we should be different from the rest of the world we're going God I actually want your leadership in my life I want your your commands in my life I want to be a part of your kingdom I want a king it's not like uh you know when in the period of the judges where everyone just want to do what was right in their own heart we're going no we want leadership Lord we love your leadership we love your commands that's weird to the world welcome to the Crazy Love podcast in today's episode Francis sits down to discuss some of the challenges facing today's church leaders how do you lead in a culture that's growing more and more opposed to Authority and he shares one of the most important lessons he's learned in all of his years of leadership all right thanks for joining our crazy love podcast this week I am with Sean breakey Sean breakey is one of the elders at our church and we've been friends for uh I don't know what 10 12 years he had 2010 so like 13. is that when you started coming to see me I came in 2009. oh and then you moved their first couple years right well I was only I was there from 2009 to 2011.
you moved in 2011. okay January okay so we met in 2010. okay but 2012 yeah you actually started to like me and yeah oh I see yes that's right raised you with conversation I really appreciate that yeah and Sean is heading up our along with a guy named Rob zabala another one of her Elders heads up our church intensive which is uh pastors leaders coming from really all around the world and you've been doing that how long that's been six and a half years six and a half years and how many pastors have come through we've probably had about 2500 okay pastors leaders yeah just to talk to them about church and I mean really to minister to them but also have discussions about church and House gathering smaller Gatherings just um but really just biblical commands of what the church ought to be so today we're going to talk a little bit about leadership you had some questions that I think a lot of these pastors are asking and so um you go ahead and Lead Me yeah whatever this will be weird yeah exactly finally yeah 13 years in I get to lead Francis um so yeah I think you know like you mentioned the church intensive a lot of it has been I think trying to stay in step with how the spirits LED you in really rethinking the church right so not deconstructing in the way that I think a lot of people are which is like stepping away from the scriptures but really trying to press in deeper to this scriptures what does God clearly say in Scripture that he wants of us as his church and so one of the topics that comes up a lot is leadership um and so I'm curious for you as you have gone through this process of rethinking things according to scripture what are some of the things that you feel you're you're more convinced of now in regard to leadership that God desires in Scripture yeah I mean it seems like that's the instruction is to appoint Elders in every city and somehow that was going to solidify the church I mean Paul goes and he plants these churches um and it seems like because he's only there for a few weeks sometimes and these churches start it would be hard for him to appoint elders and go well you seem really mature after two weeks um so it's like the church went on for a while but then he's telling Timothy and Titus look you need to go back and there need you need to establish Elders these leaders and gives you these qualifications in Timothy Hannon Titus about what their lives should look like and then you move to Hebrews and it talks about how you're to obey these leaders you're supposed to observe the outcome of their way of life and imitate their their faith and so it does seem like my best understanding of scripture is the church is not just hey everyone we we are all absolutely 100 equal male female slave free whatever in the sight of God as far as positionally before him but uh there is clear evidence in the New Testament that there ought to be spiritual leadership in the church and so I know a lot of the smaller Church movements uh tend to be about hey there's no leader amongst us we're all just buddies hanging out we don't feel like we need a leader um but scripture seems to suggest or even even command very strong suggestion um that there's a role for the Shepherds for the leaders and uh and they're there to take care of the flock well I mean even just that analogy of a Shepherd to A Flock um I mean it's not like all the Sheep are just hanging out it's like who wants to lead today you know it's there's there's a clear leader amongst them and I see that in scripture mm-hmm yeah and like what you said we found to be super common is a lot of people that have said hey you know we're rethinking a lot of these things in the church hey I don't know if we necessarily need a big building but you know we're not against buildings but hey I don't know if we need this huge you know they're they're rethinking a lot of like the programs and then they go yeah and I don't know if we need leadership and you're hitting it right on that it it's in oftentimes it'll be with some very spiritual language which uh sounds good which is like hey Jesus is the leader right and he's the leader of the church there's no human leader of his church and um and so that's super helpful as you're pressing in on that because uh that's what we try to emphasize a lot is yeah but biblically we see these texts about submitting to leadership and so I I guess maybe going on that a couple texts that I'm curious for you to um speak into is second Corinthians 13 10 Paul writes for this reason I write these things while I'm away from you then when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down so here's Paul's talking about the authority that he has Titus 2 15 he says declare these things exhort and rebuke with all authority so Paul is telling Titus to rebuke and exhort with all authority let no one disregard you right so there's like a he's calling towards Authority um I don't know thoughts as you hear those texts like what does that mean for us to have authority yeah well I think my first thought is when people hear Authority it's like a bad word it's negative and I my mind goes to Ephesians 4 where it's talking about uh Christ and it says when he ascended on high he led a hope host of captives and he gave gifts to men and saying yes send and what does it mean but that he also descended into little regions the Earth he who descended as the one who ascended far above all the heavens that he might fill all things and he gave the apostles their prophets their evangelists the Shepherds and teachers to equip the Saints for the work of Ministry for building up the body of Christ so it's this idea of Christ going up to heaven and yet he's dispensing these gifts to his church so he's leaving the Earth he was on the Earth but now he's leaving the Earth but he's giving these gifts to men and then he describes these people and it's same thing he gave the apostles prophets of Anders Shepherds and teachers to equip the Saints it's it was a gift to us um and I mean we think about this with with every we think this way with everything God's commands like uh commands and that's not the way the scriptures talk about his commands his commands lead to life the psalm is in one night Psalm 119 is like he goes I open my mouth and I pant longing for you know these commands I feel like I wanted I wanted I want is truth because it's so good and in the same way we as Believers we we should be different from the rest of the world we're going God I actually want your leadership in my life I want your your commands in my life I want to be a part of your kingdom I want a king it's not like uh you know when in the to the judges where everyone just wanted to do what was right in their own heart we're going no we want leadership Lord we love your leadership we love your commands that's weird to the world and now we're supposed to take it a step further where we go God you say you've given us this gift of leaders in the church where are they you know I I want to come under them and I want to find these these Godly leaders who will help me in the ways of God that's the way it ought to look um but sadly when we read those passages and people hear them there's just this sense of uh I don't like that right yeah totally and so I guess for leaders out there as we think about trying to walk in that what the Lord has for us in that regard right there could probably be two different sides that we could fall on either would be unhealthy which is not walking in any Authority right so being passive as a leader being timid like not exercising The Authority that God's given us or on the flip side we can maybe step outside of the spirit and start maybe trying to control and manipulate and push people in the flesh to do certain things we were talking about that earlier this morning curious your thoughts for leaders out there how do you walk in biblical Spiritual Authority yeah I would say number one is look at your example um you know it's the same thing we're taught as parents you know most of what your kids learn will be caught and not taught um it's it's uh it's one of those things where yeah we have the authority to enforce things um you know biblically we're called to that um but you know like Paul tells Timmy watch your life and your Doctrine closely and there's something about your life and your doctrine that will ensure the salvation of your hearers and so you first have to look at your own life as a leader and go why would people want to follow me and that's that's a it's tough to get to the root of that and to be honest with that and take time and to try to look at yourself as an outsider and go wow if I saw Francis Chan in his life would I follow him when I respect him what I want to say hey teach me because I want to I want to become like you I want to imitate you like the like Hebrews 13 says imitate their faith um so before anything else before we we talk about okay here's what you do for this guy you're kind of yes you never wants to listen you know first we got to take a look at ourselves and go um um am I worthy of imitation I use illustration I don't know if this is offensive or not but my my wife you know once went to back then was called aerobics an aerobics class and uh you know we pay money go to the gym and this was back when I went to the gym and uh she came home one day and I'm like hey how was it she goes there's a new teacher and she's like probably 250 pounds and so I'm like looking at her and she's doing these motions but it was I'm trying not to be judgmental and I'm not being hateful it's just as an aerobics instructor like that doesn't motivate me you know I don't go oh yeah I want to be like her you know it it's it's just it's the same thing uh are we showing this life that is truly life like scripture says are we showing like First Peter 1 says this this joy inexpressible and and full of Glory are we showing a piece that surpasses comprehension um because a lot of times the problem is not I get it there's rebellious people they won't follow anyone but a lot of times it's like you know most people will look like if you know it's like my wife if she saw some ripped girl that's you know doing all these exercises and everything else and knew that she used to be you know huge and it's like wow I want to learn from her you know and in the same way that's that's that's our Instinct and I think as Believers when we see a Godly Godly person gosh I don't know about you but my heart's just like I want to hear everything you have to say I want to soak that in and I genuinely believe that's the biggest problem is you know when leaders start saying follow me um almost in a fair sake away you know like Jesus says Hey listen to what they have to say but don't do what they do um that's very hard to do and I think that's that's that's why a lot of Believers parishioners find themselves in this place where if they're really honest they're gonna I don't I don't respect him and uh which at that point you go well then I don't know if you should really be in that church now there are other times when there are people who just uh they can't see beyond themselves they really believe that everything they think is right and so they follow as long as you agree with them or you're saying the things they already believe and that's real that's a very real situation and and now we have a huge movement of people that anytime they're confronted on their sin they call it oh you're abusing me spiritually the Bible is commanding me to rebuke and call out your sin I mean you should want me to you know it's it's like a you know that coach or whoever that's saying come on I know you can do better than this pick it up you know when you're yelling back and like you know you're abusing me it's like it's this weird final because I know that there are abusive people out there controlling people out there that are uh maybe using the ministry to take advantage of people whether it's financially emotionally whatever Paul even warns against that there'll be those that are are making these long you know prayers for the sake of getting close to these widows or whatever just creepy stuff is out there but uh we're starting to call it everything creepy you know or that's not the word but you know spiritual abuse and I agree there is some out there but B careful um you can't just label any time you're confronted with your sin spiritual abuse otherwise what is the role of the leader anymore yeah yeah I always use the sports analogy I think about like for me one of the best things for me I think was playing basketball growing up having coaches that would get in my face and yell at me and it just and I hated it and I didn't like them in the moment but in hindsight I look back and I go that was so good for me to to not quit and that's and I don't know if those coaches even really loved me right but they wanted me to be a better basketball player yeah so like how it's almost like how much more so in the church when this person loves me and they're challenging me should I trust it when I can look back at coaches in high school who are uh you know getting on me because I keep making the same mistake and I was frustrated but I knew it made me grow and and it's definitely we're in a time where it's a lot harder for people to take challenge right people want to quit the team right away I wanted to quit but then I wouldn't and it was so good for me yeah yeah and I will say I'm going to say it's publicly on the air you're a good basketball oh wow and I will say publicly you're a better basketball player than I am wow that's really big for you but when the pressure moment if it's like for the game winner I would trust myself over interesting it's just a mental strength I have on that I just want to make that clear but I admitted you're better you're better like everywhere better when it doesn't matter yes that's trying to really figure out what you're seeing here there you go that's that's what I was trying to say yes thank you for that all right sorry oh it's okay um so as you talk about the importance of Godly leadership um for you you know you've been in the role of a senior pastor before you know you started we are church and you you from the beginning and you're trying to appoint Elders so think about in the context of that how do you try to instill a culture like that so think about for like senior pastors out there for people who are in leadership they're trying to raise up new leaders how does that get cultivated so you're speaking to like in yourself first right but then how do you try to see that culture in the church yeah I'm gonna sound like a broken record again but I see it everywhere like when I go visit churches there's staff is so much like the lead Pastor there's like uh there's so many not exactly the same but there's so many so much of what that leader is like is you can see it in the staff um and the people that are closest to him and and I mean there's something about that that's really good because it shows that a lot of time together and they start taking on the characteristics of the leader and so and and now the phase of life that I'm at uh I I bring this up again because I have regrets I think gosh I just I know Christ differently now and I may have led from a very not maybe more of a controlling like demanding or I was just worried about producing or results rather than really making sure people were doing things compelled by the love of Christ sometimes as a leader you just think okay I need this done this done this done we need to get this sin out of the church we've got to get you know our stats right now or 80 percent are in pornography let's get that down to 30.
you know whatever whatever it is you're you're pushing for something but it's just behavior that may not be motivated you know like the love of Christ compelling them you could be causing people to do things out of Pride you know to uh you know like an incentive okay we'll make you a pastor if or give you a raise if you know this I don't think I ever did that but there's almost these weird incentives that are actually sinful um because then now people are doing things out of Pride and it draws attention to their own name um rather than really to the praise of his glorious Grace and so you end up looking back in life and and you just wish you had been a better Pastor to some of your staff and some of it you know you don't know what you don't know and some of it is just maturity and um but that's why I I just for those listening I I just want to say man if you're a leader right now it's an awesome thing that you do but it's a very heavy weight of responsibility and most of us know like with our children um you know if we're growing in the Lord we see how we maybe treated our first kid different from our seventh wife for those of you who are blessed um you know because you learn things over time you see what matters and what doesn't matter so much and and so I think with shepherding it's the same thing early on you may think this matters this matters this matters and later on time you realize oh here are the things that really do and things I'm grateful for are those friendships those relationships um gosh I was very close to a lot of the fellow leaders on the staff and those are some of the relationships I continue on to this day and and still laugh with them and enjoy the good old days and and I'm able to still encourage them in their faith and they still encourage me in mine and that's a gift and we'll be doing that for all of eternity it's it's pretty awesome and and there's something great about being able to encourage one another after decades and go you know what you're still an example to me in this area or that area and sometimes the urgency of the moment like well we've got to make salary this week and we've got you know Easter's coming or whatever it may be and you lose sight of uh a lot of the fruit that is being produced that's going to last and I'm just kind of rambling with different thoughts I forgot your question but hopefully that answered something doesn't matter now yes that's good yeah so you had referenced earlier and maybe want to Circle back to some of um and we were you know we were talking earlier this morning just about a lot that's going on in the culture in regard to the church right a lot of I don't know if it's and it seems like it is failure in leadership increasing but even if it's not it's definitely highlighted more more visible um people close to you that you've walked you know kind of with through failure and I guess thoughts on how maybe first as from the leader's perspective um how do we respond to that how do we how do we lead maybe in light of what we can see going on in church culture hmm yeah I guess broken record again I look at myself and you know I've set some things up in my life some guard rails of ever since I got married it's like okay I will not go in a car with another woman I'm not going to be alone with another woman I'm just you know when I travel you know if it's with people I'm unfamiliar with you know I'll bring a you know one of my kids or one of the staff or my wife there's just guard rails because I don't want to fall and so there's the discipline side of it um then on the other side of that spectrum is my love relationship with Jesus himself and gosh I mean the last couple months I feel like all I can talk about is the love of Christ and and how excited I am about it's this next season the next few months continuing to grow in that love like I just know that my life is going to get better period and because it's not it's not like oh because I'm not gonna have any physical ailments or whatever gosh I'm gonna have a lot of them coming up I'm getting older and older and getting close I know it's just like yeah anyways uh so that I can't control but so well then how do you know you're gonna be happy already well because you can control this in a sense you know when we seek him with all our heart we will find him and at his right hand really are Pleasures forevermore and so I'm gonna seek that and seek that and right Paul says I've learned the secret to be content in any other circumstances yeah and so that I would say again is number one look at yourself man are there any seeds of that and and and truthfully some of you that are listening right now are in major sin that you don't want anyone to know about and what I will say about this is gosh I've heard people say oh you know I just I know I've committed adultery a hundred times I mean this is not I heard this recently you know but I'm going to keep leading worship um even though I've done this uh a hundred times in the last few months um because I'm anointed and it's for the sake of the church okay look you are first you're a hypocrite secondly you're not helping the church um it's it's like Aiken's sin in the Old Testament you can hide it but then all of Israel gets punished and they're wondering why um and it all boils down to this guy where you almost look at him like that's not fair well that's part of being in the body um there's a blessing upon the church when we're walking together in unity and Purity um and so God blesses that and so we we've got to understand that the best thing you can do for your church is to step down um to be honest and don't they want to protect the church by hiding my sin no that's gonna kill us you know it's almost like Jonah being on that ship and it's like what these storms are gonna die just toss Jonah overboard some of you guys need to do the Jonah thing you know you know what it's me I'm I'm gonna go for a swim you know and I know that's that's a tough thing to hear um uh but you gotta love the church and believe the word of God look the whole idea of being above reproach in Scripture as an elder the best I understand it is if everyone knows who you really are would they still follow you people knew what your thought life was like they knew what your eyes looked at they knew what your prayer life was like what your marriage was like would they really still let you be in a position you're in that's really important um and I have to look at my life regularly and go okay no I'm not without sin but you know no one's without sin but you gotta look at your life and go is it exemplary because there are a lot of these scandals out there we just don't need another one doesn't mean hide so they don't find out about it I'm just saying you know Bow Wow gracefully just leave for a while um get your life together uh the other thing I would say too is uh yeah it's really hard seeing some of these guys fall that I've stood up for and I I don't know what to do about that I mean and I'm not saying I don't love them anymore either because I understand how tempting the enemy can be and and sure there's a time where they need to be out of ministry and restore their lives but I think I still love them equally if anything I have more compassion for them and want to see them restored [Music] um and I think that's the right way to look at it but there is a sadness because I just think gosh this the church just doesn't look real attractive to the world this is all they're seeing and they're not seeing enough of the other side of what Christ offers and that real life and peace and joy and holiness gift to us is the ability to put to death the Deeds of the flesh because we're in such a great love relationship yeah and as you're sharing too is so good like I think about so on the other side of the spectrum picturing the people who maybe were in a church where they experience some unhealthy things from leadership or maybe even to the point where like hey extreme hypocrisy you know something comes out and it's devastating for them so maybe people who are still there's I know there's a lot of people out there I'd imagine people who listen to this who have left the church and in their minds are like I don't leave Jesus but I've just I've had it with the church or unbelievers out there who might be watching this who are like ah the church just looks ugly like you said or at least that's their perspective yeah what would you say to them well I would say first of all we're commanded you know I'm in Hebrews 10 you know not to neglect this this Gathering of the Saints so I don't really have that choice from a follower of God I can't neglect these things and then you also look at the the gifts in the in the mention of First Corinthians 12 through 14 and how the I can't say to the hand I don't need you it's you're a part of the body and you're supposed to be you're like you're one finger you know and you're you're uh you're trying to go off by yourself like that's not um there's a way in which we're supposed to work together and even you know I just saw that this this week someone pointed out that in uh first uh I'm sorry Ephesians 3 um when Paul is praying for the church uh he says I that you being rooted and grounded in love may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth and then know the love of Christ there's something about being together with the saints that enables us to comprehend the love of Christ um very similar to I think it's first John 4 12-ish where it's like no one's ever seen God love one another somehow his love is he's made manifest amongst us like somehow he's there um in the church uh there's something about gathering for communion you know First Corinthians 10 there's something about not being divided and you come together and there's this Koinonia that you have with the body and blood of Christ as you have it with the rest of the body and once you separate from that he says that is not even the Lord's Supper anymore once there's these divisions so I I would say I get it there's some people that have hurt you pretty badly and and I'm not excusing that or belittling that I'm just saying don't make things worse on yourself by separating from the very Church from which Christ says this is where you're going to learn love this is where you're going to be completed this is where the spirit Works through you for the greater body so yeah that's good yeah and I've seen it I mean I think one of the things that we've experienced and we are Church is um it's very common that if we're going to really be doing life together we're really going to be connected that people are going to fail us people are going to hurt us and of course there are extreme examples like we were kind of getting at with like maybe big moral failure from somebody that's a major leader but then there's even the nitty-gritty of in life together naturally you're gonna offend me I'm going to offend you um there's going to become conflict and I've seen Jesus that all the all the commands in the New Testament around our one love for one another if we can persevere in those there's green blessing like you're saying but it's so common to just go you know I'm out you know you hurt my feelings or you know I don't like this person and Community is tough in that respect um and it's even can be very hard as a leader when you're trying to In the Flesh maybe trying to please everybody and you know and things can get messy yeah yeah I mean there's I would just I I don't even know how to say it because there have been times in my life where I've just felt like I've just been arrogant like I get it's like this combination part of it is my arrogance and part of it is like this resolve like I am not going to do this in the wrong way so even if if no one follows me I'm going this direction I have to because I see it in the scriptures and that's not a bad thing but there's just this other side that's like arrogant in that or can be arrogant and what is arrogant in me of I know I'm right and so I'm going without you and gosh I don't know because I I want people to grow up I want my children to grow up and go I don't care if all my friends go this Direction I mean right they'll then go with me I I still will follow and I'm gonna do this and yet there's this other humble side that has to say no the scriptures say I am not created to do this by myself I'm a part of the body and so to to find those Godly brothers and sisters and say we've got to figure this out together um you know everyone wants to do the Isaiah here am I send me when New Testament is supposed to be here we are send us that we're not supposed to do this by ourselves so we gotta we've gotta figure that somehow in humility and in strength um and that's it gets complicated that's good well maybe just maybe last word from you on as you and you can close us with anything else as you think about current Church context what's going on in the world today in the church today as you think about leaders anything else you'd want to say leaders in the church what what we're kind of faced with in the church today yeah it's very easy to panic very easy to get discouraged very easy to try to come up with a strategy to fix all of this um I guess I just want to share what the Lord's been emphasizing over and over and over with me the last few months and and that said I I need to have times where I just receive his love where someone was sharing the other day you know you've got Peter who's always thinking about what he was gonna do and I almost you know it's before the spirit indwelt but uh he's like I'll never deny i i i and then you've got John that's just the Beloved it was a I don't know if passive's the right word but he was the object of Christ's affection rather than the subject and my life has been about Peter and this is what I'm going to do for the Lord and and I will never do this and you know my friend pointed out you know Peter wasn't at the cross he denied Jesus John was and he was the Beloved he's the one who just laid there put his head on the chest of Jesus and and I I guess I can get caught up and not saying Peter's a mess you know or anything like that I'm just saying there's different people we need to learn from uh and I think I've I've pursued a lot of Peter and not enough John and looking at his example I mean I I'm just I always try to be like the Apostle Paul I never I don't really think about John and John's the one that wrote those beautiful things in John 13 to 17 about this intimacy with God and how are you gonna be one with him and and has had the Overflow of all of that and he says that you know and Jesus if you love me you will obey my commands and and it's it's that love that compels us and and so I guess for those leaders that are listening uh I think this is something we're gonna struggle with is uh you know you're going to have more of that Peter and that Paul mindset and some of you may have like an Elijah complex like I'm the only one that's got it right you know and it's like slow down enjoy the love of Christ make sure you're a recipient of that and you're so filled up by that and you really believe that you can get so much pleasure says in psalm 16 how at his right hand are Pleasures forever more he leads us down these Paths of of life um enjoy that because if not you'll start doing things out of insecurity out of selfish ambition out of I don't know whatever reason and then your sheep will start doing that and and then you know you you get equally selfish you know ambitious toward cause all these conflicts um for all not chasing the love of Christ but really just receiving and believing like First Corinthians 5 5 says that how the Holy Spirit can actually pour the love of Christ into our hearts is to Crave that and come before God and say just love me right now I mean Know Your Love Like Paul talks about in Ephesians 3.
