In the beginning, we have to start defining terms of like what's the what's the meta concept that I kind of operate off of? And the biggest one is fundamentally that like what is learning, right? Like what is learning >> adaptation?
>> So it's it's same condition new behavior. That's fundamentally like from a from a behavioral science perspective. It's like if you were so if you're you know person is condition A >> and then we teach them something when they reenter condition A they change their behavior.
So it's observable. So same condition, new behavior. If you the phone rings and you say XYZ and then I say, "Hey, don't say XYZ, say Zw.
" The phone rings again, you say XYZ, you haven't learned. If you say Zyw, you have learned. If you say something else, you've learned, but the wrong thing, right?
But fundamentally, it's a change in behavior within the same condition. And so it's like okay, if we say that is as kind of like tenant number one, the next thing is like, okay, then what is intelligence? So intelligence is going to be rate of learning.
So if I have to do that, you know, example, 10 times with, you know, Jack and five times with Graham, then Jack has less intelligence than Graham does in this context. This is a hypothetical Jack and hypothetical Graham. These names are completely taken at at random.
Um [laughter] but then it's like but but the reason I think that's important is because then it allows people to have um direct influence on their own intelligence. So if you learn faster, you change your behavior faster than somebody else, then you can in a very real way be more intelligent than them. And so when we asked originally like, you know, do you have to have real intelligence?
I think it depends on what type of intelligence you're talking about when it comes to to learning behaviors. This is how I define it. But beyond that, it's like okay well then uh like a lot of words like so what's an excuse?
So like an excuse is a statement to avoid punishment which is very simple. It's like okay that's what it's a statement that like someone says something like what's an excuse like show me when an excuse has occurred and by by looking at like you know patience I've defined this plenty of times because I had to use it all the time which is figuring out what to do in the meantime. So if you say to a young kid be patient they don't know what that means.
It's a bundled term. It means nothing. Be patient.
It means nothing. So, how would I give some directions on how to be patient? Figure out something else to do.
That's all you have to do. We are all being patient right now for our S&P 500 accounts. We're being we're doing something else.
That's all we have to do is just something else. And so, it makes patience uh operationalized, right? Like, how can I do patience?
I have a very >> So, you're really just kind of redefining all of these words or at least simplifying >> the words that are important and and by defining them, it's more putting them into a context that >> we're all talking on the same plane. >> Well, it's it's it's it's it's defining them within the observable universe. >> Oh.
That way we can all agree these are the things that we see. When someone has exhibited resiliency, it means that they've returned to a baseline of behavior. And how resilient they are depends on how quickly they do that.
If someone's not very resilient, it means that they extend the the change in behavior for a long period of time. If they're permanently quote traumatized, it means they never change their behavior, right? So it's like what's trauma, right?
Trauma is a permanent change of behavior based on an aversive stimulus, a negative stimulus, right? But then the question is okay, if we have this trauma, right? And then people are like I store trauma in my spine.
And it's like what? Where is there? Is there a hard drive in your like where what cell is this being?
People just say things. And so it's just it's a permanent change of behavior from something bad happening. Okay.
Now, if you're a little baby and you touch a stove and it burns your hand and that's an aversive stimulus and you change your behavior, you don't touch hot stoves again. Was trauma bad? >> I love that.
I actually like once you said that you're redefining everything into terms of the observable universe. I think that that I think it'll be my most I think it'll be my most successful. >> I'm curious though for something as I would say like >> like what's courage?
What's courage? Right. >> So the interval of time a potentially bad thing affects whether you do it.
>> What about something that's so like like like purpose or meaning? Those I feel like are really like I can't imagine how to define those. >> No, I think they're they're definable.
It just takes a long time to really think like the the the question you have to answer is what would someone do for me to say purpose has occurred. >> I guess maybe >> that's why it's so hard. That's why you have to because you have to completely shift how you're seeing things and be able to observe them kind of like firsthand.
>> And so it's like what's authenticity? It's how you behave when you have no risk of punishment >> and someone that obeys all of the terms that you've outlaid in that book. >> It's not of obeying.
It's just like this is t like I have to define these terms in order to talk about them because they're also amorphous and if I never define them then I would just be making face noise and other people would be perceiving my face in whatever way they think it means which they haven't defined anyways and so then there'd be a lack of communication. I think fundamentally like good communicators are able to transfer ideas efficiently because they use language that everyone understands and ideally things that everyone can observe with their own two eyes. And so that's I try and stick to everything being observable and so as a result it's made persuasion way easier.
It's being the most important one is to like if I want to train which is happens a lot in a business setting. It's like how do you train someone and you're like be more confident. What does that mean?
Tell a six-year-old be confident. It means nothing. It means nothing.
They might just say like that means talk louder. I don't know what that means. Right?
And so it's a bundled term. And so we have to break the term down. It's like okay well this is actually a series of many behaviors underneath of confidence that when taken in aggregate we then describe that person as confident.
So maybe they look at you in the eyes when they talk. Maybe they nod their head when they're listening. maybe they repeat back the last thing that you said.
Um maybe when um when [snorts] there's uh when there's something that has potential risk or downside, they're willing to do it. Like these are all things that we can observe and they say, "Okay, well, if you have these these you exhibit these traits, these skills in this setting, people describe you as confident. " Does that make sense?
And so being able to break things down like that has allowed me to um help my team when I'm like, "Hey, you know, I've told this story before, but basically I I had a guy who um you know, a lot of people were saying, "Hey, this guy's acting like a dick, but he was a star performer. " So we're like, "Okay, well, let's see if we can save him. " You know, and so we talked to three or four of the leaders in the company and he was still a dick.
And so I was like, "What'd you tell him? " We're like, "Oh, we told him to stop being a dick. " And I was like, "Okay, well.
" So I ended up meeting with him and I was like, "I want to be clear. I don't really care if you're a dick or not. Um, I do care if people describe you as a dick.
Um, and I want to like the purpose of this meeting is to decrease the likelihood that anyone talks to me about you again in a negative context. Cool. Great.
So, that was the, you know, agenda. It's like, all right. So, in order for that to occur, um, let's talk about the things that when you do them, people don't like them and they call you a dick.
So, it's like when you interrupt people during a meeting, they they think you're a dick and they call you a dick later. Uh, when you tell someone how to do their job, uh, they call you a dick and you try and force your agenda, whatever. It was two or three examples.
And he was like, "So that's all I have to do. " He's like, "Yep, that's all you have to do. " He's like, "But what if uh you know, I present this thing and then they they don't execute on it.
" I was like, "Then that's not on you. That's on the manager and I'll talk to the manager and make sure that they're executing, but that's not on you. That's not your role.
" And so, um, once that got clear, all of a sudden, he just stopped doing the three things that everyone the three behaviors that people then laded up to saying he's a dick and then they stopped calling him a dick. And then everyone's like, "Oh, he's like night and day, totally different. " But it was just like no one's specific with their language and so no one knows what anyone's talking about.
And I think the vast majority of people don't communicate well with one another because both people are saying words that neither person understands and no one's to find anything. And that's why most people can't communicate at all. And that's why most people are satisfied with their life.
That's why they can't manage their relationship because they like both people get upset. No one knows how to communicate and then that's it. They just like they want the other person to guess what behavior they don't like.
And so it's like even if I said, "Oh, you know, John's lazy. " You have to think, and this is why most people don't do is because it takes work. You have to think, "Okay, I think John's lazy.
Why do I think John's lazy? What what occurred? What did I observe that then made me think that?
Now, you might find out it's like, you know what, he's actually just slow to respond. Okay. Is there anything else?
There was one meeting he came ill prepared. Is there anything else? No, I think that was actually it.
Okay. So, when I go to John, instead of being like, "Hey, you're lazy. " I'm going to say, "Hey, I need you to speed up your responses to under five minutes, and when you come to a meeting, have your notes ahead of time.
Just send them to me. " All of a sudden, John's not lazy anymore. But it's because it was this very micro thing that we then ladder up to this amorphous term that no one can understand.
And so this is this has been uh a huge area of interest for me um in defining reality. And I think that honestly it's helped me navigate reality really well um and make higher quality decisions. >> If someone reads his book, how would it be actionable for them to get those ideas across with somebody else who hasn't read the book and >> they would have to define the terms.
They have to define the terms. That's it's it's it's getting a a complicated word and then simplifying it into the >> lay well they're not they're currently not communicating with that person. >> So like how would they talk to somebody who hasn't read the book the way they always do which is nothing which the thing is is the point that you hit on underpins the fact that most people can't communicate well at all.
>> Right. And so if a lot of people want to be different than they are and I am, you know, first in line on that. There are many things that I I've wanted to be different about myself for a very long period of time.
And this book and these ideas have been the culmination of trying to change these things about myself. I would say, I want to be more authentic. And I'm like, well, what's authenticity?
How do I be more authentic? What do I do? Well, it's like, okay, well, authenticity is how you behave when there's no risk of punishment.
And so if there's no risk of punishment, how you behave, basically if you're alone and no one can find out about what you do, that's you authentically. Now the problem is that in society, we also have rules that govern other people's uh behavior, right? Which means that the only truly authentic person is someone who behaves the exact same way alone as they do in public, which will probably have something to do with your preferences.
And so can you be truly authentic only in that subset of people who act with complete freedom? And when they act with complete freedom, act within the rules of the law. anyone else who has any inclinations to do anything that's outside of society's preferences or the rules that govern um how we interact with each other uh or the laws, right, has to by their very definition not be authentic or be less than 100% authentic.
And I see many of these traits as not binaries. Are you authentic or not authentic, but how authentic are you and also in the setting? And if it's like, man, this sounds like it's a little bit more complex, it's like, yeah, welcome to reality.
>> So, how have you been holding yourself back in terms of authenticity? >> Well, it's also the question of uh Is being 100% authentic something that is I should be? >> I mean, realistically, probably not, >> right?
And so again, but but but the thing is once we define the term, we actually can have a discussion about it because now we're all talking the same language >> and it's much more productive. And it's also way less charged from a like if we had never defined the term, then you would have maybe been like, "What do you mean? Like you don't think you're authentic?
" I'd be like, "Well, not 100% of the time. " It's like, "Wait, so you're lying to people, right? " It's like we don't define the term and then all of a sudden we're attacking each other rather than just saying like well no I I act differently in private I do in public >> to a certain degree I walk around naked like if I walk walk around naked in public that would probably be but but I'm being a little bit inauthentic right now I'm I'm wearing clothing I normally wouldn't wear clothing right you get what I'm saying like and so again that what it does is it adds nuance but BF Skinner who's a famous behavioral scientist said um if many variables exist many variables must be studied and so a lot of want a very neat box with clean lines and say like this is the way it is.
And um I don't think reality is that way. Like it's not is this person honest or dishonest, it's how honest are they? How loyal are they?
>> I'm curious. You take a blank slate person. They read and apply everything that you write in this book.
What does their life look like a year down the road, 5 years down the road? >> Great question. So it's the book will by no means be a here is how to live life because that assumes that I know and that I think they should do something.
I think it's more if you want these things, these are the recipes for achieving them. So if you want to be perceived as patient, figure out things to do in the meantime. If you want to be perceived as authentic, behave more in a way that you were that you do in private in public.
If you want to um you know be perceived as more courageous, then decrease the time between uh when you perceive something as risky and when you take action on it. Like all of a sudden it's like, oh, so I want these traits. And so this would in my opinion be the first way that at least the first place I've seen where there's like a recipe like do this.
How would you explain it to a child who doesn't know what the words mean? And I think that's what allows well I mean it's it's what allowed me it's what has allowed me to exhibit more traits um that I that I wanted to have versus traits that I didn't want to have. And until I had that I just was like why do people describe me this way?
It was cuz I couldn't break down what I had to change about what I did um to change basically reality. >> You're in a great position to talk about it too. It's interesting because I've you've mentioned this years ago that you had an issue I think it was with anger >> and you also had the patience thing.
>> Yeah. >> But it does appear as though you've made pretty significant strides in applying corrective behavior. >> Yeah.
>> To those. >> More on patience, less on anger, but better. [laughter] >> And and how [clears throat] does anger affect negatively maybe your business or your life?
Like what have you noticed? Um, okay. Well, I'd say that the negative effects of anger for me have probably just come in in almost entirely from the way that people treat me, not in terms of negative outcomes business-wise.
I think the reason that I still have anger is because it has served me. >> So, I think we repeat things that have served us in the past. And so, I think one of the reasons that people misunderstand why they do things is because people ask the question, what triggered that?
You ever heard that? It's like, oh, something triggered this behavior. >> But it's not about what happened before.
It's about what happened after the last time you did it. So, I'll give you I'll give you a real example. So, if Ila gets upset, and this is something that I've I've really actively worked a lot on.
If Ila gets upset and she gets like she cries if we're having some, you know, whatever. I had a tendency um to try and comfort comfort for a short period and then if that didn't work, I would get angry. When I would get angry, she would get scared.
when she would get scared, she would stop crying. And so when I got angry, she stopped crying. And so I learned that if I got angry, I got my wife to stop crying.
And so it was a very reinforced I only only figured that out later. >> And so it's a very reinforcing thing. It's like, oh, if I can I this gets Ila to stop crying, right?
Um and so to the same degree, so I've been rewarded in that setting, but obviously she's like longterm it erodess, you know, so then I have to work on that, right? Um if I value the relationship, which I do. Um but the same context with uh my team right if I am quick to anger or be cold or sharp with someone and it doesn't even have to happen often like if you do it once or twice or even if you do it in front of somebody not directed towards them they're like well I never want because modeling is a great way that people learn.
If someone shows up late and I yell at that person, then that everyone else is still afraid of me and doesn't want to show up late either, right? And so what happens is the flow of communication from other people to me slows down because they're afraid of getting punished by me. And so I see that as not positive for the business is me not having the information.
Now, how do I cover for that? Well, I have somebody like Ila who always gets all the information and that's why she's CEO and doesn't have direct reports. And so we've been able to man manage that um within the business operationally.
But in terms of me personally, like I want to be better about that. And so that's like an example of something that I'm working on. >> What's interesting is I I kind of have a similar thing in terms of like if I if someone's emotional to me, I have very very little patience unfortunately for it and it's one of my shortcomings.
>> Since you fixed that, how have you noticed >> fixed, you know, Sure. Okay. Since you uh try to improve upon that, how have you noticed that that change in in real observable ways?
Well, I mean, Leila has now also because she understands how this stuff works too because we talk about all the time, like she has tried to reinforce whenever I'm not angry and she's upset and so either in the moment or immediately afterward, she's like, "Thank you for not getting upset and thank you for being there for me and thank you for just hugging me and, you know, just waiting it out essentially. " Um, and so I just have to remember that when I'm in those settings and the more time she reinforces it, the less strong the other reinforcer is, the stronger the the the new one is. A lot of this stuff has has come from suffering.
Like being like, why can't I be this way? Like I want to be this way and I can't. Like why can't I?
And it's like cuz I don't know how. Why don't I know how? Because I have no words that have described how to do it well.
So how do I change this in reality? And so it's been it's been the result of of of a lot of seeking and a lot of pain. And that's so I don't I don't see it as logical.
I see this as just descriptive like this is this is how it works. But but you're able to to to assign a new timeline in terms of when you learn something >> to to to a longer period of time rather than most people which assess things over a shorter period of time. For example, like you know when you would get angry at Ila like she would quiet and they're like okay like this works but then you're able to then see way deeper into the future and then make decisions based off of that >> even that this isn't going to work long term.
>> Yeah. Well, yeah, I'll get feedback and I mean to be fair, I'll get feedback immediately afterwards where, you know, she might not be happy. I got to be great.
You know what I mean? And so, >> um, I think like it comes down to what are the things that we want to change and then how do we change them? And ideally, we want to have some sort of reward cycle as fast as possible with that new behavior.
And that's I think that's how fundamentally you can change what you do, which then letters up to who you are. Real quick, I'm going to show you the exact 10-stage road map from zero to 100 million plus that less than 1% of companies finish I've now done multiple times. And so I can say with a lot of confidence that these are the stages as headcount increases that you need to get through.
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