The Two Industries Creating Africa’s Next Generation of Billionaires | Sanmi Lajuwomi

Just like every other parent, my father sent me to UK. I I went to university there and ended [music] up becoming a top business analyst earning £500 every day for over 12 years. Sorry, 500 what? £500 a day. Okay. I was a contractor. Okay. Right. And I was never out of contract. So, business analysis, project management, worked for the likes of Discovery Channel, [music] Daily Mail Group, dealing with billions of pounds of projects. I actually gave up my residence permit for this. Can you imagine waking up and seeing you are no longer taking £500 a

day and you [music] return to Nigeria to a business that was giving you 120,000 naira monthly? I started, you know, attending oil like gas events. I began reading books on oil and gas, watching videos on oil and gas. Then this young guy that his suit was always oversized decided, which is me, that I wanted to own an oil block. We're almost striking a $40 million gas power deal with Vas. Why would you now leave oil and gas and say you want to go and do solar? As a human being, You must always be on the

lookout for that train for the next train. So I came at the tail end of it and the next wave that was coming was solar. I'm happy to give this strategy in solar. Now anyone that wants to do it would cash out, right? Tell us. So right now [music] [music] something that intrigued me about you was Yes. You are a typical case of Japada. Yes. And you you left a very comfy life where people are running to you are running back. It's more like there's a burning building. Yeah. Everyone is running out. Yeah. And then

you are saying no I want to run in. What did you see? What exactly was is the story and how has it been so far? I was born in Lagos in the mainland. Okay. and I saw people that were in poverty. But I was lucky because my father was a hard worker, really pulled himself by his by by his boots and walked out his way to becoming a top person in society. Mhm. Um at the same time though, my father related with a lot of people that did not have anything. Okay. So I was exposed

to lack lack. Okay. And that disparity inspired in Me from young a responsibility to give my skill sets to contributing to society. Now that seed was sewn in me but I did not know then just like every other parent. My father sent me to UK and in UK I was um a top I I went to university there and ended up becoming a top business analyst earning £500 every day for over 12 years. But every time I Sorry, 500 what? 500 pounds a day. Okay. I was a contractor. Okay. Right. And I was never out

of contract. Wow. So, business analysis, project management, work for the likes of Discovery Channel, Bisk Sky, Daily Mail Group, dealing with billions of pounds of projects. But uh what kind of contract were you? I was uh dealing with IT contracts. So, I was working in project teams uh technical business analyst. I used to write user stories. Then I moved into project management, Prince 2 precisely. and then eventually a bit of agile. I got so good I was teaching people for free, extremely good, right? And I was usually the darling of my directors because of how

good I was in my in my in my craft. Over time, I started to see that first of all, the British people had a pride in who they were as British people, right? Secondly, everywhere I went, particularly one story that stuck with me was I went with a a British person to a meeting and they introduced me, he introduced me as Sami and the person that was that who is also Caucasian that he went to meet said, "Where's the name from?" I said, "Nigeria." He said, "Are you sure you're not a 419 person?" Elijah, that

broke my heart. That really broke my heart and I felt why would I be in the UK? This was now in 2012. So, how long were you in the UK? So, I was in the UK for 17 years. While in the UK, uh, what I saw around people and how Nigerians were treated was my biggest motivation. And even beyond that, I got into reading books. I read Martin Luther King's biography, Malcolm X, Mandela, many books. Marco Aurelio's meditations and she read Plato's Republic. Not only that alone, also Plato's apology, one of my best books. And

these books refined my mind and helped me to see that this life now only one. So the thought process that really motivated me was that I could either be living safe in UK any money or I could go back to my country to contribute to it economically knowing that I have done my Bit before I'm called to glory. H so it was like a urea moment or should I say a an aha moment or what would you call it in what's the other word? It was it was it was I'll give you so the mental

model that I used till you now is um Joseph Campbell's call call to adventure which is hero's journey. Okay. So Hero's Journey talks about how it's it's a book that Joseph Campbell wrote. Uh it's called a hero with a thousand faces. And that book is for directors. It talks about um the archetype of of the hero. How you are called to adventure. You can refuse the adventure. You can refuse the call. Then you go through trials and tribulations. Then you go into the abyss which I crossed a few months ago. And then you transform and

finally you return with a gift to give the world which is where I am. So it was a call to adventure really. It was a call to adventure. It was it was a life's call to go on a journey a journey a massive journey of the unknown. Bearing in mind that I actually gave up my residence permit for this. Can you imagine waking up and saying you're no longer taking £500 a day and you return to Nigeria to a business that was Giving you 120,000 naira monthly. So I went from Were you married at I

was I was I was married. So my wife luckily she's a supporter of the whole thing right so she's a very purposeful person and she's the owner of conscious family center in Abuja yes so she's always been a visionary and a supporter and she's interesting she was born and b in the UK so she's British and she gave all that up brought my son who's also British back to Nigeria so [snorts] the other motivation very quickly was I saw the rise of China while I was in the UK when I got to the UK in

the early 2000s China was still seen as a backward country. There was still talks of child labor. Within 10 years, China China rose stratospherically. And I remember I heard Ed Milliban, the former prime minister talking on TV saying it's like they might start teaching Mandarin in the UK. So I thought, look, we are going to have another slavery if we Africans don't go back to Africa to grow Africa. So that's those were the thought processes that brought me back. So when you were when you were trying to make this shift and say, okay, I'm going

to come back to Africa. What year was This? Uh this was the first attempt was 2013 when I started looking at the whole thing. Okay. So you came back. Yes. I was coming back every few months. You explored oil and gas. I explored oil and gas. Yes. Which felt like the next Yes. Uh so so run us through that process of returning and discovering. Okay. So bear in mind at this time I was just finishing university and started working right in the late 2000s. Then in the early 2000 in the early from 2011 2012 I

began going for oil and gas events networking events. I remember I heard of this was where the likes of Seplat you know uh the likes of Le Oil they will come to AIM which is a small market in the UK to come and present. So I used to go for this event in London to see them and I caught the bug. I caught the entrepreneurship bug. I saw entrepreneurship from there as a solution. You can create jobs, you know, you pay taxes, you you if you are a very dogged entrepreneur like Dangote, you build roads,

you bring development to communities, so you can transform society with entrepreneurship. So I started, you know, attending all like gas events. I began reading books on oil and gas, Watching videos on oil and gas. Then this young guy that his suit was always oversized decided, which is me, that I wanted to own an oil block. So Elijah actually went very far. I met Prince Atoise several times, right? And I was almost close to uh farming into Dubris Oil in Benin. We met the owner and we're almost striking a $40 million gas power deal with Vegas,

right? Okay. Which it was all meeting people at events and I was always charismatic, you know, knowledgeable, believable. So one faithful day after getting to almost signing, I went to an event. By the way, at this time I was also mining gold in uh Niger Delta, sorry, Niger state, Gurara. Do you know that from here in Abuja, just over 1 hour away in Gura, you are having almost pure 24 karat gold. I took it to Covent Garden to sell. They asked me where did this gold come from, right? So I was into that as well.

So I went to an event in UK one day and roll then she was I think head of energy for Echo Bank, but now she features on Naira metrics and also on Arise TV. She was giving a speech and she talked about how America was coming. Then it was the shale gas, Shale oil was ramping up. America was the largest producer of oil and how America would basically take over the world right in oil. And I also saw the mess in Niger Delta that was also creeping up gradually. So that's why I pivoted to solar

from oil and gas. H yeah. So, but why I mean anyone watching this will say I mean the stains oil and gas I mean $40 million. So why would you now leave oil and gas and say you want to go and do solar? Good question Elijah. So I remember when I was a business analyst there was an Indian colleague of mine that said something. She says si every once in a while a train passes right a train passing. train is passing and as a person whether you are a father, a mother, an entrepreneur, as a

human being you must always be on the lookout for that train for the next train because if you hop on that train you will go to the next destination very quickly but if you miss it you'll be stuck. I came in at the tail end of when the likes of Leo and even many more. There's a guy called Kyote Thomas who founded Bale Oil and Gas. He was a business analyst and he inspired me because he left the UK, came to Nigeria, Started an oil and gas services company. But that ship that ship was sailing

because it it came with the rise of licensing of marginal oil fields. So I came at the tail end of it and the next wave that was coming was solar. But it was not a licensing wave periing wave. I'll tell you why. Because at that point you had social impact investors that were very committed to providing access to solar for undersercept customers undersercept people right which is the of customers of grid if you understand a little bit of pay go you don't need to be an expert and you are articulate and you are professional you

will get access to funding so at that point between 2010 to 2020 those were the glory days of offgrid solar. So you see that's when the likes of M copper Box um Sun King that's when they were bethed. Yeah. So post 2020 after COVID there has been a fall in investment in solar. But do you know what what train is moving now? Logistics and agriculture. So there's a lot of investment in logistics and a agriculture now. So for anyone starting out if you if you are looking for opportunities to get on that ladder and of

your entrepreneurship Right go for agricultural logistics. You'll be able to race. Look out for a train. Yes. Look out for the train. Always be on the lookout for the train. So now let's talk about the train you hopped on. The first train you hopped on after the seeming after you saw that there was no space for you on this train. Yes. Of I mean I mean but there's still some space but just that you have to work. Let me keep in you're actually you're actually right. There's a trend now in oil and gas because the

landscape landscape has shifted, right? And the with the with uh Dangote refinery and the deregulation of the downstream, right? Yeah. Anyone now that wants to be a billionaire, if you have the heart, because it requires hearts, requires hearts. Yeah. Serious heart, you can you can go into oil and gas. And in fact, when I say heart, it's actually not as much heart as before because now there's still a bit of a fair level playing field. If you know how to position your filling stations properly, right? You understand location, location, location, and you understand logistics and

you understand how to manage your numbers, you can become a Distributor for Dangote and cash out. I mean, it's easier said. Yeah. He said it so easy, but anyone that thinks you know that it's not just that. It's not just that. I mean, but let's talk about you. the train you jumped on now. You you jumped on the solar train. Sure. 20 sorry in um 2017. 2017. Yes. I did oil and gas. I was running around chasing the toys, chasing all these people, you know, ran to Energy. I remember when I saw him in his

hotel room, he had one big diamond drink and was ordering a private jet from his country that I don't want to mention. Um and I was like, "Wow, man. These guys have hearts." I the way the room was, I already knew that maybe this is not for me. Do you understand? And not that they were doing anything bad, but these are men. These are real. These are men. So I up I hopped off of that train. I spent 5 years on that train. And in 20 2016, um, by the way, I forgot to mention that

I partnered with the former director of gas for Briish Group. Briish Group. He was also the CEO of Satanta Energy. Right. So I opopped off that train. Then by 2016 I opopped on the solar train. One fateful day I began googling how can I be a Solarreneur in Nigeria. Mhm. I came across BB box first of all online. These guys raise millions of dollars. Right. Okay. Their model they make small boxes and give it to people and they pay over time. Mhm. So that was what motivated me and I could see how that could transform

Nigeria and Africa. So I decided to Google how can I which which value chain can I enter easily. I saw that Naseni was giving concession. They had a solar manufacturing plant which they still have now and they were not using it to full capacity. So they were giving concessions to people that wanted to manufacture. So I came back in 2016 uh in Abuja went to Naseni. I didn't know anybody there. Sat down for the meeting and after the meeting I got a call from somebody in the company. I don't want to mention his name because

you still might still be there. And he told me look guy these people are they might give you the concession but I have a better business model for you. He said let's partner. I'll be a consultant. Why don't you give solar to micro businesses on credit? So that's how we knock solar started. So I took my money and I got funding. My first funding Was from a dentist a very prominent dentist in the UK of Nigerian origin. So what I did was again networking the power of networking and always showing up. I joined a group

called Nigeria UK Golf Association. I didn't know anyone there. I was like yes I was a rubbish golfer. I would go out with them. I was always coming last. So I sat sat next to this man one day and he looked at my teeth and he says look what's your name? I said he said your teeth is bad. Come and see me. I went to see him. I paid him £2,000 to fix my teeth. My friends were laughing that why would you pay so much? Three months later, that man invested $80,000 in my business. So,

I took that money and my money. I blindly sent it through Alibaba to China, got the goods delivered in Nigeria, organized a team before, this was after I had gone back. Mhm. And then they started managing the business gradually gradually from one customer to two customers to tens of thousands of customers. So that so that's the train I caught really that that launched to win group. Wow. So I mean you are solving a major infrastructure problem that the country is currently facing. Yes. Which is the Energy problem. Yes. Were you looking at how big is

this opportunity? How big can it grow? What exactly is it still something that is even still bankable? Like especially because I mean we are in a country where we get next to zero power. Yeah. You know, like the average person is always I mean I feel like someone actually told me that they feel there's a conspiracy against Nigeria's power future. I don't know how true that but like um knowing that we solved that one problem is going to be but you are trying to solve it for micro businesses using solar. Yes. So now first of

all we've actually evolved. We now have a we are we have a direct to consumer model where we are targeting consumers in general that are in the low to middle class uh segment of the society. So we are not just focusing on micro businesses alone. In fact we have moved from list to own because again the train has moved. Why? Because commercial banks are now in the space and you cannot compete with commercial banks in that space. So I'll tell anyone for free because and by the way I'll say for free because what actually you

mentioned that what I said about Dangote is easy about Being a distributor sounds easy but I'll say that it's it's not simple like Jim said it's not easy but it's simple so I'll give I'm happy to give this strategy in solar now anyone that wants to do it would cash out right tell us so right now what is trending is retail okay direct to consumer partnering with banks to finance banks are ready to finance and solar. So if you can set up a structure where you master a value chain of serving customers direct to consumers

very well, you build a good name. Not easy to do, but it's simple. And on top of that, you can now partner with banks to finance your customers. So, and you don't carry the credit risk. You don't have to run around chasing customers and then you can sell your product and focus on being a king in solar distribution. So, it's more like you you're getting the banks to buy it from you. Correct. So, they take the risk. It's it's consumer finance. Okay. Consumer finance. So So that's a trend now. I mean recently I came across

a tweet by um Ellen Musk. Yeah. Ellen Mos actually believes that the only form of power that everyone should focus on is solar. Yes. Yes. Yes. And he he believes that I mean that for God's sake just look how big the sun is. So yeah what do you think about that? So now you know first of all let's let's be practical about our situation. We are a country of they say 200 million people but that was the last time they counted maybe over 300 million now. No I don't think but let's say 220 okay let's

even say 220 but we are growing significantly every year. Mhm. So there's more people coming on this grid that is not even enough which means that the investment that you require to power the entire Nigeria is increasing gradually and it's in the every year and it's in the hundreds of billions of dollars. So the quickest way then to power people is to give Nigerians access to basic energy. Okay, if you really think about it in this room now, what do we have? We have your lights, we have your camera and you have your device in

front of you and the microphones, which means what you just need power for is light and charging. Mhm. You don't really need power for much. Yeah. In fact, most of the power that we use is that we generate is wasted because people don't use it fully, right? So I think that solar distributed Solar where you don't have to rely on transmission lines, you don't have to rely on transformers is the way to go. And if the government can actually support those people that don't have the cap capital because it's capital intensive, um then it will

be a good way to quickly power the entire Nigeria. So you think the solution is distributed power? Yes. So I'll give you an example. We have our cheapest product is a solar fan, right? This fan is 16 in. You can plug your USB device to charge your phone. It has two light bulbs with a solar panel, which means that you can actually leave if you if you have just a small flat or maybe you don't have much use, you have light bulb, fan, and a charging port. Guess how much the fan is, Elijah? How much?

Just put a number on it. You'll be surprised. 20,000. 45,000 NRA. So most people can afford 45,000 NRA or they can get an uncle or a friend to to pay for it. So while ideally it's it's it's nice to have grid electricity, we have to be realistic about our situation, right? I know that the effort and capital it will take including including the bureaucracy resolving the bureaucracy that that's Already been there to unlock it it's going to be strenous. So we need to embrace solar as the the quickest solution to electrify Nigeria and Africa. But

do you think because of I mean one of the things I've had is challenge to solar is the fact that the space it takes. Yes. You know um and recently there's been I mean right now there's been a new law whereby every state has been given the authority to license and generate its own energy. Oh, and then also there's not the limitation of space when it comes to achieving like because also there's I mean to be sincere I don't know if a house like my office for example that requires cooling I have server centers that

can't all be solar you're right it can't all be can't all be solar so how do you um scale or is it that we shouldn't focus on the industrial side we should focus more on the residential and the residential need of of of the market trying to address it with solar and then using another form to address the industrial side. So the interesting thing Elijah is that first of all you'll be surprised what solar can power even though they cannot power everything right. Okay. So banks use Solar as backup they also have server centers right.

Yes. Yes. So if you but you you're also correct that solar requires panels that can be a problem if there's limited roof space. So where we need to head, where we need to get to is the government needs to quickly get to a place where independent power providers right can uh generate can comfortably believing in the policy believing in the stability of the policy deploy solar farms right if you go to the UK or Germany all these countries you see on the country side you see rows of solar panels so you so you are not

relying on grid infrastructure as such alone Right. What the the the the the distribution equipments you need is not as much as what you're doing in gas to power. For example, we are in W zone 5 now. You can set up a solar farm and from directly from that farm you can ch all the electricity to to the houses around. You don't need to run into the grid. So the government needs to encourage us by quickly looking at policies and they have done it before during the previous government. They were they were giving licenses to

companies. I knew one of them from Dubai and they were going to Do a 100 megawatt solar farm in Kaduna but they did not give FX guarantee. The government was not giving FX guarantee. So the companies decided not to go forward amongst other issues. So in a nutshell apart from solar even even gas to power the wave of the future is captive power. Okay. Captive power where independent power providers [clears throat] can actually deploy power systems. Yes. There was before I left the UK there was a company called Octopus Energy. Octopus Energy just came from

nowhere and started competing with British Gas and the likes. Right. What were they doing? So they they supply electricity. Okay. So because [clears throat] the UK makes it so easy to generate, transmit, distribute and transmit. Whereas in Nigeria the transmission is still controlled by the government. Yes. Right. Which is a big problem. So if if we completely deregulate the industry and we provide policy assurance, policy stability assurance, trust me, you'll be surprised how many people will pull out money from their pockets competing to provide independent power to Nigerians. So I mean let's let's talk about

um I mean you went beyond Um what do you call it energy? Yeah. You from the wox solar you also further expanded. Yes. Yes. What has informed your expansion strategy? Good. So, first of all, before I came back, I've always had the desire, the intuition, and the intention to establish three businesses, right? Three large scale businesses. And last year, I got super clear on what I want to really achieve with those businesses, right? So, first of all, there's the social impact aspect, which is contributing economically to Africa. That's my entire ethos. And then secondly, there

is um the desire to build something so big. You know, we need more more ilom mosques, more dangotees in Nigeria. We need more big businesses. We need more big businesses. No. And you'll be surprised not because of creating jobs alone or anything like that. It's because that's the only way we'll be respected outside. Yes. When you think of America, you think of Mop etc. You think of China, you think of Jakma, you think of Deep Seek. When you think of Nigeria, you think of Dangote and others. Right. So that and others need to be at

Dangote's level. We need more people to dear to dear that in The midst of all the mess in the midst of the uncertainty in the midst of all the evidence challenges we need more Nigerians to dare to rise to the top that's the only way we'll be respected so in terms of strategy now my strategy is what you call a conglomerate right first of all I look at industries where I can do a small pilot quickly fail you know and then if it's not scalable I will take my hand out but if it is scalable

then I can then raise external capital that reduces my risk. So agro for example I started the agro the third leg. So the companies are under wino group solar wok lending and wino agro. Winnok lending is a micro finance company providing loans tomemes. Wo agro is focusing on agro trading commodity trading. At the moment what we are doing and very intentionally I was told that why don't you start from exports. I said let's start small. So I went to uh open markets maraba market in Abuja masa masaka market. I looked at the Modi operandi, right?

And then I went to Zarya to look for a supplier and I started trading uh trading farm produce in those markets through agents, right? Do you know that? You'll be surprised. I've never had Any I've had zero um failure so far. How long have you been doing this for? I've been doing this for 4 months. Really? Yes. Okay. So, this is the third leg that I wanted to activate. So now once that is uh got to you've just been buying commodity and selling. Yes. But you'll be surprised that you'll be you can generate billions monthly

just doing that. Tell me. Okay. So one van of tomatoes for example currently now is going for about 1.2 million. You can make up to 40% margin. I had a couple of vans of yam delivered this morning in masaca market from Niger state. Right. I'll tell you openly because I'm a patriotic entrepreneur and I need more businesses and we talk about patriotic entrepreneurship. Yes. And in fact, so you are getting up to 40% margin if you're getting it from the right source. 1.2 million invested in in tomatoes yam the yam was 1.56 million okay per

van and you are getting up to 40% margin on it tomato on the yam now the tomatoes you you can get up to that but tomatoes is dicey. Yeah. So tomatoes now the way it works is that they call it the people they call it guar which is lock. You can actually buy a van of tomatoes at let's say 20,000 naira per basket. By the time you get to the market the price has crashed to 15,000. But I solved it recently. So again let's give let's give free knowledge. Right? So this is what happens. the

agro system, the agro industry in Nigeria, in the informal market, just like in the financial market, one money point solved, right? OP and the likes. In the aggro market, it is completely unstructured and there's no data. So they assume everything is just by chance and it is run by mostly informal people for a lack of a better word. So if you look at tomatoes now, tomato is a very good commodity to trade, but because there is no storage, you just bring it with the van, right? and then you have to sell quickly. So there's desperation

in sales. However, if you have a market, let's say Maraba market, right? There can be scarcity today and when there's scarcity within a few weeks, everybody has caught win at the scarcity. So you have people from all over Nigeria bringing tomatoes to Marabas and then what happens? The price crashes. So the secret to trading perishables, which is the best out of all of them, is in being able to catch the price rise At the right time. and exit before price starts falling again and wait again because price will still rise when everybody leaves the market.

So that's what I am doing. It's very enjoyable. So there's a method to the madness. There's a there's a serious method that you can actually a repeatable hypothesis right that you can formula rather that you can actually deploy in this space and become very very big trading locally. So in your experience in past four months you've been exper exploring trading. Yes. So what have you found like what are some key insights that you can share with us? So the first key insight I would say is the first one that struck me is that people are

disconnected from from from the government. The macroeconomic and the microeconomic are completely different different. So I'll give you an example on that van of tomatoes right you have somebody that you must sell through called a dali a dali is a an agent their job is to sell. So for each basket whether you make profit or loss they collect 3,000 naira. Now out of that 3,000 naira at the end of the day they will share money with the chairman of the association from the chairman Of association down to the cleaners and the wheelbarrows. So you can

picture that. So in that market in Maraba a lot of people are feeding off the tomatoes that winner group is selling right from the chairman to the dilali to the people that push wheel in the market they all get a share. So they have their own economy that is completely different and separate from what we are doing out there. So that was the first thing that struck me. The second thing that struck me is that there is real business to do in Nigeria. Real business to do in Nigeria. You can do extremely well if you

are not afraid. If you are open to opportunities, if you don't believe the hype or the lies out there, right? Think about it. Our our interiors, our forests are dominated by foreigners. Is that not funny? Whether they are illegal or not, they are foreigners. So there are more people in the bush, more foreigners in the bush, more foreigner, foreign business people in the bush than Nigerians. You see my point? So if there is no opportunity, why are they in the bush? These are people that can choose to be anywhere in the world. So I think

what we need to do as Nigerians Is to recognize that once we can once you can transcend that fear and the fear is real and um rest in peace to the people that were killed in Jaws. It is real but it is not um it is not a constant. It's chances. If you calculate well you can actually manage your risks and do well in Nigeria. So that was that's that's I mean recently I've been hearing a lot of all these talking about tomatoes. I've been hearing a lot of all these um I've seen a lot

of posts online telling us to go into the what do they call that the logistics business whereby you can make a lot of money from cold trucks. Yes. Yes. That's true. So that's the next phase of wok. So I actually I intentionally started we have everything to start from there but we intentionally started from trading trading and trading in open market. So that that's the best way to understand it. But there's also money in cold chain logistics right you can you can take a truck a cold room truck bring tomatoes and deliver to off takers

and they will pay you. I went to see the head of um agro for a bank right and he told me that a commercial bank in Nigeria Stelling Bank let me let me just put that There's nothing to hide there so Stelling Bank and he was telling me that he knows somebody that um was looking to buy chickens she's a ketra for weeks she couldn't get the quantity of chickens she wanted in Abuja nobody could supply her that's the gap that you have I have a friend um that does this um processing chicken he said

that They are always out of stock. So the demand is massive. And the interesting thing is you hear ginger, you hear turmeric, you hear tomatoes, you hear yam. It doesn't matter. Just plug into any value chain. They are all good. They all have their pros and cons. Master the game. And then with patience you will excel. Yes. So let's talk about lending. You now also went into the finance space. Yes. What exactly? Because for right now it's like you are just an octopus like octopus energy. Yes. You're doing agro, you're doing energy and you're also

doing finance. Tell us about that. So there's a method to the madness yet again. Right. So these are three critical areas of the economy which is access to energy, access to nutrition, food, affordable food and access to finance. Right? So the whole thinking behind this is in fact Understanding that there's a massive credit gap in Nigeria. Do you know that only 4% of SMMES have access to formal credits? Really? Yes. In Nigeria. You can Google it and fact check me. Only 4% ofmemes have access to formal credits in Nigeria. Right. Nigerian number of MSMES in

Nigeria is over 40 million MSMES. Okay. Usually so they don't have access to cheap affordable credit. If credit was easily accessible, you will not see people going to borrow money at 10% monthly. Yeah. So our aim is to democratize credit is to build a top five creditled micro finance bank in Africa. That was the first motivation. The second motivation is that there is no micro finance bank that is at the scale of the likes of Baba. If you don't know BABA, Micro Finance Bank, BAB micro finance bank is a French owned bank. Last I checked

their data 2024, they disbossed over $1 billion in Nigeria. In Africa, across Africa. Yes, I know them. I know them that that pink but Babab is French then she go right they have a branch in Nigeria they have a branch in they have a couple of branches let's go as well is a very big micro finance banks so I so we desire we we not lending we desire To become a top five creditled bank so that we can also say that Africans Nigerians are playing in that space at that scale so that's the main motivation

h [clears throat] so basically what have you found in terms of lending what [snorts] what has he taught you about okay another secret I'll share because I like I the fact that you're giving us you're giving us T. Yes. So what I've learned I was I'll mention two two main things right everything they say about lending is purely not true. The first thing they say customers don't pay. Customers pay and customers pay very well. Right? The second thing that is said about lending um is is is that there is no data, right? No credit history,

you know. Yes. But there's actually Nigeria has transcended that that that credit history. But so for the customers don't pay part usually the reason why companies fail, right? Micro finance banks fail in Nigeria or micro or lending companies is because of internal management, poor management. Actually, that's the number one reason. When you have the CEO dipping hands into the account, you are there's no there's no culture, there's no good culture, there's no Corporate governance, it's already doomed to fail. But if there's good corporate governance, right, it will succeed. Now, the second thing I want to

share is that it also requires patience. If you're looking to build a a a sustainable micro finance institution, you ought to patiently build your customer base. Your first set of customers, you might have a high power, but as time goes on, you have a repeat, you have customers coming repeatedly that are good. So, you build a healthy base of customers over time, right? Um, but let me share the key insight that I'm also using. Our moot for winch lending is that we realize that to do lending well right you need three things. First of all

if I want to give Elijah money I need to know this is Elijah right I can do that with apps now I can do that with APIs I can pull out your n pull out your BBN and verify that it's you. Yeah. Then second thing is I need to know whether Elijah can pay me back. I can pull your bank statement now directly from the bank and do my analysis that you have good cash flow. The third one is if if Elijah runs away, where can I find him? Address verification. So that's where there's a

gap in Nigeria. Unlike in the UK where you can use um uh 192.com or some other website to locate where the person is because there's an incentive in the UK. The incentive is that if you're living in a house, you must register with the with the council voters registry. So your name is on the house. If you leave the house, let's say you're renting it. Your landlord would or maybe somebody else buys it. The first thing they will do to avoid the house being used for fraud is to remove you. Do you know that your

credit score would drop by about 700 points? So you have 1,000 points. You might have excellent credit score. If you if your if your name is not on the voter's register, it will drop to about 300. So you won't have access to credit. But such a setup is not in Nigeria for people to give their address. So the best thing to do is to use offline strategies to verify address. So that's our genius and that's also money points genius too because I mean obviously they have merchants on ground, men on ground, correct actually in this

market and are seeing what's going on. Correct. No. Correct. But let's even look at the fact that there was something I I came across you saying where you Talk about you've created an FX I think let me read it out. Yeah. You said you've been able to create an FX hedging strategy that you see removes currency risk. Yes. And now something interesting about you I found is the fact that you've inocul or well correct me if I'm wrong you've been able to raise institutional funding. Yes. Millions of dollars. Millions of dollars um from Acumen are

top companies. How have you been able to position yourself? Yes. What does it take? Because I mean anyone watching this will say uh maybe you've been privileged, you've um how did you get this money, you know? So let's break it down a bit more. Yeah. Accessing capital. Let's talk about capital. Well, let me just tell you that for those that are thinking I'm privileged, please all this English where they speak. I'm not the smartest guy out there. I repeated SS1 twice for example in King's College. All right, I'm serious. So what led me to this

though is intentionality. Yeah. If you want to raise money, first of all, you need to know what you want to raise money for. Okay? Right? And then you target the right investors. If you're clear, you also need to know what Kind of money you need to raise. So let's say for example, you're in um the agro space, you want to do cold chain logistics, distributing tomatoes to um offtakers like hotels, restaurants. So in that business now, the main thing you need money for is your vehicles, right? That's it. That's your main cost, your carex. Yes.

So if you have that vehicle, you can now look at it that okay that vehicle you can buy it with equity and then use it as collateral to get loan for your inventory which is the tomatoes. So that's just one way to look at it. You must always be intentional about your balance sheet. How do you fund your capex? How do you fund your opex and what should you what sort of liability or equity should you be looking at? So for us I mean acumen at all on is a match made in heaven because our

aim is to provide access to solar for low income earners and when we when we approached them it was it was they were able to How much how much have you raised so far? I can't say but it's billions of dollars. I don't want to put that data out there but it's very very very serious uh millions of dollars. Yes. Over the last four years in terms of depth or equity equity and Depth. So all on on um Acumen did equity and by the way they are great guys to work with um and uh we've

had a good relationship with them so far. So how did they discover you? How did you discover them? What how what did you tell them that again I don't know if you've read the alchemist I've seen Paulo please I recommend that book to everyone amazing book Paulo so my journey is almost like an alchemist right where I had a dream and then I woke up and I just started on that journey. So I went to an event yet again. So I think that if any if you don't take anything away from what I'm saying today

and go to events go to events don't even even if you don't have any idea just go to events and meet people go to events and you don't have to show up like ready just show up however you are right so I went to an event and I met one consultant and this consultant was interested in you know he said he could get me investors so he recommended me to one investor that investor provided credit millions of dollars And then from there that investor down introduced me to Acumen. So the investor invested in you. Yes.

For millions of dollars. Yes. Then he gave me depth over time. Over time. Yes. You paid back the depth. Yes. Then he now introduced. Yes. But I saw she want to talk about the shi I saw on FX. I edged but I was still exposed to shi right. It was she I think everybody What year was this? Cuz everybody was 2023. Yeah. I mean everybody went 2023. was serious she right the market was because we've been talking about the good part but I can also talk about the the the the sh because you don't become

a scholar if you haven't gone through fire and I said there was something I coined I said um um losses lead to lessons losses lead to lessons yeah risk you manage your risk well you you may avoid a risk but you don't learn anything by avoiding a risk yeah so your risk tolerance as an entrepreneur has to be a bit lower I lower than the average person. So having gone through shi in Nigeria, I have so many wisdoms to share. But um coming back to your question, so Acumen was then introduced to me by this

lender that is a US lender and that's how we we started the relationship and then I I was followed by the the portfolio manager then followed me to day market and they saw our customers and they were impressed that this guy Is actually doing real work. So if I can if I can dissect it into nuggets because I think that's that's the main point of the question. If someone is looking to raise capital, the first thing you have to do is have clarity about what you need money for. Understand your business strategy etc. As a

CEO, as a founder, be knowledgeable, no marketing, no finance, no accounting, understand the lingua, you should be able to talk to HR and understand it, etc. So you become more believable. And then the third thing I would say is that you must ensure that you are transparent and trustworthy. Now I was also advised that right now social impact in industry is in what I call social impact 2.0. Social impact investment was coined by social impact was coined by um Rocky Feller Foundation around 2007 when you know them and some other organizations said ah what can

we do better than charity? We are giving money in charity but we are not seeing much results. So they formed social impact impact and the whole aim of social impact is to look for socially conscious entrepreneurs that want to use money as a way to transform society and then they give you money and They expect that you at least return the capital even if you don't return interest but over the last few years there have been how do I put this without there have been lack of liquidity in the industry okay exits are not easy

to are far and few between so the new phase now opposed Postcoid post naira crunch is a phase whereby investors are a lot more um are a lot more they scrutinize more they scrutinize more so you must know your numbers you you mustn't only prove impact but you must prove that this thing will be profitable and so I recently I started hearing things like days inventory outstanding day sales outstanding we never talked about that before we we're not we're never talking about net profit margin we're just talking about number of connections So for anybody going

into business now, if you're in business and you're looking to raise money, know that you must bring a bit of venture capitalist mindset now to social impact uh space. M that's quite interesting. So now when you raised money, you raised a lot of this money in USD. Yes. And then you come to a Nigerian environment. Yes. Which feels good. I mean Mr. I was having a conversation With someone and he said Yeah. Um right now that a lot of venture capitalists don't know that the person you are giving a seed investment you just gave him

his exit. Yeah. [laughter] So your seed is his exit. I I never stopped I never stopped laughing because you gave a young entrepreneur $3 million. Yes. Ah yes. He first of all comes he's not he has not left the business. Yeah. Ah but you've given him his exit. Yes. Yes. All he wants a comfortable life. Yes. And he wants to be able to just keep that business running. Yeah. Even if that business is making $4 million a year, he's happy. But you gave me with the intention that you turn that $3 million to $1 billion.

To $1 billion in 10 years. In 10 years. Yes. So that you have an explosive exit or even $100 million. Yes. But the guy is not thinking that. In fact, not even explosive exit. So that it we are building to last. Exactly. Yes. We are building to I would leave us long after we are gone. So how do you how do you manage raising in FX while knowing you have to give FX returns so while playing in the local market? Yes. So the whole foreign investment race started from oil And gas when investors entrepreneurs realized

that they could get singledigit loans Yeah. from the west. And if you recall the the earlier conversation about marginal oil field everything started falling apart starting from around 2015 that's when we started seeing signs of Naira is going to have issues. Um for us at that time depending on the industry you're in but for us at that time only social impact investors understood our strategy and they were our our um the investors that we are the best that best match for us. Right. M so at the time we actually edged I mention I developed a

strategy that eventually my a few of my friends became what a lot of people were doing. So maybe a few minds you know they say great minds think alike. At that time I called I called Sterling Bank and I said look I have dollars can I use it to collect naira. That was the first time my the regional office sting bank had done that. So the first customers that they did it with and eventually it became a big thing. Um people were doing backtoback loan using they've stopped that now. But guess what the problem with

that is that first of all the Bank would not give you 100% value at all. Yeah. Right. like for like. So you still have 30% that is exposed plus the interest. So you can end up bringing um $2 million at 360 naira and by 2024 you are paying back at5. So you are paying back 3x meanwhile your profit is what 30% even if you're lucky because 30% is out to come by Nigeria at the end of the day you can have high gross margin by the time your operating cost eats into it. Yeah. So you

are now you now in a mess that in in a situation where you have creditors. I was in that situation. You have a creditor calling you. I'll give you a particular day. I was in my office Elijah and I was sat like this and and and just announced that they are going to stop uh they going to stop the circulation of Naira and they going to they are releasing new Naira. But we all knew that Nigeria was not ready. Within a few weeks, prices spiked. This was just after COVID, right? Yes. Prices spiked. Okay. And

after prices spiked, dollar n was already starting to have issues. That's when it was almost 1,000. Yeah. I was having issues paying because for 7 months there was not there was no business, But I kept everyone on on on payroll. You can imagine I was in the office. I just got off the phone with my creditor. They said SL when are you going to pay us and as I dropped the phone my head of HR came into the office and said to me that she just had a meeting with the staff and they all asking

for increase in salary because of transport. So that's a kind of heaviness that is on the head of the person wearing the crown. I did not know whether to cry or laugh. [laughter] I did not know whether to cry or laugh. Right? You know when they say there's a peace that transcends all things, all understanding. That peace doesn't just come by prayer alone. You have to go through she Yes. You have to realize that problems are just problems. You're just Yes. They are just problems. They are not It doesn't define you. You can solve it.

Do you have more problems than Tinu right now? No. So I So those moments formed me. So the whole FX situation actually formed my character as an investor, as as an entrepreneur, right? And but thank God for my for my impact investors. They were very helpful during that period. And I and I must say this Elijah and I think this is if again if I don't see anything else I want to quickly show in clear full pictures why in Nigeria entrepreneurs any entrepreneur that was born preco precoid right and is still alive now should be

given a national honor. You should Yes. You should be a co. Even if you are selling Aara. [laughter] Yeah. Even if you are selling Aara, you don't have to be a Tony Lumu or a Dang. You should be You should be giving a C or M because you're a legend. [laughter] Why? You can imagine. I agree. I agree. Because that was [laughter] Yeah. You can imagine. You can imagine. You can imagine you're a business person. Yeah. You've gone and talk big talk to investors. you raise money covid hits the government says that you are going

to sit at home for some months what's the palative indomi indomi cannot pay back pay back millions of dollars whereas in UK I remember some of my friends that are still there and doing business they were getting £50,000 then narra crunch hit then FX depreciation hit back to back to back and you say we shouldn't get co or M so any Nigerian that is a business person that is alive today even if you are making losses desire Still going. You are a legend. You should give yourself a pat on the back. I mean, you often

talk about talking about Nigeria, you often talk about patriotic entrepreneurship. Yes. And I think something that always that's something I I observe sticks out for you. Yes. Although now I'm seeing you talking about SL for Africa. Yes. Uh B tell us a bit about that like what do you think why why do you talk about patriotic um entrepreneurship and um especially in a especially right now when it seems like a lot of people are uh kind of it's not I don't think people are trying to be intentional about it but it's like they're kind of

giving up you know it's like almost like what are you seeing Okay, that others are not. Okay, so the first thing is patriotic. Let's define patriotic entrepreneurship. Patriotic entrepreneurship is a mindset whereby an entrepreneur understands that beyond making money for themselves. Entrepreneurship is a service to society is a service to mankind. Right? It is a mindset whereby you ask yourself like John F. Kennedy said, ask not what your country is doing for you. ask what you are doing for your country. And as Entrepreneurs, we need more people to not focus on only making money, but

focusing on ensuring that they are thinking about the well-being of their society. Now, the sum total of this mindset and this approach will lead to nothing but greatness eventually. Right? I'll give you an example. Any country that you have seen now today at some point had a group of people that decided that they wanted to make the country great irrespective of their society right what's going on around them in the US for for example during the enlightenment age you had the likes of John D Rockefeller Andrew Kani Onasis I can go on and on the

Vanderbilt these guys were not just there to make money for themselves because if they were there to make money for themselves they would not take the steps they were taking you're talking about a society where people settled fight with gun dwells. It's about who can you shoot faster than me and nothing will happen. I go shoot you and that's the end of it. So it was in fact they called oil prospecting then wild cing. Yeah. Because there was no there was no method to doing it. But you have a John D Rockefeller that built a

standard oil that became Such a giant that today we still have Pexle, we have Chevron. These are the children Exommobile. They call them the seven sisters. The children of Standard Oil still dominating the world. So these were nation builders and in fact those guys did not wait for the government. It was when they even got too big that the government came in with the antitrust act that they said boy you don't too big too big standard or come let's break you up you are too big so the government they were not relying on government policies

they were actually just creating ways without the government saying we want to make America great. So I take you back to China as well. China the Chinese government realized that in order for China to prosper there has to be productivity through entrepreneurship. So what did they do? They created a model whereby the government backed entrepreneurs and funded them so that they can they can help the society. So that's what we need to do. Again look at us today when you look at the likes of Elon Musk you look at what's happening with um the conversation

between anthropic and open air and the government right? So in a nutshell as entrepreneurs we must Know that our duty is we are people that take resources from society where there where it is being used where where is is yielding low results low returns and put it in a place that is yielding high returns. If we can all think like that, one society will be for the better and two will make a lot of money because a patriotic entrepreneur let's say gold mining for example wouldn't just think of trading gold. They will say how will

I build a gold refinery in Nigeria that would ensure that Nigeria has the maximum value. That kind of person will be rich. So Dangut's vision if you look at Dangote's website their vision is actually Africa's self-sufficiency. Dangote is a model patriotic entrepreneur. If you hear Dangote speak, he always talks about how he wants Africa to be self-sufficient in oil or any other thing he's doing. You can imagine if we have 10,000 people like Dangote in Africa, what the transformation will be. So that is the the patriotic entrepreneurship in the minds in a nutshell. So but

how do you keep this dream alive when you see uh what what's what lens are you seeing through? Okay. So, I'm seeing I see things through the lens Of the fact of mortality. You know, I mentioned I read Marcos Aurelio's meditations. Stoicism having a stoic mindset would encourage you to be more purposeful. Right. So, I also see it through the lens of the fact that through the lens of race. I'm a black person. Through the lens of heritage. I am born in Nigeria. And I see it through the lens that you must commit your efforts,

your energy, your resources towards the development of your own people respect irrespective of how difficult the situation is. Jim said something. Jim said that there was a man Marriage who was his mentor. He died in his 40s and people were saying I was so young but he said Marri lived a lifetime in 40 years. He said that some people say some people will say that but if I if I'm safe and secure I could live I could live to 100 said what kind of life is that safe and secure you live to 100 and you

die so what is the point if you look at every person that we look up to from um Martin Luther King Jr. Malcolm X, uh, I can go on and on. Jesus Christ, they all died young. Most of them died young, right? But Mali died in his 30s. Okay. So, what kind of life are we trying to live safe And secure being new slaves? I don't have anything anything against Jackpine. If you want to jackpa, all good. But we must have a mindset of builders. We cannot be in 2026 and still thinking like slaves. It

doesn't make sense. How do you mean? We think like slaves because we're addicted to foreign money. Anything foreign. We believe that anything foreign is better than our own. You ask, you go to the market, they tell you that this one is new. This one is Belgium. Belgium is better. Right. If they tell you that something is made in Abba, you think it it conotes inferiority. Yeah. Made in Abba, inferiority. If they tell you it is made in Germany, you believe that it is the best. So therefore, somebody that has the desire to create good quality

in Abba is already at a disadvantage because his people won't buy from him. They rather buy from a Chinese person or a white person. Right? We celebrate, we think about it. We celebrate if somebody japas. We say even churches if you want to go that way are s are are praying for people to get visa and japa. Do you understand? And people come to give testimony in churches that they have Jpad. You can can we not desire that in America people should be white people should be giving or foreigners should be giving testimony that they

Japan into Nigeria? Why can't it be the other way around? Why can we not desire a country where you go to university and half of it is foreigners? So for us we have to wake up our children. Our parents even tried more than us. At least our parents brought us democracy. Our parents fought for democracy. Right? What have we brought? What have we brought in our generation? We are running away. Some people were slaves. They got freed. They fought for against slavery. Then you had a generation of independence, right? That fought against colonialism. And then

you had a generation that fought for democracy. So our generation is supposed to be a generation of builders. So that's the mindset of patriotistic entrepreneurship. It does is not a mindset that seeks comfort. is a mindset that understands that even with discomfort I will still be a builder in my country. Let's talk about let's talk about building. Yes. What does it take to build? Okay. I mean you've not just built one company, You've built a group of companies. Yes. What is the mindset it takes to build? I mean everyone wears the name CEO. Yes. You

know everywhere right now. But what does it really take to build? The first thing it takes is independent thinking. You must be able to think, have a mind of your own. For example, when I was coming back to Nigeria, my family members said I was crazy. My friends said I was cuckoo. But they're all proud of me today of the man I have become. So, you must be able to think independently and make up your own mind. That's very important. As a CEO, you would have people that are trying to manipulate. I mean, 48 laws

of power. We are human beings, right? So, human beings will always do what human beings do. So if you are not able to look back, reflect and think and make a mind of your own, don't bother going. For me personally, the second thing is understanding your motivations and your traumas. Understanding yourself, doing a self analysis almost cowong level, fraudant type of analysis on yourself to understand your strengths and weaknesses. So massive self-awareness is very very important. The third one is you must have Crazy work ethic. Crazy work ethic. I thought I was working at I'll

give you an example. I have a friend now very hardworking guy right I was in and this guy for is in his early 40s in in Niger in Abuja here one of the properties is selling at the moment in gap is 2 billion naira just one of his properties and I called him 2 weeks ago on Friday in the evening I said guy you're not coming away he said I'm in the office I realized that this guy is usually in the office till 8:00 p.m. 9:00 p.m. and he's more successful than me. So for what

I realized is intelligence is not enough. In fact, intelligence can be a disadvantage because you'll be doing over analysis. What you l what a lot of people lack in natural ability, they make up for in work ethics. What you what they lack what you lack in natural skills, you can make up for in work ethics. So work ethics is very very important. Then I would say the the final point which is very very important is as an entrepreneur and a CEO you must be a jack of all trades in your company right they say um

you know the saying jack of all trades master of none but that's not all that's not the true saying yeah jack of all trades Master of all master of none but still better than master of one so you must know every department so that you can interact with them I wish we could have another session because I can I wish I could go into the transitioning from founder to CEO. I can touch on it quickly. Yeah. I mean, so recently I made a transition. I intentionally made a transition from founder to CEO. What does it

take? So what it takes is understanding that you can and what's the difference really the difference is that a founder creates things from scratch. A founder is hands-on. A founder is part of the team brainstorming to solve every problem. A founder is directly in charge of every decision. A CEO though is just a leader of their direct reports. Okay, a CEO is appointed and we can even go to a CEO and an MD. So MD, CEO, if you if you're a CEO MD, as a CEO, your job is to define the vision, define the strategy

with your team, not even the the the the departmental strategies, just the business strategy as a whole. Interact with your board, right? Ensure that there's good corporate governance in place. Ensure that there are systems in place and the business can run as A system. You make it an institution. Once you have done that, you step back and you allow your team to run day-to-day. But a founder will want to be on every decision. A founder will be a CEO will see something happening. Maybe a junior staff is doing is is attending to an issue, right?

The CEO will hold would control themselves not to correct that junior staff. they will not it down and go and meet the leader the director of that department and correct it. But a founder because they are still very emotionally connected to the company we will call that junior staff and say oh boy this is not how we do it here baba then you have a problem with organizational structure and communication lines. So it's so difficult because naturally as an entrepreneur you are a founder. You are a founder. You you have an emotional attachment to the

vision. You want to control orchestrate every part of the music right of the six symphony orchestra. But as a CEO you just design you design the event. You you appoint the right conductor for the orchestra. You let the conductor appoint the musicians and then you watch it play out and check your KPIs to ensure that It's heading in the right direction. So that's the difference. So the problem that we have as Nigerians mostly as Africans is that we want to we want people to know that we are the ones we are the man the ego

we want to be seen as the main guy in everything. But if you understand that a CEO, chief executive officer is at the end of it. It's actually a job. A managing director is just someone appointed by the board to run the company then then to lead management then your ego will step aside and you allow your people to flourish and also make decisions form their own policies and show the value that they can bring. So do you what what does it take to now transit that like what mindset shifts does it take for it

to move from that level? Is it just acknowledging this or something you did? So what I did was first of all I recognized that I was a bottleneck to the company because I'll make a decision today and they say the bottleneck is always at the top. Yes. Yes. I'll make a decision today and you know just like the way God created the world you created this and then you look at it said it was good. That's how I was making decisions not consulting My people. So I could speak to a staff now they give me

an idea speak to someone else they give me an idea and I changed my mind within 5 minutes meanwhile execution had already started because I was a founder but as a CEO there's a process now for example we on boarded a new group a new CFO and this person advised that we shouldn't use Zoho books we should use Quickbooks I was already making that decision that yeah yeah yeah it's true let's change it to QuickBooks but my team called me and said When did this where was this decision made and I realized that okay you

know what because this person is new I'm still trying to carry [snorts] them along I was getting involved in operations just literally today and I was causing communication gap they are supposed to be speaking directly to the CEOs of the subsidiaries right so that they look at that decision properly how it impacts every department before they make a decision on which software to go for so as a business grows bigger you start to have more moving parts And in systems thinking, you make a decision in one place, but you don't consider the effect in another

place. You can break the Entire system. So the way I made that transition was first of all knowing that I'm the bottleneck. And then I started watching videos, reading books. There's a great book called execution, right? Um to the founder of money also talked about it. He talks about how you take ideas from strategy. Who was who wrote to I can't remember the name was C former CEO of Unwell. He was also an executive at G. Yes. Before he became the CEO of Honeywell. Fantastic book. Execution. The Nigerian book. No, it's an American book. American

book. Yes. So he talks about how you manage people, you think in systems. He said he gave an example like for example he said um the when he came back to a particular company that he left and that company they were after he left the company they were declining in performance and he looked at changes that needed to be made and one of the changes was this lady that was a faithful person in the company best performance all of that right but they were deploying new accounting systems it was also accounting related and he asked

how long would it to train this lady to learn this new software. They said it will take like 3 years. They were like, "It's too long. Let's just replace her and get somebody else." That's a CEO thinking, somebody that's already vested in it because it because competition will leave them behind if they were making emotional decisions. But a founder is like boy scout. A founder will say, "Ah, this person that started with me, I will make a sentimental decision to keep somebody that eventually it it will crash the entire system." So I started to reflect

on that and the interesting thing is as a leader naturally you want to be liked because to influence you have to be liked. Yeah. I mean every human. Yes. Every human being wants to be liked. So being able to rise above that natural emotion that natural inclination of a founder of an entrepreneur of always wanting to try new things. Do you know that I I I read somewhere recently I didn't know if Mandress in my head was saying this. He said that he has found out that the most effective global founders that we all celebrate

are all on the spectrum. Yes. Now, one of the things Ellen Mosque, you know, most of them, you find out that they're on the spectrum. Even um what's his name? Um virgin. Yeah. They all on a spectrum. And he now said something. He said one of the things the advantage of being on a spectrum does to them. Find out Spotify that said this. So one of the things about spectrum does to them is that they do not suffer that human desire to be liked. So they are able to make decisions clearer and this so it's

quite interesting that yes that that you example. I mean there's an email that I recommend everyone to read where Elon Musk in 2021 sent to all his staff telling them to come back to the office to the office that no more work from home. I recommend that email. You'll see how the mind of a of a highly evolved CEO works. from that email. So that transition okay owner owner manage businesses in Nigeria there's no succession plan the owner dies and the business dies because we don't have CEOs. So for patriotic entrepreneurship one of the core

fundamental aspects of it one of the key things in it is the philosophy is building to last and building to last requires building systems requires implementing strong corporate governance. As a founder, you can't just dip money and into The account. Your salary is your salary. If you need more money, drive the company to perform so that you can collect dividend. Oh, bonuses or bonuses. So, so that's that's the difference in a nutshell. Actually, I like that very much. I I told someone I said one of the things that I like about incentives is that if

you tie to performance, you just just phenomenal how performance increase. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's just phenomenal. But then I mean what has been your greatest pain along this journey? Do you think there's been any regrets? There's zero regrets so far, but there's always pain every day. Okay. And pain is part of the journey and there will always be pain and I don't think I'm as pain as Dangote right now. [laughter] So are you are you deflecting? No. No. I'm just saying because if we really think about it, right, there's always pain in everything we do.

There's even pain in not doing fairly. Yes, there's pain in having a burden of purpose on your heart and not following it. You go to the other. So, I've made pain, my friend. And I go back to hero's journey is on the journey. On hero's journey is a cycle is a cycle, Right? Yeah. You start from being a hero. You start from being in the known world. The known world. The known world is the ordinary world. And then you cross a threshold. That threshold in this archetype is actually a threshold of being able to take

pain. That's what makes you a hero. So if you can take pain and you are you are resilient and you are detached not insensitive but detached from your problems or your challenges then you become a hero. You have transcended you have reached zen level. So for me pain is I expect pain. I welcome pain because every pain I get I grow. What what what has it taught you? It has taught me that a lot of what we fear when it happens and you wake up the following day you realize that you were just imagining your

fears. Has the journey it's what Senica called the the is what Senica the philosopher calls the groundless fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of the unknown. He says some of us fear more than we ought to. M some of us fear before we ought to and some of us fear when we ought not able to fear at all. [laughter] Yeah. Letters of I mean but do you what has in your journey how has failure been reimagined In your eyes? Have you learned anything? So, so that's the first time someone has asked me this question and

I can tell you that what what the first thought that comes to my mind is that there's nothing like failure. There's only trials honestly. So if you failure is like cooking rice you want to cook white rice and then it burns. If you're hungry will you stop cooking? No. You may say ah man I neglected I neglected uh the cooking or I was watching TV while I was cooking and the rice buns. Let me cook another one. That's how failure is. You learn from it. It helps you grow. You pick the lessons, you reflect on

it, and you grow. You're only a failure if you keep making the same mistakes over and over again. Then you're a failure, right? But as long as you learn from it, it becomes a lesson. One of the key phrases I I coined just this morning is um losses lead to lessons. Losses lead to lessons. Losses lead to lessons. Yes. So if you if you lose and you learn, you haven't lost because that lesson will take you to a greater height because it's a profit from the loss. Yes. Exactly. So I mean as we fix to

close, what is um one book you recommend or two books you Can recommend? You've already recommended a lot of books but I think you recommended Execution. Yes. The Alchemist. The Alchemist and also Marcos Aurelio's Marelation. What I would recommend is that every Nigerian ought to read the biography of all our leaders. Read the entire volume. Um it will help you to understand Nigeria more. Read all of books. Um a great one is my command actually by Obas. Read in biography. Another great one is why why we struck bar one of the guys that carried out

the first school. You'll start to see Nigeria in a different light. So I'll recommend that and then if there's in addition to that so that's many books in one first of all. Yeah. Then in addition to that I can say that one book that has really really touched me is Shoe Dog. I'm rereading it now again. You always talk about Yes. This is my fifth time reading the book. So so so Shoe Dog to me is the book that shows the reality of being an entrepreneur. It doesn't have any fluff. It doesn't paint any glossy

picture. What you see is what you get. Okay. So, what's one business idea that you love but will never actually execute. H one business idea that I love but I will never Execute is um money point business model. Okay. Yes. I I I think that ship has sailed for now. Yeah. Until Nigeria starts growing. Yeah. Well, I mean it's growing a little by little though. Yeah. until until we have like double digit digits uh GDP growth rates growth rate because we don't have um growth in the business space and we have a glutes now there

are too many business people in that space so there are other ways to do it where you can still be a big business but that business model has sailed but I love it so have you ever had a moment where or should I say let let me put it this way if you had to explain to your son and says how would you describe what you Do what I do is adding value to people, making lives better for people in my country and my continent. M through business. Through business. Yes. What do your kids actually

think you do? They know I do business. So I I want you my daughter, she's 6 years old. I I normally have questions. I ask them play scenarios, right? And I asked her that um if somebody's not performing in work, what will you do? Do you know what my six-year-old daughter said? She first of all said you move them To somewhere else and try to give them another thing to do. I said what if they don't perform? She said daddy you send them to their family and you tell them that they should never come back

again. [laughter] Where did she learn that from? From from discussions at the dinner table with my wife. Okay. Yes. So they are very familiar with what I do. They know everything. Yes. So if you fix one thing in Nigeria overnight our mindset. Yes. Our lack of self-belief. That will change that. Yeah, I mean I came across a quote that I love so much. This it says belief comes before ability. And ever since I read that quote, I I I always say this where I say I only wish people understood that belief comes before. But I

think our children, my children's generation, General Alpha, I think they they will do that. I think they will. Yes. They are much more exposed. So I think they will be the generation. But if we don't lay the foundation for them, then we may set our progress back as a continent for for generations. I mean with what is happening now with people scram the there's a new scramble for Africa. Yeah. Yes. For resources. So I mean I think my final question to you will be this. If you could like be both Nigeria and abroad, if you

could have been any other entrepreneur, someone that you see and say, "Kai, I admire this person's journey." Who would it be? H I love being me, first of all. I mean, obviously, um, but there are two people that come to mind, Tony Lumu and Tossi. Um, Tossi especially because it's very quiet. He moves quietly and um he went through a lot of challenges. Yeah. Building what he builds. Building what he built. So definitely Antonio. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Very very interesting to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much. I'm

glad and I like your philosophical mind. Yes. You read a lot and I and I pray [laughter] everyone gets what you shared. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much guys. Um thank you for joining us on this episode. It was an interesting one. And what you could do for us is like, share and subscribe. Ensure that you help us spread this message. Comment in the comment section if there are any feedback or anything you want us to tell um our next guest or the Viewers or if you want even get in touch with the guests. Comment

in the comment section. We'll find a way to get their handles across to you also in the information bar below. Thank you for joining us on this journey. I look forward to catching you in the next episode. This is venture value.