Judy: A series of recently opened Vatican archives are shedding on the relationship between pope Pius XII and Adolf hitler as he led Nazi Germany during world War II -- shedding new light on the relationship. >> In 2020, the Vatican released millions of documents on pope Pius XII that were previously hidden from public you. They include transcript of negotiations between the pope and Nazis.
A new book published today takes a deeper look at these revelations. Historian David Kurtzer is the author of that book called "The pope at war: The secret history of Pius XII, mussolini, and Adolf hitler. " A lot of folks know previous versions of history around Pius XII one of two ways.
He was either called hitler's pope, and anti-semi, or an official who did everything he could to save Jews during the war. What is your view? >> Neither one is really accurate.
They are both extremes. The fact is Pius XII was afraid, certainly during the first years of the war, that the Nazis were going to win, so he had to prepare for a Europe that was going to be under Nazi control. So his main concern in those early years was to protect the church in a time when Europe could be under Nazi control.
It was not that he loved the Nazis, much less hitler's, but this was his thinking. >> What does that mean when you say protect the church? You mention the meeting we now know happened between the pope and a personal envoy of hitler's.
>> Probably the most shocking finding from these archives that just opened after 50 years of pressure and interest in being able to see what they contain is that within weeks of Pius being elected pope -- he is elected in early 1939 -- hitler's saw an opportunity and decided to send a personal envoy, who himself is a rather colorful character. The great-grandson of queen Victoria of England, a Nazi prince who was married to the daughter of the king of Italy, and he would begin to shuttle back and forth between hitler and the pope for years engaged in secret negotiations. We did not know about these until just now.
>> When it comes down to what pope Pius XII did or did not do in terms of saving lives, can you tell about on October night in Rome? >> October 6, 19 43, the ss had lists of all the Jews in Rome and went door-to-door and tried to arrest all of Rome's Jews. They found about 1260, arrested them, brought them to a military college just outside the walls of the Vatican and held them there for two days.
What we have learned from these recently opened archives is that the Vatican worked very hard to show that some of them had been baptized and therefore should not be considered Jews from the point of view of the church and therefore should not be shipped off to ashridge -- to auschwitz with the rest of them and that about 250 were freed before two days later they were put on a train of 1007, of whom, I think about 16 would survive. The pope did send his cardinal secretary of state to meet with the German ambassador to say, do you really need to go through with this? Can you do something about this?
But the ambassador told the cardinal secretary of state's have been ordered by the highest level, and you don't want me to protest on your behalf, do you? And the cardinal secretary of state said no, I'm not insisting on any protests. >> The Vatican has come forward when previous allegations were made.
Have they responded in any way to your reporting? >> Other national Roman catholic churches have come to terms with this history, and part of the history is how was that in the middle of the 20th century that millions of Jews could be massacred, little children, old people, by people who thought of themselves at -- as Christian? More than half of them Roman catholics, but also protestants.
The Vatican released a statement in I think 1998 in which they said their own demonization of the Jews had absolutely nothing to do with the holocaust. I think my book is probably not entirely appreciated by many of the Vatican, although there are those in the Vatican when I worked in the archives who have whispered to me they are happy this is finally coming out. >> What about how we view all these years later the role of pope Pius XII and the leadership of the church?
There has been a push all these years later for his sainthood. >> The pope has tried to beatified and canonized by the conservatives of the church who see the church as having gone wrong after his death with the second Vatican council under his successor, John XXIII. First of all, I wish they would read this book, but I also wish they would be willing to consider this history under, but I'm afraid for those who really do not have an open mind, and it is unlikely it will change their minds, so I think the drive to make a saint up Pius XII will continue.
>> Thank you so much. >> Thank you.
