[Music] estere Perell welcome back to the show my pleasure to be here it's always great to see you in person or virtually it doesn't matter it's all good thank you same same for me I'm just curious what are the like non-negotiable practices for you that you need on a daily or daily is basis in order to you know keep your together and and and keep your life running meaning things that I do on a daily basis that I need to do because otherwise my life would be out of kilter um exactly it's a combination you
know of um doing good work having attending to my patients with uh with Integrity um attending to my team with Integrity I mean so there's a piece of it that is just showing up a non-negotiable is to show up where I am expected and to show up fully um to be giving um I think I have a non-negotiable around generosity and that means who who do I owe a call to who do I need to think about who I need to who do I need to check in with um that's a non-negotiable that involves my
family but not only it really extends uh Beyond and then a few things that I like to do for myself I wake up and I practice yoga almost every day um that is a rather strenuous yoga um but it is part of a group that is a community of friends and um that has become I won't say a non-negotiable but it has become such a cohesive force because it's been three and a half years since the beginning of the pandemic that uh that we gather every morning and honestly there are no other group of people
that I have touch points with four times a week there's nobody else that I know about how they are four times a week it's it's become the front and center of for each of us uh even though we are not all our close each other's close friends necessarily so it that that showing up at 8: a.m. is a is a non-negotiable let me go back to number one and obviously there's commonalities between the two showing up uh you you it seems to me that you if I'm hearing you correctly you think of showing up in
whatever context for your team for your patients for your family as a form of generosity as well yes because I want to be their present not just there but present I want to be focused I want to give my full attention I don't want a distraction which is very uncommon these days uh this are this is one of the last places that I have left where even though I used to say it's the last techn free environment that's no longer the case because I often do see patients on Zoom as well but um it's about
having I'm not multitasking I'm not thinking about anything else while I do this and this could be anything having to do with creating a course or doing a podcast episode where it's basically live therapy sessions that you listen in as a fly on the wall or seeing patients in My Own Private Practice um or working with the team it's it's it's really I find that one is so distracted these days it's so hard to keep focused to read a 100 pages in a book and not not you know lift your head as as I used
to do that that's what I call showing up and giving the best of what I can um and and because and not letting people down who have expectations or letting myself down of my own expectations all of that for me is showing up what are the biggest barriers to showing up for you if I'm preoccupied um you know but from covering a range of issues that make me anxious and that take me hostage and capture my attention away from where I am that is a barrier but interestingly it can also work the other way around
is that sometimes when I'm most preoccupied or anxious or even sad because something really sad has happened I find that those are the moments when I often work the best because if I manage to step outside of myself I feel like I'm in touch with something very raw um and of life and that I'm able to use that in my work with other people so it goes in both directions a certain level of reation obsessiveness linked to something that preoccupies me and has it's that powerful that it can take away my concentration that's a barrier
and yet you said that it's so interesting you said that that there are if I'm I'm hearing you correctly particularly particularly with sadness it can be the opposite of a distraction it can somehow get you out of your head and give you sort of fuel for showing up it's more that I feel like I'm in touch with something that you are trying to talk to me about and because I'm in touch with it I'm more able to respond with a different pitch um you know I it's a conversation I used to have with colleagues it's
like when something you know some some of us would say you know when I'm really in distress I can't work and I would say sometimes when I'm really in distress the thing that helps me the most is to work because it takes my attention outside of myself and I can focus on somebody else and probably on some level I so don't want to focus on myself that I'm even more focused on others and I have even more of an an openness um that is available to me so that's that's how I present it let me
try a theory with you it may be completely off I'll just I'll just float it um but you know after 9/11 and we've seen this after other major cataclysms globally people were raw in a way and in touch with the inherent precarity and impermanence and poignancy of Life facts that we tend to armor up against on in our daily lives but if we're shaken up enough we get back in touch with it and in those moments actually it is in some ways counterintuitively easier to be available and um um altruistic and compassionate empathic yes yeah
is that do that does that roughly describe what's what the mechanism is for you yes yes I have it now as well I mean I feel like I'm in touch with there's so such an A A dread a dread of instability you know this world is really in a very very shaky place and um I am experiencing a combination of sadness and fear and grief and compassion and longing and a desire to connect and to reach out and for others to reach out to me and all of this emotional landscape comes with me to work
what's the type of stuff on the on the more on the you brought me I'm following you Dan you took me to a very serious solemn place so here we are I'm I'm I'm I'm happy to go wherever wherever this dance leads us um I'm curious you said before that if you're preoccupied that actually can take you out of the room for your family friends patients team members uh what what what are the are there do you have psychological Achilles heels things that actually you're prone to be preoccupied by oh I think a very easy
one would be if something is going on with my kids you know that's like number one you know you're only as happy as your kids are happy so I have memories it's not happening so much now but I have memories of you know I I I can barely Focus because because I am thinking about what the SCH Smurfs are dealing with you know that's that's an easy preoccupation Health matters health issues my own or people that I love you know that's a big another big one it's basically there's a way in which it's a it's
a contradiction okay and it works on both sides of the contradiction when my inner world or my world my my life is not stable it's more challenging to provide stability for the people I work with on the other end when my world is unstable it opens up it gives me access to a range of emotions that I'm not necessarily in touch with on a daily basis and that range of emotions does open me up to working with a level of depth that I often think is even bigger than the one I strive for in a
regular day yeah no that that that make for me that makes a lot of sense um does that do you relate to that yeah I mean I do I mean I think about when something happens in my little world or in the world RIT large that is destabilizing it puts you back in touch with the fundamental um sorry to use this word again non-negotiable realities of of Life uh which is that this thing moves fast there's no guarantee that the next breath is going to be successful for you or for anybody you love and um
there is the ground beneath our feet is not as stable as we would like to think and we spend a lot of time and I think are in many ways programmed for denial of these of these underlying realities but when they become Salient there is a kind of I don't know if I love this word but like a tenderness that is available it is it is it's a fragility it's a tenderness that is response to an awareness of the fragility of things so you you want to protect it you don't want to you know you
feel suddenly that things can really go wrong so you there's a cherishing there's a a holding the fragility and that is a tender expression yes I think so the other non-negotiable you listed at the beginning of the conversation was um was yoga and I noticed a commonality between the two between the two things you listed the first was showing up and the second was yoga the commonality at least one of them is that both involve other people it's not these are not solitary Pursuits correct correct because my life is more organized with the presence of
other people I am I'm very well aware of that and um there's a level of accountability so it's also because of your question your question is what's a non-negotiable and I think a certain level of accountability for me is a non-negotiable I expect it on the other side side so that's a word we haven't used but in effect it's a lot of what I'm talking about right so this yoga group is a is is a thing I would like to if I could package it I would sell it because it's been an amazing experience you
know um it starts in the pandemic I realize that I'm really not somebody who's going to have discipline by myself because I need social accountability and uh and I'm also not going to go and buy class online that whole thing doesn't work for me so I start to talk with one or two girlfriends and I say why don't we do it together and then I say okay I'll lead of course I'm not a teacher at all but I've listened to my teachers for enough years that I can repeat even what I can't do anyway we
are about 15 or 16 now we're not always there at the same time for every class but we meet four times a week we just met this week on the roof of one of us and you know just to gather some of them had never met in person um and literally imagine four times a week as you wake up it's basically among the first things you do and you meet these people and you discuss various things of life and then 10 15 minutes later we we we get going and we are serious and there's five
teachers amongst us four of them that are really you know trained and licensed and um and it becomes this incredible cohesive force it's an intergenerational group that spans from 30 to 67 um babies were born parents passed away you know relationships broke up relationships begun I mean it it's an unbelievable thing it's really a novel actually it's a beautiful novel to write and because the characters are hilarious um there's and and we were this week literally saying what makes this an interesting group and it says all of this it's the the the different Generations it's
the different backgrounds it's the serious and fun the light and heavy the the mischievous and the solemn it it it just inhabits so many you know nuances and in that lives this hour and 15 minutes of intense dedicated yoga that has literally changed none of us were serious practitioners before but we had nothing to do during the pandemic so here we are you know and uh and so we we became devoted to this thing um and it's communal it's supportive it's remote we live on we do it on two continents there people in various different
countries sometimes people get to meet in person and practice it it it's like an amiba it's just a very interesting flexible shape of a group um that has become without any planning a very important um stabilizer in many people's lives that's the best way to describe it and I you can do it with a movie club a book club a yoga it doesn't matter but there's something about the frequency of it because when you're younger you're in college or you're in you know at work with people that you see every day the the the Friendship
is built around sharing life together but often later on your friendships are the people that you meet to talk about your life too but it's not the people with whom you experience the most amount of time you don't see them at school you don't see them at work so you see them at dinner and this thing has switched that around you can actually you know share life without having to just retell life long explanation for a thing that is but because I literally went to the group this week so I had a lot to say
about it long explanations are welcome here um and I think I think it's really fascinating what you're pointing to and it reminds me of one of my favorite Ester isms which is the quality of your relationships will determine the quality of your life and it is therefore very important to nurture relationships in many different contexts so that you're you have people you can March arm in- arm with through this very unstable and precarious situation of being alive um so what I imagine some people listening to this might think well I'm not a St Parell I
don't have as many friends I don't have access to so many interesting people I maybe I'm lonely we're in the middle of an epidemic of loneliness or I work remotely I don't get to meet that many people how how do I create start this thing yeah I started with one person I said you know I'm having a hard time doing this alone how about you this could be I'm having a hard time going out of the house taking a walk running whatever it is I'm having a hard time doing this alone I I you know
there's a many of us lack that kind of motivation but if somebody waits for you it gives it a secondary meaning the meaning is no longer just the activity but the person you share the activity with and then you say you know then constantly people say there's somebody who wants to join there's somebody who wants to join that's how this thing grew they they all start by being people that are my friends but it's also because I'm very interested at this point especially talking about the loneliness epidemic to create situations that are not artificial intimacy
that's a thing that I'm very preoccupied with is where in real life flesh you know um present that's why I also started with the showing up and adult friendships I think that friendships you know were tested during the pandemic friendships are being tested right now in this acute period of polarization or period of acute polarization is more even correct and um on what what does adult friendship represent you know families often you know disintegrate um and friendship becomes the you know it's the first relationship we we choose freely when we are little and it Remains
the most reciprocal relationship throughout and so I'm very interested in Friendship at this moment and I would say to all of the people for whom this becomes interesting you know um it starts with one then it becomes two and then you will notice how much hunger there is for this you don't have to go look for people people will present themselves to you but you have to tell them that you're doing this like I don't necessarily go around talking about my morning activities but now I think I have a story I want to share because
I think that it it it I see what it's doing for the 15 other people and not all of them have the same kind of Social Circle that I do necessarily but something changed in their life especially the younger ones you know the younger ones it's like 30 year olds with 60 year olds that has a whole other conversation and that's also 60 year old with 30 year olds nothing more important than intergenerational which used to be done Naturally by extended families but we don't have that so we are so locked into our own cohort
people with kindergarteners together and people with teenagers together and you know that's not the way that that wisdom gets passed it's all these elements find the activity and then just think of one or two people and just say this is what I would like to create are you interested and then let me know what happens what if you're an introvert an introvert can write a message and just say you know I've listened to this kind of music are you interested in this music introverts are not not social they experience their sociability differently I think we
have to to be very accurate about that introverts may need to replenish a loan and then accumulate the energy to be to be with others versus extroverts who get energized by the presence of others but that doesn't mean that introverts don't like the company of people that's a that I think that there's a range of introversion there's a lot of people who are very sociable that tell you I'm an introvert um it's about not being alone it's about being supported it's about having witnesses to your life it's about not feeling that when you go through
the hard things of life you're doing it without an empathic witness and that's what makes all the difference and especially in this moment reach out to people just tell them I was thinking of you I think what's happening may be affecting you you know it affects me it's about you know don't be afraid if you reach out and somebody says no no everything okay well then you say that's so nice to hear but it demands the minimum of what is the the the thread that will help us not dry up in solitude no Solitude is
not the right word in aloneness not even in loneliness but in aloneness as you may know this podcast 10% happier has a companion meditation app where you can go and learn how to put into practice all the cool stuff you learn uh right here on this show you can go over to the app and learn how to drill all the wisdom from the show into your neurons uh I like to think about it like science class in college where uh the podcast is the lecture and the app is the lab the app is called 10%
happier just like this podcast you can download it wherever you get your apps again it's called 10% happier search for it wherever you get your apps and download it for free just just to build on that and uh this is about me interviewing you so I won't say too much here but um I had an experience where two two years ago I retired from my job as an anchor man at ABC News where I was working on the weekends and so I didn't have much of a social life as a consequence for the 10 years
or 11 years where I anchored on the weekends and simultaneously there was a pandemic as we all know and my family and I moved to the sub where we didn't have any friends and so when I retired I found myself with these like empty sort of blighted spaces on the weekends and I really had to kind of start over you know my wife and I together and um I just what did you do what did you do that you feel really made a difference well so yes that's exactly where I was going what so one
is I I just made it clear to everybody old friends and new that I was available and and that I was in a it was in yes mode and if there was a party in the city and it involved me driving I was still going to go and I was going to show up for for things that my friends were organizing the type of stuff I used to not show up for um the other thing I started doing is getting much more consistent about doing something you mentioned which is reaching out to people at random
times um just to touch it base and even people I hadn't heard from in years um and they had heard from you in years either exactly exactly I'll give you just one example that I found particularly poignant which was just the other day uh a friend of mine popped into my head I hadn't seen him in a couple weeks we're very close and so I do see him regularly but I hadn't seen him in a couple weeks and I just sent sent him a quick text to say how are you doing he called me immediately
which is rare he said the universe just delivered you into my lap the perfect person I'm at the vet my dog is really sick and I have to decide whether to put him down and I need I need somebody to talk about this and we talked it through and he cried a little and he made his decision and I just thought you know I don't believe in anything metaphysical at Le I don't have any proof for it but that that's just an interesting example of how if you get in the habit of being externally oriented
interesting things can happen so just to not scare off the introverts it's really not about being externally oriented it's about staying connected yes yes it's really about staying connected and so many forces these days are hindrances obstacles to connection to real connection food that feeds you not artificial food and I think that that's what you know it it's a strange thing that that suddenly becomes the the the thing one is supposed to say in public but it is so basic and we are losing the basics because there is a social atrophy going on where we
are lacking the skills for for the situations that we need to to to face with people you know um in this instance you know what are two situations that are very challenging for a lot of people in relationships one is to ask for help which your friend did and one is to disagree you know I'm I've been spending a lot of time thinking about conflict these days you know and how people stay connected with people they disagree with or they have Divergence of opinion or have different values or that whole set of things reinforced by
the political envir situation of the moment but it's happened already before so conflict and help are two essential uh challenges you know big topics of relationships and um and one of the things that helps them the most is the one onone connection and so it's it's a beautiful thing a that you just spontaneously reached out B that he just said oh just in time someone for me and that he then said I need you and then that he made his decision with you and that he could process the immediate emotion surrounding the decision with you
and you will never forget this neither of you will never forget this moment because he will remember the day he had to decide about letting go of his dog and therefore that's going to associate in his memory with you and that's going to associate with this friendship that he had and you know this is how we live not feeling alone what what helps us not feel alone it's you know there's the concept of object constancy right when you're a little kid and you drop a toy and for the first time you realize that the toy
still continues to exist even though you're not seeing it and then somebody picks it up for you and then you throw it again they pick it up you throw it again but you learn that you continue to exist even when the other isn't the here that you live inside of them to be internalized by other and to internalize others is the fundamental fabric of connection that helps us not to feel alone in the world on a on a big level alone I'm talking you know I'm all alone of course we are alone in front of
big death and you know there's that truth I know that answer but there is the aloneness that is fundamental aspect of life and then there is the psychological iCal reality of aloneness and that is what you experience with your friend he lives inside of you you thought yeah what's happening and he took the hook and went with it I think uh I I love everything you just said and and to get back to the question you asked before like what what what have I done and therefore what can one do to to kind of make
up for the social atrophy that the that the culture is in many ways posing on us um another thing that comes to mind related to what you just said is I I don't know if I would have been able to crystallize this until we got into this conversation that I kind of want to be the person that other people talk to when yeah when when shit's going wrong um it feels so good to help others yes it does you don't have to be a therapist I do this for a living but it really feels so
good you feel honored when people come to ask you not always but sometimes you just feel like I'm so glad that I'm the person you're thinking about I'm not talking about all the help that we need to dispense that we didn't choose I get I have that too but this type of help that you describe to be the one that one reaches out I you're the one I can talk to about this wow that's a compliment I wish many people should receive for me a key learning within this and I'd be interested to see whether
you agree with this is that I don't need to fix any of these problems I just need to as brne Brown says sit in the dark with them absolutely absolutely many times you know you know the definition of trauma is not the thing that happened to you but it's the fact that it happened to you without the presence of an empathic witness so many times you know we will figure out what we're going to do dog or something you know we we we'll sit with It ultimately in that sense he is alone he's the only
one making the decision and your friend is the only one who's going to live with the consequences of his decision in that sense he's alone but he's not alone because he can share it with you see it's this both end and your presence changes his experience of this whole process and so that's how you live with both of these realities at the same same time being being connected while you are alone in making a decision but you're not alone in the decision it's is so I like what you say and is that a new discovery
for you that you like people to turn to you I think I've felt this way for a while but I didn't really uh I wouldn't have been able to articulate it uh so clearly had we not had this conversation that is so what is it that we said that may that clear for you you're asking for a level of recall that I am currently unable to achieve uh I think it's just um something that's been bubbling in the background of my psyche for a while that I I like to um and I said it to
my friend too you know he said he's he was he expressed some gratitude and I was like look we are really close friends um I'm going to play to the whistle with you in other words I'm going to be friends with you until the game is over and so whatever is coming up I'm your guy like you can call me and I feel that way about a significant number of people in my life and that's a good feeling to have do you call them yes yes I take very seriously what I'm I I'm sure you
know Dr Robert waldinger the guy from Harvard um who says um never worry you say who he is because it's one of the most extraordinary stud is yes so this study well you want to describe it you're you're you're you're better you're more familiar with this than I am I mean it's a it's one of the longest studies done on uh on the on men specifically and on the social life of men um you know for six decades I think he has been doing this study right about 60 years yeah um and the most important
piece of data or information is that the majority of these men when they talk about quality of life happiness fulfillment um satisfaction Etc will emphasize one thing above all and that is their social connection the the quality of your life depends on the quality of your relationships it's or the quality of your relationships determines the quality of your life turn it in every direction um it's not their work it's not their achievements it's not their money it's it's who who who cares about them and who do they know who do they care about that's how
I would summarize it what would you have said that I think that's exactly right and as a you know as W waldinger has explained on on this podcast and on others that what they found is that long long longevity is very much linked to um the quality of people's social connections and he says the mechanism for that is that stress is generally what kills us over time and that stress can be reduced through having strong relationships and he crystallizes it in this phrase that I love and that I would get potentially tattooed on myself is
which is never worry alone and so you asked me do I call other people if I've got a problem yes I do well often my number one um Confidant lives in this house with my wife but um if she's unavailable or you know I want outside opinions I I will I will not do it alone I used to and I don't anymore and I think that because it's a study of men it has even more power because there is a sense you know an internalized set of messages by which men often think they have to
do it by themselves that you know to depend on others is a diminishment of them and a belittlement of who they are and uh that the the the power comes in the stoicism and in the fearlessness and in the self-reliance etc etc and um there's a reason men die a lot earlier than women and often Alone um and it doesn't have to be this way and it wasn't always this way that's the other thing this is a rather recent development in our Western societies I think it's important to say that there's nothing intrinsic in masculinity
that sets us up for that that's so interesting yes so it's um it's it's not impossible to overcome this conditioning because it's not right in our DNA or in our chromosomes as male identified people no and people can go you know no I mean when you look at the research and you look at history in you know 19th century I mean men were surrounded by men you know they they had a different way of of defining friendship and and things that they shared as part of friendship but okay one it can friendship can be multilingual
it's not one way to to experience friendship agree completely let me just go back to something you said earlier Ester about conflict and that you've been thinking a lot about this what what are the headlines in in in your thinking Visa conflict and relationships you know it's an interesting thing I I I I started to think about conflict because I had a sense that uh more and more people were coming to talk to me about how they don't know they they don't know how to maintain a connection with people they disagree with friends families you
know and family members and but as a couple's therapist and a family therapist you you conflict working with conflict is is a central piece of the work but I wanted to conceptu ize it and I actually created a course on it where it's one hour course where I just summarized you know what I think is important for people to because when you deal better with conflict what you actually are doing is connecting better the conflict is just the obstacle to the connection it's not like you want to just do a course on conflict so it's
called Turning conflict into connection and what I wanted to say is conflict is intrinsic to relationships I mean we are meant to argue we are meant to sometimes it sometimes fighting is extremely useful it restores a wrong it creates a different balance it it allows for certain things to be changed I mean this is not a negative in and of itself and therefore there is productive conflict and there is destructive conflict and I wanted to to parse that out what's the difference about that what are the feeding strategies that people consistantly you know get into
when they enter into the dark space of conf conflict the cycle of conflict you know for example um kitchen sinking right it's like instead of having an argument about the thing that we are arguing about right now I am bringing back our entire history everything else that happened between us even things that we had long resolved they come in handy at this moment and if you pile up all the dirty dishes in the sink you can't wash a single one so you can't have a conversation and the minute the the the intensity of one argument
drops the other the person brings back something else and what about that and the last time this so there's all these defeating strategies one of the the main ones which is very important in this moment is fundamental attribution error you know we think of ourselves as more complex than the other when we polarize and we think that when we do something it's circumstantial you know I didn't respond because I had different things happen to me that made it challenging for me to respond and so unfortunately you know I wasn't polite or caring or you know
but you didn't respond because you are a cold person and you are you know an uncaring person and you are an irresponsible type Etc so mine is circumstantial and yours is characterological you know this is happening at this particular moment as well um totalistic thinking you know you are this you always you never you know rather than understanding that much of this is rooted in our experience and it suit factual talk but we think that we are making statements about the other defensiveness blame you know and basically what is polarization is I say something that
provokes you and makes you then say the thing that is harder to me you know I hurt you you're going to hurt me back plus and and we escalate we escalate and we find ourselves both in complete different Corners in a massive trigger chain and this happens in in Intimate Rel relationships and this happens in families and this is happening now on the vast social landscape of our countries and I I just thought you know if I can do something on the micro maybe it can have some effect on the macro you know but helping
people save themselves from these Cycles became something I I you know it's it's probably one of the most challenging aspects of our work H and one of the most important aspects of our work I've heard it ARG explain that accurately did I explain that well very well I have a million more questions um but you yeah it's super compelling and I think universally relatable I've heard it argue and I wonder if you agree that there is healthy conflict and then there's high conflict and maybe maybe this is just another way to say what you said
before about productive conflict and destructive conflict conflict we need some level of conflict but it can lapse into uh a vicious spiral yes I mean you know you can call it healthy I I don't usually it's not an adjective I I find particularly useful here but it's it's you know I can fight with you I disagree vehemently you know I as I when I was doing the course um I I a scene came fact that I had actually not thought about in a while you know Friday night in my house we often had family dinner
and we would Lune into the most acrimonious political conversations with we're in the 70s so you can decide what are the issues we were all fighting about and we would scream and I would say how can you think such a thing and what kind of person says this kind of thing I'm like 16 17 18 and in the middle of the argument somebody would say the apple cake is delicious [Laughter] and then we would continue you know be and we lived with very powerful strong differences of opinions about major aspect you know events of the
day but the connection was preserved just by this little bid that said you know the cheesecake is good or something like that you know so what is not healthy or what is destructive is when you attack the person when you want to shame them when you talk to them with contempt when you belittle their concerns where you tell them oh you have a problem let me tell you about my problem or you think you have a little boo boo or you think you are in pain or you think you have major problem you know let
me tell you about a bigger problem when you disqualify systematically what the other person is saying when you when they say five things to you and you take the one thing you can disagree with and you start to argue just on that one thing when everything else would have demanded a little acknowledgement of your part you know or in other words I think there's three main themes that underu every type of fighting it's either no matter what the subject is because it's not what you're fighting about it's what you're fighting for so that's what you're
working on right what is it that these people are fighting for are they fighting for power and control and they feel that there is an imbalance and the the the there is the the priorities and the decisions of the other take precedence are they fighting for care and closeness do you have my back can I trust you or are they fighting for respect and recognition do you value me do I matter these are three ideas that I take from the work of Howard Markman which is and I think it's very clear and very simple and
when you present it like that to people they know instantly it's not the kids it's not the money it's not the sex it's not the in-laws it's not the values it's any of these tree that is underneath what are you fighting for and I thought you know this is part of the atrophy that is happening too you know this is something I want to say I'm on a roll um one of the questions I asked at a recent talk that I did was almost 4,000 people and I asked did you grow up playing freely on
the street did you then yes do your children grow up playing freely on the street I try to encourage them to but uh they don't right and you know in that transition what we lost is years of unmonitored unchoreographed unscripted social negotiation between children who negotiate Rules and Breaking the Rules and making friends and breaking up friends and being jealous and competing and making up this entire toolbox of social skills that de facto helps you deal with conflict and that entire apprenticeship is disappeared that's part of the social atropy and that's part of why people
cut off family members friends at speed that is unprecedented because I shouldn't you know I shouldn't have to be uncomfortable yes with somebody who thinks very differently from me that has social consequences for a society at large that doesn't just stay in the domestic realm I did an interview recently that has really stayed with me with this Dr Ross Marin who runs the uh Center for anxiety at Harvard I like to joke that that's probably not the most fun place uh the center for anxiety um but his one of his theories and I and you
just touched on it is that part of what's driving driving this epidemic neverbe seen levels of anxiety is not that the world is in any way less safe because by every objective measure it is safer we are wealthier we have more we're more educated um than than it's ever been but what's happened is this diminution this atrophy in our willingness to be uncomfortable and so any little pings of anxiety we tell ourselves that we've got a big problem as opposed to understanding well that is just part of being alive right and I think that one
of the things that is contributing to that is that um we are basically often today experiencing from very early on a type of assisted living right we have a set of Predictive Technologies that are telling us how to get somewhere and what to watch and what to listen and who to date and where to shop and everything shows up and it and every one of these Predictive Technologies has a goal which is to remove friction to remove obstacles to remove this Comfort to make it smooth and Polished and that has had an incredible effect on
levels of anxiety because life is filled with uncertainty and discomfort and friction and obstacles and if you develop a sense that things should be like that without anything disrup disrupting you and and you get lured into it when things happen you do not know how to handle it so we know that there is an increase of anxiety that is that is a direct consequence of the inability to tolerate uncertainty to tolerate obstacles frictions and the lack of practice what you describe is the fact what I'm trying to ask myself is where does it come from
and what contributes to this there's never just one thing I'm giving you one example because it's it's one of the most Salient ones you know um artificial intimacy also uh contributes to that high rise of of anxiety because you live in a situation you know here's the script I'm talking to you I'm saying something really important to you and uh and I hear you say uhhuh uh-huh and I know that you're doing something else you're texting someone else or you're multitasking and I'm sharing something important and I'm having this experience of are you there or
are you not there ambiguous loss we call this ambiguous loss makes people feel very anxious too because you don't know you know are you with me or are you actually not with me so there's a host of different situations like that in our social life living at this moment that contribute to this heightened anxiety or to the inability to tolerate discomfort we may have a couple minutes left but if there was one or two things that you could recommend to people to get better at experiencing discomfort and anxiety so that they can fortify themselves for
the inevitable ups and downs of Life what what would those be I think your lying about don't worry alone is is crucial um you know that thing that I said number three when you asked me uh the non-negotiables who do you owe a phone call to and I'm saying a phone call you know which is after the text because the voice the voice is so important I mean you and I bought are podcasters we know you know we most of us the people know your voice and my voice by listening with airpods you know to
very gripping conversations or for me sessions with couples and individuals that are just so you're right there you just you've never ever seen the intimacy of others to such a degree so I I say to people call you know the voice is the first thing we that we develop in uto it's an important aspect of our connection and of not being alone if you can who do you ow an apology to that's another big one you know who um who do you need to who do you want to take a walk with just basic things
like that so I am a major promoter of social interaction it can be you know who do you want to go to a Life concert with you know when you buy tickets for a concert buy two or this is an interesting thing when I did this talk in London that I just mentioned before I asked people to stand up if they had come Al alone and I was really amazed a third of the audience came alone to an evening on relationships and I thought wow and then I said all of you sitting next to someone
who is standing please introduce yourself and make sure that they don't leave the way they came as the new kids in the class so it's about engineering these kinds of interactions um you know I was coaching a a patient of mine and a group of young people I said you have a you're going to go out you know why don't you check who's having dinner plants people may often be busy three weeks before but they're not busy the day off it's an amazing thing how many people are going to spend the night at home you
know who wants to go have a bite you don't cook just bring people four people into your house and just each one bring something or cook together or cooking together is an amazing thing you know know that you do with very little does it does nothing has to be fancy it's these communal experiences you know they say we did a whole study on on on families in Ukraine and with mothers in Ukraine few a couple years back and what was so interesting is that what did people want the most to help them with their anxiety
with their sense of dread with the war that was raging around them is to come together in a kitchen cook and talk as they cook don't just talk do something with your hands and if you can do something with your feet be in motion because then the body processes this and it it it discharges some of the tension and you can co-regulate together as you are in the kitchen or as you are on a walk so it it's these touch points that I think are crucial for our basic wellbeing at this moment I mean I
can go on and give others but if I was to to start I I spend an enormous amount of time telling people to do these little motions and then I say to them just send me a text with a check so I know you did it if you want to tell me more go ahead I have yet to hear somebody say you know once in a blue moon they say I reached out and there was no answer 99% of the time people just send me even a smiley just to say this was such a good
idea I would never have thought about it you're going swimming call somebody you're going to the gym call somebody you know text someone and just let just check because there is always someone who needs the one who's going to go anyway in order to do the thing they want to do but wouldn't be doing alone because they're on the couch and they're just saying ah not tonight I don't have the energy but I've never known anybody who went and regretted afterwards I'm going to put some links in the show notes a one to your conflict
course and also to a talk that you gave at South by Southwest uh that you texted me a couple months ago that I just thought was unbelievable and and you in in that talk you you mention um ambiguous loss and some of the detrimental impacts of having a a friction free life um in courtesy of digital uh technology um I just want to say in closing here and I I hope you already know this but I'm just such a massive fan of yours in person and professionally and you're just doing you're doing the Lord's work
uh so thank you for coming on the show and for everything you do it's a pleasure it's always a real treat of a conversation and I was on a roll I had a lot to say today I love [Music] that
