[Music] welcome to church history matters come follow me Edition where we are systematically diving into every section of the Doctrine and Covenants throughout the year 2025 we have a lot to talk about today so let's get [Music] into hello Casey here we are again another week in the doctrine in Covenant and I say this every time but I'm Excited but this time it it's because we're meeting one of the seminal figures of early church history this block is Doctrine Covenant uh 6 through n and this is where we meet Oliver cowry like does he get
enough credit for everything that he did uh seriously and and this is a man who is like household name you know uh in church history now it's Joseph Smith Emma Smith then where do you go you know Oliver cowry Martin Harris I mean he's one of the the top Names and we are him today which is exciting he really is and I think you know Oliver is excommunicated in 1838 but he comes back in 1848 a decade later I think if he hadn't you know taken a little walk about his name would be there with
you know Brigham Young and John Taylor and other luminaries of the restoration he'd probably be even more well known than he is right now but as it is this is where he bursts onto the scene of the coming forth The Book of Mormon and makes an incredible contribution right away I mean without Oliver cowry how do we get the Book of Mormon here I don't know Joseph was struggling he'd burned through a few scribes he'd lost some manuscript pages and now once he gets the gift back he's ready to go but he needs a scribe
and it just so happens that when he needed a scribe is when the Scribe was ready and they're going to come together in a pretty awesome way which we get to tell The story today in fact do you just want to like get us into this uh what what uh where should we start with the Oliver calary Story I mean let's start with Section six because these sections the other thing that's great about them is it's kind of like a seminar on Revelation personal revelation because Oliver shows up and then he has to be kind
of mentored into the prophetic Pro process that Joseph Smith has been engaged in since you know 1820 1823 and so these sections are especially valuable in teaching the principles of personal revelation as well so let's start with Section six this is where Oliver um shows up let me give you some [Music] context so Oliver's about uh uh 22 when he meets Joseph Smith he is uh the school teacher in Palmyra so you remember during this time there's a little bit of geographic separation Joseph Smith's family is living in Palmyra which is in Upstate New York
Joseph has taken the plates and moved down to Emma Smith's Hometown Harmony Pennsylvania which is quite a ways away and all of shows up and boards with the Smiths in in Palm so he's living with them what does that mean to board with the Smiths I mean that's a concept that we don't typically do today what does that mean basically he had contracted to be the school teacher in Palmyra that School year and the Smiths agree to take him into their home and take care of him and it's over the course of that school year
which just so happens to coincide with uh Joseph Smith's time of difficulty he l es the manuscript in the summer however he gets the interpreters back but sort of goes into this funk it seems like where he doesn't do a lot of translation from September until April when Oliver shows up and during this time Oliver's back in Palmyra and the Smiths uh are guarded at first they don't really want to talk about it and when Oliver starts to hear from other people in the town about Joseph Smith Jr and the plates and all these wild
stories he's the one who goes to them in fact he he first approaches Joseph Smith's father and meets a little bit of resistance but as the weeks pass the Smiths come to trust Oliver and they open up they share a little bit about uh Joseph and where he was and why people In Palmyra talk about him the way that they do and according to Lucy Max Smith Oliver becomes sort of obsessed with this idea she writes that Oliver became quote so entirely absorbed in the subject of the record that it seemed impossible for him to
think or Converse about anything else so even before he's met Joseph Smith Oliver is focused on this and it seems to kind of capture his imagination and it's during this time there's several sources that indicate That while he's in Palm with the Smiths he has some kind of spiritual prompting to go and act as an assistant or scribe whatever with Joseph Smith for instance uh One Source says he told father mother Smith I've made it the subject of prayer and I firmly believe that it is the will of the Lord that I should go to
visit Joseph down in Pennsylvania and that there is a work for me to do in this thing he told father Smith that it had been put into his heart that he would Have the privilege of writing for Joseph and he said this thought had been working in my very bones in so much that I cannot for a moment get rid of it this is the same time where he made this a matter of like private personal prayer right where he privately cries to the Lord one evening during this time right and he's he's asking God
one-on-one here to let him know the truth of the things he's been hearing from The Smiths and as he did so he felt a really profound Sense of Peace yeah and that's referenced in section six but it may have been something more too um than just this profound sense of Peace in Joseph Smith 1832 history this is how he gives Oliver's backstory Joseph wrote The Lord showed unto Oliver the plates in a vision and also the truth truth of the work therefore he was desirous to come and write for me to translate and so that's
the language that Joseph Smith uses in his 1832 history so it might be More than we anticipate uh though section six makes reference to something that doesn't sound quite as big as that so it's possible maybe this was a vision that happened later on or it's it's a vision that Oliver records or tells Joseph Smith a little bit later but the bottom line is by the end of the school year and school years back then were still like Autumn to Spring um Oliver is ready to go and he makes the journey from Palmyra down to
Harmony Pennsylvania where Joseph Smith is living alongside Samuel Smith Joseph's younger brother they leave at the end of March meanwhile Joseph Smith has been sporadically translating but really having significant struggles maybe it was a crisis of confidence it could have been something as simple as he didn't have a lot of paper or anything like that but he's asking for a scribe Joseph records that on April 2nd he prayed for the Lord to send the Scribe as he was Previously promised would happen and was informed that one would soon be forthcoming and then 3 days later
on April 5th that's the date that um Oliver gives in an 1834 history Oliver arrives with his with Joseph's brother Samuel to his home and tells him why he's come and Joseph Smith is gratified basically like oh okay and it seems like they hit it off and you know for the next few years Joseph and Oliver butcher Sundance you know they're the twin Heroes of the Restoration the first and second Elder of the church they're called in section 20 because he gets there on the 5th and on the 7th according to Oliver they start translating
and we're going to go into more depth with this with a guest that we're having on but they get the whole book of Mormon as we know it translated in about three months time so April May and June they they translate the entire Book of Mormon as we're now currently aware of it they begin on April 7th and they're done by end of June we don't know the exact date but that fact becomes more and more profound the more and more we get into the complexity of the Book of Mormon itself and yeah I'm excited
we're going to have a a guest on it should be two days after this video releases we will have a guest uh should we announce who it is Casey yeah it's gonna be Jack Welsh yeah I can't believe our our good friend Jack Welsh is going to take the time to be with us of scripture Central he is one of the experts I think he's the world's expert on the timing of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon I don't know anyone who's done richer deeper scholarship than our friend Jack Welch so we look
forward to that look for that video in two days time from the release of this video and so I mean that's really exciting because like you said he has done some incredible scholarship on This and this is when we say Miracles still happen in our day the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is a miracle when you start to look look at the timing of how fast it happened it happens fast so these are our sections on translation and probably the best sources in the doctrine covidence to understand the process of translation which is
a huge overlap with the process of Revelation and there's a lot here we can learn for instance DNC 6 we don't know the the Precise date but it's probably right around the time that Oliver shows up because the language in DNC 6 is that of calling someone to the work and if they show up on the 5th and then by the 7th they're translating I would guess somewhere in that window is where Doctrine Covenant six is is received couple days after they've started the work it sounds like right like not too long into it yeah
not too long into it because the language here is that of a Calling like Oliver you're on the team now here's what I need you to do uh let's get to it so there's the context let's get into the [Music] content a couple days of gone by at least because some of the content of section 6 references Oliver having seen Joseph do some translations so it looks like he's seen a little bit of this right and so whatever exactly his question was we're not sure but it does Seem to be responding to some lingering questions
doubts and fears that Oliver had been quietly harboring but had not yet expressed to Joseph Smith so yeah let's let's dive in now and check out what the Lord says to Oliver so section six opens with a a biblically drenched word picture in the first five verses similar to DNC 4 as we talked about in a previous episode drawing on phrases from the books of Isaiah Hebrews John Revelation Matthew and again framing This season in time as on the brink of the coming forth of God's marvelous work which itself was primed to bring about an
abundant Harvest of souls through those who are willing to help in the reaping and so like you said Oliver is being called to the work here in the first five verses then starting in verse 6 the Lord begins to directly address some of Oliver's unspoken questions some of his doubts some of his fears the Lord first directs Oliver to keep his Commandments and to seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion verse 6 counsel given perhaps in response to an unexpressed question about God's Will and priorities for Oliver cry's life and then next
the Lord directs Oliver to seek not for riches but for the wisdom of God and is told that he that hath eternal life is Rich perhaps responding to a lingering fear of Olivers that maybe getting too involv with Joseph Smith might result in a lack of Professional and financial success we're not sure exactly why the Lord goes here I'm spitballing here but perhaps and then on this theme the Lord assures Oliver that his righteous desires will be granted and if he desires he will be the means of doing much good in this generation and that
for declaring repentance and assisting in this latterday work he you will be justly compensated by the Lord's blessing and then we go to verses 10- 24 okay see so In verses 10- 24 we sense that Oliver was inclined to doubt his own spiritual experiences and Gifts well and I mean in Context too um Oliver is is more well educated than Joseph Smith by quite a bit right and so this educated person who's a school teacher coming to this uneducated farmer who has these prophetic gifts gifts may have been a barrier for Oliver like there are
some indications that Oliver sort of struggled with you know thinking I'm Intellectually Superior to this guy I'm more educated than he is yeah so he not only had doubts perhaps about his own spiritual experiences but he's also doubting to some degree the authenticity of Joseph Smith's translation ability we could say and his methodology so on the one hand could Oliver cowry trust his own feelings and experiences on the other hand could he trust the validity of what he was seeing this less educated 23-year-old Joseph Smith do day after Day as he translated by looking at
the nephite interpreters placed at the bottom of his hat and then dictating to Oliver hour after hour while the plates lay covered nearby okay that's the scene we got to put in our heads is that Joseph is looking at the sear stones and Oliver is across the table dictating words that Joseph says while he's just looking at the stones you can see how maybe Oliver is thinking is this legit is this authentic is this actually the Voice and the mind and the will of God this is unprecedent there's nothing quite like this there's no translation
before or since that I've ever heard of and I'm sure that Oliver cowy had ever heard of that operates like this in verses 10 through1 15 the Lord reassures Oliver that he can trust his own spiritual Impressions that he indeed has a gift a sacred gift himself of Revelation and that by righteously exercising this gift God's Mysteries Will be made known to him people will be convinced of the error of their ways God says and if he Oliver holds out faithful to the end he will receive God's greatest gift which is the gift of Salvation
so a lot of reassurance here for Oliver so then to to help Oliver recognize the operations of his own kind of budding revelatory gift the Lord reminds him that as often as he has inquired of God he's received instructions from God's spirit like look At verse 15 where the Lord says behold thou knowest that thou Hast inquired of me and I did Enlighten thy mind and now I tell thee these things that thou mayest know that thou Hast been enlightened by the spirit of truth that's interesting right so the Lord is letting him know like
the feelings you've had and the the enlightenment in your mind that's how my spirit works this is the spirit of Truth and and then the Lord goes on to say in Verse 16 and 17 that the fact that he had just told Oliver details about the thoughts and intents of his heart which nobody else but he and God Alone knew is a witness that the words Oliver has been writing from Joseph's dictation are true the Lord says I tell thee these things as a witness unto thee that the words or the work which thou Hast
been writing are true in other words Oliver should consider that both the words of the Revelation to Oliver that he's receiving At this time and the words of the Book of Mormon translation are coming from the same young Seer looking at the same sear Stones this is how the Lord is authenticating to Oliver calary that this gift you're watching Joseph Smith use is true otherwise how could I have just told you something that only you and me know and Joseph does not uh which is kind of a cool uh move there honestly anything you want
to say about that just that this is instructive in Revelation 2 Right the Lord's telling all of things that only the two of them know this is personal revelation and even though this is canonized in the scriptures which means it's meant for the whole church we need to recognize that these early Revelations before there is a church are really personal and I think another big lesson that you can pull from these verses let me let me quote verses 22 and 23 uh verely verily I say unto you if you desire a further witness cast your
Mind upon the night that you Cried unto me in your heart that you might know concerning the truth of these things did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter what greater witness can you have than from God I wonder if you know part of the lesson here too is you have to learn to recognize Revelation when it comes because the whole point of this Revelation is to tell Oliver he's been called to the work and the Lord is Basically saying I already gave you an answer to this do you remember what I
spoke peace to your mind but Oliver was at the point to where he just didn't quite know you know what Revelation was like or what to expect and sometimes the first lesson that we have to learn or we have to teach people is to say hey here's some ways that God can speak to you it's not always going to be a pillar of light or an Angelic being it could be something as simple and as sweet as just Feeling peace with yourself yeah and this did strike a chord with Oliver we know that shortly after
this revelation was received Oliver actually writes a letter to his friend David Whitmer who lived up in fayet New York David recounted in his own history he said soon after Oliver's arrival in harmony he wrote to me and said that Joseph had inquired of the Lord concerning him and had told him secrets of his life that he knew could not be known to any person But himself in any other way than by Revelation from the almighty so yeah Oliver was was convinced by this and I think it's cool that the Lord rather than just saying
hey trust Joseph's translating gifts okay going forward the Lord is actually saying you've had Revelation yourself Oliver think about how I enlightened your mind when you've inquired of me you know how you were like so eager to come and meet Joseph Smith and you felt called to come and Scribe for him you kept telling father and mother Smith about that that was me remember that night when you prayed to know the truth of these things and you felt profound peace that was me that's how it works you too have a gift of Revelation and you
can learn to rely on it and that's super cool actually yeah and it it again it speaks to that principle of sometimes people have to be taught what Revelation looks like it's not always what they're expecting that Might be lesson one if this these sections are kind of a seminar on how Revelation works and like the most natural thing in the world is to doubt whether or not that was really Revelation isn't that like the most common question we ask is like was that really Revelation or not Oliver is squarely in that camp right he's
like ah I don't know can I fully trust that and the Lord says yeah you can trust that you have a gift Oliver now one more Thing before we uh talk about Oliver being invited to translate which is a super cool part of this revelation we should go back to verses 18 and 19 for just a second because clearly Oliver has noticed legitimate shortcomings maybe even faults and Joseph Smith Joseph's 23 Oliver's 22 Oliver's kind of this like you said more educated kid probably recognizing Joseph's shortcomings here but the Lord says this to him look
at this he says that he wants him to quote Vers 18 stand by my servant Joseph Faithfully in whatsoever circumstances he may be for the word's sake and then he invites him in verse 19 to admonish him in his faults and also receive admonition of him be patient be sober be temperate have patience and then faith hope and charity and so that that's that's pretty cool right that the the Lord is saying it's okay if you see faults in Joseph like Point him out in a spirit of faith hope and charity and Then receive that
admonition from Joseph in that same Spirit you don't have to pretend Oliver like you're not seeing faults you're going to see faults in Joseph but that's all right and that's a drum I don't think we want to beat too much we spent um a lot of last week talking about how oh the opening Revelations of the doctor covenants are all about how Joseph Smith is flawed but I guess I guess that's the process of Revelation 2 is to understand That it comes through flawed imperfect people sometimes so that's part of our seminar also yeah Oliver
should be careful in fact the next few verses up to verse 21 the Lord talks about the light shining in the darkness I am the light that shines in the darkness and the Darkness comprehended it not I think it's interesting he brings that up and that's a reference from The Book of John but bringing that reference up in this context suggests that Oliver should be Careful many people missed the Divinity of Jesus Christ because Christ was a mortal he was a mortal being during his life a lot of people missed him and so I I
think the Lord is saying here in in verse 21 that all of our be careful not to miss the Divinity of what is happening right before his eyes simply because it's being mediated by a flawed young sear who's using sear stones that shine in darkness at the bottom of Joseph Smith's hat sometimes big Divine Things happen in seemingly mundane or common ways you know uh Joseph Smith will bring up later that Jesus the god of the universe was born in like a stable and that that if you if you want to dis missed Jesus because
of some of the swaddling cloth the Mortal swaddling cloth that uh that enwrapped him uh you're going to you're going to miss the greatest opportunity of your life and the same thing is true about the restoration like don't miss the Profundity and and the Divinity of the restoration because of all the swaddling cloth because of all the humanity that you're going to see here and so I think verse 21's pretty profound that way okay so then comes the invitation not only is Oliver able to receive his own personal revelation in terms of guidance for his
life and have a confirmation that Joseph Smith is receiving Revelation but the Lord surprisingly actually invites Oliver to go ahead and try the work of Translation himself this is pretty cool uh assuring him in verses 25- 27 that if he desires it the Lord will enhance Oliver's current revelatory gifts to enable him to assist more directly in bringing forth these ancient uh quote records which contain much of my gospel which have been kept back because of the wickedness of the people and quote those parts of my scriptures which have been hidden because of iniquity it's
like Oliver can like actually help in Translation which is wild and that's going to lead to sections 8 and N book Mark that for a second but in verse 28 the Lord then speaks to both Oliver and Joseph and gives them what he calls quote the keys of this gift which shall bring to light this ministry which is probably a reference to the spiritual Keys necessary to bring forth The Book of Mormon no doubt surrounding Revelation right the Lord then assures them that whether or not these words of Christ that are being brought forth by
these two young seers is rejected or accepted by those of that generation Joseph and Oliver will be blessed for their efforts and then the Lord drops this even the Lord says somberly if they do unto you what was done unto me in other words even if you are martyred like I was you'll still be blessed to dwell with me in glory which is super interesting right because we know that Oliver calary does not get martyred with Joseph Smith it was Joseph and his brother but section 124 says that hyam Smith replaced Oliver cowry I mean
that connection's been drawn before that uh potentially if Oliver cry did not leave like you mentioned in 1838 he'll be excommunicated from the church he'll come back in 1848 Joseph and his brother ham are martyred in 1844 and I've often wondered because of this verse if if maybe it ought not to have been uh Joseph and Oliver you're not on your own there because you know no less a figure than Joseph Fielding Smith makes that argument in doctrines of salvation he says if everything would have stayed on course Oliver would have been the person in
in Carthage Jail not hyam yeah interesting so let's conclude the the content here and then we'll jump over to some controversies but I love that uh as the Lord concludes here he assures both Oliver and Joseph that he's in their Midst that they should not fear to do good because they will reap what they sow and will ultimately Prevail over Earth and hell I love that if they're buil built on the rock of Christ and he assures them that though he's aware of their flaws he does not condemn them and gosh I don't know how
often we need to hear that Casey as as humans but uh what reassurance that is right I know of your flaws and I don't condemn you because of them in fact he goes on to say look unto Me in every thought doubt not fear not because of your flaws like look unto me and then in a final gesture intended I think to help both young revelators understand like why they have no need to doubt or fear the lord invites them to consider the sacred emblems of his own triumph over Earth and Hell where he says
behold the wounds which pierced my side and also the prince of the nails in my hands and feet like in spite of the worst that man could do to you including Inflicting death he's already mentioned to them the Lord has been Victorious over all and so he is thereby I think powerfully affirming that Victory is certain for Joseph and Oliver if they will be faithful to the resurrected Christ don't rely on their own strength but they can look unto him in every thought doubt not fear not be faithful to him keep his Commandments and under
those conditions uh Victory is certain so [Music] powerful well let's talk controversies in section six then and some of these we're going to deal with relatively quickly because they kind of carry throughout the sections but um what what would you say is controversial in in section six well we mentioned in passing that Joseph Smith is translating by looking at rocks he's looking at rocks in the bottom of his hat ay we talked a couple Weeks ago about this folk magic overlay that exists in the early restoration that that's the world that Joseph Smith grew up
in it seems like Oliver cry because he's a little bit more educated is probably more of a man of the Age of Enlightenment we do find out however later on that he does have you know some of these magical worldview Tendencies as well but might be some of the territory that Oliver is negotiating here too is like hey I'm i' I've been taught and Raised and educated now you want me to expect Revelation a sacred document to be revealed through the use of these Stones uh which which could have been disconcerting for Oliver a little
bit I like that you brought up the Age of Enlightenment because it's interesting how Joseph Smith's time like here we are in the 18 what are we at 1829 this is just something like the border of the age of enchantment versus The Age of Enlightenment it's kind of there's a Tension still between these two worlds this is pre germ Theory still Casey this is still like there's a lot we don't have electricity yet on Earth in 1829 there's a lot of beliefs in terms of like the age of Enchantment Where a lot of the world
is kind of magical in some ways and like you said you mentioned that a few weeks ago the magical worldview and so there's also those that are currently starting to look upon the these disenchanted worldview with some Skepticism as they're learning more and more more about how the world works that would cast this in some sort of a I think a controversial light and obviously Us in the age in which we live we have some serious doubts we Harbor doubts about people being able to translate books by looking at rocks what do we want to
say about this well I mean part of the work of history is to contextualize right and stuff like sear stones and scrying and stuff like that Does seem objectively strange to us in our time but we've got to do the work a little bit to ask was it Str range in Joseph Smith's time and in the cultural context he existed in and it seems like it was one of those things that um to some people was an affirmation that the work was divine the Whitmer family for instance who are going to come into the story
a little bit later on said that they doubted Joseph when he wasn't using a searstone that that was a sign that it Was the real deal so I again we've got to do the work to kind of go back in time that we'll use this phrase a lot to the past is a different country and understand the cultural environment that they lived in and not just look at it from the culture environment that we live in so it's interesting to note that this idea that people would like Channel divine power through special Stones like that
concept was not foreign to Joseph Smith like he had Grown Up in a New England subculture where many people including his own father believe that Divine knowledge could be revealed through objects like rods Stones uh similar to what had been done in biblical times and that belief seems to have been carried over from England where between like the 1600s and the 1800s there were like people in communities called scryers or seers and they would often use stones to find like hidden or lost objects or to even see The future we see just little remnants of
it today in like kind of uh mythology culture like Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone oh a sorcerer Stone a stone that a sorcerer used oh yeah which uh you know is like really interesting in fact it's super super interesting to think that you know Isaac Newton kind of the father of the Age of Enlightenment in some ways actually used a sear Stone do you know that Casey I was vaguely Aware Isaac Newton used searstone anyway yes so it's a totally different world and this time period Joseph is in is a bridge time period between
the age of Enchantment and the Age of Enlightenment and so when Moroni showed up and said uh there are two stones that are included with the plates and possession and use of these stones constituted seers in ancient times and these stones have been prepared for the purpose of translating the book I I don't think Joseph blinked And I I think he was like that makes sense you know there are objects included with the plates that can be used to translate awesome and it's just an example of the Lord speaking to Joseph Smith in his cultural
context and using the world that he lives in like the Lord does speak unto us according to our own language according to our own understanding that's in DNC one this is part of Joseph Smith's cultural language but for for Oliver cowry it does seem Like based on what we know about Section 8 he at least is familiar with this but it may have taken a little time to reintroduce himself into this world of folk magic I guess yeah and today like the way that my en Enlightenment era brain tries to make sense of this Casey
uh is to say listen we have really cool technology like there's this app where you can literally like just open up the camera I was in Greece and I was looking at a menu that was all in Greek and I Got my phone and I put it up like look through the camera and I I put the menu on my camera and it instantly translated the whole menu into English and it has all these different languages you can do you can just like put it up against any language and it translates it instantly and you
can see on your screen what it says uh that's pretty cool technology Casey for translation my mind goes like this it's like why couldn't God like use rocks to do that And like God knows and is aware of a technology that I think would still blow our minds so we can actually do this now okay see we can like as humans we can get glass or our iPhones and we can put it over a language that we don't know and we can see it in the language that we do know and if humans can do
that now like why you know I mean God who's infinitely more powerful than us and has much more capacity why why could he not help Joseph through rocks uh do that and So so that's what my like age of of Enlightenment mind does today I'm like okay God was seeding some pretty cool technology into those stones and it worked obviously because we have the book I don't know what do you what do you do with that with your mind of you're a child of the Enlightenment what do you do with that uh I quote the
late Arthur C Clark um and full admission I first heard this in the movie Thor that any technology sufficiently advanced Would be indistinguishable from Magic and so I mean God understands all science and my age of enlightenment mind tells me that if there's a Supreme Being he knows how everything works I I'm guessing that a person B brought from the age of Enchantment would look at something like a cellphone and think that it was magical because he couldn't comprehend the principles so I'm okay saying we're dealing with someone who understanding is far more advanced than
Ours is yeah that satisfies My Age of Enlightenment [Music] mind all right let's get into consequences which I think the conse quence here is Oliver is on board this Revelation is not only directly and lovingly addressing Oliver's questions and his doubts and his fears but it's inviting him to become part of the word Lord's work by serving as a scribe and you're going to work with flawed people Oliver the Lord also addresses a number of Oliver's flaws but through these flawed people the Lord can do great things the Revelation kind of solidifies Oliver's witness to
Joseph's prophetic calling sets him on a path to contribute in a huge hug way for the next several years in the church and assures him that this is important and I'm going to help you accomplish this as well so this is Oliver being drafted into the great [Music] Cause okay well let's transition now over to DNC 7 so in the midst of translation here we get an interesting conversation between Joseph and Oliver actually a little bit of a controversy between them themselves do you want to tell us about that I I want to point out
when you read DNC 6 8 and N section 7 is going to feel like a weird tangent the text itself when you just start reading it you're going to basically say what like this this is coming out of left Field but I would say don't skip section seven it's an important part of understanding the translation process because not only are Joseph and Oliver translating they're learning section s seems to indicate they were like debating And discussing scripture you know I'd like to think that Joseph and Oliver would host a pretty interesting podcast if they had
had the technology so they start translating and the introduction that's given here is uh Joseph writes during the month of April I continued to translate and Oliver to write with little cation during which time we received several Revelations a difference of opinion arose between us about the account of John the Apostle mentioned in the New Testament whether he died or whether he continued and this is one of those passages in the New Testament that you can puzzle over till your puzzlers or where um John is talking to Jesus in fact it's it's John And Peter
speaking to Jesus right at the end of the Gospel of John and it's sort of ambiguous as to what he says Where in the account Jesus speaks to Peter about John and says if I will that he tar till I come what is that to thee and Jesus doesn't really confirm or deny that John will in fact live till the second coming of the savior so there's differences of opinion what was it in the Book of Mormon that sparked this question there's several things that could have Sparked this so um on the one hand U
there's references in the Book of Mormon to people being taken up people like being taken up and not dying like the earliest one is Alma 45: 19 where it mentions just offand that this is what happened to Moses which is kind of a huge Revelation and it mentions it in the context of saying that Alma the younger The Book of Mormon Prophet was taken up by the spirit or buried by the hand of the Lord that's in Alma 45: 19 So we don't know exactly where they were transing but that might have sparked like the
thought it's mentioned in third Nei 28 also too it just seems like they wouldn't have been that far along at this point but we could be wrong because section 13 is going to come from translating third Nei like 11 right they're going to start asking about Authority and power to bapti yeah it doesn't seem like they've covered third Nephi 28 yet with the three Nephites and So it seems like they wouldn't be that far along but we could be wrong we we don't we don't know the exact date here but um we do know that
their argument they basically mutually agree to to settle like the same way when you and I debate Scott you know we'll say well let's go to the Internet let's harness the awesome power of the online community they go to the Yurman Thum so they basically say yeah let's let's ask the Lord and through the medium of the Yurman Thum they get Doctrine Covenant 7 which again has this kind of interesting language surrounding it the first printing in this Revelation it's in the book of Commandments just mentions that it was translated from parchment written and hit
up by John the Beloved himself meaning probably that they looked into the um instruments that they're using and they see the parchment there and that's where they get the answer from they they don't ever mention they have a Physical parchment so they must have seen it in the uran thumb so they look into the Y Thum probably Joseph probably not both of them but they Joseph looks into the Y Thum with this question in mind about John the Beloved and he sees a parchment written by John the Beloved but that parchment itself would not be
written in English that would be probably Greek so then he sees a translation of a parchment that John wrote is that what we understand from This again that's all we have to go off of but it is interesting that you know it's it's putting forth the idea here that the instruments they're using can not only translate physical medium that they have like the plates but that it can present to them texts and and objects that they don't physically have which could be interesting when we're talking about Joseph Smith's conception of what translation means that it
was not translation in the way we think of It that it's Revelation to add another wrinkle to this too it shows up first in the book of Commandments which is published in 1833 then when it's published again in 1835 in the first edition of the doctrine Covenant there's added material that's put into this as well most likely this is an inspired clarification or an interpolation that's added by the it drawn in part from related scripture but it does kind of show another thing about the way Joseph Must see scripture which is he doesn't see it
as carved into Granite he sees it as malleable and changeable based on his prophetic calling which is kind of an a valuable Insight also to understand his [Music] mindset well let's look at the text then uh let's let's dive in here the text of DNC 7 begins actually in the first person in language of John himself recounting his dialogue with the Lord and then verses 2 and three decisively Cut through this centuries old ambiguity Casey here it comes we learn with great clarity that John was indeed given quote power over death and he was promised
by the Lord that he would T until I come in my glory booya so DNC 7 establishes once and for all he did not die [Music] but that raises another question which is a lot of times our simplified Narrative of the apostasy is just all the apostles died and therefore the Priesthood was taken from the Earth but if John didn't die then the priesthood was never fully taken from the earth and we would have already had to deal with this because the Book of Mormon establishes that three of the Nephi disciples did not die either
so why didn't these guys get together and call new Apostles and why was there a whole apostasy basically and like I said it's confirmed in the Book of Mormon in fourth Nephi and in Mormon 8 Mormon and Moroni both confirmed that the three Nephites were still around in their day hundreds of years later so why don't these guys just reorganize the church why wait until 1820 I guess would be the controversy right it's a great question and like you said it is it is attacking that kind of simplified assumption about the apost and we should
note too that other than Doctrine covidence 86 I don't know if the Savior himself ever describes the Apostasy as just the apostles died in section 86 he says the apostles fell asleep and then describes a narrative but in section one when he describes the apostasy doesn't mention prophets and apostles he me mentions idolatry and changing the ordinances and everything like that he doesn't say the apostles dying was a problem because it feels like he can call new Apostles yeah 100% And so there must be more going on Here's a thought from Elder Joseph fing Smith
he says that even in the days of apostasy the great apostasy the Lord never surrendered this Earth and permitted Satan to have complete control even when the Great apostasy occurred following the death of the savior's Apostles Our Father in Heaven held control and had duly authorized servants on the earth to direct his work and to check to some extent at least the ravages and Corruption of the evil Powers these servants were not permitted To organize the church nor to officiate in the ordinances of the Gospel but they did check the advances of evil as far
as the Lord deemed it necessary that's one interesting perspective on it right that they were kind of here to keep Satan in check and keep evil at a manageable level of in some way yeah that that phrase check the advances of evil kind of pequs my curiosity I'd love to know the behind the-scenes story of what was going on there this is from uh 1997 talk By Henry beiring he said there seems to be no end to the savior's desire to leave lead us to safety and there is constancy in the ways he shows us
the path he calls by more than one means so that we'll reach those willing to accept it and those means always include sending the message by the mouths of His prophets whatever the people have and I think here's the key word qualified to have the prophets of God among them those authorized servants are always Charged with warning the people and telling them the way to safety and so seems like president iring is saying is that prophets and them acting in open prophetic ways isn't necessarily a right it's a privilege that people qualify for and that
if people are just going to reject the prophets and murder them that God can withdraw the prophets and that the apostasy was more function of that that John and the three disciples were told to withdraw publicly and wait until Conditions were a little bit better one day the story of John and the three Nephites over the last 2,000 years is going to be told and I'm just so curious and so interested to see what kind of fascinating Tales they have to tell and what they've been up to for the last 2,000 especially like you said
when they withdrew what does that mean uh if they're withdrawing from society what are they doing yeah and how are they checking the advances of Satan too like I want to know that story there's more to come with John there are some occasions in our history where appearances of John have been recorded okay you see uh the most I think authoritative one that we can take to the bank is when he appeared with Peter and James to confer the apostleship and the Keys of the Kingdom on Joseph and Oliver cry right it was Peter James
and John yeah there's a couple others too though and I want to credit uh Frank Jud And Terry zinc they did a a great article you can find for free that talks about the appearances of John during the restoration period I'm just going to mention a couple here in June 1832 John Whitmer who was the historian of the church recorded that quote the spirit of the Lord fell upon on Joseph Smith in an unusual manner and prophesied that John the Revelator was then among the 10 tribes of Israel so Joseph Smith prophesies that John the
revelators Among the 12 tribes of Israel Oliver be Huntington another early latterday Saint uh said that while Zion's Camp was going on they woke up one morning they saw Joseph Smith uh standing a ways off talking to a man he came back and told them that the man was John the Beloved and that he was preparing the 10 tribes for their return turn and then one more from heby Kimble heby Kimble reported that John appeared in the Kirtland Temple in 1836 writing that quote the Beloved disciple John was seen in our midst by the Prophet
Joseph Oliver cowry and others so he's been in the temple and it it makes sense that he would be in and out of all these things but it seems like he still wasn't given a prominent public leadership role within the church probably because that would have major consequences for the Plan of Salvation if everybody knew was this guy that didn't die he was 2,000 years old that Would be kind of a distraction I guess from the work of the restoration [Music] fascinating all right let's talk about the consequences aftermath of DNC 7 I think we
can say that the contributions of section 7 go beyond just answering that centuries old question about Jon's living status but also demonstrating how later Revelation can build upon and clarify previous Revelation but this section of also does three other things Like first as a translation of a missing johannine parchment this section also confirms what the Lord had recently told Oliver and Joseph just in DNC 6 that there were ancient records and scriptures which were kept back and hidden because of iniquity this is a cool example of that section seven is uh second it also confirms
that Peter James and John were actually given vital Keys which would play an important role prior to Jesus's Second Coming a fact which Would soon be confirmed to Joseph and Oliver when Peter James and John appear to them and confer these very Keys upon their heads in fact I think we're just like maybe a month or two out actually from that happening and so it's kind of cool that they had section s happen first and then they met John not but a month or two later which is super cool okay so then the third thing
that this section does is it it basically underscores the fact and this Is a cool point that the Lord truly is a granter of righteous desires as long as those desires are aligned with his will the Lord seems to be willing to Grant according to our desires although Peter and John receive very different blessings from the Lord as to their lifespans they both receive from the Lord according to their desires and both the Lord says we'll have joy therein that's something interesting to contemplate as well yeah so this one Isn't as out as left field
as it feels it's still in this sequence of this seminar I'm going to call it of section six to section n on personal revelation if you ask for things the Lord is more than willing to grant them and it also Al brings up this idea that's going to show up in Section 8 again that the translation of the Book of Mormon isn't the end of the job that there's going to be multiple translation projects that will happen as part of the restoration This is really just the beginning which is a great transition to Section [Music]
8 and really Section 8 and N need to kind of go together they're really two parts of the same story aren't they yeah they have pretty much the same sort of context that they're given is it fair to say that the context for section 9 is Section 8 can we say that yeah and you should never you know study these sections on their own they belong Together they're really part of the same story so here's the context okay we mentioned several times they start translating on 7th of April 1829 and as they're translating sometime into
the translation efforts we're not sure exactly when that they get Section six which gives Oliver it it says among other things that he would be granted to the gift to translate even as my servant Joseph and it appears that Oliver became really anxious and wanted to do what Joseph Smith was doing he wanted to have the power to translate this is what Joseph Smith's history says Oliver cry became exceedingly anxious to have the power to translate bestowed upon him as promised and so Oliver is not going off the reservation here the his earlier Revelation had
said that he would get this power and Joseph Smith also doesn't seem to be offended by Oliver asking to do this either because his response isn't no it's my job to translate his Response is why don't we ask the Lord and see what he has to say and that's where Section 8 is received just an answer to that question can Oliver translate and then section N9 comes after it seems he's not able to [Music] translate okay very good so let me drop into the the content here of Section 8 and what does it say well
this gets really fun in Section 8 here Oliver is told by the Lord that he has two related Gifts both of which are relevant to his desires to translate the first gift the Lord calls the spirit of Revelation and the second he calls the gift of Aaron now the way this first gift of the spirit of Revelation works the Lord explains is that if Oliver will ask in faith with an honest heart believing that he shall receive he will be given a knowledge concerning the Engravings of ancient scriptural records which were referenced previously back in
DNC 6 ver 26 and 27 and this knowledge will be given by the Lord in Oliver's mind and in his heart by the Holy Ghost think these are very familiar passages to latterday Saints we like to quote verse 2 and three that Oliver would know in his mind and in his heart by the Holy Ghost which will come and dwell in his heart this the Lord explains is the spirit of Revelation and then he further explains that this gift will not only be useful in helping Oliver gain knowledge Of ancient records but also in delivering
him out of the hands of his enemies who would otherwise slay him which makes sense of the next phrase where he says it's the same spirit that led the prophet Moses to deliver the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground right precisely a moment of Revelation that came when enemies were trying to destroy Moses and his people in other words the spirit of Revelation seems to have broad Application here this can help you in times of exigency when your life is in danger or it can also help you in translating ancient records
Oliver this is a gift with Broad application and we drop down in verses 6- 11 where the Lord instructs Oliver regarding this second related gift well verses 6 and seven in our current text referred to as the gift of Aaron what's interesting here is that the phrase the Lord used in verse 6 in the earliest manuscript of this Revelation was catch this the gift of working with the Sprout is is he a gardener like what does this mean okay let's keep going and in verse 7 he calls it this thing of nature then later on
as Sydney Rigden Was preparing this manuscript for the 1833 printing he actually crosses out the word sprout in verse 6 and thing of nature in verse 7 and he writes rod above both of them so the gift of working with the rod then in the 1835 printing of this Revelation Joseph changed both phrases to gift of Aaron as they now appear in Section 8 which is really interesting and maybe we could pause right there and introduce our very first controversy of Section 8 [Music] you have led us to a controversy which is yeah what let's
address this gift of working with the Sprout so what's going on here why change the gift of working with the Sprout and this thing of nature to the gift of working with the rod and This Rod to the now current phrase the gift of Aaron we've talked about this a little bit earlier but we want to hearken back to the idea that in the 1820s when this Revelation was receiv received was given in 1829 some in society were believed to have the spiritual gift of working with divining rods what's a divining Rod okay so a
divining Rod has to do with this folk magic overlay we've talked about a little bit when we talked about Joseph's Misser stones and money digging and all that kind of stuff divining rods could be rods made of green flexible shoots or rods cut from Hazel peach or cherry trees and Ed to these rods dated back centuries and were typically used by those who had this gift to find water and minerals in the ground and it's an interesting thing when when I teach this and bring it up in class usually I have a couple students that
say yeah you know I know this guy who worked with a Divining Rod or my dad worked with a divining Rod water witching right is that what people call it today water witching yeah but I mean the word witching kind of carries the wrong connotation well the Vining Rod also isn't too far off yeah yeah I mean they they didn't they didn't think of it as a cult from what we can see like and sometimes today we might associate it with that especially words like witching they saw it as aligned with Christianity And that it
wasn't contrary to the scriptures in fact it was evidence of God's Divine H that's why i' use the word divining Rod before what did you say witching wand or something like that water water witching is what I've heard it called what's crazy is that obviously Oliver had used such divining rods in the past so it's interesting what the Lord is calling here like the gift of working with the Sprout could be connected with this gift of Revelation The Lord doesn't seem to be like saying like that's weird like don't do don't do that alliv her
like he seems to be saying like that's legit you have a gift the gift of working with the Sprout this thing of nature that you hold in your hands it too is an object of Revelation and maybe could be used in the process of translating The Book of Mormon yeah and it it might even be what the Lord was making reference to in section 6 in section 6:1 the Lord says if thou Wilt inquire thou shalt know Mysteries which are great and marvelous therefore Thou shalt exercise thy gift that thou mayest find out mysteries in
verse 12 make not thy gift known unto any sa it be those who are of thy faith trifle not with sacred thing he could be referring to this here or it could be a different gift the gift of personal revelation but this again the the Lord says in section one I speak unto men into their own understanding And in their own language he could be talking in the cultural language that Joseph and Oliver are familiar with but in the 1830s when the book of Commandments and the doctrine comments were published there's kind of this increasing
hostility towards Supernatural acts like this and they're moving into a broader Community outside of this New England setting that they grow up in and so things like sear stones and rods were increasingly Suspect uh as part of the spread of the Enlightenment or scientific empiricism or things like that this might explain why Joseph recognizing that this might have made sense in their cultural context but might not make sense for others decided to change uh the reading here so you got Sydney Rigden who comes from a couple hundred miles away who makes a change and then
you've got Joseph Smith who just changes it to the more biblical idea of a gift of Aaron Which really is what Oliver does like in he's compared to being Aaron to Joseph's Moses several other places in the doctrine covenants and I want to point out here he he doesn't like criticize or devalue Oliver's gift he legitimizes it by reminding him that he already told him many things through it and assuring him that it operates by God's power and it's a gift from him that God has given to him and he even tells him not to
trifle with the gift but to use it Righteously it's a way of asking God for knowledge specifically to learn the mysteries of God and to translate ancient records and all this the Lord tells Oliver will be done according to his faith so that's so interesting that it seems like the Lord is hinting here that Oliver could use that gift to translate The Book of Mormon it's already interesting enough especially to us Age of Enlightenment people to think about Joseph looking at rocks in the Bottom of his hat but you and I talked about how the
way we make sense of that today is we have cell phones and things can be sent through glass and that's fine like messages can be sent God's probably just using advanced technology but using a rod using like a a water witching Rod now we don't know for sure that he tried to do it with the water witching Rod but the Lord seems to be suggesting here that yeah if you can Channel Revelation through that Objective power then try to use that to translate I also kind of think that the Lord is trying to basically say
to him like Revelation can come a lot of different ways heart and mind and Rod and so on and so forth as a way of basically saying to Oliver which is something I think we all need to learn keep your mind open as to how the answers can come sometimes we get locked into to hear hearing a still Small Voice or seeing a vision or getting a burning In the bosom which is going to be mentioned in one of these sections but those are just some of the ways the Revelation can come and it might
be different from person to person yeah that's a good point we should stay open to all the ways that God can communicate and also not try to judge people that live outside of our cultural context like I said the question to ask here isn't is this weird to us it's would it have been weird to Joseph and Oliver and It seems like no like the these are very casual references but as they become more Cosmopolitan I guess you'd say they started to realize oh this could be confusing for people that don't come from the same
background as us so I think it was a smart change to make but I'm okay with the original text the way it was too I mean I think it's fine so don't keep us in suspense what happens like is Oliver able to translate [Music] Or well from the historical record it's clear that Oliver felt encouraged by dn8 and he did in fact attempt to translate The Book of Mormon when his efforts to do so ultimately failed however Oliver reverted back to his original position as scribe and Joseph as translator shortly thereafter after he goes back
to scribing according to Joseph A disappointed quote Oliver was desirous to know the reason why he could not translate and so Joseph inquires of the Lord and section n comes right on the heels of this [Music] and the Lord begins that Revelation pretty gently admonishing Oliver to have patience he was not to attempt to translate anymore from The Book of Mormon but to continue to scribe for the time being with the Lord's assurance that he would have later opportunities to hone his gift since there were other records that he would be empowered to Assist to
translate and by other records the Lord might be referencing such future translation projects as the Bible revision which would get underway in just over a year from this time translation of the book of Abraham was just a few years out as to the question that Oliver had in his mind as as to why he failed to translate when the Lord had clearly authorized him to do so in both section six and Section 8 the Lord explained quote it is because you did Not continue as you commenced when you began to translate that's interesting the Lord
said he actually began to translate now what exactly he means there we don't know but it could suggest that Oliver did in fact successfully dictate words that have become part of our book of Mormon English text so Oliver's successful at first right so the Lord and I think this is in Jose's history took away the privilege from him and in the Revelation the Lord does give Some kind of pointers like we've got to move on Oliver we don't have time but here's a couple things that I need you to know and this is part of
his seminar on Revelation where the Lord's teaching him things you've not understood the Lord tells him you have supposed that I would give it unto you when you took no thought save it was to ask me but you must study it out in your mind and then you must ask me if it be right and if it Is right I will cause the your bosom shall burn within you therefore you shall feel that it is right but if it be not right you shall have no such feelings but you shall have a stuper of thought
that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong now if you had known this you could have translated wow so Oliver had apparently underestimated both like the intellectual and spirit spiritual effort required to receive the level of revelation needed to translate The Book of Mormon in fact the Lord uses the word fear you just read the word feared here meaning perhaps that he feared failure I feel like the Lord had been clear hadn't he at the end of Section 8 that Oliver's translation efforts would only succeed according to his faith the Lord said
but Oliver failed because the Lord is suggesting here he allowed his fears to stifle his faith and the Lord kind of tenderly sayso not murmur my son for it is wisdom In me that I've dealt with you after this manner so what was the wisdom in allowing Oliver to try to translate and fail I mean the Lord knew right and so why set up this Little Learning environment you keep calling this like a a seminar on on Revelation so why let Oliver try and fail why promise him that he can translate and then when he
tries he's not able to eek out more than maybe 28 words like what does he mean that is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you After this manner well I mean this is a whole discussion on why does the Lord let us fail at anything or why do we sometimes get Revelation and then things don't turn out exactly the way we want them to be I mean this is a whole subtopic on the question of of of Faith but I mean failure doesn't always mean rejection necessarily and failure can be a part of
the learning process and if this is Oliver cow's seminar on Revelation and how it works a lot of Times you give your student a shot and let them fail and then turn it into an instructive moment which I think is what the Lord's trying to do here yeah I think so I like let's go over to verse 12 where the Lord says for do you not behold that I have given unto my servant Joseph sufficient strength whereby it is made up and neither of you have I condemned that line do you not behold that I
have given Joseph sufficient strength whereby your failure is made up He's talking about Oliver's failure don't you see that Joseph's strength is sufficient to compensate for your weakness I just got to pause and think about that it seems like the Lord is saying that now Oliver you have tried and you have failed to translate right can you now appreciate the extent to which your young unlearned colleague Joseph Smith has developed his revelatory gifts can you now understand with fresh eyes the miracle The Marvelous work and wonder that you're now witnessing as you're sitting across from
23-year-old Joseph and watching him translate The Book of Mormon page after page day after day week after week using stones that he had received with the record I think this is the wisdom this is my thought and I think that's what the Lord's saying with verse 12 is do you not behold Joseph remember that section six had started out with some doubts and fears in Oliver cry's heart Right probably doubts about his own insecurities but also doubts about Joseph and what the Lord has just walked him through through this seminar is a Joseph Smith the
prophet appreciation seminar as well like this is I think to help Oliver recognize the gifts of this young Seer that he is remarkably getting to describe [Music] for and he actually shares this a couple years later about his experience being Able to scribe The Book of Mormon he said these were days never to be forgotten to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of Heaven awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom day after day I continued uninterrupted to write from his mouth as he translated with the uran thumb of or as
the Nephites would have said interpreters the history or record called The Book of Mormon so it seems that section 8 is is encouraging this Eager but perhaps naive Oliver cowry to translate as he had seen Joseph do and then following his failure section n offers humbling counsel for this developing disciple of Christ so here Oliver is gaining valuable insight into developing his own growing spiritual gifts as well as a pretty deep respect and awe for the Miracles the Lord is accomplishing through the spiritual gifts of Joseph Smith that seems to be the biggest lesson wouldn't
you say that That's another lesson about Revelation is that sometimes the lesson is you're not going to get the Revelation you have to get a confirmation of what someone else has received we all want to be kind of the hero of the story but Oliver was being taught here hey sometimes you're the Revelator and translator and sometimes you're the Scribe it's like the body of Christ analogy Paul uses is like the IE can't say to the hand I have no need of you we all have our roles to Play and a lot of times the
Revelation that we need to get is that the Revelation someone else received is correct and true and then we're we're ready to go again admire Oliver but there is kind of a line you can trace in their relationship where Oliver was better educated I think Oliver kind of thought of himself as I think more intellectual than Joseph and might have needed this early lesson to say hey it's not always about the amount of training You have it's about the calling you receive and the work you put into it and that's another major thing I would
add here in our seminar in Revelation is revelation takes work I have so many students that just assume if I pray I'll get the answer and the lord gave you a mind and a heart for a reason he expects you to reason through things to grow in understanding and a lot of times like the Revelation says ask me if it's right you've already made the decision and Then I'll confirm to you that it's right the revelation cuz I mean the evidence here is that Joseph had had the plates for over a year at this point
Oliver has been there a couple weeks and he's expecting to just be at the same level I mean it takes time it's like any other skill you have to work at it in order for it to to become really viable yeah Joseph Smith talked about growing into the principle of Revelation is how he said it like it's something you got to Learn it's like a skill and these Revelations that we've just looked at today Casey 6 through N I think are a pretty cool intimate look into how the Lord has tutored to Disciples of Jesus
budding in their spiritual gifts Joseph is further along in his development of his ability to receive Revelation and but allad is on his way and the Lord says to both of them you have a gift it just takes work and I don't know about you but I am still I feel like at the Very beginning of trying to figure out Revelation I'm humbled that section 8 lays out a pattern for Revelation the context is about how to translate ancient records which has never been a task I've been given but I feel like the principles in
Section 8 and9 have been useful in other contexts as I've sought Revelation again we're we're stepping around the most important Revelation from all these sections which is anybody can get Revelation it's not a privileged Role some people have roles that allow them to receive more specific or more significant Revelations but Oliver cry's introduction into this whole world is the Lord basically saying to him again and again and again yeah you can do this yeah you can do this and it reminds me of that statement Joseph Smith gives later on where he says God hath not
revealed anything to Joseph but that he will make known to the 12 and the weakest of saints as soon as they Qualify themselves for these things so that's going to be a thread throughout the doctrine Covenant too that Joseph Smith is receiving Revelation and he's acting in his role as a prophet but anybody can get Revelation that's one of the most beautiful things that we teach is that God speaks to everyone I love that as an ideal and I struggle with it in the real it is I found that it's kind of hard to actually
get Revelation you know uh peace maybe section six level Revelation seems a lot easier than having like words from Heaven dictated to your mind Section 8 and section n level of revelation and there is a difference here peace did I not speak peace to your mind section six and here are actual words from an ancient record that you can dictate to ascribe I think what Joseph Smith is doing at age 23 is not just next level but like next next level Revelation it's not like yeah anybody can translate ancient records Just give it a shot
like just you know it's like no we can all stand back and admire what the Prophet Joseph is doing the way we can admire that is by reading the book of Mormon itself like if you read the text and you get into the details of this thing it is mind-blowing that this came to Joseph Smith at 23 looking at rocks in his hat Casey uh and how fast it came and we're going to talk with u an expert in our companion episode to this one with our friend Jack Welch to walk through the rapidity of
this translation once Joseph starts going like Full Speed Ahead they start April 7th and they're done like end of June and so we're going to talk to to Jack Welch about pinning down the timing of this but I would like to say in the same breath as we're saying look anyone can receive Revelation and the principles are outlined in these sections I would like to also say that we should all like Oliver stand back and Admire what God is doing through Joseph Smith that he doesn't typically do through people like you and me like this
is next next level Revelation that Joseph's getting and the Book of Mormon is the evidence that it was real like read the text we have the text and it's pretty remarkable yeah it's one of those paradoxes that you know Revelation is something anybody can do but here is somebody who really received a revelation it was a marvelous work and a Wonder and that's Joseph Smith and coming for with the Book of Mormon as we're going to illustrate when we talk with Jack Welsh in our next episode episode so I'm looking forward to that that's going
to be way fun talk about translation with one of the world's experts on it who we are very grateful to have with us so we'll look forward to that that'll drop in two days time from now well thank you Casey that was a good time man thanks Scott we'll see you over With Jack Welch all right see you then [Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you for joining us on this episode of church history matters our new episodes drop every Tuesday so please join us next week as we continue to dig into the context content controversies and
consequences of the revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants if you're enjoying or gaining value from church History matters we would love it if you could pay it forward by telling your friends about it or by taking a moment to subscribe rate review and comment on the podcast that makes us easier to find today's episode was produced by by Scott Woodward and edited by Daniel Sorenson with show notes and transcript by Gabe Davis church history matters is a podcast of scripture Central a nonprofit which exists to help build enduring faith in Jesus Christ by making Latter-Day
Saint scripture and church history accessible comprehensible and defensible to people everywhere for more resources to enhance your gospel study go to scripture central.org where everything is available for free because of the generous donations of people like you let me say that again all of our content is free because people like you donate to make it possible so if you're in a position where you're both willing and able to make a onetime or ongoing Donation be assured that your contribution will help us here at scripture Central to produce and disseminate more quality content to combat false
and Faith eroding material out there in the digital Marketplace of ideas and while Casey and I try very hard to be historically and doctrinally accurate in what we say on this podcast please remember that all views expressed in this and every episode are our views alone and do not necessarily reflect the Views of scripture Central or the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday saints thank you so much for being a part of this with us
