David Irving, (Historian/Author) - 'The Holocaust'

Okay, just leave me and David just explain what this is. >> Right. This is David Irving of the Holocaust. The Holocaust and David Irving. Okay. >> Right in minefield. Right. >> Just don't cover your mic with your hand because that gets a little bit muffly when you Okay. Right. Okay. Yeah, that's fine. I want to talk about the Holocaust. That is to say, I don't want to talk about the Holocaust because it's a minefield. Historians, I suppose, when they when they see David Irving getting involved in the Holocaust, they say, "Yeah, go for it. I'm

interested to hear what you say." And then they pull back to the perimeter. They pull back to the horizon. They get out their binoculars and they have a look to see. They wait for you to go bang. Uh, I Haven't gone bang yet because I've been pretty careful about what I say. People say, "Oh, David Irvings pulled back. David Irvings retracted. David Irvings revised his views." I haven't within a narrow narrow band. I don't think I've changed my views very much over the years, but I've been very careful in what I say. First of all,

I don't like using the word holocaust. In in Greek, the word means sacrifice by fire. Um, it's got a capital H. Where Does it come from? Well, it came in in fact about 1970. If you go back beyond 1970, before 1970, you won't find the word being used in this context at all. Uh I know this because when I was in prison in Vienna, arrested under their banning law, as a historian should be for writing the truth. I suppose when I was in in prison in Vienna, I managed to persuade the Institute of History in

Munich, which holds all my papers, to send me the note Of the interview I had with the brother of Hinrich Himmler, the chief of the SS. Ghart Himmler was his totally unimportant brother. He had survived the war years. There he was living in 1971 in in in Munich as a retired civil servant. I went to interview him. Unfortunately, I wasn't interested in the Holocaust, as it's called at that time. Um, because I was writing my book about Adolf Hitler. I was more interested in the relationship between His brother Heiny and Hitler. Had I known I

was going to write a book eventually about Himmler, I would have spent far more time talking to the brother, but he's now dead. What is interesting is at the end of my four-page handwritten note to my interview with Hinrich Himmler's brother, Gard, I realized that although we had talked about the Holocaust, we'd never actually used the word. The word holocaust is nowhere on that on those Pages. And the reason is quite simple. I think that about 1972 there was a meeting somewhere in New York Madison Avenue where the Jewish community leaders got together with all

the professionals and said we want to start marketing this. We want to start making it bringing it to to the national to the global consciousness in the same way that you market a product like Tylenol like headache medicine. How can we do this? And the PR wizards said, "Well, let's tell tell you how you how you're going to do this like any other product. You got to give it a capital letter. You got to give it a trade name. You got to give it a capital letter. You got to stress how unique it is. There's

no no rivals. Uh you got to have a slogan. Um Guinness is good for you, that kind of thing. Take courage, whatever." Uh in this case, of course, it's the six million. Don't deviate from that slogan no matter what other stuff Comes up. And and hey, you're on to a winner. can make billions which of course is how things have gone ever since that meeting which I suppose happened because from that day on the word holocaust is in the media it's taken off it's now exponentially risen until it's gone to infinity if you if you

go to the times index or the index of the New York Times in America go back before 1970 you won't find the word being used after 1972 it Takes off exponentially it's been marketed which means that as a historian you've got to be extra careful so you're not being sold a bill of goods as the Americans say. You're not being taken for a ride. I believed the whole Holocaust story. I'm not going to call it legend. I believed the whole I'm not going to call it a myth either. I I believed the whole Holocaust story

until about 1988. If you read the first edition of my Hitler's book, there's Awitz in it as an extermination camp. If you read the latest edition of Hitler's war, you won't find Avitz is an extermination camp. Ashvitz is described here as being a brutal slave labor camp with a very high death rate which is probably a better description of it. It was neither one thing nor the other. And of course um certain people have taken that very much a miss that I don't go for the whole story. If you don't go for the Whole story,

you're in deep trouble. Your books are not published in this town again. Not in they're not published but they're not reviewed. They're not reviewed. They're not sold. I remember my very dear old literary agent, Max Becker, an American, one of the United States's leading literary agents, Max Becker, saying, "David, you got to understand one thing about publishing in the United States. Your problem when you write Books like Hitler's War. It isn't the fact that most of the publishing houses in the United States are Jewish, cuz they are. It isn't the fact that most of the

paperback houses, what they call reprint houses, are Jewish, because all big seven reprint houses in the United States are Jewish. Your problem isn't even the fact that most of the literary editors are Jewish. It isn't even the fact that most of the oped writers, the opinion writers in American newspapers Are Jewish. Your biggest problem is the fact that most people who buy books in the United States are Jewish. you're writing largely or significantly to a Jewish audience. And as the Germans say, you can't spring, you can't jump over your own shadow. I just mentioned that

in advance. You got a problem when you're writing about the Holocaust. And I hadn't been aware of that problem until I started deviating. And I suppose if I'm guilty of anything, it isn't revisionism. It isn't Holocaust denial. It's what the communists used to call deviationism. I deviate from the official from the conformist line. If you're a conformist historian like Martin Gilbert, you're going to write the conformist line and your book's going to be widely reviewed and published and sold and distributed and you're going to live a very comfortable Life. If you deviate from that line,

then hey, you're in for trouble. My deviationism began in April 1988. I was living actually on a beach in Florida. I was in in comfort in in April 1988 on a beach in Florida down south. It's very very warm up in Canada. It's very very cold. I mentioned that because I got a phone call from Canada from the defense team defending a German Canadian called Erns Zundor. I was a Hitler historian. I was an expert On the Third Reich. Would I be willing to come to Toronto within the next one or two days and give

evidence in a court of law as an expert on Hitler and the Third Reich? I said, "How cold is it?" And they said, "Well, it's below zero present about minus 20." And I looked at the temperature in Key West where I was in Florida, which is in the high 80s. And I thought, I don't really want to go there. But eventually I I relented and I Flew to Canada two or three days later. They swore I'd be only one day. There'd be one day and I'd give evidence and I catch the next plane back straight

to Miami and Florida down to Key West. In fact, I stayed there oh nearly a week. Very unpleasant, very cold. I gave evidence in the courtroom. The judge accepted me as an expert on the Third Reich. And what was interesting was before I went into the witness box on the day before, defense council, the Legendary Canadian barrista Douglas Christie gave me a ring binder to read. He said, "This is the loyster report and I want you to read it because I'm going to ask you questions about it." So I read the Loyster Report for the

first time. A film has been made about Fred Loyster called Mr. Death. Fred Loyster is an unassuming unprepossessing American engineer. Engineer in quotation marks because he's Never formally registered as an engineer. But he's the kind of person I would regard as an engineer. It doesn't matter. He was a man who was the hired consultant hired by American penitentiies as a consultant on execution technology. He gave opinions on gas chambers. He gave opinions on electric chairs. He gave opinions on gallows and he made them conform with health and safety standards if you can have such a

thing As a health and safety standard when you're stepping into a gas chamber. He was the expert and quite rightly the defense team for the Erns case in Toronto decided to pick an expert in execution technology to give an expert opinion on Nazi gas chambers. And it was a minefield that opened Pandora's box because Fred Loyster was totally apolitical. He had not the slightest interest in politics. He wasn't an extremist. His most most extreme action In life, I think, was opening a paper bag full of of potato chips. That was about as extreme as he

got. But he he warmed to the idea of going to Poland and visiting the campsites. He wanted to see these things for himself. Fred Loyster flew to Avitz in February 1988, two months before I saw his report. And he took with him his young bride. Um and in fact the visit to the Ashvitz concentration camp ruins was their honeymoon which shows how unusual It was. And for the next two or three days after his arrival in the Ashvitz site near Krakow in Poland, Fred Loyster burrowed around in that uh rather gloomy and sinister environment with

a bucket and spade and took 38 samples. I think it was 38, it may have been 37 samples out of the brick work, out of the fabric of those gas chambers in Ashwitz which are shown to the tourists. It was I suppose a blasphemous thing to do. It was heresy. It was treading on graves. Not the kind of thing that a nice guy would do. But he brought back those 38 samples wrapped in vinyl plastic bags. And from that point on, he had nothing more to do with it. He sent them or the defense team

sent them to a reliable professional laboratory in Cornell, Cornell University in New England in Ithaca. And it was the job of this laboratory to carry out the tests and to examine these samples of the brick work and mortar and cement to see if there Was any trace of hydrogen cyanide poison in the remains. Now, you might think, hey, 50 years have passed or in that time was 40 years, 45 years have passed. You're not going to find anything, are you? that it's been washed out by the wind and rain. Well, the answer is yes, you

will find something because hydrogen cyanide when it comes in contact with brick work, the the iron content in brick forms a very very permanent compound indeed. Feric ferocyanide, Otherwise known as Prussian blue, it's so so so permanent. It's a duff, a blue dough. And if you go to Awitz and have a look at the building which was acknowledged by all sides as being the fumigation chamber for fumigating clothing, you can see the blue poison gas has seeped out of the fumigation chamber through the cracks in the brick work and has stained the outside of the

building this solid dark blue color. So it it you expect to find it after 40 45 Years. The problem was the laboratory that carried out the tests on these 3738 samples found no significant trace of cyanide in the so-called homicidal gas chambers at all. Allegedly a million people have been gassed in these buildings and yet there was no trace of the cyanide in them. So imagine me a student of Imperial College of Science in in London. I'd studied enough quantitative and Qualitative uh chemistry to know that you can get to within six decimal points a

good. It's an exact science. Let's put it like that. Unlike writing history, chemistry is an exact science. If a laboratory says there's no trace, then there's no trace. They said they found s significant traces of cyanide in the brick work taken from the fumigation chamber, the blue the blue walls, nothing at all of any significance in the so-called homicidal gas chambers. For me that was a tilting point. I was no longer conformist. I became a deviationist, a revisionist, a real historian. I stuck my neck out. I wasn't questioned on this in the witness box because

the judge in the Erns Zundrell case in Toronto decided not to allow the Lyster report as in as evidence because Loyster was not a qualified toxicologist and all the things that a court would want. But the Loyster report has been out there ever Since. It is a significant document and you can see how significant it is from the fact that the enemy, the conformist historians and the Jewish community went to extraordinary lengths to smear Fred Loyster. From that moment on, this poor inoffensive young man with the receding forehead and the receding chin, the man who

had taken no interest at all in politics was thrown cast out onto the scrap heap. He ended up selling mashes on street corners. He ended up in in Fear of his life. his name vilified around the world by the very powerful organizations with a vested interest in perpetuating the Holocaust history. I for my part was a man they could not so easily dismiss because I didn't come from nowhere and go to nowhere in the way that Fred Loyster did to use the words of the the film Mr. Death. I came with a reputation as a

as a historian. I had 30 solid books behind me very widely reviewed and well reviewed by the World's press. So they couldn't dismiss me so easily when I said in the witness box as I did that I'd seen no evidence that Adolf Hitler had ordered the gassing or liquidation of the world's Jews, Germany's Jews, Europe's Jews. So they had to use a different attack with me. They attacked my publishers. They attacked the newspapers who supported me and so on. But the Fred Loyster report was, I think, the solid Ground on which I based my skepticism.

And I'm quite happy to say that I think Fred Loyster did a good job. The fact that he's not an engineer is neither here nor there. What kind of engineering skill did you need to scrape these samples out of the brick work of that building? He brought them back to the United States and he did the tests and the tests were carried out by qualified forensic chemists. So that's what we know about Fred Loa. What do we know About those buildings? Well, if you go to Awitz now, the first thing you notice is it is

marketed. It's marketed in the way, I suppose I could be quite tasteless and say it's marketed in the way that that Disney markets Disneyland. There's a hot dog stand in the car park, which should tell you something about the buildings you're going to be visiting. It's they're built they're they're built in the war years and pre-war years for the Nazi purposes, But now they're they are being preserved for the purpose purely of making money. They are a tourist attraction. They show you a gas chamber in the Avitz camp which is as genuine as the fairy

castle is in Disneyland. In fact, it was built after the war. Built three years after the war was over, 1948. If you go there now, thanks to us, the deviationists, the revisionists, the real historians, you'll find that the Polish authorities Has now finally been forced to put in an inscription outside the gas chamber which says, "Oh, by the way," in very small print, "By the way, this building was erected in 1948 as a replica." Well, you can call it a replica. I call it a fake. If I give you a replica $20 bill, it's a

fake $20 bill, and no one's going to be going to be tricked into using it without breaking the law. But this building is a fake. When I found out it was a fake, built in 1948, Back 1988, 1989, I started saying so quite loudly. I suppose in retrospect, I should regret it. Being a qualified and and competent speaker. There's no point just saying it's a fake. You then have to embed the sentence in in memorable phrase. I remember the phrase I used to use going around Canada and speaking was the building they showed the tourists

in Awitz is a fake built in 1948. more people died. More women died on the back seat of Senator Edward Kennedy's car Chapit than ever died in that building. Very tasteless, but you got to be tasteless to make a point. And the point was remembered and well taken. And the my opponents have never forgiven me for making the point so well. How many people did actually die on Ashvitz? It's a very interesting question. The figure has ballooned. It's rather like the the question, the similar question. How many how many Russians died in World War II?

You ask any German now, they Say, "Oh, 20 million." Was it? Some people would say 40 million Russians died in World War II because President Vitzker said 40 million Russians died in World War II. But the usual figure is 20 million. The actual figure is less than 5 million. How do we know that? Well, if you go to the British archives, there is the private record taken by the interpreter of a meeting between Joseph Stalin, the Russian dictator, and Winston Churchill On July the 19th, 1945 when they met in Potam. And they're talking in private

over dinner about who should get what in the dismemberment of Germany. And each side is boasting about the damages they suffered. and Stalin says to Churchill, "We're entitled to far more because you got to realize that we lost in the Soviet Union many, many lives. Nearly 5 million Russians are dead or missing." He would have had no reason to minimize if he would have heard every reason to Exaggerate the figure. And he said 5 million. But you see how it's ballooned since then. 5 million to 20 million to 40 million. And it's exactly the same

with the Holocaust figures. How many died in the Holocaust? I hate that word holocaust. It's I mean you're falling for their their salesmanship when you use the word. Well, the answer is a lot. How many died in Ashvitz? I think the best figure you can get as an estimate of Avitz is the figure given by The Polish authorities. The polls you see in Krakow in 1947 put on trial all the Achvitz top top dogs. All the top brass of Ashvitz. Rudolfph Hurst the commandant Almire his deputy Lieieber the successor of Rudolfph Hurst and the rest

they 22 of them were put on trial in in Krakow a lot of them were were sentenced to death and there is a video showing the actual judgment being handed down on them the judgment was handed down and in the judgment it says these People who are guilty today have been the principal officers of a camp Awitz in which up to 300,000 people of all nationalities met their deaths, came to an end. Doesn't say they were killed, doesn't say they were gassed, just says they died up to 300,000. Now these, you got to realize this

was the Polish courtroom which had all the the Avitz documents and all the Avitz prisoners to interrogate. And the figure they used in Their judgment as they sentenced these men to death was up to 300,000. So how suddenly did the figure balloon to 4 million on the memorial in Ashvitz in the 1970s and 1980s? The communist director, the Jewish director of the Ashwit State Museum, Frantichek Piper, he eventually had that figure chiseled down and and a new monument erected to the 1.2 million killed. You know, it's rather like Monopoly, the Monopoly money, the way They

play around with these figures. I'm sorry for any individual innocent person who is killed in war or out of war. That is the real crime in my mind. The real crime really isn't genocide, which is this invented word used by our opponents. The real crime is what I call innocentide, the killing of innocent people. The crime, it's a crime because the victims are innocent, not because they were Jewish innocent people. You see the difference? Of course, but but but once he starts talking about in innocent people being killed being the crime, the disadvantage for our

opponents is that then suddenly all the global sympathy and treasure, the money becomes entitled to a larger number of people who are not Jews. Um the victims of Hiroshima, the victims, the bombing victims of of Coventry or Dresdon, they could start out the the Australians who suffered in the Japanese prison Camps, they could start claiming compensation. And so they don't talk about the innocent people being the victims. They talk about genocide. People who are killed by virtue of race and that's not not the real crime in my mind. So in Awitz probably up to up

to 300,000 people died and I think that's a reasonable figure from the papers that I've read and you notice the word died. What did they die from? Let's be quite Plain. Some were gassed. Almire Almire who was the deputy commandant of Avitz for several several for nearly a year 1942 1943 he was taken prisoner by the British in Norway at the end of the war and he was questioned extensively and he was invited to sit down with a pencil in hand and write down all that he knew none of the famous Holocaust historians bothered to

look at Almire's uh writings his manuscripts I found them myself in 1992 in the British public record office Nobody had bothered to book there. I immediately tipped off Robert Jan Vanpelt who is the world's global most famous Holocaust historian. I tipped off Deborah Lipstat. I tipped off Martin Gilbert. I tipped off all the Holocaust historians and said I found the private papers of of Almire, the deputy commander of Ashvitz, including all his manuscript memoirs of of life in Ashitz and what he did as commandant. They never bothered to go and have a look. Doesn't that

tell us something about the quality of these so-called historians? So, what does Almaya tell us? He tells us that when the train loads began arriving in mid1 1942 from all over Europe, Jews deported to Ashwitz as slave labor, he found a lot of the Jews couldn't be used. They were medically unfit. They were too old, too frail, too decrepit. And he said, "When these trainers arrived, we selected those who were too frail to work and we took them Around the back and disposed of them in two houses, two little cottages, one called the White House

and one called the Red House. go to Ashwitz now as a tourist and ask the guides to show you the remains of the red house and the white house. They will very reluctantly, and I stress the word reluctantly, take you to have a look. But you really got to lean on them because they don't want you to see these. They want to take you to the huge crerematoria buildings that They say were the gas chambers, the ones that Fred Loyster examined and found no trace of cyanide in because you start coming against leg coming up

against logistics problems when you look at the remains of the little cottages. First of all, one cottage is nothing to be seen. The whole site's been grasped over the other site. You can actually see the layout. You can see the foundations of the White House. The White House consists of two big rooms about the size Of this study here. Uh and in that White House, Almire, the deputy command, says we could sometimes put as many as two pe 200 people and we gassed them. From his writings, it doesn't appear to been a very frequent operation.

He says it was just from now and again when train loads came and they had unusable Jews aboard. So these gassings did occur. If you accept that these papers aren't fake, and I don't believe for a moment they are fake, the gassings did Occur in our race, but are nothing like the scale which is part of the legend. Now, the mass marketing of scale that is was designed in that Madison Avenue meeting back in the early 1970s. It's got to be unique. It's got to be bigger than anybody else's and then you can make big

billions out of it. So, is David Irving a Holocaust denier? I don't think so. because we now start looking totally elsewhere in Poland. We're looking no longer in Avitz at this Disneyland site in in southern Poland. We're looking on in eastern Poland along the riverbug. In eastern Poland, there are three or four sites which you can collectively describe either as the Boo River camps or as the Operation Reinhardt camps. Some of the conformance historians say, "Oh yes, the Reinhardt camps were named after Reinhard Hydrish who was assassinated in May 1942." It's not. They they were

Named after a civil servant called Fritz Reinhard. And he spells his name with a T at the end, Hard Dt. Fritz Reinhardt was a civil servant, a state secretary in the finance ministry in Germany. And that gives you a clue as to what the operation was. It was a thieving operation, a looting operation. The Jews were being sent to these camps and before they were being liquidated, they were being robbed of everything they had. It was a plundering operation. And here is where I say I have to cross swords with the the main revisionist body.

They don't want to believe the Reinhardt camps exist. I think the Reinhardt camps did exist. And I'm going to set out here very briefly the evidence for the Reinhardt camps having existed. I'll tell you the names first. There was Delich, Sovia, and Trebinka. And on top of that came the camp called Maidanic. You can go and visit all these camps in Poland now. But the reason they're not on the tourist route is because there's nothing to see. There's no buildings you can see, no execution walls, no buildings described as crerematoria or gas chambers. There's just

bald patches in the middle of a forest in each place. And I to me that is far more evocative, far more lonely and sinister when you go into the middle of this forest and suddenly there's a one or two kilome square bald patch where nothing seems to Have happened. Until you find, for example, at Trebinka, there's a letter in the private papers of Hinri Himmler who says, "When the operation in Trebinka is finished, I want the whole site demolished and removed. Nothing must remain. I want the whole side grasped over and a farmhouse, a farmstead

built there in his place which can be given to some Ukrainian to run. If you really know how to look at the private papers of Henry Himler, the Chief of the SS, you begin stumbling across documents that have been clearly written as part of a of a cover up. September 1942, he writes a letter to the chief of the Gustapo, saying, "There's this very disturbing report in the London Daily Telegraph, which has come to my hands, which says, "The Jews are dying like flies in our camps. I want you to investigate this and find out

just what is going on." And you look at that document and you Think, "What is going on?" What is then you realize something that Hugh Roer, the famous British historian, told me many years ago in the 1960s. He said, "David, when you look at a new document, think ask yourself three questions. Is it genuine? Who wrote it? Is it written by somebody who is in a position to know? And thirdly, why does this document exist?" And I know what he means. The Germans were in a habit of writing what they Call deongen, cover up letters,

letters that would exonerate them in the case that things went wrong, alibis. And that letter from Hinri Himler, the chief of of the Gustavo Hinrich Müller, the letter from Himler to Müller is a cover up letter. Well, I want you to find out what's going on. So, I'm told the Jews are dying like flies. And then in the autumn of 1944, he writes to uh Dr. Gravitz, who's one of the head doctors of the SS, Chief of the SS, chief surgeon of the SS, and he says, "Dr. Gravitz a fascinating report you've written on the

incidence of of illnesses in the concentration camps. He says one very odd thing strikes me. This is Himler to Gravitz. One very odd thing strikes me. He says there appears to be nobody dying of cancer in the concentration camps. Can you explain this? Is there some statistical reason for this? Can it be that we have inadvertently stumbled Across a cure for cancer? Oh ho, it's an it's a little private joke between the two of them. They know what's happening. why people aren't dying of cancer in the concentration camps. It's the same reason that people don't

die of heart disease in France because they've died of cerosis of the liver. It's a statistical anom anomaly in the concentration camps. They've died for a totally different reason. So you begin looking at him documents and Wondering to yourself is this a genuine document or not? And then when you travel around the world as I have, you come across documents for which there's no other explanation. They are genuine. In the Hoover archives at Stanford University in California, where they have part of him's private papers, I came across two documents that have been sent to him.

There are reports on the loot which has been yielded by Operation Reinhard. Operation Reinhard, the operations in the Bug River camps. And it makes very grizzly reading. The two documents list all the watches and fountain pens and gold coins and everything that have been taken off the people passing through Operation Reinhardt. And you've got the report for 1942 and you got the report for 1943. Very interesting because it gives you a pretty clear idea of people who no longer need their wristwatches and Fountain pens and gold coins. something is happening to them and all the

valuables are being channeled back to Berlin for reprocessing and furbishing and overhauling and being put back on the market as part of a major systematic industrialized looting operation. What is significant about these figures is as I mentioned you got the figures for 1942 and you got the figures for 1943. Now, for 1942, we've got a totally Different set of figures in a document that I'm going to call the Hurler document. In January 1943, at the end of that year, uh Hler, who's a police officer in Lublin, writes a report to Berlin saying the proceeds of

the operations in 1942 are as follows. And he gives the most incredible breakdown of operations in three camps, which he identifies as T, S, and B. And he gives the total figure for the numbers we processed in each of those camps. And the overall figure for all these camps together up to the last year of 1942 is 1.24 million Jews. Now the Hurler document of course is very significant. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to guess that TSNB are Trebinka, Subore, and Belich, three of these camps. You don't have to be a rocket

scientist to guess what is happening to them in those camps. They're not being processed through them. They're being dealt with in them. So you've got a figure for 1942 of 1.24 million. But remember, we've also got the corresponding figure of the loot taken off them for 1942. We don't have a processing figure for 1943, but we do have the loot figure for 1943. And so you can probably extrapolate to a reasonable kind of ballpark figure for 1943 too and say It's probably another million. So suddenly for those two years, Operation Reinhardt has generated 2.2 million

people or more. Now for a revisionist, this is difficult stuff to swallow and you're going to have to go back to the Hurler document and ask yourself the allimp important question that Trevor Oper said. Question one, is it genuine or not? Well, you can go to the public record Office in London, as I still call it, and you can look at the actual document. It was decoded by the British a few days later. We intercepted the wireless transmission. The Germans, for some reason, sent these messages by radio and not by landline. We intercepted it, we

decoded it, and it's in the British files. It's found there by a couple of independent amateur British historians. Steve Tyus is one of them, and he deserves credit for finding this and Making it available. The difficulty is the document contains anomalies. First of all, let me say that I'm 80% sure the document is genuine, the Hler document, but there's a 20% nagging residual doubt. This document contains anomalies. First of all, it and the corresponding document that goes with it are addressed to Adolf Aishman. Now Adolf Iikman is the big name and one thing I spotted

about fake documents Like the Kuya documents, the Adolf Hitler documents and so on is that they tend to be documents written about big names or by big names or to big names because that's the kind of document that document collectors pay big money for. So it's a big name document. The next thing is the wording contained in the document does not conform with German civil service standards which were very strictly adhered to. It just says referring to your message. Uh the answer Is as follows. German civil service require would require that document to say referring

to your message register number so and so 1 2 345 dated January the 10th 1943. The answer is as follows. But there is neither a register number or a date in the document. Also, the document has got the highest possible security classification and is only one of three documents in all the hundreds of thousands of decodes that I've read that has that top secret Classification. So, we got those minor problems dealing with another very slightly lesser problem is that the totals don't add up. There's a digit wrong. So, you got a slightly awkward problem. Then

you're left with the nagging suspicion that is it a coincidence that that sevendigit figure it gives as the grand total is identical to the grand total given on a document called the core document. Richard Corair Hinria's chief statistician at the same Time ordered to draw up an overall 10-year report on the final solution of the Jewish problem. He sits down and he writes a report in which he he says what has happened to all the Jews ever since the Nazis came to power. There were 17 million Jews in the world. 10 million of them in

Europe. He says, "Of these 10 million, there are still about 4 million left here. The rest have immigrated or of natural wastage. The the older ones have stayed behind and died. The younger Immigrated and so on." And then he goes on to say 1.24 million Jews, however, uh were sent to the camps in occupied Poland where they have been sub subjected to special treatment. Well, you don't have to be rocket scientist to guess what that word means. And Himmler didn't like it. Himmler wrote back to Corair the statistician at the time and I I was

the one who found these letters and Himmler says Corair excellent report well written a bit too Long though you got to remember this report is going to be shown to Adolf Hitler the furer I want you to write a short version oh and that sentence where you say the 1.24 million was subjected to special treatment I want you to reward that the 1.24 24 million were sent through camps in occupied Poland to the east. Somebody's having the woolpool over their eyes. But the significant thing is That figure is identical to the one in the Hera

document. Bit bit of a coincidence. Was the Hurler document based on the Koa document? Perhaps was the Koha document based on the Hura document. Is one or the other a fake? The Ko document incidentally makes no mention of Ashvitz. Here he is a statistician writing what happened to all the Jews and yet Avitz doesn't actually figure well if four million Jews are supposed To have died there or been killed there in gas chambers that's a rather significant omission. If you really do your homework as a historian you're left with these awkward problems. So what do

I as a real historian after 30 or 40 years work fearlessly believe at this stage? I believe the gassings did take place, but the whole thing was an ad hoc operation in these various camps designed and devised by the local commanders except for the three Reinhardt camps which were built as extermination centers. No denying that. And it's a pity that the Jewish communities around the world have concentrated or latched onto Ashvitz as their Disneyland because the real operations were done further east. Not much money to be made there. Difficult to get to and nothing to

show the tourists unless there are tourists who are romantic and can hear the sigh of the the deceased and departed uh in the Wind that blows through the pine forests. I'm not a romantic person. I like to see the documents. I like to see the evidence. I can't be intimidated either by publishers or by newspapers or by journalists or by thugs with baseball bats. They've tried everything and I still write what I find in the archives. But I I do get good luck. 1991 about three years after I first saw the Liter report, I went

to Buenosarees to speak To audiences in Buenosares in Spanish of course and at the end of one of these meetings um a man came up to me with a brown paper parcel and he handed it to me. He said, "Mr. Irving, I think you are the right person to have these." He was a man of Flemish origin. He lived in Buenosares and he was close to a friend of Adolf Iikman. Adolf I Aishman had been captured in Buenosares in 1960 by the Israeli commandos and taken to Israel and put on trial and hanged. I Think

he was a small cog. Frankly, I don't think he's very important man. But his family worried that these Israeli commandos would raid his house next because he was kidnapped in the street. Decided overnight to put all his private papers in the hands of a friend of the family. This friend of the family gave them to my man in Buenosarees who now handed this brown paper parcel to me. I took it back to England and a few weeks passed before I actually opened it and Began reading what Iman had been writing. He had begun at about

1956 in captivity writing his own memoirs, putting things down on paper, getting things straight in his own mind. He knew that there was an international human and cry now and he began writing his own memoirs down repeating himself many, many times over. You can see the tendency to alibi beginning in it. He begins he more than once he says I remember back in 1941 when when Reinhard Hydrish the chief of the Rice heights the right homeland security agency so we say Reinhard Hydrish came to me and said that Himler has told me that the furer

has reached the decision that the Jews had to be physically annihilated. People point that to me and say there you are David that's the evidence you're wrong Hitler was involved. I don't think so. I've got evidence there only of of of Adolf Iikman being involved and of Adolf Iikman sitting down in the 1950s Realizing that the day is going to come when he does have his day in court and the only thing that will get him off the hook as if he says I was carrying out Hitler's orders. That's the way the human mind works.

I'm not saying he consciously did it. It's more likely that the hydrish came to him one day and said the furer Adolf Hitler has ordered he wants the Jews all out of Europe and from that had then developed the the more radical version. Clearly such an order existed you would expect to find it on paper. You would expect the British to have decoded it somewhere. You would expect somebody to written a letter home to their mother saying uh dear mommy I have today had to transmit the most terrible order to the SS Griffin on the

Eastern Front. This kind of thing. And after 60 years, we're entitled to expect such an order to come. As you probably know, for six for ever since my book on Adolf Hitler, Hitler's war was published in 1977. For 42 years now, 32 years now, I've offered a,000 reward for anybody who can find one wartime document showing that Adolf Hitler even knew about Avitz, let alone gave orders for the killing of the Jews. The only documents you gradually find run the other way. We find that on the day that Awitz was overrun by the Russian army,

the Red Army in January 1945, the chief of the German general of staff, General Guderion comes to Hitler and says at the war conference, which is written down by shorthand writers, yesterday the Red Army overran Awitz Manfura and Hitler a few seconds later saying, well, what does he say? Does he say, "Oh my god, I hope we managed to destroy everything before the Russians find it." So they got no trace of what we've been up to. No, he just says, "Okay, yav means nothing to him." It's the same if you look at all the documents,

if you follow the the methods that I used when I wrote my Hitler biography. I picked only genuine documents, ones that I was pretty satisfied that were genuine. At that time, we didn't have any of the decodes. Of course, I picked documents that had been on Hitler's desk, documents of which he was aware. I had a pretty strict criterion I applied. And you get a very different picture then. You get a Picture then of Adolf Hitler putting out his hand and protecting the Jews every time there was any risk of any harm being done to

them. It's very unusual picture. And for a long time I was way out alone on on a short plank uh in my my opinion that Adolf Hitler was not an anti-semite during the war years. But I'm glad to see now that an Austrian professor who's probably risking her own liberty in saying this, a professor at the University of Vienna, Brietta Hammon, has published a book called Hitler in Vienna in which she comes to exactly the same opinion that during World War II after he came to power, Adolf Hitler was not an anti-semite, not anti-Jewish. Okay,

he made these speeches. I've got them on the wall here. There is one of the most the most famous speeches of Adolf Hitler. prophetic warning to the the world's Jews. This is the famous speech of January the 30th, 1939. I've had it on my wall ever since Henry deer gave me these copies of the Nazi newspaper. But if you open that page, you take it out of its frame and you open the newspaper up, you find the actual speech is six pages long and the reference to the Jews is only three or four lines long.

That's what his interest was. But it was the Nazis who were with him. Rosenberg and Borman and Himmler and and and the others Alorman from the top dogs Down to the junior ones. They were the ones who wanted to carry out the campaign to its murderous conclusion. Alo Hitler was more interested in winning the war. We got episodes of this throughout the war years. A famous episode November the 30th, 1941. He found out that a train load of Jews was leaving Berlin and heading to heading to Ria on the eastern on the eastern territories newly

newly occupied and Himmler came to him and said why Don't we just liquidate them we can't house them and and and Hitler says that out of the question and Himmler had to telephone Hydrish we got his own handwritten telephone notes saying kind of liquid not to be liquidated and it was too late they were already dead they were already lying face down dead sardine fashion in pits all machine gunned to death. 1,000 Berlin Jews that morning in the pits outside Ria along with 4,000 local Jews From Ria who' been swept up in a liquidation action

by SS Gordon Fur Yak who is the chief of the SS and police in in Ria on that day. And the interesting thing now is that we have the intercepted messages that passed between Himmler and Yak on that very day. That morning, Yakon sent him a message which we intercepted and decoded saying here Fura, can you get for me 12 more of those fantastic Finnishmade Tommy guns, the ones with the with the drum Magazines because they're ideal for our Zonda auction and our special operations, meaning the killing operations, you know, like like James Kagny, you

know, in the movies, the Tommy guns with the with the with the drum magazines and the swirly magazine Tommy gun was ideal for the killing operations and Jakon sends his message to him. The message which Yep gets back that evening is anything but what he expected. Himler Says the operation you carried out in WA grossly violates the guidelines laid down by me and Hydrri. Any such further excesses will be ruthlessly punished. You are to report the headquarters. He's referring to the killing of the Berlin Jews and and and the local Jews. It's very it's not

the picture you get you see when you read the books by Martin Gilbert and the others. Something is going wrong. Something is very haphazard on the Eastern front. And later that Evening a few minutes later Grochman Himmler's chief agitant sends a message to the same SS general at Ria saying you ought to inform us how you're arriving so we can have you met and from him's diary we see that Yako and K to see him on December the 4th and they had supper together and talked about Uden Frager the Jewish problem that's real history that's

what I call real history and you get the image that something is going wrong something is not wanted by Hitler's headquarters and in fact on that very day November the 30th there's a German army colonel who hears what's happening to the Jews outside the town and he's lost all his Jews that day and he's wondering where his Jewish workers have gone. The local SS guy says, "Well, if you want to know what's happening to your Jewish friends, you better drive out town down the road to to Dunberg to Advink about 8 kilometers and you'll see

what's happening to your lovely Jews." And the colonel he describes in April 1945 to a prisoner in a British prison camp here near here in Latimer. And he says, "So I drove down the road and there was this open field and three two or three pits had been dug out and truckloads of Jews were being driven up and made to lie down in the pits sardine fashion and they were being machine gun to death by these men standing on the rim." And a fellow prisoner says, "But Geral," cuz he's a general now, what Were the

gunners saying? Were they saying anything when they were doing this? Oh yes, all these coarse remarks, these coarse shouts are going. I remember one of them shouting, "Look at that one. Look at that beauty." And I can see her in my mind's eye now, a beautiful girl in a flame red dress. And that's that day, November the 30th, 1941. And he says, we we discussed it among ourselves, army officers. Somebody had to tell the furer, Adolf Hitler what Was going on. None of us wanted to be the one. So we sent for a lieutenant and

told him to come out later that day, see what was going on, and write a report. And we sent his report up to Hitler's headquarters. And that evening the order came that this kind of shooting had to stop immediately forth with from Hitler's headquarters. You won't find that in the books by Martin Gilbert either because they can't fit it in. They can't fit any of these documents In. In the spring of 1942 after the Van Conference where they discussed the logistics, the transportation movements of the Hitler's order that all the Jews had to be thrown

out of out of Germany and shipped to the east. This was Hitler's order quite without without question in in January 19 January the 20th 1942 this conference had taken place at Von and a month later another conference took place and the report on that was circulated among the Ministers and you can you can see a reference to it in Gobles's diary he says well obviously not much is going to remain of the Jews when all this operation is over he says you can say that probably 80% of them are going to be wiped out and

20% will be put to work that's what he writes in his diary but number of other ministers are worried about that. The minister of justice Schlaggelberger who's standing in for Gner who died Schlaggelberger writes a memorandum a letter to the chief of the civil service Dr. lamas and he says what's going on here he says I can see that if we go on down this down this particular road uh the fur adolf Hitler may find himself rushed in stampeded into decisions that we'll later regret lamus writes back to him saying I think you're right I've

come to Berlin at the end of this month March 1942 and we'll have talk about it you and me that we got these letters These letters actually exist and lame came to seeelberger the minister of justice who's a lawyer of And the lawyer Schlieggoberger sits down and he writes a memorandum which I can quote you verbatim because I've read it so often in German. Right minister Dr. Lamas me right minister Dr. Lamus has informed me that the furer that's Adolf Hitler has repeatedly ordained that he wants the solution of the Jewish problem Postponed until after

the war is over. We got that actual memorandum. It vanished in Nuremberg. You couldn't find it because the American lawyers in Nuremberg, I know who it was, actually destroyed the the negative photocopy they've made. It vanished from the file because they can't they can't use a document like that showing Hitler saying nothing must happen. I want everything left until the war is over. Typical Hitler procrastinator, but also he Wanted to win the war first. He said, "Let's win this war first. We're in difficulty on the Eastern front. We don't need all your problems. Let's win

the war first. Then we can deal with the churches and the Jews and all the other little subsidiary problems that are fascinating and obsessing you guys." typical Hitler. But the Holocaust historians like Longerish or Martin Gilbert or Robert Jan Vanpelt, to them this is a square document and they can't Ram it into their own round Holocaust hole. And so what do they do? They toss it under the table and hope nobody will find it. And along comes this dreadful David Irving and found the document and says, "How do you explain this then? How do you

square this with your theories? Arrest that man. He's a fascist. He's a Holocaust denier. Ruin him. smash him. And that's that was their answer, of course. But the document is still there in the archives. We found the actual Document now. It's in the German government archives. Hitler ordering the solution to the Jewish problem, the Holocaust, whatever the others were asking for. Hold it off, fellas, until this war is finished. It's there in black and white, written by a lawyer. Lawyers know how to write documents. They write very, very precise. Here's here's Let's I'm going to

bore you by staying with this document for a minute or two. All the rest is pure guff. uh Longerish and the other historians who who who waffled on about Hitler and the final solution and Himmler, they come up with their theories and then admit, well, I've got no documents that that support my my theories. But here I come to them with a document, a wartime document, a genuine document written by somebody who knows, written by the chief of the Ministry of Justice based on a conversation with the head of the civil service who's been close

to Hitler. They're talking about Hitler. They're talking about the final solution of the Jewish problem. They're talking about dates and decisions. And yet, you won't find this document mentioned in a single book written by these conformist historians. It reminds you of another document. The night of broken glass, 1938, when Gobbles, the evil genius behind Hitler's bench. Gobles has ordered all the synagogues burned down and attacked and all the Jews rounded up And and harassed and molested and and and terrorized because a German diplomat has been assassinated by a Jewish lunatic in Paris. Gerbles had ordered

this outrage during the night. This pogram as the Russians would have called it and Hitler is totally in the dark. Hitler's private staff they said to me Irving, we were with uh the furer, the chief all of Hitler that night in Munich. We were in our apartment and beneath his we got word from the hotel, The prince regent strasa uh the four seasons hotel to come immediately and get our baggage because a synagogue was on fire next door to the hotel risking the hotel. And we went upstairs and told the chief and Hitler said, "What

what's going on then? Find out." And he sent for Gerbles and he sent for Himler, the chief of the SS. And he was furious. He was livid with rage. And all night long, he orders Gerbles and the others to issue orders to stop this madness. And In the archives, I found one of these orders signed by the deputy by the office of Hitler's deputy, Rudolph Hess, sent out by his office. uh 10:00 uh 10th of November 1938 sent out at 2:58 in the morning nearly 3:00 a.m. Again, it's only two or three lines long. It

says on orders from the very highest level. If you're the deputy to Hitler and you say this is orders from the highest level, this is the guy above you, Adolf Hitler himself. On orders from the very highest Level, there are to be no arson acts of arsenal outragees against Jewish property on any circumstance under under any circumstances whatsoever. And I remember reading this to an audience in the University of Bon many many years ago. 400 students packed into the main the auditorium maximum at the University of Bon. All the academics sitting in the front row,

the professors and all the communists and reds sitting in the back waiting to cause an uproar And a tumult. And I pride myself that I can win an audience in a couple of minutes. And I started off with that document. I read this out to you and I said, I'm going to read out a document to you that you have never ever heard of before. And I read out those two lines. the night of broken glass. An absolute silence, a total hush fell on the auditorium. And I said, "Now you're going to have to ask

yourselves, ladies and gentlemen, here in the auditorium, Why I am coming to you as an English writer and telling you of this document that has existed for 40 years and you have never been told of, although you are studying third history. There's only two possible explanations. either that your academics sitting here in the front row knew about this document and decided not to tell you about it or they didn't know about this document and they were ignorant in which case they don't deserve to be teaching you in the first Place and the auditorium erupted in

applause of course now you begin to understand why I'm banned from German soil or I've not been invited to speak at universities recently it's because I come with the harsh facts based on what I find in the archives I'm not going to bore you with all the other documents but there's a string a chain of documents that I put before the court in the Lipstat trial They show Adolf Hitler trying to stop Ugly things happening to the Jews again and again like that November the 30th 1941 episode in Ria with the Berlin Jews. In 1943,

October 1943, uh the the German diplomat in Rome, which has just been occupied by the Nazis, the German diplomat in Rome sends a message to the German foreign ministry saying, "The SS chief here in Rome has told me that he's received orders to round out the 12,000 Jews in Rome and send them to Northern Italy where they are to be liquidated." He uses the word liquidated. You don't have to kind of decode euphemisms, right? >> And then again in October 1943, we have exactly the same kind of episode. On October the 4th, 1943, the diplomat

in the German diplomat in Rome, which had just been occupied, Italy had just been occupied by the Nazis. The German diplomat in Rome sent a telegram to the foreign ministry in Berlin saying he'd just been told by the SS chief in Rome that he had received orders to round up the 12,000 Jews in Rome and ship them to northern Italy where they were to be liquidated. And he uses the word liquidated. No, no euphemisms there. Ribbonrop, who is the German foreign ministry, goes to see Hitler that same two days later. I know this because I've

got the actual visitor the guest register of AL of Hitler's headquarters and that shows Ribbonrop visiting Hitler and later that Day Ribbonrop sends a message back to the German consul in Rome saying the furer has ordered that the Jews of Rome are to be sent to to Avitz and to be kept alive. Um so here again allini saying not to be liquidated kept alive as hostages kept as pawns and um you you would don't find these documents quoted anywhere. I brought this up in the lipstat trial immediately of course to conformist historians. They become contortionist

historians. They go into contortions then to try to explain that that document meant everything else but what it actually said on the face of it. I remember questioning the chief expert witness in the Libat trial about the one I mentioned just now about the night of broken glass. I said, "Here you've got a two-line document showing quite clearly Hitler intervening on the highest orders to stop the outrages. How do you explain That?" He said, "Oh, I read this document totally differently. I read this as Hitler saying,"Well, go ahead, fellas. Carry on brutalizing and bashing up

the Jews and throwing them into concentration camps and murdering them and burning down the synagogues, but watch out for the property that's next door to German property in case you damage the German property." I remember saying to him, "Professor, Professor Evans, Professor Evans, you read all that into those two lines, do you?" Heavy sarcasm. Of course, none of it worked because at the end of the day, the judge should have just did this um in in in the Lipstar trial. So, you get this picture of a not an actually benevolent alloy of Hitler, but a

Hitler who couldn't really care about the Jewish problem in the war years. And I'm going to end on the very last Moment of course of Hitler's life when he took his own life on April the 30th, 1945. I remember speaking to his secretary Traunga. Traunga was his youngest and most beautiful secretary together with Ga Christian. Um he sent to Traunga in the bunker just after the wedding to Eva Brown and Fraunga said to me, she said, "Mr. ing after the waiting of Hitler and Eva Brown who is now Eva Hitler the chief sent for me

and he said Fayunga come into the adjoining room will you please and bring your shorthand pad and no sooner he closed the door than he immediately began dictating without any notes off the top of his head and I realized he was dictating his his his final testament his last will and testament his political testament and halfway down that political testament you come to a sentence which Has baffled historians from memory it's roughly he says I command my successor Admiral Dennis to carry on the remorseless fight against the Jews which we have carried on for the

last 12 12 years although we have used methods that are far more humane than have the enemy the allies with their ruthless bombing war against German civilians in the German cities. And it's the word humane that baffles People. They say how can Hitler say what he was doing to the Jews was humane? Well, just possibly he wasn't in the loop. just possibly Himmler was doing things that Hitler wasn't aware of. And this isn't just a weird theory because Himmler's chief of staff, General Carl Vulf, um he survived after the war a long time because he

had dealt with the allies and he had done a deal with the allies. He Wrote private memoirs which he deposited in the Institute of History in Munich on the condition they remained confidential and for many years they remained confidential but my historian friends there let me read them. And Vulv says, "I remember in August 1942 discussing with Hinrich Himmler, the chief of the SS, and he was particularly depressed and dejected, downcast." And I said, "Why are you depressed, chief?" And Himmler replied, "I am doing Something of which the Messiah of the coming 2,000 years must

never learn." And Carl goes on to say, "I didn't realize what he was talking about at the time, but now, of course, I do." This was right at the height of operation Reinhardt, the killing of the Jews in in the Bugara camps. And Himmler says, "I was doing something. I am doing something of which the messiah of the coming 2,000 years must never learn." And finally, other historians like Longerish are coming round to my viewpoint that probably hit Hitler himself is being kept deliberately out of the loop. Longerish writes in his uh latest Himmler biography,

I believe. I've only read the newspaper reviews. He says that if you read the Hinri Himler speeches carefully, you see that he's very careful not to claim that he's acting on orders from Hitler. And the language he uses leaves strongly the impression to The historian that in fact he was acting on his own. At one point in a speech in October 1943, Himla actually says, and I know a lot in a speech to SS generals, he says, I know a lot of you understand why we're killing the the Jews, but a lot of you don't

quite understand why we're also killing the women and children. And he says, I'm doing this. I've taken I have taken this decision myself because it will be wrong to leave generations Uh our coming generations to to deal with this problem all over again. So again he could so easily have said Hitler has taken his decision or the furer has taken his decision but he doesn't. He says I have taken this decision and again in that famous message to General Yakon at Ria he says you've exceeded the guidelines laid down by myself and by the rice

plant by Hydrich he doesn't say the guidelines laid down by Hitler. So in summary what do I believe happened? There are two kinds of killing of the Jews. So it was the killing of the Jews in in camps like Ashvitz where excess Jews were disposed of because they couldn't be put to work as slave labor on a very small scale on a comparatively small scale and there was a systematic mopping up of operations behind the eastern front in cities like Ria and Minsk. The Minsk was in White Russia. The governor of White Russia was Ilhome

Kuba. Kuba's son lives in Argentina. Now, his son recently sent me 200 negative photographs from his father's collection. I scanned these in very close detail, and I've enlarged one of the scans. One of the photographs shows just a huge heap of baggage. No, it's an empty street, a heap of about 200 suitcases and trunks piled up on the sidewalk beside the street. And If you zoom in on the labels of one of the bank, one of the one of the bags, you can see the name begins with Sarah. So it's probably a Jew. This was

typical of what happened in Minsk. The Jews were liquidated in Minsk as well. And I I think there's no question that the Jews in Minsk and Ria and other cities along the eastern front um particularly down the far south. They were rounded up and taken out into the outskirts out of sight and liquidated Systematically liquidated as part of the antipartisan operations preemptive killing. So this did happen. It happened on a huge scale. I think the Jews have made a big mistake in trying to sweep it all up into one concept, the Holocaust with a capital

H, and market that in the same way they would market headache tablets just to make money. It has, I think, debased the whole of this vast human tragedy. They should be looking really at other Issues. They should be asking themselves, can this happen again? Why did it happen in the first place? Why us? They never ask the why ask question because even posing the why ask question is considered to be anti-semitic. The suggestion that they themselves are partly to blame for their own tragedy. The architects of their own misfortune. I think these things should be

looked at closely. Nobody would want a tragedy like this to happen on this kind of Scale again. The whole German people now bearing the guilt for the crimes committed by a few people in their name. It may happen again of course because it has not been systematically and properly researched. It is wrong that historians who deviate from the official line should be penalized and criminalized and cast into prison for asking awkward questions. The questions remain and it is for us, the real historians of the world, to try and find the answers. Thank you for listening.