Historical Advisor To Hollywood Gives Us The Low Down On Gladiator!

Because Caesar is fundamental to the story of glador combat in fact I I don't know why he's not really mentioned as much as he should be because Caesar is a genius of marketing the poorest of the poor they were people who came from nothing but reached the Pinnacle of stardom the ugly ones get the big helmet the ugly ones get the big helmets the ugly big brutish guys get the big helmets Alex it is wonderful to have you On the podcast today Tristan it's remarkable to be here thank you so much you're very welcome we've

already had quite a bit of chats about your experiences in the TV world films and TV series in ancient Rome it must be such an experience to see these movies these ideas come to life and with so many of them the Gladiator is right at the center because it's become so iconic of Roman culture absolutely uh I I think I'm a bit I will say I'm a bit of an Anomaly in in the in the field because I I Traverse different uh fields of of work which people normally don't so I love working in film

just because by by complete accident I ended up working on a a couple of films and TV shows and what I realized was that I was really spoiled with imagery that I I I visibly got to see an experience ancient Rome built as a set people in costume um and it gave me this very strange uh almost physical memory you know we we spend a Lot of time reading we formulate in our minds images but to actually see them really brought it to life uh and to be able to actually watch people um for example

I worked on a show with Nigel Ben and Chris Eubank and and they fought as Gladiators now the premise of the show of course is completely cheesy but in truth there was a certain moment because we filmed it at the amphitheater and osta to sorry the theater and osta and Watching these two prime athletes actually go with grudges and history behind them and fight in armor was the closest thing I've ever seen to real gladiatorial Combat and it was I mean it was tremendous because it was brutal it was physical it was vicious but it

also for show they were great showmen that was a great part of it and they'd spent a career doing it so these experience really have have gifted me so much I mean that's what I was going to say Because also and you've actually just highlighted there it's all about the spectacle the performance these are performers today reenacting one of those great orbe it very deadly performances of ancient Roman history oh absolutely I mean that's the thing it was a spectacle a show of the eyes we forget that that that visually it had to blow you

away especially when you you're considering that in Antiquity uh Roman society was based on on war on on on brutality on Violence people saw things on the front that if you came to the amphitheater and saw a lame fight you know it's a lame fight so you really had to take it a higher Notch to impress people even more in the arena and especially with with the the Eubank and Nigel Ben thing what was interesting was they really went for it it was like what should what what would happen if you took two prime boxers

heavyweight boxers gave them armor and made them Fight an arena you know what we're going to be exploring more of that later on in the episode more and especially like when they enter the arena as well that kind of speal thing but we'll get to that in time because all of that let's address the props in the room that we've got at the moment I'm wearing this shirt and I've got a roman face mask on it shout out in the comments if anyone knows what the face mask is absolutely not quite Gladiator related however your

Little pin there with a mask that is more glad related well I feel we've set up a already set up a a fight between us because here you've got the helmet and the uh Cavalry mask there but the Cavalry mask is what they use in Gladiator for the Tigers helmet of course cuz he's got a mask on over his face and I've got the yes I've got the pin of of the the Spaniard of Russell Crow Maximus Maximus or was it so we already have a Tigers Maximus fight Going on here well we'll keep it

going just for the chat at the and of course you've also brought in this replica sword in front of us now I'll take it away what exactly is this so uh bring it up to the camera yes absolutely so this is a little trick of the the the film industry which is well first of all it's a bit of a relic Now isn't it we got sure we're 20 years old now so the future when they find this in a tomb somewhere and say what the heck was this So uh this is a stunt Cavalry

sword from the film Gladiator it's all in one piece of rubber um so if you see somebody walking around London with a GL I and they look like me don't be alarmed uh but I I have the largest collection of items in the world from uh films such as Gladiator series like Spartacus anything to do with Rome uh and I often like to put an exhibition because you know the interesting thing is that your average person has seen Gladiator but they've Not read Marshall so you know I think there's always a little bit of a

problem in the academic world is that people don't realize that majoritively shows films documentaries are aimed at people who aren't into history or they should be they're usually not but they should be because those are the people you want to get interested and and fascinated into it and if someone watches a show or sees a prop and says I want to know more that's that's the job done that's the Job done okay well let's put that back on the table and that leads me nicely into my next question because you mentioned there the word Marshal

so coming to the topic of the Roman gladiator what types of sources do experts like yourself have to go on to learn more about the life of a gladiator well from from a literary point of view there really isn't that much that's the interesting thing we have little bits and pieces Marshall of course in the Spectaculous talks about um the games of the Coliseum and he's a Roman poet is he he's a Roman poet yes and and and he gives us uh a little glimpse of someone who sat in the arena and watched the opening

games of the col I me how fantastic is that um but you know we tend to find more from archaeological evidence from places like Pompei for example which I was just that recently um but also from uh modern forensics has helped us greatly because we find Cemeteries of Gladiators and from there we work out who they were physically how they were kept but also uh it tells us a great secret about gladiators which I think is it's no longer a great secret but it's it's kind of coming out which is that they they didn't die

and most of all they aren't what we believe Gladiators to be that's so interesting well no such thing as a City question we've said the word gladiator a lot but what exactly was a Gladiator because many of us will have an idea of a gladiator but many of those ideas will be wrong well I think it's a a very uh it seems like an easy question but it's a very enigmatic question because Gladiators are in my opinion the most enigmatic figures of History uh they're very complex as we all are you know humankind is complex

and Gladiators a great mirror of that they're very complex figure now if you ask somebody in modern terms what's a gladiator Formulated from films predominantly it's a poor slave thrown into the arena given weapons and told to fight to the death brutally for these terrible Romans who ate and drank while blood was gushing but that's the movies and the truth is far different I would say that Gladiators are first of all um the first modern sports stars of History without a doubt secondly I would say that gladi ERS are the ultimate Underdog they kind of

Represent you know the poorest of the poor they were people who came from nothing but reach the Pinnacle of stardom I mean think how incredible that somebody with absolutely nothing born in abject poverty gets to stand before the emperor of Rome 880,000 people and have them cheering their name and make money from it so they kind of represent you know the person with their back against the wall who fights they wear out and who can't be inspired by that But the third and the most important is that they are the literal physical embodiment of verus

and verus is to the Romans what bushida was the samurai it is the philosophy that governs them without verus there's no there's no Roman Empire there's no Julius Caesar it is the philosophy of Excellence of skill and physical and mental agility and the Gladiators literally represented it well if it if a gladiator can gain all of this at the Height of the Roman Empire what about the beginnings do we know much about the origins of the Gladiator absolutely well so some people like to start round about the the time of uh the atrans uh you

know about the the sort of the atrans or the companions so you're talking about fourth Century BC I'd like to go further I think that first of all this idea of human sacrifice because the thing about about gladiators is that There's no one long uh simple trajectory as to their history they are the culmination of many moments and many great individuals that sort of made the sport I mean if you ask people how did football start or or rugby there's kind of an idea right even football which is so popular some people say well was

made here and some people that some people say the Aztecs did it gladiatorial combat is very much the same um this idea of human sacrifice which is the Origins origins of Gladiators goes back all the way I mean I think as long as monarchies have existed this idea of sacrificing people um at funerals or in death has been present I mean we know in the you know the the first dynasty in Egypt they're already sacrificing they've got um servants being sacrificed to take so the fair can take them with them but in in the story

of Gladiators because you've got a little bit of sacrifice or human sacrifice but you got A little bit of sport I'd go as far back as The Iliad I mean the IL is the first literary um example of a sports event and it happens in book 23 when patrickus dies and his funeral is given by ailles and achilles puts on this wonderful spectacle he puts on a show to honor patrickus to honor the dead and there's boxing matches there's wrestling there's men fighting with weapons and in fact Homer has Achilles say uh Patrick let even

in Hades I've kept my promise 12 Brave Trojans shall join you on the P so you have the the fighting you have this great show of Martial skill to honor the dead but you also have the sacrificing of people to to accompany the dead so that's really the star and of course as we know the Greeks and the Romans are symbiotic so the more Greek influence came into Rome the more heniz of Rome occurred the more this diffused now we have two sources Nicholas of Damascus Says the truskin gave the Romans Gladiator combat but Livi

and syus say the companions did now the at truscan side for me doesn't work there's no archaeological evidence even if the word Lista is supposed to be originally a truscan word the archaological evidence points to the fact that the earliest examples in Italy of images of gladiatorial combat come from past M capua from the 4th Century BC and you have these wonderful painted tombs of Men fighting beautiful but then you've also got um the companions being the epicenter of gladiatorial combat so in my opinion it's it's definitely the south of Italy because the south of

ites conquered by the Greeks in 3 or9 BC the companions defeat the samnites the samnites are a a hill tribe of people that the Romans have several battles with but the way they they actually dressed or they fought and you can go to the British Museum and Actually see some beautiful uh samnite armor very ornate armor um once they're defeated the companions have the prisoners of War fight to the death to honor their fallen Brothers but if you think logistically now what you've got is you've got a huge amount of beautiful ornate armor so the

first Gladiators or figures that we can say are Gladiators are dressed as semites ah so these great enemies interesting the great enemies because You you've kind of got a double thing here you've got first of all awaited dispel of prisoners of War okay they're fighting men you can't do anything with them you kill them you're honoring the dead and and because the Romans are very pragmatic and very business orientated you've got a whole bunch of beautiful armor what are you going to do with it so it becomes sort of custom to adapt this and in

Rome the first example we have of this is 264 BC and that is two Two guys Marcus and Junius Brutus who honor their father um Decimus Junior Brutus Pera and by the way this is the one of the wealthiest families in Rome because Lucius Junius Brutus is the guy who kicks out the last king of Rome in 509 BC first console of Rome so we're talking the wealthy one of the wealthiest most important families and they put on a a spectacle a munera which means obligation for their father to honor his Death um and the

way they do so is they have three three pairs of Gladiators fighting but they're not gladi as the buari Busta means the P so that the men of of the funeral P but that I think in it italic terms is the first seed of what's going to become gladitorial combat and the spectacle that we'll see in the colum because you mentioned seed because at that time during the Roman Republic so mentions Brutus in like 509 BC and Republic L all the way down to Octavian andati so Mark anony so some 500 years later in that

time during the Roman Republic is it very much when they start embracing these early Gladiators from camp following the samnite wars that they are used very much in the context of elite families you know overseeing the spectacle but they are used well for ferary context yeah yeah and by the way there's no indication that there it's a fight to the death it could be a see the thing is the Romans Belief was that the dead were Shadows they were sort of men stripped of of anything physical they were just like Shadows is a perfect uh

analogy but the blood of a man which is the the life force could be fed to the to to the Shadow and give them sort of a a temporary strength to pass through to the Underworld the thing is that these shows were intended originally in the Greek tradition to be a way to honor the dead But I think something happened which is that people witnessed it because the most important part of it was the feast because you put on a feast afterwards and you you know you gave people food and wine and and all thanks

to this great benefactor so that you know in Roman terms religiously as long as you were remembered as long as you were spoken of you existed still you you you know you were still there and so was a way to have people say oh that you That that Decimus Junior's Brutus PA what a great guy you know we remember the feast we went to and so on but I think what's happened there is that it's tapped into something Primal I think people have watched the show and it's triggered something and what's happened is that you've

got some very stup politicians some very ambitious people of which the Roman Republic is consisted of that have looked at this and said this is Something good do we know much about how these early gladies how the sport almost evolves over those next centuries as the Republic progresses and we get to like say figures like juliia caesa and just before we reach that almost kind of golden age of Gladiators with the Emperors and so on well so there's a sort of a key moment um so 264 BC you've got the first one you've got you've

got three three pairs right uh 5050 years later you've got 20 pairs now when you Get to 174 BC uh great General quintius um he passes away and he leaves in his will money for a great show he has 74 pairs of Gladiators fighting but and here's the bun he doesn't hold he makes sure it's not not held at the time of his funeral he actually has his family weight uh and they hold it in December in the saturnalia because they know that people are going to be on holiday so they're going to see the

show so now all of a sudden it's like well wait a second Is it for his funeral to honor the dead or is it to honor his memory uh and it makes a real change because first of all they they they started dressing differently the the Romans were not so keen on nudity like the Greeks were in fact I think Greek Athletics really didn't catch on very much because the Romans weren't so keen on the nudity so these guys fought their underwear which is called the subligaculum it's about a 4ot piece of linen triangular linen

uh It's basically Underpants which is what Gladiators by the way will continuously fight from 174 till the end of gladiatorial combat um and this this is really a key moment because the show gets bigger and so you start getting people trying to compete with each other and by the time you get to somebody like Caesar because Caesar is fundamental to the story of glador combat in fact I I don't know why he's Not really mentioned as much as he should be because Caesar is a genius of marketing he's the the greatest marketer of antiquity and

he knew and caught onto something that was key people love the violence they love the game they love the show they love this vertus and he used it to his full extent and it really was a big part of his success by the way not often spoken about but it really was well let's speak about it how does he use gladiatus how does he very much Evolve the story of the Gladiators why he such a significant figure well it so just just a little a little bit before him uh we have um the first non

funeral related show so it's not like Caesar invented this idea um a chap called rutilius Rufus published Rus Rufus puts on the first non-g gladiatorial show uh that's linked to a funer mon him and another chap which I think is the greatest name in Antiquity manilius Manus Maximus it's a Great name you know you can only you can only hope to be named Manlius Maximus so they put on a show but it's nothing to do with the funeral it's just pure entertainment because they've already caught on to that they've seen that and by the way

he just to show you how well Gladiators were trained he actually uses the training system of the Gladiators for the Army for his army and it's so successful that Marius Caesar's great Uncle actually chooses his army to fight against the chimur because they're so well trained so already by 75 BC Gladiators are no longer poor slaves and not servants they really are Peak athletes already and Caesar catches onto this trend and in 65 BC he puts on a munus so he honors his father by the way his father died in 85 he died 20 years

before doesn't matter he puts it on and by the way Caesar owns his own family of Gladiators down in Capua same place that spartus breaks out of the Giuliani so he has his own troop of Gladiators very astute because guess what you've had 75 pairs Cesar's going to have 2,000 maybe because the Ludas would hold about 2,000 men so he's he's got all of that ready he's already preparing himself so he becomes edile puts on the Monera for his father he's got everything ready except his political opponents go not a chance and they panic and

they quickly pass a law That 320 pairs is the maximum you can have and so he only puts 320 pairs on but don't worry because years afterwards when he celebrates his Triumph he's going to put on thousands like he promised I had no idea Julius Caesar was so important in the story of Gladiators because I associate them with the time of Emperors and that as it Zenith but once again with so many different aspects of ancient Roman history you can always include Caesar in the story I had No idea and not only by the way

he's actually fundamental to the games because so there's no permanent uh fixture um in in Rome for glador comment till 29 BC so in time of Augustus a chap called statius Taurus one of his commanders builds this uh half wooden half Stone Amphitheater so in Caesar's time they did pretty much what we do in modern concerts you put up a wooden you know set of stands or you put up a temporary Stand then you take it back down again but he builds one and his is unique because it's first of all on a race platform

he's got tunnels and trap doors and lifts underneath it now bear in mind by the way we're talking here 46 uh 6 yeah 46 BC um sorry the the moon was in 65 and he puts on the games in 46 BC for his um for his quadruple Triumph and he builds this incredible idea before the csum is even concepted you know um and he has a Valarium so he's got the awnings on the top which are already present in in Pompei um but he's got awnings lifts trap doors race platforms so he's got at certain

points Gladiators popping in and out lines coming out of nowhere it's it's genius because then when they build the Coliseum initially they didn't even have that technology and then they built it afterwards so again he's such a great showman he's such a great marketer that He uses the games to his Advantage so as you say the most successful marketing man PR man of Roman history and it's same with Gladiators I absolutely love that I wish we could talk more about gladiators in the Republic but yeah we've talked about the origins and evolution let's get then

maybe a few decades later in the time of the Emperors Augustus and so on first century ad onwards as we get to that time and Gladiators as a sport this Blood Sport becomes more established in these Arenas and so on first questions first whereabouts in social hierarchy and the social standing did did a gladiator sit it's it's the interesting thing about gladiators is that despite their Fame their their sometimes Fortune they were regarded as the the infamous the infi the the the worst of the worst in society pimps Undertakers you know sometimes actors um they

they regarded Really very poorly in society but you know I I don't think we have a very different view of sports people today I mean we have an admiration for Sportsman but if Mike Tyson would run for president You' you'd probably think that was quite sort of humorous you wouldn't take him seriously would you so I think we have the same sort of view of uh athletes they're they're physical they're not intellectual and um and they were regarded as such they were regarded But but incredibly they also formed part uh oftentimes of the Imperial Court

they were favored by them the Emperors wanted to be them cular for as ation communist as secutor think for a second that the most powerful wealthiest God on Earth living at that time a man who commanded over 60 million people wanted to be the the infamous the slave in the arena the supposed slave in the arena what does that tell you I think that Commodus for Example who ended up being the you know top of the the the food chain wanted to be that guy tells you a lot about that guy that one man in

the Army in the middle of the Arena commanded the attention the love the admiration of many and that was intoxicating and I think that's what's interesting about the arena is that it turns everything upside down from a hierarchy point of view even the emperor wants to be that guy in the middle and so if you Look in from a society point of view yes the Gladiator is at the bottom but when you go to the colum you flip that round because the guy at the bottom is the guy who's getting everyone's attention and everybody loves

and everybody wants to be they are the celebrity I mean with that whole image in mind were there many Freeborn Romans I mean do we know who therefore then they sacrificed their status their standing to become a gladiator yeah you know this it's a Surprising thing because whenever I talk about gladiators people say who' want to be a gladiator and my response is who wouldn't you know don't tell me that in a time when life was short and brutal a time of abject poverty that you wouldn't take the chance to walk in there first of

all you get a signing Fe of 2,000 St sters and just to put that in context an average Soldier is making about 900 a year your your average Romans living on about 200 sersi so already you're making Twoe salary in signing up why wouldn't you do that but it's the possibility of Fame of admiration and and financially you know we live in a golden age where we forget that uh this plentifulness that we have this ability to make money is not the rule it's an exception we're very lucky to live in this period of History

because most of human history is AB poverty and if you are of a certain economic clust you're never going to get Out of it back then to walk through that gate in the arena gave you the possibility of changing who you were you could be poor you could have nothing but you could walk in there and not only become famous and loved and adored as much as the emperor of Rome but also as wealthy as any of the politicians maybe not on the fame part but it also sounds quite similar to the Roman army that

kind of gave you an option to get out of the the life that you into prely I mean That's what Cesar's Uncle Marius was so so good at was that he transformed Society because the cap Sensi the the the poor who were basically counted by the head had nothing and that was also part of the games was that you had to plade people because they didn't have anything so it's a good way to control Society was to put on the games to distract them you know everybody knows the the very famous um phrase that Nero

says that you know people just need PanAm chensome just games and bread but it's actually echoed um by fronto who says that the Roman Public's only obsessed with two things and that's spectacles and the grain Supply and in fact he says uh Tran's rule was very successful because of serious things but also of spectacle he says the people mourn serious things with great loss but they mourn the loss of spectacles with great resentment well there you go love those Little quotes I want to kind of keep on that a bit longer because with who could

and would choose to become a gladiator we must also mention mus that although there were Freeborn Romans who did decide to sacrifice their status and become a gladiator were there also those who didn't have a choice absolutely but you know there's a great I think confusion with glador the life of a gladiator with gladiator combat in general which is that we tend to mix a Lot of things together there were a lot of people that were condemned to death to fight to death they're not Gladiators not by any means they were called noxy noxy were

prisoners of War often they were condemned criminals um so if you equate for example CES gallic Wars all right he's brought back a plethora of fighting men you can't do anything about them they are the enemies of Rome they must serve a purpose you have them fight to the death they're uh basically suus They they're put in and the Survivor stays on the winner technically stays on right that isn't gladiatorial combat I think there's a great confusion with Gladiators because the term gets used a lot but when I talk about gladiators I talk about professional

athletes I'm talking about the real professional athlete Gladiator which was the ones who were incredibly well trained taken care of slaves were bought of course they were I mean you know the Ludus had um a talent scout the schools the Gladiator schools had talent scouts and who would go around and say but you know you'd be maybe in a SL salt mine somewhere you'd see a guy with the physical attributes cuz that was the thing you weren't just picking anybody off to be a gladiator you had to be the physical exception and by that guy

guy and then try and sell him to audas so of course and why would a slave do that because you can win not just money You'll be paid but you're also given Three Square meals a day clothing shelter and the ability to win your freedom and become rich why would you not take it well I mean there you go I mean well let's kind of move on then let's say you have signed up to become a gladiator if you're a Freeborn or you've been you've been made into a gladiator you stood out to this talent

manager assault minor wherever as a slave what was the next Steps where would you be taking once you'd been selected or you'd signed up to become a gladiator so the the first thing is you'd be taken to the ludus the school and you'd be introduced to your doctor which was your trainer uh the doctor would look at you physically inspect you and sort of decide from there from your phom as to what kind of a gladiator you would be and what kind of training you'd receive and by the way of course where do the Romans

get this Great sense of training from they get it from the Greeks because in 776 we've got BC we've got the Olympics and you've got a very competitive um environment so a lot of Greek Physicians started creating training programs for the athletes um in fact if you read them they're fascinating because they sound a lot like the modern stuff we think we're doing and find out that what we think is modern is far from it so the the Greek athletes were also chosen from their Physiomer would look at them and say okay same things apply

to Gladiators so you're you're you're given um an idea of what kind of gladiator you can be you know are you tall slender are you good-look youd make a great retiarius because he doesn't have a helmet so they pick the best looking ones to be the r the ugly ones get the big helmet the ugly ones get the big helmets the ugly big brutish guys get the big helmets and so um and and of course we do know that Physical attributes are a big thing because we find this wonderful graffiti and Pompei kadus the thian

suspirium polarium the heart throb of the ladies pressions the uh nocturnum puparium the uh the nighttime Neta of the ladies so sexuality is a huge part of it and they are they're they're the most sexually desired figures of the Roman Empire more than the Emperors um so your training would involve you striking a thing called The Palace we don't have a lot Written about gladiatorial combat training but we have a lot uh uh from vettius uh about training of the military but what we also know is that from 105 BC probably even more because shiy

Africanus in 210 BC is already using what becomes gladiatorial training for his soldiers so we know that the training of the army and gladiatorial training are symbiotic so vettius tells us how they train they have wicker Shields they have wooden Swords and they strike against the palace which is a a a pole basically a trunk of a of a tree and they're taught moves much like you would teach martial arts you were taught certain uh CS so you know how to how to attack how to defend uh but along with that there's actually physical trading

there's like cardio what we'd call cardio the system they used will it be in a system called the tetrad and we have a a Greek writer Called fil estratus who talks a lot about the tetrad system it's a 4-day training system the first day you have some intense Preparatory workouts so maybe Sprints you know you're preparing yourself the second is what he calls an inescapable test of one's strength and so you give everything you've got the third day you rest and the fourth day you go on to skills it's a brilliant training system because if

you've got 2,000 Men how many one-on-one trainers do you think you have you don't have 2,000 doctores so you probably got a handful of them you need to be able to mass train people and then specialize with their skills and we have this specialization I've got to ask why why do the Romans decide to create all these different classes of Gladiators that they don't fight each other in similar styles that one person is decided to be a light armed net man and another is More heavier armed then someone else has got a spear maybe someone

else might have a bow and arrow I I don't know why do they have all these different classes well originally it's because they again it starts with the samnites it starts with the enemies of Rome so the first kind of Gladiators or classification of Gladiators you've got is the samnite uh you've got the Gus you know the goals were the goals were the boogeyman to the Romans and uh and Caesar of course has The gallic wars in the 50s BC so the conquest of gold brought back a lot of G GC armor a lot of

prisoners of War so initially it's the enemies of Rome and you know as a as a symbol what a great symbol where you've got somebody um you've got a Society showing that the enemies that that fight against you will meet this Doom you know the the violence of the Arena was a warning to those who watched that if you didn't live lawfully in your Everyday life there were consequences and keeping society as a whole together is a very tough thing imagine an Antiquity but it also was the Romans showing the superiority That civilization Roman civilization

was top because outside of the Arena outside of Rome you had these three terrifying things you had the beasts you had nature which we forget was a terrifying thing because we don't live really live with the threat of nature you had the threat Of the unknown of the Foreigner of the Bari The Barbarians the uncultured but you also had chaos Rome was order was strength was light Rome is the light Rome is the light I've seen much of the rest of the world it is brutal and cruel and dark Rome is the light uh it

was the light in many ways and it was because you know if you look back where would we want to live if anywhere in if not ancient Rome it's the closest thing where we can see uh style of life and Think yeah I could probably fit in there well let's go on from that a bit so they've been assigned their particular class they're doing all the training like this daily life of a gladiator in the Ludas that's where you're eating that's where you're sleeping that's where you're training every day I've also got to ask about

the equipment a bit more because yeah were the arms and the armor for these particular classes were they designed to be very ceremonial Quite showy quite blingy and exotic rather than being designed to be really effective pieces of equipment let's say in a natural bathroom absolutely sorry I know I tend to go on tangents because I've got so much I know it's great it's a subject I love talking about and I'm passionate about it so I and I go on tangent so keep me on hold the line I think I think that's going to be

our thing is get as many Gladiator quotes secretly in and see if anyone picks up In it um so yes hold the line if I'm going off on tangents so initially gladiatorial combat is about showing the enemies of Rome because they you know again from a standpoint of um equipment you're defeating huge armies you've got a lot of equipment easy done but what happens is then it becomes a show it becomes a spectacle and so the armor becomes ornate and changes I I mean for the Roman men it was also a way to see how

people fought on the fronts you know you got to see these very exotic armors uh you got to see exotic weapons that were very different from the Romans and you got to see the techniques that were us used on the front so in a way it was to immerse those who had not been on the front who had been in the wars as to what it was like in fact you know sometimes they would put on Pitch battles to represent Wars um but as it Became a show the armor I think really reflects it it

becomes first of all Augustus adds masks because Caesar is important but so is Augustus Augustus does a lot for gladiatorial combat he first of all monopolizes the ludus it becomes state run so sorry all the private sector it's finished it's all state run he puts masks in them I think it's very clever because Gladiators aren't people and we don't talk about them as people we talk about them as Gods because they do superhuman things first of all they they have the aspect of Titans these incredible shiny beautiful ornate helmets they have physiques we don't have

they have physical attributes we don't have but they also do things that we can't they fight they fight with Valor but they sometimes s they continuously stare at death and they laugh at it wow what bravery bra and yet they are the lowest of the low Yeah it's that weird kind of we get more into that weird kind of contrast I said they're the most complex thing because we we are you know man is complex and I think Gladiators are so complex themselves they represent us perfectly well let's say you've been in Gladiator school for

a bit of time for that training about two years it's about two years and I'm guessing you don't really get to spend much time outside of the Ludas that's not necessarily true no That's not necessarily true I think you know there's a there's a great uh so first of all Gladiators had families and wives we know this because a lot of the evidence we get is from funerals uh sorry from funerary uh inscriptions tombstones they tell us the life of the Gladiators way more than literary evidence does you know from the sources um so they've

got families they got wives bit odd for people who are thrown to arena is told to fight to the death But a lot of Gladiators who signed up will have stayed at home home and then come to train and then leave so it's not always said the the the sort of confining Gladiators really from a standpoint of security from the emperor point of view was that you've got some very dangerous men who are mercenaries they're fighting for money let's not beat around the bush that's quite dangerous for an Emperor's safety because who knows somebody might

get the Idea to hire them and people do um not often talked about but Pope Damascus I first in 3336 ad hires Gladiator because his rival decided that he didn't like the way the papal election had went Pope Damascus had been elected Pope so he ran to the church and had himself crowned a pope and so Pope Damascus went down to the local ludus ludus Magnus next to the Coliseum hired a whole bunch of Gladiators killed 137 People kicks his opponent out and jeso became Pope fair Enough so it was a very dangerous thing to

have armed men in the city which is of course why Augustus decides that lorial combat the the the industry should be state run shouldn't be privatized well well thank you for clarifying that because I my mind I did think that they just lived and kind of slept in Gladiator quarters all the time I was thinking my mind IM easy goes to Pompei and the the reused part of the theater that became The new Gladiator barracks and you see all those kind of look like dormit trees around the outside but as you say there's more to

that than meets the eye which is so interesting well remember that Pompei is just the it's it's the year before the the col opens so as the colum opens well suddenly you've got a bigger stage I mean that's when it hits the big time that's when it really becomes a show you know we're talking about a sport that lasted 700 you know Years uh think of any sport how much you progress think of like wrestling American wrestling I always think it's a good example what was American wrestling in the 50s and look at it now

would you really compare these two sports and think they're the same we don't apply that to Gladiator combat same with MMA I mean if you look at MMA the fastest growing sport in the world for those who think that we are so different from the Romans that the biggest sport in the World right now is two men who enter into an arena and fight for the pleasure of a baying crowd are we so different from the Romans I absolutely want to get onto those similarities with ww even dance a bit kind of today as well

with the spectacle of it all I think all modern sports have a a sense of glad roal combat American football yeah pardon me but yes there there are great parallels there well I'd like to ask so if you're one of these training Gladiators and you've done your two years of training how soon would it be I know it must differ as you've highlighted there it's not all the same for everyone but do we know roughly how long it would be before they would go into the arena and actually fight someone so again this changes in

periods and it changes according to demand you know there's certain moments of history like if you take the role the the rule of antoninus Pas it's a very peaceful Rule so there's a big problem not a lot of prisoners of War coming in so there's a great demand for games and a greater demand for gladiators it really was a huge business which Marcus aelius the great Marcus aelius ruined because he makes a serious of decrees with his suncus in 176 ad and he ruins it because he sets um limits on how much you can spend

on a show so you can under 30,000 SES or all the way up to 200,000 SES but he then limits how much you can pay for Gladiators so you start from about 1,500 CES all the way up to 150,000 but he killed he killed the business so liners were not making the money they were anymore because of it so that's really when things change because if you take the money out of the business the business is going to start going down a bit like the movie industry we talk about movies before in my experience you

know I've worked in film Over 25 years I've seen it change dramatically from the amount of money they were spending on films to the amount they do today if you look at our old Blockbusters you know the Great 50s and 60s the spartacus's and the cleopatras right the the movies benur we don't make movies like that anymore because the money has gone out of the business in that way so there's a great parallel with that in in galur combat going back to where we were let's Say you've signed up you've done your training and you're

about to go to one of the Arenas across the Empire because these Arenas it's not just the Coliseum that's glitzy one no yeah it's a full thing I mean yeah these schools these Arenas the Gladiators they were all across the L and breadth of the Empire well look if you're a footballer today right and you past your your Prime you can go play in Dubai people love you Miami right I don't want to mention any Names I don't offend people but uh in you know you go to Pompei so before you put on a show

you would have a series of sort of graffiti arst in public places putting up the poster for the show we have a poster in Pompei that mentions you know there'll be Beast hunts there'll be Gladiators and there will be fyama oh wow God F I mean you know he won the he won the Super Bowl of 84 8 he a bit past his prime that was about six years ago but still I'd go see F fight Again you know um and uh and and so you you had a sort of a great career because the

doctores the trainers were retired Gladiators and once you were past your Prime once your contract was up because you had contracts then and by the way you don't only had contracts you also had sponsorships there's a great anecdote about the original Gladiator script in which uh Russell cr's character was supposed to to walk into the Coliseum advertising olive oil it's In the script the original script this show is sponsored by yeah this sponsored by but really Scott thought people wouldn't believe it because so ridiculous but it's true they when you were in the arena your

Gladiator was sponsored so you'd have the sponsorship of the Gladiator so you're making money off the sponsorship and and so there's a great business of it and then of course you could go once you retired around the different Arenas so the schools would travel and say you know we're going to play an away game there you go in North Africa oh wonderful you know that is still incredible I mean with that contract and with the money that economic investment in it if you were under contract would it kind of be agreed that the Gladiator would

get some of the money from the sponsorship but the lanista the owner would get the line share of it I mean do we know much about that I'm guessing it Was kind of shared between the two yeah well again I mean during the Empire because it's all state run um the there's a procurator the procurator ad he's the highest paid official in the um in the employment of the of the Imperial Court so there's a lot of money in it and he's running both the ludus Magnus and the mattinas which is the the morning school

where they they did the Beast stuns where they train the Beast Hunters so there's a great deal of money So yes the Lista gets a profit of it but again before the empire in the the times of the Republic these guys were making a fortune which is why it was lucrative and why people like Julius Caesar even Nero afterwards but Nero had his own Gladiator school but Julius Caesar he has his own Gladiator school because it's a great investment it's a great story of a guy called kuo a friend of sis in 52 BC he

wants to put on games and he's Desperate uh and sister says don't do it but he does he he he invests all his money he builds this incredible uh wooden theater that can swivel so it's a so he's got them sort of back if you imagine like a uh two sets of seating back to back and they're watching different shows and then they they're on Wheels they're moved around and then the Gladiator shows put on of course it's a huge thing and he gets elected to his whole uh Career afterwards politically is wonderful because of

that and by the way Caesar when he puts on his Monera in 65 BC gets his money from crus richest man in Rome so they're borrowing huge amounts it's a huge risk but if it pays off you're set the rewards are very much worth it as you say if it if it pays off let's go back to an arena in Imperial Rome yes let's say you're a gladiator and you're about to walk out yeah for maybe your first Match or maybe your first few matches I did say we go back to WWE and MMA parallels

but I want to ask about the entrances of these Gladiators into the arena was there a lot of fanfare can we imagine announcers shouting maybe even like some elevators and stuff that was it really a spectacle just them entering the arena actually before they fought so you imagine a day in the Coliseum was a full day by the way the reason there's so many pairs of Gladiators is because There's if you look at any combat sport some fights don't last that long so you have to have like a full days worth of entertainment um the

first thing is you've sat you've sat in the Coliseum you're with your friends the noise of the crowd and I love the fact that by the way we're so like the Romans that we live in a period where stadiums of 880,000 people are are thing if you go back 500 years ago they're not you know stadiums of 80,000 people are a very Relatively new thing except when you look at history and realize the Romans were doing it way before us so the noise of the crowd just was intoxicating you're sitting there and imagine the sand

of the arena and suddenly you hear a noise a bit I I would equate to maybe the shutters in U in an airport you know when when the flights are changing trees start popping out of the ground and suddenly 20 OD trees just pop out of the ground And the arena is transformed into a jungle so suddenly you Roman who will never leave Rome never see any part are in the Black Forest of Germany amazing then a panther comes out a a tiger and a hunter in the middle and you're watching from an almost aerial

view a hunter hunting animals in the colum in Rome music's playing you've got a water organ you've got a trumpet you've got a horners the sort of long Trump curved horn so music's playing to the actual Games and then when the hunter kills the animals the trees pop down in the ground sand and it's a halftime show after the halftime show that's the B we've been waiting for the Gladiators come just like MMA just like any combat sport you start the lesson known guys and you build up to the title fight because that's what we're

there you get the pomper so music's playing and outcome Heralds holding the placard that tells you this guy his name how many Fights he's won how many he's lost how many he's drawn so you've got the stats you know uh you know like it's wonderful watching MMA because I think there's so many elements of glad and here we have you know from Syria F The Scourge rarus uh 38 fights 25 wins nine STS missous nine draws that's true by the way we have a funerary inscription of this guy and out he comes music's playing The

Crowd Goes Wild I mean I think from both aspects from a Spectator's point of view how intoxicating that these games that we witness today existed 2,000 years ago but how intoxicating to be that gladiator that comes out in the parade has thousands of people cheering from him and then every Clash of your sword every uh every time your Shield blocks a blow everyone thinks you're finished and at the last moment moment you strike the Gladiator and the referee comes down he's knocked out and raises your hand And you're the winner and The Crowd Goes mad

I mean again who would not want to be a gladiator yeah the chill is going down the spine even though the danger was there it's the adrenaline isn't there at the same time and interesting thing about the adrenaline um you know when you watch MMA fights and and they they knock people out right the referee has to throw himself there you imagine if you put weapons into it so the fact that There's referees because they were they were referees the sumaras and S rudas tells you first of all there was rules this nonsense of people

giving weapons and thrown to the arena is nonsense there was set rules but there was the training was important because combat especially with Weaponry instigates uh fight or flight and and you know even combat veterans they it's hard to sort of fight the adrenaline now you imagine you've got the adrenaline pumping you've Got the noise you're wearing a helmet that you this noise is reverberating the discomfort and yet they had the ability to stop at the right moment and not kill their opponents because what the s they didn't kill their opponents well exactly as you

said there when you had that Herald come out saying how many fights they'd won how many they' drawn how many they' lost yes so was it more often than not that a gladiator would well would not die in one of these one-on-one Fights yeah I honestly I I put that look we do have a lot of funer descriptions most of the time they talk about again you know uh F the rarus 38 fights 25 wins nine stand misses nine nine draws retired at 30 people did die from one of the things they majorly died from

was injuries because you are using weapons it's a very dangerous thing let's not you know beat around the bush Combat Sports are incredibly dangerous if you look at Greek Sports wrestling boxing Boxing I mean you didn't have a time limit you basically incapacitated and blows to the face and the growing were accepted which often led to disfigurement to death uh same with pankration so Combat Sports were very violent and gladiatorial combat is part of that it's part of that Pantheon of sports so the dangers were you are using weapons in fact one of the things

they don't wear tunic is because the linen or the wool getting stuck in a wound would Would kill you would would cause an infection but what we do find from Modern forensics on gladiatorial skeletons is that these guys majoritively have medical care so they have wounds that are then healed so you've not only got a doctor that's healing you but you're also paying for the time that the injured can recover because we see from the bones that they actually physically recover even from medical amputations so there's they They've healed afterwards and but there must still

be some cases my mind is immediately think because I've just done something on the Jurg forest and minus' son who gets captured and taken to Rome and there's story that he ultimately becomes a gladiator in Rena or somewhere but dies before he's 20 yeah so then there must still be some cases where Gladiators did perish absolutely absolutely I mean you take uh I I tend to think it goes more with the who's in Charge like you get someone like Caligula kiga was a psychopath and in fact he's said to have been ruled by charers and

Gladiators he I mean he he starts with a over 2.3 million cersi um left over from Tiberius who didn't put on very many games so he saved a lot of money and he squandered it all on games and he loved you know he was sadistic he loved watching people fight to the death and so there are certainly moments where Gladiators were expected To to fight to the death but I think they're an absolute Rarity they're not they're not the standard well let's first a few myths quickly you mentioned earlier that these like tigers and pumas

and that's happening earlier on were there any cases where Gladiators will be pitched against animals no but you did have dexterity in uh Gladiators in that they trained in different um classifications so we have an inscription uh of a guy called chry Silus who was uh was a hunter became a raris so you could change profession um once again jul Caesar is the first to put the munus of gladiatorial combat and Beast hunts together he's the he puts them together and Augustus makes them the standard so they they're closely associated but no you wouldn't have

an a gladiator why would you would you you know you wouldn't have a boxer uh a trained boxer go and fight play American football he might hurt himself or vice Versa you would have a great quarterback be a boxer very different sport but I'd also like to ask about let's say you're being a gladiator you're fighting in all these fights you're not dying you get injured but you recover and you gain this popularity this big following almost like a social media influencer of your day this ancient celebrities do we know how someone might decide right

I've had my fair share of time in the arena how could They the the phrase you always get is either win their freedom or retire I mean do they try to win their freedom almost well if you're a slave you certainly would I mean you know this thing about Freedom interests me because we always think the Gladiators were slaves but um athlet were regarded as slaves and Antiquity F estratus the Greek says that a trainer should hold a stril for two reasons the first is to clean his athlete and the second to kill Him if

he doesn't perform perfectly and he's not being he's not being factious he's he's being quite serious about it um athletes Gladiators soldiers as a category they're people who give up their autonomy uh or have no autonomy because they are at the will of their trainer who will bend them and train them into the purpose they wish so is is a soldiers is a soldier free no when you sign up to the Army you say I'm you're Going to be trained as a soldier you can't after a year go well that was fun I'm going to

leave how do you get out of it it's the same with Gladiators I think the easy thing about gladiators that we don't often do is apply them to modern sports or modern situations because the answers are are actually around us so what happens what could they end their service let say would they finish their contract what would happen next for a gladiator you might go sign with another School why not you know you might go sign with another team you might retire but why would you retire though there there's a a great mention of a

gladiator called Hermes the toast of the Empire um there's a mention of a gladiator being offered his freedom says why would I want to be free I'm loved in Rome I'm a very Social Circle I'm wealthier than most of you so it really depends on the on the individual it's the same reason As to why would someone be a gladiator why would someone be an MMA fighter some for Glory some for riches some for immortality it depends on the individual I would say cuz could to be and it's like in Gladiators the returning of a

retired Gladiator to the arena like you've taken some time off but you're coming back because you want that adrenaline of being in front of a crowd again oh yeah yeah yeah you can imagine things like that actually happening oh Yeah I mean tiberious gifted a retired gladi 100,000 cers wow yeah okay and again remember just you know people always say how much is CES today I don't deal with modern amounts but 900 Ceres as a soldiers uh annual wage so put that in perspective so you're you're you you can either choose between going to the

Army having over 20 years of service maybe dying in a ditch somewhere in a forest in Germany or being you know after being nailed to a tree and having Some not nice Barbarian chopping you up or you can take a risk go the the amphitheater and make vast fortunes that soldiers will never see their entire careers I'm Blown Away by the fact that like there is this belief that so many Gladiators will want to keep on being a gladiator because though is there any truth in that wooden sword getting a rudis mark of your freedom

is do we believe that that actually happen at the end the rutus is very symbolic it's First of all it's the training weapon of the Gladiator it's the name of the of the referee uh it's often times the rutus was offered to Hercules there's a great Temple of Hercules you know where the mouth of Truth is in Rome I don't know um it's just by the where the for Barum used to be it's that beautiful round Temple of Hercules yeah uh dedicated well they they called the Vestal Virgin Temple by m it's it's wrong it's

the Temple of Hercules the Victor so when a a gladiator successfully would win about or win his palms he would then go there and he would lay the rudus inside as a vot of gift to Hercules well you mentioned earlier how certain Emperors also fought his gladi so I won't ask about that because it's Commodus and cular isn't it comous thinking well hren fights lines in front of of the public he yeah wow okay so hadrien as well so you get those which seems so odd in its own right but As you say it's kind

of that shifting of power Dynamic of everyone wanting to be the Gladiator in the arena yeah but as the centuries go on yeah do we know what happens to Gladiators well first of all the money went out of it and second of all you have the introduction of Christianity and it's interesting because Christian writers like Augustine for example um they don't they're not so concerned about what's going on in the arena which Tells you a lot it's not about the death of because there there isn't that much death it's about the effect it has on

the people actually early Christian writers are very critical and try to uh get glador comat banned are not so much concerned about the welfare of the Gladiators or what's happening they're concerned about the effect it has on their brothers on society and in fact he tells a story of a a young chap who's training who his Pagan friends he's he's In Rome and his Pagan friends drag him to the colum and he says no I will not you know I will cover my eyes and then as he gets in he hears the Roar of the

crowd and he kind of Peaks away and he looks and Augustine says he becomes drunk on the furies and that it changes him and he visibly sees the change so Christianity was a big one Constantine the Edict of Beirut decides that there will be no Gladiator shows in Rome no one listens to him and it goes Up to about 430 The Last Gladiator show we have recorded is about 440 ad we have a commemorative coin about it but after that it just died and the biggest thing was that where the biggest stadium was where the

sort of Mecca of gladura was the the colum was no longer the was no longer the capital of the Empire so the power that the Roman mob had was no longer important there was no need to win the favor of them because their vote meant nothing and much like you know Many sports and many Industries it just it kind of died out but until today until today exactly and that's kind of the Revival of it today because that's the image we think of with ancient Rome because of movies and TV and that revived Legacy of

them people thinking it's bloodier that it actually is my my theory is that if you erased Society right you erased history and you started again from scratch you start with people on a on a on a hill with Huts like Romulus does eventually when it reaches a peak it'll build a stadium there there's something to be said about the fact that the Romans gave an opportunity to to sport was a way out of poverty and it still is today I mean all our greatest Sportsmen tend to be people who come from really very poor backgrounds

and it's because our civilization is at a peak as Roman civilization was that you had the ability to change your your social status and your economic status By simply your physicality and your skill well Alex I could ask questions about this for hours this has been absolutely awesome when are we going to talk about Gladiator oh let's talk a bit about gladi let talk but we've got quite a few references in there at the moment and I watched your video recently about uh about glad we we should actually do one where we watch it together

because I'm a person that you cannot watch a film with Uh people always think I'd love to watch Gladiator with you or Spartacus and then about 5 minutes in they're like this is terrible goodness because I literally I I tend to have I have so many references and so many historical things and you know mention things like tigers wasn't a gladiator who's actually a messenger of the ludus Magnus and well you know much more than me so I we will have to do it and there of course there is an ex Gladiator coming up so

maybe we can do That in the future um but my friend this has been awesome just go me to say thank you so much for taking time pleasure really thank you