I really like the way that Jordan Peterson articulates it but I think he misses the forest for the trees in all of this what do you think of Jesus and the last basically 20 minutes of the conversation Wes pivots to ask Joe this question and the conversation that ensues is epic let's watch I like you don't know in all of this what do you think of Jesus like in terms of your own what do you think of Jesus journeying and trying to find answers to ultimate question questions what do you think of the historical person
of Jesus well it certainly seems like there's a lot of people that believe that there was this very exceptional human being that existed so the question is what does that mean does does it mean he was the son of God does it mean he was just some completely unique human being that had this vision of humanity and this way of educating people and spreading this ideology that would ultimately change the way human beings interact with each other forever so what is is is he the Son of God well are we all that's another question right
are do we all have that inside of us do we all so you can see just right off the bat here he's basically giving two big alternatives to the Christian alternative he's saying one is he just like a really good moral teacher someone who had vision of what Humanity needed uh or two is he when he he says the Son of God uh saying that we all have within us uh the Son of God this is kind of the Richard Roar sort of Christ Consciousness idea Jesus was Christ and you can be also so you
can see like the different influences on Joe Rogan's thought here and the it almost feels like he's budding up against this idea that Jesus was who he said that he was and it's like ah but I don't know about that but let's think about this let's think about this it continues on but I love the direction that this takes all have that ability to change everything around us inside of us we all have that unique connection to the Divine and is he a representation of the best version of that or was he an actual person
that was the son of God and is it important yeah I don't know Wes does an amazing job showing that there's uh more sources for Jesus from Nazareth than there was for tiberious Caesar who was literally the Caesar during the time of Christ and so but you can again see it's like it's it's like a river running Downstream and he's hitting these different rocks and he's not sure if he wants to stay at the dam or if he wants to keep going Downstream to his ultimate Final Destination um I'll let it keep playing here what
does it mean it it's the just the fact that it's a question to ponder is a miracle in itself in a way just the fact that there's this concept of this person that died for our sins it's the Son of God but you have to buy a bunch you have to believe in a bunch of stuff to go that way like just the concept of that is interesting to people because what it can do to people is offer them a very unique way to change the way they feel about the world itself and if you
do follow that I know a lot of Christians are hardcore Christians are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet in your life so it does work right like if you do live like a Christian and you do follow and so here you can see he's basically transitioning into what people have called therapeutic moralistic deism basically Christianity is good in the extent that it's utilitarian it's good in the extent that it serves some purpose it's not necessarily true Jesus wasn't necessarily actually who he said that he was this is yet another common uh way of
viewing the Bible that is coming up in this conversation um that he's again it's so funny to me because it's like he's throwing everything at the farm here but let's see where this conversation goes all the principles of Christ you will have a richer more love-filled life so it is true right but you have to submit to this concept that this guy was the child of God who came down to earth let himself be crucified came back from the dead explained a bunch of stuff for people and then said all right see you when I
come back and you don't know how you can wrap your head around that particular claim came back here's the thing if he came back who the would believe him today with all the fake news and all the CGI and AI like imagine that would be the most bizarre thing of all time if we get to a point where AR I do think about that too and we actually had a whole video on this where because there's another Joe Rogan video where he's talking about Jesus returning on the White House lawn and how that would be
you know the biggest story in the history of the world bigger than UFOs or aliens or anything else and I I have to agree with that artificial reality is IND discernible from regular reality and Jesus chooses to come back at that moment boy that's the ultimate test of faith right when it's impossible to discern if we really reach a point where virtual reality is indistinguishable from regular reality which we're probably a hundred years away from that or something like how maybe not even that yeah I don't know I mean that's probably why Jesus came in
the first century and not the 21st century but imagine imagine if that's the that's the big catch Like Jesus Does return but when he returns we're just so confused yeah and I think the way that he's putting this here is honestly a little bit of a Troll he's got a twinkle in his eye and I think he's basically again kind of just trying to avoid that one answer that Jesus actually was the unique Son of God that Jesus actually is the Incarnation of the invisible God that he really did die for a purpose and that
the death of Jesus actually had power in it to save people people from their sins you know that's that's the Christian claim and I and it's even here you know this this concept that he's talking about of how it' be difficult to know if it was really Jesus in the age of AI and all this all of that undermines God's ability to communicate to people and basically the authority of God um in the real world but I I think he's I think he's purposefully trolling Wes a little bit here we can't even tell yeah or
maybe that's how he returns in the first place maybe he returns through AI yeah maybe that's the portal to Jesus I don't know anything about that yeah I mean that scares a out of me I really appreciate I mean guys that you're friends with right like the Jordan Petersons and the Douglas murres of the world or you know the they get into talking about Jordan Peterson archetype and Jesus as a moral Exemplar Wes does an amazing job here of showing the common misund understanding around these ideas Hollands not the Spider-Man actor the historian who talk
about this stuff I think I really like the way that Jordan Peterson articulates it but I think he misses the forest for the trees how so in that he sees Jesus as an archetype and I don't think actually even Jesus gives you the opportunity to see him as the archetype because I I both I have this LoveHate relationship with all of Peterson stuff because he's he seems to get so much right where he walks up to the line but he doesn't want to cross over and is the crossover you think connected to a life and
acad or what do you think it is I I wonder and I'd love to talk to him about this like how do you uh remedy this issue that because he seems to think it that the concept of Jesus as an example is more important than the actual Flesh and Blood first century itinerate Jewish preacher who was crucified and rose from the dead physically which is the claim of the gospels and the rest of the New Testament that that's that's an example for us to look on and live by but I I actually think that Jesus
condemns moralism and ultimately what I see Peterson doing is looking at Jesus as a moral example and if Jesus is nothing but a moral example then you can save yourself and you don't actually need a savior I'm going to let him continue but I want to say the person who I heard articulate this idea um the best or at least the most memorable to me was Tim Keller who said that Jesus is either far below or far above every other religious figure because if he was lying then he's far below a person claiming to be
God you know kind of had had it coming and so there's nothing virtuous about lying there's nothing virtuous about deceiving people there's nothing virtuous about you know basically starting a false religion if Jesus was lying about being who he said that he was alternatively if Jesus was telling the truth then he's no longer on equal plane with any other person in in in any other religion because he's not pointing to the way he's not showing you a model of living he's actually saying that if you've seen me you've seen the father that that he is
the image of the invisible God that he and the father are one that he's the only way to the father that he is the way the truth of the life that he is the way and so again Jesus is either far below or far above it's sort of like cus Lewis's you know famous trilemma of he's lunatic liar Lord we've already covered the fourth L that's been more uh brought into the conversation recently of Legend but that has already been thoroughly debunked in this episode of The Joe Rogen experience I'll let it continue here and
so I think actually Jesus would have critiqued that because Jesus was very against moralism and what how does he how do you define Jesus being against moralism like what do you mean by that exactly well Jesus looks at the religiosity of his day with like particular groups like the Pharisees and the s ues who are these other like uh these other groups of Jews during his day so we talked about the ESS actually aren't mentioned in the bible but there are other groups like the Pharisees who are like lay Scholars and the Sadducees who are
professional priest Scholars and he's constantly critiquing the fact that they have this hypocritical religiosity to them where they're doing things like um tithing their mint leaves like to make sure that they get all of this is where we get the idea of the letter of the law versus um the intention of the law like Jesus critiques them for that because he says you're trying to do everything right and you're missing the point so one of the things he says is like um uh if your donkey Falls in a ravine on the Sabbath do you pull
it out or does that work like what's the point of the Sabbath is it to not do any work like is it to make sure that you're not working too hard because he might be breaking the Sabbath or like what is the point he says like the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath and that there's this intention this is the whole Sermon on the Mount um Matthew Chapter 5 is he keeps saying you have heard it said but I say and he refers to the Mosaic law and it looks like he's
critiquing the Mosaic yeah I want to say really quick on this point a lot of people say oh there you go Jesus is a progressive Christian he's he's saying you have heard it said but I say but actually he's going back to the original design that that Yahweh um intended and so it's actually not it's actually funny because and again I'm not making a point about conservative versus liberal here necessarily but it is actually him conserving the original intention of the law and not progressing into some Brave New World but actually conserving the original idea
and then contending against the progressives who were actually the Pharisees who had added on a bunch of man-made religion and tradition and things in in the oral tradition on top of actually what was given at SI I mention that because that's often confused Jesus in his Sermon on the Mount is often wielded uh to support the idea of an Ever evolving um Revelation when actually he's going back to the original design mic law but he's not actually he's getting back to the intention of the law right so when he he says you know you have
heard it said do not commit murder but I say to you anybody who Harbors uh Harbor's a hate for their brother in their heart has already committed murder and and what he's getting to is like what's the intention what's the meaning of the law that God puts gives to you because the law is like a mirror it shows you how dirty you are but his critique is he's like you guys are trying to clean yourself with a mirror that's stupid it's just going to if anything it's going to make you more messy like get in
the shower the the law is not what cleans you the law is what reveals that you're dirty amen and so in that sense I think you know if Jesus is a moral example it actually misses what I Think Jesus actually said about what his purpose was in that you can't do enough to actually live up to the standard that god holds you to and so if you keep striving you're you're actually going to wear yourself out and be exhausted like atheists I didn't say you did Joe a lot of them go crazy they go crazy
such a funny note that they they end on there where Joe is actually the one admonishing atheist for moralism um but I want to say this that the point being made at the end of this by Wes here is so significant because it contends with something that is so often misunderstood about Christianity namely that it is a system of rules namely that it is just another religion giving you some scaffolding to climb in order to get into God's good favor no Christianity is exactly the opposite of that Christianity stands apart from every other world religion
in the sense that it says that the message of Christianity is that God has done something for us there is a good news that we have to cherish and to hold a message of Salvation that God our creator has actually paid the price for us that God has lived the perfect life that we cannot live that God has died the death that we deserve in light of our breaking of his law god is perfect where we are imperfect that God is merciful where we are sinful that God is forgiving where we have fallen short that
all have fallen short of the glory of God but that God has literally said I don't want anybody to be apart from me and I mean that so seriously that the only way that you will be is if you do it Over My Dead Body that is literally the message of the Gospel that God is willing to come and to die for people in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us and that while we were his enemy Christ died for us this conversation is so fascinating because they go into the historic they
go into the intellectual they go into the scientific and at the end of the day Joe here is faced with this question that every person is faced with which is was Jesus telling the truth was Jesus really who he said that he was the the question that made Jordan Peterson cry on camera several years ago that the narrative world and the historic world could touch that the greatest myths could actually be embodied in a real person that Christ would be the true myth that at the center of the human story is a cross is God
entering in like Shakespeare entering into Hamlet laying laying himself down for people offering us hope where there is none other offering Us justice in the sense that he contends with the problem of evil that he pays the price he pays the debt he conquers evil forces he sets the record straight he equalizes the playing field of all Humanity offering us forgiveness and it happened in history as W as Wes clearly lays out here Christ offers us forgiveness in history that the theological implications of that get unpacked over the next centuries and really over the thousands
of years that follow but here is Joe butting up against was he a good moral teacher that doesn't really work because he was a liar was he a legend that doesn't really work because the historic record couldn't be more clear and now finally was he actually telling the truth well that now it's getting interesting imagine if you were imagine if Jesus was actually telling the truth imagine that the death of Jesus actually accomplished something real imagine if the problem of evil that we all hate actually has a solution in the real world imagine if salvation
is available to all imagine if Christ died for all so that all might live and and then you think about the the real world and you think about each life that we're living trying to make sense of why we're here trying to make sense of our purpose our destiny wrestling against our own evil inclinations our own addictions our own depression our own sense of apathy our own sense of what what are we getting up in the morning for what are we living for I just want to connect the dots from this conversation o of Christ
as someone who shows you the law as a mirror and then asks you not to clean yourself with it but to look into it and to see your own moral failure why not because he wants to give you guilt and shame I recently watched the Aaron Rogers documentary who Aaron Rogers walked away wrongly uh understanding that at the center of Christianity is guilt and shame no it isn't at the center of Christianity is is is a contention with the the moral failing of the individual but that intention doesn't stop there that intention is intended to
point you to humility so that you can see beyond humility Beyond if you want to call it guilt so it's guilt leading into humility but then beyond that is forgiveness and beyond that is a person beyond that is the god man Jesus Christ with his arms outstretched offering hope offering forgiveness offering love offering justice so so that's where the story ends is is with the ultimate exclamation point that that God died but then Rose and and that Jesus showed us that he's the genuine article that he really is who he said that he was and
that by the way he has the power to defeat death who was our greatest enemy everybody nobody wants to die and here's Jesus saying on on on full display here is my power over death here is my power over your biggest BS in the cross nothing can stand in his way um nothing can compete with with with him in any other religious tradition and so it's like man free yourself from the shackles of religion but don't go into atheistic nihilism free yourself from the shackles of religion and moralism and what the Pharisees taught and what
every other religion teaches and and and and allow Jesus to set you free with his glorious love and his Gospel of Salvation the good news that he has done for you what you cannot do for yourself and then he and that he has a plan for you a Destiny for you a future for you that is filled with hope free yourself from religion and allow yourself to be loved by your creator through his wonderful wonderful sacrifice on your behalf his wonderful love toward you that he has already demonstrated and that Christ died for you while
you were still sinner it's the opposite of guilt and shame it's the opposite of of um of religion in many in many ways it's Christ crucified for you so that you would not be dead in your sin and so that you would not face death itself but that you would have life he who has the son has life he who does not have the son does not have life choose this day who you will serve thanks for watching this I hope you guys liked it I hope you guys liked Wes Huff this whole episode is
awesome go check it out and I I just also have to say um if you guys like this conversation there's a lot of other conversations like this on the channel there's a Spotify link in the description below to where you can watch the daily dose of wisdom podcast we have the wisdom society as well below if you want to join in growing Christ with other believers from around the world join the wisdom Society um subscribe to the channel if you guys want more of this type of content um there's a there's a Revival happening right
now there's an intellectual re Revival I believe that is leading people to the authenticity of the Bible and the glory of the central character of the Bible God himself so um it's very exciting I'm very excited to see this happening in our culture I think people are so tired of being lied to I think people are so tired of being told that they're nothing more than matter nothing more than an evolved ape and so I think that the truth rings out in 2025 and that there are ears to hear it
