Why you NEVER learned a second language in School - How to actually become FLUENT

I want to say it's it's a little bit of a click baity kind of title it's like learn any language in 6 months now if you only if that's all you're doing for 6 months I I okay you know some languages are going to take some folks more time because of the language background you have and how similar and these sorts of things but I think he has a lot of good ideas in there and one is massive uh quantities of exposure to Language in meaningful context so input Diane how's it going good how are

you I'm doing well I'm doing well today we are going to solve the language problem if that's even possible well you know what is is is funny it is not simple by no means however there are definitely as we talked about before this some things that can help and some things that probably we've been doing that probably aren't helping just like any Endeavor And that's all I'm seeking to do with these conversations so as there are some principles it's not yeah easy to solve but there are some things that we know do help and do

hinder so yes okay perfect right and so why don't you tell everybody who you are and and uh why you have such a love of language sure um I have had a a number of different phases in my life at this point I most recently have been a university professor in Multilingual education so I'm helping to train teachers to work with kids whose language first language might not be English so they're um being able to help adapt the way that they conduct instruction so those kids really succeed and get both the content learning and the

language learning at the same time in a regular classroom in the US which is very challenging can you give us a good background of within modern language learning and teaching What's wrong why why how come nobody I speak to who's taken a language class for four to 6 years has any grasp of the language if they've come through General schooling sense and this is worldwide yeah yeah it's it's a very sad problem and occasionally folks like start there and then they succeed because they ended up doing something else they live in a place where the

language was spoken they they got hooked on a TV series and they just binge Watched that TV series and suddenly they're able to speak and like but then they don't go back and critique what happened in the school and so teachers keep reproducing this and maybe because of what you just said about Stakes being lower in like people are not usually dying because of language instruction not going well thankfully that's not the stakes that we're we're we're dealing with but in terms of functional communication ability where're we're we Have a great potential and it's not

being achieved in schools very well and I think there's a few reasons for that um I think there are some social factors just societally how how much do we prioritize this as societies but you're in Europe and I think they prioritize language much more but sometimes are not achieving through school um the kind of results that the time on task should show I think here in the us a lot of the traditional approach to Language learning has been very focused on looking academic so that it feels more um it's like it has more Prestige I

think in education language has been kind of shunted off to the side it's not looked on as as rigorous an academic Endeavor as like science or math or even writing in English classes um because some World language classes I think took took an approach that was very um I'll use the term behaviorism so BF Skinner Kind of thing like do something repeat it make it into a habit and so you can kind of drill in just a few little bits of information in your head that way for a short time at least most people um

some of them can retain it longer um but but most people will just be able to then tell you 20 years later like Ola K and yeah that kind of experience so like that sort of approach was used a lot and it still happens a lot so if you were used to having your teacher have you Repeat after them if you were memorizing dialogues or at least reading them off the page and then your teacher treated that like well now you can go have a conversation with someone on that topic it's like you you were

getting like um kind of little chunks that don't go anywhere and don't develop a system in your mind and so you had bits but they didn't all get pieced together and so your brain more easily loses those bits over time um the other problem I think Is that we do a lot of language analysis and Linguistics in a language class rather than doing language development language acquisition in a language class and some of this is just I think historically people wanted to do different things with language in in 200 years ago it wasn't as common

for people to go around the world or have opportunity to speak and to listen to people from all over you read and so if you were going to take an approach that Was good at helping you read and analyze grammar and really parse what does this really mean slowly and carefully you get grammar translation approach and that's helpful if what your goal is is just that but but again if your goal is like unrehearsed spontaneous ability to understand to interpret messages to express messages and to go back and forth between them so I'm going to

refer like indirectly there to buildin patents definition of Communication like that if that's the goal then we need to do things that produce that we need to actually do that in the classroom in a in a way that's going to really be sheltered and friendly to the students age and their prior proficiency level and all those sorts of things but um that's yeah how's how's that that is yes yes I mean you've done a great job of summoning it up because like we said it is massively complex and much like you said in having Some

discussions I understand what with the Americans Australians in the UK with the predominance of English in the world there's less motivation to do so and then you could just kind of like close the book oh okay Americans don't learn languages because they speak English and everybody speaks English so they don't care but then you like you said you I'm in I'm in Europe and over here in the Balkans right now in Croatia and yes people do hear they Speak Croatian and majority do speak English but that's not what they studied in school they spent four

to six years studying a lot of them German many French and once you come to that same they they're doing what you just said and that's what's happening in the course in their courses and been going on for some time now and so I would I would even go now to ask you an an interesting question I'm not sure if you've actually I'm sure you actually Have some some data and experience with this the school system is one thing and I want to shift just for a second to talk about about selfstudy which is how

like you said a lot of these people they may have started in school I could even say to some small degree I started Spanish in school but I was really I had a high Proficiency in Spanish and I took it for the easy a I Would by no means say that school taught me Spanish how would you like to see people go about Selfstudy in learning a language yeah it's uh one of the people that I think sum sum it up pretty well I think is Chris Lonsdale I think he's from New Zealand it's like

a I I want to say it's it's a little bit of a click baity kind of title it's like learn any language in six months now if you only if that's all you're doing for six months I I okay you know some languages are going to take some folks more time because of the language Background you have and how similar and these sorts of things but I think he has a lot of good ideas in there and one is massive uh quantities of exposure to language in meaningful contexts so input um the but but you

notice the way I that so sometimes I see people talk about comprehensible input as if it means um kind of what I described at the beginning where it was you know I've got this one conversation in a textbook and I'm going to just reread it and reread It and reread it like that's only giving you these little bricks it's not building a whole system so you need varied contexts of exposure to the same words and that sheltered kind of thing so you're not getting a barrage of all all the language but you're getting kind of

a a carefully crafted curated version for you and to get that parents do it really well with their infants and some teachers do it some tutors do it some friends would do that So it's his idea is like it's a language parent that you want to be able to um somebody that's sympathetic to you cares about you willing to listen to you with just very very limited language skills and willing to talk to you in a way until you can understand them so that you're getting comprehensible input from that um so that is huge and

that's like 85 to 95% of the the issue I think um at least so yeah and then in terms of like Developing your own ability to express this might take a little honing here and there I think but but basically it's getting lots and lots of opportunity to to hear a language you can understand and naturally to develop your ability to speak and respond in context and uh and what's amazing now is that the world we live in finding materials for those major languages is virtually simple a lot of them yeah if You know how

to look yeah if you know how to look and that is a second issue that does have to continue to be addressed but the first issue like you said is if we take two students and we have one study the rules for language and we have another one essentially getting good input that they can understand uh in a relaxed State and then not feeling forced to do it and then we help them we ease them into certain subjects we keep them in one Subject for a few days and then we move on out of that

and leave that for a little bit and go over here and kind of shelter their their way understanding this system the two people after honestly a month and I've seen it actually because we do have a couple guys in our in our company that have moved over here and you know one guy not knowing what to do kind of just they we fall back on the traditional method because we don't know anything else Exactly teachers do that too okay what you make sense yeah yeah yeah it's hard to get it without the experience of somebody

guiding you through it because that you're your muscle memory is all about that whatever you grew up experiencing so yeah and so yeah the two the two the two are they're light years apart they're light years apart and it's it's amazing what you can do in very little short period of time obviously because the world we live in I know uh Everything is learn this language in 3 days and 7 days and whatever uh in 30 days but it's actually quite crazy what you can do to your brain if you set it up especially within

input you'll have a level of because it's so hard you have this anxious thing if you study the rules you're just trying to you're trying to you're trying to work on accuracy you're you're not doing it you're just not doing it and so yeah know can I can I throw a little bit of a Third third angle cuz there are there are people who say you're right yeah this grammar study stuff memorization of grammar rules trying to apply grammar rules you're right that's that doesn't do it but input's just a model and what you really

need to do is start hurry up and practice speaking and this one I don't know I you might think a little differently than I do on this and that's okay with me but the I see it the the hard push to early Output is still a mistake if students are wanting to say things I think helping them understand the process of the whole picture of language acquisition is going to be more helpful not to shut them down absolutely not but if what they're thinking is I got to say it I got to say it I

have to make myself talk more or I'm not going to get it like just relax a little bit and and trust a process that's going to maybe look a little uh look a little rough at First when you're first starting to speak I don't think that early speaking is a harm if you're letting it just kind of fall out of your mouth but if you're trying to really H now there's an exception and that is if you are about to travel somewhere or you know I've got to operate at a level beyond my real proficiency

because I need to be able to ask where's the bathroom or I need to go up to that counter at the bank and and put my check into my new account like if You're in a place where you need to have this certain function you can drill that in again like that little bit it'll last with you for a little while but if what your goal is is to be able to communicate in the language in a holistic way and participate in the language Community rather than just you know targeted strikes to get something done

um then then I think there's nothing like a really strong input based approach yeah I actually agree the thing Where I use it and I this is probably similar to what you just said I guess I say it differently if you're talking you're not listening and you don't know the language so you have to shut up that's a great that's great you know you don't know the language and you can't tell them what the language is you have to listen first and so the overwhelming 95 I put myself with with I would say let's say

a somewhat nurtured Social ability and after so many languages yes I know I can break the rules and stuff like this but I'm I'm moving on to my 10th proficient language and so it doesn't the beginner rules don't necessarily apply to me but if I was TR trying to tell someone what I tell them output number one you you should be seeking to communicate because what you said about parents being great with their infants the kid wants to communicate they don't have the things But they might point they might nod yeah and that is what

I think is great anything that that for your output that's giving you a connection to your input or allowing you to get more input that you understand that's what I consider good to do at the beginning but otherwise don't need to pron say this and do don't have to do any of that unless like you said I want to go there I'm going to a football game I want to know how to say who's that plane what Time is it what's the score and then I think those things as you if you do happen to

continue to be in those environments you might learn them quicker by engaging an output and input just because of that potentially but as an overall thing nothing takes you to another level than having that that input and what you said about listening you know I just shut up um I have a friend Reed rigs who says that you know too you're you're also kind of a jerk if You're always going around trying to talk at people like cuz I'm I'm here to practice my language you know that that phrase practicing language kind of gets to

me because I think it's so often that sort of a thing like that and a misunderstanding of the way that you really develop language so completely I think I think like you said I think that output can do something for you to get something back and that kind of Silent or head nod sort of Interaction with people counts that matters it it it I think it's great it keeps you engaged and you know it shows the other person that okay this level of communication that I'm using with you is working for you I see you

understand I see you connect I see you you know maybe these little other little primer words like why or when you know and and that allows you to communicate and feel like you've won in a conversation and I think that's that's so important yeah yeah It's motiv motivational when it's like that what's that say it again it's motivational when you have reasons to do it like that huge thing versus demotivational where you're focused on accuracy and you production for its own sake yeah uh um now I would like to to to maybe go with the

ideas of where do you where do you see writing and reading on your scill for input I mean obviously writing is not necessarily input obviously M where do you see reading and Writing right um yeah here there is a lot of research on benefits from reading and I'm thinking of a whole book called reading in a second language by William gra um which I I love that book and I I joked afterwards that you know it could be a a drinking game where every time he says extensive reading in the book you know because every

single chapter had at least one mention and one chapter was entirely about F okay so the the idea of Getting that same kind of breadth of input in written form as you are getting orally I think is it's very solid and I think the difference there from listening is reading slows down you go at your own pace you have a little bit more control with it and so if if at all possible read in the language it does I think take some help in some languages even more than others and so if you are not

reading in the same script approximately like if you're an English Speaker and now you're reading in Spanish or in French or German you can think you're sounding out the words you still want to be able to connect it to what you've heard um but if you're looking at a new script you're probably going to need some help and so Arabic um Hebrew Greek things like that um Chinese and Japanese especially so where there's not you can't leverage your way in and then just sound it out in Chinese particularly um but but there are more Burdensome

ways to do that and then there are ways that are going to be a little more connected to your your oral language and your oral language and so I would look for those um so I I think regardless of the language it's going to be helpful and very powerful if you read texts again that are written at a level that is close to what you already can understand extremely well just a little bit of new stuff in there so that it's it's not demotivating but also so your Brain is able to pick up a little

bit and that like in the William grade book and research on extensive reading it's 98% familiar words in a text which is way higher than most people think you some you know sometimes for a tolerance level some people don't mind so much a little lower than that but in terms of research of actual comprehension of a text and vocabulary development like if you look at Paul nation's work he does Lots On vocabulary acquisition and a lot of what he's pointing to is that kind of level of reading it's been done in Chinese too so Helen

Chun did a study on the same kinds of issues and you know to get a reasonable level of reading comprehension after a text it was 98% of familiar words to the reader I'm trying to match while you say that I'm trying to match with the with the reading and stuff that I do I definitely give myself a little bit of leeway the place where I Did it in order to level up because I we haven't even talked about it and we will but you know there are phases to language learning as we all know you're

the complete beginner you're beginner you're intermediate or maybe even pre-intermediate if you want to get crazy intermediate and then there's that terrible Zone the intermediate slump is that what you're going to call it yeah oh my God you know a lot of people don't get there I think you know many people Do if you're really into the language you will get there and you will understand hopefully because if you don't it's completely demotivating you will just hang out there and you run the risk of staying there forever if you don't change your stratey A lot

of people do because they're busy you know they they got to the point where they can function in daily life that's where I think that low intermediate kind of thing is like you can get done what you Need to for eating traveling you know but but in terms of like professional level or cultural things or things with a lot more specific vocabulary you're going to be left out at that point yeah yeah yeah it's just not going to happen and and so I was trying to match up what I did in Italian and I have

some leeway because of Spanish and obviously English being my mother tongue and you know to some so I can figure out some words but I I think the I was somewhere recognized At at a certain point with Italian that I was there at this point where it's like I can't I can't listen to this political speech at all but I seem to be okay hanging out with friends like kind of you know in a setting yep that's in the actual scale the the US language Educators Association like they have a proficiency level thing I don't

know how familiar you are with those but that that that is what they call the intermediate low intermediate mid kind Of that that's the range where you're you got good daily life skills yes okay yeah and so I started reading and it's really funny because it the same thing will happen also just with the general input method is it's kind of like you wake up one day and you're like I understand and like my brain makes a switch it's just you know I'm sure if we could watch it in real time with the brain you

could see the neurons firing and kind of being a little bit weaker And then and you continue to do this reading you continue to do this reading continue to this read and somehow at some point it becomes quite strong and as you start to read more and as you start to meet more more things from the language that you don't even know your ability to understand them or guess guess you know like that is is enormous it becomes enormous you become like a huge sponge and you can just jump into things that are completely unknown

and And Come Away with those with that that conversation completely knowing and learning and even participating in the the whole whole thing and and reading definitely does whenever I know I need to to level up that's where I turn to a lot cool cool yeah that makes sense to me but I don't know if I've heard somebody say it that way yeah because there are a lot of things that one can do and it's not that I don't do that's the only thing that I do but i' I've Noticed because I I do like to

read which is another big point right if you don't like to read might be a big issue but I do uh I think if you don't like to read I I would say try audio books and follow the text yeah and like do something that's going to be the same kind of yeah yeah what do you think about uh journaling writing your thoughts when would you try and do that you know once again for the self-study person what do you think I know I have Done that myself when I came back from China just because

I wanted to force myself to think in Chinese after I came back to the States and I didn't have other opportunities yet hadn't found a Chinese Community to be a part of that sort of thing so um I mean for those reasons sure and if you enjoy handwriting write it by hand and if you're just you know if you want to type that's great but again I think it's more like that's where I would put it at a a Smaller amount of of time MH um so it's it's forcing you to rethink and retrieve knowledge

and it might help you show some spots that I I don't think I know how to say this right oh I feel unconfident about that so I'm going to go do something to hear that kind of content again um or I'm going to look that one up and see if did I phrase this in a way people are going to understand me or that sort of thing but um yeah so I that's if it's fun what great if it's Yeah yeah it's it's definitely it's helpful do end up because of the the amount of languages

that I have to do I will situations in my life are governed by certain languages certain notes and certain things they become and if you let them at first it's very annoying because you just want to write in whatever language is simple and easiest to you but if you force yourself with a you know a soft force it really becomes hard to move away from it when you when You're in a social situation or something you know you get like the mental habit there totally totally so I write I will write certain things this note

it's an Italian and because I didn't want to lose uh my ability to read cilc when I moved to Serbia and moved away I would write my notes then in cilc and I would even challenge my brain even more because I maybe I'm a little crazy I would write in cilic sounding them out I would write with Cilic Serbian letters but I would write in French wow yeah just to keep that writing script in your mind just to keep the script it's a double working a bit crazy you know uh but but it's it's it's

a challenge and that's that's what I enjoyed that's a a language L right there yeah that's it I chose to do that that's not one yeah uh so what about grammar overall when do you have a look at anything or what are you thinking about because each language is different You know I mean Chinese for instance isn't going to deal with these long conjugation lists let's say right I love that what do you what do you think for people if they want to have a look at grammar or when they should if they feel a

plateau maybe even I don't know yeah yeah again I think it's it where I I personally in teaching and where I want it myself as a learner that I find is is in the moment of need so is there something that's going to confuse you Because wait why is it worded here this way or what is this going on with this form in the end of these words or or why is that word now in front of the verb instead you know like those sorts of questions if somebody can tell you oh this does this

here to me that's the very best grammar instruction so it's really tied into meaning and it's in the moment of you're you're either confused by something or the teacher might even know uh if I don't note this thing they Might misinterpret here and so those are the places that I really do it the most if you're trying to get to the level where now you're writing a message and you're like wait I I want to say this this this way uh is my message going to get clearly across well then I think checking like a

a grammar Wiki or something like that or I've used chat GPT to Ed some of my Chinese so just to like proofread it like how clearly have I stated this and that was the prompt I Gave it don't change the tone um but but um help point out anything that might not seem flowing and clear right and and I will sometimes get something back and it's often it's helpful to me cuz I understand that but like that wasn't the way I thought to say it so those kinds of issues where you're refining your writing you're

confused by something you perceive in the language or you could be confused by it um and then just getting that over time over time over time again Like that too I see as something that's statistical learning it's not once and done like I think that old school mindset was very much well now we've learned the present tense next year you'll learn the past tense the simple past and then you'll yeah and so I think that looking no it's it's a process over time yeah that's so great to call it in the moment of need and

that is truly the best because then you're you're at your high you're at your highest motivation In order to understand the concept rather than when I just said today past participles tomorrow adjectives but not not normal ones when when they when they happened to be before the BB and after you know and and so yeah that's a great way to go about this uh so if anyone is is watching and listening to this if you haven't yet taken this method and I know it feels awkward to think I'm just going to leave grammar or leave

trying to understand the rules which I I know is Is hard for some to just think just ignore it just ignore it yeah and where I see it like the most often is somebody who's got a kind of analytical mind like honestly people who are Engineers or drawn to engineering Fields like a lot of folks like that they they want to have it be very clear unfortunately languages just aren't quite that clear so even if you get rules the you know English is famous for exceptions to rules but all languages are like that There's sort

of General patterns you might perceive but don't lock in like see I I saw this thing now I'm going to produce it this way and it's always going to be like correct I know that is so so true too if you you allow me this is a story that I think you actually will appreciate that can actually lend something to maybe some of your your your learners I my early days because it was quite early learning German someone had told me or I had picked up somewhere That the grammar for German is a mess and

quite difficult right word order changes and it's it's it's all over the place because of that I decided Well I will just attack the grammar hardcore I'll go straight in and I'll learn all the rules and I set myself back ages ages as far as speaking and communicating yeah what I still retain today because of my obsession with language and my the I knew that I would never stop and I continued to study German to this day um was I still I know I know these odd rules I know the dative you know I even

dative I'm saying it in in German I know these little rules and things like that and so I can actually be my own chat and when I have a sentence I run through all the exceptions okay that's got to be ad dative preposition after it and but it's it's nothing I would ever want to yeah It's not a conver it doesn't work like I'm I'm proof of that it doesn't work I know the exceptions I know them but when I'm speaking I don't have time right it's only when I'm thinking before writing a message yeah

that I get the luxury of doing so so yeah this is what stepen crashing calls the monitor like his his idea of like where that's when you have time to edit that's the only place that you really that kind of instruction can help so yeah yeah It's not in speaking it's not in listening it's maybe in editing and polishing something that you're preparing to present later yeah there you go yeah what do you what do you think about you just mentioned chat TPT so I want to actually there are two parts of technology that I

want to go to let's first deal with chat GPT and how you would or do use that if for a beginner so regardless of what you obviously you're very you're excellent a Chinese what about a beginner do you have you found anything or what are your thoughts there yeah I I would have to know more about some AI options I hear people say that there are some that are good at like scaling down interaction and I I just don't remember the the name of it I haven't tried it where where I see the problems with

chat GPT is asking grammar questions it last I heard it was still spouting back some things that are not Reliable so yeah for Chinese anyway and again how how much where are they getting the information for that and I know that the model is getting better but I don't fully trust that kind of precise answer now I having said you know I'm using it to sort of edit my own polish my own writing but there I think you are going to get language samples when you're it can take a multiplicity of actual texts and compare

what I've said to the way That others have put a similar idea but if it's going to be asking it for tell me why is this a thing in your own home language you know like well that's gonna kind of tough I don't I don't I don't trust it what I do think could be good maybe and it's maybe at that intermediate level where if you're getting if you want to converse so to speak in in the language that you're learning with an AI model I think that could be fun mhm but but it's not

all That good at grading its content for you so if you're a total beginner I don't think that's the place to go I would look for like people on video talking to beginning Learners yeah those sorts of things yeah or people a teacher that does like very that kind of instruction especi or a friend a tutor somebody willing to talk to you simply somewhat repetitively so they like you said like don't leave the subject matter for a while stay on that So then you you're naturally Sheltering how many new words come up yeah so important

and obviously I I agree the I've had it the problem that I have with it not obviously be Beyond not wanting to move towards a transhumanist future that's another thing but it's a mess you have to already understand how to learn language well if you want to try and do that and so the way that I see like if you're just a new beginner and you're Just like I want to learn Spanish I live in America I have some some Hispanic speaking you know some Hispanic friends there's the other options are still light years ahead

of whatever you're going to spend your one hour imagine you have one hour every day if whatever it is there's just no need that's just what I see and so to to not complicate it for everybody that's just what I've kind of been they're not better than us yet yeah so yeah I Agree now the other part of Technology are apps and the love of dare I say Duolingo I was GNA say yeah yeah go ahead and say it I don't care about Duolingo I've talked to them they actually wanted to send me to and

I'm not against dualingo by any means but I'm openly and obviously stating as I have many times on the channel you were not going to learn a language from dualingo nor do I truly believe that their whole goal is to get you to learn A language I think they want you to have a good time and there's nothing wrong with that for sure that's fine but don't think you're going to become proficient in any of those languages just by doing dualingo so apps for you I don't know where they place you know in the pantheon

of things yeah I think dual lingo varies I tried using it for Vietnamese a year ago and it was really yeah it it got into the weeds too fast on grammar it wanted me to produce Sentences perfectly with very specific grammatical features of like articles that were very specialized without telling you the grammar rules so on that case like they were asking for that kind of grammatical knowledge but they weren't teaching it to you so like I really couldn't you know so um and and lacked input on um multiple contexts and multiple so I could

actually start to perceive through the input maybe it's going to be this one this time so um and They were using very unusual Words which might be fun I don't I don't mind that about dualingo like silly sentences I think that makes them memorable and makes it quirky and fun it and it doesn't mean that's all that you can say with the language but when it's like words like Ferris wheel and bat like the animal bat um in the first few lessons in Vietnamese I'm like please tell me wants needs uh goes likes like tell

me words that I can get a lot of Communicative power out of don't make me learn the word Ferris wheel no yeah and that's what they did so again like you know it depends on the language where I like dualingo is the podcasts which I think are only available in Spanish French and English and they they do a little trans languaging there's often like they're they're designed for someone who's maybe an English background or knows English and is using their English to access either the French or the Spanish I haven't heard the English ones I

don't know how they do that if they have other languages in there but um the the content is more like a graded reading version of a really good NPR Podcast okay they interviews they're sort of like in-depth reporting but there's a lot of conversational language in there with other people and then occasionally there's a little bit of an orientation back using the English so like well as She was saying about her past we'll now explore with you know so it's just kind of keeping you on track so helping you through it I I like those

I listen to the French ones sometimes because that's where my French is it's kind of that low intermediate sure sure that's fascinating I'll check that out I mean I know it's I know it's constantly changing right there multi-million dollar tech company so there's and they're at the Leading Edge I guess one Has to say and so they're able to change things quite quickly so I know it's going to improve or change all the time yeah but I had I wish that I wish that apps and I mentioned this to you before too I wish that

apps rather than relying on Linguistics as the pro approach that they they looked at like language acquisition as the approach to designing cuz I don't know of any app that's really directly going after the kinds of principles that we're talking about yeah Yeah I know and it's it's funny because I wish that it existed and you know it's a daunting task and I would take it take it up but my desire and love of books and the tactile and stuff leads me to want to push people away there's such a there's such a I'm not

a big person on FL cards at all um yeah okay yeah and I know for instance memorize which is another uh fairly popular company and and App the idea behind it I think is great and tremendous because you want it to be attached to kind of a situation like it's not just a word and so it's a level up from the traditional just here's a word go memorize this definition so I think there's something better there but the risk is it's really number one the as far as I'm concerned the biggest issue is just the

gamification of it it's too nice and fun for me to just press the right Answer and go to the next one get my dopamine hit I don't even know you know what is this bird okay boom and I just and you just move on and you're not doing the real work which is connecting it to whatever situation that you've you've made and so I find that to be one of the biggest issues in why I'm hesitant in wanting to do my own because I don't really know how I could separate myself from books tactile reading

and the beauty of of of touching things and Or people human interaction yeah in the app I'm you know maybe I'm naive but I don't know no I think so I think those are designed in fact the the gamification there is designed around that kind of repeated little dopamine reward and it's not as maybe as clearly felt in real life things but it's yeah I think it's more wholesome like yeah we can move away from our cell phones more hours in the day I think we'd be better and I say that as somebody's using my

Cell phone too much lately yeah I mean it's a balance right it's a beautiful thing all the people who I know who say that they they would prefer to have less of the cell phone they use it but they want we want to keep it as a tool we basically want to stop the world in around 1999 or so something like that 2001 I don't know whenever where we could we could use navigation and order some food but not have it basically be my entire brain Yeah yeah have you heard of the anxious generation it's

a book no not necess Jonathan height is it's recently got a lot of attention in the US especially in schools which are Banning kids cell phone use during class if not throughout the school day and it's on the rewiring of the brains of young people that really happened without any precedent and without any like what's it going to do to kids to have this kind of tool all day every day for 10 hours or however Long so it's it's we're seeing what it's done and it's made people feel more isolated more lonely even while they're

supposedly connecting to people um yeah yeah yeah well you're connected you're on social media I'm with my friends yeah right no okay well then all right so that that I was quite sure that that was probably where you were you were you were thinking with with apps and things like this uh you've got a few minutes and it's fun for you I I don't think It's usually harmful where where it does I mean it can actually set you back like you just said about German if if it's like English explanations of rules about the language

then I don't think that that's a good use of your time especially as a beginner absolutely not yes right that's that's where I was going also with the flash cards is that I think there's a better use of your time not that you could use if you do what we have just spoken about and stay Within that little bubble and you have those high frequency words and then also you would like to have a flash card but I just want you to go further than that maybe you write out the sentence that you wanted to

use in it and the thing you you know so yeah exactly I agree it's like it it only gives you this little tiny angle on what that word means or how it's used and even if it's in a sentence example or something and so yeah it if it's leveraging you into Being able to read more or to understand more of something then okay you know but but don't disconnect it from that or don't think of right flash card yeah it's yeah limited How would how would you would you go about learning or actually I should

ask you first how have you gone about learning you just mentioned French how have you gone about learning more languages yourself and how have you seen it what sort of things have you seen come up as mistakes or Issues for yourself in utilizing this meth uh perfectionism is kind of a thing I have yeah so some of that I can hinder like I I want to know every single word in the text or something sometimes I think that's fine but you know it it can't be this kind of obsessive I have to know every little

piece of this to be able to get something from it like just relax a little bit more uh don't give yourself the really really hard thing because then you're going to you know 25 New words is better than just five new words on a page no actually research says it's not go with the thing that feels a little more comfortable and you don't feel the learning as much but it is actually in it's more effective yes you're going to retain it you're going to stick with it you're going to build better mentally build better you

know so um those were things that I have had to correct I think yeah but um my own Mandarin is primarily I guess I see now I'm I'm doing language maintenance with my Mandarin at this point because I'm not teaching it right now um so I am seeking to find a Chinese Church in the area um so opportunity to interact with folks and get to know them and then I am listening to podcasts designed for Learners when I need something that's light and I'm listening to podcasts designed for native speakers when I want to dive

into something a little more and this is the case for me with English too Like there are times where I'm like okay I'm not ready for that big heavy dose of a serious topic you know like so it's natural that in Chinese I would want a range of different things and I know how to find it because well that person is designing it for a more advanced learner that person is just talking to Everyday Chinese speakers around the world so I can choose you know which way I want to go with it finding things that

I'm interested in I think has been Sometimes a challenge like I I guess I don't share all the interest of typical social media in Chinese like I like sci-fi um yeah but I can find it now I can find it sure no one of the things that has been one of those perfectionist Let It Go kind of things has been in some of my first choices of novels to read in Chinese I initially was like I I bought all the books that were the native speaker I don't know the content it's Only in Chinese it's

not been translated and and I wanted to really dive into the really challenging but I don't know if it's interesting enough for me and it's going to be hard enough work at the stage that I bought those especially that like is it going to be worth my time so I have started from reading books in Translation that I know I do like I've read some I actually I've read almost all the Jane Austin Books in Chinese now Okay not Mansfield park yet that's that's uh most people's least favorite of her work but it's just it's

just dense and it's long and it it's beautifully done but um less likable characters maybe but but I read The Hobbit that was the first book that I read entirely in Chinese because and and all that helpful background knowledge from reading it in English before was great leverage for getting me into that and so I have read sci-fi directly in Chinese now um there's yeah I can tell you a you you want to know but sunti is the the name of the series they recently did a Netflix version okay we'll throw it up there I

mean that's actually really important that there is because what I'm point that I I wanted to throw to you is something that I'm I'm working on and I'm I'm I'm working on my way of wording this uh and so you may be able to help me but what I've noticed is that because just like we said for instance I Didn't I was unaware of 98% being one of the more ideal portions of reading I know that it's high though right I know that to not read text that I can understand half you wouldn't even get

through it it's it's torturous for your brain everybody kind of that's picking out words that you recognize kind of thing you're not getting it's not reading yeah it's not reading and so but what I've noticed is once you do reach one of the things that will pull you up From it's possible to do with beginner I actually and I'm I'm I I don't know if I'm going to call this layering or leveling or what it is but if you have like we said created this shelter for yourself with an input and you're a let's I

I'll start with the intermediate one and then you can you'll you you'll understand um or we'll see what you what you think but one of the things that I do that pulls me forward quicker if you wanted to go fast and and that's Something I know everyone loves to do if you keep let's say 80% to 90% somewhere like that of your input in this range that we thought it's exactly what you just explained for Chinese what I would do in in any language that I would want to level up I'd spend 80 to 90%

in my area and then 10 to 15% sometimes 20 later on uh in the evening potentially I would then spend at the level above where my comprehension level is less a little Shaky it's kind of a little shaky and what I notice is that it pulls you it pulls you forward as long as you're doing all of the the day work within your stuff rather than just doing yeah and so what I noticed is that if you do that consistent stantly over a period of 7 Days 2 weeks 30 days and it's kind of becomes

a habit to get at least you know your two hours or an hour of this in the morning and then 30 minutes to an hour of the shaky one later you get way for It because especially a language like French if we're talking about what you learn in the comprehensible input in text for what you will see in movies rap any music actually daily speak in Fr is wildly different it's the same in Chinese actually you know the Mumble the Mumble effect is huge uh in these languages same over here in the just they don't

enunciate and so by getting your ear kind of trained to know that there's two different things going On made makes me go faster but I haven't pushed it on anyone else to try it interesting yeah because there's there's debate about like comprehensible input oriented people who talk about how should we carry out our language classes so there's like a um the uh automatic language growth LG is they would they would go I think leaning towards what you just described as as you know they want comprehensible input but they want it to be at a level

that you're hearing The flow of the language you're hearing where the sounds drop out you're hearing the natural speech pace and so you're getting something different from developing word recognition and understanding how words are used in context at this statistical level but you are still getting something from it like you said if you've got the grounding in more comprehensible language skills yeah so I think there's there's value in that it's just not the Same yeah yeah that's not the only thing that will probably get you there unless you have like an automatic language growth classes

thousands of hours instead of just a 100 a year like we have usually in World language classes in the US like 100 to 150 is that's it so that's it wow so if you add it up it's only like 150 hours a year yeah you leave with nothing that's my biggest problem with it is just that they don't necessarily leave with nothing when You're doing it with these good principles behind it is incredible to me and so like the goal really of those language classes ultimately and this is a Steven crashing thing too but I

think it really makes sense for schools in the US that have just limited time on task maybe middle school programs maybe just high school if you've got 100 150 hours a year and you can get them into that intermediate low kind of thing wow that's where they're an intermed or an Independent reader and somebody who can start to consume things out in the world for themselves a little bit more easily than the beginner can so yeah that would change the world actually wouldn't it if everyone could get to an intermediate level which is the same

place you get in math which is the same place you get in your English or whatever class you are at your essays everybody can write an average essay you generally get there with Biology and things like this you Kind of you you grasp the concept of it you're not the specialist but you know if you're interested you know that that's the next step for you exactly exactly and that's completely lacking uh in the other place because you walk away generally speaking unless they're doing these in these things that we've said you're just not getting that

I've run into some people who feel that a tutor should teach them the language and I think their hope is great if they're Doing what you're doing m not a lot of tutors let's say obviously they don't have the qualific or the background that that that you would have but they will rely on what they learned in school they'll teach you about the language they'll correct you every 3 seconds they'll spend the time explaining grammar to the rule like and so an hour will go by and zero input has happened you know zero True Value

and so how do you suggest people go about Finding Tutors or what to do right in searching for tutors I would look for a few keywords and something like teaching through stories that's a good thing to look for um comprehensible input if they know to put a specific term there um input based there are a few terms for different kinds of language teaching methodology that might be helpful too I think that's a little less consistently carried out though meth it's funny that like meths are very Prescriptive about this is the way we're going to do

it but I find that's where it starts to get like I'm I'm looking for like what's the substance what's the thing that you're using you know cuz you can tell me you're doing that but you might not carry it out the way that yeah so um yeah those would be the the two things like story based comprehensible input um if somebody's saying something about low anxiety environment or like comfortable environment don't do a lot Of Corrections yeah not because you don't want to have correct speech but because that's not where you get the correct speech

from it's this like this Zen thing like you get you get your result not by doing the perfect speaking you get your result by hearing good speaking and gradually you start to produce a little bit more and it starts to approximate yes so yeah somebody that understands that process would be really helpful okay Yeah yeah and it is counterintuitive and I know I see it with people who don't know anything about language learn they'll try and correct or they'll think they're helping oh no no no you say it like this if it number one I

just hope you understood me that's all I was looking for I I feel like you're there you're raiding my language I've had this happen a lot yeah and and like even when it's a compliment it's like but I was trying to get an idea Across did you hear what I said or are you just thinking about the way I sounded yeah I know yeah yeah I don't know if that's necessary and what a weird world it would be in uh you know to have grammar police even in your your people do it in their mother

tongues as well but it's even worse in a second language because also that might be very important to you that I missed that point but might not be important to me and therefore I won't remember it uh It's not helping it's just breaking our flow and need to do is communicate think I found out who I don't want to be friends with yeah that's all you know um okay where should we have people if they want to see more obviously if they want to learn Chinese we already will have said this I already have said

this in the post or in the in the intro where to go because you have a YouTube channel I do as well yes I do videos with my chickens in the backyard yes I know all About them I know all about them where they're fun where should people look what else besides that yeah um I have an old blog that is more oriented towards language teachers but there are some posts there that are about language learning and so independent language Learners might benefit especially if they're thinking of Mandarin I have some collections of graded reading

in in Chinese linking to the places that those are for sale stuff like that um the YouTube channel um I I have a podcast with a friend Reed rigs we call it conversations about language teaching again it's more oriented towards the teaching Community but I think that some of the issues that we talk about come out because we're also language Learners um so there it's not Irrelevant for language learners but sure that would be another possibility um um I'm thinking beyond that I do a lot of stuff but it's yeah we'll link to it we'll

link to yeah We'll link to all of this stuff I mean it's going to be fantastically interesting for everybody obviously oh one one I haven't always mentioned um if someone is a Chinese language learner and they're working with somebody and they want to try things that fit into this kind of Paradigm um I have a book that's for Chinese language teachers on different teaching strategies so there's some that are more focused on auditory input some more reading activities that Are very whole class supported some more independent reading activities some writing how can you use that

U assessment that kind of thing so if a if a learner was like oh I want to I want to find somebody that can do these sorts of things can we do this one you know like that they could actually do that I think with that book but wow it's an ebook so that's a different one okay well perfect yeah I mean you'll send us over all the all the links we'll put Everything we'll put everything right there in the description and Diane thank you this has been obviously great well it's been very fun so

yeah and I'm I am curious too about your ongoing like maintenance of multiple languages because so that was interesting for me to hear about too oh yeah I mean it's actually quite easy you have to it's hard at the beginning the whole entire thing is that you need to set up a life that way you can do it there's no Way to maintain that level of language unless you've set up some places where you're speaking those languages so you don't have to really think about it yeah I chose to I choose not to speak English

with the people who I know are proficient or native speakers in Italian and French and this and that depending on what the the stuff is and then my reading now has changed fantastically because once you can get to that level of Independent Learning and reading I'm Reading a book on Bruce in Italian just because I bought it in Italy there's the power of the subconscious mind I'm reading in Spanish because why not right and so I avoid English as much as possible yeah uh and that is a tough thing to do but if you're a

if you're a lifelong polyglot and something it's kind of a decision you just got to get used to yeah that makes sense