Foreign [Music] foreign Salvador is yes Providence [Music] and brothers it's a delight to be with you and we want to Dive Right In and so I would like to to ask Conor David to be the first to ask a question Conrad Um comes from Lusaka Zambia and represents Africa on this call and Dr medeva we're delighted to hear your question thank you thank you very much uh it's a real joy to be with all of you uh the question that I'm asking goes this way in Africa we believe in the spirit world controlling everything that
happens that's just generally in the culture I'm sure some of this is what God has left in us as human beings by his common Grace despite the four but what is uniquely Christian about the Bible's teaching on Providence that would not be replicated say in African traditional religions wow thank you Conrad um I am not an expert on African traditional religions even though I remember goodness what almost 45 years ago now when I did my doctoral dissertation in Germany one of My oral exams was on the independent churches of Africa I wish I had studied
harder and remembered more but let me just think out loud with you for a moment and you can correct me um there is one God and not many spirits who rule the world there is a Satan and he has many Angels or people who serve him but there is one Sovereign God Preeminent over Satan we don't the Bible doesn't present a dualism here's Satan and here's God and they are fighting with each other to see who can be Supreme there is one God and he is over Satan and over all the spirits so that's the
first thing I would say the the Providence of God in the Bible teaches that there are real spirits real demons are real good Angels they are sent forth to serve the Saints Satan hates Christians he can cause all kinds Of things like disease he can throw people in jail he can get people killed but he can't do anything without God's Sovereign will without God's permission without God's decree and therefore that's the first thing then the second thing I would say is the the unity of God over all things they're the Oneness of God means there
is a pervasive single purpose throughout all the nations throughout all the spirits and that purpose is I'm sure different than African traditional religions it is a purpose to magnify Jesus Christ the Son of God sent into the world at a point in time in history lives a perfect life dies a substitutionary death Bears the sins of his people disperses emissaries all over the world to Every Nation calling people to submit to the one son of God Jesus Christ and Providence is seeing to it that Christ gets exalted everywhere so that's a that's a second distinction
the absolute Christ-centeredness of it all I think the third thing I would say is that it is a merciful patient kind loving Providence summoning people out of bondage to forces which are not loving not kind not patient not merciful and therefore the note to be struck in the sovereignty of God in his uh preeminence over all forces is that God is rescuing Sinners he's rescuing hurting people so those would be three things that come into my mind Conrad That would distinguish God's spiritual unseen Providence in our lives from from those other forces and and one
more one more comes to my mind and I'm sure there are more and that is that we don't control them we don't control God's Providence God controls us God is supreme and we don't therefore live our lives in constant uh effort to think out how can I appease this God how can I placate this Providence in my life so that my Child doesn't die or whatever we don't do that he has already demonstrated in Christ his good inclination to all who trust him and therefore we submit ourselves totally to his Providence trusting that he will
do good to us and you know even even here in America um Conrad a few years ago on New Year's Eve I got called to a hospital where uh a little baby had just been born and died and the husband was was uh so distraught He took me aside in the in the hall in the hospital and he asked me this question he said Can a family be cursed because so many bad things had happened in their lives recently he felt like we're under a curse and my answer to that was and it would be
a a foundational answer I think to all believers in curses and hexes and all kinds of abuses that evil spirits bring upon people I would say um Christ became a curse for us that's what I told him Christ became a curse for us so that Every curse is broken and lifted you don't have to live under the fear of the curse of demons or the curse of God anymore because Christ has borne the curse Connor do you do you have a follow-up question to that yeah yeah well you're three four others is actually a very
helpful especially the uh the christocentric aspect of Providence uh it really sort of turned on the light bulb for me because a lot of Providence in Africa is really fatalism uh it lacks that personal Redemptive involvement of God and so when you touched on that I thought that's it that's it that's a major uh difference quite apart from you know the reality of God being Supreme and not in a tug of war with uh with the devil thanks a lot yeah I remember when Spurgeon was asked What's the difference between your view of Providence and
fatalism his answer was that in Providence there is a very personal purposefulness and personal engagement with his with the people of of God it is not a mechanical thing that got started and just keeps rolling on like a mechanism instead of a personal God actually interacting with his people does anyone want to follow up on this question Any further comments from others on this call well it was apparently a very good answer then thank you Pastor John um and let's let's go to the next question and let's go to Brazil and Augustus you have a
question for Pastor John and please unmute your microphone first place thank you for the opportunity to be here nice to see you again Pastor John and um and everybody Else it's a privilege for me as you know Brazil is one of the largest Pentecostal countries today we have very many brothers from the Pentecostal tradition only recently the reformed faith has made an impact in Brazil and praise the Lord it is growing and this question is that I'm going to offer now is made by a lot of people who have discovered the reformer trade from a
Pentecostal background on God's Providence God's Providence Extends to every little detail of what happens this is what you say in your book this is what informed people teach most of the time however God uses means to achieve his goals according to laws that himself has established he himself has established his laws in a world governed by this Divine Law of causality how can we perceive God in what happens for example when I get sick I pray for a cure and I take my meds would I get better even if I hadn't Prayed in other words
what difference does prayer and Faith make in a world where God moves and acts through Network causes this question is is in their minds they trying to reconcile that what would you say to them John well this is fully biblical and therefore true that God has uh willed to work his Sovereign purposes through secondary causes he doesn't do everything directly He ordains that things come to pass through other means that is Manifest in the scriptures that's why he has appointed prayer as a means that's why he has appointed evangelism as a means go and preach
to the Nations in fact the way I picture the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing about God's Divine purposes in people's lives in a saving way is that my hands represent airplanes right Now they're flying in in Tandem and the gospel here being preached is flying in the Holy Spirit is flying in tandem with the gospel because the Holy Spirit inspired the gospel magnifies the Christ of the gospel and wherever that that gospel goes the holy spirit is moving and working if the gospel lands and says oh well if the holy spirit is doing
the decisive work I'll just land and he can go flying through the world and bringing people to Christ without me the holy spirit's going to land that's why I would Sabbath see that the holy spirit's Sovereign work in Saving Sinners just to use one specific example of kinds of things that happen in the world is always Tethered to the preaching of the gospel and then if somebody says to me why is that why wouldn't God just do it all sovereignly and directly vertically just go around saving Sinners all over the place by Illumining their minds
with the Holy Spirit and the answer is he wants to magnify Jesus Christ preached in the gospel in second second Corinthians 4 says the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ who is the image of God so the gospel is the chosen means means by which the beauty of Christ is verbalized but that doesn't save anybody right You have to have the Holy Spirit opening Lydia's heart in Acts 16. he opens her heart to give heed to that
so the first thing to say is their observation namely that God works through means is absolutely right now let's circle around back to the the medical question that they asked um would God have made you well uh from covid if you hadn't gotten oxygen if you hadn't Taking the right medicines would you get well if you didn't get vaccine I mean would you avoid it anyway if you hadn't gotten vaccinated and the answer is I don't know and God can save through medicine God can save without medicine here's what I do know James says you
have not because you asked not I mean let that sink in if I was talking to this person that you're representing I would say what does that text say you Have not because you ask not it's an amazing statement it really does mean if you don't pray I won't act and that shakes people up how can you believe in the sovereignty of God then if if his acting depends on my praying and the answer is because you're praying is ordained God ordains the instruments and he ordains the the ends so you have not because you
ask not and I would also say it may well be you stay sick because you Don't get your penicillin shot you stay sick because you don't take your antibiotic and if you ask me well why does he do it sometimes supernaturally and sometime naturally and the answer is he's infinitely wise and he knows when it's best to display his glory his Mercy his power through a miracle and he knows when it's best to be withhold the miracle and use ordinary Common Grace means and God is accomplishing double purposes there and we have to submit to
those those purposes one to display his grace in healing and the other is to test our patience or our trust in him when it doesn't come I mean when you read Romans 8 right and and it says um those who whom he predestined he he called and those of me called he justified and those of me Justified he glorified who who what should we say to These things if God is for us who can be against us who shall bring any charge against God's elect it is God who justifies who is to condemn it is
Christ Jesus who died who shall separate us from the love of Christ and then then they come shall persecution famine nakedness Peril sword meaning all of those happen to Christians and they're not supernaturally delivered why because by putting them through those things other good things happen besides The glory of God in healing so I'm just saying that when God glorifies his grace in healing directly or God glorifies his common Grace and tests your faith by not healing or by healing with medicine he's always infinitely wise infinitely good accomplishing good things so my main my main
response is I affirm your observation that means are real and I affirm with the Bible that God governs all means for infinitely wise Purposes not very much I I I'm satisfied with your answer and I'm sure this is what we should say to these dear people who are coming to the reformed Faith from this Pentecostal background and they struggle with this thing the relation of God's sovereignty and the means in secondary causes through which God works in this world thank you very much yet just one other word that goes to Um my experience over the
years has been that truly born again Pentecostal people are very um open to the sovereignty of God meaning they sing about his majesty they love his power in healing right they're always championing the greatness and the power of God and if you step into their lives and say Can I talk about how you got saved like what happened to you and and they're just so ready whereas another kind of opponent to the reformed Faith who's very rational that person is much harder to get on board because they're up their oppositions are all philosophical and and
they don't have the spiritual sensitivities that many Pentecostals do to the the supernatural reality that I mean reformed people are the are the Crazy people who believe in Supernatural like I got saved because a miracle happened to me I mean most Pentecostals would hear you say that and say praise God and then they'd have to work out the Theology of it so I frankly I I like coming at things with a Pentecostal lens instead of the rationalistic you know lens that's got no time for the supernatural do we have a follow-up question or comment from
anyone Yeah I think there's uh one thing which quite true at least for Russian context uh people asking did I really pray enough uh did I take enough medicine so they really agree with all these means they really trust in the Lord was a question did I do enough to receive what I supposed to receive what would you say Pastor John I would I would empathize with them first as one who Shares their struggle uh I mean who who doesn't right I would guess that every person on this call has things you have been praying
for people you've been praying for baby for years and years and what you're asking for hasn't happened yet how can you not ask have I not prayed earnestly enough have I not trusted enough have I not fasted as I ought is there some hidden sin in my life so my first response to those people would be join the club um I I think it is inevitably human that a fallible sinful human being would question himself I mean how could we not right how can we Not question ourselves when the Bible summons us to live a
certain way talk a certain way pray a certain way evangelize a certain way and we we don't do it perfectly and therefore we wonder um am I saved that's the bottom line question isn't it so my my my answer is that I must continually preach to two things preach the gospel of Justification by faith alone apart from works of the law so that I can stand on our righteousness and pursue righteousness right Paul said in in Philippians 3 12 I press on to make it my own because I have been made his own I mean
that's the Christian ethic that's that's the approach so I'm going to only help these people feel possessed by God taking hold of by God owned by God died for loved by God and then Left their their pressing and they're questioning move forward from that so that's that's what I have to preach to myself is that Christ has made me his own and all my struggles now are are based on that that Grace the second thing is that I do really believe that our churches need to preach a summons for holiness and righteousness I think sometimes
Goss you know we're from the last 20 years we've been in a Moment of gospel-centered ministry right we're all gospel people gospel-centered this gospel centered that and woe to me if I belittle or disparage the gothic it's precious to me it's my life it's where I live however when I read the New Testament it is permeated with a summons for radical Christian discipleship and Holiness so I've got this double approach to my own Pursuit Of Peace Over against my inadequacies my failures my have I prayed enough of course I haven't prayed enough well how much
is how much is enough I don't know how much is enough that's why we have the Holy Spirit to give us the peace that passes all rational computation of what's enough so those two those two emphases preach the gospel to yourself and get yourself fixed and uh preach Holiness to yourself let me give you a concrete example Every night before I go to sleep I crawl into bed my wife is on my right side I'm on my left side I turned the light off I kiss my wife I lay my head usually it's the right
hand side on my pillow and I remember I may not wake up on Earth I think that every night I may not wake up on Earth I'm 75 years old I'm I Can't Live Forever all right so so I laid my Head on the pillow and you know what I say God has not destined you for Wrath but to obtain salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ who died for you so that whether you wake or sleep you will live with him that's first Thessalonians 5 9 and 10. I love that verse so very practically that's
what I do because if I let my mind go another way you know what it will say You didn't evangelize enough today you didn't love your wife well enough today you didn't pray enough today you didn't fast enough today all those voices those condemning voices are going to destroy me they are going to destroy me if I don't fight back with if you go to if you go to sleep now and and wake up in heaven or hell it will be heaven this is not rest on Piper you are loved through Jesus Christ and I
established Myself on him now I would like to ask a follow-up question to that um some people might come out on the exactly opposite side of things and say well my plane of prayer has not even taken off and yet I have seen God working so obviously my prayer is not that necessary because God because God is doing what he's doing so how would you respond to that I wouldn't believe them first of all I wouldn't believe them they because if their plane of prayer hasn't taken off they're not Christians so uh the plane has
at least taken off every one particular in one particular case so for example someone we had this example that Augustus raised someone has gotten sick and he took his meds and he had a very busy day and he didn't even think of praying he might be a person of Prayer but he didn't pray and next morning is okay he's well yeah yeah right if if they conclude from that that prayer is insignificant I would say to them so you are prioritizing your singular or multiple experience over the Bible the Bible summons you to pray ask
in your Thief seek and you'll find knock and the door will be opened which of you who has a son who asked him for bread would give Him a stone if he asks for egg would give him a snake if you then being evil know how to give good gift to your children won't your heavenly father give good things to those who ask him and I'll say to them so what do you do with that text do you believe that text you think Jesus is a knucklehead that he's an idiot that he's a liar so
I would really push the issue of experience versus word and then if they want to still talk at The level of rationality I would say God was very merciful to you you know he was very merciful to you to give you healing without your asking him because he has punished people for not Consulting him in the Bible who just run to Egypt for help and don't consult the Lord you are very fortunate and you should be on your face praying with Thanksgiving right now that God was merciful to you in answering a prayer That wasn't
prayed and now don't test him anymore press in on God that's one thing and second thing I'd say is at the level of just rationality is um how do you know how much more how much more he might have done had you prayed the issue here is not mainly physical healing it's so much bigger than that is that all you want is to be well I want to be well of course we all want to be well but that's not the main point of life and so God might make a person well and then be
destroyed we don't want just Wellness prayer is laying hold on God for the fullness of his Blessing not just a part of his Blessing excellent thank you very much let's go to the Arabic World Sharif from Egypt you have a question for Pastor John Yes it's uh it's great to be with you all and it's great to meet Pastor John again thank you for making this available and for opening the chance to to have these questions that we we face I think every every day our during our Ministries right I have a question about sanctification
that has to do with this part on with Providence and Christian Living how can we understand the place of Providence in Progressive sanctification of believers in other words how can we keep this balance between urging the Christians to work out their salvation and knowing that the Lord is the one who works in them to Will and to work for his good pleasure and at the same time that we know that it's it's in God's Providence at the end the way how much they are sanctified of course the means of Grace are crucial In this area
as you were just talking about prayer and uh and the importance of prayer and that the Lord is using the means of Grace and we we make use of this uh means of Grace but sometimes in God's Providence someone is Sanctified by by this means of Grace and some sometimes the Lord would I would say wait uh with someone else or make him wait in his sanctification and So how to place all this idea of progressive sanctification and in the frame of God's Providence and also we I have a question about the rewards of for
believers in this context uh we know that not all the Believers will be the same there will be kind of rewards for believers I always have this example in mind Abraham a lot both of them are righteous in terms of they are justified by faith alone by grace alone but we know that Abraham was different from lot at the end so how can we understand their sanctification and within God's Providence yeah yeah well for the average person we would just love to get them as far as you have come you you obviously have a great
deal of understanding of what you're asking about um and so you're pushing me to go Farther than than you have gone um here's the way I have wrestled with the question very personally and there's a section in the book on why or why oh God is sanctification so slow so not just two people one seems to grow in Leaps and Bounds in Holiness righteousness humility Faith love and the other person lags behind that's that's one problem but what about this Person who moves forward for a season and then it just all goes so slow or
what about that um besetting sin that he struggles with and he gets a victory for a month and fails he gets a victory for a year fails he gets what about that because if God is sovereign then he can snap his finger and the bondage is broken period it's just broken so and if if the answer comes Back well he he can't do that because that would turn us all into robots and say no it won't no it won't because at the last day that the trumpet sounds and the Cry of command and the resurrection
you know what's going to happen millions of people are going to be Sanctified totally in an instant and they're not going to be robots in heaven so God can do it He could do it yesterday and he doesn't so the the question biblically is can we find evidences or motives of God in the Bible for why he would pursue our sanctification in such a progressive slow way because he's in charge we do not I believe texts like don't grieve the Holy Spirit and don't quench the holy spirit so you got those two words grieve and
quench so it's clear that I can quench The spirit or I can grieve the spirit now does that make me Sovereign at those moments no it doesn't God is Sovereign in allowing himself to be grieved allowing himself to be quenched he knows when he can give leash to my old nature and I do something foolish and he will do that for his Sovereign purposes so the way I'm posing the question then Sharif is Why does God ordain in this church age that there be such slow sanctification and the best I've been able to see in
the scriptures is that I need a long period of success and failure in order to know both the preciousness of his grace and the depth of my sin and God knows how much Grace I I mean triumphs I need in Grace in order to be held onto and hold on to Him in order to cherish him as I ought and he knows how much struggle I need to go through in order to cry out to him as I ought and how much to depend on and and Delight in his his grace uh you know it's
it's not just true with regard to physical things that almost nobody says the the days of my life in which I learned most about the greatness and goodness of God are the Bright Days the Sunny days the Carefree days the easy days I've never heard anybody say that ever I've only heard people say the days in which I met God most deeply and the days in which I came to love him most fully are the hard days and the hardness is not just cancer it's not just the sudden loss of a of a spouse or
a child it's also when I have done things that brought things on myself when I have sinned and Been slow to be Sanctified and I are brought through out into light and I realized I could have been lost he could have let me go he could have thrown me away and he didn't and you love him the more you know who loves more the one who's been forgiven more the one who's been forgiven less so that's my basic answer Sharif of why such slowness of of sanctification it is a a wise and loving and good
Sovereign God Who knows how many successes we need in the Christian Life and how many failures we need in the Christian life in order to make it to the end giving him most glory for his Grace thank you thank you Mr John um I I have a follow-up question which has to do with the rewards I'm I just remember now John and James when they asked Jesus Christ so that one of them may sit one on his right hand One on his left hand and Jesus answers you don't know what you are asking for and
it's my father is going to give this place for some for some people so what do you think of this because it's this the the growth or in in maturity and sanctification is also related to his words and I understand that even our rewards um are because his grace is working in Us so he is rewarding his grace in our lives but but what you what do you think of this how do you perceive this idea of Rewards I I affirm it I affirm your view I believe that there are a degree differing degrees of
rewards in heaven different degrees and and um since everybody will be completely happy in the presence of God with no Vestige Of sin therefore we have to put together degrees of reward with complete happiness for everyone and the way theologians have done that for a long time and it sounds right to me is to say that the nature of the rewards is essentially capacities of enjoying God differing capacities since everybody will enjoy God as fully as they are Capable of given the way God has structured them others will have greater capacities now here's here's a
text you see what you think about this text it says in the second Corinthians for that this slight momentary Affliction is working for us and a degree of Glory a great degree of Glory now that word is Carter godzamai and it means produce bring about Not just followed by so this my my wrestling right now you know let's just use pulp I mean I hope Paul is ranked way ahead of me in heaven oh my goodness if if he's not ranked way ahead of me in rewards and capacities for Joy a great Injustice will have
been done I think because the the sufferings that Paul willingly endured and he says this slight momentary Affliction is producing a Great glory for me so I think there's a causal connection between faithfulness in suffering and greater Rewards and though that greater reward is a glory it's a it's a capacity to see glory and taste glory and reflect Glory like Paul said when he's talking about the resurrection he said the seed is sown and and they're raised and there's all kinds of different glories as they're raised like the stars in in the Sky and I
think that's a beautiful thing you know Edwards Jonathan Edwards Has This Magnificent section on why there won't be any Envy and there won't be any resentment and there won't be any boasting in the new heavens and the new Earth even though there will be greater degrees of Glory and it's beautiful because the more Glory you have the more humble you are The more likely you are to look at those with less Glory with great delight and appreciation I mean the way he describes it is just breathtaking and I think diversity of Glory among the saints
will make Heaven the more beautiful and the more glorious because it will call forth from the Saints virtues that we were very bad at in this age we are a very envious group right I mean I look at some of you guys that say I'd like to be more like that I like more like that I'd Like to be more like that that's not a good thing and I think in in heaven we will be very diverse not only ethnically I think that will probably be preserved in some way but but in terms of Glory
shining in ways that Cora correspond to faithfulness in this world and we will all be happy with that I think it will make Heaven a happier place because we treat each other so well in in view of all those differences Thank you let's move on and go to Canada Pascal Dino from Quebec Canada you have a question from Pastor John yes well thank you for uh the privilege of being part of that I really uh enjoy that uh that book it really feeds the mind and warms the heart but uh I also have to say
that one of the first book I read that when I became a Christian was this one in French it is called Palm pleaseronzier it's a Desiring God we Could translate it uh back to English literally like taking pleasure in God and I think that in your work Providence uh you show us how to take pleasure into a uh a god that is uh acting uh in in this world so my question um for you uh I live in uh in a French speaking culture uh in Quebec uh which has been for a long time dominated
by Roman Catholicism it's not so much right now it's more secularized and a lot of the French World also was in France and In French speaking Europe and so uh this culture has a notion of God's Providence but usually and I'm not uh arguing if it's uh in the the official Theology of the Roman church but in in the the general view of Roman Catholic of Providence it is usually limited to spontaneous and occasional actions that are almost solely bring good good things to people and the Evangelical community here in Quebec is largely drowned from
Catholicism and as a similar view of God's Providence as something temporal on-demand action of God what do you think is good or deficient or incomplete in this perspective of God's Providence well you know the word Providence let's just step back and make a clarification with regard to the word and then maybe step into the reality of what you're asking the word isn't in the Bible Providence isn't in the Bible Like so many other precious theological words that we we love like discipleship counseling evangelism they're not in the Bible either so if if a person says
to me who's a Roman Catholic or somebody who's come out of the Roman Catholic Church this is what I think Providence is I'm going to have to ask them defined by whom and if they say defined by me then I say Okay if if that's your definition I've got nothing more to say um because if we if we Define words ourselves and say this is my definition then by definition it is what it is um but if they say well I think it's biblical I think what I think is biblical then I would say okay
now now we've got some common ground let's look at the Bible and see whether that's that Reality not just the word but the reality that you're talking about is in the Bible and if if they think the oversight of God the rule of God the governance of God is limited to these points where he interjects himself so that you say oh yesterday that was just an act of Providence when in fact everything is in Act of Providence then you've got texts you can you can go To and you know this whole um event today began
with Matthias quoting Psalm 46 in his prayer enough Psalm Isaiah 46 I am God and there is no other I am God and there is none like me declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done and Mathias stopped right there I said oh great that would be an opportunity for me later to finish to Finish this because the next word says accomplishing all my purposes all my purposes I accomplished every one of them everything I do I everything I purpose and I plan I do and so I would say
the very meaning of God this is probably what I'd say to a Roman Catholic person I'd say the very meaning of God's godness is that he not only knows the end from the beginning but he plans the end from the beginning and he accomplishes his Plans and it includes everything here would be an example maybe maybe this would help them one of my favorite texts on Providence and it is a mind-boggling text is James 4 where he says come now you who say today or tomorrow we will go up to such and such a town
and spend a year there in trade and get gain you don't know about your life you are just a Mist here today gone tomorrow instead you ought to say If the Lord wills and then two things if the Lord Wills we will live and do this or that like if you take another breath Providence if you die in two minutes Providence God's will and this or that just means everything right it's just down to the nitty-gritty of I'm going to the grocery store this afternoon no you May not if God Wills you'll go to the
grocery store this afternoon and you know what John James says next he says if you don't talk that way it's arrogance in other words if you say I'm going to the grocery store this afternoon without at least the subconscious confession if the Lord Wills your words are arrogant this is one of the reasons I am so I care so deeply about the doctrine of Providence because that text says if you don't get Providence right you live a life of arrogance so that text plus so many others like every hair of your head every bird that
falls from the sky is from your father that that's Jesus way of saying there are no Maverick molecules to quote RC Sproul Um so that would be my my Approach I think to the to the Roman Catholic person let's start with clearing up the definition and then we go to the Bible and from the Bible we'd go to their nature of God in Isaiah 46 and then we'd go to specific texts that talk about the meticulous detailed will of God in bringing everything to pass but then I guess uh the person would Uh ask back
um how cannot God be the author of evil then right that that is what they would ask back and they should um and I would State a principal and then I would try to show them why I believe in the principle and here's the principle and uh let me just preface the principle With see if it'll lose my thought here um many times preachers are told that they need to contextualize their message and uh and my counter to that is yes like if you guys were not speaking English I'd be lost right now that's contextualization
um but we also need to create categories instead of just contextualizing with the Categories people already have so one of the categories people don't have in their heads usually is this God can ordain that evil be without being evil that makes sense at least the words are clear the reality might be puzzling God can ordain that evil be without himself being Evil so that I would state to them that's my that's my principle that I believe is true now here's here's some reasons why I believe that's true from the Bible now if they're Christian I
would probably go to Acts 4. where um it says that Herod and Pontius Pilate and the Jewish peoples and the Gentiles were gathered together to do what your hand and your plan predestined to take Place namely murder the son of God so God ordered Herod he ordered pilate he ordered the soldiers and he ordered the the Jewish crowds to cry crucify him he ordered it all together to see to it that the worst sin in the world happened the murder of the son of God and in doing it not only was he not sinning he
was saving you know I said a minute ago one of the reasons I'm so big on Providence is Because if we don't embrace it as we all we live lives of arrogance James 4 16. but here if you don't have Providence you don't have the gospel in other words if God himself is not orchestrating the death of the Son of God the murder of the son of God then Christ has not died for my sins and if Christ has not died for my sins I'm still in my sins and I'm hopeless in this world I
mean there is a this is not A marginal Doctrine we're talking about here this is a Doctrine this Providence over sin is that without which we don't have gospel you can't have a Christ crucified for sinners from the father sent from the father ordered by the father bruised by the father Isaiah 53 without Providence so that would be my my basic answer and I would pause there and I would look at them and say Do you think my principle is at least possible that God can ordain that sin be without himself being a sinner and
if they say that's impossible I would say I would say you're you're basing that on prior um rational conceptions rather than exegetical biblical observations and that's not the way we should approach reality let's go to The Afghani in oh sorry Beware did you want to say something no sorry best guy um from Moscow Russia yeah gradient password John again I had a privilege to meet with you several years ago in Russia Samara we got a great lunch together actually twice that wasn't a long time ago wasn't it and you've been waiting here in Moscow for
years on behalf of millions of Russians I'm saying come come come back thank you and Uh by the way your book the premises of appreciation got impression just been published recently in Ukrainian Russian before we had only one chapter first chapter book and now we have the whole book uh my question is uh correlates a little with Conrad but in a Russian context Russian people believe in destiny so many ministers cannot accept a doctrine of Providence because they feel it Carries some Pagan fatalism deprives god of love and weakens missionaries ill how would you answer
these brothers who hold this view so you have any wisdom or advice on how we stood approach this conversation I will say that this adds fuel to the debate between Calvinists and Armenians encouraged by semi pellegiance of Russian Orthodox Church yeah yeah that is a very very common response and objection that it uh If you believe in the overarching all-pervasive detailed all embracing Providence of God you turn God into a fatalist and life becomes Que Sera Sera what will be will be and um there's no point in praying there's no point in evangelizing and there's
no point in getting out of bed um we know that uh the Bible doesn't assume that since prayer and evangelism and getting out of Bed are all commanded um I think maybe I would start because if if I'm talking to a person who loves missions they love seeing people saved rescued from perishing I feel like I'm standing with a brother you know I'm on common ground with you that's why I wrote this book did you notice the dedication of the book the book is dedicated to missionaries Who've given their lives and who will yet give
their lives to spread the Great gospel under the confidence God can get it done so I would start by saying my conviction is that Providence doesn't hinder missions it empowers missions and then maybe before I go to texts I would go to history and say you know in the modern missionary movement anyway say since the 1790s they've been Calvinists These these people that have spent their lives to reach the Nations have by and large been people who believe in the absolute Providence of God there I can find no evidence historically that missions has been driven
more by Armenian convictions than by reformed convictions I don't think that is true and so they may not know their history and so that may not carry any weight with them at all and so we'd have to go to to Actual texts well here would be one when when the Lord Jesus met Paul on the Damascus Road and commissioned him later when he told that story I think for the third time in chapter 26 he quoted Jesus in verse 17 and 18 I think of Acts 26 I am sending you to open their eyes that
they might be saved from brought from Darkness to light from the power of Satan to God that they might receive forgiveness of sins in a place among those who are Sanctified by faith in me go Paul open their eyes so he's telling a human being to do what he cannot do Open the Eyes of the human heart and Paul tells us very clearly how how the eyes of the human heart are opened acts I mean Ephesians 1 17 he prays that God would Open the Eyes of their hearts and in second Corinthians 4 6 let
God says let there be light that they might see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ and so I put those two things beside each other the go do this Paul go do what you cannot do I'll do it as you do it I will work through you and I would say then it's the confidence that God will work sovereignly to save Sinners that gives people hope That they can do evangelism with some measure of Hope around the world let me let me give you a a practical
story when I went to Urbana 67 now Urbana the big student missionary conference back in the 60s 9 000 students at that time and as I recall it was it was either John Alexander or Warren Webster and I can't remember which was on a panel and a student they let students ask questions in those days from the Audience of nine thousand they'd come to a microphone and the student asked him um why would you be a missionary if you believe in predestination because if they're predestined it can be saved anyway so why go and his
answer was something like this and I'm I'm there as a what 67 a 21 year old student um very much struggling with these things at the time and he said when I went to uh Pakistan 20 years ago I said exactly what you said that what's the point of doing missions if you believe in predestination and so I went and now seeing the impossibility of saving sinners including Muslim sinners the impossibility of humans doing that he said now I say if I didn't believe in The Sovereign Grace of predestination And Sovereign calling and Sovereign saving
I would not be a missionary I wouldn't go without it that conviction has held many people and and frankly right now in my life at Desiring God We're Dreaming Lord God help us to know while we have any breath left while we still have some freedom on the internet how can we bless the Nations and we've got in our head a special event in the fall of 2022 where we want to do a special kind of missions Thing well that's that that's just a concrete illustration Desiring God is through and through calvinistic it's just through
and through reformed and these 20 30 people that I work with are on the edge of their seats to reach the Nations what's that about it's it's it's because they believe the sovereignty of God has caught them up into a movement that cannot be defeated this gospel will be preached throughout the whole world as a Testimony to all the nations and then the end will come it can't fail and the reason it can't fail is because God's Providence so I would just counter that fatalism and say that's not true biblically it's not true historically it's
not true in my life Don't Let It Be True in your life amen let's go to uh Latin America Miguel Nunez um Would you ask your question please hi Pastor John thank you for the time you've given to us uh section five of your book you speak about God being Sovereign over life and death and I think the Bible is very clear on that um I have one question in three parts uh what would you say to our people who had been so afraid of getting covered because of the suffering that comes with It that
would be part a Part B under the Providence of God can we see covet basically as a medical occurrence or possibly perhaps as a judgment from from God or perhaps to say it can be National of both uh it's a judgment from God through a natural disease in either case how can problems uh help bring peace to Believers in the middle Of this pandemic so if you give us your wisdom I would appreciate it yeah yeah with regard to the the first part um fear um I think we'd all agree that one of the most
common commands in the Bible is fear not um God really doesn't want us to fear Matthew 6 verses 25 to 33 don't be anxious about Your life what you should eat or drink and what you should put on or about your body what you should wear life is more than food and the body more than clothing and he goes on to give as I count them eight reasons for not being fearful or anxious in that one paragraph of Matthew 6 3 25 to 33. so I'd start there and say God's will for his people is
not that they live in fear and of any of any kind now that doesn't Mean he doesn't want us to be uh thoughtful about inappropriate risks I I think it's a sin to risk your life for an unworthy cause I shouldn't say this out loud like I think skydiving is ridiculous as a sport right skydiving during wartime to save people is is worth risking your life jumping out of An airplane for fun that's weird um because one mistake and you're dead why would you do that so it's a precious life God has given your life
he doesn't mean you to throw it away or take unnecessary risks however as we walk in obedience to him he wants us to be at peace that passes all understanding and not be controlled by fear and I think the doctrine of Providence is crucial there because if you get the disease you have to be able to trust that he's in charge and he knows what he's doing and he hasn't dropped the ball or made a mistake in any way and he loves you as much with the disease as without and he has purposes either by
life or by death for you that's the kind of confidence that I think protects us from paralyzing fear um Now remind me of the second half of your question can we see covid-19 basically as the medical occurrence or could it possibly be a judgment from God perhaps being worked out through the deceased right right I I think um we should be slow to make pronouncements about the specific purposes of God in anyone's life either by way of judgment or purpose through a pandemic or through an Accident that happens from our standpoint however so I'm just
protecting myself there against becoming foolish in thinking that I can read Providence I don't think Providence the doctrine of Providence exists so that we can read the will of God off of it the Bible exists so that we can read the will of God off of whatever we're looking at Providence is not a book to be read in detail It's a power that gives us confidence that the Bible can be trusted in detail so nevertheless there are enough statements about God's sovereignty in all things in the Bible and why he does them that we can
make statements about why a pandemic would come I think in my little book coronavirus in Christ the theme that ran through the whole book was God's fundamental Purpose is to summon the world to repent and live a life that shows the Supreme value of Jesus Christ that's the purpose of the pandemic stop doing or thinking or feeling whatever you were doing and thinking and feeling contrary to Christ and bring your life around into alignment with the infinite value of Jesus Christ I don't say that because I'm a prophet or can read Providence I say it
because that's what the Bible teaches everything is for That's what the purpose of the universe is and since God ordains all things the pandemic is in his Providence and that's what he wants it to to be and to do now with regard to to judgment yeah it could be it could be and I think if if I were living a life of sin walking in defiance of God and blaspheming his name and I got Providence I would cry out to God I'm sorry have mercy upon me I won I would and so I think individually
we can experience the various providences of God in various ways you know it says in Romans chapter 2 verse 4 that the the kindness of God is meant to lead you to repentance but you by your hardness and unrepentant heart are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of Wrath well that's not a pandemic that's sunshine That stock market's going up that's Health in your bodies that's success at work all of that is God's Providence to save your soul and if you don't turn to God because of all the prosperity in your life all
the health in your life and the financial goodness in your life you are throwing Grace right back in his face so God God is always at work whether it's hard things like pandemics or easy things like Health God is always Speaking to us and moving us toward toward Christ so I I think it is a medical event no doubt about that I praise God for medicines uh I am vaccinated and I'm glad it was a moral thing to work through for me very seriously because of the involvement of fetal cell lines in this whole process
that I don't want to be involved in the killing of innocent babies and I know that fetal cell lines are involved in All of them not just some of them some by way of testing some by way of production and therefore I had to work through serious moral issues in order to believe that it was a loving and wise thing for me to be to be vaccinated so all that just to say it is a medical event and we must think through it at that level as well as the judgment uh level our time is
slowly coming to you close yeah Miguel sorry can I ask you a Question Pastor John related to what you just said would it make a difference to you um if you know that these cell lines were obtained in the 1970s from aborted feeders uh some of which and I don't know if all of them but some of which perhaps were not murder but rather in natural abortion that took place and these are cell lines that are descendants of a cell line obtained back in the 1970s Because that seems to be the case so I was
wondering if that was yes yes that that was what I understood to be the case and so I had to work through um both that factor was the child in the early 70s aborted for the sake of the sales uh or not that was one factor then the very the very meaning of cell lines meaning generation after generation I've Treated into thousands of generations of these cells that are used all over the world in virtually every kind of medicine in other words what one doctor told me he said look if if you want to avoid
any kind of secondary tertiary involvement of fetal cell lines you will not be able to take any medicines at all for virtually all diseases that would cause your death because they're all involved some some way And then there were numerous other factors there were some videos I watched from a medical doctor a Christian that really helped me over the hump that I would not necessarily be condoning experimentation with fetal cell tissue by getting a vaccination there are other ways to oppose abortion and oppose the killing of babies for the sake of medical research than to
avoid getting a shot but I'd have to uh go back and get all My notes out because my wife and I took several months really of agonizing thought to work our way through and we were we were willing to forego the shot if if it meant making a right commitment to fetal life these are these are important issues to talk about but I think I would like to bring the call back to um the topic of Providence and I would like to bring in a question from China that was sent to me from a pastor
in China and he asked the following question for you Pastor John some Chinese Christians feel that God is unfair in Providence there are people and places enjoying material riches and freedom of worship while in some other places Christians are under persecution threat and death sometimes we feel that in God's Providence the latter is used like a sample or lesson to teach and encourage the former but not loved by God How to how to counsel Christians in this mindset and feel bitterness toward God well that last that last part of the question is very helpful um
I start biblically with the conviction that none of us deserves anything good from God at all the only thing John Piper deserves is destruction And therefore if there are differences in Mercy then none of us deserves more or less and God is simply making choices according to the freedom of his grace where to bring Mercy to Bear more fully and where to bring it less fully to bear that's where I start I I don't think we I don't think human beings ever ever ever have a right to accuse God of treating them less well than
they deserve I don't think God ever treats people less well than they deserve ever nobody which is a huge commitment God ought not ever to be faulted with how he treats anybody since his treatment of anybody is always better Than they deserve until they go to hell and hell is where deserve reaches its just consummation so that's the first thing I'd say is that a prosperous land A persecuted land a prosperous Church A persecuted church are all owing to God's free Grace so that nobody should boast over anybody and nobody should resent anybody and nobody
should feel that they are being wronged by God the second thing I would say Is that one of the reasons God ordains differences and he really does I mean all you have to do is look next door you don't have to look to any different country to see that there is a infinite variety of how things go well for some people and bad for other people and there seems to be no correlation between what kind of people they are things go really well for bad people and things go really Badly for good people good in
the sense that humans would recall good and you don't have to look very far this was a this was what the psalmist wrestled with continually why do the wicked prosper um God is unfair I would say not realizing that nobody deserves anything from God but I would say and it really circles back to the earlier question of uh why is there such slowness in in sanctification why is there so much diversity of rewards God ordains that if If things go well for me Psalm 67 is crystal clear that Prosperity comes that the Nations might hear
the gospel that the Nations praise you God let all the nations praise you is why Israel was prospering so I would say those of us who live in lands where there's freedom and prosperity have a much higher call Upon Our Lives to be a blessing and to spend ourselves and our resources for the sake of the suffering Church And the unreached church then others do so that's that's one way that bitterness might be minimized and then I would say which was implied I think in the question that there is a role to play for the
suffering church around the world toward the prosperous church that the prosperous Church very very badly needs to hear because things are are learned about God in trial and in prosperity and in I mean Poverty and in Affliction that are not learned in prosperity I I think probably America being one of the most prosperous nations in the world is one of the hardest places to be a Christian of a really radical kind I mean we life is so saturated with material things and with media and uh with Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and Tick Tock and
and endless movies and endless TV shows that people are just drowning in worldliness And I I sometimes think I just like to leave this place I would like to go someplace where life is much simpler much harder and where maybe my sense of authenticity would flourish rather than being compromised the way it feels here almost inevitably so drawing attention to the fact that when God ordains diversity of blessing there are purposes of Grace the the more well to do called out by that to spend themselves and their resources for the Nations and for the suffering
church and the the suffering church called by God to teach the world what one can learn in those kind of difficult situations that we can't overhear so we have to trust that God knows what he's doing and we're not fatalists at that point we're we should never say oh well I guess he ordained that Nation to be poor and I guess he ordained this nation to be prosperous and that church to suffer and us not to suffer No you're always leaning into each other's lives to lift each other's burdens bear one another's burdens and so
fulfill the law of Christ thank you I'd like to end with one very simple question here from from eye contacts in Germany um I have been approached by T by people Tom and again who said because of very real and and severe personal suffering they they might in a way from the Bible Belief in God's Providence but they can't rejoice in it because it feels just so hot and they struggle with this God can you help us to rejoice in God's Providence in the midst of really hard circumstances yeah yeah well I'm so glad I
have a Bible because without the Bible I think I would hear somebody say that and and I would just put my hand over my mouth And feel utterly presumptuous to speak into their lives because I haven't suffered like they've suffered so what do I have to say I mean how can how can I presume to to pronounce to you what God's will is if if it's just based on your suffering and mind not suffering so as a pastor you know you know pastors are called to preach the whole Council of God and yet pastors have
only lived one life and they're speaking to people several Hundred people maybe who have lived many different lives and they're very different than his life with much more suffering and much more and he's supposed to speak to them indeed he is and the reason he they can is because he's got a Bible the reason he can is because he's got a Bible so so I would say to them well let's just start here I totally realize where you're coming from and feel what you feel how it is not easy to Rejoice in suffering and yet
James 1 Romans 5 First Peter 1 Matthew 5 12 and on and on rejoice when people persecute you and slander you and say all kinds of evil against you for great is your reward in heaven or rejoice in we rejoice in our afflictions knowing that afflictions work patience and patience works are provenance and approviveness works hope and recounted all joy when you meet various trials and Let trials have their full effect so that you might be lacking in nothing and on and on and on the I would just ask them do you agree that this
is not John Piper's opinion says this this this is what the Bible teaches now and they probably say yeah I know it's in the Bible I'm just telling you it's hard Pastor John and I would say absolutely I know it's hard and let's let's try this and this might be a good place to to end if That's what we're doing um I find that in my little bit of suffering that I have had to taste um fixing my eyes on Jesus who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross I mean just
this morning I read in Mark uh that list of words the son of man must go to Jerusalem and there he will be handed over and he will be condemned and he will be mocked and he will be Spit upon and he will be scourged and he will be crucified and he will rise if you just take that list and realize what he walked through his whole life but especially in the last hours and he did it all didn't deserve any of it and he did it all for me then it might be that the
words of Peter that we are to follow in his steps who left us an example uh so that he though he wasn't though he uh didn't didn't sin he was reviled And we're supposed to follow in his steps with submission so just fixing our eyes on Jesus I think is one of the great helps to say we can do this we can rejoice in our suffering and here's the second thing I would say you know Joy isn't the same as tearless happy go lucky praising they might think oh to Rejoice you're supposed to be that
kind of happy but Paul said in second Corinthians 6 10 sorrowful yet always rejoicing so for Paul Joy was the kind of thing that could exist simultaneously with weeping and I just I just read my journals recently about my mother's death in 1974 when she was killed and I got the phone call I was 28 years old and when they told me she was dead in a bus accident I went to my room and I knelt down and I wept probably harder than I've ever cried in my life And for those two hours or so
that I was crying I was rejoicing not that she was dead but I was rejoicing that she was saved I was rejoicing that she hadn't suffered a long time I was rejoicing that she was in my heaven in heaven I was rejoicing that my dad who was with her was only injured and not killed I was rejoicing that I had her for 28 years as the best mom in the world and I mean I had about these five or six things and my heart Really was glad and I was crying the whole time it was
one of the most painful moments of my life so I would try to help the person say can you imagine that can you imagine a kind of joy that is um durable during tears and not just come after tears amen thank you very much thank you Pastor John for giving us the time and To answer questions from all over the world thank you gentlemen for all your good questions and Pastor John would you close us was a word of Prayer I'd love to thank you man it's been a privilege to be with you father I
ask for Mercy that you would cancel out any thing that I have said that's not faithful to your word not helpful not loving And anything that has been said that Accords with your word that is true that is helpful would be given a booster as it were to make it more powerful in the lives of people who listen thank you for these Partners In The Gospel all over the world what encouragement to my heart I Praise You for Your Grace manifest in their lives I ask you to keep these men faithful so that they don't
make shipwreck of Faith or bring any reproach upon the gospel use them mightily in Their spheres I pray for the glory of your name and the good of your church so take this effort Lord and multiply its Effectiveness for spreading the gospel all over the world and strengthening your church and advancing your mission glorifying your name through Christ I pray these things amen amen ities foreign
