Gay Marriage, Surrogacy, Divorce & Hookup Culture | Katy Faust | EP 527

This is a worldview that does not discriminate between single married gay straight fertile and infertile this is a world where if you're going to put children first all adults must conform to those fundamental rights let's wrestle that out that means that it is going to run up against all of our self-interest at some point I have a friend and he wasn't interested in children but his partner was interested In children and so they had children with surrogacy there's one demographic in this country that's truly in the closet it's kids with same-sex parents who desperately Miss

their mother or father do you know of any data that isn't biased pertaining to that forcing children to sacrifice something so adults can have what they want nobody has a right to a child children have a right to their mother and father and that lands us back into the well is it Better that the child exists or not argument it all comes down to the same thing and the question is what does it mean to be human I'm going to scrap this out with you [Music] hello everybody I had the opportunity today and sit down

and talk to Katie faou Katie is an author she wrote them before us published in 2021 raising conservative kids in a woke City 2023 and pro-child Politics Katie is the founder and president of an organization called them before us and she Advocates on behalf of the intrinsic and inalienable rights of the child her contention which we discussed at length in the YouTube conversation is that family policy educational policy Economic Policy policy surrounding marriage should prior prioritize the natural rights of children uh partly because children have inalienable natural rights Partly because they're voiceless and need to

be defended and partly because it seems self-evident that nothing that is harmful to children can be good for adults or for society and so if you optimize your social policies in relationship to the well-being of children you move a long ways towards optimizing your social policies for the flourishing of everyone and so we fought that through I would Say Katie is not an admirer of surrogacy for example really regardless of the reasons and so I pushed back on that and we hash that through and you can evaluate the consequences of that for yourself we talked

about the fact that not all families are created equal and that love does not define the family you could think of it as a necessary but insufficient precondition for what actually Constitutes a family and Katie comes down pretty hard on both the religious and the biological side arguing that and I think rightly so that there isn't an ideal that can replace long-term committed monogamous child centered heterosexual marriages as primarily as the foundation for successful and joyful stable rearing of children and if you accept the doctrine that what's good for children is good For adults and

for the state than institutions that focus on the well-being the flourishing of children the prioritization of children those institutions have to be foundational and prioritized and that's certainly one of the doctrines of the alliance for responsible citizenship which is this organization Katie sits on its Advisory Board and one of our fundamental principles is that healthy Psyches and healthy societies are made possible by the establishment of healthy child- centered marriages so you'll see how we argued and how we laid out the facts and the opinions Katie is very articulate and well informed and she's a tough

Contender and so if you're interested in how you navigate your marriage and your children and how you might Orient yourself in the world in relationship to your attitudes toward Such things then this is the podcast for you so Katie let's talk about kids start by telling everybody what what you do and why yeah uh my name is Katie fa I'm the founder and president of the children's rights nonprofit them before us the idea is we put them the children before us the adults in all matters of marriage and family so what I do is I

trigger people that is what I do when you say that children's rights to life and right To their mother and father need to come before adult desires really what you're saying is every adult has to accommodate and sacrifice at some point so I tell people give me enough time and I'll piss you off too because this is a worldview that does not discriminate between single married gay straight fertile and infertile this is a world where if you're going to put children first all adults must conform to those fundamental rights and that means that it is

going To run up against all of our self-interest at some point so um I think it's a necessary message I think that it's critical not just to you know National thriving but National surviving but it does come at an individual cost for all of us so let let me ask you about that you know because that idea of self-interest and that self-interest is say at odds with the long-term interest of children is actually predicated on a pretty narrow View of what constitutes self-interest because my suspicions are that in a society that's properly constituted and with

a psyche that's properly integrated the interests of children and adults truly align but they align over the long run and so what sacrificed is so much self-interest as narrow selfish hedonistic gratification in the moment selfin exactly exactly right well that's an important thing important point to make because it's a Big mistake that modern people make to identify their self with their hedonistic whims because that isn't their deepest self their deepest self I would say their most profound self their best self is the self it has to be the self that's aligned with children because well

how could it be be otherwise I mean if we were fundamentally at odds with our children we'd be fundamentally at odds with ourselves and there's no survival and Certainly no happy survival under those conditions so so so let's see if we can figure out what it means to organize ourselves and our societies around the long-term interests of children and make the presumption that that would be best for men and women by far all things considered as well is that reasonable yeah and will say that I think that there's a lot of people that are talking

about um how good marriage is for men for example like thank God there's been A Resurgence of interest in actually this is a vehicle of maturation for men this is a wealth creating Institution for adults this is good for women in terms of aligning with kind of the natural design of their body and I'm so grateful for those voices I want to be the voice that speaks for kids kids don't Lobby they can't hire lawyers they don't submit a mikas brief they don't speak at conferen is they don't submit articles and papers and op EDS

that is What to me is missing is is representing the rights and well-being interest and desires of children and it's because it's so easy to steamroll their interest because they can't speak for themselves they are literally just at the mercy of whatever it is adults decide for them whether it's in the cultural legal or technological space so I obviously I think that what's good for kids ultimately is going to redown to the benefit of all of society I don't think It's an accident that what's good for kids also in the long term ends up being

good for men and women and all of society but to me the missing piece is accurately representing the interest of children in all of these conversations so if I do my job that's what we're going to be talking about today so why did you become obsessed let's say with developing yourself as an advocate for the rights of children and then the the there's a question that's Intelligently allied with that is that what makes you believe what gives you the conviction or the delusion for that matter perhaps that you are entitled to and able to appropriately

speak for the best interests of children right because that's what your Skeptics obviously the people who are skeptical about any Mission such as yours are going to make the case like the postmodernist types Always do that you're just masking your own self-interest with you know putative care for children and pushing a let's say a conservative agenda um using yeah yeah using your love for children as a camouflage so how did you get interested in this first like when did you start to become aware that this was a problem and then I guess you need to

justify your stance and say why tell people who might be skeptical you know why you think that what you're doing should be regarded as Credible oh I think that a lot of people are going to say well are you sure you're not just advancing your own religious agenda or your own self-interest in the name of child protection and I would say you suspect that because you are massively projecting that is literally what progressives have been doing on every single issue for decades is cloaking some of the most child destroying ideologies In The Name Of Child

Protection or even child rights so I understand why that's a suspicion it's because it's a very well-known Playbook especially on the left why am I doing this yeah and also why how are you not falling into that yourself right because well yeah we'll find out you can let me know we'll have a little jbp evaluation at the end of this and you can let me know you can give me the Big Caesar past fail um so I didn't get into this by choice like in the in the world of sort Of Christians and I'm like

I'll just state right up front I am like a Bible thumping Evangelical to the max like you want Evangelical credentials I got you okay so on on that Spectrum I think that most Christians fall into either the truth tellers that are just constantly hammering away at the truth or the grace givers the people that want to keep the peace and and bring together you know all different kinds of people I am a Grace Giver I avoided this for a long Time I don't like to make waves I like to be loved I hate to be

hated it took me a long time to get into the public battle because honestly I was busy with my four kids my husband was the senior pastor of our church for a long time honestly if the world wasn't crazy I would just be reading the Bible with people and shepherding women that is what I would be doing but but the marriage debate is what like flipped the switch for me you know I took your I Took your Big Five personality test and I'm like 100% on extrovert um conscientious kind of agreeable 85% like I will

go along with almost anything but when it is Injustice against children I see red I just can't handle it and that's what happened in the marriage debate what I saw especially when the gay marriage discussion came to my state Washington State I saw this Progressive agenda being pushed on the backs of child Brokenness you know I when they dared to connect marriage with parenting which it wasn't always a lot of times they Advanced to gay marriage on the total separation of the procreative aspect that has always been sort of the foundation for um marriage idea

marriage policy you know social ideas about marriage through Millennia so a lot of gay marriage was disconnecting those two this isn't about kids oh there's a lot of heterosexuals that can't have kids so You know so gays can be married too so but when they did connect it to kids what they said what I heard them saying is kids don't care if they have two moms or two dads but functionally what that means is kids don't care if they have lost their mom or lost their dad that's what you're talking about when you see the

picture of a child with two moms you're looking at a picture of a child who has lost their dad when you're looking at a Child with two dads you are looking at a little girl or a little boy who has lost their mother now sometimes that happens through tragedy we used to experience that kind of especially father loss on a mass scale for example after Wars before modern medicine we used to experience mother loss at the time of birth but thank God due to Modern Warfare and modern technology we are not seeing father and mother

lost to tragedy on a Mass scale like that what we are now seeing is Mother and Father loss intentionally and now due to reproductive Technologies commercially but we're not looking at it as tragic anymore now we're looking at it as a step of progress so my husband and I had been working with kids in a variety of different ways for a couple decades at that point and I will tell you I had not met a kid who lost their mother or father who at minimum was not curious About the identity of that missing man and

woman but very very often it was the Primal wound it was the thing that you could barely touch that you couldn't even get near without them flinching without them crying you know when we were doing the the lockin for the kids in middle school and high school and there's that one kid that wants to stay up at 3:00 a.m. and talk with you in the middle of the gym floor when all the other kids are sleeping you know what They want to talk with you about where is my father why doesn't he love me where

did he go where is my mother why did she leave me why did she divorce my father why did she move across the state it must have been me there must have been something wrong with me and so this idea that you can just casually cut out a child's mother or father and it's going to not affect them at all and that you were going to push some ever widening Progressive goal posts on the backs of fundamental harm to children that was sort of The Tipping Point on the other side of the 85% for me

where I said get behind me Satan now we roll when when when did that happen to you what what years was that that was 2012 2012 when I actually decided to start an anonymous blog because I am a peacekeeper and I'm a chicken and I know what these people will do to you you know they will make you pay so I wasn't out there with my With my name up front I just thought I just want to talk to the world about why marriage is actually about Justice for children and the pain that they experience

when you cut their mother or father out of their life and the harms that go along with that harms to their physical body harm to their emotion their academics their future relationships success in business isn't just about offering an amazing product or service though that's certainly Essential what truly sets thriving companies apart is having powerful Reliable Tools working behind the scenes to streamline every aspect of the selling process these are the systems that turn the complex challenge of reaching customers and processing sales into something that feels effortless and natural that's exactly where Shopify enters the

picture transforming The Way businesses operate in the digital age nobody does selling better than Shopify They're home to the number one checkout on the planet and here's the game changer with shopay they're boosting conversions up to 50% that means fewer abandoned carts and more sales going to your bottom line in today's world your business needs to be everywhere your customers are whether that's scrolling through social media shopping online or walking into a physical store Shopify Powers at all seamlessly connected your business across the web your store Customer feeds and everywhere in between and here's the

truth businesses that sell more sell on Shopify join over 2 million entrepreneurs who have already discovered the power of unified Commerce with shopify's allinone platform upgrade your business to the same checkout we use with Shopify sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com jbp all lowercase head to shopify.com jbp to upgrade you're selling today that's shopify.com jbp [Applause] I went to a talk by um uh University of otwa Janice fiango who was a English professor at the University of Ottawa and who realized who was a progressive and who realized while lecturing that

the things that she was saying were hurting the boys in her class she could see it and it it was really at that moment that she became a serious scholar and she's become I don't know Anyone who's done a better job of taking apart the feminist narrative especially historically than Janice fiango she's she's quite the monster and I saw her at the University of Toronto um she did a series of lectures before she resigned to take care of her husband her ailing husband and uh she was protested madly she was very early person in the

culture war on the academic side and she paid a big price for it and uh the lecture I went to at The University of Toronto was interrupted by half-wit you know cluster B Psychopathology types pull pulling the fire alarms and packing the audience with false tickets and then leaving and and but one of the things that really shocked me during that display and this was before I was in the public eye to any great degree was that the whole audience seemed absolutely convinced that fathers for example weren't necessary right that a single Mother on average

could do just as good a job as a married couple raising a child and I knew that that was false it's false there are some single mothers who do a credible job and there's some married couples who do a dismal job but on average children with two parents do much better and fatherlessness is a complete bloody catastrophe across multi multiple dimensions and it's been a disaster and it's really do you mind if I jump in there because you said parents Who with two kids do better but I want to challenge that say kids with two

parents yeah I well yeah well that's what I'm getting that's what I'm going to get to yeah so please go ahead well then well if this isn't what you were going to get to then please get to what you're going to get to but I will say that there has been some increased courage and boldness from the right and the left to say children need two parents like the data is now so strong That we're not able to reject that anymore the myth of the single mother you know doing just as well that is absolutely

unsubstantiated but I will say that it is not just two parents it's not a two parent home that advantages children it is two married biological parents who Advantage children and that's a really important Point um unfortunately I think because go ahead well let's let's let's wrestle that out because um okay so so um I have a friend Dave ruin so I'll start with Ruben I don't think he'll mind and uh Dave's gay and he's married to his husband who's also Named Dave and Dave Ruben came along with me on my tour and I talked a

lot about kids and he wasn't interested in children but he listened and his partner was interested in children and so they had children with surrogacy and I talked to Dave very forthrightly on a podcast about how insanely difficult that was and Dave wasn't afraid to delve Into the moral quandry let's say that surrounds surrogacy which I would like to talk to about you and uh the te the tremendous expense and he was aware of the fact that well with two fathers you don't have a mother and so his mother and his partner's mother participated and

his sisters and they did everything they could to formulate environment exactly that and but but what was evident at this at Minimum was evident and I I would like to talk to you about this because it's sort of at the core of the matter the pathway they chose is not replicable as a basis for a stable Society it was very very difficult for them to do what they did it cost a tremendous amount of time and money they were insanely committed they had the resources and they had the Family Support to flesh out the missing

pieces maybe right and so maybe well well That's the issue maybe now you know Dave told me that he wasn't particularly interested in contemplating a what did he say he didn't what did he tell me he didn't want to be wandering around Beverly Hills with a little dog in a in a you know purse when he was 60 you know what I mean no I remember the conversation you guys had where he said I kind of feel like I'm at the end of what the matur the maturation that I can achieve without having children in

Essence is how that conversation went and that is true children do mature you in ways that um other relationships and other demands do not but children are not a function of your maturation you should be a function of theirs so I understand first of all let me say Dave Rubin incredibly talented absolute champion of Western values probably one of the most talented interviewers that I know of right now and what he did to those children is 100% unjust Unfortunately he forced the smallest the weakest the most vulnerable to sacrifice for two grown men and even

though they can try to make up for it with freezers full of breast milk nighttime nannies and the mothers in their life they have denied their children not just one mother not just two mothers but I would argue all three mothers all three rules that a mother provides number one is the genetic mother who provides 50% of the child's biological identity and that is A critical piece of identity consolation consolidation and formation it is very hard for kids to answer the question who am I if they cannot answer the question who's am I and unfortunately

Dave and David have severed their children from 50% of the answer to that question so there's number one mother that they've cut them off of number two the birth mother this is not only the most critical but the only relationship that children have for the first N9 and a Half months of their life and the day that the child is born is the day when they are supposed to see the mother they already love for the first time not the last why is it that we put children newborns on the chest of their mothers it

is not so they can form a bond it is because children have an existing bond with that woman it is her body her smell her voice that sues the baby she is the only thing that that child knows we have measured and it is her presence that Decreases baby's cortisol levels especially in the first couple days and weeks pres spe okay yeah go ahead random moms her presence specifically random people even the child's father do not decrease cortisol levels and increase oxytocin levels in children the way that the child's own birth mother does so that's

mother number two and then mother number three is the social mother the woman that is providing the daily maternal love that satisfies children's Souls and maximizes their development so what surrogacy does is it splices what should be one person mother into three purchasable and optional women the genetic mother who provides provides the egg the birth mother that gestates the child and the social mother that provides all of that female distinct nurturing um that will in essence lead the child to that place of balance thriving and um Independence later on in life and unfortunately Dave and

his Husband David have starved their children of all three of those not because of tragedy intentionally and commercially okay so so I'm going to scrap this out with you and it isn't because I disagree with you you know it's because it's very complicated and okay so I guess the the most logical perhaps and empathetic possibly objection to the points that you made no which doesn't invalidate the points you made by the way and we can discuss them In detail is that well these children that Dave has wouldn't have existed without this set of circumstances and

from what I can observe the boys are very well-loved and and I'm also not claiming for a moment that such Arrangements can't go dreadfully wrong and I'm perfectly aware of cases where that's been the case so I'm not trying to be naive about this but I'm also trying to take into account the fact that well and we can also talk about This so they they seem to have done as good a job of this as it's possible to do now that's not replicable as a pathway for most people I don't think it's replicable replicable as

a pathway for most gay men it's too difficult but in so far as it could be done they did it as well as they could and now they have these two children which who are apparently thriving and who wouldn't have existed had this not occurred and there's something to be said for the Fact of their existence and you could say well they've been deprived of these three dimensions of maternal care or or those have at least been substituted but better to be um deprived across some axes you might say than not to exist at all

and so well I'll throw that at you and I I'm not sure that's exactly fair but it's harsh in the other direction and we might as well all I would rather have you ask me the hard questions because everybody in the audience is Thinking that too do you know how because one of the things we do at them before us is we catalog the stories of children who have lost their mother or father to a variety of different adult interests not due to tragedy but because some adult wanted it that way on some level what

I call desire-based maternal or paternal losses and so one major category of that is children created through reproductive Technologies sperm and egg quote unquote donation which is A misnomer nobody's this isn't a benevolent nonprofit nobody's donating their egg or sperm everybody is buying or selling um or children created through surrogacy and so you can imagine that many of the kids get these kinds of objections where they talk about how they're troubled by the fact that they have dozens or hundreds of half siblings because their father was a Serial sperm donator um or maybe their mother

um donated her eggs to somebody and so then They have questions like who is my mother very normal questions very human child the kind of questions that every human child asks at some point who is my mother who are the people that are responsible for me this is questions that adoptees have overwhelmingly these are questions that children created through sperm and egg donation have unfortunately many of them when they voice their concerns when they voice their loss when they voice their pain What they hear is would you rather be dead so I think that this

is pretty manipulative I think it's a manipulative tactic to say you do not get to ask the questions or feel the kind of loss that every other human child has experienced throughout history um because otherwise you wouldn't exist so I say look other situations where we can be for sure well let me just say we can be grateful for recognize the dignity and the worth of these individual Little Lives Dave And David's two children that they are precious worthy of life and protection and I would actually said that means that we require that we be

critical of the circumstances of their conception the exact same way we would handle a child conceived through rape your life is altogether good but I can be critical of the circumstances of your conception because you are brought about in a way that actually did not respect and protect your fundamental rights as a Human are you ready for a fresh start after the holiday Indulgence make 2025 your healthiest year yet with balanced nature those Christmas cookies and holiday feasts were great but now your body's craving something different that's where balance of nature comes in the perfect

way to reset your health this New Year getting your daily fruits and vegetables has never been easier balance of nature takes fresh produce freeze dries it to preserve nutrients And delivers it in a convenient capsule you can take anywhere no additives no fillers no synthetics or added sugar just pure fruits and vegetables in every capsule it's that simple are you ready to transform your health in 2025 for a limited time use promo code Jordan to get 35% off your first order plus receive a free fiber and spice supplement head over to balance ofn nature.com and

use promo code Jordan for 35% off your first order as a preferred Customer plus get a free bottle of fiber and spice that's balance of nature.com promo code Jordan for 35% off balance of nature promo code Jordan for 35% off your first preferred order plus a free bottle of fiber and spice what about surrogacy in general like you have people who um who who are buried who who fulfill the other criteria that you described who are infertile and who turn to surrogacy as a well as a as the pathway forward that's Presented to them because

of their lack of options what what's your and I know what we're trying to do here you see we're trying to draw this fine line a between social policy that's rep replicable and iterable and productive on mass and the particular interests of particular people you know and it's well that's a tight that's a very difficult balance to attain and something can certainly be good for people at an individual level and not good at a Iterating and social level and we have to always consider that when we act you know um that's what isn't that K's

Maxim act as if your action becomes a universal principle there's something to that that's very profound um as as a general ethical Maxim so let's talk about surrogacy in general I don't I don't necessarily think that there is a delicate nuanced line um and and can it be iterated and if you are going to do one thing that is going to be Extrapolated for the general population I'm kind of a simpleton um in that I'm not I'm not a thought leader I read the thought leaders I listen to you and John Anderson and um I

love Truman but I'm a translator I listen to what you guys say I I respect the policy makers but I want to translate it down to something that is accessible and applicable for everybody and I will tell you I can use the same metric and rubric and I think this is great for personal decisions and Policy decisions and that one rubric is adults should sacrifice so kids don't have to we should not force children to do hard things on behalf of adults and ultimately any form of surrogacy is forcing children to sacrifice buy something so

adults can have what they want nobody has a right to a child children have a right to their mother and father well that's that's a that's an interesting point let's see if we can take that apart a little bit so you're You're uh contrasting two two hypothetical rights and you're giving one clear Primacy okay so let's see if we can let's see if we can sort that out so you said adults don't have a right to children but children have a right they don't have a right to acquire a child you have a right to

your own biological child I mean when you leave the hospital you don't want to just leave with any baby you want your baby and you have a Fundamental natural pre-political right to that baby but you don't have a right to acquire a child that then has to lose their genuine right to their mother or father so that they can be taken home by you so there is not a nebulous right well that that fine so but if I said well if I can acquire that economically if I have the means at my disposal then why

doesn't that translate into a right now your your argument I think is that because it comes at the expense of the Child and then that lands us back into the well is it better that the child exists or not argument right that lands us back in that domain so that that so you think that it isn't appropriate for someone to acquire that right why exactly let's let's go into that more it's because it violates the child's pre-political right to biological parentage yeah so first let me say I think that there's an abuse of the word

rights in our world um you know and it's Very much like a Mr incredibl thing when everything's a right nothing is a right and unfortunately it seems like whatever adults really really really really want is conveniently framed as a right but if you're looking at things from a natural law perspective um not not necessarily what we would even consider to be a civil law because civil laws can be out of step with natural laws and again I'm not a natural lawyer thank God one of the most um well-renowned natural law Scholars um Robert George wrote

the forward for our first book them before us why we need a global children's rights movement so they there is natural law precedence for this but like I said I'm a translator um and so I don't I don't think in these kind of first principle ways I will tell you how to determine whether or not something is a natural right based on sort of my simplified understanding of natural rights and then we'll be able to figure Out pretty easily whether or not you have a right to acquire a surrogate born child even though you're purchasing

egg and renting the womb and taking the children across borders without any without any kind of background check even though you've got a criminal history and you're a known pedophile which has happened in surrogacy cases so let's figure out to what children and adults have a natural right so when I my understanding of natural rights and my Co-author Stacy Manning and I kind of detailed this out in our first book there's three rules that make something a genuine natural right number one it needs to exist pregn right and that's kind of what our country was

founded on is this idea that government doesn't give you rights they just recognize and protect rights so a genuine natural right exists pregn so like your right to life Your Right to Life existed before the government government's not there to Give it to you they're there to protect it number two nobody has to provide it for you so if it has to be like dug up from the ground bottled labeled shipped and put on a shelf it's not a natural right you might even need it to survive but it's not necessarily a natural right number

three a natural right is given an equal distribution so if there's a differentiation in terms of the level of attainment or achievement a GED versus a PhD or a dorm versus marao it's not a Natural right if it's a genuine natural right you have it in equal measure everybody gets exactly one life everybody has the same ability should have the same ability to defend themselves should have the same ability to speak and all of us regardless of the technological tinkering that was done in some laboratory somewhere have exactly two parents one mother and one father

so children have a fundamental natural Right to the two people responsible for their existence do adults have a right to acquire a child that is not biological Al theirs no they don't because that violates the fundamental natural rights of kids okay so let's let me ask you this that these natural rights of the child why let's see if we can investigate why those are important or even crucially important and that will also help us set them against the Hypothetical rights of adults now you know you can imagine you could make a case I suppose that

that maternal longing is something that existed before the government like it's an intrinsic part of human nature and the government's there to ensure that it's manifestation is made is Realized and you could imagine an argument for sery on that basis but your claim is that you're violating something more fundament Al which is the child's right to two parents okay so let's take that apart okay and I'll do that as critically as I can um as far as I can tell and and we we have to look at the doces of this children are pretty good

at bonding with multiple people they're not good at Bonding with multiple people sequentially If the previous person they bonded with disappears so for example example you could bring a nanny into your house and the child could bond very nicely with that Nanny but you can't it's hard on the child to replace the nanny let's say um especially when the children are under three but children can bond with multiple people and we know that partly too because our past was in all well self-evidently tribal And many people participated in the raising of a child now that

doesn't mean that the mother and father don't have some privacy but it means that many people can participate and so you could imagine well the argument would go that these relationships are the maternal and paternal relationships are substitutable as they are to some degree your argument is that the they're not as substitutable as people would like to presume and in that substitution Something of transcendent value is lost well here's here's a possible example on the biologic iCal side you know that babies and mothers swap DNA and they do that at a level microchimerism that that

level that's so profound that like a baby will donate stem cells to its mother so that the mother heals better during pregnancy right and the mother will here's something very interesting too so a mother's breasts can Detect calcium shortage on the part heart of the babies and mothers who detect calcium shortages will extract calcium from their own bones to fortify their milk to fortify their children and so there are a lot of biological nuances in the maternal infant relationship that we don't understand we understand too for example that babies who are born by C-section often

have impaired immunological systems because they didn't pass through the vaginal Canal I Mean there are a lot of things going on biologically that are complex and sophisticated beyond belief but also beyond our understanding and these are the sorts of things that you're pointing to that a child is deprived of but and fair enough but it's it's also harsh perhaps necessarily harsh but definitely harsh to say to someone who's 35 and desperate for a child and who has the means to pursue surrogacy that that is off the table by Fiat despite the Fact that the technology

is there and the the opportunity is hand at hand so I know we're going over the same territory to some degree but that's okay well let me ask you if you don't mind um what are the studies that we have on maternal loss and the impact that it has on kids what what are the studies that you know of of kids that grow up without their mothers and how they Fair well I know that the that period of time especially Between zero and nine months is critical for it's foundationally critical and that if those relationships

are disrupted it produces wounds that are deep and potentially irreparable the reason I asked you that is you couldn't think of any off the top of your head right not specifically no not not any more specifically than what I just laid out right and that's because mother loss it used to be that if the mother was Gone the baby's dead yes yes well mother loss the mother loss is so antithetical to our species right that that mother and child are bonded so tightly both in the ways that you're talking about in terms of like responsiveness

of of breast milk formulation I mean I always joke that Mother's breast milk will change whether or not she's nursing a boy or a girl so mom's boobs know male and female when a lot of Yale University professors Do not okay I mean like mother infant Bond and reciprocity between the two of them is is is Primal I mean that's really the only word that you can have for it and so we don't have a lot of studies of mother loss in children because it goes against the grain of what it means to be human

and now we think we are just going to casually say you know what we can int intentionally and commercially sever that bond between mother and child um because we have the Means to do it and who am I to say that a woman who's 35 that has the means that desperately wants to be a mother who is going to take home her own genetic child who am I to say that she shouldn't do that um well I'm here to say as best as I can that I am representing the interest of that child and the

interest of that child is to not be intentionally separated from the only person they know that the day that they are born and I would say that the best example the Best proof that we have of the harms of that is adopted kids um and I say this as an adoptive mother I say it as a woman who is the former assistant director of the largest Chinese adoption agency in the world somebody that understands that adoption is an institution centered around the well-being of children and it is an act of justice for children who have

lost their parents so I'm not anti-adoption I am telling you that adopted children Have more externalizing disorders than than the general population even though they are raised by homes that are statistically more stable wealthier and adults who spend more time and money on them than the average population so why is that it looks as though disruption of that Primal bond with the birth mother has some kind of lifelong consequences and Fallout well there's another there's another explanation too there I mean Because there there's also the the High likelihood that children who end up in a

position to be adopted come from families with genetic histories that predispose them to disruption and so that that that well those are the two possible sources of the outcomes that you described how much is attributable one to the other that's a very complicated thing to sort out but I don't think it it Bears directly on on your it doesn't bear necessarily Directly on your fundamental argument that there's additional consequences well and we do know to to be more precise in your in responding to your question about studies well we actually do know the studies there

are studies that have been done on maternal disruption first of all we know that prior to the 19th 20th century the one-year mortality rate for children who had no mother in orphanages was 100% they all died And that was changed by a woman nurse a female nurse and an researcher whose name I can't remember her name was fat Anna and she had a ward in Germany where the children didn't die and or at least all of them didn't die and the investigator whose name I can't remember went to Germany to see what was going on

there and the only difference he could see in the ward was that a nurse would take the babies out of their crib and carry them around on her hip for some Amount of time every day and that amount of direct contact was enough to entice them into life and then there's an immense literature that was founded most profoundly by this animal researcher named Yak PP who looked at the effects of maternal deprivation mostly on animal behavior and it's cataclysmic right well and that's where most of what we have in terms of maternal Harms is in

Rat populations why is that it's because it's absolutely unethical to test this On human children because even brief maternal deprivation we know based on those rat studies can permanently alter the structure of a child's brain so like when we start tinkering with the Maternal Child Bond um because some adults are sad or maybe they have an identity that leads them to a place where they do not have an egg or a womb between them so then we're going to just bypass and ignore everything that we know about the nature of the human child And maternal

deprivation and the harms that go along with the maternal loss maybe also everything that we know about the mother like you described yourself earlier as an Evangelical Christian and I spent a lot of time looking at the imagery of of Mary right if you think Mary is the archetypal female that you can make that case that's a reasonable case to make but the thing about Mary is that Mary isn't in individual Mary is Mother and an infant and I think that The human female nervous system is actually adapted to the mother infant diad and not

to the best interests of the mother because women are are differentially sensitive to negative emotion which makes them suffer more and so you have to ask why and one answer to that and it's not the only answer but one answer and I'm sure at least it's partly true is that women sacrifice their own emotional stability and happiness to be there as alarm systems For their infants and that's how tightly wired they are together and so it it could easily be that the proper image of woman in for a penny and in for a pound let's

say the proper image of woman isn't individual woman the way it is individual man it's woman plus infant and that now agree you agree with that do you yeah okay I agree I mean just because I'm a mom and I'm an observer of reality and I'm around a lot of women and children and husbands and children All of which I mean mothers and fathers offer distinct and compliment benefits to Children neither of them are replaceable kids need a mom and a dad um and you know it's so interesting because then I'm sure some of the

objections that we're getting from some of the people that are listening to this would they'll say well and and you know Dave Rubin said this in your conversation with him too that his husband Dave David is very nurturing and very empathetic um That he's going yeah sure well you know one of the other categories of children whose stories we try to catalog um at them before us is children with same-sex parents our website thembe us.com probably has the largest Story Bank of kids with LGBT parents and for a while I had a very active group

chat of kids with two moms or two dads um who could just talk amongst themselves because I'll tell you if there's one demographic In this country that's truly in the closet it's kids with same-sex parents who desperately miss their mother or father but cannot say that out loud because they are accused of being bigots and homophobes even by people in their own family so the place where they can talk to each other is sort of in these Anonymous spaces and there were a lot of those kids who would openly admit I mean most of them

had two moms there was there was only one that had two dads at One point and they didn't they didn't stay too long but many of them would say look I had a fem mom and I had a Butch mom I mean those words their words not mine um you know the butch mom worked on cars shaved her head was stockier um and the fem mom longer hair kind of slim worked in the kitchen and I asked them I said did any of those Butch Moms meet your need for a father and they're like no

she was my Butch mom and I I loved her I appreciated her I respected her But I craved male love so this is not the kind of thing where a man can put on sort of a feminine presence kids actually want crave need deserve and have a right to their mother and their father they don't want somebody that acts masculine or asks feminine at least from the kids that I know and obviously I probably have uh a slanted sampling because the kids that are coming to me many of which are going to come after this

interview too I I we get tons of Letters and testimonies from kids who cannot say this kind of thing out loud anywhere else can you believe that Good Friday and Easter are just around the corner these are the most important holidays in Christianity and lent is our time to prepare our hearts lent is traditionally a time where Christians grow closer to God through prayer fasting and giving to others and guess what hallow has created an amazing way to do just that with their lent prayer 40 challenge called the way don't worry if you haven't started

yet it's definitely not too late this challenge helps us remember that Jesus is the way to heaven showing us that true peace love and joy require genuine sacrifice you'll love this Mark Wahlberg and Chris Pratt are leading some incredible challenges about sacrifice and surrender Jonathan roomy and sister Miriam James will guide you through these powerful stories and prayer experiences and Father Mike schmidtz his Sunday sermons are absolutely spectacular this is already shaping up to be Hallow's biggest lent ever with thousands of people from all over the world joining together in prayer here's the best part

you can get 3 months completely free when you sign up at hall.com Jordan that covers the entire lent challenge once you join you'll we'll discover a huge catalog of guided prayers meditations music and so much more all designed to Help you grow closer to God and find the peace that we're all looking for so download the hall app today and jump into the lent prayer 40 challenge your spirit will thank you do you know of any data that isn't biased pertaining to that because you you clearly have a sample bias problem that doesn't mean that

the problems that your people are communicating aren't real but it doesn't allow you to specify because what you'd really want is a Random sample of children with two moms and two dads and that's going to be a small sample to begin with and you'd want to see if their attitudes towards their parents and their life differed in any important way from the norm or maybe even differed in any important way from the experiences of the adoptive kids that you described because maybe that would be a more appropriate control group and like that's a pretty tough

study to do and maybe 's been done I Don't know of one that doesn't mean it doesn't exist you but you have your chat group they're incredibly rare yeah the a quick note on samesex parented studies um it's very rare to have high quality studies interestingly up until about 2005 there was a consensus among the social scientist Community um that children made raised by their married biological mother and father fared best in a lowc conflict marriage I mean like that is what they tended to say in Unison and then strangely in the leadup to oberfell

in those 10 years there was an explosion of studies that said that kids with two moms or two dads fared no different or even better than kids raised by heterosexual parents right even yeah and then when you look at it right those 79 studies or whatever many of which used the same data set and then reinterpreted and spun it to create multiple different studies when you look at them they all had very serious Methodological problems like you said not randomly derived they were volunteered recruited there weren't adequate controls they were very small sample cited they

weren't longitudinal they couldn't replicate them um and and most of them had to do with the self-reporting of adults like there was even a study that came out uh last year in Italy you know gay fathers children you know did just as well as heterosexual parents but you look at it And it's like gay fathers report that their children under 10 love having gay dads I'm like what you're saying is heterosexual parents are more honest about their shortcomings than gay fathers are that's what you're talking about there so it is going to be a long

time well first of all there hasn't been a whole lot of studies since oberfell since gay marriage was legalized um because it was very obvious that there was a political push towards advancing Those kinds of studies in the lead up to the Supreme Court's decision well and you can imagine how difficult it would be to even to publish a study that showed negative results man I mean your your career as an academic would be over the the research Jal it would be pill like be there be homophobic hell toay on every bloody Dimension and so

and that would be F he did this what's that yes that's Mark rys did that he published the study in 2012 Um and he did he used the gold standard of you know social science he got randomly derived participants he asked the children themselves as adults what their outcomes were were they more likely to be sexually abused were they more likely to suffer emotional distress or depression were they more likely to be on welfare benefits um and the you know the no difference study actually turned out to be a massive difference um and he almost

lost his job they came After his credentials they made his life a living hell and since then like just like you said um there's been a queering of family studies and so now you don't get funded unless there is a pre-political conclusion that you've already assigned to subscribed to and are advancing through that study so wouldn't it be nice if we had good data that would be great we don't there's very few studies that apply that gold standard of sociological social science Methodology Paul Sullins did do it um where he evaluated some government data um

and no surprise um those no differences ended up being major differences especially as it related to things like daily fearfulness daily crying higher levels of emotional distress much higher levels of children who had um educational you know IEPs that kind of thing and why are we surprised by this you know anytime sociologists are not Studying same-sex parenting anytime they're doing any other kind of family structure study they generally agree that biological parents Advantage children in terms of they are more connected more invested and more protective of children they generally agree that men and women offer

distinct and complimentary benefits to child rearing they generally agreed that losing a parent to death divorce abandonment results in child harms um They generally agreed that an unrelated adult increases the child's risk of abuse and neglect by a lot but then suddenly when by a lot a lot like like step parent presence is unbelievably unbelievably an unbelievably massive risk factor it's really quite terrifying they have a we have a name for it it's called The Cinderella effect like that's how well established it is you know and Wilson and Daly you know the Canadian great sociologist

very very solid Research so good yeah and yeah what did they find that rates of fatal beatings in kindergarteners in Canada between the ages between the years of like 1979 and 1990 150 times greater at the hands of a stepfather and so I just I'm like okay look we know that the most dangerous place a child can find themselves in America today is in the home of an unrelated man left to care for the child himself and so but now somehow we're Normalizing all of these other Modern Family forms where there's always an unrelated adult

in the home where the child's always being deprived of a biological parent where they're very often missing the maternal or paternal love that maximizes child development and somehow we're supposed to believe that these kids fa no different I mean unfortunately it's just one more example of why we cannot trust the institutions they've been aured by this woke ideology And it's kids that are suffering what let's move to practicalities if if that's okay um and if there's other particular areas of concern that we should delve into divorce for example I'd be happy to do that I

would like to talk to you about divorce actually but I tell me about your practical um strategies what exactly does your organization do how widespread is it what effect have you had what are your Plans flesh that out and maybe in a way too that enables people to determine if they would like to help or or whether they could help and if so how so so tell me tell me more about your organization about what you're up to um what I'm up to is a global takeover that is what I'm up to you and CLA

SCH if I do that's right me and Claus can go toe to- toe baby yeah do you have a naked cat do you have a naked cat that you like carry around with that no but I do have Cat I've got multiple cats okay okay well when for that's I think that's offset by the fact that you have children though I do have children thank God great children okay so Global takeover global global takeover is what we're after in fact that's one of the reasons that was the first thing I said to um John Anderson

when he invited me to join The Advisory Board and he he would you guys hadn't even named it yet but he's like we're doing this thing I Was like what are you doing and he kind of described it I'm like ah the righteous inverse of the world economic Forum please let me in so I love it like let's do that same Global influence but not top down elitism bottom up personal responsibility but it does need to be Global this movement to protect kids has to go into every country of the world because children in every

country are their rights are under threat from the same cultural legal and technological Forces that are seeking to deconstruct their fundamental rights and relegate them to the status of accessory to be cut and pasted into any and every adult relationship to the detriment of their identity formation to the detriment of their Safety and Security the investment connection protection that all children deserve so how do we do it what does the global takeover look like um and it has to be two things we want to change hearts and we want to change laws it has To

be both so last year we did you know a hundred interviews um published on dozens of platforms making the case that all adults need to sacrifice for children because the only alternative is for children to sacrifice for adults and that is an injustice anytime you have the weak sacrificing for the strong that that's all the evidence evidence that you need that something unjust is taking place that is never the pattern of Justice it always needs to be The strong sacrificing for the weak so you want to talk practicality AR that is it think that would

be an argument that would be music to the ears of the typical leftist right because that is in principle the fundamental the fundamental Orient orienting Point of someone who stands for the oppressed and the poor which is in principle the classic leftist stance and it's also the case that you are in a way objecting to the commod Commodification of children which you would also assume would be an attract Ive principle to those on the left who are anti-corporate commodification although that seems to be a a commitment that's honored mostly in the breach when it comes

to let's say pharmaceutical companies and reproductive Freedom right because that that freedom comes with commodification as we' seen in the case of Planned Parenthood for Example yes I I I think that there again you get into the Waters of mislabeling adult desires as rights a right to choose a right to reproductive Freedom a right to Parenthood um all of those things really just mean I'm going to cut the child's mother or father out of their life or I'm going to Snuff out a child's right to life so it's very important that we properly Define rights

children's right to life children's right to their mother and father you Could add to that children's right to innocence um not to have their um you know not not to be in adulterate sexualized or whatever certainly a right to an intact UNM medicalized body not to have their um healthy organs amputated or chemically sterilized through transgender treatments I mean the truth is that if you prioritize kids If you defend their life family mind and body you kind of win the culture War you get The right answer to all of the major issues that we're facing

especially culturally especially whenever it intersects with the primary question of what it means to be human if you can Elevate and exalt the rights of children you get the right personal decisions and you get the right policy decisions so we are absolutely out there to change Hearts but we also want to change laws so many of these child commodifying child victimizing ideas Technologies and Laws go completely unchallenged there is nobody to speak up on behalf of children and maybe very likely I'm not the most qualified person to do this but nobody was doing it and

so that's that's what we aim to do do is we aim to represent children well um give them a voice when it comes to battling back bad legislation we're at the place this year where we're able to propose some policy recommendations especially for state level lawmakers who want to claw back Some of the Lost territory when it comes to losing the marriage and family battle um you know state after State and Nation after Nation you know I've been thinking a lot about the early days of the internet remember when it felt like this vast open

Frontier a place where you could truly be free freee from corporate oversight free from tracking and free from somebody looking over your shoulder kind of like America itself used to be But these days every time we go online we're being watched your internet service provider sees everything every site you visit every click you make and here's the kicker in the US they can legally sell all that information to third parties your privacy data becomes just another commodity that's exactly why we here at the daily wire started using expressvpn it's This brilliant piece of technology that

routes all your online activity through secure encrypted Servers everything you do online is shielded from prying eyes your internet provider data Brokers all of them because expressvpn hides your IP address for the first time in years you can make your data actually feel like it's yours again imagine that both our hosts and production teams here at the daily wire use expressvpn to reroute all their daily activity through expressvpn secure encrypted servers to hide their IP addresses that means no one can track Them or build profiles of their behavior and it's easy to use one tap

to connect that's it it works on up to eight devices phones tablets TVs computers you name it it's protected so if you want to return to the good old days of online privacy and freedom get expressvpn you can use our special link to get four extra months of expressvpn for free at expressvpn.com Jordan that's expressvpn.com Jordan today so you Said that if you prioritize the natural rights of children you you obtain victory in the proper direction in the culture war and so that would say put a stop to how mongering for the sake of hedonistic

gain which is really in many ways how I see the lgbtq power nightmare it's the acquisition of power to prioritize sexual identity and and sexual gratification though the entire Identity structure is predicated on sexual identity and so that's obviously associated with sex and that's associated with free sex which of course doesn't exist and is certainly not something that's in the best interests of children but it also seems to me that not only let's say by prioritizing the rights of children so the interests of children the natural interests of children not only does the culture War

sort itself out properly but You actually serve this goes back to the beginning of our discussion the interests of the long-term sophisticated interests of men and women better and so so so let's wander down that road a little bit um because this pertains to some of the issues that are going to be discussed at the ark conference on February 17th to the 19th in London which you're going to and I'm going to you're on The Advisory Board of that uh as as you indicated Earlier and thank you for that um my wife is going to

be doing a panel there I don't know if you're involved in that panel but if you're not well you're going to be involved in s Enterprises at some point and and you're doing that all on your own anyways so but see we watched a documentary by one of the people who's going to participate on involuntary childlessness and he laid out some the the uh director writer of this documentary laid out some very Stark facts and so one of them maybe the starkest is that the typical 30-year-old woman in the West is now childless half more

than half are childless okay and uh we already know that one in three couples at the age of 30 have fertility problems and so that is defined as being able unable to conceive within a year of attempting it and trying to conceive okay so by by 30 it's one and three his data indicate that 50% of the women who don't have Children at the age of 30 will never have a child child so that's one in Four Women is now destined to childlessness and that 90% of those eventually childless women will regret it and so

we've doomed one in4 women to the last to a solitary existence for the last five Decades of their life and I I can't imagine what kind of cataclysm that's going to be when those women are 70 and older because they'll have no one to speak for them right when they're Most vulnerable and least economically productive so you know of course in Canada that we've turned to government assisted suicide as a um as a partial solution to that problem and I think that's the fifth leading cause of death in Canada now it's something like that tens

of thousands of people and we're expanding that of course to people who are in economic distress people who are in who are having uh psychological problems like depression virtually Everybody who's seriously depressed is suicidal by the way because they believe themselves to be a burden and so okay so anyways the the issue here I think at hand is the degree to which the interests of children and the interests of the true interests of men and women aligned so we know that men are likely they have a proclivity for antisocial behavior and substance abuse and that

tends to amarate around the age of 25 or 26 they desist most of Them and the reason for that is they take on responsible jobs or they get married so men grow up when they get married and well they grow up because well they have to civilize themselves enough so a woman can stand having them around but also in preparation for having children and then what do you think that having children what do you think that having children does for women and why do you think that we lie about all of that to young women

all the Time constantly um so much in there to unpack um first of all we certainly are seeing an increase in infertility struggles of obviously a lot of that is environmental but a lot of it is because women are squandering their primary childbearing years doing other things I mean you are hyper fertile in your 20s and somewhat in your early 30s but not so much in your late 30s and definitely not in your 40s I mean once you get to be 35 and You're pregnant that's a geriatric pregnancy baby I mean you've got a really

narrow window to have children and so especially if you want more than one you have to get started sooner so a lot of I think that a lot of the infertility crisis that we're seeing is actually just a marriage formation crisis and because people are starting to late and so you know I tell young women when I speak to them you really can have it all I Mean I have the Most Blessed incredible rich life I mean I have an incredible career where I'm doing what I feel called to do even though obviously there's a

cost and it's uncomfortable and all of that but I also have four incredible kids who are 21 19 17 and 15 um and I tell women you can have it all but you can't have it all at once and you better have marriage and kids first do that first now sometimes you don't get to choose I know a lot of wonderful Women that are those 30-year-old women who don't have kids yet who desperately want to and wish that they were married and wanted to be married when they were 22 but I also know women who

could have been married when they were 22 or 25 or 27 or 35 and put it off because the world was telling them you have plenty of time or actually real equality means getting your master's degree or making partner at the law firm and then you discover woefully too late that you were Lied to and now you have a life of emptiness and and Solitude ahead and it is incred r l dark and some of those women I pray find Fellowship Community and family in a body of Believers at church um but you are shortchanging

women especially the ones that long for it of something that really will make them bring them alive and bring them long-term Joy protection investment Connection in a way that somebody that you're paying to care for you is never Going to be able to provide ultimately like all of the different questions you know you talk talked about maid we're talking about the population crisis we're talking about you know all of these reproductive Technologies in these different forms of family ultimately they all have the same Source it's the same question it all comes down to the same

thing and the question is what does it mean to be human what does it mean to be human and honestly like a word for The Christians out there you are the ones with the right answer to this I mean the humanists did not get it right the postmodernists did not get it right the evolutionists don't get it right you the ones that understand the Amo day you the one that understands who gives and who takes life you who understands that we are made in the image of God male and female he created them you who

understand that job Isaiah and Jeremiah were all set apart in the womb you who Understand that Christ came incarnate as a child as an infant and said let the little children come to me and if you want to attain the Kingdom of Heaven you have to become like one of these you who understand that God has devised serious corporal punishment if you cause one of these little ones to stumble you are the ones Christians who have the right answer to what it means to be human and the world is desperate for us to take that

truth into all these conversations About marriage family formation death With Dignity abortion IVF reproductive Technologies surrogacy marriage transgenderism every single thing every hot button topic everything that gets you cancelled um on Facebook and everything that gets you banned from Thanksgiving dinner ultimately come comes down to what does it mean to be human and that is a life-saving answer that is a child protective answer it's a civilizational defending answer so you Need to increase your knowledge and then increase your voice in the public sphere it probably is the thing that is going to save the nation

so one of the things that we're wrestling with at ARK is identity in a digital age and that's the topic that you just um very eloquently expanded upon from a religious perspective and uh and we're trying to do some of this in the most practical possible Manner and so one of the Questions that my wife is trying to address at the moment is while she's trying to investigate the nature of femininity and not from the postmodernist or feminist perspective let's say um what does it mean to be female and how is that distinct from being

male and this is a very complicated problem and and one of the ways to make that practical is to lay out something approximating a timeline like the Timeline as you've pointed out there's an implicit timeline for women in modern society now and the implicit timeline for ambitious women let's say is establish yourself as an independent creature between 20 and 30 so that you don't have to depend on a man prioritize your education and your career which is a very weird thing for Lefty progressives to be telling young women since in principle they're opposed to the

corporate kleptocracy and yet insist At the same time that women should bow down to it and serve it during their youthful years which is a paradox I just can't reconcile but um the problem with that as you've pointed to already and as we've discussed is that the window of reproductive opportunity for women is actually pretty damn short it's about it's a maximum of 20 years and and practically it's less than that I would say optimally it's more like 10 and then I've thought I've kind of tried To think that through arithmetically too because what that

means for the typical woman I think and this is for the typical high functioning attractive woman is that she probably only has the opportunity to assess about five Partners you know if it takes you if people are actually interested in you which is not a given how long does it take to to investigate a relative stranger to Determine whether or not they're a suitable partner assuming that's what they want and I think you're fortunate if you do that five times in 10 years like that's that's a stretch goal and so you have to solve that

problem pretty early and and maybe we need to be more pointed it's like you know the victorians believe that a woman should be married by 22 something like that I think that was threshold for old ma it was Something pretty young um that has a harshness about it let's say but so does being involuntarily childless at 35 by the way right which is the fate of one in Four Women now so it's also the case interestingly that women live about seven years longer than men you know and so you could imagine you could just have

that seven years for your little kids cuz that's you can have you can do a pretty good job with little Kids making them their priority for seven years so if you're thinking this through if you were setting up an optimal life course for a young woman in an advisory capacity like how do you view the role of a young woman in her let's say from 15 to to 19 and then from 20 to 25 let's break it into 5year periods and tell me what you think mhm yeah I've got a couple of those in my

house well passing through my house I've got a 19-year-old and a 21-year-old Daughter um and you know what we tell them is especially during the teen years your job is friendship like I think we have a marriage crisis in this country because we have a dating crisis and we have a dating crisis because we have a friendship crisis it is very hard for young people these days to have to form and maintain healthy peer relationships um obviously because the digital space has taken over a lot of their peer-to-peer Communications and so you Really do have

to train your kids to maximize and develop their same-sex friendships during the teen years a lot of that is going to be modeling are you modeling good same-sex friendships in terms of vulnerability but good boundaries where you need it with different people um are you being are you showing them the transparency how you need one another how you rejoice when they rejoice and mourn when they and I mean you become what you behold Okay for better or worse and so model great friendships obviously I am of the persuasion I am not one of the kind

of Kissed Dating Goodbye U Christians courtship only I actually do think that um there is a role for dating in high school and college um because I do think that you need to appropriately practice um interacting with the opposite sex so I've told my daughters you know when they're juniors and seniors that if a boy has the guts to say do you want to Go out and get coffee you should say yeah I'd love to you need to reward him for Having the courage to ask you in person to do that you don't have to

say yes and of course you never need to do it if you feel creeped out or anything like that but there is a you know you talk about men being civilized and I would say the proper understanding of that is that women civilize the men it is women that have the civiliz civilizing um effect on men and and you Know the example I always use is when I see when I'm walking down the street in Seattle and I see three men coming towards me on the sidewalk I don't care how big they are what race

they are I will cross to the other side of the street I'm not going to walk past them but if I see those three men walking hand inand with their girlfriend or wives I'm not going to cross the street okay there's just something in me that knows that male Behavior has changed Because they are now United and they've bonded themselves to a woman in some way okay um so I tell my girls you have an incredible power on men to elevate their behavior their choices their decisions by how you respond to them okay it is

the soft power that shapes the world right that's what women really are the soft power that shapes the world not the dominant Naggy power the soft beautiful alluring power that changes the world so I do think that there's a role of dating And I do think that we should encourage healthy dating not drunkenness not permanent friend zone not jumping in and hooking up a slow careful dating relationship where there's parental involvement where you can evaluate especially worldview alignment and then when you get into college I I mean I told my 19-year-old who is an incredible

soccer player in just oh my gosh all of my kids are incredible my 19-year-old was looking for a college she considered One that had a 75% female to male ratio and I said you won't even apply to that college absolutely not like this is your primary age the primary window for you to find somebody who is like-minded join your life to them in a Cornerstone kind of marriage not a Capstone marriage where you figure it all out and then put the cherry on the top marriage no we're going to be strategic about who you're exposed

to between the ages of 18 and 22 this is your chance and I do and I think Parents have a huge role to play in encouraging early family formation early marriage proper dating um you can't control everything you shouldn't try to control everything but the messages that you send the signals that you send the environments you put your kid in it can lead them to the place where they are not involuntarily single when they're 30 so let's talk about dating a bit more because you talked about the civilizing effect of women and and the role

of of Allure of of the alluring quality of women and Beauty in that and there's definitely that's the calling aspect but there's a conscience aspect too that I think is worth highlighting that's relevant to young women so um there has been a series of recent studies on the personalities of people who prefer short-term mating strategies and so that would be hookup culture and that's a variant of a widespread biological strategy for Reproduction that varies on one dimension which is investment versus no investment right human beings are high investment reproducers but some human beings prefer a

relatively low investment High investment strategy and those are people who keep your daughters away from them that's right but but I want to explain why because we actually we know why now we know why because the personality structure of men who prefer hookup Culture has been delineated so The Men Who prefer no investment sex are MCU Alan so they use their language to manipulate they're Psychopathic so they're predatory parasites they're um narcissistic so they crave unearned social status and to cap it all off they're sadistic right so one of the things that the sexual Revolution

did free love one of the things that the free Love Revolution did was hand women over to Psychopaths right this is not good so so the other thing I'm curious about this with your daughters well the other thing that women do for men is put limits on their psychopathy and their narcissism well that's part of that civilizing process but the limits aren't so much they're partly that beauty and that alluring quality but they're also partly hell no right because one of the things I've discussed With my wife for example you tell me what you think

about this I think almost all the status that women have granted to to them from men like let's say at least in the domain of romantic entanglement and reproduction comes from the woman's ability to say no the ability to stay say no is actually a status marker and that's especially true if the person who's pursuing you is relatively High status male because what you and women you know they're they're Hypergamous they tend to mate up across and up hierarchies and so then you ask well what status does a woman have if she's pursuing a high

status male and the answer is she has whatever status is granted to her by her ability to re to what to stand inv violent against his advances that's a marker of her status and so there's a limit setting there too that's crucial and it's certainly something that men there's no doubt that that's one of the Ways that men test women you know now you could say well if I say no and that might especially be true at a college that's 75% girls and 25% boys if I say no I'll never see him again but the

right attitude towards that is if you say no and you see him again you should be never see him again you should be glad he's gone that's exactly right yeah yeah a few things um another thing that the sexual Revolution did not just handing Women over to the worst of all men but it made women it made young girls very hungry for any kind of male attention because it disproportionately starved them of the paternal love that was supposed to satisfy that longing for male attention and so you know through the course of the you know

the last couple decades where we decided to abandon the traditional Notions of sex only within marriage with meant children generally being bored to a household Where they were going to have daily contact with both their mother and their father is now we have girls who grew up without their father or with a revolving door of different men coming in and out of their mother's lives on average as you know these girls will start their periods a year ear a whole year earlier that's exactly right so they their bodies are literally signaling I I need to

search for a man and so now not only are there more men that are predatory For girls but now there's more girls that you know we call this father hunger in our work mother hunger or father hunger like maybe you've got you know two moms or two dads who love you or a single mom who's providing for you materially but they do not meet your need for male or female love and so you hunger for it and this is why you see incredibly High rates of teen pregnancy among girls who are fatherless right because they

didn't have that daily male Love that they longed for but they found it maybe they only found it for five minutes on a Friday night but they found it and so I think the sexual revolution has been bad for women of course my argument is it has been especially bad for children you know perpetuating terrible Cycles a note on Tammy's podcast if you have not watched it you should go subscribe um she has done some really fantastic interviews uh on this topic of you know a proper understanding Of what it means to be a woman

female the interviews she's done on the effects of birth control on women's Brains I have sent out to tons of people so it's very worthy of um your time and attention for that um in terms of my daughters and limits and elevating the behavior of the men around them I will tell you that both of them got a lot of attention from guys most of the guys were not worthy of a lot of their time and attention um but I will say that There were a few times where they said no I mean and I'm

not talking about to a major sexual Advance I'm just saying no you can't have my attention no I won't be your girlfriend no I won't continue to be your girlfriend if you continue to do these kinds of things and then they watch the men the the young men the 16-year-old the 17-year-old reform because the girl has something they want even if it's just attention even if it's just saying she is my girlfriend well There's nothing just about attention there's nothing but attention right attention is everything yeah so I just think that you know my daughters

have seen the incredible power of no yeah and I will tell young girls because I you know I've been involved in Youth Ministry for decades I was running the youth ministry at our church until about a year ago and I tell girls like if there's a guy that you really like and if you want him to Pursue you you say no to pretty much everything no I won't hold your hand no I mean be kind right yeah you can go on a date but if it has to do with a physical Advance the more you

say no the more your desirability goes up if you want him to move on give him what he wants physically so the power of give him what his whims want that's right right cuz you're serving the lowest part of him right and I don't mean that I don't mean that in Some sexually prudish element I'm saying that sexual desire itself is a short-term gratification seeking mechanism so to speak and it has to be integrated into a personality that's forward-looking and future oriented and social and if the relationship degenerates to the immediately sexual then it serves

no one's medium to long-term interests and certainly not society's interest certainly not children's interests not least because It tends to culminate in abortion that's right yep that's exactly right kids lose kids lose anytime sex is happening outside of long-term committed heterosexual permanent unions kids will always pay the price for that I think that that's one of the reasons why we are where we are in terms of marriage and family is we have pretended like there's no cost but there is a cost there's always a cost to kids we've said if the adults are happy the

kids will be Happy we've said biology doesn't matter love makes a family but that's not true there's all somebody is always going to pay the price it's just the kids who pay it because they can't defend their own rights okay well thank you very much for talking to me today Katie and for helping us get to the bottom of the what the metaphysics of the rights of children I suppose and to place them in relationship to the rights and needs and wants of adults and those aren't the Same thing at all um I understand that

the conversations that you had at ARK at the alliance for responsible citizenship we had a convention there recently will be available to everyone and so if those of you who are watching and listening found this conversation useful and compelling and helped you further your ideas about the roles of men and women and mothers and fathers and children um in in in in families and in broader Society then you can check out Katie's Contribution to the alliance for responsible citizenship convention at that establishment we've made focus on family long-term minor committed heterosexual married child centered couples

uh Focus because we do think that well that's best for children it's best for mature adults it's and it it's a relationship that provides the foundation for a productive and abundant society and so well there's something in that to Annoy almost everyone but it still happens to be the truth as far as we can tell thank you very much for talking to me today we'll continue on The Daily wire side I think I'll talk to you about divorce and family policy and the costs to marriage under the current legal circumstances maybe we'll talk about no

fault divorce for example for everybody watching and listening thank you very much for your time and attention to the Daily wire for making this podcast Possible that's much appreciated to the film Crews here in Calgary Alberta and in Washington DC thank you for your contribution and uh on to the Daily wire died [Music]