ukrainians had captured a lot of conscripts um during the KK operation and they were young people from um you know places that could be St Petersburg or Moscow who would were told that they would never be in a Frontline battle uh and the the families of those were quite outraged um that they had been captured when they shouldn't be anywhere near the front line and that had put some press some pressure on Putin and suddenly he was willing to negotiate this hello and welcome to Frontline for times radio with me K chabo and this time
we are joined by Maxim Tucker Maxim is the times as Ukraine and Eastern Europe correspondent he's been reporting from the front lines in Ukraine since 2022 Maxim good to see you again thank you for your time really want to talk to you today about two in-depth reports that you've done recently um on Ukraine's air defense tactics and also how it's protecting its grain exports at sea but um you're just back or fairly recently back from Ukraine can you just give me an overview of of your recent trip and how the people you met were and
what you can tell me about their expectations in Ukraine Ukraine at this moment so I think people in Ukraine are very worried about the situation in donbas um and how it's going to play out with so many troops moved into ksk to to crossing the border into Russia and taking those defenses away from the donbass um so there was a kind of great concern particularly among the soldiers that I speak to are still holding the line inass as to what's next for them um and if they were going to ever going to get reinforcements or
or relief um the second thing that is really worrying Ukrainian Society is this mobilization the mass Mobil mobilization that's going ahead now the Ukrainian men with many men choosing to stay at home and try and avoid the draft and others you know signing up very reluctantly because they're concerned about how many people are being reported killed or wounded um and I think what's critical at this moment is all eyes are on zelinsky's visit to the US to see what will happen there um and if Ukraine can win some guarantees of security and additional hardware and
all the things they desperately need in order to drive the Russians out of their territory how do you think um the announcement the US will supply Glide bombs to Ukraine will be received and how much of a difference do you think that realistically will make I think it's it's very helpful and you know but what's key is lifting the the restrictions on the use of these long wange reps um so Ukraine needs to have us approval to strike Targets in inside Russia um it also of course needs more aircraft in order to to launch these
Glide bombs so you know uh the promise that the US will train additional 16 F-16 pilots in the US next year is good but it's not happening fast enough it's not enough and ukrainians are still frustrated they don't have enough Pilots or planes in order to attack the Russian bases from where they're being attacked themselves just want to now draw on those recent reports that you've written earlier this week you did this really interesting deep Di into the planning and the evolution of Ukraine's tactics that destroyed an A50 spy plane and damaged its Airborne Command
Center can you just start by um telling us exactly what these aircraft are and how they've been operating so the A50 is an equivalent to a NATO awax it's a it's basically a huge Airborne radar which can see for hundreds of miles across um territory and penetrate deep inside Ukraine and the Russians have been using these flying them over the azop sea in order to get a great picture of what's happening in Ukrainian airspace um that allowed them to monitor Ukrainian jet activity but also you know drones and any missiles that would be fired across
the border at Russia or at Russian troops inside Ukrainian territory um and this was a huge advantage that the Russians had over the ukrainians the ukrainians did haven't had this kind of capability um and in fact the ukrainians were able to shoot down two a50s um in kind of surprise ambushes which involved in one case taking a very old Soviet missile system that had been decommissioned 11 years earlier uh kind of re-engineering it rebuilding finding all the components getting people who were familiar with this really Antiquated system putting it back together um and mounting it
some 40 kilometers from the front line in the in the um knowing the patrol route of one of these a50s across the azov sea um they fired it at this A50 they missed it the first time but they inspired the it was was a a Ukrainian Military Intelligence off um uh it was a Ukrainian Military Intelligence operation and they inspired the Ukrainian Air Force to then take up their own action and the Ukrainian Air Force drove a patriot missile system with several other vehicles very very close to the front line and ambushed another A50 plane
shot it down at a range of nearly 200 kilometers um and the the ukrainians were then able to take the antiquated s200 anti-aircraft system and shoot down a second A50 um and after that the Russians simply couldn't put up any more a50s they didn't want to lose them they're very valuable aircraft um and so the ukrainians have effectively denied Russia ra radar view over Ukraine from these Airborne aircraft and at the same time Ukraine is going to be getting Swedish uh radar aircraft Airborne radar systems to look into Russian airspace so the situation when they
get those aircraft will change quite dramatically and and just how risky an operation was it for the Ukrainian forces involved to take down those a50s so it's incredibly risky for the the Patriot battery that had to drive very very close to the front line we're talking five or six kilometers within artillery range of the Russians it had to be very covert very secretive Mission had to be done quickly Drive in Ambush the plane and drive back out and they' been trained by the Germans actually Who provided this Patriot battery on trucks um in this kind
of operation uh on the other hand the s200 is a completely static um air defense system and that had to be built over a number of days and and then deconstructed over a number of days so again they had to take very good care to camouflage that um and then Evacuate the area in case there was retaliation and then start dismantling it later at night over over a period of a few days and up to 13 kilometers of cables on that system it seems incredibly um audacious but also ingenious and you're talking to the people
involved in in coming up with this this plan I mean how did they view it what did they tell you with they presumably incredibly proud and but but a very tricky operation to actually carry out yeah I mean they're obviously proud of what they've done and you know the significance of it is huge in in destroying two aircraft which are worth $330 million each to build um and Russia is really struggling to to replace them um I think the the idea is always these ideas are born out of necessity if you have to do something
you find a way to do it um and the ukrainians have demonstrated great Ingenuity throughout the course of this conflict of solving problems that are causing them great difficulties how much of a dent has it actually been then to Russia's ability to control the skies well I was talking to uh Marshall Greg Bagwell the other day who was telling me that this was a massive blow to Russia not only in terms of the war with Ukraine but also its ability to confront NATO these are quite old aircraft they're very difficult to build they have a
lot of um specialist crew that are needed and you know in both instances they lost the crew of these aircraft there's Decades of experience on that plane that could be used to train others um and they only have a handful of them I think there're supposed to be less than nine of these functioning a50s um and he said that a lot of those would probably have already been cannibalized for spare parts and the the fact that Russia hasn't been able to put any more a50s up into the air May demonstrate that the others are not
flight worthy what are the fact behind the success was the element of surprise wasn't it those AR crew never imagined they were within range can you explain another tactic the ukrainians have been using the so-called sambos what is it and how has it been used so this is the idea that you take a anti-aircraft defense system which you would primarily expect to be used to defend uh an area against uh aircraft or missiles and use it in offensive capacity instead of a defensive capacity and that involves kind of driving it or placing it uh towards
where the the object that you're trying to attack is and attacking it from very long range um and only a few of the Ukrainian systems have the capability to do this the s200 has a very long range it has a very it can shoot down aircraft at high altitude but it's not very maneuverable so you need you can only hit something big like an A50 or a strategic bomber they also shot down using the s200 A 222 M3 nuclear capable strategic bomber which again affects the confrontation with NATO and Russia's ability to deliver nuclear weapons
if it needs to um and the Patriot system has a shorter range and that really had to go a lot closer to the to the front lines but it's about using these objects which are usually used in air defense and offensive Capa capacity and the ukrainians have also done this in briansk in May of last year they shot down a number of planes um over briansk region of Russia and they've uh done it over kinky as well and that's helped a lot with some of the the Glide bomb attacks on Ukrainian positions but obviously the
numbers of Glide bombs are so vast that and they still don't have enough Patriot systems and enough air defense systems to move around and that's why zalinsky is in Washington at the moment saying we need more of these systems but yeah another example though of ingenious ways of of coming up with things out of necessity right and it's something that the Americans were really surprised because they don't use their Patriot systems in that way they use them as a kind of Aira defense tool and they defend strategic objects but the Germans do use had well
at least envisaged using these in that way their their Patriots are mounted on trucks and they much more mobile so and an American defense Commander was saying this is something we hadn't witnessed in in kind of 22 years of my career as an air defense Commander um but the Germans were drilling the ukrainians to kind of wake up in the early hours of the night March somewhere Drive their vehicle somewhere to go about fight an air defense battle and then return so this kind of Mo fight shoot and Scoot as it's is known is being
plied across the Ukrainian Force forces but very innovatively in air defense systems it's very interesting um on your recent travels you also went to the vital City Port of adessa to report on Naval efforts to keep the corridor open for grain exports can you tell us about the kind of vessels that are getting through and the kind of threats they're facing yeah so it's really important for Ukraine to keep its economy afloat it's obviously wartime economy it's been really badly battered by Russia strangling its supply routes Taking Over the Sea of azov um and also
kind of restrictions on on the amount that you can export by Road and by rail um so having re being able to reopen a sea rout which has been crucial to the ukrainians um 70% of the of the agriculture of the exports of Ukraine or is I think it's now even up to 90% are agricultural so they need to open that that grain Corridor and when Russia unilaterally withdrew from the the UN negotiated agreement uh Ukraine s to find a way that to keep it open um and that has involved escorting kind of very large
grain cargo ships through the 12 miles of territorial Waters and then hugging the kind of the NATO Allied coastl so that's you know Bulgaria Romania through to the phosphorus and out into the into the Mediterranean through that way um but it's difficult because the Russians are obviously targeting the the infrastructure and Ukrainian ports they're laying mines in the way of these vehicles in territory Waters and they're doing everything they can to do disrupt this trade including boarding some of the vessels harassing them via radio threatening to shoot them um and so the Ukrainian Sailors who
often don't really talk about their work we're revealing some of the secrets um of their engagements with the Russians and how they have been keeping this grain corridor open over the last year and a half and I understand um from what you wrote that actually it's quite rare that they would they share their thoughts with you about this why did these Ukrainian Sailors want to speak out so a lot of them are from occupying territory and a lot of them would have served alongside the Russian military in Crimea so they are very concerned about retaliation
against their family members um in occupied territory and for that reason we decided we didn't name them or give any of identified details about the sters but they wanted to to demonstrate how important this route is and some of the work that they'd been doing and how Russia is is trying to disrupt it at a time when a Russian missile struck a cargo ship and it had to be roted to a port in in Romania so this is Russian attacks and behavior threatening civilian vessels so they were talking about how the Russians had laid mines
in in the path of Civilian vessels boarding these ships um and basically acting as a very kind of Reckless um Navy in international waters and I understand there was one particular incident you were told about involving a mine floating towards Port um can you describe what happened so this was just one example from from the many that they talked about but in particularly Haring example of how one of these Russian mines which they say was left over from World War II um floated into one of the Ukrainian sea port and had um kind of lodged
itself underneath a pier um and it was bobbing in the waves and if it was a Meer one way or the other would hit the concrete and it would it would detonate so this Navy cutter had to go into the ports um a diver had to leap over the side of his his small rigid inflatable boat detach a cable to this very old and unstable mine swim back to the boat to attach um the other side of the cable and they had to tow this mine out of the port with a distance of about 10
meters between them and the mines so were definitely if they were hit they if if the mine went off they would definitely be hit by that um and it's just an incredible example of how these guys are going through this as a as a daily routine they speak about it quite nonent but the stories they tell are incredible sounds like it and what kind of impact has has all of has had on Ukraine's grain exports so it's it's allowed Ukraine to keep the The Roots open um but at kind of a lower number than previously
so before the War I think they were exporting about you know about there were about 750 shipments per month now in the entire year they'll have about 2,250 ships going through servicing those ports and they still have very important ports like mikia which is one of Ukraine's largest port is not able to be used because the Russians um still occupying the kinburn spit and it's it's very dangerous for the the shipping to try and go past the kinburn spit they'll be within artillery range of of the Russians there um so it has had an impact
on allowing Ukraine's economy to get basically a Lifeline for Ukraine's economy but it is much reduced and it does show how difficult it is for Ukraine to maintain this um economy and how much how Reliant it is on Western Partners at these times can can I just ask you a bit about the piece you're currently working on um as I understand it's about prisoner exchanges uh what did you set out to do so I was very interested in how sporadic these prisoner exchanges are and what motivates them how they come about um why it happens
sometimes and why it's not consistent what what the Russians are asking for when they have these prisoner exchanges and there was a very long Hiatus in prison exchanges before Ukraine invaded the K region of Russia so I was looking at why had that been and then suddenly there were Mass prisoner exchanges after that so ukrainians had captured a lot of conscripts um during the KK operation and they were young people from um you know places that could be St Petersburg or Moscow who would were told that they would never be in a Frontline battle uh
and the the families of those were quite outraged um that they had been captured when they shouldn't be anywhere near the front line and that had put some pre some pressure on on Putin and suddenly he was willing to negotiate this but the ukrainians said that the reason these negotiations had slowed down before was that all of the kind of Russian contract soldiers and and kind of prisoners and people that had been captured before um the Russians weren't really interested in retrieving them and they were only interested in extracting as much as they could as
many concessions as they could from the ukrainians in order to get the Ukrainian prisoners back the ukrainians are very keen on bringing back their people um and the one person that I spoke to who's party to this negotiation said was something like an 18th century slave market it wasn't a humanitarian Mission it wasn't a humanitarian exercise the Russians just wanted to get as many of their people out um in return for as few ukrainians being released as possible and every time the ukrainians would go to the negotiating table the Russians would come back with some
ridiculous demand that was unable that they were unable to meet did you learn much about the process yeah so it's quite an interesting process so the Russians don't have a coordination Center in the same way the ukrainians have it's not very organized um ukrainians have to reach out to different people they were talking about how kadirov is very interested in getting his chin back so if you capture chin that's great because you almost certainly will get a prison of War back in in exchange for chin but the the the Russian government is not really interested
in it and the ukrainians have informal roots with people that you know the denet People's Republic and the luhansk People's Republic so-called republics that Russia set up in 2014 um the ukrainians have links to some of those and they're able to negotiate with them on those bases and there's one particular story that you you you featured can you tell me a bit more about the the woman the uh veteran she's a serving Soldier is that right she's a former Soldier a former a combat medic who was fighting in Mar opal um and she was captured
during the defense of AZ of sty along with her husband who was in a separate um fighting unit uh and they were held in Russia for a period of time after the fall of a of star she was then released as part of a prisoner exchange but her husband was not he he stayed in Russia um and she has desperately been trying to get her husband back after this and and facing blockage and it's very difficult for the families even in the Ukrainian side because the process is quite opaque and the Ukrainian coordination Center says
look it's actually unhelpful for us to name who we want because if we say who we want to the Russians they try and extract a higher price from us so we're kind of dealing with give them the list but then see what happens it sounds absolutely agonizing I mean is it is it possible to say how long she may have to wait or what her chances of success are well in the most recent prisoner exchange there were some people who were captured at as of sty released so you know we were with her at the
time and she got these text messages from other families who were welcoming home uh their loved ones and you know obviously there was some excitement and hope in her that maybe her husband was was one of these um and then obviously disappoint appointment when she realized that he wasn't among them but these kind of these every time there is a prisoner exchange it it brings some hope to these family then obviously it's devastating when it's not their loved ones and there's still about more than a thousand prisoners from azavar on the Russian side and they've
been in captivity for really a very long time yeah and just uh just finally Maxim I mean it's it's interesting time uh president ziny in New York um I'm just wondering how much anxiety um you think there is in the country in Ukraine about the politics surrounding the war that talk of Victory or peace and the winter coming along with a new US president yeah it's it's a very anxious time you know huge changes are fo the the Russians are obviously focusing on Ukrainian energy infrastructure again attacking that the winter is going to be very
very hard if it's a cold winter it will be you know a tragedy for Ukraine and we'll see again millions of people potentially leaving Ukraine and heading to Europe as a result of this um and at the same time zilinski has made this gamble to invade kurk to try and show the West that Putin's red lines his nuclear Bluffs you know his his nuclear deterence is really a bluff um and that West must lift these um restrictions on using Western weapons against Russian logistical hubs inside Russia um and at the same time you have these
Russian advances in in pakros and Vadar which are really important for the Ukrainian defense there so it feels like a lot hangs in the balance I mean we've saying we've been saying that a lot throughout the war um and the trouble is that the West realizes a little bit too late every time and offers something which comes a little bit too late every time um you know there's still an opportunity for the West to provide the weapons and and remove the restrictions that would allow Ukraine to deal enough of a blow to the Russians to
bring them to the negotiating table otherwise we kind and just for the record I should say Max it's it's half past 2 in London on on uh Thursday the 26th of September at the moment no news on that but we will wait and we will watch and I'm sure we'll be talking about it again um thank you so much for your time thanks for having me K you've been watching Frontline for times radio with me K chabo my thanks to our producers today Lis syes and Morgan berdick and for you for watching if you'd like
to support us you can subscribe now or you can listen to times radio for the latest news and in-depth analysis or go to the times.co.uk okay for now though thanks for watching bye-bye
