mom sent my Little brother down to go to one of those events during the Olympics with with me and instead of going to that I had gotten tickets to the medals ceremony and so we told my mom that we were going to the conference center when we went to the

medal ceremony and we saw the Google dolls in concert instead and to this day my mom still doesn't know that we ditched that so but that like really tickets to to Things to Church events was the real perk and other than that like I I don't I mean uh BYU football tickets that was one perk that you got occasionally but uh most most of my family were most of my extended family were Ute fans anyways so that wasn't that wasn't much of a perk to most of most of the extended family okay yeah because I

think I I mentioned the perception of royalty right and so you wonder what about tuition breaks do You know did you ever hear about that I never heard about that and maybe that's because I made it very clear to my parents that I was not going to go to BYU uh so if there was a perk I was not made known of what that was okay and uh it was never that was never something that was offered or publicly talked about so I I was never under the impression that there was a perk there okay

nice Interesting my sister was the only sibling that I had that went there and she was on a full ride scholarship for academics Okay so I don't know if she had any kind of perk or not but I'd be surprised if there was this is a totally random question that I'm asking on the spot but Richard worthland was a super famous pollster yes who was really instrumental in the successive Ronald Reagan and the Republican yes Administration in the 80s Yes that's your uncle right that's right yeah that's my grandpa's brother yeah yeah do you know

about him and do you know anything about his influence uh well so every every Christmas time we would have a get-together at his house and he was uh he was the wealthy uncle so that's I mean he threw great parties and that's what it was a worthless Post-christmas party where we usually watch the Holiday Bowl because that's usually what day was on he was in a football too yeah everybody was it was worthless in football was almost as synonymous with worthland and uh the church it was like yeah I don't know which one was more

important but but the lines were were blurred quite a bit so it didn't matter who was playing we watched football so that was That was just what we did together it didn't matter what was going on that would always break the ice and that's when when we would have great conversations with and it was we were a normal family when we were watching football so I think that's the escape from the the pressures of the calling and and that brought out the human factor which I think was really healthy for the family to see He's

still a grandpa and he's still just he still has his likes and dislikes and he's human yeah yeah so okay so Richard worthland super powerful wealthy guy yeah and and with the family as big as we had I really didn't get to know him that well sure and I uh uh tell my later years uh a few years ago I worked with uh a second cousin of mine and I we barely knew each other okay so yeah we didn't we didn't get to know them That well sure let's talk about your testimony in high school

did you did you always have a testimony did you ever question your testimony did you try to develop a testimony what was going on spiritually inside of you in your high school years I don't want to jump over any other stories you want to tell but like you know I definitely want to ask about that uh let's see I would say I was probably Pretty average kid like I I wouldn't say I was very spiritual I would say I was just going through the motions uh there were times uh I'd say the most spiritual moment

I had was I had I had been playing football and I had a pretty bad concussion it was uh it was a concussion that was keeping me Out for close to three weeks and uh I mean at that point we don't we didn't have the concussion protocol that we had now but I couldn't even stand being in a a room with a light on oh whoa and so I I had pled with uh everyone to like do something and my granddad offered to give me a blessing and like that was the only time that I've

ever had a priesthood blessing that's Actually felt like it's done something and for me that was that was a sign what happened I just so what were you were his headaches was it I was I had bad headaches I had I was very sensitive to light and uh like that was that was a time where I felt like he had special power because I I had I had uh I won't say miraculous healing but I had an improvement in symptoms uh the next day I was I was starting to Improve and I don't know at

the time I've marked it off as he was he was uh the reason why I I had Improvement so nice so that that's like that was the basis of my spirituality is basically that that healing that healing uh because before then I I didn't take much of it serious to say like I mean I I was always in like Deacon's corn Presidents uh teachers assist teachers corn presidencies I was never the president at least I don't remember being that if I was I didn't really take it serious I did it I was I I went

home teaching with my dad but I was never excited to go I was never I was never the gung-ho a Mormon boy yeah so but that was bolstering to your testimony to have that blessing from Your grandpa yeah yeah I did think that there was something to it okay so um that was and and I always like he would bear his testimony to us as a family from time to time and it wasn't it usually wasn't something that was a normal occasion it was a special occasion when he did that and it was usually a

very heartfelt testimony and it was always focused on Jesus Christ so you always felt like he had a special uh Testimony of that so I always just took him for his word and I I felt like he was he was genuine and that he he knew that so I believe that so that's that's that's where the basis of my testimony was I I wouldn't say I read the book of Mormon through till I was on my mission I just kind of took his word for it and I just I knew that like the decision for

me to go on a mission was made Before like I did it I didn't feel like it was a choice so really quickly you had mentioned your dad being your Bishop in your teen years yeah and we always talk about kind of like guilt and shame and and even love Chastity kind of stuff and how sometimes integral that is to the development of a Mormon of Mormon commitment the shame and the guilt but then the repentance and the bishop and is there anything you Want to share about kind of pre-mission that sort of stuff yeah

and bring bring your dad in if you want oh yeah or not so like in my dad well first of all my mom and dad like parenting wise they were afraid to talk about anything law of chastity-wise so sex related yeah go talk about sex there was no talks about that like that was that was off the table and so then for my dad when he became Bishop to want to interview me about Those things like as a kid I'm like if you don't want to tell me about that beforehand why am I going to

want to tell tell you about what I'm doing in that Arena so I avoided uh Bishop interviews with him and I I would just sneak out of church and I would go home rather than talk to him and so he never once got to uh have a real interview with me oh because when he when he would start uh when he would Get me in The Bishop's office I would just say all right Dad I gotta go because I did not want to have that uh and I didn't want him to ask you about like

porn and masturbation and that was that was that in fear were there other fears uh he didn't want to ask me about what I did with girls oh okay he didn't want to ask me about any well he wanted to he wanted to ask me about those things but he didn't want specifics And so it was so awkward that I I just got out of there because I was like we're not having this coming yeah we're that's exactly what I said and I was like I I'll have another Bishop when I'm 18. oh wow so

and and that's and then when I was 18 he was still a bishop in my Homeward and uh I I went to when I was at Westminster my Bishop at at Westminster was a pretty I wouldn't say he was a liberal guy but As far as the rules he was very liberal with the rules and he asked me why I wasn't doing more or what doing more what doing more uh as far as law of Chastity like with with girls he's like he's like go ahead experiment experiment exactly yeah he was he was a very

I don't think the church would appreciate what he was saying so it was it was actually really refreshing because he He made me feel like like you're golden oh and so he he he just wanted people in the church as a bishop and that's good yeah and he actually knew my granddad and they were friends and he he didn't realize that I was his grandson until uh I I was working at my granddad's house and he drove by and asked what I was doing there and I was like oh I'm just working out my I'm

just doing yard work for my grandparents and he's like oh this is your grandparent oh Nice so so then it was like two weeks later I was called into the elder-con presidency is that how it works yeah is there a connection between Church callings and people's knowledge of your family connection I've always wondered that well what do you think I I would like to say no but I would I would probably be in error because because like my experiences You always are are told that you're going to have a calling once people know that and

they always expect you to have higher coins once they once they find out that you're you're related to an apostle and then they're disappointed when they find out that you're oh you're just a nursery leader like Justin or should I was like yeah so that my experiences is that Like callings are definitely uh Associated to relations okay and that that would make sense um okay so did you experience guilt and shame as a teen you know stuff you didn't want to talk to your dad about or were you just not really hung up on that

sort of thing I I definitely I definitely had relationships with girls despite my dad uh because he he we need to make out or Whatever yeah I mean I mean I never I never had sex with girls uh run up but I would definitely I would definitely uh kiss girls despite my dad because he was really against it he didn't want you kissing girls right he didn't want us kissing girls he didn't like he wanted us to he wanted us to not date uh serious have have steady dated and that's I don't know maybe that's

a Utah Thing I I growing up as a Mormon kid I was my parents didn't care if I dated so that I think it feels on the extreme side effects oh yes he was on yeah definitely okay hey I mean it's a case-by-case basis on yeah because I had friends that they had no rules other friends had had soft rules like it and my dad uh he was over the top on that but so for you kissing a girl was an active Rebellion oh yeah definitely yeah okay so you did it anyway yeah okay so

it was and it was I mean there was one time he had some friends from Pennsylvania over and his his this was a a close friend of his and and Dad if you ever listen to this this will this will probably make you really mad but he his friend had two twin daughters and they they were kind of rebellious and I Was rebellious at the time so I kissed both of them in in our backyard while they were inside meeting and and it seemed like on the same day on the same day and just to

just to spite my dad that's I knew that that would upset him more than anything so that's what I did and and they were they were funny girls they they were they were really they were really uh cool and they it was actually their their uh Their idea their idea because because my dad my dad made an awkward comment to them about not kissing me and so that's how that's how socially awkward that conversation that topic was to him because I think it it had roots in his uh it his past growing up with with

his dad that that was a a concern of his for his Kids and so that was just like it was it was such a taboo subject that it was ridiculous to me and so that was a rebellious side of of mine I mean that's a theme that would be really fun to explore I remember dating Mary Holland Jeffrey Holland's daughter while I was at BYU yeah and she would she joked to me about how her dad I think she told me her dad would watch sports on Sunday and how he would like Billy Joel she

liked Billy Joel he liked Billy Joel you got the sense that she wanted to let me know and others know that like we're not the Molly Mormon family right and we don't follow all the rules but but but she never took it to make me feel like she was like a bad girl or rebellious but in my mind I've heard I've heard stories about children of Apostles that were rebellious yeah and I've always thought about that Dynamic of there being so Much pressure so much expectation that it would often push the children and grandchildren of

Apostles in the other direction of what would be expected right and and there's definitely that and everybody is unique in how they they handle that those pressures because there is the pressure of living up to that name and the the expectations like that Seminary teacher that he placed expectations on you before he even met he before he even met me and so those Expectations I was like there's no way I'm going to live up to these and uh I it's so un unreal that I'm not even going to try to live up to those or

maybe I'll even try and yeah undermine or or sabotage yeah and and some to get out from under those types of expectations right is that yeah and like some some parents of of kids that I was with like they they would automatically cast Judgment because of who my granddad was and sometimes that was a great thing and sometimes that was a bad thing like there were some some girls that like their parents wanted them to date me so much that because of who I was related to then it became so awkward that like I I

couldn't I couldn't even have a conversation with them because of things their parents said to me because I was Like I I don't want to be around that I don't want to have that expectation on me so parents wanting their kids to marry into an Apostles family yeah definitely and and then there was parents that you didn't like that no because I would that you know my from my observation man if there were a ton of parents who who were trying to get their kids to you know if they're cute girls and the parents are

trying to get the Cute girls to date me like what's not to love about that gives you more Choice yeah to a degree but then also the expectations like if you're with my daughter you better act this way and if you're not acting this way then you're a failure and then disappointment yeah so like it it was it you you lose no matter what what happens and so you don't want to be loved I guess you don't want to be loved for who Your grandpa is that's not love exactly and then you don't want to

live up to those standards or how could you ever possibly live up to those standards exactly yeah it's just like again it's the objectification of somebody right right exactly and and it's not allowing someone to be their self human yeah themselves yeah and you have to you have to allow a kid to be a kid yeah and I mean anytime you have expectations For someone that they're not going to meet you're going to be disappointed in that person and I I I was really good at bringing out that disappointment in people so I mean I

there were people that I got along great with that had expectations for me but if you showed me that you expected something that I wasn't going to do I was really good at at making a comment to let that person know that you you can't you can't force me to be like that and so I I was really uh I was really cautious with with adults uh as I was a kid if if they if they immediately went to my granddad's name and uh tried to connect with me through that It it threw up red

flags for me yeah yeah totally yeah so um I think it might be time to talk about your mission experience is there anything else you want to talk about your high school years uh prior to prior to your mission well for Faith development your group yeah you know Dynamics one of the one of the key Things so before my mission I decided to go to Westminster College football scholarship or no no okay uh it was I why not to you like that's almost seems yeah Blasphemous well so uh and I chose Westminster because of the

Dynamics of Westminster uh it was it was a non-lds school and the the ratio for LDS students to non-lds students was probably Um one one LDS student for every 10 10 students and it was it wasn't a I lived in a co-ed dorm and my dad it was exact opposite of what he would have chosen for me so it was my way to to really say I can choose my own life oh it was Independence but like if you loved your grandpa and the you was like his baby Right it would have been like also

departing from kind of yeah because family heritage and your grandpa's passion yeah but I also went to Westminster because of its Aviation program okay I knew I wanted to be a become a pilot got it and they had a I I was trying to choose a college that had an aviation program okay but that it also checked the boxes of not fitting into the LDS mold for my dad okay because at that point my dad was my Bishop and he was super controlling spiritually like he wanted us to appear as a perfect LDS Family and

so I I chose that school specifically for those reasons and I mean it was a financial uh it's expensive burden for me to go there because I I it's a president I was only on a partial scholarship and it was expensive for me uh and at least 20 grand a year right well at the time it Was six thousand dollars a semester so that's 12 Grand a year tuition yeah okay and I and then on top of that I had flight school as well yeah which was I had no idea what I was getting into

with that and so I left that year and I was in a financial mess so it wasn't like your parents were rich and they could pay for it all oh no no I I was I was taking out loans and I was paying for oh I just paid for it all myself so this idea that like grandchildren of Apostles Are all wealthy no I would have loved that to be true uh my my granddad uh he was never a wealthy guy so yeah he was a like talk about himself he was he was a butcher

uh he he owned a a meat packing shop and it was called worthless Meats and here where was it it was just here in Salt Lake I think I don't know the exact address of it but he he didn't live far from his shop and my my mom worked in the butcher shop when she was little all of her siblings Did uh uh I I know when my mom and dad got married my dad delivered meat for the for the company and it was just a family-run business and like the they they sold it but

I don't think they ever really made uh a lot of money with the sell of the company because like we we never had the toys like the extended family didn't have a Lot of toys expensive cars any of that it was every generally most of my aunts and uncles were pretty uh paycheck to paycheck people there's a couple that did well financially but most of them were were I'd say average middle class families yeah and so like me going to college I knew that I was going to pay for it myself And I I chose

a very expensive college despite my my dad because of him being my bishop and kind of the the pressure that he was putting on me to to be that spiritual person that at the time I just wasn't that person and so living in a co-ed dorm and and going to a school like that and I signed up for Bible Bible uh study and I'll always remember that uh Methodist Uh preacher that that taught the Bible class she she was amazing yeah and and that's another thing like what I told my dad about that he he

couldn't have been more shocked that that's what I was doing um I I did have taking a Bible class from a woman Methodist preacher right and they had an Institute program at Westminster but I was so busy I I hardly went to to that Um but the the Bible class that had a huge effect on me because we we studied the Bible and she was she did not interpret the Bible literally and that really uh stuck with me because it was it was a very like these are stories to learn from not to take as

as factual it's historical yeah and that was I I had never I had never thought about Bible Stories like that and so she made me think outside of the box as far as Mormons go did that make you question your testimony and this is pre-mission it was pre-mission yeah and it like there was a lot of things that I was just coasting along as a as a young Mormon like I I I never looked at a lot of things so she she I think she knew what she was doing with uh exposing me to things

And she did a great job she made me think and so I still was going to go on a mission but when I went on my mission and I started learning more about the church everything that she had taught me was coming into my mind uh because that was the first that was the first time that I really paid attention in a in a religious class was in her Bible study because she made it so exciting So so list maybe I I had a similar experience not because of who my teacher was but because I

read the New Testament and I noticed some problems in high school I'm curious like three to five of the problems you would have learned about that would have challenged your Mormon Orthodoxy or you know can you remember yeah well so I can give you examples but if you you know well uh I mean she talked about uh Jonah and the well And she also talked about uh Moses what about them what about flood well she so Joan on the well she she said now how many people think this is an actual story and I like

I was I was so shocked by the question that I was like I better not raise my hand so I mean like and nobody raised their hand and I was I was in disbelief I was like oh I was like I got I gotta see what's see where this Is going so and then she did she answer the question and say from her perspective what yeah she said this is this is just a myth with a lesson and I had never thought about that I had it's and I had always just been taught that Jonah

and the well was a real life story so I mean things like that you're gonna give another example oh yeah uh so Moses and Abraham and uh Jacob yeah all of that what about it uh she just she said are these real people and I I had never thought about any of that did she give evidence as to why yeah they might not be real people right yeah did she she did what was her evidence do you remember even I can't what her evidence was like I I can't even remember it was it was such

a foreign concept to me That I I don't really remember the specifics yeah I do remember her talking about David and and uh David and Goliath David and Goliath and then how David uh had how he sent off later when he was the King how he sent off the oh I can't remember the the husband of but yeah uh you're right Uriah like yeah Sheba right right right he sent him off to war right he was killed because he wanted he Wanted Toshiba right yeah and I mean it may not be your way and she

she brought up that and she brought a polygamy hmm and she I know she did that lesson specifically for me because I was the only Les person in the class and that got me thinking more than anything else because she she said now when is it okay to send someone off so you can marry someone else's wife send someone off to their death yeah and she said send Someone off to their death or on a mission oh and at that point I had no idea what she was talking about but there's some Joseph Smith references

there right yeah and and so she prepared me for a lot and so like I don't remember her name I don't remember but I'll never forget her face I'll never forget how kind she was to me and how she treated me and how she prepared me To to learn all these things when you say kind to you what do you oh she she would talk to me after class because you'd ask questions oh yeah I would I I appreciated how much she took an interest in me as a person uh she she was very genuine

and she was interested in what I was going into and wanted she wanted me to succeed in life and so she was a great teacher and and so just a genuine person do you ever since she knew who your grandpa was Kind of thing or I I would be surprised if she had any clue so she just cared about you yeah that must have been refreshing oh it was it was so great because my my experience in the with the church was that as soon as people found out that I was a grandson of an

apostle I was treated differently and so I really longed just to be a person she treated you that way and she treated me that way and so I I naturally gravitated towards that And so like fast forward so I had that experience in college um I had a great year of college it was it was so it was such a good uh experience for me as an individual and it really made like I was really dreading going on the mission because I was enjoying Aviation uh going into that as a as a career and I

also loved the friends that I had made at Westminster And so but I was looking forward to going on a mission and not having people know that I was a grandson of an apostle because it was a chance for me to control how much people knew about me because I would be on my own I wouldn't have any family saying anything I wouldn't I wouldn't have anyone that I knew there with me so I was I was hopeful that not a single person would know and I could Just be a normal member of the church

yeah so I'm wondering how that goes yeah so I show up uh where'd you get called I I went to the England Manchester Mission okay and I was excited because I wasn't going to go to the Provo MTC I went straight to the press in England MTC what year this was 2002 to 2004. okay and uh my mission was just full of stories did you did your granddad set You apart as a missionary or he did yeah was that special I mean I was I mean we so the night before I went to the MTC

I we drove down and I went to went to the church office building and he set me off he set me apart as a missionary in his office hmm so that's fancy yeah Church Headquarters that's and I I I don't know I did I did not feel like I was ready to be a missionary um but who was I have to ask you two things quickly not to derail your story did you ever meet any prophets prior to going on your mission and if so oh yeah so I mean we met all of them oh

all of them yeah I mean uh so president Hinckley and my my granddad are cousins and through what Bitner so Bitner so Gordon Bittner Hinckley and Joseph Bitner worthland okay and so the Bitner reunions we would always get together and there was always that uh that interaction where you had president Hinckley and my granddad at the same place at the same family reunion and and then like at various uh so it's no accident that they're related in terms of possibly his your granddad's selection as an apostle he's a he's a cousin of of Gordon yeah

so my Grandad was called to be an apostle when Spencer Uh W Kimball died and I have no idea what went into that but yeah there's there's a lot of family connections throughout all of the church so I I I know that I don't know I don't know how how interconnected that relationship is but it's definitely there you can't I can't dismiss it was your grandpod Apostle Before Russell M Nelson was an apostle no he was after okay and you're also another connection not only was your grandpa cousins with Courtney Hinckley but your grandpa also

served in a bishopric with Russell Nelson is that right that is correct yeah when when would that have been oh probably the late 50s okay early 60s some I I don't know the exact dates but my my Mom was a a child on that one when they were in the same bishopric okay so your dad would have known at least Hinckley and Nelson personally very close and that's I mean Salt Lake was a lot smaller back then too so I know I know they they knew quite a few of those uh of of the Apostles

do you remember having any interactions or with or impressions of the prophets you met growing up Uh yeah I mean I've president Hinckley was always uh trying to make people laugh and smile uh they're there were the the nice quiet Apostles like Elder Hells uh Robert Hills yeah he was he was just such a genuinely nice person and I was always I was always interested in him because he was a pilot and I knew that's what I wanted to be so I was I I talked to him a few times and he was always really

Nice to me so he was he was one of my favorite uh Apostles just because he was so generally nice um my granddad always made present months and laugh uh present Monson always would tell us how my granddad would sign his name as Jorge and because I don't know where that joke came from but he would always uh my granddad always joked that he was as Gringo as it it as it could get because he had so much German in him because he spoke German and he served his mission in Germany and when he would

get assigned to to say Spanish names he would always struggle with it and so he would sign his name as h-o-r h-a-y which is not how Jorge is spelled right but that's but that's that's that Was the joke that he had with uh president Monson that he was just not a good Spanish speaker okay and Monson thought that was super funny yeah okay yeah so at at my granddad's funeral uh present Monson told me and a couple of my cousins that story so he said he he just and present monson's pretty big guy and he

took us he had us around our he put his arm around our shoulders and pulled us in and was telling us that And he he just I mean he was crying telling us about it because really yeah the about the Jorge thing yeah because he was just he he really liked my granddad oh and I I had no idea that they had I mean that showed me the different levels of relationships that they each had because there was other Apostles that they really didn't have that uh warm affectionate feelings for my Granddad do you want

to say who those would be or would you rather not say I'm not trying to get you too I'll save um there there were two that that didn't uh leave us with too good of feelings and one was other Packer present packer uh he just and and I had I had a experience with my grant when I was at Westminster with with my granddad where I kind of saw a little bit of that relationship And that was that kind of made sense at the funeral why why I felt that way as well and oh when

I was when I was at Westminster I I did a lot of yard work for my my grandparents that year and that was that was that was the time that I really made up for not having a lot of one-on-one times with with them I was I was able to spend spend at least once a week with Them and one night my my Grandma had me come in and have dinner with them and my my granddad did not know that I was in the house and he started to tell my grandma about uh and a

meeting that the the Quorum of The Twelve had and my granddad and uh present packer had a disagreement on how A policy should be laid out and my my granddad said we need to look at the Savior and we need to treat people in that way and and he he started to go into it and then he walked in the room that I was in and he immediately stopped and I was like and then just started talking to me but it was It was the type of conversation that a spouse has with their spouse when

they're frustrated with a colleague and they're really upset that a colleague would would treat people that way do you remember what policy and do you remember he did it if if your grandpa was focusing on the Savior do you remember what Packer would have been focusing on he didn't get into the specifics because he saw me and I I always wondered what It was because that it was such a it was such an interesting conversation that I could tell it was super confidential because he asked me how long I had been in the room so

and I I said I've been in the whole conversation he said well you can uh you can chalk that up too I probably said too much there's so much there there's the fact That he's number one confiding in your grandma Yeah that's you know that's powerful right number two that he's acknowledging severe significant disagreements with another Apostle like we know that they're human right but but it's evidence of that you're right that that your dad your granddad was on the side of the Savior which makes me wonder what what side Packer was on yeah and

I have no idea yeah of course right but then Also that you don't you know that he didn't want you did he he didn't feel comfortable actually confiding in people other than his wife right about any of the details of anything and he didn't want there to be any knowledge of dissension within the ranks of the Quorum of The Twelve because as I understand it the appearance of unanimity of all of the first presidency of the Quorum of The Twelve being in unanimity Which they aren't right but they also deeply value the appearance that they

are and this goes back to the theme of of there being a heavy emphasis on appearance even in your family growing up and there being a difference like what you said with your family going to the grandpa dinners Grandma and Grandpa dinners they're being the difference between what was projected as the appearance and what was actually True all that I'm reading all that into that little interaction but it's all it's spot on it's it's definitely part of uh the whole package yes like you and I mean my my Grandma and Granddad had the best relationship

they they adored each other and were very loyal to each other and so it it does not it doesn't surprise me at all that he would confide in her because if if there was a relationship that I could emulate it was theirs because he treated Her like it like a woman should be treated she she had complete Independence and complete uh she she was valued as a person 100 percent and he looked at her as his equal and as someone that was was just extremely brilliant smart uh wonderful person and so it does not surprise

me that he would go to her for advice or a sounding Board they they had the ultimate relationship and I that was the relationship that I wanted to emulate so yeah wow and and because in with modern sensibilities there's this idea that Mormonism is this really strict patriarchy yeah that women are undervalued and what I'm hearing you say is that in the in the example of your Grandparents there was a very strong feeling of equality definitely yeah 100 mutual respect and and that's why I could never understand because I did see that patriarchal uh order

in other relationships especially in my mom and dad's relationship and in other aunts and uncles and I always felt like my granddad was speaking to my aunts and uncles in conference talks trying to tell them Snap out of it you you need to you need to be more christ-like to each other and not you don't need to have this patriarchal order yeah I mean there is one Conference Center all my brothers and sisters were nudging each other like he's talking to Dad he's he's he's trying to get he's trying to get everyone to change and

it was like to your dad yeah we basically that your dad wasn't modeling the type of right Equality gender equality inner in companionship in a relationship that that your mom's dad and mom modeled is that what you're saying exactly 100 and that your grandpa was what giving a general conference talk is a way to tell your father to treat your mom better his daughter is that that's what we all thought and and it wasn't only my dad some of my uncles uh were were like that with with my mom's sisters and so we thought that

That was a talk specifically for his son-in-laws because I mean he he told a couple stories and we're like this is exactly what Dad needs to hear this is what this is what this well because he would care about the treatment of his daughters exactly I mean as a as now that I have my own two daughters if if I had son-in-laws treating their daughters like that I would be furious And what better platform than than General Conference to to share a lesson for your son-in-laws so you're saying some of your your dad and or

some of your uncles weren't as respectful to their wives were president Elder worthless daughters as as they should have been that they mistreated them in ways not to break on them or call them out but correct and that's that's the perception that I had and some of my siblings had uh definitely for my own Dad that's the perception that we had for some of my uncles now I don't know I I did not live with those uncles so I don't know exactly I only saw small Snippets of of how they were but talking with some

of my cousins that's the that's the perception we had and that's and that's probably something that will not sit well with my uncles if they ever hear this sure but that was that was what we experienced And that's what we thought it's weird that they didn't pick up the love and the equality and emulate that that somehow one generation away from a really loving and yet respected and authoritative relationship they somehow pick up more patriarchy and more inequality and mistreatment why why weren't they emulating your grandparents I that's a great question I all right because

I mean I've I have siblings that emulated My other grandparents instead uh and I I scratch my head at some of the things that that people latch onto and I don't know I mean my my dad didn't really have a good home environment growing up and so I can see how he was he was doing the best with what he had and I I don't want him to think that I Think he's a terrible person or anything like that nope but but I I do I do think that uh their there were things that he

latched on to that that were were part of the system and the system kind of creates that kind of mentality um and you have to go against the grain to overcome that and my my granddad did go against the crane And there was there were there's been plenty of interactions I've had with people where they'll come up to me and they they've told me especially the football community because he's a big football fan and there's been quite a few football people that have come up to him and and have asked him should I go on

a mission and he's like why he's like you you have a great platform as a Football player to share the gospel if you want use that as as your mission and that goes against the grain yeah because because I know Rucker wouldn't say that exactly yeah and I know he's been I know he was reprimanded for saying that to some people because Packer would have been senior to him is that right yes okay yes but he gave uh he gave a few people and and one Turned out to be an NFL player advice to not

go on a mission and and this player did listen to him and oh uh a seminary teacher that uh oh what's his name it was a baseball player of uh that you interviewed uh he's been on a couple times uh oh yeah Mark Mark yeah Mark osland I wish he would have I wish he would have met my granddad oh because I know what my granddad would have uh gave what advice he would have given him and and and Mark if you if I Ever get to meet you I would just say thank you for

for your story but but that like I really wish he would have met my Grandad because I know my granddad would have told him that that he his mission is to to develop as an athlete too wow because it wasn't just athletes that he gave that advice to as well he he gave he gave that advice to anybody that he felt a mission wasn't for in their best interest And I mean I I had a friend that uh from North Ogden that was given that advice from him um at my at my farewell and so

it was it was it was he was more concerned about the individual than the church that's huge and that would be very different than my impression of Packer as an example and likewise and that's why I think there was a lot of attention tension between the two you Were going to mention the second apostle that maybe yeah and you you mentioned this idea of clicks to me that within the apostles yeah the first president of Quorum of The Twelve there are clicks so talk about the second apostle that you were going to mention if you

want and this idea of clicks like what your perception was of of how these clicks were organized and how they operated so the second apostle that he he he's still a current Apostle okay Um and I think most people can guess who he would be okay uh he was pretty brand new when my Grandad was uh was passing away uh so that should narrow it down quite a bit I don't think I want to name his name okay that's fine because because he's still current and I I don't want if his family's listening or whatever

I don't want to feel like them to feel like it it's a personal thing uh I have I have no malice towards the Guy I just I just think that there was there was tension between the two and at the funeral uh there was no emotion for him and it was it was kind of uh annoying for us as family members that he was given uh special time at the viewing and uh a place when uh like we all adored my granddad and just Thought so highly of him and to have someone that you could

tell didn't have that same level of respect for him it was that was that was uh as and I was a Believer at the time and that was a a major crack for me in my testimony that this guy is put before our family at the funeral When you say put before what do you mean I the his viewing uh he was the the apostles were given a specific time that they had to be at the viewing and it was okay for them to be before or after and they could walk in and we all

had to step aside for them just to let them be at the casket with your grandpa or what or to have meetings or to have their to have their special time for Viewing and so our our family viewing was a lot uh it was not a normal viewing for for a grandparent I mean I've had a I've had other all my grandparents have passed and at all the other uh funerals the family is the focus but at a at an apostles funeral The Quorum of the twelve and the Apostle and the first presidency are the

focus more so than the family and so we had there's quite a few of our of our cousins that are not active and uh it's it was pretty upsetting to see that the family wasn't the focus when the church preaches family so this guy who you think probably didn't get along well with your grandpa Maybe They didn't even like each other this Apostle is like being given special time at the viewing to be with your grandpa I don't even know if you're saying in a performative way sort of like to be seen to be seen

yeah when when that was cutting into your time as kids and grandkids with with your grandpa is that what you're saying yeah I mean we had we had cousins from all over the country coming in and we just weren't I mean with over 40 grandkids and then spouses and and then great grandkids there's not a lot of time and there's a lot of people in a small environment and it's it's really hard to have the closure time that you you would like to have and for someone that we can we can tell there's not the

feeling of respect that we have It's really frustrating so I'm sorry so that was that was a crack in your testimony oh major really major I would have never guessed that would be a crack in someone's testimony uh for me it was this is this is a church about families and if if we're worried about eternal families we haven't we have a big extended family here there's a lot of a lot of people that Are struggling with their testimonies in this family and you're still putting the Quorum of the 12 before this family like to

me that was a big that was a big uh moment for me well thanks for sharing oh sorry that happened yeah it's uh I was that was a very frustrating experience because uh we we shared our Granddad with the world And it was it was hard to never get personal closure with him so you didn't you don't feel like you got that uh not not really I mean it was it was there just wasn't uh like the the personal moments I had with him were not in his final years so yeah because he was too

busy or well I mean he he started having health issues He started getting dementia and then they started being really uh they started to guard his interactions uh Kentucky to be a special witness of Christ and have dementia exactly and then what would people say like with Monson right exactly and desert top Benson yeah they don't they don't want uh a public figure to have a to have private moments in public and And when do you have dementia your guard is down and you you say things that shouldn't be said and they didn't want that

so it was it like the the times he spoke in general conference the family was really nervous and I mean my mom was really stressed out every time he was giving a talk last couple years afraid of what he might say yeah afraid that he might go off script So but I mean some of his best talks were when he was had dementia because he he would speak from the heart and he every every General Conference he he wanted to share what he thought he thought it would be his last conference as soon as my

grandma died in 2006 he he wanted to die as well he he thought that she would outlive him and he it crushed him and so he was given his last conference talk every conference once she died And he really loved her oh like if if there's true love that's what he had for her so that's inspiring so he he he was a genuinely good guy as far as like my interactions with him and what I saw yeah yeah I think he gave the talk about the church or the gospel being like an orchestra and everybody

has their role there's you know there's the piccolo and there's the flute and there's the drums and the was that was that worth one I Don't know that that one doesn't strike a chord with me so I can't say yes or no because that one I would have to I would have to uh have someone else answer that question because for me and I'm Googling it right now um that that talk uh and I'm sure our listeners and viewers are going to be looking this up But if if that was him and if that was

uh you know if that was the talk that he gave it's viewed as one of the most inclusive talks ever to basically say we don't need divisions we don't need you know Orthodoxy separating people we need everybody feeling like they have a role to play yeah well I will never forget the the talk he gave at my farewell so and this is this is how How my farewell went I you know how most mission farewells go oh dude dude I just Googled it the talk is concerned for the one and it was given in April

of 2008. so I think it might have been his last one of his last talks it was his second to last okay yes so and I remember that I remember because there's the word the piccolo for some reason I remember The the use of the term Piccolo in it and so I'm going to keep Googling it but keep tell your story so that that matches his his beliefs 100 but so my my farewell you know how most uh pre like 1990s 80s 90s early 2000s the missionary gave a talk and it was like it was

the missionaries meeting well so I knew everybody was there to to see my granddad talk so I gave like a two-minute talk And then just turn the time over to my my granddad and my granddad was not like after the meeting he said I really wanted to hear you talk I I'm here for you not for me and but he talked he didn't prepare a talk because he he didn't think he would have have much time so he was just going to bear his testimony but when I when I ended so quickly he talked about

love And he just opened up to First John and just started talking about what love is and how it doesn't matter Who You Are Jesus loves you and he he talked about how like the the gospel is nothing but love and it doesn't matter where you are who you are Christ loves you And that was his message to that audience and he he told me he said the one thing I want you to go out on your mission is just to listen and love people and like that was his advice to me and that was

his advice to everybody in that room and that's that's the kind of gospel that he taught and it it was always interesting to me To see see people interpret things in harsh ways because that was not the gospel that I I wanted to hear or I I believed in yeah and and I I'm glad I I remember this so in this talk concern for the One Elder Joseph B worthland you know I'm just going to read a little bit of passages so it said this is bolded in the actual talk true Disciples of Jesus Christ

have always been Concerned for the one Jesus Christ was our greatest example um it goes on to say some are lost because oh today I would like to talk about those who are lost some because they are different some because they're weary some because they have strayed some are lost because they're different they feel as though they don't belong perhaps because they're different they find themselves slipping away from the Flock they may look act think and speak differently than those around them and that sometimes and that sometimes causes them to assume they don't fit in

they conclude that they are not needed tied to this misconception is the erroneous belief that all members of the church should look talk and be alike now I'm thinking about Packer and Bednar on the one hand who like are about ultra-orthodoxy we all need you know the Unwritten of order of things just this really harshness right yep and I'm putting worthland on the other side of that because he's basically arguing for diversity not uniformity and so I'll continue the Lord did not um the Lord did not people the Earth with a vibrant Orchestra of personalities

only to Value the piccolos of the world so I remembered piccolo that's how I found the stock yep uh to Only value the piccolos of the world every instrument is pressure every instrument right right and I'm thinking gay people I'm thinking like ever you know he didn't he didn't label people yeah yeah every uh every instrument is precious and adds to the complex beauty of the symphony all of heavenly father's children are different in some degree yet each has his own beautiful sound that adds to the depth and richness to the whole And this isn't

about like follow the prophet obey the Brethren you know conform to to the expectations this is like I don't care who you are you're loved and you're needed as you are right this this is and this is the year he died right yes that this is what was important to him and this is what he preached to us as a family so if you were at a family gathering with us and he heard someone uh making fun of Someone that's the only time he would be upset with us is if we were if we were

making fun of someone unkind yeah so it wasn't like if you were disobedient it was if you were unkind right he did not care our status in the church he did not care what calling people had he didn't care whether you were active or not he cared how you treated people and that was the most important thing And the only time I saw him upset was when we were making fun of a cousin and he he was genuinely upset when we would when we would hurt people's feelings um what a tender guy oh and a

football player you know what I mean yeah like yes like he he was a man's man um he he cared about the the people that could not Uh stack up for themselves defend themselves he wanted to help them and I I mean he was a he was a football player he loved to hit when he played football but he also told me that after you hit someone and and this is he's like you make sure when you're carrying the ball you run through people and you put you you protect that football nothing ever Nothing ever

rips up football out of your hands but after you run someone over you you help them up you make sure that they know that you're a gentleman but the gentleman can hit so like I mean that that talk was that's who he is and and he's not putting on a show yeah so yeah like that and and that's why like at post Faith struggle I My my faith Journey took so long because of how good he was to me so yeah I mean I I put so much so much in the bank because of him

because of the good of him that it took me so long to deconstruct everything I think that's a great place to end part one um because it's just so powerful what we've just talked about Is I feel like it's like someone someone with a bad impression of mere Mormon stories would think oh Mormon stories we're just gonna like tear down the Brethren and like I feel like what a beautiful tribute to your your grandpa and to how the teachings of Jesus Christ and and he operated in the world oh yeah I mean he he took

his calling very seriously to represent Jesus and I he truly tried to emulate The Life of Christ and how he treated people and so that guy I really believe that was the number one priority for him was to was to be a witness of Christ more so than of the restoration hmm so because I I heard him talk about Christ way more than I heard him talk about the restoration Joseph Smith through the Book of Mormon yeah right right he was a Christian first in a Mormon Second I uh words in your mouth that was

that that was the the perception was always to follow Christ it wasn't anything else well the Brethren right it was I was always looked to Christ whoa so so cool like yeah like I love hearing these stories this is so powerful yeah all right well uh I don't like these episodes to go three and four hours because then people won't listen to them Because it's like it's way too long so unless there's any way you want to end this episode um I think it'd be I think this is a natural place to kind of end

part one and then we'll pick up in part two kind of with your mission okay and your faith journey and then we'll we'll keep talking about your your grandparents along the way is there anything you want to say to close out part one or do you feel like we I think I've talked enough Okay and I need to go to the bathroom so okay so so all right so so Greg um Garretson thank you so much for sharing so much about your grandparents and your life for this part one of Mormon stories podcast has been

great thank you yeah and don't go away uh whether you're on the live stream join us later or you're watching part one part one come right back for part two we're going to be talking about Greg's Mission how In less than positive ways he was treated on his mission because he was the grandson of an apostle and then what led to him after his mission uh what that life was like we'll talk about the story of Elder iring uh you know and and wanting you to potentially who he wanted you to date maybe or go

out with on a date we'll talk about his adult years as the grandson of an apostle and then we'll talk about your Faith Journey and kind of what led you to to kind of where you are now all right all right all right thanks so much and uh join us now for part two come right back and we'll see you all again soon another episode of Mormon stories podcast take care