How to Start a Class Meeting: First Methodist Conroe Class Meeting Webinar with Dr. Kevin Watson

Just thought I'd begin with some introductions I want to thank everybody for joining us um for those that are either watching live and joining us in um in the webinar or we'll uh probably see this later on I know that there are many that um with conflicts will be able to watch this later as well um and I'm grateful for you Dr Kevin Watson for you to join us and take this time out of your busy schedule to to be with us a Little introduction to those that those of you that may not know um

Uh Kevin as well um as some of us have gotten to know uh Kevin is now um serving as the Director of academic growth and formation at Asbury Theological Seminary in Tulsa which is a new transition for them um and very exciting position but um he's a wesleyian scholar and one who has written a lot about wesleyian discipleship about wesleyian faith and theology um including for us maybe most Specific Al the book called the class meeting uh reclaiming a forgotten and essential small group experience which uh personally has been a big impact to me in

my Ministry um as over the last several years um it's been an incredible resource to help uh Wesley and disciple ship groups uh to begin not just the class meeting book but also his work with Dr kisker on the band meeting book as well and so um you you've probably Read heard of his name in other places one of my favorite books that you've ever read read I mean wrote Kevin is perfect love um I think that's a beautiful book for the church for um anybody in the church to read uh and an important piece

that brings a a theological and compelling um call for what class meeting and band groups are are all about um and so I just recommend that to everyone that's with us um our Our Hope and and goal and prayer tonight Is that this would be an opportunity a resource to help churches across our conference and I think even beyond our conference there's people that will be joining or watching this online um to help begin or to encourage and Stoke on the continuation of Wesley and discipleship groups in our churches as a critical piece of who

we are as methodists um we've done some work in our conference Kevin to to sort of Define some language about Discipleship um so that uh I think discipleship has been one of those words that kind of means a whole lot of things and doesn't really mean anything at the same time and so really just trying to to create a a wesleyian um a vision of what it looks like for our conference and we've come to a really simple line I won't give you the long definition of the life as Jesus disciple is always devotional transformational

and missional um and a Location for that to take place is definitely the class meeting and so the class meeting uh committee um because we have committees in the Methodist Church but the class meeting committee has been charged uh to reintroduce and to um encourage and equip churches to bring class meetings into their Church um I'll give you the definition where we've landed with class meeting but I also want to hear from you about what class Meeting was and why it was important and give us some historical context but we've defined class meeting as this

simply a class meeting is a transformational small group of people who meet weekly to give testimony to their life in God and to encourage one another in the pursuit of becoming more like Jesus and so that's that's where we've kind of landed and before I forget and toss it to you Kevin I do want to tell Everyone that's here there will be time for Q&A um Zach Anderson Reverend Zach Anderson is is with us his screen's dark but he'll be monitoring the chat and questions and answers he'll be answering some online when he can uh

and then at the end will save some time for people to uh that we might be able to respond that Kevin might be able to respond to some of those questions so I want you to know that that's there as well for those that are live in the webinar um so and I Guess I better introduce myself my name is John Wayne McMahon I am a pastor at First Methodist Conroe in North Houston um I am uh deeply involved in um in Wesley and discipleship groups in this church but also outside of this church and

helping people to see and to respond to what God can and does do in the midst of these groups uh which has led me to the opportunity to lead this uh lead this committee for the conference and so when we were dreaming about where to go With this uh we thought we'd shoot our shot and invite Uh Kevin to be a part of this conversation so our hope Kevin is that we can just encourage folks um to to help aim them uh equip them maybe even embolden them um to step into the this um this

old method this method that's part of our roots and who we are and um is a location in which God does and uh God creates opportunities for transformation and growing in Grace so Kevin why why don't I be quiet and um Toss it to you uh historically tell us about the class meeting a little bit and the location of this sort of discipleship what's unique or important about the class meeting in the history of the Methodist Church and why is it so important into the Wesleyan movement yeah thank you first of all just thank you

so much for having me it's an honor to be connected to you and and Zach in particular and the work that you all are doing and I'm really excited by the the Energy in East Texas for um a return to kind of the what I would say are kind of the basics of of who we are as a people called methodists and so I'm just excited to get to partner with you all in the work that the spirit is doing um in in your conference um I'd say the the class meeting in terms of like

kind of its its distinctive contribution in early methodism is that a Methodist for a a decades and decades really at the most basic level was a person who met Weekly with their class meeting um which is probably surprising to almost all methodists today unless they they already know about the class meeting from you know your work and uh the way it's kind of had a Resurgence but for the most part in in Contemporary American Christianity anyway we tend to think that the most basic thing a person does is go to worship on Sunday and it

wasn't that in early methodism worship was seen as Unimportant um it's just that there was a sense that um we we want to have a place where everybody who has taken up membership vows who's made a commitment to methodism has a place of belonging a place where they're known um and and I think where where everybody knows your name I always I can't resist the kind of Cheers reference like it's just this kind of sense of like it's a small enough group of people that if you're not there it's easy for the group to Notice

right it's actually hard for them not to notice um and so the groups usually would have around seven to 12 people and in them and um the idea was that there was it was the right amount of people where you know you can't help but have some kind of relational connectedness but also that you um would would be able to share like everybody actually is is engaged actively in the group and so the basic thing that would happen in class meetings and early Methodism was that each person would share about the state of their soul

the question I think the original question is how how does your life Prosper how does your soul Prosper not life how does your soul prosper and uh the I always like to point out that I think the today the language of prosperity has some baggage we um we think about the Prosperity Gospel some of those kind of like I would say like Miss understandings or Less than ideal ways of of talking about the gospel but I also think that that at least in some of the places I've been there's kind of an overreaction to that

that doesn't leave room for like the Christian life is about prospering your soul there is an expectation right like methodists in particular are rightly optimistic about the ways that Grace brings transformation and um healing and wholeness into people's lives and the class meeting was was the place where People expected to that happen they expected people to actually come to Faith through class meetings and then to to grow in their faith or what what Methodist would describe as sanctification or Holiness so there this is a context to to go onto perfection in in the early Methodist

language I think that today like what's helpful about that just in terms of thinking about the the DNA of I mean it's interesting in the global Methodist Church it's kind of We're setting the DNA of a new institution but we're doing it in existing institutions like the the building blocks of the new institution are for the most part churches that have already existed but are leaving one denomination and and um joining another one and so it's you know I'm saying that just to say there there is still a challenge we're not actually creating something from

nothing we have churches that have histories and have established Patterns and those kind of things but I really appreciate the Bold Vision um by many leaders in the global Methodist Church to also see this as an opportunity to kind of get back to the basics to better understand who are we really and why does it matter um and so the the class meeting I think kind of in terms of like how that all is is important for us is that people I think come to church especially younger Generations looking for connection and So churches that

know how to do these kinds of Wesley and small groups will be places that know how to plug people into places of meaningful connection and related relatedness to each other um and I think that's that really is lwh hanging fruit and and our current cultural moment but ironically something that methodism lately hasn't done as well as some other parts of the body of Christ um that's that's really helpful I was just thinking I'm I'm leading a a Group that we're training to be class leaders currently and one of the things I see in groups like

this all the time is a kind of a kind of a um a disdain for the hard differentiation you make between informational and transformational groups in the book and I think there's a there's this you say it too there's an addiction to informational driven groups um and there's a challenge that how do we know how do we know that what we're doing is Transformative if we don't have that information the right learning that's there and could you just speak to that a little bit about why um these groups are trans transform transformational why that's so

important and um why it's okay that it's not a Bible study and based on curriculum that we're not throwing everything out the window kind of thing but will you just speak to that a little bit yeah I mean I think I think F first of all um the fact that you would say Yes to something like class meeting does not by definition mean that you're saying no to other things right so um it it doesn't need to be sort of antagonistically pitting this against something else and saying this is good and the other thing is

bad um I I think the image that I I have have had in kind of my mind for a while I think it actually came through a class that I taught through a student um but was like the idea of of thinking About like a football game um and that that too often church is like the people who go to church go and they get in the seats in the stadium and they sit in the seats but they actually aren't playing football they're watching the teams play football and they're not actually a part of the

game except that they're like in the way that like you know the Seattle Seahawks talk about the 12th man like there's some sense that like HomeField Advantage makes some impact but nobody Thinks they're throwing passes or catching balls or scoring touchdowns or kicking field goals and I think that when you when you frame it in that way um the for me anyway it becomes pretty easy to see that that's not the vision of the Christian Life in the New Testament um the the New Testament vision for the Christian life is about following Jesus it's about

following a person um and allowing your life to be remolded and remade and and um so that You can follow him so you can be an effective kind of uh on Mission and pointing other people to Jesus through your actions and the ways that you speak and so forth and I think that it's really easy to well I'll put it this way I think that in the the the 21st in the 21st century uh and then in the 20th century even more so um the church created a kind of approach to the gospel in the

United States that was pretty broad Spread across many denominations so it's not a critique of methodism really it's a critique I think of kind of dominant Christianity as a whole that we our approach really was like kind of come and cheer for the home team um come to the worship service and the kind of professionals will do they'll do the ministry and you'll observe it um and and then there there were other places where you had a little bit more kind of activity in a sense but oftentimes the The default was to talking about your

faith um and a kind of intellectual way as opposed to talking about what was actually happening like how am I following Jesus today do I have a way I can talk about that with other people am I willing to be held accountable for that and and so forth and I think the class meetings uniqueness then is it it's it's designed to actually change the sort of super structure of the church so that there is no stadium Seating the entire church is the field um and everyone is in the game because they're all being asked week

after week like how's it going like how how is your faith how's it working in your life um and that I think you know we talked we've talked about this before um but I think it's it might be helpful for folks on the webinar like the part of this is the beauty of it is that when you ask a question really anything right Studies have shown over and over again even Outside of like specifically Christian work whatever you measure whatever you count impacts your behavior right so if you get on a scale every morning and

you look at what the number is on the scale it actually Studies have shown it impacts the choices that you make the rest of the day in terms of what you eat or don't eat uh whether you exercise and so forth it just has an impact and so if you choose to step into a discipline where you measure your ability to speak To your lived experience of God it will impact your behavior it will also impact like kind of your spiritual antenna get more and more sensitive and attuned to the holy spirit so that you

start to notice the way that the Lord is at work in your life that were probably happening before you just weren't really noticing because you you weren't looking at your life through the lens of expecting the Lord to be alive and active in your life um but we're more Thinking about just I hope I have the energy to get up and get to church on Sunday morning right which is not bad it's it's very very good um but it's it's not the best I guess is the way I'd kind of point it yeah it's not

it's not everything I love I love your image of the football playing the football game although your reference to 12th man with Seattle is going to tick off any agies that are on the webinar but that's okay um as it was coming out I heard it I was Like this is the wrong group like you you totally missed like some like a there was like you set it up on the tea and then you just somehow Bean yourself that's right that's right I I think um I what I what I've Loved about watching people or

observing people as they go through the class meeting um and as they um begin to trust each other H there's a point where so they turn the corner into your language about um now now they're no longer reflecting on what God has Done in the past week they're they turn this corner and they start to see God at work right right in front of them in real time and they begin to feel what it is to live out that obedience and that following in the middle of it um and it's it's just captivating to me

um that something so simple like this could have such great fruit it was a humbling it was a humbling experience when I first started to do class meeting and I realized all of the things I'm doing um In church and preaching and teaching the fruit of what was happening when people were gathering together and praying together and testifying was was crazy different than anything that I was seeing in the church it was humbling and beautiful all at the same time um so Kevin that leads me to the next uh this next question I I think

um there's probably new challenges that we face that are different than when uh class meetings Existed and and largely to our conversation before this I think a lot of that is uh the inoculation that we have in with marginal just kind of marginal faith and marginal Christianity this is a this is a deep invitation to Bear one's soul with others to trust someone to have an high expectation of what God can do and it's new and it's hard um can you speak to that do you see that as a as a um a greater challenge

that we see in all of our churches is That a Methodist problem is that something that we're just experiencing years and years of a different kind of Christianity and what can we do about it in the middle of it when it comes to Wesley and discipleship yeah I think that's a great question um I think that there is there is a real Temptation um and I think kind of the Lord is actually sifting the church right now in some ways because of this like we we Kind of went through a season where the goal often

explicitly was purely attractional like what do we have to do in order to attract people to come to the church and it's not that wanting people to come to church is bad at all it's just that if if it shifts fully into marketing like what are the programs that I need to put on how is it that I should preach so that people want to come like how do how do the you've kind of reversed the flow of of how all Of this works and instead of like you know how can people be stirred and

awakened the reality of the Living Lord um and submit their lives to him and receive blessing from his hands um and I think that the the challenge of uh previous kind of models and approaches has been that I mean I just think it we have unintentionally taught people that the faith really is just cognitive it's about it's about studying ideas and studying scripture um but and and I Think that in many places to be I I think I some sometimes I'm too sharp on some of this Bible studies always intend to be application I mean

one of the best selling Bible studies of all time is The Life Application Study Bible and I think the reason it's sold so well is because people deeply resonate with this sense of like I want to know how to apply the Bible to my life and so maybe this one will help me with that um and I think it it does do that in in some some really Remarkable ways um and I think but I but I still think that if you yeah I think I just want to say it kind of in this kind

of a directive way the thing that I've found um as I've been working on this for for quite a while is that it's kind of like you said it's really not complicated the problem is that it's vulnerable and it actually never stops being vulnerable when you if you're going to lead something like a Class meeting really what you're going to do is every week you're going to say the Holy Spirit gets the agenda and if he doesn't show up nothing is going to happen it's going to be uncomfortable um and so I'm going I'm going

to show up and be willing to take that risk and trust that that he will um and my experience is that you know I've I've had some times where there were some some awkward moments but for the most part it's it's consistently Shocking to me um that when I take that step kind of in faith that the Lord is is so quick to come um and sometimes so one of the things I think that class leaders do is they're really just holding space they're holding that tension for can we as a group come together to

actually talk about what God's doing uh and and create that that openness and space because we know that if we don't do that we will we'll kind of default to either Small talk to gossip or to like safer places where we're just talking about the passage um I've know like there was a Bible study I was in for a long time with amazing people but it would kind of shift pretty predictably into the this kind of like what did people really think then it just became this kind of intellectual abstraction and sometimes at worst actually

arguing with the clear meaning of the passage like what couldn't have really meant that like That's not credible or that doesn't seem believable to us and and it kind of actually like would sometimes you know come off the rails as opposed to going back to the question of like what's act like what is the Lord actually doing in me and am I being faithful or am I resisting um the work that he's asking me to do and one of the things that's at stake I'd say particularly for folks who are pastors or lay leaders who

are watching is I just think this is I mean The holy spirit is the antidote to burnout but the way it works I think in day-to-day rhythms in living is actually seeing the Holy Spirit doing things in people's lives is what at least has kept me going in in some really difficult seasons of ministry uh is that there there haven't ever been times where when I was willing to create this kind of space or do use the position that I had to just create an opening for people to actually talk about their faith um in

Kind of the deep water the Lord has just always showed up in those spaces and that it doesn't get any better than that like when you actually see someone who like the light has come on and they actually are like I I feel like I was missing something before but I get it now and like it's like they've been activated like that's as good as it gets it's it is it it's really what Ministries actually always been all about is that you're the Lord is using One leader to raise up other leaders not to just

lead by themselves and people to sit and listen to them but it's actually like the calling to leadership really is getting people out of the stands and onto the field in the game yeah um that that leads to another question that I don't I don't want to forget um but just a comment um even tonight uh I'm I have a group that we just got to week eight so we've been together for eight weeks and this group Will potentially start to lead other groups themselves um so this is part of kind of learning what the

class meeting is and considering uh what it what it entails and how they might lead this in the future but 8 weeks in Kevin I I could go around the room and I'm just blown away at what people are like receiving uh healing from from Pain decades ago um are witnessing to their faith at a food truck I mean this was all tonight just hearing testimony after Testimony after testimony and it was just incredible and it wasn't again it wasn't we were we held space together for eight weeks and gave room and challenged each other

a little bit uh really the challenging was about inviting people into a deeper search of what God's doing in their life just by asking questions and praying for them and so yeah it's incredible and um without fail every time we go through this that this happens there's a point In a corner and it takes off yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna go down a a just a quick Rabbit Trail here um I've been particularly just um compelled or convicted that we we don't do a lot of creating discipl making lay leaders within the church and uh

one of the things that I think is very fascinating about the Wesleyan movement is the way in which lay leadership was created through this meeting um I just think that's a a compelling thing I think We've been to uh clergy dependent um and we've we've missed out on a uh one of the great organic moves of the spirit of the Wesleyan movement that I think class meetings are a great location for that will you speak to that a little bit about how class meetings was a location for this kind of lay leadership development not just

the class leader but everyone in a class meeting um and how that could possibly come back into our day as well as something that's Important yeah I mean there's there's so many different ways that like I I could talk about this but I think the first thing that comes to mind is I've been in a lot of contexts where I will hear people exhort uh rooms full of Christians about the need to do evangelism to share their faith um and it strikes me that those conversations are usually in my in my experience like they're purely

aspirational and you get to a point where you realize like Nothing's going to change from what's being said right here like because the the the aspiration doesn't touch the like challenge or the the lack of of equipping to to actually share faith if somebody doesn't know how to share their faith if you tell them they should share their faith it's like a two ships passing in the night right and I actually think that virtually all Christians want to share their faith it's there's not like people going Around it's more like I just don't know how

though I don't know how to do it in a way that won't be offensive that will say the right things and not say the wrong things and and those kind of things and that shouldn't be surprising to us um if we're in contexts where people almost never speak to their faith in any real way you know other than like I can give some idea and this is the other problem like if if your model for discipleship is entirely cognitive then It's also easier to become more and more afraid of saying anything about your faith because

you might say something that's wrong like intellectually wrong and that's like the big foul whereas if if sharing your faith is actually about sharing ing your relationship with a person there's you know it's not good if you're saying things that are about the person that aren't true um but it also is in the mode of testimony which is different than in the mode of catechesis Or a seminary class right the goal of Faith sharing by lay people isn't to be able to teach a theology Master's level class it's to be able to say to somebody

I once was blind but now I see like Jesus rescued me and here's what my life looked like before and here's how it's changed and that's actually an area where every person's an expert nobody knows more about kind of the details of of what your life has been like and how it's you know Been Changed by the Goodness of God than than you do um and so I think that's like I think that's just kind of an initial thing but then I think the other piece is like in early methodism class leaders so so I

I'll make I'm going to make a quick kind of Distinction to sort of like parse a how a church would work so if you think about a preacher um and then you think about like a chaplain um in in our context preachers are people who preach on Sunday chaplain Would be people who care for like the sick or people who are in um difficult situations and they need a pastoral presence with them um usually like kind of in an some kind of emergency situation um but there isn't an expectation when you think about those two

things as as vocations um that the two like that they they don't necessarily go back and forth and in early method today most Methodist churches the pastor in charge is Expected to be both the preacher and the chaplain to their Community but in early methodism and and I would argue the entire time really that it was a a rapidly growing movement um those two jobs actually were pretty separate you had a group of people who were the preachers of methodism and they were just constantly traveling around as much as they could to to get the

message out so they were they were offering Christ they were preaching the gospel they were Teaching the content of scripture and so forth um and then they would move on to the next community and and oftentimes they they'd have like a six week rotation say that you your preacher would come through town and preach and that kind of thing and in the meantime you needed people who were with you dayto day that you could see in the middle of your life but also would be there if if something did happen where you needed to have

someone um provide Immediate kind of pastoral care and support and so forth and in early methodism those people were class leaders the class leaders were really the the they weren't the preachers but they were the pastors of of methodism in its beginnings and I think that one of the the most unfortunate things that happened in the historical development of methodism was that as preachers stopped traveling on circuits and were anchored in churches which I like I mean I think almost everybody would prefer to actually live in a community and have the stability that you have

versus constantly being you know traveling and for those who don't know the history that's also why um most most Pastors in early methodism were single men um and it it just was not a vocation that was suitable to having a family um and so there were kind of challenges around those kind of things but the the the development that was lamentable is that I think in a lot of instances when the circuit writing preacher got off of his horse and he he settled down in a community and was there day after day for you know

usually a year or two appointments changed pretty fast but a year is very different than once every six weeks um and I think a lot of times pastors be the preachers became threatened by the Spiritual Authority and Leadership of their class leaders in their churches and so they sort of it Was almost like what do you why would you need your class leader to do that when the preacher is in town like you can just go talk to him instead and I think that was a like a truly lamentable shift because um every Pastor knows

that their job is is better they are able to be more effective to the extent that they have uh faithful wise um saintly lay leadership in their church not people who can run committee meetings well but people who can pray With other people people who can share the faith meet with coffee and open up the scriptures and you know those kind of things like is is crucial and early methodism had an embarrassment of riches in that if you think about a a church that had 100 people and it would have 10 class leaders you know

and um so the the the church actually could sustain really high level excellent pastoral care uh solely through the lay leadership of the church because you also if you think About the way the class meeting works if somebody doesn't come and you check in with them you find out it's because they had a death in the family and they weren't able to make it and they're struggling with that and so then you have you see the needed but you also already have the mechanism in place for where that need can be cared for where there's

there it people won't get overloaded right if it's a kind of 10 to one ratio kind of thing so those are my Those are my thoughts I don't know if you have other other ways you want to come back at that no no I think I think it's really good I know there's a lot of factors that um influence the U the kind of Disappearing of the class meeting um you've talked written about it in other places but I think that's a really helpful thing also I also think in our churches um we see lay

leaders as those that can run a budget and we don't look for those that can pray and Shepherd and Have spiritual giftings for that which is a a problem or those that have those giftings we put them in the place to run the budget instead of in places is to help Shepherd and lead people as well we need to be able to run the church and the finances and things trustees and Etc at the same time where are we positioning people that have giftings to to provide that care and Leadership so I think the class

leader is a real opportunity the other thing I was Thinking about is um in in the class meeting um not only are we learning what it is to live out our faith like again the football image of playing on the field but we also are learning to take some of the language of the knowledge and information and to apply it to what's happening with in front of us in real time what God's doing around us I think uh for anybody that's listening if I were to ask you right now how is it with your soul

how does your soul Prosper how's your life in God however you want to phrase the transformational question if there's a little panic and a long pause about how to answer that it's probably because we haven't thought about it very much and we haven't seen the world through that lens and this question amongst a group of people that are committed to one another has a real transformative power um that takes us off the sidelines and into the the playing Field so that's good Kevin we've got a lot of lay leaders and pastors um that are watching

how do you what what encouragement would you give to um a pastor or a lay leader or someone that's caught the compelling bug for this but uh is looking at a search that's never done anything like this before it's it's in some ways it's simple but it's it's not as simple as giving somebody a curriculum and say just do this or play the video and then do these discussion Questions and so how would you just encourage them where do we start is I guess the simple way of putting that yeah um I think I the

first thing I would say is like a do not and that is just don't don't let yourself get discouraged by the people who don't respond but focus on the people who do um so if you're in a church that hasn't done this in a really long time and you have a a small group drive or something everybody's not going to sign up for it And sometimes churches have amazing responses and and sometimes they they don't there's just not much interest um but if you have three people who are ready to say yes to this then

run with it like pour into them spend your time and energy there um I would say to to pastors if this isn't in something that's in your church at all I don't think you can spend time anymore more wisely than on this because if you do this for two years with three people in Two years you'll have three lay leaders that won't just be people who can check boxes like like we said on committees though those are necessary in the ways the church has has been run in the past but you it's it's Mo like

we're failing at a basic level if all we can do is raise up lay leadership to run committee meetings like we need to actually raise up lay leadership that is carrying the mission of the church and so um I I would encourage you to to think about The end in that regard like I I'm discipling people so that they can disciple people who will disciple people that's that's the vision that's what we're after um and I would also say that don't don't let yourself become discouraged when the people who say yes start to get Restless

about kind of like well what's next um I think we all kind of in this cultural moment have uh a little bit of kind of like attention deficit disorder and also like chasing Spiritual highs and so we like people love experiences and cool experiences and so there's some people who can say yes to this initially because like this sounds like a real spiritual Challenge and I want to be you know press myself and test myself in a new way and they'll do it and then there's some cool stuff that happens but then six weeks to

six months in it's kind of like okay well what next like what's the thing that's going to feel scary and hard and intense Next um that I can shift into and part of what happens in the class meeting is it kind of is mundane at some level but I think it's not it's not really like growth it's like this it's kind of more growth it's like Steps like you'll see like I'm walking in in confidence and connection to the Lord in a way I never have before and I I can maybe tell a story about

exactly how that sort of Step Up happened like I know I was here and then the Lord just Brought me here and I know what that was and sometimes it's like I'm not even sure I just know that like there's an intimacy and fellowship that I'm having and I'm aware of with the Lord that I I wasn't even looking for really before and and people get can just get really excited about that which is amazing um but then it's also when you get leveled up you just you have to keep doing the things that you

did that brought you there in the first place it's like when Um somebody reads the Bible cover to cover for the first time it's unlike any other book because you don't just okay I'm done I've read the Bible now and you just don't need to read it anymore it's you know the scriptures are the inspired word of of God not only but in part because the more you read them the more you chew on them the more they yield the more they offer um and I think that all of the means of Grace all of

these kind of basic core spiritual practices are Like that the more that you do them you never graduate from them the more you do them the more that that you get from them they they bless you you know over the long term sort of more and more prayers like that um I think fasting is like that I think communion is like that and and I think that that the class meeting is is the same um and just kind of because I'm in that space like I'll just say too that one of the things that I

think pastors and L lady should should Sort of think about at the outset as one of the really cool things that will happen if you do this is that there will be people who will be in these groups and it'll just be kind of okay um it's good but it's not life-changing and then what usually happens it really pulls a group together is there's a crisis something happens in someone's life in the group and then all of a sudden like they need community and this is the community that they have and so they Bring their

story to the group and the group is there to care for them and like um pour into them and pray for them and right they actually have like incarnate community in a way that they wouldn't have otherwise and that oftentimes is what kind of changes the the dynamic of the group to where it's like okay yes we're with each other for the Long Haul because now we see that like I want that too if that happens to me I want to have people who are going to be there to hold My hand to be there

to listen to me and and to care you know and um that's a that's one of the things that has really kept me going over the long term with the kind of small group formation stuff because it just like it really bothers me to think about faithful Christian people who when they have some kind of death in the family or really difficult personal moment um that that they don't the idea of them not having Christian Community to surround them in the midst Of that space it's just it's not how it's meant to be and but

it also doesn't just happen it's not something that's just automatic it actually takes work um and I love the the Dallas Willard quote in that regard where he says Grace is not opposed to effort it's opposed to earning right so it's okay that it actually takes work to build these things that we desperately need uh we just don't say look what I did you know when we receive the blessing of God Through them we just give thanks yeah um so much so much of what you just said is resonating with me and also um what

I appreciate about your honesty uh both here but also in the book is we're not presenting like another program for your church with 10 steps to success or do this or x amount and get why but this is a spiritual discipline and it's a place that God honors as we walk together um and create these relationships and it has Deep Impact and fruit both individually but also corporately and in in the community um I also like I also appreciate your reminder to leaders to um to be okay with how people receive or don't receive it

uh I just tell you all I've had plenty of people say this isn't for me and you just got to be okay with them saying all right that's okay I I hope at some point it will be um there and really the witness and testimony that comes from others that are Experiencing becomes a witness to the people that are around it even those that say maybe this isn't for me right now and I just think we we need to resist uh particularly if you're in a larger Church to resist um like hyper programming this thing

and launching them all all at the same time and having I just I think you can't there's some things you can do there but I think this is a organic move of the spirit it's about building Relationships and um as you said if I can spend a year or two years with three people just think about the impact that that'll have multiplying out and think about how um those groups might be able to have that same multiplication impact for others that are around you so I guess all that to say Kevin I just appreciate your

honesty and and um being clear that this isn't just something else that we're selling this is a part of who we are and Part of what it means to be Christian and it's a part of what helps us to see God at work around us and in real time so I I think that's helpful and appreciative I see a lot of leaders that are looking for the formula on how to do it which transitions me to this next Point um we haven't talked much about nuts and bolts I mean you know it's you know 10

to 12 uh men and women meeting together but you just said if you got three people do It with three people so give us for those that are might be in different sizes of churches what constitutes like what is in the class meeting what makes it a class meeting and what makes it not a class meeting so that those that are thinking okay what do I practically do here's who I have in front of me how do I get this going yeah so I think at its basic level what makes it a class meeting is

if you meet on a consistent basis with the same People and you're talking about your present the present state of your relationship with the Lord I think the question can probably be framed in a variety of ways and people land on kind of the the phrasing like sometimes I've just noticed in some groups like a particular phrasing of it just feels uncomfortable to people or it's awkward to them and so it gets shifted but it's like everybody kind of gets it like what we're after is like what's going on in Your relationship with God like

what's actually happening you know how are you really in your faith and um and a lot of times I I don't know if you've experienced this but in in established groups it gets to where the question is not even really asked explicitly anymore people just go around the circle and check in basically and share share what they they want to share from the past week um and so I think that's that's kind of the core of it it's not a class Meeting if you read my book and you discuss the ideas in the book as

a group together and you talk about how interesting it would be if you did the scale of 1 to 10 thing and how would people react to that and would it be comfortable or not and then when it's over you know you move on to you know Tim Keller Max book or what whatever like you just move on to a different book that you study that's that's not a class meeting so the point Isn't to you know just learn ideas and stuff and um you know about our history or who we were it's not like

trying to create a better like sense of Team identity it really is like this is this is a key uh it's kind of a Cornerstone of how discipleship actually happens um it's it's branded in a particular way um we haven't really talked about this but class meeting is actually a terrible name for what it's actually doing doing in our current context because we all Think if you say class people think a classroom you go sit in and learn ideas and you know it's from a teacher upfront talking to students who are hopefully sitting still and

quiet um and that isn't actually what what this is about but it's so feel free to call them something different um but it's you know basically that that's the core thing is like are you getting together is a group where every person is given an opportunity to share what's happening um In in their current relationship with the Lord and you asked I think another piece of that question but I I I dropped it can you yeah no I just I think I think you covered it I'm just thinking like um you know you mentioned you

mentioned if you have three people start with three people so it doesn't have to have a certain number of people it doesn't need to be exactly a certain way I think I think the most important thing is not to Create obstacles that don't need to be there for you to start I I I talk about my setting you know I have a kind of a home run when I'm starting a class that I hope it's uh that it's diverse that it's multigenerational that it's diverse in faith walk that there's some that um are deeply mature

in the faith and there's some that are um curious and trying to figure this thing out and um and then uh that there's grandparents uh with new Parents and singles I I just think that's a beautiful thing I love that it's I my home runs that it's in homes that it's in the same home at the same time every single week but at the same time again those are my home runs I don't want to create those as obstacles so if we need to have child care in order to be able to pull off a

group we're going to have it at the church and we're going to figure out a way to make it happen um or you know I Don't know if I ever I think I told this to you years ago but um I start started a group in a nursing home well that's not very generationally diverse right like uh there there was a lot of people in the same kind of walk but it was a place that people were hungry and wanted to do it and there's power in them getting together so that's I think that's I

just wanted to say out loud start is like critical and here's what's part this is what makes it a class Meeting and however bring it together is important yeah for sure and the there was something else I meant to say and lost my my thread which was um I also think like you you just kind of framed like where do you start I I think the first thing to do is this is going to sound so Pious but I really mean it is to pray and ask the Lord to show you the people that he's

kind of stirring up and preparing to be in these groups um I think that that you there's there will Be some sort of like intuition in that that will feel like common sense like I just know I have a good relationship or it's easy to be around this person and I I bet they would be interested in this that's great but I also just want to kind of encourage people to uh be open to the possibility that the connections that God makes could be surprising right don't just assume because there's the person who always like

sits in church with their arms folded never sings the Songs and just looks like they don't really like being there um that that they aren't they don't have more going on into the surface than you can see um or that maybe that is maybe what you see is where they're at but they're also ready to be challenged and would respond to that so you know I I really want to encourage people to to ask God to guide and direct who they ask um and then as best you can like try to be light-hearted about that

then ask if you Feel like God's asking you to ask you know John to be in it ask him um and if he says no then that's okay like you won't die because you extended an invitation and the person said that they couldn't do it or didn't want to you'll you'll be okay um and so you can you can be kind of like laidback and light-hearted about that and I always kind of just like if I if it feels uncomfortable I just name that and lead with it like this may seem like it's out Of

nowhere for you but I just keep praying about this and you keep coming to mind which first of all how would our churches just be better if that kind of conversation happened like you were praying and you were thinking about me like that you know like um and uh but then I just and then I just give them permission though like it it might have just been me but I just I feel like I'm supposed to ask you if you'd be willing to consider this and pray about it and See what see what you think

you know and um that stuff is it's it's really fun it's really fun it doesn't always go perfect um but it is it beats the Alternatives you know of playing it safe not taking any risks and um and and when when the Lord like you'll have times if you do that where God will give you a name of someone that you'll just be like there's no way and then a year later you'll just be like I can't believe what God has done through this per in this Person's life it's so amazing and I'm so thankful

that I just took that very simple risk you know I mean the when you think about it from those those kind of standpoints the risks are so trivial and small when if there's ever a possibility that a person's life actually with the Lord takes off right and goes to a new level it's just it's it's awesome we have nothing to lose all for a moment of just getting out of your comfort yeah yeah I one of the coolest Things I think uh so as a church leader I we will preach and teach about this stuff

and we'll help organize groups and create you who wants to join and what's your schedule like and all that but one of the coolest things is I I also at the same time encourage leaders to pray about and invite uh people to be a part of their own group and then we'll help you along the way um and that's an amazing experience it's a first step of kind of leadership too and I like Watching groups as a whole pray about who they can invite to their class together next that's a really neat thing in the

way the Lord might confirm that among multiple people and uh it's just a that's cool it creates Unity together um so I appreciate that yeah that actually reminds me of one practical thing if I can say it real quick is that in like a Bible study or particularly a Sunday school class I think you would almost Always assume I mean there may be exceptions in some Churches but generally speaking it's assumed that like anybody can invite anybody else it's kind of like worship like you don't need to ask the pastor is it okay if I

invite my neighbor to church like if if you're at a church where your pastor doesn't want you to do that wants you to ask for permission go to a different Church like you know like that you're supposed to do that you have freedom and Permission but class meetings actually are different I think um there and I'd be interested if you disagree but I was actually in a a group that was trying to be kind of a hybrid class meeting and we had a season where different people would just like oh I just wanted to invite

like like literally you would come to the group and there would be a person there that you had never met before and and then someone would just say yeah I invited so and so and um and I think that's actually it's so it's so the right heart like it's such the right intentions but if your goal is actually to kind of build vulnerability and trust and go to deeper and deeper places in kind of relational intimacy that can be super disrupted right if if somebody's like really struggling in their marriage and they've been talking about

that for a few weeks and then you bring in someone they don't know at all they're not going to want to Continue that conversation and so it can be challenging so it's not to say that the groups should be closed in in like a firm sense but just that I think what's different is that if you and I were in a band meeting and a class meeting and I felt like I wanted to invite my friend Joe to come I would feel like I needed to bring that to the group first like hey I really

keep thinking about Joe and just feeling like the Lord is wanting me to invite him what do you guys think About that is that something that you could see and giving the group a chance to talk about it first so anyway that's that's a that's a practical thing that I think is helpful no I I don't disagree with you at all had groups that um maybe uh somebody's going through something pretty traumatic and private uh uh intentionally be closed for a little while yeah or stay closed for eight to 10 weeks so they can really

build that trust before they then would open Themselves up to praying about who they would invite to a group um I've also had groups try to not be Invitational at all because they don't want to mess it up so we try to find that balance a little bit Y and uh because these should be about multiplication evangelism and inviting people to be a part of it so you just have to strike that balance as a leader of helping classes to see that balance and how they can work through that but I think you said it

well yeah well Kevin I Think um I think it let's talk about some Q&A uh here we've got a few questions that have been given and Zach if you at any point need to get on to ask any of them uh let us know you can do that um but I'll start with what I see in the Q&A the first one we we haven't talked about bands very much Kevin and so how do class meetings this is Bob's question Bob Hagar how do class meetings and bands work together for discipleship what are those Relationships and

how can you see that in the local church yeah I think I think that the the class meeting is for everybody so the expectation is that anyone who is uh connected to your church in a a consistent way not just the first-time visitor but um it the the ideal would be that that everybody is connected to a class meeting that's how it worked in early methodism band meetings were like a Deeper cut of people who have come to faith in the Lord and their faith is like they're pressing after entire sanctification and so they're they're

wanting the whole thing and um and they so they were always voluntary and they they were never you wouldn't get removed from membership in methodism if you didn't attend a band meeting but for many decades in methodism you would if you weren't attending your class meeting meeting so it's a pretty big difference Um the bands were also divided by gender so like one thing that I've noticed in a lot of um Evangelical non-denominational churches is that they'll have a small group Ministry where that is like co-ed every other week and then divides and then like

week two is like just men and week four is just women and so there's this kind of instinct that we know that there are some things that we it's easier to talk about if it's just men together with men and things that are Easier for women to talk about if there aren't men around and so forth and so that's a piece of it too is really basically in the band meeting you're confessing sin like you're trying to purge sin for the sake of growth and Holiness and so it's a deeper step it's more intimate and

even more vulnerable um and and so as a result it it requires U greater trust and they're also smaller they usually band meetings which usually have three to five people in them So yeah that's good I think um PR pragmatically like just practically in the church I have uh talked about class meetings very public and tried to invite any and all that would be a part of class meetings and band groups we do much more organic um and invite people sometimes um I'll come across three or four people just in my pastor's office I'm like

these four need to be together in a band I know it they're hungry for more and I've seen a lot of people in Classes end up wanting to experience more and the band group is the right thing to go to and add into their spiritual practices yeah so yeah I've seen that play out in different ways but some Churches some Churches go all in at bands I just haven't I haven't experience in my context uh I think bands are a really deep place to start with a general group that's um experiencing the kind of church

that we've experienced in in our Time and in our country to jump into a band is like almost unproductive because we haven't taken the steps that lead up to that uh and class meeting is something that I really think is a great step so okay uh question another question from Duncan Williams in your book Kevin you describe how a single class meeting May start and then spinoff in new groups meeting at random times at random places throughout the week do you think at the Inception of the GMC there Is an opportunity to start these groups

in a large scale through adding to the Sunday morning schedule um in other words do should we figure out these are important should we figure out maybe even like Sunday morning how do we put in every classroom on the church campus these class meetings is that something we should think about why or why not yeah that's a great question I love that um I'll say that I think especially For new church starts I think that that would be so I I I got to preach at a church in North Oklahoma City and New Church Plant

um last Sunday week ago today and they were actually saying during the announcements that that's the first kind of big step after just launching the church and having weekly worship is going to be starting class meetings and trying to do some teaching on that figuring out who's interested in that kind of thing um so I think there Is a real opportunity I and I think that it it does make sense uh in terms of like time constraints and things like that to to pair it up with Sunday worship so you if you have an opportunity

to you know have basically a class meeting hour and a Worship Hour um I think that's a a great thing and in a lot of contexts you could actually do you could reverse those if you had two worship Services right you could have class meetings during both times so that People have have a chance to to have either sync up with the people that have felt connected to and made connections with when they first came to the church or um based on the the worship service they attend and that kind of thing so I think

it's a great idea um I think that the the challenge of the I'm I'm kind of like a total pragmatist on this stuff and I'm I'm I'm learning so much from the doing so I'm in favor of taking risks I'm in favor of trying things and So I'd say if you see the opportunity and you see a path to doing it like go for it go go big and um and trust the Lord to to to make a way the the challenge that I've experienced and John Wayne I'm assuming is probably similar for you from

the things that you said but you can you can speak to however you want of course is raising up enough class leaders like that's usually for me the challenge of like like large scale launches is if you're in a church that Hasn't done anything like this at all it's hard to start 20 class meetings because that assumes that you have 20 people who are ready to lead those groups and that can be a real challenge um I was at a new church plant in uh East Dallas it was called Munger Place Church back when I

was in my PhD program and one of the ways we addressed that is we did during the time that was planning for the launch of the new church we started a group uh they were called Kitchen groups there and our ours but they were basically class meetings but we met for I don't know I think it was probably around a year but it was with the understanding that when the church actually launched that we would divide up in twos to lead new small groups so that there would be the opportunity to provide six groups for

the new church out of the gate and then hopefully kind of continue from there and I thought that worked pretty well because it Allowed the the the planting pasture to kind of like impart spiritual DNA into this group he was meeting with every week for a season um so that when those groups then spread to places where he wasn't present that there was at least some sense of like a pattern has been created and um and that kind of thing so I thought that that worked pretty well and was helpful um I do think big

picture that the GMC would really miss a moment of opportunity if it didn't do Exactly what East Texas is doing and see this as the right time to to sort of plant a flag and say look we're going to make mistakes every class meeting we start isn't going to work they sometime like small groups are like organisms and that means they die and their lifespans are different they're not all the same and so there will be there'll be hiccups there will be mistakes there will be failures um and that's okay but there's there's also going

to be a lot of Victory and some some cool testimonies and stories of what the Lord does if if we just kind of determine to move in this Direction and relearn how to how to do it it just takes people like John Wayne who I see as an expert practitioner but what I mean five years ago you weren't doing anything with class meetings right so it's right um learned a lot of lessons along the way a lot of failures and a lot of mess ups and that's hard for me I like to Control everything so

it's been a sanctifying journey for me too um yeah I'm a I'm a big believer in the um spending time with leaders before launching the groups and so my practice it doesn't have to be for everyone but my practice is to actually use Kevin's book and do a class meeting for 8 to 10 weeks with potential leaders and then I I want them to self- select their calling as Leaders so I give them an out at the end maybe they're called to be a Part of a group and not lead one yet or maybe they're

ready to lead or hopefully at least they learn some transformative practices for their Sunday school and things like that so that uh at the end I've got maybe half the room is like no I'm in I'm ready to lead and I want to do this or some others are saying no not yet because what I've seen is uh largely groups um are successful I hate that word but groups um find their way in the class meeting based on if that leader Understands what the class meeting is uh is at least practiced in some way at

how to make space for what God wants to do in the room uh and can learn a little bit of leadership and so to the best of my ability I try to show what a class leader is for eight to 10 weeks yeah we launch them and then Provide support much like the early methodists how can I become now someone who supports those class leaders in continuing growth and Checking in with them and seeing how things are going yeah that's good and I I I want to just sort of highlight what you said um and

agree with it that in a sense class meeting Leadership Learning to do class meeting stuff it's kind of an apprenticeship model so exactly what you said is right that you're you're showing like here's how you hold space Here's how you um help people to step in if they're tending to hold back here's how You help people to wrap it up if they're tending to talk too long and those kind of things and um I think it's helpful to say this there are very few people who just intuitively are like were born knowing how to do

this but it also is not that hard to teach like there's skills that actually can be taught to a very wide range of people probably not everybody but it's I think it's a very large percentage of people in the church would be capable of doing this if they Were willing to step in with someone like yourself being willing to help launch them right give them a sense of like here you could like I it's that the apprenticeship thing is like I do you watch we do it together then you do it and I watch and

I think if you have spaces like that it helps to lower the risk for for folks and you know in terms of of stepping in yeah yeah I agree and I think I think also there's opportunity for class leaders to find someone who Can come up as a leader within their class meeting uh as a potential way to multiply and grow these things um so we talk about that a lot who else could who else could you intentionally um help to grow into this role as a leader uh in the future all right so I'm

going to keep moving so I'm not I want to be respectful of your time are you okay on time for another 10 10 15 minutes okay yep um okay so I think we just answered this what is the Specific role of the pastor in a class meeting does the pastor participate to help a class launch yes the only thing I've seen colleagues um try and Lead like four or five class meetings I don't think that's the best practice I think if you help it to launch and then you've identified someone that can lead that like

co-lead with you for a while and then they take it on later on or the model I was just talking about about training leaders and Then helping them to launch uh I I just would now I think Kevin says this pretty uh clearly in the book as a pastor you gota you got to believe in this and be a part of it if your your church is gonna be a part of it if they're gonna say yes to this so it has to happen on Sunday morning from the pulpit it has to happen by your

leadership so I think that's really critical yep yep you have to buy what you're selling yeah yeah I would the only thing I would say like Different is I don't disagree with anything thing that you said but I could also see someone like you eventually getting to the place where you feel like in the same apprenticeship way you've actually raised up someone who can take on sort of the class meeting Ministry um I don't think that by definition has to be a pastoral role um but I I I do think it should be a particular

person who's carrying it and kind of has ownership and responsibility for it yeah I it uh The first church I served where we saw like 18 of these groups eventually we had a lay person that was actually training leaders yeah was kind of overseeing it all and that was a great great experience so I think that's I think that's right um okay how do you respond uh to a Time deficit that most people feel they have um you know especially young families at least in my context with extracurricular activities and everything that happens every night

Of the week and we have Sunday school and bible study and now you're asking me to do one more thing what's your response to that yeah I I think that I'm a pretty big believer that I think one of the things that leaders do is that they tell people they provide Clarity that these are our priorities like if we get to set the priorities for you and your family here's what they would look like and then people get to make a decision about Whether they'll respond to those you know do what's being asked or not

they can always say well no I just want to go to church or I just want to do this this or that and you know candidly we we kind of know that most lay people aren't willing to go to church every Sunday and so there there's not a a commitment to just you know basic routines in that sense for you know it varies within every church but every church has a variety of levels of commitment within Within the congregation um I a I I am generally a fan of or a believer in setting like strong

expectations for what I believe should be people's top priority which I do think that one of the greatest challenges of our present age is helping people to actually truthfully have the gospel at the center of their lives in terms of how they spend their time and money um and and so I this is a place where I Tend to not lean as much into a marketing type approach like I'm I'm not going to work really hard to sell you on this being convenient and it'll work like you can still do all the other worldly things

you want to do and just get this extra little bit of Jesus and I'm not saying that's what the person asking the questions intending I'm just saying that I I feel that Temptation in myself um and I so I think that as church leaders we have to get clear on If if we could get people to do four things what would they be and what would the order of them be like we need to actually know that in our own thinking so that it's clear to the people that if I'm if I am like really

committed to this these are the four things that my pastor is saying I should be doing every week and I know what they are and I know doing them so I know that like this is the win from the church's perspective but they also should be like ranked in Some sense um and I think that it is I think it's fair game to ask for two to three hours a week um and I think that if you do that then you have the opportunity to participate in um worship which I think should be first and

I think then you have the opportunity to be in a class meeting which I think should be second and I think you have the opportunity and there are seasons like I think that something like confirmation kind of basic catechism There's a there's a season where that would be like the clear like second priority for a person um but generally speaking big picture I think the class meeting is the second thing that that a person ought to do and then the third one would be some kind of like uh context where you're reading scripture and continuing

to learn and grow in your understanding of your faith and a lot of people are going to choose travel baseball instead um but that's I'm not going to lead as best I can by the grace of God in a way that encourages that but instead I'm going to going to try to to have the best priorities and then also to to think strategically about how can I help them to say yes to the gospel even if they're also wanting to say yes to things that are are good you know that are um they're not bad

things they're just they're problematic if they're choking out the space for your family to worship And and follow the lord um so like our church has started a Thursday night service and we lean into that as like if you can't be in church on Sunday that's okay come to the Thursday night service like we really believe that you should go to worship every week and so like this is our attempt to kind of remove that excuse in a sense is like you you have some reason you can't come to church on Sunday totally get it

it's fine um will you consider coming to the Thursday evening service that's in a completely different place in the schedule where there's a pretty good chance if you can't come to church on Sunday you can come Thursday night and then at least people have the clarity of like I just don't want to I'm not willing to right I just think it's good to kind of know where you stand in that sense yeah it's good um yeah we we uh yeah we need to be as Leaders clear that we do think that something like this is

More important than travel baseball and have the courage to at least say it out loud uh now can you get everyone to choose that or make that decision for themselves that's a different that's a different story but we haven't often U kind of stated it clearly about how important this is and witnessed to it and given a compelling reason why it is y all right um this I'll come back to this one it's a Methodist question um are you are you familiar with a mayus Groups Union groups um someone asked a question about class meetings

and bands being pretty similar to that you would say that's probably one of the closer experiences or this almost every time that I do like an hourong teaching on like here's what the like for a long time what I would do in this context would have been more just like historical like this is what this was and almost every time people come up to me afterwards and they're like that's Like an amus reunion group so I think I think they were actually intentionally created to be um similar to to the I think they are kind

of almost like a hybrid of you know the class and band meeting yeah and I and I would just say to anybody that's been on ammus and are part of ammus reunion groups think about how fruitful and impactful those can be and have been to you and how something similar like similar to that uh would be fruitful and a blessing to your local Congregation um okay the risk of a pastor being in a class meeting or a band meeting with congregants uh I would I'm interested in your take before I say anything here because I

think this is a challenge that we have to think clearly about about a pastor being in a band meeting with congregants or in a class with congregants yeah that's a really good question and I think it's a complicated one um the first thing I would say is That I think that the pastor him or herself needs to do what like you shouldn't there isn't a universal answer where like whether you're comfortable with it or not you should do it so one way you could get a universal answer is if I just said it's inappropriate for

a pastor to ever be in a group with parishioners I don't think that's true I don't I'm not convinced that that's the case but I can see someone feeling like they just have a hard time being in that Space and so then like you said before they need to be in a class meeting with other pastors then um and be able to talk about that and the work that it's doing in their church and so forth um I think that there are there are risks in terms of like if the the pastor is going to

be really vulnerable and if there's places where they're struggling then um I think there are places where that would be the place where there's a no is like if you're if a pastor is struggling In a place that um isn't appropriate for church members to know about or would be harmful to the church in some way um then they need to find the appropriate place to engage in those ways but I also Al these conversations always make me uncomfortable because I think there's almost like an implication that like if you're sinning instead of telling anybody

you should just not tell anybody and actually like it shouldn't be that we clutch our pearls if we find out that Someone's really struggling but instead like the wesling approach is always like we believe that there's one who's able and willing to like bring healing and wholeness in this place and I do think there are times when people need to be removed from Ministry or have a break from Ministry I mean that that stuff is all super super complicated so I'm not trying to have like um you know one siiz fits-all approaches to that but

I don't I don't believe that sort of by Definition it's it's wrong um for for pastors to be to be participants in groups um and part of that for me is like my very the first time I was invited to be in a band meeting was before I was invited to be in a class meeting and it was with two professors of mine when I was in seminary so it was a it was very vulnerable um for them to to do that and um and I'm really thankful because I got to have a different kind

of relationship that was Was pretty unique um to those two people um that I wouldn't have had you know if I hadn't been invited into that group and I think it also marked me to carry it in a way that I probably wouldn't have been um if you know if they hadn't actually walked through that experience with me as someone who wasn't an expert teaching me about it but was a a follower of Jesus walking through it yeah yeah I think uh I agree completely I think it's especially if you take one At a time

in the class meeting I really think it's important for us to be a part of them I think you can witness to your faith and what what God's doing in your life in careful ways that wouldn't create harm um in the group um there's a lot of ways to answer that question and so sometimes I am careful that I'm not airing out you know a struggle I'm having with a staff member as part of my share or something like that uh so that I wouldn't create um harm to anybody in That in that setting so

you just careful uh one of the most fruitful experiences was finding a class leader that would feel comfortable with me being in their class meeting as a pastor uh so that my wife and I could be in a class that I was not leading and I thought that was really uh a fruitful experience and um the Lord blessed that in amazing ways I will say it's I think it's really complicated with a band meeting you got to be really careful there I think for Sure um I think when you're in a band meeting Kevin you

might agree with this or not um but I think you change the nature of the relationship with pastor and congregant once you confess sin in that way and it's not to say that we should hide the fact that we sin and we need to confess that it's just it does change the relationship so you have to you really need to invite people to be prayerful about joining your group as a as a pastor when you're you're putting a Band together um and in this season right now I haven't found folks that I feel comfortable so

I'm in a band group out outside of the church uh with other leaders okay I'm Gonna Keep moving here um what is a good technique or ad how do you create confidentiality and trust and what do you do if it's broken in a in a class meeting yeah I think that's something that needs to be talked about explicitly and and pretty regularly um in terms of I I Actually I feel like confidentiality is the most kind of essential quality for these groups and if it's broken it it really breaks the group group um so it's

probably the one thing that I would be most clear that if there's and I don't even know if I I always struggle a little bit about this kind of speaking about it live to groups of people but to me it's almost like the I I don't really mean this but it's almost like the unpardonable sin of small group Formation stuff like if you I I probably would say if I was doing trainings if you break confidence in this group like you'll be removed from the group um because it's a precious gift to be able to

be a part of it and by breaking confidence you're actually you're taking control away from the rest of the group to destroy it because the group is just rationally it's not going to continue to meet if you're telling what's happening in the group to other people that aren't In the group it's a rational response to say I'm not coming anymore um and so rather than allowing a person to do that it's makes more sense to just tell them they can't come anymore so that the rest of the group can continue having a an appropriate and

uh healthy place for confidentiality is honor um and I think it's a place where you do sometimes unfortunately uncover um some some real spiritual maturity in the church um where people just have have Kind of minimized and rationalized gossip as something that isn't that big of a deal and doesn't hurt anybody and it actually really does um so I think that's a it's a really big deal and I think you just for me you just take it headon and you just say this is not permitted it's it's not acceptable and and you know there there

will be um the church will resp respond if if there's if there's a problem with gossip in the group for the sake of the health of the Group as a whole and so that people can keep growing in their faith yeah I think and that's a that's one of those hard lessons that a class leader is going to have to learn how to deal with when it happens because you're right it and I think it's one of the challenges we didn't get to talk to a whole lot but I think one of the challenges we

have is we have not submitted to or LED with accountability that would call that out all the time in The church and to do about it so that's a challenge for sure y um what was the four primary focuses you mentioned I don't know if you if those were just things you were listing off as examples but you talked about worship class meeting reading scripture and was there a fourth one yeah I didn't actually name a fourth one I think probably in my head I just was saying that you need to establish what those priorities

are I I think probably I was thinking about the Band meeting as the the the other one in terms of probably why I came up with four most people I think realistically you're right like most people are probably going to be in the class meeting or the band meeting and if I had a church where everybody was in a class or band meeting I'd do cartwheels I mean that would be hug one that's right okay uh Duncan Williams um does anyone want to start a class meeting leadership support group hey Duncan reach out to me

Um or and we'll the as a committee we'll see if we can get something like this uh working or support you in the meantime that's awesome yeah that's great and then last question that we have here and then I want to end this so thank you everyone for your Q&A and questions that you put forward and for those that are watching um but this last question is a more of a kind of your take on a historical methodism and how it might speak into rural settings so with a Shortage of pastors and decline in rural

churches is their application following the model of the first 75 years of methodism in America of a pastor preaching once or twice a month using lay speakers to root rotate through several churches do you see that as a need to um I think we're probably experiencing that a lot right now in the G and different places uh a shortage of pastors to serve these appointments and inability for churches to be able to pay A full-time clergy y all of those may be a long-term challenge for us Kevin so do you see something in our history

that might speak into that yeah I do I think I think it it is relevant I think there's two kind of ways that that could happen one is that you could have a kind of bivocational model where someone has another job or a primary source of income but is called to preach the gospel and so um does does go to to churches that can't support a Full-time and full benefits package for uh you know a pastor but is able to to provide that key support role and I actually love the the question in the context

of this conversation because a person that could really be like a like missional dynamite in the best way would be someone who can preach and in a way that's a blessing to these different communities but also has a heart for class meetings and has is like marked to raise up people for this ministry Because if you were doing both of those things preaching like basically coming into like lead a worship service but also like equipping how to start class meetings um you would create uh those are the kind of key tools I think is that

churches because the class meeting piece as we're talking about it is about lay leadership so you need to both help raise up lay leadership that's there every day on the ground but also provide kind of the the spiritual covering in Terms of leadership that's coming one of the things I just throw out there um that I've thought about as as a model that I think could be really interesting um is for a way for some of like I I feel like some of the larger churches are wrestling with like what's the role in the GMC

do they want to be a part of it like how do these things work there's some instances where some really large churches if they join the GMC they'd like break the budget for the conference In a way that I think would actually be unhealthy for the conference itself and I think one way that you could have some really cool like relationships would be if a larger Church actually had a traveling evangelist on staff that was under their budget but was basically like their job at least part part of their job was to actually go from

that church to preach and other contexts on Sunday morning um and I think that could be really powerful because a lot of our Larger churches have larger pastoral staffs but you know the senior pastor preaches every Sunday and so it would also give an opportunity for some of those you know really brilliant gifted Associates to get to do more preaching in in different spaces too so I think there's some interesting opportunities for Creative um Ministry contexts and but to the to the question yes I think having um basically circuit some version of circuit writing preachers

that are Combined with class leaders would be great and I think that it it might be that the best way to to think about starting Church plants is actually you know house churches basically where you you're starting with a class meeting and if that grows then at some point you move to a public worship service somewhere that that could have two or three class meetings that are meeting outside of that time Kevin I have to ask this last Question because it came through and it's fascinating to me so and then I promise no more Q&A

and we'll close it down but uh Zach says in pafic Island countries it is culturally taboo to expose oneself to the community in order to keep the name of their family so I'm think an honor shame kind of culture um there is a rise in methodism in this region but how do we Implement class and ban meetings to this region there's a form of this type of meeting that goes On in the Pacific called cell groups that meet weekly but it does not go deep in vulnerable ways like the class and the bands so what

do you do in a in a different culture like that or how would you respond to that that's a great question um I think the challenge of kind of cultural translation is is being clear about what the essentials are and where the places are that that the gospel can Be adapted for for cultural reasons and so that it can be embedded um thinking just through like uh you know the the scripture passage is always used as the justification for the band meeting is James 5:116 and that seems like something that would go would be the

kind of thing that would go beyond cultural um adaptability so James 5:16 says um therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you might be healed um and and so I Think I think that would be a place where I would be trying to find a way as a missionary to work with like this to me I think it' be part of the conversion that was happening is that this is in in the church we're not doing this in the community we're doing this within the church and within the church

um this is actually a healthy building up thing and we can show you why according to the tenants and convictions of our Faith yeah that's good I haven't I haven't thought about that in a different culture yeah that's a good question I mean and I don't know how good that answer was but that's what I got off the cuff yeah I yeah I don't I don't have much else to add I mean I would again don't create more obstacles that are there find a way to to get at the heart of this in your context

if it's important um there may be some way ways That you need to uh create more trust and vulnerability or trust and confidentiality in a group uh be hyper protective there and Hyper important so okay let me let me uh wrap this up um with Kevin any last thoughts or encouragement to you know we've got 60 over 60 people that are still with us and a lot more that'll see this later on so any last words or encouragement that you would give to those that are that Are listening yeah I just think I just want

to say that my I kind of said this before but this where I want to end like my experience really has been that it's always vulnerable to say hey we're going to create space to share about what God's been doing in our lives um I always end my classes that I teach with that like we do a love Feast at the end of the semester and I always ask students to just think about sh what they would share of their experience of God's work in their lives throughout the semester not even particularly related to the

course and every time I'm always convinced at some level there's a part of me that thinks no one's going to have anything to say this time and I think I've only ever done that one time in all my years of teaching and all the classes I've taught where somebody didn't cry like in a good way like a you know it's like it's it's a really powerful time um and the time that nobody cried it still Felt like it was exactly what it was supposed to be it was just like I was like oh somebody always

cried somebody cried today um and so just the encouragement one that it's okay that it's vulnerable like you're not doing something wrong if it feels vulnerable if you kind of have this a little bit of concern that what if nothing happens it's totally normal but also that uh from from people like me who been in this for a pretty good amount of time The the reason I keep doing it is because it works because I see the Lord give testimonies to people um you know and that's that's what we're doing that's what we're about I

mean there was somebody who shared in the in the Q&A that they've seen people get saved come to Faith In Jesus through this and praise the Lord I mean we're we're just pragmatists on this stuff that's what we're about is helping people to come to know Jesus and then give their whole Selves to him um and in order for that to happen time and time again we just see that when people are left to themselves they tend to get taken out by the enemy but when they band together with brothers and sisters in the faith

they tend to get stronger and grow in the faith even though they still will face adversity and challenges so just I just want to encourage people to give it a shot um and and keep going and to know that and Both Zach and John Wayne you've got some some expert um folks that can help you with this so lean on them am man I can't I can't say it any better so I'm grateful for you uh Kevin thank you for everything um prayers and blessings upon your ministry and your continued work it's uh I I

joke about how many of these day dead gun books that we've bought um but they really are a gift and I think a great tool and resource for the church as is all your Writing and I'm grateful for you and your time today to be with us and I know that all of our folks are are grateful as well so thank you very much Kevin um we'll talk soon okay awesome thanks God bless you all right God bless you