How To Create LASTING Change (America's Government Teacher Sharon McMahon & Ryan Holiday)

So many of the big and important and lasting changes, especially in American society, have have been enacted by people who just decided, I'm just going to try. [Music] Where in California did you grow up? Sacramento or outside Sacramento? Yeah. Yeah. It's warm up there. It's a little warmer up there than it is in Minnesota. Mhm. Yeah. And how did you end up here? Uh, so I moved here. Well, I moved to New Orleans when I was writing my first book. Yep. And then I moved to New York because I thought you had to live there

as a writer. That's where all of the writers live and I hated it. And then we moved to Austin and then we decided, hey, if we're going to live in Texas, we should live in Texas. Texas. We should have a Texas lifestyle. So, we've been out here a long time. And then and then we were commuting into Austin and then we thought there's this like amazing little town. And so, we have the studio and the bookstore and we have a bunch of different stuff in this little town. Yeah. And this is the life. That's so

great. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Well, I loved the book. I think it's awesome. Thank you. That's so kind. Was Nikki your editor? No. Um, well, she was for a little while. Yeah, cuz my editor went on maternity leave. That happens a lot. That is the most common thing in Publishing. Yep. My editor I have a problem with it. No, just everyone's on maternity leave all the time in publishing. Yes. Well, my editor first of all quit the company um and went to go work for a startup. Oh. and decided she did not want to

work in tech sales. Yeah. And then came back to publishing and then went on maternity leave. So there were a couple little time periods where I was working with Nikki and Nikki bought my first book. Yes. Nikki's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nikki is was my editor's boss. Yes. Yeah. Was like the editor editor. Yeah. Yeah. Who and who are you working with now? Uh Adrien. Oh, okay. Who was Nikki's boss? But then Nikki went over here and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Adrienne and Nikki were both in my show in New York uh a couple weeks

ago. Um they're both great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who's your agent? Steve Hanselman. Where's he at? He is at he has his own Little shop called Level Five, but he's compares his agent and a couple other people, but he's sort of a he's like a figure that that doesn't exist in publishing much anymore. He's like a a gentleman agent. Yeah. you know, like there's a where he kind of works on a handful of things. That's all he does. But I actually I'm I feel like I'm one of the only people I did a book with my

agent. He did all the translations in the Daily Sto. That's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. So we uh he he took my first book to Nikki and then I've been at Portfolio the whole time. Yeah. Have you overall you're happy at Portfolio? Yeah. Yeah. I mean I'm still there. Yeah. I'm sort of in the offshoot of Portfolio, which is their new offshoot, which is the thesis. Yes. So, yeah, it's been Yeah, obviously your first book is a big There's a big learning curve, right? Yes. Yeah. Well, you don't know what you don't know. And Then you I

think this is true for people listening who are not in publishing and what does it have to do with me? When you start in a new domain, you assume that the people who brought you in or hired you have done a long time. You assume they know what they're doing. So you there's a lot of deference. Some of that is deserved. Some of it is not deserved. And so knowing like it's not till you do it and and then you have all the things that you wish you'd Listened to your own instincts about. Mhm. Uh

that like for instance, my first book is called Trust Me I'm Lying, which was I believe Nikki's idea, and it's great as a book title. If I knew people would call me a liar for the next 15 years, I maybe would have thought le I would have considered the larger picture of what I book. Yeah. Makes sense. It's It's an eye-catching title. Yes. But yet you're you're pegged as a liar for the rest of your life. Yeah. So you so you just don't know you don't know how it fits into the larger picture of things

and they yeah they know a lot of stuff and then they if they knew everything they wouldn't have hired you to begin with right like there there's you kind of have this like oh I'm glad to be there but like actually they're glad to have you. That's right. But that can feel egotistical to think and so again the difference can get you in trouble. Yeah. You also realize Exactly how little they do to sell your book and how much they rely on you to sell your own book. Yeah. Um that's what they bought. Actually, you

thought they bought the book. No. But actually they bought your ability. They bought a marketer. Yeah. They bought somebody who can market their ideas. Well, I think about that all the time when I talk to authors is like you have to realize they hear good book ideas all day. Yeah. So They and at some level they're all equal. Mhm. They bought your idea because they thought it was good and they thought it would sell and those and they thought specifically they could trust you to sell it. And so if you think, "Oh, but I thought

this is your job." You're going to be sorely mistaken. Yeah, you definitely are. And what is also very eye openening as I know you're a small business owner. It's it's eye opening to realize that 90% of Their products lose money. Yes. uh and uh make are failures in their mission. Uh and it's when you extrapolate that to any other small business or even large business. Imagine if 90% of the products at Target lost money. Yeah, that's absurd. That's an absurd way to run a business. Um so that's part of what what is puzzling to me

about it is that um yes, most books never make money. Um, but they also don't seem to be Particularly motivated to make the titles they do buy make money. Well, I'll take you through the bookstore later, but the reason for that is I wrote actually a book about this, but the reason for that is because The Great Gatsby's is doing pretty well. Mhm. So, like there's not a lot of urgency. Like imagine you were running a company that had the library of not just like the greatest books of the last generation, but the Odyssey's doing

pretty well, Too. And so and so is uh every Jane Austin's books are selling pretty well these day. So like they they have you're thinking about it's like, hey, how's my book selling the last six months? and they're going, "We're in a 60-year sales cycle with, you know, Falner these days or what?" Right. So, they just have they have a library. The the building in Manhattan is not paid for by our books. No. And so, so the the library and and media is the same. The Long game, the long game is really it's difficult for

the average business owner to get their mind around. Yeah. the idea that like over the we hope that over the next 60 years a percentage of the titles that we buy will make us enough money to pay for this high-rise in Manhattan. They're excited if your book is still selling one year from now. Like the vast majority of income comes from titles that are one year old or older and the vast majority of books do not become Those books. And so yeah, most people sit down and they go, "Well, what's happening right now in the

world? How do I comment on that?" And I mean, look, I read your book before it came out, but like I and I have a podcast, so I'm not representative, but I most of the books that I read are very old. Mhm. Like, yes. 50 years old. And they're but they're new to me. So, that's all I care about. So, people are way People's focus is way too much on what's happening now. And so, the industry is about like, yeah, what's trending right now? And then people don't make things that can endure. Yeah. Yes. I

mean like the advent of sort of book talk uh has been great for a lot of authors but yes who knows what is going to happen to those books 25 years from now or even one year from now. Yeah. The algorithm giveth and taketh away I would say. Well I loved your book. I thought it was a Great idea. I think that's the heavy lifting too is like okay so you have a huge social media following. You have the but how do you that's how do you translate that into a book? You have to like

I think books are one of the hardest mediums to compete in because you're competing against the greatest books of all time that that have such dang power and so how do you come up with a unique angle to talk about these things? Yeah, that's You're you're absolutely right that there's a books have a legacy that other types of media do not. That you know I can post all day on social media and that's going to be gone from the algorithm in 24 hours or maybe one week if you're really lucky. Yeah. Um, so yes, this

idea that like books are somebody's legacy is something that it's not a fact that's not lost on me at all. Um, and yes, how do you compete in this vast this vast sphere of books, Ryan? Well, see, all all of these books, this is this wall is a graveyard of exactly what you're up against. So, Portfolio did send me about five. I was like, give me one of every one of your titles. And so, I use that, but mostly I use this company called Book by the Foot. Have you heard of this company? Yeah. So,

these are all books that were really popular and then nobody wanted anymore. Yeah. Like Elron Hubard. Yeah. Uh, right. Cuz they give a lot of Those away. But like there's Shadow Divers by Robert Kersonen. Incredible book, but was a huge book 15 years ago. So, he probably sold a million hard covers and then those people died and their kids were like or they moved to a smaller house and they're like, "Well, I don't want this anymore." and they all end up at Goodwill and this company goes and gets all these books. So these are you

can you what I sometimes kind of a ego is the enemy I Kind of look through and I go yeah this book was like a cultural sensation for a brief moment and then I bought it by weight. Is that different though than any other kind of media? No. Like I I think about this like you if you listen to like a Spotify playlist, best of the 90s. Yeah. You've heard of 80% of the songs. Then you go 80s, you're like 60% and till you get to a a decade where you're like I don't know any

of these songs. And those Are the big that's a collection of the biggest songs of an entire era. They've sold millions of copies. They've been in movies and you're like nope none of this is registering to me. And so how far do you have to go back to get to that oblivion? You think it's going to be like the the exercise they do in politics is like they'll go who was the vice president three presidents ago. Yeah. And you're like wait and that was the second most famous person in the World or whatever. Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. So, but I mean like is is this idea that you're supposed to be competing against all titles of all time is that an idea that's worth like holding on to exploring like feeling bad about if you don't compete against all titles of all time? Well, there's a passage in Marxist's meditations where he goes, "Vespacian." He goes, "How many people know who that is?" And Vespassian was the emperor like five emperors before Marcus. Actually, the only reason if I think there's a in some language, Vespassian is the root word for toilet because he created like

uh uh public bathrooms in Rome. That was his thing. But so so this is the most powerful important person in the world ruled as an emperor god in the biggest empire of the most famous empire in history and nobody knows who he is. And Marcus Aurelius was saying that like just a couple generations. And so he his point was not okay so you have to really conquer a lot of territory to be more famous than Vespass. He was saying this is a this is a a race you can't win. So opt out. So yeah, I

think when I look at this, I just go every, it's like Shakespeare out, out out brief candle. Uh, every all of these people had their little moment and probably most of their moments were bigger than my biggest moment. And so if if you're going to take your identity And worth from surpassing them, even if you do it, you're going to lose. Mhm. Mhm. I I like thinking about it more in the sense of um you know what somebody said about a character in this book and as Mholland after she dies, they say uh something to

the effect of uh no work for liberty is ever lost for it becomes part of the fabric of the nation. Yeah. And I love thinking about contribution in that way instead of uh how how long can my name be in Headlights? Yes. Or in spot in spotlights. how how long can my name be in the spotlight? Uh I think it's like a perhaps a healthier way to think about things uh in the sense of my contribution becomes part of the fabric of this society. Yeah. There's a famous World War I poem and he has this

line. I used it in the justice book. He says um to you from failing hands we throw the torch. And so if you see these figure it if you see the figures as a person who Moved the ball forward or carried the torch a little bit but that it was part of this continuous battle or this uh perennial march then it's beautiful and each one of them was significant. If you try to in attribute it to any one of them or you go this was the person each individual accomplishment is not that great and ultimately

can be cut cut short whether it's by assassination or they have some personal scandal. So yeah, I think it's about it's about Making your brief contribution with the resources you have the moment of time that you're in and then seeing it as part of this larger procession. That's the only that's the only way to do things and to do it not motivated by ego. Yeah, I totally agree with you. Uh and I think that you know like the people in this book are um are they're great examples of that. Yes. Yeah. where their contributions are

by and large lost to history uh either by virtue of The fact that they died young, they didn't have descendants to keep their memory alive, uh they were intentionally excluded from history uh because they were the wrong color or they were the wrong gender. Um and yet it didn't it does not negate what they did. No. And I I have really been enjoying sort of excavating their contributions. Well, and what they did is actually in in many cases more significant than a lot of people you've heard of. Exactly. Exactly. Uh and I I think it's

actually tremendously encouraging to people who feel I I'm sure you've heard this many times. People feel like nothing I do matters. Nothing I do makes a difference. I I did the I did the things. I made the calls. I wrote the letters. I did the voting. I did, you know, whatever it is. Uh nothing nothing is changing, right? Um, and it can feel very discouraging and it can make you feel uh hopeless as though uh, you know, It makes you retreat into cynicism as though nothing you do will ever move the needle. Um, I think

that's one of the problems. It's not in it's not totally incorrect some of the structural theories uh critical race theory these sort of explanations for the interlocking systems of oppression and discrimination how they have shaped and informed history how we're still living in them. there is uh it's not a nihilism that comes from it but like if you can Track like the great man of history theory at least gives people something to believe in and aim for it. So if you believe that everything is interlocking and structural and it doesn't matter what individuals do that's

also a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you believe you can make a if you don't believe you can make a difference you will definitely not just because you believe you can make a difference doesn't mean you will. But certainly believing that Change is not possible makes sure that it is not possible. That's absolutely right. Yes. If you believe you can't, then you're right. Yes. And I just Yeah. I It's been tremendously helpful, at least for me and from other people that I've heard of to sort of reframe this idea of what it means to make a contribution.

It does not necessarily mean that your name is on the side of a weirdly shaped rocket ship. Right. Yes. Or that you have an Airplane emlazed with your logo. Yeah. Or that it was even appreciated or understood in the moment that it was happening. That's right. Um sometimes if you're ahead of the curve, you're probably not going to be appreciated in your moment or you're not going to be fully appreciated for the magnitude of what you're doing. You might be appreciated by your small group of people or your supporters or believers, but most people are

not. You It's almost a sign that you're not that groundbreaking if everyone likes what you're doing. Yeah, that I think that's totally true. If you look back at some of the biggest change makers in history, they were widely opposed, right? Like the Martin Luther King of the world had a lot of hate in his lift. And not just from white people, by the way. Like a huge percentage of black America thought either Martin Luther King was too radical or not radical Enough. And so, you know, in his own community, he was considered, you know, too

in the middle. Mhm. And and so yeah, there's something about being able to stand alone and do the thing because you think it's the right thing. It's that's such a it's such a big ask for some people. Sure. Right. Like it's such a I would love to hear what advice you have for somebody who feels like they just um like they just don't know if they can do that. Well, I I we often think about like we think of change as this enormous thing as opposed to like I was fascinated I didn't end up doing

a chapter about it in the justice book, but like I was fascinated with um footnotes like how many uh future Supreme Court decisions the stage was set for them in like by a footnote in a descent from a much earlier Supreme Court decision. And so yeah, like that it feels poulry and not Nearly enough to be you know negle uh dissenting in say pi v Ferguson but the argument that he lays out in that decision is drawn upon a generation later and so yeah sure it would would it have been better if he could have

convinced all of his colleagues to not do this morally important thing but he couldn't and so he did the piece of it that he could do and it stood there for a very very long years. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Or even with the Stoics like Kato resists Julius Caesar uh's attempt to overthrow the Roman Republic. He is defeated and he instead of uh live instead of Caesar almost certainly would have pardoned Ko and Kato found that subservience to be morally uh unconscionable and so he kills himself in this incredibly dramatic resistant way. It's it's the ancient

world's version of the monk who lets himself on fire and it has exactly zero effect. Caesar takes over. Uh he's later Assassinated but has nothing to do with Ko. Uh really um and there's like this fascinating uh yeah like so so philosophers would debate like should he have stuck around? Could he? But like 2,000 years later, it's KO that George Washington is modeling himself on and the founders are modeling themselves on. And so, yes, sometimes you do this thing that you're trying to inspire others or send this message and you're Thinking like, I hope everyone

around me sees this, but it may stay dormant for a hundred years. It could stay dormant for a thousand years. So I think the idea of like, hey, I'm going to do what I think is right here and I'm going to send this message. To me, the stoic part of is I don't control whether the message is heard. I only control whether I say it. And let's see where it goes. Yeah, I love that. That's really interesting. I I was uh my wife read Your book and loved it and then my in-laws both read it

and loved it and um I was like trying I was like I was waiting to read it till closer to when you came and I was trying to like guess who was going to be the figures. Were there a bunch that you didn't include that you wanted to? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's also stories of the figures that I wanted to include and and couldn't, you know, like I I think that's always the that's always true of Any sort of non-fiction writer is that you have to you end up with stuff that you wish you

could have included and you just couldn't make it work or whatever. Um there was one aspect of a story in this book that I I'm still convinced is true. Okay. I just couldn't find the documents to prove it after years of looking. Okay. which is that uh one of the characters in this book, my hypothesis uh is that her family was involved in the Underground Railroad. Oh, and which one is this? Anna Jeans. Okay. So, Anna Jeans lives in Philadelphia in the right she's in the right place. She's in the right time. She's a Quaker.

She has the right belief system. She I can put her brothers, you know, she's the youngest of six surviving adult siblings. I can put her brothers in the same room with um uh very prominent workers on the Underground Railroad. Yeah. Um you know, like William Still, they're in the same Room together. They belong to the same sort of abolitionist societies and the Jeans family was very wealthy. Yeah. And uh there's there's almost no chance that the under the people who were, you know, raising money for the Underground Railroad were not hitting up the Jeans family,

right? There's almost no chance. But the other sort of piece of the puzzle that I became really intrigued by is the fact that the Jeans family has a country home. Uh that is where they just Kind of go in the summer that they abandon. Uh and at one point their country home is robbed and somebody steals a painting off the wall that Anna had painted and Anna had an attachment to that painting and she wanted it back. And so there's this big, you know, sort of investigation into who broke into the household, etc. And there

were reports in the newspaper that talk about how um there was food left on the table as though people had left in a hurry. Yeah. And that's not something sure that the genesis would have done. Right. So to me, um it makes sense that they had sort of said, "Okay, you can go ahead and use our house." you know, um go ahead and like if you need to use it, it's it's yours for the using. Uh that somebody had been there who needed to leave in a hurry for whatever reason. Um cuz why would the

jeans have needed to leave in a hurry? Why would they have left food on the table? Yeah. Um and you know, There were not reports that the house was trashed or that vandals were living there or anything of that nature. So that's a whole storyline that I ended up writing up everything that I knew about um about the Jean's family and about um how I you know the evidence that I was able to compile about their involvement in the Underground Railroad. But ultimately um because the Underground Railroad was intentionally secretive. Yeah. And because the Jeans

Family was intentionally secretive, they believed in this sort of um biblical edict that you should not let the right hand your right hand know what the left is doing. uh and that you should give in secret and your reward will come in heaven later. And so they purposely did not attach their names to things. They purposely were not like courtesy of the Jeans family, you know, like that was not their vibe. They didn't even allow their picture to be taken, you know, Like they were very like hardcore, very hardcore about it. Yes. Um so there's

that aspect and then there's also the aspect that the Underground Railroad was also intentionally secretive. They're not going to be like and we stayed at this house. Um, so there's just no documentation that I can come up with that is the smoking gun that says, "And we stayed at Stapley Manor, you know, outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania." Um, as much as I looked, and and the Other thing that's quite possibly true is that, um, the people who were on the Underground Railroad would not have known what that house was called, right? And they would have been

very reticent to give up a description of the house. They would not have known who owned it. they would have just been word of mouth told um you can stay there's that house over there you can stay at if you need to. So there are definitely stories like that that I uh wished that I could have Included and there are aspects of other people's stories too that ultimately did not make it into the book. Well, as I was thinking about this, I was like I don't want to talk about the people in the book that

much because the book's so good. I wanted people to like I think this is like it's a spoiler thing. Like I I feel like you want to So I was going to I was going to tell you some of my favorite small but mighty figures. I'd love to hear them. You can hear out About them. But the concept of like who are these kind of hidden figures of history who punched above their weight? I love characters like that. Yes. So when you're talking about the Underground Rail Railroad, do you know who Thomas Wentworth Higginson is?

Okay. So he's a translator of Epictitus. He's the first one who translates Epictitus in in American English. But so he's a cont he's a professor at Harvard. He's a contemporary of Emerson and all the Transcendentalists, but he's much more radical than they are. So, he's like one of the six who funds uh Tom um uh John Brown. Uh he's uh a couple of those riots where the the fugitive slave catchers would bring would steal people out of Boston. He was like there when they would riot. So he's this kind of a radical abolitionist and he

ends up leading the first black regiment uh of troops in the US Civil War. So there's Colonel Shaw who people know that's what The movie glory is about. He's a little bit before him. They were less distinguished in vows. But so you have this philosopher who is you know not passive like you would think of the Stoics but like engaged in the great struggle of his time. But then he he's also this lover of poetry and art and he meets this he it's this woman sends him his poetry her poetry and he likes it and

he ends up publishing it um which brings her great fame. He's the person Who discovers Emily Dickinson. And so I just love So it's like, you know, if you did any one of those things, that's an incredible life. But just the guy that is funding John Brown is leading black troops for the Union in the Civil War and just on the side discovers one of the great American female poets. I just love I love those kind of Yes. I call them brain tangle moments where you're just like I love knowing that. that is just like

does a little something in my Brain where I'm like that just feels real scratched a little itch I didn't even know I had Yes. Speaking of Emerson, um Emerson was uh potentially um in love with Emma Lazarus. Okay. And Emma Lazarus is the uh woman who writes um the poem that is currently affixed to the base of the Statue of Liberty, the poor huddled masses. Yes. Yes. Um, the new colossus the poem is called give me your your uh tired your poor I'm not thinking of those two things as Overlapping but yeah of course this

is like 1870s 1880s yes your your huddled masses you know weary to whatever um so she writes that as a um she's asked to contribute to this sort of um fundraising effort because of course the United States needed to pay for the base of the Statue of Liberty which was gifted to the United States by France Um and she actually Emma Lazarus was friends with um one of the descendants of Alexander Hamilton. Um and they were They were very good friends with each other after Emma Lazarus dies very tragically and young. Um uh Louisa Hamilton

um discovers this one of her poems in a bookstore. Yeah. uh rediscovers the new colossus in a bookstore and is like this deserves to be on the Statue of Liberty and that it wasn't attached to the Statue of Liberty uh at the Statue of Liberty sort of dedication. It was years later and uh the Hamilton descendant had to uh raise Her own funds to get the brass plaques made and to petition to get it added. But anyway, Emma Lazarus was a relatively well-known poet in her own day, but she was a young Jewish woman who

um she had no no um you know, her family was wealthy. Her dad was a sugar merchant. Uh she never had to work. She was you know, home educated and what she wanted to do with her life was just write poetry. Um, and she begins um getting published and she Begins corresponding with Ralph Aldor Emerson who's significantly older than she is and the letters that exist between them. Yeah. Um are very like and eventually she kind of uh sour on his advances which did seem a little creepy. Maybe maybe not quite creepy but like what

are you doing? You know what I mean? Like you're a 60year-old man. This woman is 23, also married. She's a young woman. Um, but she's flattered by his attention because he's A giant of literature at the time. Um, but he becomes sort of a champion of Emma Lazarus's work and she was again she was relatively well known in her lifetime, but most Americans would not recognize her name. Yes. Right. But we would recognize her contribution despite not being able to pick her face out of a lineup. I have an amazing kids book for you in

the bookstore. Have you read uh Her Right Foot by Dave Edgars? I think I Have. He has a kids book about the Statue of Liberty and it's all based It's all based on this little observation he makes which is that her foot is raised. And his point is that she's not stationary. We think of the Statue of Liberty as this monument to Liberty. No. as opposed to liberty being on the march, which is what she would have represented to France shortly after the abolition of slavery. So, so we see it as because we're generations Past.

Hence, we're seeing it as a celebration of what we have done. That's right. as opposed to a a monument to the doing, which is supposed to be, as we're saying, this perpetual ongoing thing. I love that. And the and the Statue of Liberty also has a broken chain around her foot. Yes. As though she has freed herself from the shackles. And they're not uh, you know, the chain is just kind of like hanging there as though it just recently Happened. Yes. Uh there's a lot of symbolism actually in the Statue of Liberty that I think

kind of goes unnoticed because we see it from afar and it's so large that it's difficult to observe all of these individual elements. But or that kids paid for it. Yeah. It was the first crowd the first crowdfunding campaign was because America was like what are we supposed to do with this expensive? Kids made it happen. Yeah. Totally. I wrote a piece for The Economist about this because there was a a throwaway line I read as a kid in Victor Frankle's Man Search for Meaning where he talks about how he loves the Statue of Liberty,

but he felt like there needed to be a corresponding Statue of Responsibility on the West Coast. And so I did this big piece on the the idea of a statue of responsibility because again, yeah, we think of the Statue of Liberty as being This thing that it was like a celebration of how great we are as opposed to a call to arms. But that also liberty, which America is founded on, confers by definition a certain amount of responsibility. And that is what America's like. I don't like that part. Yeah. No, of course not. No. Uh,

I want to be able to free be free to dump my trash wherever I want. But yes, that's what freedom is apparently to some people. I think about this in my Neighborhood all the time. So yes, it's what uh I don't like that people do it, but if I don't clean it up, it's just going to stay there, right? So the responsibility of, hey, I I I live on my own road and uh the government can't tell me what to do with it also means I can't call the government to clean up someone else's mess.

I have to do it and it's disgusting and I hate it but I try to teach it to my kids. But the idea is like Um the things that everything that's not enumerated in the constitution just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it. Right? And that is again a big part of I think the the fundamental premise of America that your average citizen wants to not oh I didn't agree to that. Like the social con the social contract isn't just your contract with what the government is not allowed to do to

you. It's also the contract of the Responsibilities that are thus inherent on you to take care of. I know that's I think you're absolutely right. I I don't disagree with you at all. But it is it's very um when you start getting into things about social contract, man, there's going to always be people who push back on you who are like, "Oh, that's communist." You know what I mean? That's communist. Uh freedom means freedom to do what I want. If I don't want to participate in that, then I Shouldn't have to. Um but but you're

I mean, you're not wrong at all. Of course. Yes. But you know, the idea that Statue of Liberty, Liberty, enlightening the world. Yeah. Um it's there's a verb in there, right? Like that's continuing to enlighten the world. Uh not liberty enlightened the world. Yes. Um that it is a an ongoing effort to enlighten the world. And I Yeah, I think that's worth remembering. One of the other ones I'm Fascinated with, I'm probably pronouncing his wrong his name wrong, but you know, uh his name was Senator Proxmir Proxm. He was the senator. He might have been

from Minnesota, so I'm probably butchering it the pronunciation if you're not hearing what I'm saying. But he's the one who he he wakes up one day in the 70s and learns that immediately after the foundation of the UN, almost all the countries pass a treaty uh basically banning uh genocide And the US just didn't sign it. We were like the only major country that didn't sign it. and he's like, "This is absurd. We invented the UN. Like, we it's on our soil. We're the main driver of this and we're just like, I don't know if

we're opposed to genocide. That might be inconvenient." And so, uh, he gets up and gives 3,000 consecutive speeches in the Senate pushing for the ratification of this treat. I think it takes like 25 years or it takes this absurd amount of Time. And again, we just take for granted that these things happened because everyone was in agreement about them. And what I love about the characters in your book, Ben, all my favorite historical characters are like if they hadn't done it, it wouldn't have happened. That's right. They forced or forged a consensus that would not

have existed otherwise. and his intellectual predecess predecessor was this guy named Len Lmin uh a displaced European Jew who Lived in America who during the the Nerburgg trials and then the founding of the UN is invents the word genocide which did not exist. He gives the crime a name. And again, you would have think you would think coming out of this horrendous genocide, everyone's like, "Yeah, we definitely need a word for that and we should all be opposed to that thing." But there was not a consensus. It was inconvenient and it Was only the force

of will of this singular human being. It wills a concept into existence. And again, you might go, what is the con the concept doesn't matter? But having a word for something like having a footnote in a Supreme Court decision, it's the only way. It's the most necessary first step in hopefully eradicating or preventing that thing. Yeah. The, you know, I I keep coming back to this idea that history favors the doers. Yeah. And not The critics, right? Um this is true of the entire sweep of history. Uh who are the critics that we look kindly

upon, right? who who are the critics that have the biographies written about them unless they have done something truly terrible with their lives and they're worth remembering as a villain, you know. Um, and the people that history smiles most kindly upon in many ways are the people who just kept doing the next needed thing. I love that phrase in your Book. Yes. That just the next needed thing. The ide and these are people without some grand five-year plan. These are people without access to the levers of power by and large. Uh people without fame and

fortune by and large. People who are often very marginalized by society who just continue to do the next needed thing. And the effects of their actions are still being felt in the United States today in some cases and in some cases the effects of their next Needed thing. Yeah. Yeah. Um it's almost incalculable the effect of that they managed to have outside of the traditional levers of power. Yeah. And that to me is a really interesting um an interesting proposal to think of. We think about how do we make change in society? We always think

about using the levers of government. Yeah. And as a longtime government teacher, I can tell you that's an important component of it. Right. Um, but yet so many of the big And important and lasting changes, especially in American society, have have been enacted by people who just decided, I'm just going to try or they were almost in opposition to government. I don't mean that in the libertarian sense. Like I love Florence Nightingale. Yeah, she wouldn't be a small but mighty figure who's not really American, but like you think of her and every one of her

reforms was done in the teeth of enormous Uh army bureaucracy and government inaction and inertia. And so like because it was inconvenient, because it was expensive, because she was a woman. And so often what these people do like there's a there's a famous poem about Florence Nightingale where she's the lady with the lamp and this is all the art and one of her aunts who uh volunteered with her uh was like she hated that. She was like that's not what she did. She it was like she's like the Image of her is at two in

the morning with a lamp doing [ __ ] paperwork, you know, like her her force she was a bureaucratic warrior and a reformer and and that like often times yeah that next needed right thing is like let's let's help this person and let's help that person and let's set up this hospital or let's do this campaign. It's and and and and yes, so much of that is not only not with the government uh levers of governmental power, but it's usually Done with uh in resistance to the powers that be even if they're in agreement like

that's like again with the civil rights movement uh the the the civil rights leaders had a lot of democratic northern democratic support. Yeah. Johnson and Kennedy uh both Kennedys um but they were like you're moving too fast or like hey I have these other concerns and so there was this push and pull they were very astute political fighters who understood hey Johnson Might be sympathetic to me uh as far as the cause but he's only going to do he's only going to support me here if there's political pressure upon him or if events dictate that

he has. And so they were just really savvy at using the media, using public support and all that. Like that's an underrated part of it. I feel like like they're just doing the thing. Yeah. Well, and again, they're doers, right? They're not the critics. They're not the people who are just like, "Oh my Gosh, Johnson is so lazy. Johnson just he's all talk and no action. Like nothing will ever happen." um that that uh would not have yielded the same fruit as people who just did stuff. Yeah. Right. Uh and I think so often we

wait for somebody to come by and we're we're waiting for somebody to come by and give us permission. Yes. To start doing things. We're waiting for uh some group who knows to give us their stamp of approval. And uh you know the Civil rights movement is full of people who did not wait for permission. Yeah. who in fact would have never been chosen. Yeah. Uh I think about people like Claudet Kovven who uh refuses to give up her seat on the bus um well before Rosa Parks does. And she's a 15-year-old girl. Yeah. And um

she says in that moment when the white bus driver tells her that she needs to get out of her seat, she had been sitting in a seat reserved for black patrons and the white Section filled up and so he was trying to force all of the black patrons to move back. Everybody else in Claudet's row gets up and moves back, but she refuses. And she says, "In that moment, I felt the hand of Sojer Truth on one shoulder," who actually was the first person to fight for uh fair seating on a a public accommodation in

Washington DC like a hundred years earlier. Mhm. And the hand of Harriet Tubman on the other. And you know she of course Claudet Kovven is still alive but at the mo at that time she crazy by the way people think this was a long time ago. No not a long time ago. Um she would not have known the phrase history has its eyes on you know because she would not have had seen she would not have seen Hamilton um in the 1950s. But nevertheless, that's exactly what she felt. Yeah. In that moment, that history had

its eyes on her and that she has the courage as a 15-year-old girl to Do what she viewed as the next needed thing, which was to uh resist an unjust system of oppression. Well, to go to your the point about the levers of power also, you know who was opposed to the Montgomery bus boycott, if I remember correctly, the NAACP also like not not once it got momentum, but they had a plan for how they were going to do things. And so often times there's even disagreements within factions or within causes that are largely in

agreement With each other on the timeline, on the right people. That's right. And there is a there is an element of it's ultimately moved forward by the kids who are like hey let's go do it today let's go integrate the counter at Woolworths today and that forces the hand that starts the movement that you know the people at their desks in a big expensive nonprofit in Manhattan are just going to have a different timeline and a different view of prioritization. Totally. And Claudette feels cast aside by the machinery of the movement, you know, because she

gets uh she becomes pregnant. And so she's a pregnant 16-year-old and that is not the face that they want to put on the front of the newspapers. Not in the 1950s. Not in the 1950s. That was not acceptable to be pregnant outside of wedlock. And it certainly was not acceptable to be a pregnant black teenager. Uh and so they she was not the person that they could Have elevated to that status, right? Uh, and so in many ways she feels really salty about it. She feels like, "Listen, I was I was out here doing the

thing before y'all were and I get no credit for it." And then I get I get convicted of crimes. Yeah. Uh, and she finally uh within the last couple of years be gets her criminal record expuned. Uh, and it took literally uh until I want to say it's been with been within the last three to four years that her criminal Record was finally expuned. And only because she fought for it, not because Alabama was like, "You know what? That was our bad. You know, like she had to say, "I actually did nothing wrong here." Yeah.

Uh I was You accused me of things I didn't do. Um it's weird how we tell ourselves we we almost we tell ourselves, it's not just that it's historically untrue, but we tell ourselves a story that's actually like disempowering. So like we tell ourselves Even about Rosa Parks that like, okay, this is this little old lady and she was tired and she's just I have enough. I had enough. And then that's how it happened. And it's like actually no, this lady went to a school where they trained her to be like a an agent of

chaos and a disruptor. like like I think that that's been one of the most eye opening things I've understood in my study of the civil rights movement is they weren't just like brave and they Weren't these like saintly uh naturally endowed heroic figures but they train like they would train like nonviolence wasn't just oh they went to church and that's where they learn nonviolence. No, they would practice getting the [ __ ] beat out of themselves and they would practice having white people say horrendous things to them at these schools and they'd practice not getting

provoked. Like they had all the regular impulses that any human being would have Including hatred and resentment and anger all very deserved. But they conquered that in like the stoic sense of the command of oneself is the greatest empire sense like a soldier. That's how they did it. Yeah. You know, I was talking to somebody about this book uh earlier this week and it's always interesting to hear what other people take away from your own work, right? And the the takeaway that this person had was that every single person In this book had learned how

to suffer. Yeah. and and then they used that suffering for something else. And that was just an interesting uh it was an interesting thought to me that uh everyone has learned how who has made significant change learned how to use their suffering for something. Yes. And and again, we it feels like it's so long ago, but I interviewed Ernest Green a couple years ago, and it Was like it was someone my age's grandfather. Like not my my grandmother went to Little Rock High School, did she? Yeah. Before it was integrated. Uh and like So again,

that's not a story that when my parents talked to me about these things. Yes. Uh when I was a kid, it was distant past then. Not like, oh, grandma could tell you about this, you know, she went to an all white high school. It it it's like, no, this is a long time ago. And it's like, no, these People are still around. Yes, they're still alive. I think about like the Little Rock Nine that was happening in September of 1957, which is when my mother was born. Yeah. She my mother was born in September of

1957. Like that is the that's what that's what was happening in the world when the person who gave birth to me was born. Yeah. uh the idea that this is just some and I know you you deal with a lot more ancient history than the average Joe Ryan, but these events in this, you know, America's a young country. Yeah. Right. And most of these events um happened within just a few generations of us. Yeah. And I think it's also worth reminding ourselves about how far we've come, right? Like there's there's a lot of work left

to do. Um but this the sort of the trajectory that moral arc of the you know the moral arc of the universe um you can see how it in fact does bend toward justice when people work to bend It. I hate that quote. Yeah. Because bends is passive. It it it's saying that it's like it's bending its own weight like a heavy like a rainbow is already bent. No, it it's pulled down. Yes. like a bunch of people people in in your book people I've talked about like people bend it they reached up and they

grabbed it and they pulled it down with their body weight you know and a little bit at a [ __ ] time you know like it it it doesn't just it it's it's bent that way And it by the way other people not only uh resisted them doing it but we're trying to bend it in the other direction that's right it's like I'm writing about Lincoln a lot right now. And I I think we think of Lincoln as the guy who abolished slavery, but the the primary fight of his time, it wasn't it was first

and foremost to stop the active expansion of slavery. So, not just like, oh, like people go, "Oh, he didn't actually want to stop slavery." Actually, what Lincoln was trying to do was not like, it's not like Lincoln was okay with the status quo. And by the way, neither were the slave owners. The slave owners imagined an America where slavery was legal across the entire country and they had their eyes on Cuba and they had their eyes on huge swaths of Mexico, the parts that we hadn't already taken. And like they saw an enormous slave empire

occupying the northern and southern hemisphere. And so It's not just that the arc of history bends towards justice because it doesn't. it's bent that way. But if it is not bent that way, do you know what direction it can go? Like there are awful people who want not just to keep like it's not just their conservative forces who want to preserve the status quo, but there are often very radical forces that want a status want a new reality you can't even [ __ ] imagine. That's so true. A horrendous one. Yeah. Yes. And you can

look no further than Aaron Burr. Yeah. Who decided Yeah. after he killed Alexander Hamilton um that he was going to try to seize portions of North America for himself and contacts people in England and is like, "You want to help me out? I'll be a friend to you if you let me be the ruler of this section over here, this little section of Texas and Louisiana. I would like it for myself, please." Uh and then of course he's put on trial for Treason. Yeah. Um for attempting to do that. he's acquitted. But uh but nevertheless,

the history is full of people who uh are not just um they they're not just uh low-level resistors. Yeah. You know, of like, no, I don't want you to change that. Keep that the same. I think that's how we tend to view people who work in opposition to change makers. Yeah. No, I just want keep to keep things the same. No, there is there is a faction of People who would like to radically remake the country in their own image. They have a profound vision for a different world. Yes. And it's am it's ambitious. Yes.

Yes. And you see that at work today that that uh demon of unrest. Yes. Is a foot in the country today. Yeah. Yeah. Vladimir Putin isn't just like, hey, it would be nice to have some of the stuff in Ukraine. No, he is imagining uh an entire remaking of the European Map just as there are leaders in China and who have a whole version whole vision of the Pacific. Um yeah there the Hitler was a figure of immense vision in a horrendous heinous you know antichrist level way you know like he he imagined uh a

whole continent at the whim of you know not just not really Germany but like his group of people who controlled Germany you know yeah and I mean it yes we Think of the these titans In history, you know, like the the Hitlers and the Putins and the people with vast amounts of resources, you know, uh Vladimir Putin is one of the richest men in the world, right? Um he doesn't actually need Ukraine's resources for himself. He wants it to conquer Ukraine for some other reason. But if you shrink that, you know, it's easy to think

like, well, I'm not Hitler. Yeah. You know, like I don't have I Don't command armies. I don't have the resources of a federal government. Um but yet there are uh groups at work even inside the United States who um don't want to just conserve what we have. Yeah. Who don't want to just slow steady progress over time but who envision a radical reshaping of of the country. Uh some to the extent that they think that portions of the United States should secede. Of course, uh Texas has tried that a couple times. hasn't been Successful at

it yet. Um, but they also have a white Christian nationalist view of what the country should become and that they should remake uh the entire federal government again in their own image to and the family and people's private lives. That's right. Um, so I think it I think it, you know, in addition to the fact that we have made a significant amount of progress, you bring up a very good point that the bend towards justice only Happens when people actively work at it. Yeah. Because it could just as easily bend back the other direction. Yeah.

And I think it becomes morally imperative to be a small but mighty figure, a person who is engaged in evolved because when you abdicate, when you say, "Hey, I hate this or it's cynical or you're cynical, the system doesn't work. What difference could I make?" What you're actually doing is seeding your vote, your little bit of influence, the territory of the Office to those people who have the they know what they would do with it if they got into power. And you are saying not as actively as the people supporting giving the money and advocating,

but you are saying, "Yeah, sure. You can have it." And that is to me like the the Stoics start as this sort of cynical school. They're descended from the cynics which is like sort of questioning the status quo and convent and and questioning convention. But then they Quickly realize hey if like the virtuous and wise people don't participate in the nasty dirty world of politics it's seeding it to those ambitious but morally unencumbered people or or stupid people or the incompetent people um or the just self-interested people. And that's not a that's not a world

you want to live in. No. I mean, even George Washington when he uh is voluntarily giving up power, which everybody was like, why why would you do that? You're Going to be president till you die. Um he even cautions in his farewell address to uh beware of the um cunning and unscrupulous men who will usurp for themselves the reigns of power. Yeah. And I mean like if that is not prophetic, I think we can all look around and and point to cunning and unscrupulous men and women who have usurped for themselves the reigns of power.

Uh and how do we end that? Yeah. How do we keep Them from running away with with the reigns of power? Yeah. Uh it cannot be just saying, "Well, I'm too small. I don't have any power. I don't have a weirdly shaped rocket ship. I don't have billions of dollars. So nothing I do matters. That cannot be the answer. Yeah. And if collectively lots of people say that, then they're abdicating a collective amount of power that uh a collectively large amount of power that they could wield in opposition to that Thing. And also, you know,

the idea that um all of us doing something ultimately moves the needle a lot more than like five people trying to do it all. Yeah. Right. like five people trying to do it all, as you mentioned earlier, can die, can be assassinated, can get cancer, uh can have a scandal from their past that gets uncovered, can be discredited, can have a bad day and missspeak about something and then people make fun of you for the rest of your life about it. Like, do you remember when Howard Dean ruined his own political campaign from just kill

for a political world where yelling disqualifies you? Like, that's it. Like, forget him. He said woo too excitedly. um you know like those five people proverbial five people can easily be um taken out. Yeah. Right. Um it is much harder to hold back a mighty tide of change makers. How do you think about this with your platform? is I I think About it where it's like sure I have more followers than your average person, but I also have a thing that I specialize in and I could just talk about that thing and we'd mostly agree

and get along and then there are things happening in the world and you feel obligated to speak out about them. You also know on some level you speak out about everything you've you won't have any room to talk about your actual thing and you'll also so I've been fascinated With how you manage your platform because it you're this kind of nonpartisan progovernment in the like uh just government is there to serve all people and do things uh sense and and yet there seem to be certain issues that you go okay even if I'm nonpartisan I

there is a one of the parties is insane on this issue so I have say something, right? Like you you have used your platform sporadically but I think emphatically on a number of Things. How how have you thought about that because I'm sure it's not always popular. No. Yeah. And just as an example, one of the things that I do frequently talk about is uh related to guns, right? Like I don't think you should anybody of any stripe of any party should be okay with children being shot in their schools. Yeah. I'm opposed to that.

Yeah. Like that's Why is that controversial? Um we should make it harder for people to shoot people in Schools. that that does not seem I mean like but to some people that that is heresy, right? Um so there are some issues that I feel extremely strongly about. You know, like as a longtime teacher, um we should not we should not be empowering school shooters. Well, yeah. Look, your freedom to buy uh weapons however you want with zero, you know, uh uh restraints deprivives me of my freedom to send my kid to public school and not

Think about that happening, right? What about the child's right to live? Yes. So, um the way that I think about it is is this because you it's a good point that you make that you can't talk about everything. Uh otherwise, people stop listening. Otherwise, uh you dilute your impact. Otherwise, you don't get to talk about um anything positive. If all you're ever doing is calling out all of the bad things that you see, well, then you have landed in the category of Critic and not doer. Yeah. And I didn't come to you for uh day-to-day

politics. I came to you for this bigger picture thing to begin with. And yet, there's some moral responsibility, I think, if you have influence to use it. Yes. So, I think it's um it's not only good or it's not it's not only permissible. I think it's good. Yeah. that people have issues that are on their heart for whatever reason. Um whether you believe that those are given to you by some higher Power that God told you what you're supposed to work on or whether by virtue of um proximity or education or life experience, you feel

especially um pulled toward a specific issue. Um, I think it's actually a beneficial thing if each one of us has issues that we deeply care about and we take action on those issues knowing that I cannot personally take um impactful action on 50 things. Yeah. But I could take impactful action on a small handful of Things. And if my small handful of things is different than your small handful of things, that's actually good. Yeah. you know, like uh that's actually a good thing that if somebody over here cares a lot about rainforest uh destruction and

somebody over here cares a lot about um guns and somebody over here cares a lot about uh teacher well-being and somebody over here cares about childhood hunger, that's actually a great thing. Yeah. Uh and so I think We should feel uh unencumbered by this notion that it is it is in fact not your job to have the weight of the world on your shoulders. It's not your job to solve every problem the world presents you with. Um, and that there are some things that you care about more that you have more experience with or that

you just feel especially drawn to. And I really believe that those are supposed to be your things. Yeah. And I have things that are supposed to be my Things. You know, I have education and life experience working in schools and going to college for certain things that gives me a perhaps a unique perspective on the world. You have different perspective on the world than I do. And that's not just uh okay, that's needed and necessary. Yeah. And I think accepting that doing this is going to be at some level expensive and not please everyone. Like

I I think it's fascinating. It's like like the notes of Unsubscribe. Unsubscribe. Hate this. Why did you do this? Blah blah blah. And then also, where are you on this? Where are you on this? Why haven't you said anything about this? And so it's and then going like if you throw up your hands and go, I can't please anyone. I'm going to try to please everyone, you're going to do it wrong. Or if you say I can't please anyone, it's not worth doing. You have to go, hey, I'm doing this because it is right and

I am going To ignore on either side if it's too much and not enough. And everyone kind of has to pick their handful of things and decide. Yeah, like you said, the eyes of history are upon you. You have to go, hey, this thing was happening while you were alive or a handful of things were happening while you were alive. What and how were you involved? Were you part of the problem or part of the solution? Did you just go, "Ah, that was bad for my algorithm, so I didn't do Anything." They I I also

really think it's important for us to remember that [Music] um we all have important work to do. Yeah. Right. And uh sometimes people really resist that idea of like my life is too small. I don't I just work at an insurance office, you know, like what is my important work? No, we all have important work to do during the during our time on this planet and we cannot allow ourselves to be distracted from Our important work. And the people in this book did not allow themselves to be distracted but from their important work. Uh people

who have made important change in the world, lasting meaningful change did not allow themselves to be distracted from their important work. And to your point uh earlier uh sometimes people that actually requires training on how to not be distracted from your important work because there are forces who if they can't if they Can't stop you from doing it they are going to try to uh suck all of the joy out of it. Yeah. So that you will no longer enjoy it enough to continue doing it. um they will try to distract you uh make you

look over here and uh this sort of mantra of I refuse to be distracted from my important work first of all requires you to identify what your important work is. Yeah. And uh and then to uh have the um fortitude to say um this is not I refuse to be distracted by You. Yeah. From my important work. either you're you're you're saying it wrong, you're not doing enough of these things. Like right now, um we're recording this in the aftermath of Hurricane Helen, right, which is absolutely catastrophic national natural disaster. Um where people are very

desperately hurting. And over the course of the last uh you know, few days, I've I've raised almost $600,000 for an organization that's on the ground Helping Yeah. with Hurricane Helena Relief. I don't say this as any sort of like uh pat on the back. What I'm I bring it up because um to many people that is an admirable thing. That's great that you use your platform to help. But trust me when I say there are plenty of people over here who are like you're not talking enough about how FEMA is blah blah blah blah blah.

And there's people or what about what's happening in Gaza or what about the election or what about This? You're not talking enough about this thing. you're spending all your time talking about this thing instead. Um, but if if I know what my important work is, I can choose to not be distracted from it. If I know what my important work is and I know that history favors the doers and not the critics. Um, I don't feel as vulnerable to um the incoming attacks from uh whatever angle. It's not a it's not impermeable. It's not a

complete uh suit Of armor. I just feel less vulnerable when I uh to to those sort of incoming when I know what my important work is. I'll give you an image from Senica that I think about a lot. He says he has this word euthia and he says euthia which loosely translates to tranquility but I think it tranquility sounds too passive to me. Anyways he says euthia is the sense of the path that you're on without being distracted by the paths that crisscross yours. And he Says, "Especially the footprints from those who are hopelessly lost."

And so I like if you if you're like at the beach and it's like you can see all like a baz, you go like, "Yeah, where I don't I lost the bead on where I'm supposed to be going." There's a million intersecting footprints. You got to have this kind of here's where I am. Here's where I'm going. And this kind of tunnel vision where you're able to ignore the people who say you're not going fast Enough or you're you're going too slow. the people are saying you're going in the wrong direction or the people are

saying what about this and what about that and you and yeah I think a core part of that is knowing hey this is my main thing this is where I these are my strengths of being applied to a specific problem with this specific goal in mind as opposed to what I think a lot of people do which is just emote about a problem talk about a problem try to do a Million things about a problem all at once and what they effectively end up doing is nothing nothing I say this frequently that um outrage is

not activism. No, because it feels like it is to some people. This idea that like I feel angry. I'm having an emotional response. Uh and this fact that I'm having this emotional response to whatever this tragedy is or corruption or whatever it is. Um they feel like that emotional response uh is equivalent To activism. And I've emoted about it. That's enough. That is that's my contribution. I think there's a political science term it's called the narcotizing dysfunction which is that often high levels of informativeness about an issue or engagement intellectually with ideas corresponds with a

decrease in activ like you're like hey I listened to a bunch of NPR reports I wrote a letter to the editor blah blah blah blah blah but Then I didn't vote because like I did my part and actually you did your not part and you neglected your part. Yeah. Um I think I I think people are left with a a false sense of what it means to actually be active on a topic. People don't for some people don't like the idea of like taking up the mantle of activist. That's like I don't want to be

a social justice work as if that's not like an amazing thing, right? Like that's something liberals Do, you know? Like you're a leftist if you are if you're an activist on something. Um there's a million things you can be an activist on, of course, but um the idea that outrage is activism I think has really been exacerbated by social media that that we can just Yeah, we can just like leave comments. Yeah, she is. I hate her, too. You know, I changed my profile picture. Yes. Yes. I left some emojis on your uh in a

comment uh comment on your Facebook. Um, I think This is a controversial one, so I hope that my statements about the civil rights movement and the reading and the writing I've done on this topic gives me uh people understand where I'm coming from on this, but I think Black Lives Matter is a classic example of this where you have somewhat diagnosing very real problems in our society and then just creating this kind of vague activist group about it with no like it's it's as the kids would say, it's All vibes. What are they actually trying

to do? What did they what what are they doing with the hundreds of millions of dollars they raised? What like there is the outrage and there there's a lot to be outraged about. But what I think all the figures in this book and and my heroes, they were like, "And here is what here's our five priorities. Here's our plan. Here's our campaign. Here's what we're actually [ __ ] doing about that thing." There was just this kind of Like, well, now we're a media awareness organization. And it's like that's not the problem. The problem is

these number of vexing socopolitical psychological issues that we have as a society. And you have to you have to wage war against those things in the courts and in politics. You there's you do something about it. You can't just raise money and have your emot your outrage pointed at the right problems. Right. That's not activism. No. Right. So yeah, but it but it makes people feel like if I if I follow, if I like, if I share, if I comment, that that's really moving the needle on this street. Yes. Right. Awesome. Right. Great. Um yeah,

I I frequently will ask myself or my followers like, uh, did anybody go to bed with a full belly tonight because you left some comments on Facebook? you know, like did any children learn how to read cuz you left an an emoji, a clown emoji on on Instagram? Um, your outrage is not activism. It is not moving the needle for anybody. And imagine if any of the figures from the civil rights movement or any of the figures from this book uh just sat at home feeling mad. Yeah. Because that's ultimately what a huge number of

people are doing. Sitting at home feeling mad. Yeah. At a at a device that contains the entirety of human knowledge and all the evil in the world. So an unlimited amount of things to be Angry about. That's right. I'm just mad about it. Yeah. Um and at the end of the day, your outrage has changed nothing except your own soul. Well, this is where I think your work is so important. And then just every government and civics teacher I remember my uh my government teacher my AP government teacher Mr. Delordo and uh I it was

a class where we would alternate days. So I we had uh AP government and honors English and they were two of my well no AP US history and uh uh honors English and those two teachers changed my life. But mostly what they did was they explained how the system works. And I'm always amazed at the profound ignorance that a lot of activists and a lot of people with great consciences uh have as to how they would actually affect the moral change that they think is so imperative. They just like you're like at this point in

time I would argue that marching about essentially any Political issue is less than worthless. Like we have political problems in America that are problems because uh a a minority movement or a minority political coalition understands that they have just enough people to stop things from happening. They're not knowing that they're that millions of Americans think that this thing should change. The polling already tells them that. You Know what I'm saying? Like like the the polls say that millions of Americans want common these common sense issues or these common sense solutions to these problems. So you

getting together and yelling, they've already said this to them, you know, like you have to understand what actually is going to apply pressure to that person and that's where all your energy and outrage has to be directed. It's a good point that um if you want to be a heart Surgeon, you spend years learning about how the heart works, what the structure is, how it functions, what it what happens when it goes wrong, how and then how do I fix issues with it, right? Otherwise, if you don't understand the ins and outs of everything about

the human heart, if you get in there and you just start hacking at stuff because you're like, "Well, that looks bad slice." Um, you're you could create irreparable damage to something. Uh, and I think if you want to change something for the better, you have to really understand how it works in an effort to know, okay, what are the what would be the unintended consequences of taking action? A, you have to really understand what that means. Um and and to your point, you have to understand the system well enough to know where the secret levers

of power are hidden, right? Uh and if you think that they're all with the man behind the curtain in the uh Wizard of Oz, uh but in reality there's a button underneath this table, um you you might actually be way better off with that fundamental understanding than if you just spend all of your energy screaming at the dude behind the curtain. Yeah. Yeah, it's like the right figured out, hey, the legislative branches have have effectively ceased to operate in this country. They have seated their power to the presidency. So there's almost no legislation of any

Consequence by Republicans or Democrats. So the only real lever of power is the judiciary. And they built a multi-generational like multiaceted operation to slowly steadily transform the judiciary. and they stole a march on, you know, the center and the left in this country. And it's going to take probably a generation to undo a lot of those things or it's going to require in because I would say from a strategic standpoint, you don't just do the what Your enemy is doing. You go, oh, so we have to seize control of the legislative branches of government. That's

you actually have to elect sizable majorities in the Senate and Congress or you have to eliminate the filibuster which has its own pros and cons but you're going to have to figure out how to pass legislation in this country with veto proof majorities. That's and it I just don't hear anyone talking about that where a lot of people are talking About who's going to become president but the president doesn't do anything. I mean not I mean the president does a lot of important things but the president it you you hear Kla Harris say this if

Congress g brings to me this I will sign it's like okay so that's like the least important part of it you know like like who's doing that where's the energy directed at that thing right I I you're you're absolutely right that people overestimate the power of the President yeah signing your name is probably you know it's legally an important thing but It's ultimately um it's ultimately not building something which is what legislation is constructing something from the ground up. Um it's just sort of you know putting the final touches on the roof essentially uh to

you know something that was already constructed by somebody else. Um and then you hope that what you've constructed will withstand uh the Hurricane of the judicial branch, right? That it's it's windproof, so to speak. Um, but you're right that we're putting a lot of effort and emphasis into the uh executive branch right now into this presidential election in part um because we've had we we see how ineffective the legislative branches. Yeah. And we feel like this is the least productive Congress in United States history. Um, and I would rather um have a less productive Congress

and somebody that I Can tolerate at the top of the legislative branch talking to my television, right? Because I'm sorry, at the top of the executive branch because it's their voice that permeates the entire sort of existence of the United States. It's their voice that represents us on the world stage. And so to have somebody at the top um that at least you feel like is moving the rudder in a direction that at least like maybe slowly we can head in this direction or They're not certifiably insane. Yes. Or they're not just like chopping holes

in the side of the boat. Um that that would be great. You know what I mean? So we do get very emotionally worked up and attached to who the president is. Um, and you're not wrong that if we want real substantive change, most changes that a president can enact are temporary. Yeah. They they are easy to make go away when the next person is elected. If we want substantive Long-term change, we have to be willing to um do the hard work of uh working on gerrymandering. Yeah. working on uh getting different people in here to

do the job because obviously this group of personalities cannot work together. Yeah. Right. Uh a lot of people love their own individual legislators. Oh, I just love that guy. He's so great. Ever done. Yes. But they dislike Congress as a whole. Yeah. Um but it's clear that this group as a whole cannot Work together. Well, what I think is so interesting is how much that group itself has accepted its own powerlessness. I was interviewing Adam Kinzinger a couple weeks ago and uh great I love him and uh probably disagree on most political issues but I

think he's a great dude. But he was saying how struck he was and I've had this experience with the politicians I've talked to. He was like it was as if Congress believed there was a super Congress that would solve this problem. like, hey, I'm just here to pretend to be a congressman, but there's these other levers of power. They'll they'll take care of this. Like, this problem is above my pay grade. And it's like, you're at the top of the pay grade. Like, you're we elected you to do this thing. Um I I was sitting

in the Senate dining room talking to a senator and I was asking I was like, "Why don't you do something?" you know, and he was like Telling me because well, if you do that, you're not going to get a cabinet position, you know, and you're Oh, okay. So, everyone everyone is thinking, well, I can't do it because I have this other thing that I need to do and that's and it's like if everyone has that attitude, like ultimately it's just these doers who have zero political power who are not encumbered by that who seem to

ultimately force the change upon us. Well, like yeah, you to your you know The senator you're referring to. So then it's like oh so it's all about you then. Yeah. Right. It's all about your future career. It's not about what's doing what's right for the people you represent right now. Or though it to present it in slightly less so uh selfish terms. It's this idea of like I have this like like um you know not do the next right thing. It's I have to keep my powder dry for the the big moment, you know, like,

hey, my big Issue is X, so I'm like there just everyone is like, I can't waste myself on this issue because what I really care about is this. And so everyone is just expect it's like where would we be if if if that's how society had operated like no, you don't get to choose the crisis that you're in. you have to deal with the crisis in front of you, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why um people are of course people are very um they feel really really uh left Behind by uh by people

who do have access to the reigns of power because they don't do anything with it except it appears as though they act in a self-s serving manner. Yeah. To build and protect uh and their own political power. Um but it's also why people have had to go outside of the reigns of government because the government moves very inefficiently and very slowly. Uh and often people who do make radical change are people who are acting outside The confines of the law when they are in government anyway. Um, so I love the idea though that we don't

we actually don't have to sit and wait around for um a completely ineffective Congress to get their rears in gear. We don't have to wait around for some of these people who are 900 years old to retire. We don't have to wait around for the right president to get elected. uh that despite our circumstances, nothing can change in our External circumstances and yet we have all of the power in the world to change ourselves. Yeah. Uh and how we interact with the rest of the world. And the people in this book demonstrate that over and

over again that uh they chose to have hope that there was a better future ahead. They did not wait for hope to descend upon them like some sunbeam peeking out from behind a cloud. Yeah, they did not wait to feel a feeling of hope. Hope was something that they chose And acted on because they knew that nothing good comes from a place of um nihilism or cynicism that change is possible from the fertile soil of hope. How do you give that to kids? as I I I struggle with this where it's like I'm I despair

and feel scared and anxious and yet like you don't you you want to be realistic and that also the whole point of generations is you're supposed to move it forward. How do you think about this with kids? Yeah. I think it kids Kids can understand that you can choose to do something even if you don't feel like it. Yeah. Right. that you can choose to to not hit your sister even when you don't feel like it. Yeah. You can choose to not throw pencils in the classroom um even when you feel like doing it. Yeah.

And that hope is something that we can choose even when we don't feel it. Uh, and it it requires it's an exercise in um in in many ways it's an exercise in Self-control to not allow ourselves to get run away to not allow our emotions to run away uh with all of our thoughts uh and to allow those thoughts to guide all of our actions. Um it's an exercise in self-control to say no I am I refuse to allow um this temporary circumstance to completely uh derail my important work. Yeah. And to have the to

have the courage to say I am going to uh do what it takes even though I don't feel like it. And that can only come from choosing To hope and also maybe that we can as a family start very small. So, like what what can we personally do about this thing? You know what I mean? Like we can pick up this trash by the side of the road. We can donate, you know, the money we were going to spend on this thing to that thing instead. like how how do you sort of like Aristotle said

we we should see generosity and you know kindness and all these things not as like a a trait you possess or don't possess but as a as A a verb like an activity you do or don't do. Yeah. I think so often we uh make the problems so large and when we're feeling overwhelmed by the problems of the world because you're right the problems of the world are endless. Yeah. um that the way that we can begin to feel like we are making an impact is to rightsize the problem. Yeah. Right. To think stop thinking

about well I need to change the world and start thinking about um I need to Impact the people inside the confines of my home or at my workplace or in my own classroom or in the town that I live in or at the schoolboard level. Um, and for some of us, we might have the opportunity to make big impacts at a state level or a national level level, but that's not where most people's impacts will be. Their impacts will be in their im their community. And those ripples may have broader effects in the future, just

like the people some of the People in this book. But nevertheless, when it the problems feel too big and overwhelming, um, you need to rightsize the community and stop stop thinking about I have to fix childhood hunger writ large. Yeah. Um, you could pay off some some school lunch debt at your neighborhood high school. That's right. Or you could feed one child. You could do for one what you wish you could do for all of them. Yeah. Uh, and that, you know, that gets you out of that state of Inertia. That gets you out of

that mindset of nothing I do matters because you see the difference that it makes for one person and you realize what you do actually does matter. Yeah. You could also run for a school board or volunteer at school. Yes. And those kinds of things seem possible. Yeah. once you begin to move forward and do even parents have an obligation to be informed by and then inform their children of like the kinds of people That you're talking about in your book. You know what I mean? Like like I I do wish as a child like yeah

you learn about Napoleon, you learn about George Washington, you learn about these huge larger than life figures and maybe there's some of us who go just like somebody goes I think I should be president. We go that's like me. But I don't know there there there's something about finding these more relatable smaller figures where you go, "Oh, yeah, These were just regular people." Yeah, I I totally agree that these uh it seems like it makes making a difference feel accessible. Yeah. Right. Like it's something that you actually are capable of doing. Um that these are

people who came from nothing or whose parents were enslaved or um you know had incredibly tragic life circumstances that nobody would ever want to trade places with. Yeah. Um who just kept choosing the next right thing. Uh and that's that's a Power that's accessible to all of us. Yeah. The power to choose the next right thing. Does not require us to amass large amounts of social following or huge bank accounts that each one of us can choose the next right thing. Even if we're five years old, um we can practice it. Uh if we're 10

years old, we might have better mastery over choosing the next right thing. Frankly, there's a lot of adults who still need to work on this skill. Uh but much like liberty, which Will which is an ongoing effort. Uh this is an ongoing effort that each one of us is tasked with to choose the next right thing throughout our lifetimes. Uh and not something that is a final destination that we're going to arrive at. Not a thing of like, well, I did that and I'm good. Um yeah, and also I think I think it we are

doing important work sort of showing the more realistic nature of history. you know that the the the the unpleasantness that we've Plastered over for generations is is essential. At the same time, if you don't replace that with other people or non-garbage people basically, you know, you end up instilling a kind of cynicism and nihilism and a hopelessness like like the failings are obvious, but who so who had fewer failings or you know like how how do you find some way to I think Alex Haley said that the job of a writer is to find the

good and celebrate it. And I mean this is a guy who writes Some pretty dark books, right? So that he believe but the idea that yeah, your job is to find things worth sharing and talking about, not just poking holes in popular narratives. I Yeah, I totally agree. Uh, I think it's you're right that for too long we have whitewashed over much of the bad things of history in an effort to spare ourselves from discomfort. Yeah. And in an effort to spare our children from discomfort. And you see this movement of Foot in the United

States today, too. That we we shouldn't talk about things that make people uncomfortable or that are divisive concepts. That's the word that we use for it today. It's a divisive concept. Um, which is just silly. It's silly. Um, these are the same people that are mad that certain kids today are snowflakes. It's like, how do you create snowflakes? You you protect them from all divisive concepts. Uh, people don't realize that you cannot Ever learn to think critically if you're never presented with ideas with which you disagree. Yeah. Otherwise, you are just you've just been spoonfed

propaganda if you only hear things you you agree with all all day long. Yeah. If you like it, it's probably not history. Yeah. The idea that that you um If of course most people would say yeah I I think that critical thinking is important or they like to view themselves as critical Thinkers but that we should also protect children from anything that is difficult. Yeah. There these these ideas are diametrically opposed to each other. You can't have both. Yeah. So choose one. Right. Um we don't want to upset our children. And what we mean by

that is we don't want to upset certain children. We're fine with upsetting other children. We don't want to upset the children that look like our children. That's the that's the real Subtext here, right? Yeah. Um but nevertheless, we've whitewashed over so much of history. People have woken up to that fact and they feel lied to. They feel Yeah. They feel lied to and that makes them angry. Um but if we never uh give them anything else to look to as a replacement, Yeah. they're just going to be left with nothing but feelings of rage. Yeah.

Uh and that is not the place from which good things can grow. Yeah. Right. What are you what are You telling them that does give them hope? Like uh you know that poem Good Bones? I love that poem. Like that to me like that's your job as a parent is be like, "Yeah, this place is almost a tear down but not quite. The bones are pretty good. I think you could turn this into something." That's how you have to explain the world to your children. If you're like, "This is amazing. Look at it's like, yeah,

they're going to buy it and then live it and realize, oh, it's Falling apart. Oh, my parents lied to me." Yes. Exactly. or I mean if someone's if someone tells you if someone obscure if you were buying a house and someone obscured all the problems with it, they didn't fill out the disclosures properly, that's fraud, you know, so you would be very and rightfully so very angry at someone who did that to you. However, if yeah, you um you don't what what what a neighborhood needs is people who see the Potential in a dilapitated piece

of property and they turn it into something amazing and someone lives there and it's worth more money and blah blah blah blah blah. But they can only do that if they choose to have hope that what they do will make a difference. Right? If they look at the dilapidated house and they're like, "F it." Yeah. I hate all of it. Nothing will ever change. No amount of work will make it better. Um it's the whole thing's terrible. I hate This neighborhood. This entire state's the worst. I'm moving to Canada. Um that is not where you

can make positive change from, right? No. But if they are handy and creative and determined and blah blah, if they if they bring a set of skills to that, there is no house so dilapitated that they can't turn it into something. I love that. I love this, too. Well, thanks again. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Of course. You want to check out some books? Yeah. [Music]