How to Master your Nervous System for Productivity and Joy - Jonny Miller

Every time you think you have a a decision to be made like a big decision it's usually an indication that there is actually an emotion to feel or emotion that you're avoiding but if something actually lands in you it's like a signpost that there's like an exiled part there yeah that is wanting like love and attention this episode is a conversation between me and my friend Johnny Miller now Johnny is an expert in The nervous system he teaches a course called nervous system Mastery where he's taught over a thousand students how to regulate and take

control of the nervous system to enhance their productivity and performance but also their joy and general enjoyment of life I'd say that there's actually an art to the feeling part of feeling good Joy comes from or emerges on the other side of of being willing to welcome and feel the full spectrum of our Human Experience he Specializes in teaching people how to access and work more skillfully with their emotions which is something that I am very interested in now Johnny's introduction to these topics is quite interesting and also quite sad I was engaged to amazing

actually Junior medic Junior doctor her name was Sophie she had bipolar disorder and on October 23rd 2017 she took her own life that Journey that followed into and through grief was what unlocked all of this for [Music] me hey Johnny welcome to the podcast how you doing it is great to be here well thank you for thank you for coming on um I was hoping to talk to you about the nervous system because you the nervous system guy at least on Twitter you've got a course about it you teach this sort of stuff and we

were talking on this Retreat earlier about how you know my whole stick is that to be productive you want to feel good you want to find Enjoyment and joy in the thing that you're doing and then you'll be more productive but your H sck is that in order to feel good you should Master the nervous system or something to that effect like what's what's going on with that yeah totally so um you've been to you know you've been to medical school you've studied the body physiology um most people think that we are victims of our

nervous system state so we might get triggered in a certain Situation or we need to use coffee to stimulate or alcohol to relax what I've learned and what I've realized is that there are these physiological levers that we can use to upshift or downshift our state depending on what is appropriate and learning these allows us to show up in ways which are you know way more appropriate and we can be way more productive or way more relaxed without needing substances to change how we feel okay so what do you mean by State so the nervous

system has uh you know very different states you can be in in a flow State you can be relaxed you can be overstimulated and uh we have what's known as a window of tolerance so everyone's tolerance is you know bigger or smaller depending on our capacity to be with intensity and one of the things that I teach is is by increasing our window of Tolerance we can show up in more stressful situations we can uh go For go for longer and also be able to downshift more effectively afterwards so and these different states are um

the important piece is that we have a dynamic nervous system so we can be adaptable to the situation okay so if I need to run away from a tiger I should be in a sympathetic like highly uh heightened State because I need to fight or flight I need to get all of the blood flow into my muscles rather than my gut and my brain and just like run run away And that's quite kind of like stressful uh but it's a good it's a good stress to be in if you want to run away from a

tiger yeah but if I'm trying to I don't know relax with my spouse or like chill out on the beach and I'm feeling that heightened sense of anxiety about what if my business crumbles when I'm gone or whatever that would be inappropriate for that moment is that fair to say that's that's pretty much spot on yeah and there's um various ways in which you can You know upshift or downshift your state depending on what you want to do okay so upshift is like more towards fight or flight downshift is more towards relaxing broadly okay that

seems reasonable um so yeah so in this podcast I was hoping we I was hoping we could kind of dive into the sort of the the specific practical things that me and viewers and listeners can do to downshift and upshift our state and stuff but firstly Like why does it matter like why why should we bother why not just go with like if what what's the difference between someone who has I guess Mastery over their nervous system to whatever degree you can have Mastery over your nervous system someone who doesn't who just sort of goes

never heard the word NOA system and never thought about state or any of that MH yeah totally so the frame that I have I have a framew called rise out of Reactivity and I think this for me is the the key of a lot of what I've learned and a lot of what I teach and it's this idea that um a good life is a life that is lived intentionally and I think this is something we're very much in agreement on and what takes us out of intentionality or what kind of on the other end

of that spectrum is reac ity and there are so many times in life where we might get triggered we might be overwhelmed we might be procrastinating And that kind of takes us towards the the reactivity side of spectrum and the set of practices that I teach with nervous system Mastery and and and breath work and things bring us back into that uh intentionality side so um you can think of rise out of reactivities like a pyramid at the bottom is R so R is the acronym R is reactivity I stands for interception s stands for

self-regulation and E stands for emotional fluidity and we can get Into what each of those mean but um the basics are the first step is you need to be able to be in touch with how you're feeling which is your interception Your interceptive Capacity is what is actually going on in my body what feedback what data am I getting from my physiology that I can then pay attention to and make decisions from the s self-regulation that is basically how do I shift my state using top down bottom up or outside in strategies to be Appropriate

and then the emotional fluidity is how can I welcome the full spectrum of experience welcome all emotions kind of like we were doing in breath yesterday how can I just be with whatever is happening without trying to fix it or change it okay so let's say I am really struggling with procrastination mhm and there is this thing that I have to do let's say in my case it's um filling out my tax return or Something something to that effect and I've been procrastinating on it procrastinating on it for months how might I use these rice

principles to beat procrastination yeah so um firstly like the the interceptive pieces tuning into like like what is it you're actually feeling in your body so if you think back to when you were fing out your taxes you the the story you had was UN procrastinating what do you think it was you're actually feeling or what were You not wanting to feel yeah so I think there was a sense of like H there a lot of random that I'm going going to have to email the accountants I'm going to have to dig up the freaking

you know figure out is Ali abdal YouTube channel actually owned by the company owned by myself which requires me to go through my emails from like 2006 all the way through 2017 from Google to find out oh go there's a lot of can't be us to do this let me just do It some time instead yeah so in that state it sounds like there's like the state is one of almost like stagnation and maybe Lethy yeah and so in that example I mean one one option would be drink like double espresso caffeine and just like

Blitz through it yeah the other option which is more of like the bottom up option would be something like Breath of Fire which we can demonstrate it's basically rapid exhale through the nose that will create more energy and Aliveness in your system like more arousal energy in the the sympathetic branch and you will have more energy to to do the thing um yeah taxes is a tricky one because it's like like no one kind of wants to do it and you kind of just have to sit down and get it done at some point yeah

no fair fair enough like my my strategy around that is to you know got an hour in my calendar next week and I'm calling my admin party where I'm going to have some music in The background I'm going to bring some friends over we're all going to do our together it's ways to make it feel good yeah cool so so that that's a really good point um with the the self-regulation strategies there's basically three approaches to changing your state um or three broad categories the first is top down which is like cognitive reframes DBT like

telling yourself a different story um maybe in the taxes example it's like actually This doing this is allows me to keep running a business which allows me to keep doing what I love so it's actually really important that's like a good like top down reframe outside in I love the example of like playing music and then inviting around your friends so inviting around your friends actually has this like co-regulation effect so you get you feel like more chill more grounded more more safe there's a greater sense of embodied safety um and music as well Like

music is an amazing State shifter so I was just offering like and in addition there could be a bottomup practice which is basically using your physiology in in some way the breath is the easiest lever but it could be moving could be dancing could be playing music and kind of sh shifting your state to create create the vibe that you want maybe Vibe is a better a better word there okay and so given that procrastination is really when we are Trying to avoid some kind of negative emotion by Under by by using interception we sort

of check in with our body and figure out like okay what is that what is the emotion that's coming up for me when I'm sitting down to do this task um then self-regulation and self-regulation is where we can regulate ourselves using these different strategies exactly and then emotional fluidity what is yeah what does that into it so emotional Fluidity is this is almost like the um yeah this can take a lifetime to learn it's also what Joe Hudson who I know you've spoken to recently teaches a lot um there's an example where that that I

like to use where every time you think you have a a decision to be made like a big decision it's usually an indication that there is a actually an emotion to feel or emotion that you're avoiding otherwise it would just be the next most obvious thing it would just be Like like we're making choices I'm making a choice to drink or not drink water it's just like OB we're just doing things but whenever often it's fear whenever there's some kind of emotion that we don't want to feel we will like get paralyzed there almost like

the kind of like internal tension that you feel and that's usually completely dissipated by like tuning in like oh actually I feel like a little bit afraid because if I make this Decision then it's going to lead to this consequence that I'm I'm afraid of and just welcoming that sensation actually allows that tension to dissipate and the next action becomes obvious oo that's fun yeah that's really good so whenever we are making hm whenever we're making a decision it's cuz oh when whenever we feel like we need to make decision a big decision no do

you think there's a decision to be made a a big decision or any decision could be any could be big Or big or little if it's a big one the next most obvious thing might just be oh I actually need to do some more research to figure out what until the the choice becomes obvious yeah so like you coming on this podcast and us having this conversation there was no decision there it's just like oh it's just it's yeah it's just the next thing to do which makes perfect sense but if someone who was a

friend of mine who didn't have something that an expert in and was not Charismatic on camera was to ask me hey Alie can of come on Deep dive there would be a decision there right of like do I say yes or do I say no great example and the feeling is like oh I don't want to disappoint them but also I don't want to don't want to be valuable for my audience and also like and then there's this thing that I'm not feeling beautiful and I would probably just ignore the WhatsApp message uh and hope

hope they go away uh rather Than actually like how how would you respond in that situation if someone says hey Johnny want to come on the podcast and you're like I don't think you're the right fit yeah that's a great example so this has happened to me um a handful I have a podcast do this happened to me a handful of times recently um I I think the the key thing there is not making myself responsible for someone else's emotional reaction or their disappointment um in order to stay True to my own sense of Integrity

so in that in that situation it would be I I think the let me feel into that for a moment the the emotion would be a sense of guilt or feeling bad that I I'm making myself responsible for them whatever their reaction is if I say no yeah um as opposed to uh if if I'm like okay like they they might feel they might feel you know a sense of lack of self-worth or a sense of rejection and I'm not responsible for the way that They feel so there's a sense of taking ownership over your

own emotional experience and not making yourself responsible for someone else's um and as long as I'm able to do it in a like share that no in a kind of kind loving way in a way that still creates connection then I don't think there will and and often times I've done this and there's been a sense of like oh I actually appreciate that I appreciate the way that you said That and often it's like a it's like this doesn't feel like it would be good good fit like right now but maybe down the line that

will change which feels true in my system I'm not I'm not lying I'm not making anything up it just doesn't feel like a a good fit in this moment but thank you for your interest m yeah this thing around um taking ownership of your own emotions and actions but not feeling responsible for other people's Emotions this is this is something I'm struggling with um and have done quite a lot because I think I take a lot of like I I I I think I take a probably an unhealthy amount of responsibility for the emotions of

the people around me to an extent if those if those people are people I care about like my mom or like my partner or whatever mhm and so if I for example do something that feels authentic to me that I know my mom will be disappointed or angry about because It's no it doesn't Vibe with her values or whatever right I feel this sense of guilt and or shame that like G I'm being selfish I'm being a bit I'm being a dick to my mom by doing this thing I I I don't really have to

do the thing you know it's not it's not the end of the world if I don't do the thing so like why not just do the thing that makes my mom happy and I get into this kind of weird thing sure any thoughts yeah oh no there's a lot there um I mean firstly Coming back to maybe like your core values and principles like you strike me as being a very intentional person so I what like one question is is how does it feel if you were to do that many many times over the course

of you know months and years how would what would be the long-term cumulative effect oh that would be bad on that okay so so that's like a that's like a not good outcome oh yeah okay nice and then on on The other side a a principle or something that I've learned is that uh um and this is particularly relevant in you know my partnership I'm I'm married uh not taking like I am not responsible for triggering or not triggering my partner and there's a there's a way in which that is actually very freeing like there's

a way in which um if I was to change what feels true for me in order to keep someone else happy that I care About I'm I'm kind of caretaking them and the reason that I'm doing that is because I'm avoiding the way that I would feel if I was to say something that let's say upset my wife but was but it was true for me and in the short term it might create more disharmony but in the long term you're creating like trust and safety and actually genuine connection because if your connection is based

on an implicit agreement not to say things that trigger each other then That's there's a way in which that relationship is superficial yeah yeah and and and you're missing out on the deeper levels of connection which you know maybe there's a period where let's say you said something to your or you did something that made your mom or that your mom reacted to in a way that she was disappointed maybe in the short term but as long as you were able to share like why this was important to you and Maintain like connection with her

my sense is that it would actually like it would be net positive in the medium term for sure what do you mean by maintain maintain connection like what would that look like let's say in an argument with a parent okay so um it's actually it ties in with something we were talking about earlier which is around like prioritizing the nervous system so if you're going into a difficult Conversation if both of you are in a place of you're like outside of your window of Tolerance that we talked about earlier if you're if you're triggered if

you're in a reactive State there is a very high likelihood that that conversation won't go well it's a correct it is certainly guaranteed like a very practical note and this is relevant for everyone listening is if if that if if both of you are in that state then Hitting paw walking away doing something to reset maybe it's like walking nature maybe it's um doing some breath work maybe it's listening to a nice relaxing track whatever it is until you feel like you're back in your body and this kind of ties back to the interception piece

like if you're if you're not aware of how you're feeling in your body if you're notice that your your system is really activated or maybe shut down and there's actually these these two modes Of reactivity so um we all tend to move one way or the other generally one is kind of and I'd be interested to hear what what your take on this is but one way is like people will go towards anger frustration like aggression and the other is more like collapsing shut down withdrawing and just becoming like numb those are two ways like

two protection strategies and so firstly like think which what is your default reactivity tendency what does that feel like in the Body and then from that place like once you notice the early warning signs like for me it might be oh I'm noticing this like heat in my chest I think I'm going to get angry I'm going to take a moment for myself and just like step away and and then coming back to your question meeting in a place where both of you are like grounded and Cal in your bodies and you can actually have

a conversation where that connection is maintained and tracking this is actually a really Useful Point particularly for podcasts like even right now like track in yourself like is your awareness is your attention is it more on yourself or is it more on me usually like for really empathetic people they might be entirely focused on the other person's experience this might be your you might be totally focused on my experience and you could switch that so now you're like okay I'm aware of like oh there's like a tightness in my lower back or my Throat's a

bit dry etc etc and then you can bring to kind of meet someone in the middle so you're aware of both at the same time and that speaking from that place almost like regardless of what you're saying that creates a sense of connection and speaking from uh like first person experience so like right now I'm noticing like my mouth is a little bit dry but I'm feeling cool and just like speaking from that what you're actually feeling as opposed to Projecting stories and things in the head um creates a lot more connection this is a

very long answer and it's it's it's an interesting tangent that we're going down but I think I feel like this this I like how you sort of sort of I had a bit of a a dopamine hit when you mentioned that there's these two different states because in my in my mind I've always equated um being triggered with being angry okay and I don't often get angry and so I I guess I Sort of told myself oh I don't often get triggered but actually now that you mentioned the second one in terms of like with

the draw and shutting down um I have had it mentioned to me in the past that if I'm good it it will it will feel as if I'm like a stone statue something to that something become really cold and my voice will be very calm but like the person I'm speaking to will feel as if there's no there's no warmth there's no connection using that Word connection MH um H yeah so I think that's probably my default State and so if I'm for example having an argument with my mom it is very rare for me

to get angry mhm but it's very common for me to get more into that state where I'm just like I sort of withdraw from I don't I I sort of uh disengage from the conversation is that kind of what what we're talking about yeah totally and I'm exactly the same like for for the record I my response is uh has historically for Like 25 years I was like oh I'm just a calm person I'm not like I'm stoic I don't get I don't get angry and it turned out that um I did get these like

micro frustrations but I would then kind of push it down and which creates what I call accumulated emotional debt which over time builds not only resentment towards other people and and other situations but it created this like um health challenges and just like a lack of a liveness and this is something that I see in in the work that I do that people who have a like a healthy relationship to anger there's also more aliveness more capacity to set boundaries more capacity to say no like it's actually a really healthy energy when it's when it's

not kinked and and often we learned I learned when I was younger that anger was bad I was angry and I hurt people or people were angry and they hurt me I was like okay anger is bad avoid anger at all costs and even Though that wasn't conscious that's what that's the story that I believed and so I went through these I did hundreds and hundreds of breath breath work Journeys and at some point along the way my teacher said to me you are loved in your anger and I just like I like rage came

through and then I just bowed I just like cried and cried and cried and cried and there was this like deep grief there for me because I'd I had shame around my anger for my entire life and yeah that Was was a fascinating part of my journey and and so a big part of my journey has been kind of going through these emot like anger was one shame was another and then learning to not be ashamed of Shame itself and just feeling the sensations of Shame as these like like swampy kind of like that like

uh like gunky icky things and be like oh oh that's shame like oh what does that feel like and and not not then having the the thing of like oh I shouldn't feel shame because Shame is bad but just like allowing everything to come through M nice yeah this is this is some of the stuff I was talking about with Joe Joe Hudson yesterday so I think we'll probably put this episode after that one in the in the running order but we were talking about how you know I avoid reading any reviews of my book

because I don't want to read negative reviews um and there was one time I did a podcast episode with my brother where we were reading Comments on this celebrity gossip Forum that were about me in like way yeah and I was sort of like convincing myself that I wasn't really feeling anything even though it was clear that I was like nearly in tears and he could be like like bro like come on like why are you insisting that you're the stoic Sage who never feels anything but actually come on everyone can see it I was

like oh um yeah because I think I've also drank the stoicism Kool-Aid U With a you know the the true stoics would probably say that like no this is not actually true stoicism but I you know I think I identify quite a lot with the idea that I tend not to experience negative emotions so that when I do it's like I feel the thing and I'm like oh well the story you tell yourself about the thing blah blah you know I can't control what other someone says and it's like this cacophony of voices from like

Tim Ferris and like William Irvine and Darren Brown and like Ryan holiday and freaking senica are all like in my head that's like telling me no it's all good it's all good it's all good change the story change the story change the story and then it's like oh that that emotion is gone yeah yeah gone in avered comers totally totally so so this is a really interesting um thing to to speak to which is that there's something known as the self-regulation Paradox that I talk about um and in any moment let's say Let's say like

you're reading a negative review like in certain situations it actually would be helpful to be able to self-regulate away the challenging emotion so I typically teach like breathing practices or awareness practices it can be bottom up or it could be a reframe and maybe the reframe is like oh actually some people are just like Angry all the time and it doesn't matter like either way but and that emotion starts to kind of go back down Again in the short term that can be really helpful because you can then continue doing the podcasting whatever you're doing

without any any issues yeah um however every time that you're self-regulating a way and kind of like pushing back down a challenging emotion that is adding to that pile of emotional debt that I mentioned earlier so it's like and you can imagine most of us have like 2 3 four Decades of accumulated emotional debt and this emotional debt In scientific terms is allostatic load it's basically um chronic wear and tear on the body which creates fragility in the nervous system oh this fragility leads to health conditions burnout and like chronic reactivity so you can probably

think of someone who just like you know at like a hair trigger they will freak out or they'll they go from burnout to burnout or they have some kind of chronic health condition that in my experience is is a result of this Accumulated emotional debt and so the the other path let's say in that situation is um maybe not in the moment but like later on in the evening maybe when you're with your partner you you share this thing and you allow yourself to actually like feel the thing that's there and just kind of like

we were doing in breath work right when there were lots of people having different emotional experiences that emotional debt was being like repaid okay I'm Skeptical about this kind of so you know alistic load emotional debt this all is starting to air into like woo territory and we didn't learn about any of this stuff in med school and I like to think of myself as a fairly scientific minded chap yes um I guess first question would be like you you know in terms of people who are wor who you've worked with can you give a

sense of like what are some examples of Emotional debt and how it's manifested in people's lives and what they've done about it just so I can get more of a picture in my head of like what what this actually means MH yeah so um let's see I mean some so one example comes to mind I I work with startup Founders in a coaching capacity and one of my former Founders went through a pretty intense burnout experience while he was working on his startup probably you know not not Uncommon and although and and that burnout then

led to a an eye condition where he almost went blind what it led to that condition it's it's it's challenges like point of exactly what it was but he the the blindness and the eye condition started directly after the burnout so in his mind it was like this was related I was so stressed my body was shutting down and even my ey side it's good okay and and and this is the thing like we know there's all these Correlations between amount of stress you experience and loads of health conditions even though no one's quite been

able to figure out exactly why something about inflammation something about immune system something about something or other but we know that there's a really strong correlation between this stuff so there's a study that I I can share for the show notes in the list that shows um I believe it's uh an increas in static load has a 60 % Increase in energy expenditure in the body meaning that 60% more energy is being wasted just by kind of keeping this alos static load going yeah it's like walking around with like a big ass backpack on your

exactly like big full of rocks yeah exactly so in the case of the startup founder um he both was really afraid of of like his own anger and so like working through that created a lot of liveness and then once that kind of that cycle went Through we then went through a phase where he actually he was afraid of going back into the burnout again and he hadn't allowed himself to feel the the hurt and the the pain in that burnout himself he' just been disassociated like the entire the entire time during the burnout and

that that's another common thing and it connects to the the numbness that people feel but people just check out of their bodies and they they they lose they lose connection so By kind of working through and allowing him to like feel the the shittiness that was there during that that burnout experience he then stopped being afraid of it and was able to kind of continue working in a in a healthy way sick we just going to take a little break from this conversation to talk about brilliant who are very kindly sponsoring this episode brilliant is

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this episode and let's get back to the conversation okay so if if this happened to be a one-on-one coaching session okay where you know you charge a lot of money For this I'm sure but like if I were to hire you to help me work through stuff is there anything we can do on air that could demonstrate this for me like how might I understand where are my emotional where's my emotional debt and what can I do about it kind of thing interesting so what would you say um what is something that you're like challenged

by or or stuck on slightly like what kind of comes to mind can be can be an area that you're you you don't Show up in a way that you would like to show up better it could be you know where you get that kind of like withdrawn response yeah okay so if I'm you know in my relationship with my mom if I'm doing something that she disapproves of MH then I kind of feel a bit like weird yeah I think yeah so I mean firstly I think our parents are the most like juicy source

of triggers And and there's another frame that I want to mention as well because I think it's important is that um at a certain point when you start to go down this like I think of it as like an inner Adventure it's like really understanding like how we work and how we operate and and it can be really challenging at times and parents are often like the kind of boss level version of that Adventure so that's that's the context um the second thing Is that at a certain point when you feel that kind of kind

of shutdown response trigger in your system that's actually in some ways it's like a gift because your your mom let's say is perfectly positioned to kind of elicit that trigger and that that way in which you are not free that way in which you are kind of contracted so that all of that is is kind of framing in terms of how you could approach that situation um it it kind of It comes back to having that interceptive awareness to to be able to notice like ideally in the moment when you start to feel a certain

way as opposed to like 4 hours later like oh I just realized I've been shut down and Frozen for all of this time so part of the work is like decreasing that halflife so that you can catch it earlier nice once you catch it yep the second stage is creating a sense of um the best phrase for this is embodied Safety which sounds a bit woo but it's basically do I like like how how safe do I feel in my body and what can I do to or maybe more at ease ease is another way

of putting it so it could be like a relaxing song it could be sitting on a sofa it could be um just stretching kind of getting more into your body and then once you feel once you feel like you're kind of regulated in your body then lying down bringing back an image of the specific Thing that you said to your mom or that your mom was disapproving of and like bringing that image to mind and actually tracking in your body what is happening in in this moment so a practice in in my training called sematic

surfing okay and it's it's basically so sematic means like body physical so we we could do we do this right now let's let's try it like bring to mind that image of maybe it's your mom's face disapproving of Ally for something that Ali's Done once you got that image drop down into your into your body and just notice what is happening like what are you what are you tracking right now what are you sensing what do you feel is there like is there a tightness is there a heat is there a what are you what

are you noticing is there anything that feels like it might be connected to that image yeah there's a sort of like pressure type thing over here Um yeah like when whenever I've done these sorts of exercises which been like like three times in my life um I've always kind of felt like but like I mean I've just had some water so maybe I'm just getting on an abdominal attension just had some water kind of thing but there is a sort of tightness around here is okay it's also roughly about the stomach is so don't know

um yeah okay and so if you if you stay with that for a moment like stay And you maybe you can like put put a finger on it Y and just like bring a sense of like uh whatever your um whatever your sense of like loving presence let's say like like say there's a part of you that is just bringing a sense of of like appreciation for that part and just notice if anything shifts in your in your experience feel like it's gone it's cuz the water's probably gone through my yeah Yeah so like is

is this what people are doing like I've seen Tony Robbins and other type this sort of sort of like bring out the emotion imagine it's in your hand now imagine pouring love into that emotion and all that stuff and it seems to have like a visible effect on people and I always been a bit like is that person a stoe no surely not surely not like is that kind of what we're getting at yeah so I mean in the breath work Circle that we did yesterday it's Probably a good example where the the breath work

technique just creates intensity in in the nervous system which and it also shifts the State of Consciousness which allows that subconscious material to arise and okay that was a lot of a lot of wounding stuff what do you mean by State of Consciousness okay so by breathing in in this circular way it creates changes in the blood chemistry yeah so you're hyperventilating so your CO2 levels go Up go down go down go down yeah off off gasing and sometimes it can be tingling and this like the the actual scientific mechanism hasn't been like hasn't been

shown but from a kind of like and like n of n of probably like 200 this is kind of what happened like I've seen this many many many times um in that state memories or um these un incomplete reflexes is probably the most technical way of describing it okay so every time we an emotion arises it is a Mobilization response in the nervous system what can happen what do you mean by mobilization so it's like like like when you're running away from a tiger that's a mobilization okay your system is mobilizing to do something okay

cool what happens when we make any of these emotional experiences bad or wrong is that kind of cuts it short so it's like this mobilization response doesn't get to complete it is an incomplete reflex incomplete response so it's Like if showing if if if I'm if I as a kid I'm feeling anger towards an authority figure and I get told that it is not allow it's it's I'm I you know I can't express anger towards any authority figure because that would be disrespectful y then there's an incomplete reflex there totally totally and every time subsequently

every time that that thing arises it's then cut off and it's just like like no not now so should on that note should we let kids Scream at the teachers and stuff or if they're feeling anger or like like what uhhuh yeah yeah so I mean I think the way that Joe Hudson raised his kids is a great example where um his his his daughter I I believe he's told me the story she comes home and she gets angry as soon as she gets home because that's where she feels safe it's in the house where

that anger is actually welcome and so Joe and his family create a space where that anger can actually be Released and it's she's mad at a teacher she's not releasing it at the teacher cuz that would be destructive she's really releasing it in a safe place being able to totally rant and Rave about the teacher totally and ideally in a school situation there would be spaces where Ang is welcome not at other people not at teachers or at others but just where they can be angry and just be with their anger ah okay yeah okay

that makes which I think would incidentally make The world a much better place okay nice so it doesn't come out kinked in in other situations okay so so we've got we're talking about incomplete reflexes there's like an emotion that wants to mobilize through the body like anger or like grief or sadness or shame or whatever in the case of my reading negative reviews there's an emotion that wants and I'm like yeah pushing it down to totally with the pism uh head top down approach Yeah and the the art of this is is really just getting

out of your own way so so maybe a question for you right now would be like um what would be a reason that you wouldn't want to feel or or read and feel the associated emotions of the negative reviews because I'm worried they are right okay okay and what would that mean that would mean that oh good question what would that mean that would mean that if they were right yeah if Your book was actually yeah if my book was actually that means that this thing that I've poured loads of time and effort into was

actually waste of time and I should never have left my stable career in medicine to be a YouTuber and to have the audacity to think that I could do this thing where I share my thoughts and publish them on the Internet or in book format and stuff and therefore the life path that on doesn't Make sense and something yeah mhm mhm beautiful it I mean it sounds like there's a bunch of different emotions that could be connected to that or or like feeling states that could that could be connected to that story of like I'm

doing the wrong thing potentially yeah may you know maybe like do I made the wrong decision maybe that's kind of what it could come down to yeah made the wrong decision I'm stupid I'm dumb dumb For thinking this could be a this is weird like I don't I don't usually have uh what others describe as negative selft talk but when I think as we're as we're working through this I'm like oh yeah yeah obviously that's the reason I'm not reading these these negative reviews and why I never look at that on that CB gosip Forum

whatever because like if someone tells me that I have a slow typing speed it's it's like it's just obviously not true but if Someone tells me that like actually the stuff that I write is uh really just recycled from other people's stuff and have no original thoughts of my own and like you know what does a 29-year-old have to teach anyone else about productivity and like he should have stayed in medicine like man had many of these thoughts many times yeah yeah yeah beautiful I mean I I think it's it's so it's a really helpful

um almost like uh guide to to See what criticisms of you actually land because like the the slow typing speed thing it's just like watch like you just don't care it's like like all right doesn't matter but if something actually lands in you that's that's it's like it's like a signpost that there is something in there like some another way to put it is like some part of yourself if you subscribe to the inti and family systems model has been exiled so it's like there's like an exiled part there Yeah that is wanting like love

and attention that's you can basically like boil it down to that and that Exel part will usually have an Associated emotion so if you think of you know Ali as like multiple Parts multiple ages when someone wres a cutting book review that actually is like articulate and like makes a good point yeah there that's like hitting a part of you yeah that is then like and and you're so the invitation there Is whether you do the sematic thing or whether you go into your room is just like welcoming that part whatever it's feeling if it's

feeling shame if it's feeling helplessness if it's feeling like all of the shitty stuff that we we typically spend our lives avoiding like the freedom and feeling good good is ironically on the other side of feeling those discomfort like feeling the discomfort and the the secret like the the maybe the joke at the end of this is That the feeling that we think is bad is actually our resistance to feeling it it's not the feeling itself it's the discomfort is caused by my resistance to not feel anger that's and that's what most people think it

was anger like when anger is actually welcomed and clean it's like determination it's like like no it's like Clarity and so like it it takes time to kind of like iron out those Kinks that we all learned throughout our British Childhoods where we you know we both come from an emotionally repressed culture I think that's a big part of why I got into this work is I I was numb from the neck down for the first 27 years of my life nice same great and it's been first 29 it has been an adventure kind of

thoring my internal experience in the last years yeah sick okay how how did you get into this like how did you end up being like the guy for this sort of stuff the guy yeah so I Mean I I had a um I had a a kind of tragic journey and and the the the commonality that that I've noticed between um people in this world and honestly people kind of carving their own intentional careers is there was some form of Crisis that was like the the thing that caused them to question everything they were doing

um with our friend Paul it was Lyme disease with other friend that's burnout with some friend it's like getting a divorce For me I was engaged uh to an amazing actually Junior medic Junior doctor her name was Sophie she had bipolar disorder and on October 23rd 2017 she took her own life and that that Journey that followed into and through grief was what unlocked all of this for me like I didn't even realize that I was someone that didn't feel my emotions any way I I just you know I was a happy guy I was

chill I was I was calm I was generally pretty Easygoing and something about the both like having the courageous curiosity to feel into the grief as it was arising and and allowing the what felt like these like tidal waves of emotion to kind of um it felt like they were like obliterating part of me in a way they were because you know I had this like entire 5-year vision of what our life was going to be was like mapped out you know we were going to have kids we were going to move to Bristol blah

blah blah Blah and all of that was just like it was like gone and so that Journey kind of brought me progressively inwards initially meditation then breath work then plant medicine and then like deep nervous system research and Science and combining them all into a curriculum that I wish I'd had when I was you you know in my teenage years ideally wow well thank you for sharing and I'm sorry you had to go through it like I I can cannot even imagine what That's like to lose someone that you love like that com how did

how did you find out and what were the what what were the feelings kind of that were arising in you at the time that you that you were surprised by so we just um we were on a holiday in Port School climbing and um she went home 2 days early to start work again she' taken time of work it was her first day back on a Monday morning um I found out I was shaping a surfboard in Port schol and I had a phone call from uh her sister's partner who called me up told me

and I just I I collapsed into this giant golden retriever dog that was like right by there and just just sobbed um got on a plane flew home met with a family and then you know really the first like few days and weeks were just like a blur like it was it was too much to possibly take in and comprehend um and it it Really wasn't until her Memorial and like the weeks and months afterwards where there was what I what I I'm so glad that I did was basically just like stopped working for that

period of time just allowed myself to to feel to process and in those weeks and months afterwards that's when the it it kind of comes in waves I don't know if if you've experienced grief much and something about meeting specific people or like going back to places that were very Meaningful to us just like surfaced up like a fresh new wave um yeah and it's uh I I ends up giving it a tedex talk on called The Gift of grief and in that there was a point in which I was this was maybe a year

and a half later I was kneeling by her Memorial bench um in the coast of Leo V sanss in the UK and feeling the intensity of this grief like pouring through me and at a certain point it I I felt so much like joy and Bliss and love and I was like I was confused I was like but wait I meant to be feeling sad I meant to be feeling G this is meant to be a bad thing and I was actually experiencing this like just raw aliveness and sense of like wao like it just

felt like an over whing amount of love was was the experience and that kind of yeah that moment really opened me up to a lot of what Then followed of like trying to understand what the hell was happening from a scientific Perspective from a Eastern mystical perspective from my own lived experience and trying to trying to understand what was going on like like that was probably like one of the Inception moments I would say yeah wow so where did like how how did how do we how did we go from that to you becoming interested

in this the stuff that is broadly labeled woo sure yeah so I um I studyed philosophy At University I've always been just like very curious about what it means to live a good life um yeah kind of like the big question the big questions of meaning MH um I then went down a deep meditation path did you know 10day 10day Retreats spent 10 days in a dark room completely on my own why meditation like what made you meditation I mean it was kind of like this was in you know 2018 it was kind of alive

in the zge to some degree And the I guess the books that I was reading were like meditation is the answer meditation is like the path to feeling good yeah what kind of books were they um so this was like you know reading ramdas reading shinzen young who is like has an incredible scientific mind and was able to explain meditation to me in like a very non woo mystical way it's like very kind of and that's you know I I come from a background of like Appreciating s and I've I've been skeptical mind and I'd

say like my my woo threshold has been increasing gradually like over the over the years but I started out as a like firm atheist materialist just like like very skeptical of everything that iing and then um so what what was this guy's description of meditation that vibed with you that made you realize oh know something here yeah I think it was it was framing meditation as this actually Is very similar to your book it's like um here are some experiments that you can run for yourself and use your own lived experience like be like an

interior scientist right run these experiments and see what the effect is and if it works for you you know keep going or do something else if not you can ditch it there was no nothing else attached to it it's like here's something to try yeah and then I think the other the next big unlock for me was Well psychedelics was was a big piece and then doing a free diving training and experiencing breath work for the first time oh okay so free diving really connected me to interception which is this word we were talking about

where you take a a huge breath of air you start diving down underwater like pulling yourself F deeper and deeper down this was like 35 40 m underwater and as the the ocean pressure increases the tightness and tension in your Diaphragm CU your your lungs shrink to a third of the normal size of that depth and there in order to get deeper you have to tune into your internal experience and just like soften and relax oh so like that is the secret it's it's yes it's having it's taking a lot of air but really it's

about being able to equalize as the pressure increases as you go deeper and deeper so the competitive part of me was like wow if I can improve my interception and like Learn how to surrender into it I can do really well in free diving I can go down to like 40 50 meters and my my this is a bit of a long story but my teacher a fre teacher guided me through my first breath away journey and during that I had an experience of like profound Bliss grief just like intensity kind of similar to what

some people experienced yesterday that I was like what the hell was that like what the hell just happened like I want to Understand what was going on in my body and why I felt so incredible afterwards and for the next like three days wow so so your free diving instructor was did he call it breathwork or yeah he was trained separately in a yeah think it was biodynamic breath work was was his modality um okay there's many different approaches um and What's the title of that book that you read that the by the the guy

that Shin Zan yeah the science of Enlightenment I Think is one of his books okay um I also really love ramdas as well I read all of ramdas books oh yeah you recommended Chris for the mil to me and I'm still going through it ex like he's using a lot of words that I still don't quite understand and like interesting yeah and and you know his approach he was a Harvard psychiatrist essentially and so really speaks both languages in a way that that resonates okay so you get into meditation or you stop reading these Books

and you they all all roads lead to meditation pretty much uh or like um a large number of them anyway and then you start experimenting with like 10day Retreats and like the dark room stuff and then what happens on meditation specifically in in your Journey here yeah so I I actually um I started moving away from meditation I think there's a number of traps that are very easy to fall into in the meditation path there's ways in Which uh you can meditate and be in uh you know sometimes Blissful States but in a very disembodied

way so a lot of people a lot of very intellectual people get into meditation and they will still stay in their heads and be almost like ignore everything in the body which is ignoring this emotional debt that we kind of touched on earlier and so this is why I believe you see meditation Masters you know people who are like supposedly enlightened will come to the West and there'll be these like big scandals like they'll have sex with their students or they they'll deal with this it's because there's still this unprocessed emotions that are kind of

like the it's not technically true that the body keeps a score but the body is the scorecard I think that's a better way of framing it um allegedly it's actually in like the bottom of the brain stem it's like the cortical map where that stuff is stored but I do believe That meditation without a kind of sematic emotional component actually creates this like dryness and this this lack of aliveness and this lack of of connection so my my Approach now is is really trying to combine the two where there's obviously a lot of good stuff

in meditation but if it doesn't have this kind of sematic component where you're also exploring ing from the neck down there's there's a way in which you can kind of get stuck there okay so you Doubled with the meditation stuff you got introduced to breath work through the free diing instructor and you were like oh like what just happened and I had my first breath work experience which you you and Kelly facilitated yesterday yeah and I also kind of a I had the sort of um kind of vibration hypocapnic response of like the tetany kind

of thing which was like oh that was new that was interesting MH but Al as um you know towards the end of The experience had this and it's going to sound woo but like profound feeling of like Bliss and joy and that actually everything was perfectly fine as it as it was and you know I don't need to strive for money or status or all this because actually happiness is found in the present moment and stuff and I I don't know to what extent all of that was just um me sort of parting the stuff

that I've read but I did I did in in that moment have a What I can only describe as a internal bodily Sensation that that was true um I was like oh this is interesting because it didn't require any psychedelics it just required lying on a floor and like breathing listening to some cool music and I was like oh like I've long struggled to get into my body or connect with my feelings or connect with my body and all that but this experience of like an hour of breath work made me think oh is is

This what people are talking about when they say connecting with the body where it's like and like and being out of the head and I was like oh this will being out of the head me okay that's useful to know cuz I now know that like if that's the feeling that we're going for when people say get out of your head go into your body connect with your emotions blah blah blah like oh there's something here um is that kind of did that sort of vibe with your experience a minute of Breath work at all

yeah I mean I would say I say it's very similar and I mean what you just what you just said like it sounds like it was actually very powerful and there's maybe still a part of you that's like questioning the experience and like was it how real was it and that's kind of what happens when the Mind comes back online it then starts to like question everything um which isn't necessarily a bad thing it's just something to be aware of I say the Other thing that's maybe worth mentioning is I spent a lot of my

20s with this question of like meaning of like of like of like why like what is the what is the meaning of life what is the purpose of this like blah blah blah blah blah and in the state that you just described I tried asking that question and the question felt stupid it felt irrelevant it was like that is a dumb question because the the meaning was so inherent in the experience and in the Moment and in in what I was feeling and so I think that was another pivotal point for me where it helped

me to kind of soften the very heavy left brain intellectual way in which I was like firing through life which was like you know like kind of what is the purpose of this and into a much more experiential of like how can I create the conditions for these experiences that are drenched in meaning to just arise and how can I yeah create The conditions for those states of being to just be more common in in my everyday life I like that you use the phrase drenched in meaning because that was you know the phrase the

phrase spontaneously arised in me it's like everything is dripping with meaning when I when I had an iasa experience a few months ago and also sort of on this breath work thing it's like oh of course everything is Meaningful just because it is it's just like a real knowing with a capital K That that's true yeah um and how would your life be different if you were in touch with that sense on a more regular basis yeah it's a good question um yeah I have I have the memory of that sense but I'm I I

don't have the feeling of that sense um and if I were then I would be a lot more relaxed about growing the business I would probably still want to grow the business cuz why not but it would be coming from a place of True why not and joy and stuff rather than currently where it's yeah it's partly that but it's also like a sense of should a sense of scarcity and all that stuff um I would probably be more okay with everybody like eat food more mindfully and just actually appreciate the sensations of food and

stuff I'd probably give myself more time to just relax and I go for a walk around hide park or region park or something Rather than thinking the point of the Walk is to uh listen to audio books uh recite thoughts into voice pal and app that building to help create content ideas to help grow the business and get my 10,000 steps while I'm at it like which is currently how I think about going for a walk in h Park yeah um and occasionally there are moments where I'm like I'm listening to an audiobook at three

times speed while walking in High Park where I'm like hm I don't want to Listen to this audio book and I'll just sort of like put it away and try to experience the whatever nature and stuff but post breath work in like the the sort of 20 minutes afterwards as I was like walking we're in this nice Farm in Northern California at the moment but as as I was walking around and even actually this morning I had the memory of what was happening post breath work and this morning when I went out to grab My

bag and stuff initially my hand reached into my airpods and I was like hm no actually and I could almost like feel my foot on the ground and looking around and it's like such a nice day and stuff and I don't normally have that pure feeling of like oh it's such a nice day what a time to be alive yeah yeah I generally have an intellectual like oh man my life is sick like you know we made it totally GG totally kind of thing but this was like a more experiential Version of that thing beautiful

and as I say all this stuff I'm thinking like if me two years ago heard me saying this now they'd be they think I'm on drugs and off my rock and like you know what's wrong with you kind of thing so yeah I think if I were able to connect with that feeling of like everything is dripping with meaning everything is fine as it is yeah um there's never any reason to worry the universe is perfectly designed blah blah blah that Would be a nice way to live yeah how do I how do I do

that I mean it sounds like your your book and what the conclusions you came to with like Feelgood productivity was very much like the first stepping stone I'd say that there's actually an art to the feeling part of feeling good it's like easy to like feel good based on the checklist of things that you've accomplished which you've nailed like you have ticked a bunch of those boxes in a really Impressive way I I feel like the next stage is like actually receiving and feeling how good that is and how good it is in each moment

how good it is that we're in a beautiful location with amazing people with people that we love and you know that's not a journey that you know it can take a lifetime but I think that feels like the um and and there's ways that this can be practical in the same way that I think one of your takeaways was this idea of focusing on Enjoyment over optimizing certain metric and how by by focusing on enjoyment the outcomes happen anyway yeah but in in a different way and the process gets to be so much more enjoyable

and something that I think about a lot is like how can I create the conditions for my desired state to arise so a good example that everyone can relate to is like sleep like you don't do sleep no one like if I said to you like you got to sleep right now or I'm going to just like like shoot You shoot in the head like it's really hard to actually do sleep but you can create the conditions for sleepiness to arise Y and I think the same is true with creativity same is true of like

forms of productivity same is true of connection and so a question that I ask myself a lot is like how can I create the conditions for maybe enjoyment to arise and what is and and those conditions are always going to be there's going to be some internal Conditions and there's going to be some external conditions and you have you can be the architect of those and you can shape those and make it increase the the surface area for that to hit and for that to land in your life personally how do you create the conditions

for enjoyment or Joy let's say within your work and within your life yeah that's a great question I I think the the answer changes all the time and I think it's something great it's a great one to Reflect on journal on end of every week end of every every recorder um I think what comes to mind now is uh location and environment obviously matters a lot so my wife and I just moved more into the into the countryside into nature we kind of live in a canyon um really prioritizing uh meaningful connection with with other

people I think has been a big one so um starting a men's group for example um attending events like This which you know aren't easy to get to but the the reward and the sense of connection and enjoyment that comes from that is is just so worth it um and I think being really intentional around how I'm designing my days and weeks and like what my calendar looks like is actually a key piece like if if I try and bite off too much or or cram too much in it's actually very hard to find enjoyment

without some spaciousness right so so I think good It's hard to find enjoyment without spaciousness building and like really prioriti some SPAC I mean today is a great example right we've just had a really intense like 3 days like the insights per minute that were shared on some of the talks was just insane and now we have like two or three days of spaciousness to let some of that like breathe and and feel the enjoyment of all of the like nourishment that we've that we've just had um and then maybe a Third one is um

yeah I mean it comes back to coming back into my body and actually like like what is the what is the enjoyment feel like what is the actual sensation of enjoyment and and like amplifying that and you know that can even be practice it can be part of your morning meditation it can be while you drink tea or coffee in the morning after you Journal um so I I think it's just something that uh builds with time and and my experience is that my Capacity for enjoyment and joy has actually increased a lot over the

last few years and um I I I love this this quote that Joy is is the happiness that doesn't depend on what happens and so I think like having that as something that that I come back to and just what knowing what Joy feels like is it's just become more of a default state in my life very nice um what advice would you have for someone who wants to create the conditions for Joy but who has a real Job yeah difficult you and I to speak yeah my condolences um there's a belief that I feel

strongly about I have conviction in that Joy is actually our default State Joy is when the when the anxiety when the the rumination when everything else kind of Falls away Joy is just there whenever we are resisting some aspect of our experience it's very hard to feel Joy so my advice would be um to what degree can You first intentionally even you know Orient towards Joy is actually a priority like which for for a lot of people that sounds ridiculous because it's like no I have these these things I want to do with my life

like I I have ambition I want to create um so actually prioritizing Joy um and yeah I mean it comes back to allowing yourself to to feel the emotions and so so one thing that a lot of students come to me with that we we Work through in the course is struggling with anxiety which I think is you know more rampant than than ever in the last two or 3 years after covid and something I learned recently is that the word anxiety the the root or the atmology of that word is to constrict and I

think when a lot of people what they experience as anxiety is actually the constriction of a certain emotion and so by by kind of welcoming and relaxing into the feelings And trusting that you know it won't last forever I think a lot of people are scared you know if they start crying they'll be crying for the next like 5 years it's like that's that's a fear but when you're with the sensations the life cycle of these emotions is between 10 to 20 seconds it's really it's short and so I I guess like the the deepest

answer that I can give that question is Joy comes from or emerges on the other side of of being willing to Welcome and feel the full spectrum of our Human Experience nice you mentioned men's group what is a men's group what is a men's group yeah and why is it good what is a men's group um a men's group sounds like it sounds very kind of culty and broy um I've been I started a men's group gosh eight or nine years ago um it is a and I've been part of many at this point one

in Boulder right now currently for the way that I've set it up there's Six of us we meet every two weeks for two hours 68 p.m. on Thursday and it's basically a place where we can be like seen heard celebrated and challenged by four four or five other men who there is like mutual love and respect for so our our format if that would be interesting to share we we have a like a check-in round like how am I doing mentally physically emotionally spiritually there's then a uh intentions round or we actually call It Integrity

round where we say am I in or out of Integrity with myself am I in or out of Integrity with other people that can be the group can also be relationships and we then set commitments or intentions for the next two weeks so I might say I want to get my first YouTube video published in two weeks time I want to have this difficult conversation with my partner I want to blah blah blah um and then we go into a 4050 minute kind of um topic challenges Around so each each of us will say uh

number one to five how how important I I might be like I'm thinking of moving country that' be like a five out of five someone else might be one out of five we then go through kind of like The Mastermind we've just been to will share um this is the challenge I have I would love Reflections I would love advice I actually would love to just be seen and witnessed in this emotion that I'm I'm struggle struggling with and and then we Just close and we do that every two weeks for like 2 hours and

it's one of the most life-changing things that I've done honestly because it it prevents that emotional debt from building up right because often I'll go into one of these men's groups not even realizing that the stuff the stuff Al life for me and then when it comes to my turn I'm like oh actually I'm I'm feeling this thing that I'm really worried about or I'm feeling really angry or I'm like I'm Really annoyed at this person and it creates a space where again kind of like the breath where guess say where there's just this permission

and there's like a safety that everything is welcome and that's actually pretty rare in in most people's life so if you can if you can either join an existing one or even design your own and I can share a Playbook that I have for you know for this format it's uh it's it's gamechanging yeah it's it's a real real GameChanger why is it men's group rather than uh men's and women's group sure yeah um I think I think that for me at least growing up in the UK there was a um resistance to forming deep

male friendships um I don't know if this is true in your experience but I I really struggled to kind of form I guess like intimate and and deep friend friendships with with other men and there C you know you certainly could Do this with with coed with with both genders but there's something there's something about it being other men that changes the energy and particularly around the Integrity as well like there's it's hard to say but I I've really appreciated and and I think also um unless there was a deep existing connection between the people

there would be some censoring with what with what gets shared particularly in like a relational context if there were women There as well so I'm all for this format in both and it would work with just women as well I think it's just a it's a different format and it's it's what's for me yeah yeah cuz there seems to be you know a lot of Articles written about this epidemic of loneliness in particular amongst men yeah like women tend tend not to be as lonely CU I don't know for for for whatever reason women tend

to be more sociable and make friends and stuff but it seems like men Especially once you get into your 30s and 40s it's very easy for the only people you know to be your spouse and like to the only people you hang out with to be like I don't know your couple friends rather than your solo friends and mhm I wonder if that that misses out on something yeah I I think it does I mean what what's your experience with that does that feel true yeah uh not yet uh but I am quite mindful of

it so I think I've had pretty strong male Friendships for because I went to a boy school and then at Uni most of my friends were dudes uh just by the way things turned out mhm and Beyond uni a lot of the creators and entrepreneurs that hang out with also happen to be dudes because I think those those fields skew mail anyway so it's like I feel like I've got a good a good group of male friends but now being in a relationship where you know if I want to get married And stuff uh where

it becomes less I guess relationally acceptable to be always on Lads trips and stuff like that like I I I can see a lot of my male friends who've gotten married in particular who then stop hanging out with the boys especially when kids come in and I'm like okay that's a a default inertia that is basically going to happen unless I do something about it and so I'm trying to figure out like I like the idea of men's group totally and I think there's something powerful about committing to that group for the long term as

well like I've it's been challenging with the amount that we've moved in different locations but I would love to be part of a group that's together for like 8 10 12 years and and I think that there is something um different between like hanging out with the lads and like a kind of like a men's group like they may they might be the same people but in that space there's an Explicit permission for the the deeper vulnerable things to be shared that in a lad trip you're probably not going to talk about and I think

that's where the real juice is it's it's like explicit permission to to say the thing that's scary and to actually ask for support which is really hard for most men because we want to be seen as being strong being independent like I got this yeah but actually we we all need support in different areas right and and and Asking for that support and and giving that support is often what creates connection which is what everyone is like at like freaking stared of that's the the the nourishment for most people is is creating that connection yeah

that's so true um yeah sometimes I will uh I'm you know hang hang out with a lot of Greater entrepreneur type people and one thing that I notice is some have a significantly Higher um ability to be vulnerable than others and those are the people that I want to hang out with more mhm cuz if someone if I kind of get the sense that someone's fronting or like you know they might say to me that like hey the YouTube channel sucks and they're failing at it but then when another bunch of another few creators arrive

at the table they it's it's suddenly like they're like trying to impress people by being by pretending they have their Together when really they don't I'm always like bro like you don't realize that actually you opening up about how much imposter syndrome feeling or how much imposter syndrome you're feeling about how much you hate your analytics or about how how you thinking of quitting YouTube is actually what everyone else is think as well and it really connects people whereas when you have this front of like I've got my together no one connects with That yeah

it's like this it's like this armor that that create that creates that like barrier between people I mean this weekend's a great example right where Joe opened up with an exercise that was like basically eye gazing with a stranger sharing what is most scary for you in that moment and that that and then you know the breath work that we did yesterday and the day before there was a real sense of like like a Vibe shift right before and after of like After this it's like wow and then the quality of conversation and the things

that people shared about what was actually going on below like the surface level Persona stuff that we all like put out to the world and that's that's I think part of what made this this weekend so magic yeah definitely um I took some inspiration for you for from for from you for this men's group thing and I started a men's Mastermind uh a couple Months ago in London cuz there's all these Mastermind groups and stuff that happen in the US but there are so few that in Europe in the UK it seems um and so

initially we were we me and a friend Chris uh who's been on the podcast we were thinking oh we should start our Mastermind and then we were as we were making the the the invite list we thought you know what actually let's make it a men's Mastermind and it's not because we hate women or any any of that It's just cuz there are so few opportunities to hang out with a group of guys who are all facing similar challenges where a lot of the conversation you know half of it was about business and the other

half was about like life and I agree how did they been even a single woman in the group people would have been a lot less comfortable sharing struggles they're having in their relationship for example cuz then there's always this sense of Like it just feels feels kind of weird yeah yeah but that was really effective so thank you for the inspo amazing I'm stoked that you're doing it yeah I hope it continues and I I The Playbook that I created I designed to be open source so I like I would love if 5,000 men's groups

were created as a result of this conversation this Playbook and and passing it out there because it's it's so easy easy it's such a low lift anyone can do it and it it's it makes such a Difference nice we'll put a link in the show notes and video description uh is there an easy URL for this or something or is it like a funky weird it's a Google do so funky weird URL cool we'll put a link in the video description that's all that's all good um what have you personally seen as the differences between

yourself how how old are you 35 35 35 so age 35 versus age like 25 in the last 10 years as you've been on this Arc of M personal development obviously A 25-year-old is quite different from a 35-year-old but I guess what what are some of the key differences that you would have been surprised by age 25 that you are you are right now yeah I mean holy just I I feel like it it feels weird to say but I feel like I'm a just a different human or a different just a very different personality

and type of person than I was eight or n years ago um I think some of the ible shift that I can point to Um there's a sense of like may maybe one of the bigger shifts is the sense of like deep trust in myself and a and a trusting of the the the wisdom or or whatever it is that's coming through me if it's an emotion if it's an idea if it's a thought like the trusting that like this is something to pay attention to and that actually I can show up in spaces where

whether it's this podcast or whether it's like an unknown group of people that like like Like I've got this there's a sense of like like I'm good and and there's there's so much more ease in my system I would say like in my my 20s I went down the startup path we raised funding you know we did the whole startup thing went through Tech Stars and there was this sense of like ambition but it was really me trying to prove myself to other people and being like I am I'm worthy like validate me like we

raised all this money etc etc And maybe the most concise way to frame it is that that ambition went away for like two or three years actually during the the grief process but on the other side it's almost like it's almost like the fuel source got got changed so like when I was younger the fuel source was mostly if I'm honest oriented towards toward validation but and like having an impact right but that having an impact was like me me wanting to be seen and look good and I think now it's shifted Much more to

I my Baseline is I'm inherently good like life is amazing and and I feel excitement to do these creative projects to teach in the world like I love teaching the work that I'm doing with nervous system Mastery is just is like so enlivening and I keep learning from it and it becomes a becomes my vehicle for having interesting conversations for developing new Frameworks and techniques and doing things like the breath work that we did Which actually has this like I feel like I'm deeply of service I guess and that that feels very nourishing to me

and so yeah I I think the ambition is is still there may it maybe it's even higher than it used to be but it's like what is fueling that ambition is now is now very different I'd say so let's say someone's listening to this and they feel like yeah what's fueling them is desire for I don't know status or to be seen or to be validated or whatever are There any quick routs to getting off that mountain and you know moving on to the proverbial second Mountain where the fuel is service rather than status yeah

yeah go through a crisis yeah quick way I mean we I I joke but we we used to I used to run a um accelerator program called escape the city and we would joke that our purpose was to accelerate people into their first called life crisis and something about that actually really humbles people um so yeah I'm not Saying like create the conditions for a crisis but like like a crisis is definitely something that can can drop you in um more broadly I I mean I think contemplating death is obviously a good one that I

know you've spoken about like if you think about in the long run think about your eulogy think about how would you want to look back on your life like what would make your 8-year-old self happy and what would make your 80-year-old self happy I think that's Always a good frame of like where where am I coming from and and not judging the way that you're like not judging the fact that part of you wants to be seen inv validated but it maybe the the the real hack there is like what is the what is the

thing that you want that's beneath that what's the thing that you want beneath having 50,000 YouTube subscribers or 10 million in Revenue like like what is that a surrogate for or or like what what is what is the Feeling beneath that that this goal you think this goal would give you but you can actually give yourself in a much easier way oo that's really nice want the feeling beneath the goal but I think the goal would give me but I could give myself so I mean what what would be that like right now you want

um your business to make 10 million in Revenue each year what is the feeling that let's say 6 months from now you hit that you nailed the goal yeah how do you Feel the first word that comes to mind is safety interestingly because I have in my mind the idea that if we can get the business to a point where not even 10 million it could be a lot lower than that but if the revenue generation of the business is not actually tied to me as an individual coming out and sitting in the chair and

making YouTube videos and doing podcasts M that is now a true sense of safety whereas the sense of safety I feel right now is a it's only the illusion of safety because it's it's like well if I stop making YouTube videos the whole thing comes crumbling down mhm and I've never really sat down and run the numbers on this to see like okay how much money do I actually currently have and even if I did stop making YouTube videos would have come crumbling down etc etc never really sat down to run the Maths on that

so the first thing that comes to mind for 10 million is safety the other the other thing and I I I I I kind of flip-flop between how much of it is safety oriented versus excitement oriented it's just that it's just kind of fun it's like you know I play Horizon forbidden West on very hard difficulty and once I beat the game in very hard difficulty I'll probably switch to New Game Plus and play on Ultra hard because like why not it's like it's like the Same video game the video game of Entrepreneurship which is

really fun just played at a higher difficulty level where the stakes are higher and as long as I can approach that with more of with this sense of joy and like actually I'm I'm loving this process then H 10 million is 10 million is is is an arbitrary goal great let's go for 20 let's go for $100 million exit just CU why not it's just kind of fun totally and over time I think I've shifted more From wanting Safety and Security more towards that excitement and joy from just playing the video game at a higher

level but there's still definitely a part of me that has that desire for safety if we can like make the revenue to De correlated with me all that all that kind of stuff yeah yeah so I guess I'm chasing in a way a sense of safety but also in a way a sense of progress maybe yeah growth yeah yeah beautiful I I mean just to reflect that back like it Sounds like you're both both of the fuel pipes are driving you right now there there is this side in which there's like playing the infinite game

just because it's fun exciting and you just love doing it and like why not go for 100 million like that feels great um and there's also this piece around seeking that sense of uh deep embodied safety which I'm glad you mentioned that word because it's actually what is often underneath a lot of people's desires to Make money is a sense of I want to feel safe and what I would offer is that there's actually no amount of money that will make you feel safe internally there are I've seen them there are billionaires out there who

don't feel safe in their body they don't feel like they have enough money they feel like it could go go away tomorrow it could be killed and that cultivating that internal safety is a it's an in a game like like that is that is where the Interior work gets done part of it is the emotional work and you know frankly part of it is um this is one of the things that shifted for me actually I didn't used to feel safe in my body and now I feel deeply grounded and um there is a way

in which breathing down into the lower like lower band of your belly where a lot of the parasympathetic fibers are it creates a sense of embodied safety there is a way that you can breathe that you will feel safe in The moment and this is actually underneath a lot of what I teach like a lot of the the workshops that I do facilitation it's about helping people it's about creating the internal and external conditions for people to feel safe and it's uh you can think of it as like a muscle that can be trained um

so like I'm glad you I'm glad you mentioned that and my like challenge for you would be how can you increase how safe you feel regardless of The income for your business because you know we could tear apart that goal where like even if your entire business disappeared next week you're a smart dude like you could find a way to make that back pretty quickly and there's another scenario where you could be making 20 million a year and something could happen and it could all get taken away so really like cont and you know maybe

we can talk about this more off camera but like there are things you can Do that can really embody that sense of safety which most people project onto money like money is just like some people project like power some people it's safety and money becomes this thing if I get enough of it I'll feel safe and that story is bollocks M there is some truth to that that that story though like you know if you're struggling to pay the bills then getting more money makes you feel like more safe in that sense that you don't

have to Worry about where rent's coming from so where's the where's the point where it tips over yeah so actually I don't you know like I've met people in um on the streets of Sri Lanka and on the streets of uh like people who have literally almost no money at all but they feel safe like often they have relationships and they have connections and they have community but they have materially very very little money now I'm not I'm not saying There is anything at all about money is great I love making money but this the

safety actually isn't correlated oh that's controversial H yeah cuz I guess when when when we were doing the breath work yesterday one of the things I felt was a sense of safety I me I wouldn't quite have described it as that but like now that I think back to it you know we were this beautiful Barn the the Sun was shining there was there Were trees outside and I was thinking you know if I lost all my money I just sat in a I just had like a wooden cabin to live in where I could

just write and make videos mhm life would be pretty goddamn good and I was like huh I don't need a lot of money for that and it kind of made me realize that like I had this deep sense that my happiness is actually completely decorrelated from money and Status like I could lose all my subscribers overnight could lose all the money overnight and actually like in that moment I felt very safe in my body and I guess over time that's is that the sort of feeling that you have all the time I mean maybe not

all the time but a lot of the time yeah a lot of the time for sure um and at the same time like playing the infinite game of growing businesses and creating and doing awesome videos that's Amazing too and that can kind of add to it but I think the point of like really questioning and like deeply questioning for yourself like is that connection true is is pretty profound or it can be one of the things um you know you work with a lot of startup founder executive type people do people ever worry that if

they become all nervous system mastered they're going to be so Zen to the point that they won't actually have any ambition to do big Things in the world or whatever for sure I mean that's a huge a huge concern I think people are afraid they're going to lose their Edge because up until now they have been driven by that like anxiety or fear or need to prove desire to be validated Etc um and you know some very successful people are but in those cases um I wouldn't want to swap places with with many of them

because often it's their relationships it's their health it's their internal State their Internal monologue that suffers and you know most people can think of public examples where where that would be true um I've worked with the the CEO and founder of a rocket ship company who kind of went through this journey himself his name is Ben I'm sure he wouldn't mind me naming him and he uh he has become a far better leader of his company through doing a lot of this work like he he um there's something that I believe that like the nervous

system of An organization is is a mirror or is a reflection of the nervous system of the leader and so as he became more grounded more centered made decisions from a clear intentional place was less reactive the business outcomes were fantastic um another example that comes to mind is Joe Hudson who you've just had on the podcast who I would say Joe is one of the most ambitious people that I know but Joe also isn't being driven by anxiety fear and scarcity greed like Any of those things so there are plenty of examples in both

camps and I would rather kind of focus on the the the enjoyment and the joy and trust that the the other like material external things will come into your course which they are for me like I've had an incredible couple of years and it seems to just like it's going in an amazing Direction and do you do yoga and how does yoga fit into this world of like stuff that we're talking about interesting so Traditionally yoga was the ASAS was seen as a means of creating the conditions for meditation to be easy that is like

one of the foundational principles of ha yoga um there are certain postures and movements and like uh ways that you can do poses which will shift the state of your body so to give an example back bends can be activating they stimulate the sympathetic nervous system forward folds especially if they're held for like two Or 3 minutes they're very relaxing and and calming so if you're uh if you're looking to let's say downshift and relax doing something like pigeon pose or just like holding onto your feet and maybe even doing some humming at the same

time is a great way to downshift at the end of the day um I I still practice yoga every you know every two or 3 Days part of it is just to feel good in my body and part of it is for that like nervous system shift As well nice and so like you know this bucket of like yoga meditation breath work psychedelics um energy there's like this whole starter kit which becomes has like a whole spectrum of it where you can go really woo and then you know there's more like socially acceptable woo and

like you know something like uh meditation is not really considered woo anymore but it was it would have been 20 years ago it would Have been a while ago like is all of this stuff leading to Enlightenment or some like where's this all going where's it all leading cuz I cuz you can imagine a world where and I'm sure you know people like this who are so in the weeds of the stuff um going after energy healer this energy healer that like doing all the meditation practices like what does it all lead to what's the

point yeah so it's a great question I think that is up To frankly everyone to really decide for themselves there is a way in which um like barley for example we've both been to Barley barley is like an an adult woo Disneyland like you can do like breath work Cambo like sound healing like all the things and whilst I think there's a time and a place for like experimenting with all of that you can also kind of get stuck on the merry ground of just doing doing the things over and over again I think the

the key thing is to is To actually have that experimental mindset like like form some kind of hypothesis of like if I do breath work four times a month uh in this way like how do I feel afterwards is this something that actually serves My Life um and keep running those experiments for yourself tracking how it changes your internal State and I think the same is true if any of these modalities whether it's forms of meditation whether it's entheogens PL medicine men's group Breath work it it's really like like what like what is it that

you're looking to feel more of and is this supportive and and and the real um like is it working is like how do you then show up in your life and in your relationships afterwards I think that is like the most honest measure of is this working so for me doing hundreds of breath work Journeys in a three or year period that had dramatic changes on how I showed up in relationship with my net Wife and allowed us to get through some of the like really Rocky periods early on and stay in love and connection

and kind of get to the other side and and build that trust so that would be and and I think this especially applies to you know plant medicine IAS become very popular these days it's very easy to get hooked on maybe even addicted on chasing those Peak experiences because Peak experiences feel good Y and if when you come back down nothing has changed if Nothing has literally rewired in your nervous system that hasn't integrated then you can keep doing that until the day you die and and nothing changes and so it's it's really important and

that's where the spaciousness comes in that there is time to actually integrate reflect on feel the changes of this this this thing that you did whether it's a meditation a treat or breath work or whatever and be like okay how like do I feel different to last week did anything Change and and trust your own experience nice I like that that's kind of how I approach all personal development and productivity advice as well experimental mindset great you know what let me try working out every morning for the next month and see how that compares cool

let's try doing it in the afternoons or evenings oh the morning is way better because in the afternoons and evenings I just don't do it okay morning it is fantastic let me see what it's like you Know if I were to write my goals out every morning cuz some I heard someone say that's a good idea oh that actually really works for me because it helps me feel more connected and more purposeful in whatever I'm doing nice let me try the pomodora technique I don't really like 25 minutes I prefer 50 you know that kind

of thing yeah and you know one thing with our new product the productivity lab productivity lab.com uh one thing that we encourage uh with our Our students is you know don't take anyone's word as gospel and especially not mine uh cuz like you know the law of equal and opposite advice something that works well for one person the exact opposite thing will work well for another person mhm and so what really trying to get our students to do it to encourage is this experimental mindset with anything related to any advice at all it's like try

it out see if it works if it does great if it doesn't great That's fine yeah beautiful beautiful I love that and the thing that I'd add to that and this is maybe something that's changed for me is when I'm looking at the results of my experiment I am tracking my like my interceptive response as much as I'm tracking Excel as well so if something let's say I'm thinking about taking a new project I will be like does that feel like expansive and exciting and interesting or does it feel like there's some kind Of contraction

like oh like maybe not and even if I don't know why I will take that data from my body into consideration yeah and there's you there's actually four times more neurons going from my body to our brain then from our brain to our body it's like a super highway going this way and like one lane of traffic going this way and I think that's it's a helpful reminder that actually our body is tracking so many more things than we're consciously Able to process m so I that's like so if you're if you're running an experiment

if you're not actually taking in all of the data coming your way then it's a shitty experiment yeah damn that's very good I'm going to start doing that yeah cuz I almost never asked that I I I think I subconsciously do it but not consciously in the sense that I have found that having a team Retreat where we all get together once a quarter is expensive but It's also like really enlivening in like a feeling easy kind of way right right right and even if we can't measure its impact on the bottom line it's like

well it's enlivening in a nice way so we're going to do it totally totally there's like one frame for that is like head hot gut like how does it feel in the head how does it feel in the heart how does it feel in the gut and they might have different answers you can Journal this down so this nervous system Stuff if someone has gotten to the end of this episode what are some tangible practical actionable things that you I or anyone else could do to help I don't know uh shift our state towards something

that's more productive or like more intentional towards the thing we actually want to be doing yeah beautiful so um let's see H yeah I have a practice I call if this then breathe so if like like if this and that like if blah it's like This automation thing if you feel uh lethargic and sleepy do express your breath if you feel anxious and overwhelmed do breath of calm and we can maybe demonstrate the breath of calm now as an example yeah okay great so get comt in your seat kind of actually feel your body feel

your butt on the chair and we'll begin with with a very brief uh awareness practice so and you Can do this if you're watching or listening get comfy in your chair you can have your eyes open or closed for this whichever you prefer and start by just being aware of the space behind you so like being aware of in your case the Rocks behind noticing that there is even space behind you being aware of the space behind you and now awareness of the space below you feeling gravity pulling you down feeling your butt on the

Seat and finally above you awareness of the ceiling just feeling this like expansion in this like awareness bubble around you now and we'll start off with a couple of sigh so full breath in and then sigh on the exhale nice one more beautiful all right and so opening up the eyes just to watch the demonstration so going to do something called alternate nostril Breathing this is one of the fastest ways of activating the parasympathetic I.E relaxation nervous system it creates measurable changes in blood chemistry um those changes in the endocrine system then make their way

into the nervous system which then changes the thoughts and feelings that we're having and that cycle kind of continues so do this by raising right hand your thumb's going to cover your right nostril this ring finger is going to cover your left Nostril and we're going to be breathing to count of inhaling three holding three exhaling six and then swap so 33 so covering the right nostril inhaling three left two three holding both 2 3 exhaling right 2 3 4 5 six inhaling right two three holding both 2 3 exhaling left 2 3 4 5

6 one more round inhale left two three holding both two three exhale right 2 3 4 5 6 lowering it down and then we'll finish with uh two single breath hums inhale all the Way and then hum on the exhale [Music] last [Music] one and just take a moment to close your eyes and just notice if how you feel internally has changed at all maybe there's like more spaciousness behind the eyes and see if you notice any different difference in your state yeah I actually Feel more want to use the word light but the word

light is an imprecise word but yeah light and yeah like there's more more like space around me or something or that like my my awareness has expanded or something yeah great yeah beautiful and that was like what a minute seconds Y and so you can obviously do a few more rounds you can Combine them you can just do one of and I can link to some of the practices that people can follow follow along to if they want to try it okay so where in what context might I use this yeah thing so um I

mean I've used it sometimes like intense social Gatherings I'll do it in the bathroom I've used it before going on stage for talks almost always before podcasts when I'm at Zoom at home um and then so because it gets you more relaxed yeah it kind Like if if there's a lot of like energy in my system that's like let's say I'm nervous before like an important interview then it helps to like calm and ground the energy and and like you said there's this sense of like expansiveness and lightness that is there so I can think

more clearly and not be like H yeah cuz this feeling of like H when the the awareness is contracted is like it's really hard to think clearly be productive feel good that constriction Like is the opposite of what you're going for so these practices help to feel like ah I feel like I feel more easeful I feel good I feel just like relaxed oh that's great this super Vibes with my whole Feelgood productivity thing cuz like you know it's like the evidence shows that when we're experiencing negative emotions it constricts our attention and everything which

is occasionally useful if you're running from a tiger but not normally Helpful chronically exactly and if we're feeling positive emotions that expands our awareness and helps us be more creative and think outside the books and feel less stressed and there's like they've done studies where there's like measurable differences in people's heart rate breathing rate like physiological parameters by virtue of watching a nice film uh a feel-good movie clip rather than something that makes them feel bad it's like H so cuz people have often Asked me it's like okay well how do I actually do that

if I have a day job or whatever if I can't control my calendar and I've never really had breathing exercises as part of my repertoire but I can I can feel the impact where it's like oh just doing this for a minute just makes me feel lighter and a bit more like totally totally yeah like I love that and the the feeling good piece is the releasing of the constriction that's kind of what so much it's like Whatever you can do to get out of that the constriction and what people think of going back to

what we're talking about earlier negative emotions that is actually just us constricting against the emotion in that state of like I feel relaxed and at ease the it just passes through and it actually feels good yeah so the feeling bad is the Contrition what enables us to feel good is just opening and like softening in and these breathing practices humming non-s sleep Deep breasts as well is a really powerful hubman talks about a lot like how does that work so it's um a form of Yoga Yoga Nidra or it's like I have a 14-minute playlist

where you lie down blindfold and you do a kind of guided body scan different parts of the body and a progressive muscle relaxation exercise and in 14 minutes you just feel rejuvenated like recharged re enlivened and it also builds that interceptive awareness so it's like a good practice For working that as well I'll add that to my list of experiments to try out great amazing and we'll put a link in the video video description and show notes wherever people are listening to this yeah cool um nice Johnny thank you so much this has been wonderful

uh final question is I am about to turn 30 in a few days uh any any advice wow um yeah I I would say um my reflection of VI Ali is someone who has really mastered a lot of things In like the the outer game like from like building businesses to publishing a New York Times bestseller to uh um networking with Incredible people the the invitation I would give you is is what would it look like if you were to master the inner game and like the inner world and uh yeah what experiments can you

run that would that might move you towards feeling good feeling that sense Of deep safety 95% of the time instead of 5% of the time sick that's a great question cool thank you uh where can people learn more about you and the work that you do yeah so I um I run a course twice a year called nervous system Mastery uh I also have a self assessment which is at assessment. nsasy decom which is probably the best way of getting a sense for a lot of the stuff we've been talking about and also gauging your

own Benchmark for what is your interception levels what is your self-regulation levels what is your environment like and getting like a concrete score with specific protocols that are tailored to the answer so that's probably the best place that I direct people to is assessment. ns.com nice oh that's fun I'll try that and we'll put it in the video great a video about this think um nice and on Twitter website do you like what's your yeah yeah so Twitter I'm Johnny Miller j n n y M1 l l r wish I could get the actual handle

set for conversation um I also have a podcast called cous humans um where our conversation might be coming out soon and I have many conversations about the I say that the in a game is kind of the theme of of the podcast these days lovely yeah thank you very much yeah thank you this has this has been been so great yeah it's been so fun all right that's a wrap all right so that's it for This week's episode of Deep dive thank you so much for watching or listening all the links and resources that we

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might like to check out this episode here as well which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode so thanks for watching uh do hit the Subscribe button if you aren't already and I'll see you next time bye-bye