I'm joined now by co-founder and chair of Democracy Defenders Fund, Norm Eisen. Norm, thanks for joining me. >> Thanks for having me, Brian.
>> So, Norm, we witnessed a pretty chilling scene today where Don Lemon was arrested by Trump's Department of Justice. So, Norm, I want to talk about the legal aspects of this first. Do you believe that the charges that Don Lemon is facing right now are actually going to uh be successful in their prosecution attempt?
Um Brian um this uh is not going to work as a prosecution uh because of a little obstacle known as the first amendment. Don Lemon uh was uh simply doing journalism. It is no crime.
If I uh cover the uh Palisades fire uh in Los Angeles, are they going to charge me with arson if I'm at a camera crew outside of a bank? Do do I get hit when it's being robbed? Do I get bank robbery charges?
>> I mean I mean for for you, Norm specifically, I wouldn't push that put that past the Trump administration. Well, they've uh they've tried and failed, Brian, and uh I just don't um think that um this is anything other than an act of bullying. We've already had a judge and no conservative, an Anton Stalia clerk, uh, Judge Schlitz, uh, the chief judge of the, uh, federal district courts in, uh, Minneapolis.
Uh, he said there's no evidence to charge Don. They tried it once. They tried doing a criminal information.
Now they've gone back to a grand jury. But Brian, you know what they say, grand jury >> uh will u indict a ham sandwich. This is an extremely non-coosher ham sandwich.
This is some rotten non-cooser ham that they've got here and I think it's going to be thrown out. So talk to us a little about about the mechanics of that because I know that folks are saying okay you have a district court judge a conservative district court judge who already said that there's no basis to bring this case and so how could they go to a grand jury and indict him anyway. Can you talk about a little bit about the mechanics of the criminal investigation grand jury?
>> Yes. And uh there's two ways that prosecutors can uh charge a case. Um one is they can um themselves um uh issue a criminal complaint.
Um and that is what they initially tried to do with Don Lem that failed. The a uh magistrate judge in Minnesota, a federal judge said there's no crime here. And then the chief judge affirmed the same thing in a very complicated procedural posture where DOJ was trying to force the judges to accept that criminal complaint despite a lack of probable cause, a lack of a sufficient minimum basis uh for the for the case.
Um then you have a second way that you can uh prosecute and that is known as an indictment. That is where you go to a grand jury. Uh and u that's what they've done with Don here.
Uh but uh you know the the grand there were grand juries that put forward the bogus charges against Tish James and Jim Comey and ultimately a judge scrutinized those on different grounds than Don. Don will be first amendment grounds. Judge scrutinized those.
Uh we filed a brief on behalf of former judges saying throw them out. And that's just what happened there. And that's what's going to happen here too, Brian.
First Amendment protects journalistic reporting. >> So I want to talk a little bit about why the administration is doing this. Do you think in your estimation that they think that they have even after having judges swat them down in their previous attempts?
Do you think that there is a legitimate belief that they can prosecute Don Lemon, or is it the broader chilling effect that they're looking to have, the the harassment, the the the fact that they're making this an expensive process for him, um just a painful process for him? What do you think? What avenue do you think that they're trying to to go down here?
Um, you know what I believe is going on is Pam Bondi's job is in jeopardy. We know that Donald Trump is testy with her. Part of the reason for that uh is um has been reported that uh he doesn't feel there's been enough indictments of his adversaries.
Um they've tried but they've got gotten thrown out. Um so I believe Pam Bondi is looking for something anything to uh plate the mad king. That's the inference that I draw uh the based on the available facts.
We don't have all the facts. We don't know if it was somebody else with a grudge. Um, we know that that would be a >> Donald Trump doesn't like Don Lemon.
We know that, Brian. >> Yeah. >> And of course, the the bullying effect uh is not something that they um are exactly shying away from.
They want all of us to shut up. Well, guess what? immediately uh uh reached out to Brian as soon as this happened earlier today and others in independent media to say, "Hey, we need to sound the alarm.
" And everybody is doing it. And Brian, IT'S A BACKLASH in the country from this baseless charge. You're seeing people in Congress, journalism associations, Mayor Bass in LOS ANGELES GOT INVOLVED to make sure um to make sure uh Don was safe.
my contrarian colleague Gabriel Ryan called Mayorbass uh and even CNN which fired Don has spoken out to condemn this heinous assault on uh him and on our Constitution and First Amendment. >> The reality is that having these these administration officials basically acting out to curry favor with Trump is not a bug, it's a feature. I mean, we just saw uh Tulsi Gabbard just like a day or so ago participate in this effort to extract ballots from the from the Fulton County voting machines.
She was there as director of national intelligence. Clearly, she's trying to make it so that, you know, she can find the one topic that Trump cares about more than anything, which is trying to shoehorn into reality this idea that he won the 2020 election. And as DNI, she can say, "Oh, well, you know what?
this was part of some broader scheme that I've uncovered as director of national intelligence where the Chinese were involved with, you know, the the Swiss and the Italians and Joe Biden's CIA was working in in in conjunction with Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. I mean, it's it's it's all just conservative mad libs. It's But she knows that it's going to be something Trump likes to see because it appeals to his ego.
It appeals to his effort to undermine elections by using this pretext of a stolen election in 2020 as a basis to do it. And so she's going to engage in it because she's been on the outs. And now we have Pam Bondi who's bungled the Epstein file release and utterly humiliated Trump by virtue of doing so.
And now she's looking for some way to curry favor with Trump. And what does he like more uh and and there's nothing that he likes more than, you know, going after his political opponents with the Department of Justice, whether it's Tim Walls, Jacob Fry, Leticia James, Adam Schiff, James Comey, and now, of course, Don Lemon. >> Yeah.
The um the revenge campaign has not been a success. The American people put Donald Trump in there to have their lives, their groceries be more affordable, to uh to improve uh aspects of their existence like healthc care to he said he was going to drain the swamp. Uh instead what we've seen in the explosion of corruption uh millions of people losing health care are seeing the prices double and double again because uh uh of his giveaways to billionaires uh and uh the cost of living is higher than ever uh for most Americans.
We're seeing higher uh uh percentages of people think we're going in the wrong direction economically. Consumer confidence, lack of confidence is worse than in the depths of co Brian. He's the most unpopular president in modern uh uh history since we've measured approval ratings of presidents.
This is not what he was sent there by the American people, his bosses to do uh the revenge tour. And then when it gets to court, the cases get thrown out too. Uh it's not just the he doesn't only lose P James, Jim Comey.
Uh he's lost over 200 times in uh in in court so far. We've never seen anything like that. So, I I just think that the the the Don needs to stay strong.
He is. I know him well. He's a fighter.
Uh he's going to be uh uh the u uh new test case uh for the First Amendment and and he's he's fighting for all of us in independent media and he's going to win. >> I want to talk about a little bit of a silver lining here. Is there a world where if and when Don succeeds in court, it makes it all the less likely that the administration will have success going after subsequent independent media figures?
Like, does it create something of a precedent either legally binding or atmospheric where the administration sees, okay, we tried it, didn't work, now it's going to be even less likely the next time we try to do it, whether it's Norm or Brian or any other independent media figure. I I actually think when this case is thrown out, for example, under the FACE act, which is about access to abortion clinics and places of worship, I actually think that that will establish a limiting principle for that statute and for other statutes. A journalist who is there doing independent reporting is not a part of some conspiracy.
It's a reporter. Um, so we we haven't had to test that before, Brian, because we've never seen a president act the way this one has. When he loses, the other thing we know that uh Trump is that every day is Taco Tuesday in Trump world that Trump always chickens out and when he loses in court, that is an incentive for him to stop doing things.
Um, you know, he's very quietly put his tail between his legs and slunk away in any number of our We have 249 cases and matters at Democracy Defenders and Democracy Defenders Action to Fund Democracy Defenders Fund Democracy Defenders Action. Um, one is the 501c3, one is the 501c4 organization. And any number of times we've won cases that it's going to be a big war and they just uh slink away.
They move on to the next fight. Trump is not a talented tyrant. He's a dictator.
Dunce. >> Finally, last question here. Norm, can you talk a little bit about the importance of independent media?
As somebody who was a contributor at CNN, now you uh work at the Contrarian. Now, you've launched The Contrarian, which is a hugely successful uh Substack uh news outlet. And so, can you talk about in light of what we're seeing right now, especially a legacy media ecosystem that seems very predisposed to cowtowing to Trump, uh the importance of independent media.
>> Uh it's critical. You taught me that. our um shared friend and editor uh Dominica Aliotto uh said, "You've got years ago.
" She says, "You got to check out this guy Brian Tyler Cohen. " And then I called you last year. I cold called you cuz I admired your work in independent journalism and making that jump.
Truth be told, uh I left CNN because you can't cover 249 cases and bring 249 cases. >> Yeah. >> So, um there's there's very very good people who remain there and I appreciate their strong statement um in uh support of Don today.
Um but you know, I will tell you my first calls when I heard about this, you were on that text chain when I heard about this, Brian. My first calls were to Brian Tyler Cohen, uh to Jim Aosta, to Katie Fang, to Ben Myelis at the uh >> at the um uh Midas Touch, and to other independent media figures because I know we're going to be able to call it the way we see it. And that network collectively to our friend Carlos Espina uh has 12 million Spanish-sp speakaking followers on YouTube.
That network collectively uh is uh the place where more and more Americans both opinion makers and ordinary folks from the grassroots to the treetops are getting their information. And I I'm very I want to thank you for welcoming me to Independent Media and encouraging me and of course uh of all the stuff I do. I I enjoy a lot of it.
Um being with you and your viewers and listeners, nothing that's more gratifying for me. So, thanks for always having me back. >> Well, I I appreciate it.
And look, I can speak on behalf of everybody that's watching right now and thanking you because you are bringing these lawsuits. How many lawsuits have you brought in total against this administration? 249 legal cases and act and matters >> 249 lawsuits and legal matters against this administration.
So you are I mean you are doing the work where it matters and uh and a huge thank you on behalf of me and everybody watching right now for uh for fighting this administration for fighting back for not capitulating and and and meeting the moment uh meeting the urgency of this moment. So, uh, for anybody looking to support the invaluable legal work that Norman and his team are doing, I'm going to put the link to Democracy Defenders Fund right here on the screen and also in the post description of this video. Uh, again, they are the ones holding this administration to account.
So, any assistance, any contributions definitely are welcome. Norm, as always, you too are welcome back anytime. I appreciate the time.
>> Thank you, Brian. Have a good weekend.
