How a Head of Sales Turns Underperformers Into Top Reps (By Doing What Most Leaders Won't)

I'd get off calls and my peers would literally laugh at me because they were so bad. But then I'd get my pen and paper out and write down what actually went well. What could I have done different? My VP said, "I better see your behind in this chair every day at 5:00 a.m. making dials until you hit your number." Two weeks left in the quarter. A lot of people just throw their hands up in the air. or leaders might even say like there's no shot in hell, but I went into the office every day at

5:00 a.m. I was making 150 dials instead of a hundred. I got a PO the second to last day of the quarter and that completely changed my entire career. I owe a lot of it because this VP demanded excellence of me. Welcome back to the revenue vault where we go inside the playbooks of today's most forwardthinking sales leaders to encouple what really drives consistent scalable growth. Hey, I'm Mark Chan, CEO of Venley and creator of the revenue engine OS. And every week we break down the habits, systems, and frameworks that separate the good from the

great. Now today's guest is Meredith Chandler, head of sales at Align and one of the sharpest operators in modern B2B sales. Now before Align, Meredith led sales team at Captivate IQ and Spiff, which was acquired by Salesforce, consistently driving massive revenue growth, tightening sales cycles and building awardwinning sales cultures. She's been named a top woman in sales and is known for nononsense approach to leadership, mixing accountability, empathy, and elite standards in equal measure. In this episode, we get into how to lead through layoffs with transparency and composure, the psychology behind coaching high performers, her unique

live feedback method for spotting elite sales talent, and how she balances high expectations with genuine care for her people. If you're building or leading a sales organ in any capacity, this conversation is one you'll want to take note on. Let's dive in. All right, Meredith. Well, I am pumped to have you on. We're going to get right into it. What's the worst day you've ever had as a sales leader? >> Wow, we really are getting right into it. Uh, there are many challenging moments, Marcus, but I would say maybe the worst day ever is one

company I worked at had multiple rounds of riffs. >> And so, one day, one weekend, my VP called me on Sunday of President's Day weekend and told me that Tuesday there were going to be riffs. we were losing onethird of the sales team >> along with a bunch of other employees in the company. And so it was a very last in first out kind of thing. So just knowing that reps were going to get a mysterious 15minute >> invitation with HR on the calendar and that I couldn't tell them what was going to go on,

I just felt terrible. They got these invites. They started pinging me, hey, what's going on? Why am I talking to HR? I had to ignore them. And it was especially hard because that was my favorite team ever. Uh they were just incredible people through and through, incredible workers, and they all handled it with such grace and understanding. And I was just so thoroughly impressed with everyone that handled that terrible situation. And I rehedd a lot of them. I was a reference for many of them. But it was just a terrible day. and then absorbing reps

who, you know, had that survivors quote unquote guilt and and bringing them on to a team. It was just that was a really tough day. >> You know, as you kind of reflect cuz, you know, you've had a, you know, you've gained a lot of wisdom since then. It's never fun, right? That's that kind of first, you know, riff you have to go through in situations like that. Is there anything you would do differently in hindsight to make it a little bit less painful to be, you know, for lack of a better term? Yeah, I

don't know if there's much you can do in a riff situation because of HR complications. And so I think one thing that we as a company and and maybe myself as a leader did well leading up to that point is just treating people with a lot of respect and dignity and support on a daily basis. And I think that allowed them to kind of take it with less of a blow. And I think that led to them handling it so well. I mean these were a fantastic group of individuals but I think they felt valued

up until this point and because of the level of transparency all along the way that we as a company had with them on different areas different topics I think that they saw >> um you know that there was nothing else that we as a company could really do. >> So to be specific was there kind of signs kind of leading up to they probably saw us kind of coming is that what you're saying as well? Yeah, I think we'll they probably saw some of the writing on the wall with performance, but we I as a

leader try to always overindex on why and so there's not a lot of ambiguity if we're trying a new process or introducing a new product or doing anything. And so, um, I think just the extra layer of visibility with everything and all the changes going on in the company, they didn't have a reason to think that there was anything malicious or intended behind what was just like a a macroeconomic riff. >> Yeah. And I think those that's a really good point, Meredith, because I think like unfortunately I say a lot of organizations the leadup to

that tough riff day or week or whatever it's going to be is like a surprise sometimes to some of the employees. And I think it's like a that's a great place to put them because then they're wondering was it me? Was it something else? Blah blah blah. Versus the way you just described it's like you're really transparent. Hey, this is what's going on the overall organization. Here's how we're overall performing. Here's where we're good. Here's here's the bad parts. This is why this is why we're doing certain things. So, they can see like, you know,

like this is like the writing's on the wall, if you will, right? It's like it's not going to be it's not because of you, it's because we have to make the best decision for the business. And I think that's one thing I wish more leaders would do versus it's a surprise and people suddenly get these 15-minute popups with HR, you know, and that's never a fun situation. Now, on a different side note, you've been really successful in your career. And sometime when people see your level of success from, you know, being a top performing athlete

all the way up and do all the incredible things in your sales career, they're like, "Oh, she had she Mary just has it together. She's got like the it factor. That's just like she's like made to win." Was there ever a moment in your career that you felt like a total fraud, but kept going anyways? >> All the time. I mean even you thank you for all of those kind and encouraging words but even today still I think it's >> very unfortunately yeah I think it's unfortunately standard for a lot of leaders right we're very

a lot of us are very a type we're very per perfectionist and we care a lot about our work and and everything that touches it and so our best is just never enough I think for a certain certain group of crazy, which is a salesperson >> by actual definition. But I'd say in particular, when I first started working at Samsara, I very much felt way out of place. I was the second youngest rep on the team by far. I was one of only three females >> and most of them had worked together previously at a

company together. So, I had all those going against me. I also had never worked in SAS before. I came from advertising. I was in Indeed and Yelp and so there was a SAS and a hardware component. So it was just a huge learning curve and it was so blatantly obvious that I was years behind my peers, not only age-wise but skill-wise, but I knew it was a rocket ship that was going to take off. And so I was super determined to make it. And I think a lot of that is just showing up day in

and day out, putting in the reps, making the dials, learning, self-educating. I remember joining, you know, Samold trucking GPS trackers. So, I started joining all these like trucking unions and trucking publications and my roommates at the time in the marina in San Francisco like, "Why are you getting a a magazine on different different types of truck models, Meredith?" And so, you know, just putting your all in. And I remember there were days where I'd get off calls and my peers would literally laugh at me because they were so bad. But then I'd, you know, we'd

laugh. Um, and then I'd get my pen and paper out and and write down what actually went well. What could I have done different? Um, so you really just have to learn learn right away. But I also think environments that push you are very healthy, too. For example, my first quarter there, I was going to miss. It was terrifying. I was nowhere near the number and my VP said, "I better see you're behind in this chair every day at 5:00 a.m. making dials until you hit your number." This was two weeks left in the quarter.

And I think a lot of people just throw their hands up in the air or leaders might even say like, "There's no shot in hell." Um, but I that's exactly what I did. I I went into the office every day at 5:00 a.m. I was making 150 dials instead of 100. I got a PO the second to last day of the quarter. And that completely changed my entire time there and my overall career. And I owe a lot of it because this VP demanded excellence of me. Like not only do you have to demand it

of yourself, but you have to be around leaders who are willing to push you and you have to be receptive to being pushed as well. >> Yeah, I think it's really really powerful, right? Um, and I got to imagine being, you know, one of the youngest reps there, being one of the only few females on the team, uh, not having that same experience as maybe some of your peers, and you come already feeling like maybe a little bit imposter syndrome, like should I even be here? And then you have this like this like executive leader

who has really high bar. Was that hard for you to like to work under early on? Like how did you adapt to like, all right, you know, I can rise to this level of of their expectation? That's a really great question. I will say I personally thrive in those environments. What does that say about my childhood? I don't know. We can ask my parents or my therapist, but I thrive I thrive when I'm being pushed and when my back is up against the wall. I know it's not the environment for everyone. And so I think

everyone listening should take an honest inventory. And if that is not the environment for you, that's totally fine. Um maybe you need a more supportive environment. Then you need to seek a company that has full-blown enablement resources. You need a manager who has a lower rep to manager ratio, right? Maybe a 5:1, 6:1 instead of a 10 to 12:1. So I think it really depends on the individual but I fortunately unfortunately was bred for an environment like that. >> So because of that because you you feel like you were bred for that. How has it

influenced your leadership style now as a head of sales? >> Yes. I think I would say I also demand excellence of my reps. I'm a previous teacher as well. So I am very I'm a big proponent of teaching and so while I demand excellence I also pour a lot into them because I think with anything or any relationship in in life uh even a sale right give and get you can't just expect to get get I can't expect reps to produce produce produce if I'm not pouring into them as well and so I think um

if you asked any of my reps current or former you would say that there is a demand of excellence, but there is also a heavy upleveling and teaching component involved and that it's a reasonable expectation. Um, and it's a fair expectation for all. There's no special treatment. Everybody has the same expectations. If I hire you, it's because I believe strongly in you. And I also don't believe anyone's perfect or anyone knows it all. I don't know it all. I'm very far from perfect. I still learn and make mistakes all the time. Um, and so I

don't expect everyone to come in and be a perfect rep either. >> So I think it's really really powerful like kind of goes into the hiring piece because now I found you know I ran teams and orgs for years and uh I have a very very high bar and it's I'm actually it's kind of intense for some people. In fact like sometimes like it's like if we if I made a poor hire they saw the level intensity my expectation on day one it was not a good fit. like they would be scared, you know, because

like even like regardless of where they're at, like I'm like I'm gonna always raise a bar for them, right? And I found the hiring process is so critical. You probably have seen it too. So for you, how have you kind of vetted candidates in the process to find people who are most likely able to rise to that level you want to perform on your team? >> Yes. And I would I would imagine, Marcus, that in your hiring process though, even though you have a high bar of excellence, I guess if I were to ask any

of your reps, they're probably looking back now very appreciative of it, right? I would presume that you probably poured into them as well or you pushed them to push themselves. So while it's uncomfortable maybe in the moment, >> they probably really appreciate it now. >> 100% 100%. to answer your question of was the question how do you look for that in a hiring process? >> Yeah, it could be how you personally do it, right? Uh maybe was in whether it's it's it's part of the interview process, maybe certain questions you ask or certain things you

have them do to help try to hopefully reduce your risk of it not being a great hire. >> Yes. So I will say the first and foremost important thing is identifying the actual skills for the job at hand. And I've seen this time and time again with a lot of founders or companies that I consult for is that they have this idea of I need a big swinging Oracle rep or I need the number one rep at Salesforce. And those skills are night and day than what is needed for your startup going from zero to

one. Right? So I get very granular with founders and hiring managers on what are the actual skills for this job? Is it a hunting role? Is it a farming role? Uh how much of each component? What are your biggest objections? are the objections on you know this is a completely new uh sector or idea or the objections a competitive cell because again those are very different skills. So first off getting crystal clear on that and then asking a bunch of behavioral questions related to that. I always have in my interview cycles I always have an

interactive portion. So whether that's a mock demo for an account executive or it's a cold calling exercise for a BDR because >> we're all sales people which means we can all sell ourselves very very very well right and uh that is the most telling part of the process for me and I'll even tell candidates because they'll ask me in the call leading up to that do you have any objections and I might surface something that I'd like to dive deeper into but I also say, you know, we're both just kind of scratching the surface here.

The next phase is usually going to be the most telling. So, we'll spend most of our time there. So, I do that and then if I believe strongly in a rep, >> I I'm giving away the keys to the kingdom here. So, for anyone who's about to interview with me and watches this, um, actually bonus points to you for doing your research, >> 100% exactly what it is. But if I believe strongly in you, I will actually give you a a bit of feedback on the call and have you redo it in real time because

that will show me how quickly you can implement well a how do you receive feedback and then b can you implement it in real time and and how fast can you implement it? >> Oh yeah, I'm a big fan. I love that so much too. I think there was a couple great nuggets there which is you're doing a live role play on spot, right? you're making sure they're going through the exact skill set you're looking to identify in the ideal hiring profile and then how well they do that. Then number two, hey, let me coach

them on spot. What's their growth potential? But also, how how fast can they take what they learn and immediately put in action, right? So, you learn a lot from that. I I love that so much. I found that in my in our in my hiring process over the years, we've done the exact same thing because that really tells you like, can they do the job and do really really well? It's tough because the candidate will think, "Oh gosh, they're, you know, they're ripping me apart or oh, they had me redo this bit." But it's actually

the opposite. >> Oh yeah, 100%. You just want to see as well, are they also like, you want confidence, but also humbleness. >> Are they like, you know what, Mayor, thank you so much for that. That's really great feedback. >> And the best one is to say, let me go again. Before you act, you're like, all right, let's go. Let's do it. Right. Um, what I also thought was has been really useful for me as well is like because a lot of times I'm a firm believer every person I interview in higher at any level

of the organization from you know AE and all the way up. Everyone has what I call a self-concept which is a certain belief system in themselves of how high they can potentially go. >> So like that's why I like to always like ask them they'll they say I'll say something hey so what's what is the biggest accomplishment you ever achieved in your personal professional life and how did you get there? So I want to see like what do they perceive to be an accomplishment? I think it's really important, right? That tells me a lot just

based off that because if it's like, well, you know, like um you know, I graduated college, uh I don't know that's really great accomplishment, right? Now, but if they told me some story, maybe it's like I don't know, maybe they have like like they have learning disabilities and like they grew up really poor and they had to work 60 hours a week in high school, multiple jobs while doing all these things to getting paid for college. Okay, that's a different story, right? So, like I want to know what's that big goal they're going after and

how they go after that. But then also I'm like, "Okay, fast forward one year. What goals have you achieved that you dream about?" And I need I need to know their goals. And it's really really important because like if my median income my team is 175K and they're telling me they only want to make 175K, I don't like that >> because I need to know how high can they go, right? If they're like, "Well, listen, like I made 150 like this year minimum 300k. >> These are great." >> So it gets gets them thinking a

little bit. I'm like, "Cool. So, what are you willing to do to get to that point?" >> Oo, I love that. What are you willing to do? Or I I heard this recently on a p podcast. What are you willing to sacrifice to get there? >> 100%. So, usually I would take them on a sequence, right? It's like, you know, especially once they start working for me. I'm like, "Hey, what's your ultimate goal? How bad do you want it? And what what are you willing to sacrifice to get there?" So, I take them that intentional

sequence of thinking. So, this way they're like, "I want it really bad. How bad? So bad? What's so bad mean?" Okay. Okay. What are you willing to sacrifice to get there? So, it gets them to really see I can see that internalization of their value system to get to where I want want to go because ultimately, as you and I both know, either they have drive or they don't. I can't manufacture drive, you know, like it's it's kind of like pips are like hard to make it work long term wise. Like it's like it's hard,

you know, once you're on that pips, it's kind of unknown, right? So, that being said, kind of go into, you know, specifically to to people, right? Have you ever lost maybe a great rep or manager that worked for you and you're like, "Ah, that was on me." >> You know, I don't don't want to jinx myself, but knock on wood, I have been very fortunate enough where I can't say that I've lost someone where I have regretted it. It's usually, like you said, the writing is usually on the wall if it's not working out. And

those that are worth fighting for, I have fought tooth and nail for. I I will say um there was one rep and uh he wasn't doing so hot. He was under a different manager originally and we were in a leadership meeting and um this was part of the rift. I absorbed him as part of the rift and he told me, you know, I I'd never really had coaching before. I I'm really excited actually to work under you because I hear about all the coaching and I listen to your podcast and I listen I watch your

webinars or I've been watching like um all this time anyways. So I worked really closely with or I was just starting to work closely with him but in the management meetings seuite you know they only see the spreadsheets they see the numbers they see his close rate is half of what the rest of the team is and I said you know he has the intangibles. Every morning I wake up, he's sent me a new podcast that he listened to. He self assesses all of his calls. He asks me for feedback on his calls. >> We

have done him a disservice as a company by not getting him enough coaching. >> Give me one quarter with him and then let's re-evaluate. And so we both worked really hard, but it was so worth it because I saw the effort he was initiating. And so I was happy to meet him halfway. And um now he's their top performing rep. I even had the CEO reach out to me after I had left the company and just saying, "Hey, thanks again for sticking with this rep and for sticking up for him because he's turned into our

north star." >> I love that so much and I think um there's such a powerful lesson there where I think unfortunately a lot of leaders, they're armchair quarterbacks and they operate off just pure spreadsheets and that is only one piece of the data. And I found generally speaking, we have so much great talent across the board. And I've seen this cross before. Every turnaround I've seen the same thing. Like maybe they're like really good reps, good people. The numbers don't show it, but they were never provided the proper training, direction, support, and coaching to get

the most out of them. So they want to do well, which is which like half the battle, but they don't know how to get there. And a lot of time we just say figure it out or, you know, sink or swim. And they just kind of fizzle a lot. and sometimes they even quit sales. But if they have like a great leader like you who who says, "Hey, you know what? I'm going to meet you halfway. I'm going to give you the tools, the training, support, I just need your best to try." That's it. Just

give your best. That's it. And see what happens. It's amazing how many reps could turn around and they become a northstar like that example right there. And I wish more leaders are listening this like right now. If you're listening this, you have people on your team in your org who are not performing. And this is a process I always think there was. It's called MP. You look in the mirror first, the eye as a leader. set them up for success. Right? Then P the process. What's the process I have in place? Is the process good

or is it broken? You need to fix the process. And if if your if the mirror is dialed, the process is dialed. Then you look at the employee and is it a skill or is a will thing, right? And I found that majority of times for a lot of orgs, it's some it's a problem in the mirror or a problem with the process. >> It's like they're only a small percentage is actually an employee. What's something your team used to tease you about behind your back and you knew about it? >> I'm sure a lot.

Right. They're doing it behind my back. They're It's just kind of part of the job, right? Like you're always going to have those idiosyncrasies that um you know, you think you're telling a joke and your reps are like, "What is this crazy lady talking about?" Um so I'm I'm sure there's a lot. And this one particular instance, I don't know if it was teasing because this rep was very serious, but they told me I I'm not vulnerable enough. >> Oh, >> real Gen Z style. >> Sure. Yeah. >> But um I consider myself pretty personable,

approachable, friendly, yet maintaining >> a standard of excellence. M >> I didn't know really what to do with this feedback cuz you know I'm here to work. I'm here to build a winning team culture. I'm not really here >> to spew my life story. >> Um and I've had a lot of hardship in my life. So I don't really want to go into that at work. But I would say the only thing I could think of to maybe lean into this feedback because I think every feedback whether or not to your point in the mirror

if if we agree with it or not, there's still somebody's perception and everyone's perception still has a dose of reality in it, right? So I'm thinking what is something that I could do to show how vulnerable or or show that I have a vulnerability side. So, the only thing I could think of to do was to make my calendar completely visible. >> And a lot of sales leaders don't do that, right? Because there's a lot going on in the business or their personal life or they just don't want any questions or they don't want anyone

to book over any of your meetings. >> So, that was really the only thing I could think of, Marcus. And so I made my entire calendar completely visible. So they could see when I was meeting with marketing, when I was meeting with ops, you know, what we were working on if if it was, you know, not an HR blocker or not HR inappropriate. But then I also let them see my personal calendar so they could see when I had trivia nights and I had one rep, you know, the night before would say, "Okay, well, how

are you doing on your pulp culture?" Like, "I see that's the theme this week." or they'd ask me, you know, how my tennis match went the following night. They'd see when I had dates or when I had dates, a string of dates with the same person, you know, how's it going? It's been three dates now. And so, they tease me about that stuff, which I think bridged that gap of you're not vulnerable enough because I'm not sharing my personal life in meetings. Like, there's just no time or space for that. And so, I just kind

of created the space as async, >> you know, I think it's really really powerful. Um, and I think it's actually, you know, I know you're talking about the Gen Z Gen Z thing, but I think it's also very admirable they actually told you that, right? Um, cuz I I think back in in hindsight, and I would say no one's ever told me that, but it's like when you're when you're a type A performer, you're like just like you're just getting out of business, just get getting stuff done. And people see it's like machine like type

of execution, for lack of better term, over time, they build a perception in their mind. And and what's interesting is like I remember similar to you with the calendar piece. I remember they didn't say you weren't vulnerable. They said like, "Hey, we don't know where you are during the week, what you're up to." And it's in some way they kind of said something like that. And I'm like, "Huh?" Like what? Like like I'm actually like I work probably more hours than you work. Like I'm like like is this a question my work ethic? I didn't

really know. They're like, "No, they're just like we just have no idea. We're just kind of curious." I'm like, "Oh, it was actually the other departments." So the other departments >> and like marketing like they're like they had they perceived that sales people were just lazy if you will. So that's I actually just started doing the same thing. So, I actually started having my calendar invisible at all times. Like it was like they they had like digital access. They had even my office had a physical office as well. My e my EA would my sister

would just print out my calendar for two for the for the two weeks. They could see it. It's exactly where I'm at, where I'm going, where I'm traveling so everyone could see it, you know, for like my team for my team team huddles for my managers or my reps which level is at. We go through my calendar really quick as well so they knew what was going on. But that was that visibility. But here's what's really interesting. So, as I started kind of go up my career, um, and I was interviewing for my my next

role where I'll be managing managers and I'd be stepping into a role where I have probably eight to 10 managers. I'll probably have, you know, 80 to 80 plus reps. And um, he said, my VP said, "Hey, do you know how you've perceived outside your team?" And I'm like, "Well, I'm not really sure. What What do you mean?" He's like I'm like he's like I'm like, "Good. Hopefully." I mean, they see me at pin presence club every year. They see me on the stage every year. They see like I'm constantly sharing how to do things,

their leadership meeting. I'm constantly doing everything. I'm kind of the go-to person for like everything. Like hopefully they're seeing I'm bringing a lot of value. So they're hopefully they're like excited for me to be maybe their their their director. That's cool. You know, he's like yeah he's like they think you're intense and they think you're probably a micromanager. I'm like what? He's like yeah. They're like some have seen your schedule. It's super int. It's like super they see your calendar. It's crazy. Like you are like like you micromanage yourself to whole level that most people

would never do. And I'm like, "Oh, okay." He's like, "They don't know how the the hard the hardships you've been through or any of the challenges." I'm like, "Oh." So, very similar, but you know, said vulnerability. So, one thing I started doing, and this is actually was actually actually made me really uncomfortable to be quite frank, >> but it really helped me actually quite a bit. So, when I started any team I took over or any new rep I met or when I traveled around to my my new market when I got promoted, um, I

started doing this exercise, I learned from a great mentor called the Triple H. and I huddle the team around, right? Maybe we're eating lunch or whatever. I say, "Hey, they think we're talking about like sales or, you know, numbers, whatever." I'm like, "Let's play a little game." Like, it's called the triple H. You know, we're going to go in a circle and you just pick one of the H's to talk about. It could be you can talk about a hero in your life, a hardship, or a highlight. A hero, a hardship, or highlight. Any you

just pick one, okay? And you can talk for like, you know, two or five minutes, a short story. That's it. I like I'll go first because obviously you I you guys didn't know I was gonna spring this on you, right? So I would start off first immediately with if I would pick one of them like it would always be like I would start with a hardship immediately. It'd be like a hardship or hero story that's like very vulnerable about why it's a hero. Even if it was a highlight, I would lead with like the hardship

that came with and then the highlight came out of it, right? And I get like really personal. It's like I didn't start speaking till I was four years old. I had a speech impediment. here's all the issues I ran into, >> you know, here's like me struggling in sales. Here's me struggling in like in leadership for first time. So, I would share these stories that, you know, maybe weren't as visible from the external and it was amazing because it would like create this culture with them where they were like in that bubble. They're like, "Oh,

it's okay." >> And then they would kind of open up and they share these amazing stories and we have like a deeper bond, right? Um, but I don't know to help you, but that's like kind of almost a good force exercise. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I'm so ready to go get on the business. I'm like, I need a little something some kind of ease into it, you know? >> Hardship. This huddle with Marcus right now. >> Like, uh, being right here with you is my hardship, not the highlight. And you're not my hero. That's my

like past. >> Fortunately, no one told me that to my face. >> That is a good format idea, though. I like that. >> Yeah. You know, yeah, get a little creative with their eye, you know. Um, but I think it's like, but I think the point my point is is like like you mentioned, I think especially as you go up in your career and you're successful like you, we as leaders have to be okay showing vulnerability, right? And it's like and and it doesn't have to be like super awkward at all times, you know, like

let me just tell you the most personal intimate detail of my life. It could be maybe if you're, you know, if you're having a one-on-one with one of your reps, you know, you share a quick little story about something that's going on in your own life that you're working on, right? Doesn't mean crazy, you know? It could be like, "Hey, my kids struggling with this is what I'm working through." Like, just so they know you're human, right? Which I think it can be hard, especially on the outside for the perfectionist type like you and I.

They perceive something that's like porcelain when you and I know it's not it's not the case at all. >> It's far more, you know, below surface. So now, um, we're going to kind of pivot a little bit, right? If you have a manager or rep who's struggling, what's typically the first thing you kind of look into? >> If I have somebody who's struggling, what's the first thing I look at? I look at effort, is it a motivational thing or is it a tactical thing? Because I can teach strategy, but as you and I have been

discussing, Marcus, we can't teach motivation. We can't teach >> intrinsic drive. And so if it's a lack of drive, what's causing that? >> One thing that I overindex for is seeking to understand and not leading with assumptions even in the worst cases. I think a lot of leaders unfortunately fall under this trap because of the pressure to perform and uh the per the pressure to get your team to perform. So, for example, just last week, I had a rep or just a few weeks ago, I had a rep that wasn't logging activity. And my mind

obviously went to like, well, what are they doing all day? I checked your calendar. Like, what's going on? Why aren't they working? I was like, okay, why don't you just ask them? So, I I just led with that curiosity and I said, hey, saw your activity logged nothing for last week. What's going on? And this has happened a few times across my career with different reps, right? Like one rep might say, "Oh, the the integration isn't working properly. Here's actually what I'm seeing on my end." It's like, "Okay, great." Like then I can stop spiraling

as a leader. Or in this particular instance, they said, "Hey, can you actually talk like I'm not really happy here. This is why we unpack it a little bit more. Is it something that I can help them solve for? is it or is it you know maybe just naturally the end of the line and so I think leading with curiosity if it's an effort thing and then if it's not an effort if we're seeing the effort like we we talked about with this other rep of mine who's sending me podcasts when I wake up sending

call recordings self assessing then it's a skill thing and then we can just work on a very tactical plan on the skills >> you know I love that I love how um precise you are specifically right because you're looking that is it a will issue or is it a skill issue right and then I think it's like and I'm not sure if you ever have you read the book it's an old book Steven CVY seven habits of highly effective people >> yes >> classic book right seek to understand is like it's one I think it's

that's a principle that we need in in all in all our lives just nine sales >> you know like I think how many times have I told myself a story about anything even at home like why are all these dishes in this sink well that's all right let's say >> what happened here okay >> you got a crazy morning last minute fire drills, you know, with the business. It is what it is. Okay, I got it. You know, it's like I can just kind of settle down now. So, I think it's really, really, really powerful.

And when we kind of look at like frontline leaderships, I think frontline leadership is one of the hardest roles when you're managing game of rep. I think it's one of the hardest roles. >> Um, >> and I feel like a lot of lot of reps who step into that role, they're never properly trained, developed for success. Usually, they're a good rep or great rep and they're kind, hey, good job. You're now running the team. Good luck. What's maybe one piece of advice you give a first line first year manager that would help them? >> I

agree with you. I think firstline managers are so largely underserved in sales and and tech and sales tech and it's quite atrocious actually. >> You take a top performing rep and you say, "Great job, Marcus. Now go make 10 Marcus'." >> That's right. and we don't give them any training, any skills training the way you do would with, let's say, a BDR moving into an AE role, right? And so, >> um, >> I I feel bad about how big of a stickler I was with my first management role cuz, you know, you're in your head

and you don't have these skills and you're just thinking, "This is how I did it. Why aren't they doing it this way?" But really, the skills are how do I get them to see there are other ways of doing this? And so my biggest piece of advice for firstear managers is if your company has no training for this transition, which likely they don't. Most don't, a ask for it. Ask for specific training or come up with your own training plan and ask that they help supplement it. Ask that they help fund it. or if they

don't or if they can't do that, you still need to come up with a plan for yourself and upskill yourself and and get yourself ready to have a successful uh role and career as a frontline manager. Whether that's books, courses, one-on-one coaching because the skills are completely different than what you did as an AE. Your customers are now your direct reports and your customers. So, it's not just uh you know getting a deal over the line. It's retaining and growing talent that reports into you >> 100%. Now, let's kind of dig a little bit deeper

into that. Let's imagine you're talking to a CRO and you're and you're going to help them guide like how to develop those first line those frontline managers. What would you tell them in the same situation? like how what would you guide them to basically build out you know to position those frontline leaders to be successful? >> So one thing that I always try to do is create a transition plan before they are in that seat. So, usually when you're making career paths, whether it's AE to team lead, team lead to manager, you have a six

week, 8week training program where the first week it's, you know, these are the metrics that we look at in management and here's how you run a one-on-one and here is how you provide coaching and you want to list the skills that are most widely used in this role. And you want to train them before they get in that role because once they're in that role, it's going to be >> way too chaotic. It's they they're not going to feel safe to fail either versus if they're in their current role, which is kind of tried and

true. They can do it. They have the muscle memory, they're comfortable to fail versus they're in this new position. They're really concerned about the optics. They want to do really well. Understandably, they're not going to go and try new things. So, it's up to us as leaders to develop them before they're in that seat. >> I think you 100% nailed it. Like, that's like the key is like develop having a leadership development program while they're still in their current role that prepares them for the next role. And like that's the secret to success. It's not

that, hey, congrats Meredith, you're now the new sales leader. Uh, we're going to try to train you now. By the way, don't lose anybody. Uh, you know, we need you add a little more headcount and get make sure everybody hits their number. And by the way, two people are on pips right now. So, please figure it out. Good luck. >> Yikes. I mean, that's a lot even for an experienced leader. >> I know. It's wild. And that's what we expect of these new frontline leaders. It's absolutely wild. So, >> it's also a great safety net

for you said we're talking to CRO's. You know, they get to try this talent before putting them in seat, right? So, if they're developing this potential manager and the manager is thinking, I actually don't like these skills. I prefer to be an IC, it's no harm, no foul because you haven't moved those pieces yet. Maybe there's somebody else better positioned for that. >> You're 100% right. So, you know, back when I was running a good size sales or I built this program called Captain's Club and it was they had to basically hit certain numbers to

go in. They had to apply to go in. And they get recommendations from like ops and sales to even get into this program. And in this program, every month we had topics just like you mentioned. How do you read a P&L? What are the key metrics? What drives what, right? What's what's a sales manager comp look like? How do you do one-on- ones training? So we walk them through and they had assignments each month they had to do that were associated to that thing. So be like, "Hey, you need to learn how to do a

one-on-one. Hey, you know what? Your your action is you have to go do a one-on-one with your manager next week." and or get them to kind of get these reps in early on. And you're 100% spot on because some of them be like, I'm good. I just want to keep going. I want to be an enterprise AE next. I don't want to do any of this, which is totally cool. So, we actually start segmenting those roles actually. So, like now, okay, that's fine. >> You have the IC path and now we have the leadership path

and we can help like develop accordingly. But then you build like bench strength down the road for like all these roles now. So, in case you get turned over in the manager manager ranks or anything else, you're always ready to go. if you opened up a new market or you kept growing headcount, you need new manager, you had people to pull from that you can like insert into these roles, right? So, you start building like longevity and like true legacy in the org, you know, as a result. So, that's why I think everything said 100%

spot on. Um, you drop an insane amount of value today. If people want to find out more about Meredith, how can they find you? Get get a hold of you. Yes, please add me on LinkedIn, Meredith Chandler, currently head of sales at aligned, or you can check me out on Meredith the salescoach.com. >> That's a wrap on this episode of Revenue Vault. Now, if you got value, here's your next step. Go to eventconsulting.com/teams to get a free performance scan of your sales or we'll show exactly where deals are still and how to actually fix it.

And if this episode gave you even one insight worth sharing, send to a sales you respect. I'm Marcus Shannon. Thanks for being in the room.