Tom Spooner - Delta Force Operator | SRS #109

[Music] Tom Spooner welcome to the show man thanks for having me happy to be here Sean it's I'm it's a real honor to have you sitting here I truly being that going through going through your outline and the little bit of research that I did uh myself on you it's just uh wow we've got a lot to talk about you've had a one hell of a career uh in the military and um and uh I'm Just I'm really excited that you're here man and um so this has been a long time coming so absolutely and

I'm equally excited to be here too good good but uh I always start off with a with an introduction okay and so here we go retired Master Sergeant 21 years in the US Army 16 of those in Special Operations veteran of the Gulf War and the global war on terrorism 5 years in the 82nd is an infantryman 6 years in seventh Special Forces Group is An 18 Charlie 10 years in Delta as an operator assaulter and sniper 12 combat deployments one to Afghanistan 11 to Iraq 40 total months of time in combat at A Team

level yeah that is almost four years straight struggled with chem chemical dependency TBI in unprocessed trauma AKA PTSD you've been sober for 31 years congratulations I just hit two yes my wife's at almost at 14 uh married for 33 years Congratulations and uh a father of two young men and finally you are the co-founder and president of Warriors heart for the last 8 years where you've assisted 3,000 plus warriors with their healing Journey y we've got a lot to talk about yes we do but um sober for 31 years yeah I mean that's crazy isn't

it you don't uh you know and you know what I love is that conversation you know we had at Breakfast you you've been you were sober in service yeah and um and especially where we come from I don't know how it is how how your experience was but that was frowned upon right where I came from and uh I can't imagine the amount of pressure that you felt to to go tie one on with the boys you know and how like we're going to get into that but I'm really curious like how did you deal

with that because one one of the easiest Ways to deal with well first of all I mean we'll go through it like you said in the story but I I had a really solid foundation you know before I got into Spec Ops and you know and uh and all of that uh whenever it was a lot more difficult more difficult more accepted kind of deal but I also just came back to the like I'm me like yeah you know here's one right like well I don't trust anybody that I don't drink with Y you know

and then I would say well I don't Trust anybody that I haven't fought with so we gonna get over this or we gonna what you know so that's the we talked about this morning is like I didn't get sober and become a hippie you know what I mean I got sober and became even a more badass Warrior you know so that's the thing we can either sit here and pray or we can go outside and fight too that's cool I'm I'm equally uh uh you know would love to do either one so it's like so

that was what helped me balance It you know and just uh in the way I got sober and the men that I was surrounded with that were sober also that were like three jumps in World War II Medics you know what I mean four tour Vietnam Vets you know all of those guys you know what I mean with so righty so I you know I mean I I I was um was trained appropriately you know was it difficult yeah difficult at times there's some funny times and you know what would the typical response be to

well I don't Trust anybody I haven't fought with yeah I mean that really that would have thrown me back on my feet immediately yeah cuz I meant it too cuz you know I mean I'm a little on edge cuz cuz I get it I mean I was that guy at one time you know what I mean before I got sober but it usually just kind of settled things down because it put it into perspective like not that I can whip all these people's asses but I can Guarantee you wouldn't want to have to fight me

again you know so I might not win but yeah and I was absolutely willing you know it wasn't just something I was say and you know so they had to pause and be like hm okay fair enough but a lot of people that's why I always loved I never LED with it you know what I mean I let him know me especially on active duty it's like hey here's this guy's resume here's you know see what he's like on the team like okay Really wow we want this guy on the team whatever and then they

usually at some point find out oh he doesn't drink like that's weird you know or whatever and then it comes into those kind of conversations but yeah well thank you for sharing that um you know so I have a before we get two in the weeds with her story there's sure um have a I have a patreon account there are top supporters there the reason I'm sitting here they're the reason you're sitting here They I mean they're they're who helped me grow the show and so one of the benefits that I give them is I

tell them who's coming on the show early okay and um I give them an opportunity to ask a question ask the guest a question and I I thought this was a really good questions this is from uh Brian Watkins given you have two sons what's the best advice you would give them generally for life but then more specifically perhaps if going off to War What would you say to help them prevent potential future post-traumatic stress yeah I'll break it down for me like the first part give them to life which a lot of it goes

into the war piece also um but for Life uh the number one thing is is like hey be a decent human being uh you know just right off the bat like do more good than you do bad uh be as kind as you can be you know I mean just on that side of the house like be respectful you know uh and I was raised country you know yes sir no ma'am you know what I mean just so just be respectful you know of of yourself and of others um be confident uh you know is

a really big thing um and know who you are and what you stand for um that that's a really big deal especially as young men are you know growing up I mean look how long it took me to figure out who I was and what I stood for you know but but having that In mind and uh and having loyalty chain in mind like hey who who are my people on this planet like what is my priority you know and that being Families First you know and uh so that would be uh well and then

the other side of that is like uh hey you need to be dangerous uh this world is as we know not just because of war and everything like it's tough man yeah like you're going to deal with tragedy you're going to deal with loss you're to deal with uh Success you know everything you know and uh it's you got to be tough uh not just physically but mentally emotionally you know and uh I have two sons you know so so they're men so be physically fit you know to may be ready to protect um I

think that answered part of the first question definitely and then um and then when you're going if they were to ever go to war or anybody else that's going to war is like hey man you like you got to know who you are and What you stand for you know and um and then again understand the Loyalty chain the Loyalty chain is a little bit different you know uh State Side uh it was my family you know was first uh but then deployed you know the family is that's not in my picture anymore uh you

know it's buried down deep you know but what's my noil chain now is my brothers to the left and right of me you know what I mean in the American uh that I'm protecting and then the host Nation folks you know in that order uh the innocent host nation folks you know so yeah that would be having all of that in alignment and whenever it's time to fight uh you fight yeah you know and there are no rules uh and you be just as uh ruthless again it comes back to what we talked about before

that decision- making process you if someone meets the criteria you know I mean of that violence act then then there's no rules There's you know address the threat until it's no longer a threat you know and uh what about thank you for sharing that yeah what about getting ahead of PTSD so getting ahead of it that's so the getting ahead of it is a so what what everybody calls PTSD for me that makes the most sense is just unprocessed trauma uh so number one is to have tools um tools in the toolbox to add to

address all those emotions you Know me because that's really what we're talking about you know with all those kind of traumatic events postt trauma is uh you know I mean for me it was a super huge thing uh to have a power greater than myself you know to have some sort of spirituality uh you know that I can tap into uh because I don't care who you are uh in my personal experience uh there will come a day uh whenever the world the events whatever Completely overwhelms me and I don't have the my own power

you know what I mean to get through it you know I mean so I have to be able to logic says if I don't have the power to deal with a situation then I need to be able to get access more power from somewhere else whether it's religion whether it's spirituality whether whatever you know mean your ideas Concepts there's a bunch of them out there but have something you know even if it's just a belief in your Family whatever you know whatever it is greater than me when I'm feeling sorry for myself um that's that's

been a huge thing for me and then also uh don't don't wait like you said preparing is one thing like have an emotional uh toolbox you know what I'm saying like deal with public speaking you know I mean there's all these different things that you can do and all these different personal development stuff you know Online uh they call it emotional intelligence right and all these different things it's like uh and what that is is like you're dealing with uncomfortable situations you know so it's just like any kind always revert back to training obvious obviously

because the military am I trained or untrained you know if I don't have any emotional training then a hugely emotional event occurs I'm going to be overwhelmed by it you know but if I've Got some training and I've got some tools I can at least start chipping away at it you know and potentially handle it on my own you know with my own toolbox so I think that's a that's a huge thing and then obviously if I have something bigger than that um then I'm going to need assistance with it uh whether that's talking to

a buddy uh whether it's talking to again the spiritual aspect or a licensed professional you know and um like be just you know no one Hesitates to go to the gym if they want to be in better physical shape they go to the gym and they you know I mean they do all those different things um but we talk a lot about mind body and spirit you know what I mean because because I have to be strong in each one of those uh and the only way for me to be strong in those is to

train them yeah so pick out something that whatever you're into heck that could be yoga you know what I mean IT addresses and is one of the Treatment modalities for PTSD as far as accessing emotions through the body you know so uh and it's a good workout you know and all that other good stuff for you but um I get to rambling sometimes but I'd like to I'd like to chime in on that if you don't mind absolutely you know I mean when it comes to getting ahead of it you know the the the the

gwatt generations that fought in that war you and I and and a lot of the people that Have been on the show you know especially at the beginning you know like when I when I left at 2006 there were no resources there were nobody nobody was talking about this nowadays you have gentlemen and women you know who have spent 20 plus years yeah in a war time and environment you yourself a thousand a th000 direct action rates 40 months plus in combat and and there are all kinds of People with with with more war experience

than we've ever seen in the history of the country yeah and lots and lots of respective Warriors are talking about what it took them to get you know what methods they've used to get better and and you know dive into this show dive into other podcasts you know and listen to those methods and and and I would say the one commonality not not the one but a major commonality is addiction yeah it's alcohol it's pills It's it's narcotics it's all of that and most of the time when when when I'm talking to somebody including myself

I've had my own suicide attempt you know drugs and alcohol or one or the other seems to be involved oh yeah and we both come from a team environment where that runs rampid you know and and sometimes the team pushes pills on you sometimes your friends push pills on you sometimes you just get whatever happened you know the booze like get Ahead of that [ __ ] and if you get ahead of that then you're 10 times ahead of the power curve of what everybody else is going to be absolutely you know and um and

there's so many methods I mean spirituality religion um therapy psychedelics I mean um warriors's heart what Tom's doing um all secure I mean get your get your family right get your wife right get get your relationships right and and and get rooted in them before you get out because the boys Aren't going to support you man they have a job to do exactly you know and they're going to continue on that train they're not there to to baby your ass no and they don't [ __ ] get it either until they're out and so you

need to set up your new team you know before you leave and um and and get them ready to receive what's coming absolutely but um I just wanted to to chime in on that fast forward to the end of 2024 think of your goals what can you do Right now to give yourself the best chance of succeeding if you want to learn a new language you absolutely should get Babble Babel's quick 10-minute lessons are handcrafted by over 200 language experts to help you start speaking a new language in as little as 3 weeks babbles designed

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just negotiated with Iran Saudi Arabia and Brazil to drop the US dollar and most Americans including myself feel that we're in a recession right now but despite all the evidence I can't tell you what's going to happen for sure nobody can yet when it comes to your money you should understand what's at stake that's why I partnered with goldco to possibly help at times like this go to shaikes gold.com or call 855 936 gold To get your free gold and silver kit the kit shows you how to fend your money with precious metals and how

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vigilance leag gummy bears legal in all 50 states it's just gummy bears yeah thank you just candy there's there's all kinds of gummy bears you know there's a good one oh that's what they all are thank you you're welcome but um thanks but uh all right Tom let's get into it So I want to just do a complete life story on you okay so starting from childhood getting into the military and then what happened afterwards all the way up to warriors's heart and and Beyond so it be a long day but I'm 54 Sean so

we got we got and I've had a lot of experiences so yeah yeah I know you have and uh those are important to document and um I know you you know we just you have a ton of respect in the community you know and uh you know I Don't I know you probably don't want to hear this but you've been called a legend multiple you know all the time and and you just younger guys that are coming in look up to you guys that are in look up to you I mean you just you're a

very very well-respected Warrior and a lot of people want to hear what you have to say and so with that being said let's start with where did you grow up yeah before that I got to say is like I'm super proud of everything that you Just said and dead you know and um and a lot of people uh comment that I hear and get and it's a great one is is like man you're so humble you're you know what I mean you're kind your it's like absolutely I am man because I know that I ride

on the shoulders of giants like like I can't really the only thing that I can take credit for in my life life uh is my willingness and a lot of hard work uh but everything else the men in the story you'll see like the men That have been in my life those that went before me and helped me get to where I was you know what I mean that's why it's super easy for me to to be humble and grounded and and where I am and know who I am and what I stand for and

even whenever it comes to that combat time and everything man there's there's a generation of guys like you said that's in right now or that have gotten out over the last couple years that double everything that I've done Wow you I mean I mean literally so I'm proud to be uh again everything that I've done not going to minimize Myself by any means and um and I want to say that I know a lot of guys that have even more than I do and I can't wait to hear from them one day you know when

they come out so that had to I just it was important for me to put that out and um so yeah growing up so I grew up in this uh in a small town called belglade Florida have you heard of belglade Before is that south of okachobee it is whoa that's a rough Town rough Town that's a very rough Town very was it rough back then oh yeah what year what years are was uh I was born in 1970 okay so I was I was in belglade from 70 to uh 87 so 17 years I

live there wow yeah it's uh sugar cane Fields corn fields uh it's it's it's it's rough place yes it is you know uh and how I grew up is I uh uh middle class you know uh my dad worked at everybody you know was farming Of some sort you know my dad worked at um uh the Sugar Cane Mill because I mean literally sugar canes all around there and um he worked on computers even back then so that was like gen one computer kind of stuff you know and but that my that's what my dad

did he worked there um and my mom was uh uh she helped out with the schools you know with School teaching and stuff at that time too so the when I grew up my dad was alcoholic also uh whenever I was growing up wasn't An abusive alcoholic uh but you know wasn't around a lot of times just do and I don't my parents you know they they did the absolute best that they could with what they have and I hold them in no blame for my life you know they taught me how to work hard

they taught me everything that I am today you know fundamentally so um I have a younger brother and a younger sister uh my younger brother is five years younger than me and my sister is 11 years Younger than me so we had a quite the spread quite the spread there with that and um uh let's see so growing up uh man I've always wanted to join the military like my whole life uh primarily because uh two my uncle was a three tour Vietnam vet uh and my grandfather was a World War II vet were you

close with them too yeah really close my uncle uh because he was still on active duty he was just that you know me star eyed hero guy that Was you know in Germany you know whatever doing all this uh you know come and visit you know he'd bring me all my paratrooper uh t-shirts you know us paratrooper death from above you know and uh and but my grandfather on my mom's side uh was uh yeah super super close with him yeah really tight always take me fishing at all the games him and my grandmother uh

on my mother's side was very influential um my grandfather on my dad's side you know he was in law Enforcement for 35 years you know during some really really tough years uh you know he was already a law enforcement officer so they you know they kept some of them here for law enforcement and send the rest of the men to overseas you know so that was both I had law enforcement and Military on both sides of my family that made it kind of rough too as a kid growing up whenever your grandfather's this Legend you

know and you get in trouble for shoplifting Something from True Value Hardware Store you know yeah yeah did that happen yeah it happened was it worth it no it wasn't worth it man it was horrible but it was um yeah so uh yeah so that's kind of the my my family Dynamics you know at that time uh and uh what kind of stuff were you into were you uh man I love my whole life uh I love playing football uh I was this uh I was a little skinny kid you know I mean my natural

Bill build is uh You know very lean and skinny and you know and then when I was a kid I was just this little skinny kid man but I loved uh playing football um looking back on it one of the reasons why I loved it so much too is it was uh it created a construct you know there was a system there was rules there was things you could do and not do you know it was consistent it was regular CU my life was a bit chaotic growing up you know uh and I grew up

you know in the 70s and you Know and and in the early 80s you know were both parents working you know it was just like Lord of flies you know a lot of a lot of times you know what I mean with all the neighborhood kids and the older kids the younger kids you know what I mean it was a lot of survival stuff going on you know and um and again wasn't poor by any means we were just about middle class you know always had plenty to eat and uh you know then but when

um that's where I really got my Work ethic from my dad because he' worked the hell out of us you know what I mean from yard work to getting stuff done to additions and uh that kind of stuff so I've been I've been working since I was 10 years old um and and meaning working for money you know like getting a lawnmower business not a business but just cutting grass for folks in South Florida you know it needs grass needs cut two times a week you know so uh yeah so I mean I've been working

hard my whole life I mean you you grew up in a rough town did you deal with a lot of crime or bullying or there was I mean they call it bullying now you know what I mean uh and it was was then but it was just kind of how it was the older kids and the bigger kids always whipped your ass you know what I mean and you always had to figure out how to avoid them and you know mean it's just kind of like part of life like hey figure it out man like

would you Defend yourself what's that would you defend yourself yeah man we have fighting I mean violence is something that has uh been throughout my my life you know as far as that whole survive figuring out how to survive Instinct and you know back in those days like I said they didn't even use the term bullies or anything it was like well get stronger you know what I mean like learn how to fight better you know what I mean like it was uh which Was actually really good you know well I'm just curious what would

your parents I mean would you what would your parents tell you to do in those in those situations or would they even know that was going on yeah most of the time they didn't even know that was going on cuz it wasn't like some beatings you know coming home with black eyes it was just like you know a couple punches you know in the parking lot you know what I mean or get or the Smart Ones would just be All body shots you know so not to mark up the face and uh but a lot

of times parents you know I mean they they they really didn't know especially during those times I mean the kids were just kind of on their own in in everyone's household you know and we were just tearing up the neighborhoods and stuff but it was yeah did you have what was your greatest fear as a a child wow that's a good question greatest fear as a child would be the Something would happen to my mother really yeah do you know why you feared that the most um hang on a second that because I never really

thought about it what was my greatest fear because that wasn't a conscious thought that was me thinking of it right now looking back um my greatest fear growing up was that the older boys were going to whip my ass you know what I mean who just lived right across the street you know what I mean So how do you e and e around this but that was that was the the greatest uh a big fear yeah that would be at the time all right um you know do you think that your father's trouble with alcohol

affected you in any way it did we didn't have a great relationship uh growing up uh and being an alcoholic myself you know mean I understand why now you know I mean at The time you know what I mean like uh uh you know he didn't have the ability to engage in meaningful conversations you know uh in depth you know about emotions about preparing like a like what one of those questions that he was asked you know what I mean how would you prepare for something he didn't uh you know so none of those kind

of conversations he was just the rule enforcer you know what I mean his household and uh and um again no blame To him knowing what I do now but it was uh yeah didn't really we didn't have a great relationship as far as learning other than me learning how to work hard you know makes sense makes sense what about you know You' mentioned you were really into football yeah would you consider yourself an athlete back then or was it more of a hobby no I was I yeah I was an athlete uh um cuz I

I wanted to be better in football and so I hit the Weights you know at a young age you know what I mean so I hit the gym so I mean I was putting in hard work at the gym and I mean and I was in Small Town South Florida football is religion you know what I mean it is what everybody in the town talks about you know what I mean so it's it's really all that anyone ever cares about so so being good at that you know was a good thing you know and I

always you know I wanted to be stronger I wanted to be uh faster I wanted to be all those things and again I was a skinny kid so it it took a lot a lot of work so natural ability or personal Drive um I had some natural ability in there for sure I just was lacking on the size and strength uh a lot of times as far as that piece uh yeah but I was and and I got uh you know working out's always been good medicine you know for me as far as self-medication right

we always talk about everybody's got it like working Out always sorted out my emotions sorted out you know got my energy levels back down to not being like super pissed off or super sad or super anything you know just hey just get tired enough you know and you'll be kind of all right but uh and I just I loved lifting weights man you know what I mean I just loved everything about it but I always had that like I said that desire to be in the military uh which meant you had to be Strong you

know you had you know I mean like I said I'm in my 50s like Rambo was the thing you know I mean Chuck Norris like man like that's were my you know what I'm saying that's what I that's what I grew up on man and not just only did I just want to be in the military I wanted to be in the ranger regiment like you knew exactly what you wanted to be oh yeah man I wanted to be a ranger and then uh that like got solidified uh whenever cuz you know Technology was minimal

you know back then it was you know didn't even have cordless phones you know so it's uh so it was uh just magazines and articles and reading stuff about it and and TV shows or movies you know and um but then one time they had uh you know army recruiters had some guys come in and they had some Rangers come in and um and I just remember looking at these guys you know you know and there at that time you know this is Late 80s you know they're all high and tights lean you know what

I mean and uh and they were and this one guy he talked about something just this simple he was like he was a little cocky E5 you know what I mean he was just like yeah I'm a ranger you know and this is my house you know he had his Ruck on he's like everything that is valuable in my life is in that and I take it wherever I go I was like that's the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life like I want Everything that is about me to be in one pack and

that yeah mean so I was all I was all in on the ranger thing like that's all all all I ever wanted to do right what the hilarious thing about it is the one thing that I never got to do in my whole military career that's interesting I was I was uh I don't recall saying that in the timeline you was say yeah but so when when did you when did you finally enlist So uh my uncle and my grandfather being the big influencers that they are they're both enlisted guys right um and so they're

like Hey cuz they knew I I'm going to join the Army I wanted to unlist right out of high school like period in the story that's what I wanted to do and um and they both said is like hey well if you're going to join then you need to be an officer I'm like well I don't want to be an officer they're like okay okay you know cuz how I was Raised like you did what you were told by men that you respected you know and I'm like okay well I guess I'll go be an

officer which so I got some college time uh but again I was uh I was a mess man I was angry uh emotional mess you know already an alcoholic you know what I mean I was already that guy that always drank too much you know I mean you know that guy that you're like bro yeah like for real what age did that start proba 16 yeah man that was uh it was a huge part you know and U and the the thing about because it's such a huge part of the story you know all the

way to Warriors heart like as we go through the story it's like my life's work is now at warriors's heart like everything that I experienced along the way is put into practice there but like even um like alcohol man was the only thing that made me feel normal like if I wasn't drinking I was full of restless irritable Discontent shame guilt remorse anxiety panic attacks like that's what it felt like to not have a drink in me Frid all the time like all of that but it presented as like oh I'm just this shy country

boy you know what I mean he doesn't say much it's like yeah CU I had all of that going on inside of me and when I took some drinks it all just settled in and it just made me feel like how I thought you felt you Know what I mean it's like I just was normal and I could come out and play yeah and that's what made me an alcoholic you know cuz there's some people that are just drink too much and are hard Drinkers and there's alcoholics who there's a chemical reaction that occurs you

know what I mean and it's a physiological thing so if I didn't have to feel as bad as I felt with just by taking drinks then I'm going to do that as often as I can you Know and I did and I'd be lying to you if I didn't say I had a ton of Good Times drinking cuz I did you know I mean I had a whole bunch of really really good times drinking then those times got less and less and then at the end of my drinking it was nothing but bad yeah but

um but at those times yeah from the time 16 on man I was just partying you know being a teenager and drink drinking too much and so then I go to um I go to college so I was at a community college But I was participating in Florida State uh their ROTC program because they had an exchange there I didn't make the grades to be at Florida State but I was at there so I got to go through uh uh jump school so I went through Airborne school as a cadidate as a Cadet oh really

I sure did in 1989 and uh so I went to jump school and then of course like I said I already was wanting to do it and I'd been to like a rooc basic Camp you know and that was Kind of whatever okay good and um and so but then the my grades were going horribly I was getting into more trouble you know it was just bad and um so I left Tallahassee after I'd B to jump School successfully completed that and then um but I wasn't contracted and I didn't have a scholarship so I

was just this dude that had gone to air School uh so hold on so when you went through Airborne was it all Cadets or were you mixed in with active duty guys mixed in All just a regular Airborne class mixed so what was that like being being introduced to that it it was super hard cuz I was just this dumbass civilian guy yeah you know what I mean who yeah I mean I was a tough kid I was in shape and everything but I hadn't never had to do any military stuff you know like hey

when I got tired of r and I'd stop you I didn't know what it was like to like yeah if you stop running you're going to get kicked out of this course you know So having to be pushed yeah but it was um it was a lot but the cool thing about it is that Uncle of mine that he was still on active duty at that time and on my fifth jump on my graduating jump him and his best friend uh uh we got to do my fifth jump together like he was number one I

was two and his buddy was number three uh at so it was epic man you know what I mean it was uh and those guys they had been static line jumpers their whole career Vietnam Vets you know and um like you know over 200 static line jumps wow it's amazing they still upright you know yeah yeah so yeah but that it was a normal class uh went and did that and then um didn't make it there anymore uh schoolwise more trouble and so I just went to the recruiter on you got a recruiter story but

most people have recruiter stories so I'm super cocky you know what I mean I'm what 20 years old you know and um been to Airborne school You know so I'm just I was already ridiculously cocky anyway and so I go into the recruiter and I'm like hey man get me on the next thing smoking out of here um so I signed up on a 2-year 11 x-ray contract cuz again my plan was I was going to enlist got me off Pro ation early also what were you hold on what were you on probation for so

just normal redneck stuff from shooting signs with a shotgun in the city limits you Know nice yeah so so got off probation early that was a good thing but I signed up and I and I in my mind you know I mean hey I'm already everyone qualified uh I'm going to be an 11 Bravo infantryman I'm going to go to at the time they called it uh rip Ranger and Dr ation program you know and get into the ranger regiment like that's what was happening next so the recruiter so I signed a 2-year uh 11

x-ray which mean not the Identifier of what you were going to do I'm like okay what does that mean he's like yeah yeah it you'll be 11 Bravo it's just this paperwork like okay so then I'm at basic training uh while I'm at basic training uh that was in summer of 1990 Gulf War kicks off or whenever Iraq invaded weight um so that kicks off while I'm at basic uh so now you know wow every I mean like I was still in replacement whenever that happened and um so okay now that there's a war going

On and man like I said uh me and the military so at that time in my life I had read every probably every book there ever was written about the Vietnam War meaning the the guys that were in the Vietnam War you know all the Rangers all that I mean that was all that consumed you know and so in my mind like that was the deal was trying to get to war My Heroes Have gone to war this part's you know it's like you join the military it's like Yeah I want to go to go

to war and um so that kicked off and man when I joined the military it was like home you know I mean I finally fit you know uh 100% And I was good at it you know so it was just uh cuz a lot of most of the time in my life at that time I really didn't fit wherever I was you know what I mean like with the college guys even with the athletes you know I just kind of didn't like get my spot when I got into the military that was my spot and

Then um so then we switched over from at Fort Benning it went you basic and then AIT one site unit training so you did them both there so the advance training they give you your regular MOS so they made me an 11 Hotel like what is that no I'm 11 Bravo they're like no you're 11 Hotel you were an x-ray so that means we get to pick I didn't know that so 11 Hotel I'm like okay well what's that and it's like yes a tow missile Gunner you know and Vehicles I was like that's stupid

but okay well I can still go to rip and they're like nope they don't take heavy Gunnery they knocked out that part so then I couldn't go to rip so now I can't go so now the dream has you know what I mean now this part of it you know what I mean is like yeah totally screwed I was super pissed off and everything but I mean nothing else that I could do and um so any make it through basic AIT uh now is 11 hotel and um and then they had me they didn't my

orders I mean everything was all screwed up like my Airborne Wings weren't in there cuz in my mind like hey I was going to go to the 82nd you know uh Airborne unit and um and they had me like slotted for first Riley can Fort Riley Kansas like the big red one and I was like what is going on so my uncle was still on active duty uh at that time he uh you know he no he had Gotten out of active duty but he was still working for the government short version he got me

orders the 82nd you know nice yeah so uh so I was going from there uh to the 82nd um but prior to that you know just like any good movie you know uh what do you do before you go to war like you have to get married right cuz you get married you go to war you get killed and then you're this big hero you know and everybody loves you you know that's how I saw life anyway And um so um so so I got married and uh uh so I the the my wife I've

met my wife my senior year of high school um my parents got divorced uh I me went to a different high school and I met her and I still remember the first day I ever met her like uh it was one of the weirdest things in my life as far as uh like I can still picture it in my head the first time that I ever saw her like and it was just like yeah I need to be with That person you know and uh and so that's still with that person and um to dat

I I wonder about her decision-making process you know what I mean as far as sticking with me and um well hold on where did you guys meet we met in high school through a uh she was a junior in high school I was a senior in high school and uh like I said my parents got divorced just rewinding a little bit my parents got divorced uh and I went to my senior year I started a New high school and um and that's where so I didn't know anyone there had a buddy that I met and

um and he was friends with my future wife you know who was there so he introduced us and then we were boyfriend and girlfriend throughout that time the college time me joining and now we're getting married was she as wild as you were we were pretty wild but no she was not as wild as me but cuz I was a little bit off the chain kind of deal but yeah so and the Thing about with uh with her she just uh always made me feel like uh it was all right to be me uh you

know I mean and always gave me this encouragement um of that I could accomplish whatever I wanted to accomplish like there was just some kind of connection that I could not deny and obviously welcome you know what I mean it was just and I was a knucklehead man you know what I was mean and I was not kind person and and she stayed with me You know through those times I mean we've got a lot of years together you know I've gone that gone back and forth we've traded hats a few times you know you

know but uh but yeah man but that was uh yeah so from that we were together from that time and then we got married you know right before right before I shipped out to go overseas to the Gulf War and uh so we got married in South Florida got up to Fort Brag she came up To Fort Brag and uh she ended up living with my aunt and uncle when I deployed you know and uh they were already over there I got over there like December of 1990 well we're ski a couple of steps here

so you got into the 8 82nd got into the 82nd that's right where were you stationed uh at Fort Brag at Fort Brag what was it like do you have any family history in the 82nd by chance uh no there's like an an the name History but not personally that I know okay I know cuz I know you have some lineage that served well there is between uh me and my brother also okay yeah what was it like for you to check in I mean that's a well-known unit yeah you know were you were you

excited to be there super excited and absolutely terrified I mean because here I was because we'd come up to North Carolina and visit my uncle you know what I mean And and we would go to the he would take me to the gym you know on post we would drive by the 82nd Barracks all this this place where I wanted I mean you know was like oh my gosh yeah you know all the Special Forces stuff the museums everything I'd already been into all of this stuff as a civilian you know and so now I'm

coming back and I'm like okay now I'm going to be in this unit and I'm getting ready to go to war like yeah so I was terrified so you knew you were Going to war before you ever even showed up to the 82nd oh yeah because it kicked off when I was at basic you know what I mean and then pretty much everybody you know majority of the Infantry units you know were deployed uh to Saudi Arabia at that time and then um in the 82nd 100% was there you know so when I got orders

to the 82nd even though I still for binning I knew that hey I was it was going to be like within 3 weeks I was going to be over there Wow what did that feel like were you it was uh again I was a I didn't have like what we had talked about before I had no emotional tools my only emotional tool was alcohol like it was the my The Cure All you know what I mean it's like hey I I wasn't always insanely drunk but I always had drinks you know I mean I always

had beer or shots or whatever and um so obviously a lot of emotions going on and for me all that I would translate those Emotions into was anger and hate and violence you know uh because I can deal with that I can't I don't deal with sorrow and sadness and anxiety like don't so uh so what it felt like going on one hand I was like I'm like living the dream like now I'm stepping into a world that I've been reading about in books my whole life you know hey I'm going to be able to

do what my heroes you know what I mean have have done you know so on that one hand I was Like hell yeah you know like winning the Super Bowl kind of deal and then on the other hand I was absolutely terrified cuz I was still a civilian man like you know yeah and even though you know what I experienced in in post 911 you know was nothing compared to you know the minimal that I experienced going from the street to you know what I mean a combat zone in into war was was significant you

know and had huge impact on me Yeah what was it like checking into the unit that I in the 82nd yeah so it was uh you know went to Saudi Arabia uh on got to Saudi Arabia and then um cuz then we didn't move forward until January once the grand ground war and then crosso when I got to my unit and uh man it was crazy uh like they we had this thing called the Thunderdome uh it was like a almost a whole Brigade of of folks in they called it Champion Maine that was just

what they called it I Remember what town it was in was basically almost a full Brigade and all the artillery elements infantry elements in one open Bay with just CS so it was called the Thunderdome right because Lights Go Out Soup cans get thrown like all kinds of it was just ridiculous but uh so I get to my unit and um you know what I mean and there's all these Vietnam vets that are still in you know I mean so it's was like holy cow you know I'm just like Wide open and then there's all

these Ruffians you know young guys My AG guys that been there longer a lot of the unit that I went to was first of the 504th parachute Infantry Regiment so that unit the year R had jumped into Panama uh so that a lot of these guys you know what I mean had gold stars on their jump Wing had experienced a little bit of combat you know already yeah you know and I'm this new guy you know showing up yeah man so it was it was a lot but Um but I was prepared for that like

I said growing up I'd been fighting folks that were bigger than me and you know what I mean and figuring stuff out surviving you know real quick real fast but I was just I was just super pumped you know what I mean obviously nervous and then uh you know met with my platoon that I was assigned to you know and um you know and uh the funny thing is is that uh I didn't even think we get this deep but I guess we Are is like the U they have back in those days anyway they

had Cherry parties they called them you know for the new guy you know what I mean and usually well as that is is that they rough you up scuff you up and they give you a red belly you know what I mean like pull your shirt up and smack the [ __ ] up you you know it ain't fun but it's not anything St you know I mean like minor hazing yeah minor hazing kind of deal and um so I knew that that was Going to happen at some point you know and um but I

didn't know how this world worked you know what I mean I'm used to looking out for me you know what I mean like uh and so um there were they my buddies and I made good friends right off the get-go you know certain guys you click up with make you know just connections immediately and they um they're like hey Tom yeah so so and so he wants us some meet down at the motorpool you know and uh it's like late At night you know and it's like I'm like what for he's like I don't know

man he just said super important you know come down here and I'm like H okay you know and so I mean I'm a E1 you know I mean E2 I got promoted to E2 you know out of basic and um so I'm I'm the lowest guy there so I get down there and I see how everybody's kind of posturing and like you know my Spidey senses you know are I'm like man something's going to go on and I'm not thinking about a cherry Party you know what I mean I'm thinking like man these guys want

to whip my ass and uh all right you know and uh so then one came in on me you know and then I knew so then it was uh that like wasn't like fist throwing fights but it was like it was coming there and then once I finally got one guy down and I cocked back and and then um somebody said like give him red belly and I was like oh this is a what they call a cherry party you know what I mean it's like so it's Not a full-on fight you know so I

got my little Cherry party thing there with that and I was in the platoon you know what I mean I was I was good yeah so that was what it was like man a lot of senior guys man had so many good uh ncos you know I mean guys that were showing me the ropes you know right from the get-go I mean we were getting ready to go into combat you know I mean so some of them themselves a lot of them hadn't been there before some of them had you Know so it was just

uh and I just was learning from all of them I mean as we go through my story you'll see this theme of these these strong men that are in my life that's showing me the way if I'm open to listen to them you know and uh so it was just about training and learning and getting me up to speed with all of that stuff and then uh you know and then January the War kicked off like we moved up to the Border uh and then air War kicked off And then uh and then we went

in February you know was the ground war but it was kind of hilarious um because it was I I didn't get into personally I didn't a lot of guys got into a lot of serious fights during that time I wasn't I wasn't any big fights you know during that time we were we were following behind the French Foreign Legion their armor element interesting yeah so you can imagine what the aftermath of that was you know uh and we're in deuce and a Half and five tons CU we're a light infantry unit I mean we had

our toe missiles and you know and our thermals and Humvees and stuff none of it armored you know um and uh so we were just falling around so it was a really big suckfest but it was you know that same you know fear of war and seeing Wars Devastation you know and seen a lot of innocent you know getting destroyed along with the bad you know I mean so was a really uh really eyeopener for me Uh you know we cleared a bunch of bunkers had a lot of interactions with a lot of Iraqi surrendered

to us that stuff but I personally didn't get into any big fights but I definitely got other than the fighting aspect of it for me personally I got the full picture of what you know how awful you know war is if you didn't get any fights how did you gave you that picture what did you see uh so we seen Uh like whenever we would come through um some Villages that had been bombed before you know I mean so you'd see what you'd normally see in a village that got bombed you know what I mean

as far as the innocent folks the bad guys you know burned up blowed up that kind of piece uh on highways that we were cross cuz we just crossed hundreds of miles of desert you know and set up checkpoints and until we got to the end but um and then then so did you see a lot of casualties A lot of casualties yeah what what kind of emotions were going through you when you saw your first dead bodies um what kind of emotions were did you see women did you see children yeah I did it

was uh I was pretty uh numb uh because I was uh pretty emotionally overwhelmed number one I was hyping myself up to not be so afraid yeah you know cuz that was what was going on and being hard and you know and that kind of Stuff which was necessary so I was just like man that's so screwed up you know what I mean that it's like but I under I had read so many books and stuff before so even though it was books I had a and a lot of those guys that I was reading

before you know I mean those those Vietnam vets and especially the uh you know I mean they they talked about this thing that I was now seeing you know they talked about some of them you know in in much more graphic details of like How horrible aspects of war is and War poems that they had written you know just the the heartfelt the other side of War yeah there is the glory and there is you know good against Bad teams you know that piece yes that's real but also this other piece is real but it

really affected me again because I was already an emotional mess uh without any tools so my only response to that was more hardness you know just yeah just being More like yeah this is war this what it's like you know that's 20 years old you know know like yeah so but so experienced all of that piece uh turn turn 21 in Iraq um we got several birthdays deployed but uh turned 21 in Iraq so couldn't go out to a bar or drink or nothing you know and then um so uh nothing really big significant came

that came back from uh Iraq so two things happened after I got back From Iraq it was uh on the on the military side of the house man I was on my way you know um I I was so I couldn't go to the ranger regimen so my next step was well at least get to Ranger school you know so uh on the on the military side um I was excelling you know got my expert inman's badge uh you know go to pre-ranger go you know all of that's excelling but my personal life is coming

apart which was super weird to me like um and I didn't make the connection that It was alcohol was the main thing there was a whole bunch of things but you know hey alcohol was the major Catalyst of all these second and third order effects of what when you say your life was coming apart yeah how so so meaning that uh so number one I had no emotional tools number one and I'm with this wonderful human being of a woman I've experienced war I've I've gotten even more harder and more angrier and more violent uh

you know so I'm just kind of Going down the food chain you know of maso's hierarchy of needs you know to almost a survival kind of frame in a in a peaceful environment you know I mean so the only people that I'm comfortable with is guys that I went to war with you know and and Military guys and uh you know and then emotional stability was not there you know I couldn't provide all the other aspects that my wife needed from me you know she need me to be there emotionally Physically uh in in every

kind of way and um and I was pretty good whenever I wasn't drinking you know it was pretty decent human being but as soon as I started drinking just started getting that meain level so so then there began to be problems with her and I obviously our race relationship wasn't doing good uh you know it was just just going downhill with no hope in sight um on the on the personal side so that's where but I didn't know that there was another way Did you have any kids at the time no thank God no it

did not it was it was just us and uh and I didn't know that there was another way like what we were talking before like hey no this is what Warriors do like we get drunk we whip people's asses and everybody's terrified of us like yeah that's what makes you a warrior in my mind at that time so I wasn't about to give any of that up but for but it would always bleed over into my family life you know Because because it always does one always bleeds into the other you know if I having

problems at home then that's going to bleed into work if I'm having problems at work that's going to bleed into home you know I mean eventually so so that's what was happening at that P but on the on the military side man I mean within the first first two years like you know got my expert infantryman's badge uh went to pre-ranger twice uh I failed I mean I Passed both times but it was just uh you had to go to Ranger school within 30 days and let me back up a little bit so so when

I got to the unit got back from uh uh from the Gulf War um started doing that we're just in peace time training you know everything's wonderful back into doing it I'm trying to get into Rangers school so we got a new platoon sergeant and my platoon Sergeant was Vietnam vet so so this was a conventional army unit right the 82nd but here are the players that are in this unit right just a conventional unit um so uh first brigade right the 504th uh so General abade you remember abade from the global war on terror

you know General AB can you talk about him for a second yeah why he he was influential he was our Brigade Commander at that time so and then uh one of the Battalion commanders was General mccristal wow and then so you've got that epic of Human beings in the 82nd in this particular regiment and it was all throughout so it wasn't like you just had the and then like uh you know guys sprinkled in there lower enlisted you know that had they're low not Le they're ncos but you know they got over 20 years in

and stuff and they're E7 because they've been busted three times you know and but they he was a door gunner in Vietnam on three tours you know what I'm saying so I've got these kind of people U star major hogard who's the book Charlie Rangers you know he's in that book you know what I mean so that I read and now he's my sergeant major you know I mean so that's that's the men that's the Warriors that is around me as a PFC in the 82nd you know I mean with this level of of folks

you know so my my patoon Sergeant at the time the only pfcs that could go to Ranger school um were uh in Ranger Regiment only pfcs could go if you weren't in Ranger management rangement you had to be a specialist an E4 I was only a PFC but my Pon sergeant said hey go to he knew I wanted what do you want to do hey this is what I want to do he's like okay to so Battalion was running a pre-ranger little pre-election for pre-ranger you know so cuz you know the military pre to pre

to pre yeah and so I was like yeah but I'm only a PFC he's like yeah shut up go do what I tell you Like okay so I end up making you know getting the top bracket to go to pre-ranger so I go to pre-ranger um pass then they screwed up uh I've always had bad hearing from shooting weapons without hearing aid just growing up you know and um so it delayed my my me being able to put in for orders to go uh so then they informed me that hey pre-ranger is only good for

30 days so I had to do pre-ranger again that totally sucked um passed and So now I'm I've met the criteria to go to uh Ranger school for the 82nd you know as as a member of the 82nd except for one thing I'm a specialist so then the command finds out they're like what the [ __ ] like Spooner's he's a PFC and it's like U and so we're going to lose the the division's going to lose a slot because they only got a couple slots you know for the whole Division and like all this

that or my platoon Sergeant looks at him and says like yeah Or you can promote him to specialist nice right because he's the old wise guy you know and uh because he didn't even brief me in on that you know I'm just everybody's wanting to kill me you know like what the [ __ ] why how you know and I was like I'm just doing what I'm told and then platoon start's like yeah so of course in order to not lose the slot you know I got promoted to specialist at like year and a half

you know and uh and then went to Ranger school went to Ranger school and um uh recycled mountains but made it through Ranger school graduated and uh and now I'm back you know what I mean as an E4 in the 82nd with a ranger tab like at that time the only people in the ranger tabs in the 82nd were officers or guys that you know had come from regiment at some point in time you know there was a few others but not a lot and uh so I was just like Golden Boy so whatever school

I wanted I got got promoted early got this it was just like so professional life was incredibly good personal life absolute wreck and um finally that personal life uh collapsed you know and uh and my wife's like how did it collapse it collapsed cuz I wouldn't stop drinking and we had gotten to the point with my wife where she's like if you keep drinking it's over well I mean let's get a little more specific okay you know how Did it collapse like what were you doing on the off time what was why was she going

to leave you was she a drinker yeah but not much at that time I was training her to drink at that time and uh so what happened was like internally I was emotionally a wreck that you know I mean alcohol was the only thing that was keeping me going um I mean the fact that I hadn't gotten a DUI that I had gotten put in jail that I had you know what I mean I was I was a I mean I was a Ruffian man like I mean was it what was it was it were

you cheating on her was it bar fights no it wasn't cheating on her it was it was fighting and it was a and I would be a blackout drunk uh so I would do say horrible things do hor you know what I mean like I would fight I would I mean it was just no matter who was around what was around inappropriate all the times and uh and and and she was afraid to be with me how many nights a week at least five five nights a week Yeah I mean and then over the time

especially at the end like the last couple months of my drinking man there the good days were gone did that I was a blackout drunk yeah you know and and how do you I mean would you be humiliated in the morning did you ever did you wake up a lot knowing that there had been some type of an altercation argument or whatever and and you don't even remember what it was about but you're still going to your ego is still Going to let you play into it and go I don't even know what I'm pissed

off about I don't know what we argued about but I'm picking up on the I'm picking up on the body language from the people around me that I you've obviously done something yeah and uh I'm just going to pretend like I know what it is and Ride This Out yeah I mean it would happen all and a lot of times I mean I would you know I mean people would say like yeah this is what you did but I didn't Believe them because I mean I would do things when I was drinking that I would

never do when I was sober MH like it wouldn't even I would set myself on fire you know what I mean like bully someone or like walk up and punch some dude in the face you know what I mean like something that I would never like kind of be a bully like I would never do those kind of things or be mean to my wife or say mean things to her or even cuss you know what I mean a lot around Her you know me at those times and then I'd get drunk and then it

was like yeah you did this and you said this and you know I mean at first I didn't I was like you're lying like why are you making this up I mean it was driving her a little bit crazy too because I believe that she was lying cuz I I knew that I would never do those things yeah but nonetheless I was you know so all of that have been going on for a long time I was I was a mess and the only solution I had was just it even harder and faster you know

uh and so then it finally it was it got so bad and I couldn't stop this train that I was on like uh that um and I knew it wasn't going to end like I'm just a rotten son of a [ __ ] man and that's how it is you know alcohol ISM a family tradition you know what I mean it's uh this is just how it is like hey shame on you for tying your wagon to mine you know and uh that's not how I felt inside but That's what came out you know what

I mean because inside I mean I loved this person more than life itself I mean I had two loves in my life uh my wife and the Army like at that point in my life lost her because you know we got end up getting separated I moved into the barracks uh and it was just you got separated yeah yeah it was uh cuz I finally like hey if you get drunk tonight I'm we're over you know I mean I got drunk that Night cuz I couldn't not get drunk that night of course she knew cuz

I told her yeah it was like over you know so uh big blow up you know get out totally appropriate she's a smart woman you know what I mean like the best thing she could done in her life at that moment was to get away from me for sure um so I went into the barracks uh I moved into the barracks and meanwhile like the no one knows how bad my my you know so when I ask my platoon Sergeant Like hey I need to move into the barracks you know he's like why because they

think I'm this Golden Boy yeah but they don't know me outside of work you know I mean they they just know that all of this piece of it so I come back and ask him like Hey I need to get a room you know they're like for what you know I'm like yeah a wife and I are separated like for what you know and uh it's like H you know I'm not going to tell tell him why you know but it was just like Sure man whatever you need you know what I mean and it's

like okay so now I moved in the barracks so the hilarious thing about me getting sober because that's what this is leading into is is that um it kind of like trying to get sober at the bar uh cuz all the most of my drinking started in the barracks cuz that's what you do in the barracks you know and then uh and then we went out and then came back to the barracks usually you know it's how It all goes so now I'm in the barracks not drinking and uh and that's where I'm going to

get sober you know so you can get sober that's that's Testament be like you can get sober anywhere anytime if you really just want to get sober and um yeah so my wife and I were separated she was moving on with her life appropriately the only thing that saved us from getting a divorce right then and there was in the state of North Carolina you have to be separated for a year legally separated for a year before you can get a divorce so we had put in the paperwork we were legally separated and um she

was going on with her life and uh and I was going on uh with mine but just focus on the military and you know getting sober when I first started this whole podcasting thing in online store was about as far from my mind as you can get and now most of you already know this But I'm selling vigilance Elite gummy bears online we actually have an entire merch collection that's coming soon and let me tell you it is so easy because I'm using a platform that is extremely userfriendly and that's Shopify Shopify is the global

Commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business what I really like about Shopify is it prompts you all the things that you want to do with your web store like connect your social media accounts Write blog post just have a Blog in general Shopify actually prompts you to do this you want people to leave reviews under your items you can do that on Shopify it's very simple Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers with the internet's best converting checkout 36% better on average compared to the other leading Commerce platforms Shopify is

a global Force for millions of entrepreneurs in over 175 countries andow 10% of all E-commerce platforms here in the United States you can sign up right now for $1 a month at shopify.com Shan that's all lowercase go to shopify.com Shan now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in that's shopify.com Shan this show is sponsored by better help we all carry around different stressors big and small and at times we keep carrying them around rather than processing them and letting them go Keeping everything bottled up can start to affect us negatively therapy is

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better help visit betterhelp.com shaay to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp hp.com Sean so your wife left Joe yeah now you're you're ready to get silver what was that like how did you how did you start to get silver yeah so What what got me in the mindset of getting sober was a few things is uh or just the idea of it U because man the what all was going on is is I've always had people that love me in my life whether it's family people but what go on in my head is

like yeah but you wouldn't love me if you knew me you wouldn't love me if you knew all the things that I had done you know I mean so it was this constant like unworthiness you know whether it was Real or not it was real for me and I would always hurt my family you know what I mean emotionally you know what I mean I would just let them down time after time and time and that would always break my heart which always led to more drinking you know what I mean because that's my alcohol

wasn't my problem it was my solution you know so without my solution all I got problems so but man I just got tired of uh hurting the people that I love the most And uh and then my wife and I got when we got separated you know I mean that that was devastating to me on the inside externally it was just anger and like I don't [ __ ] care you know what I mean like that was external that was like the what I had to display you know cuz I had nothing else uh inside

was just crushed wrecked hurt how did you feel when your wife told you she's get out uh one part of it was Relief really yeah because I didn't want to hurt her Anymore that's just that's how jammed up I was as a human being at that time I have this person in my life that I love more than anyone on this planet uh who wants to be with me but I keep pushing her away you know what I mean and now I want to leave cuz I can't so part of me was relief and the

other cuz at least I wasn't going to be hurting her anymore uh then the other part was Devastation like oh my God what like She's my person you know like my person and so um and I really and so I'd heard about AA because my dad got sober back in 1988 you know so this is 92 so four years prior my dad had gotten sober I didn't care like I said we didn't have a great relationship he's like he's talking to me telling me he got so he's in aa I'm like all stupid weak ass

[ __ ] you know where I was at the time and um but what I couldn't deny was that here was this Man he'd been sober a few years like I said almost before he was this man that had lost it all right he lost the family he lost the job he almost lost his life but here he was sober you know he hadn't had a drink in four years and he was happy and that perplexed me like you lost your family like you should just be miserable for the rest of your life you know

I mean just my mindset was but undeniably he was happy and he said it was because he went to AA you know and And got which that was a different subject too because I hated God you hated God at the time hated God uh um all my life I'd been uh raised in the church uh you know had wonderful examples of church I just could never connect with it and that's not anything negative on church that was just where I was I could never relate or understand to the god that they were talking about how

they were talking about him you know I knew it was I knew there was a God for sure you know I just for whatever reason knew that and I knew that what I had seen in this life like how rough my life had been all the innocent people I'd see get destroyed like it was like yeah man if if there is a God it's the devil like cuz how could you allow this kind of stuff to go on meanwhile I wouldn't see all the beautiful things you know that were going on I was just focused

on the negative cuz that's where I was at you Know and um so my dad had mentioned that you know and uh and he had called me you know and uh hey how you doing I'm G quit drinking you know that's what I said I'm gonna quit drinking you know because anything I'd ever decided to do in my life I'd done that I had told myself I might tell you some [ __ ] and that might or might not happen but any time I said with me like what's the big deal I'm just going to

quit drinking you know well the big deal if you're an Alcoholic and you quit drinking things get bad and then if you stay stop drinking they get worse and then if they stay stop drinking they get some tolerable until I have to have a drink I have to you know uh so um yeah so that's why I wanted to get sober man but but really like down in my heart but my heart was covered up by a whole bunch of heaps of other not good stuff you know it just all this stuff blocking me and

um but in my heart That's what I wanted I wanted what was best for my wife and all of that and I wanted to be better but in my head I was just so screwed up and pissed off you know so I went to AA at first just for another reason uh that I might could get back my wife manipulation like hey I'm going to AA you know want to get back together so there was another side of just the relief yeah what's that again there was another Side you said you felt relief when she

said she wanted you to leave yep so there was a whole another side to this yeah the other side of it was is that again I hated hurting her the whole time and now that she wasn't going to be in my life then therefore I could not hurt her again how long did it take you to how do I put this yeah how long did it take you to realize that you needed her because now you're now you're Playing manipulation games yeah trying to get her back how long did that take oh was instantly the

manipulation games again I was so kind of twisted up inside like I was relieved that I'm not going to hurt her but I know I can't live without her so now I'm going to manipulate the situation to try to get her back okay like that's a mess I think they call that a hot mess now and so when you decided to go to AA you did you have did you not have any intentions of Actually getting sober this was just a a way to manipulate I had int the thing that I did have an intention

of was not drinking anymore right because I was like I finally fully realized and understood that number one I can't drink like regular people like I take a drink and then all this happens like these other people they take drinks and then they just kind of stopped drinking or whatever you know I mean I always thought they were weird but and uh so But I did not want to drink anymore but I didn't think AA would work that it was a whole bunch of [ __ ] AA is a bunch for a bunch of damn

weak people that can't control their own lives that's that's my mindset going in there so for the first uh first amount of time meanwhile I'm in the barracks still doing the duty day you know still working so doing the army stuff but I'm going to these AA meetings at night and uh and I'm reading the AA book The Blue Book you know and it's got the 12 Steps in it you know and um and so I'm reading that book but I'm not they there's a lot of things they recommend like hey you go to meeting

obviously you don't drink you go to meetings you get a sponsor which is someone who guides you you know through sobriety and you go through the steps you know and work the steps with a sponsor I wasn't doing none of that I was I was cuz again I got real problems man like you're saying this bit [ __ ] Stuff is is not going to help me and plus I'm damaged like y'all can't help me anyway like I'm rotten you know and um but anyway so I'm going through it and um why do I mean

why did you think you were that rotten I mean because you're I'm I'm I feel like we might be missing something because all of the stuff that you're describing is pretty common everyday life for a combat infantrymen yes special oper anybody who's in a Combat role at least in that time period I don't know how it is today but it seems pretty par for the course and so I'm wondering what is where's the extra guilt coming from the extra guilt is coming from I ended up becoming the guy that I hated the most okay meaning

uh the bully right you know what I mean uh the guy that would take advantage of situations you know what I mean was mean that was nasty uh that was ugly to people you know I mean That like I ended up becoming the person that I hated more than anything like I said the only thing that was uh above my the level of hate I had for me was God um but just and and and then growing up there was a lot of things like I was a mean kid growing up you're like to my

brother you know I mean so I just always had this um I had always had this unworthy damaged so self-concept is what you know a lot of people talk about right is and That's what we are talking about so my self-concept was is that um is that whether it was real or in my head my self-concept was is that I was a damaged human being and didn't deserve anything good in this life other than to suffer that's what went on here some of that was justified in actions that had happened a lot of it maybe

something people said you know experiences that I had had or that I had come up with myself so that's basically where I was As a human being at that time and I really I'd already lost my wife uh the next thing was the Army because I mean I just hadn't gotten caught drunk on duty I hadn't got caught drunk and you know what I mean like it you know I mean the only difference between me and guy in prisoner in the around as inches and seconds you know what I mean that's it the only difference

I wasn't getting caught but I mean I'm not an idiot like I keep doing it like you know statistics Happen it's it's going to happen so so I didn't want I'd already lost number one thing and I'm about to lose number two you know if I drink so I was solid on not wanting to drink and I wanted to drink so bad I couldn't stand it cuz again drinking wasn't my problem it was my solution you know and um So eventually I got a um a few things happened you know I got promoted to sergeant

again I'm this Golden Boy militarily now my wife and I are Separated uh but I'm really focused on like getting sober you know and it was I've done a lot of hard things in my life a lot really hard things to date for me the hardest thing that I'd ever done my entire life uh is early sobriety uh because I was having to change core beliefs change how i' acted my whole life change every person place or thing you know I mean I was only had to change one thing my whole [ __ ] life

you know what I mean And uh and I'd never been able to do that before you know so doing that like no kid not talking about it like actually putting in the work and doing that and continuing to not drink was the hardest thing that I'd ever done I mean that's why a lot of guys don't stay sober cuz it's hard the reason why a lot of guys don't make it to the seals cuz it's hard like you know what I mean any super hard thing that's worthy in life takes a Incredible enormous amount of

work and for me to dat that's the hardest that I've ever done but I was making it harder on me because I wasn't doing what was suggested like hey idiot here's here's the plan like when I went to Ranger school I went to pre-ranger I followed the regulations you know what I mean the ranger handbook like all of that stuff he was like hey man there's a book follow the book you get the results just like the gym like hey you want to Get stronger you go to the gym you pick up things that are

heavy and you move them around like then you go you get a results the the real bottom came uh whenever I couldn't imagine my life without drinking and I couldn't imagine my life with drinking you know and I just hit this surrender point of uh of where I had to go all in uh you know I mean on this sobriety gig you know the steps and sponsors and all this crap that I didn't think would work so so I Did you know but I resisted that up until the end where I couldn't resist it anymore

you know and I finally gave up you know I surrendered what I what I mean when I say I gave up I gave up on trying to do it my way like I'm going to get sober my way like hey if you can get sober your way like right on man go right ahead but I couldn't you know and um so I got that sponsor and um and and we started going through the steps uh you know and then I got what I always Needed which is relief I drank because I needed relief I needed

relief from my emotions from my ment from everything that was going on I needed relief from that alcohol gave me that piece now I don't have alcohol in my life what am I going to use to get relief you know and uh the cool thing for me is was uh and it really relates into warriors's heart you know when it comes up but is uh I got sober on Fort Brag so I got Soldier I got sober with Warriors you know what I mean so significantly different atmosphere than being in a civilian AA meeting you

know or health 12 step group meeting because I was with military guys you know the majority of them were milit uh Army you know was army base we had some Air Force mix but it was mainly and so we all spoke the same language same analogy same you know I mean the military lingo they would attach spirituality to military decision-making processes they would attach sobriety all These different things to the construct of how my brain worked which was military-minded you know and so it was huge you I got sober with Warriors you know and um

and like again Hero Warriors Vietnam Vets like World War II vets like holy crap you know like these are badass Warriors who are sober and also men of God what you know cuz for me it was a lot of all or nothing it was that team mentality you know uh which I was all Into I'm not judging or hating you know what I mean there was like yeah a warrior means this you know what I mean and then now I'm trying to be this other thing it didn't fit in that construct of what a warrior

it's like what am I going to be I was really afraid of getting sober too it's like man am I going to turn into some kind of hippie you know and uh like in my mind if and this was just in my mind but in my mind if you wanted to follow God that meant that you Um if you gave your life and your will over to God that meant you put on a white robe and you went down to South America and that's what you did for the rest of your life was tell people

about God I didn't want to do that you I want to be a warrior man like I'm just getting started 22 years old you I mean I've got this military career that's just I mean I'm going somewhere I don't I don't know if I'll get my wife back or not but like you know but it's it's Terrifying the idea of trusting in God it was for me it was because it meant I didn't know what it meant it mean I have to give up my life or what I didn't know but through that process of

going through the steps you know what I mean uh with my sponsor uh you know that process alone clears away all the wreckage of the past if you do what your if you follow the directions you get the results you know and for me that's what was lifechanging Obviously I'm condensing it down a whole lot but it's uh for the first time in my life uh you know by clearing away the wreckage of my past and making amends to the best of my ability uh and having a fellowship you know mean of men in my

life uh women also but stronger with the you know Fellowship of men and um that held me accountable and held me and encouraged me you know I mean and busted my ass when I needed it you know I had a God in my life my own personal God for The first time in my life uh it was amazing I was happy joyous and free without drinking for the first time my entire life how long how long did it did it take you to get to the 12 Steps how how how long did you give yourself

or I guess I guess a more appropriate question would be from the time you decided you wanted to stop drinking to the time that the mirle you hit bottom yeah what was that time Frame 62 days 62 days W I know it was 62 days yeah from the time I had stopped and then I just resisted went to meetings and had a book but and read the book but not all then that was 62 days and then that was the surrender moment then I got a sponsor and was on board and I told my sponsor

I was like said here's the deal man I'm going to do whatever you this is me telling my sponsor like here's the deal man here's the deal man like uh that's how AR this Yeah this is how arrogant I am I said I said I'm going to do whatever you tell me to do 100% I'm going to do what this book tells me to do 100% I'm going to do what these steps say to do 100% And when this [ __ ] doesn't work I'm going to go get drunk and he said deal like what

he's like yeah man that's all you got to do is try you do all that stuff that's all I'm asking so my intention was to prove that that [ __ ] Didn't work for a damaged person like me and I got sober wow so intention that was the absolute horrible intention you know what I mean like to prove that it didn't work and I got all the goods out of it and all the and all the wonderful Miracles that came from it that what what it what it reinforces is is action is all that matters

do the actions do the work don't think about it don't pray about it like do the work like going in the gym if you look At how we go into the gym you can watch all these YouTube videos me me and you can talk about it all day long we can make up a plan and we would just I mean just geek out on it but until we go in there and start lifting heavy things it nothing's going to nothing's going to happen when did your wife come back so see the it was a little

less than than a year we were separated almost a year wow yeah and during that time um you know all I Was doing was working and Recovery you know people talk about recovery it's like what does that mean it's like what are we what are you recovering you know I mean as I'm in recovery I'm recovered I was trying to recover me you know what I'm saying like that's what recovery is about is I'm trying to recover myself meaning cuz at my in my heart in in my true self is a really good solid human

being but I've got all these traumas and I've got all this mess and I've got all These bad behaviors and I've got all this [ __ ] in the way of me just being me you know what I mean so in recovery I'm trying I'm to date for 31 years I'm still trying to recover all the pieces that are me because life come goes on and you're always presented with more trauma you know what was it that that that brought her back I mean so she leaves y you attempt for 62 days there's 2 months

so she made you go 10 months silver Yeah with no really intention to my knowledge of her getting back cuz I was always you know during that time I gave her her space like all thee when I said I I was all in on the recovery process it's meaning I couldn't manipulate anymore couldn't lie anymore I was to be honest I was to be through I was to be authentic you know I mean all these things I'd never you know accomplished before in my life uh and she knew that too you know and um and

so I gave her Space you know I mean i g i mean I would you know every opportunity that I had you know I would get cuz my sponsor right man he set me straight right from the get-go CU he asked me hey what do you love the normal get to know kind of questions like what do your loves what you like man I love my wife and uh he said well what do you want for her I was like I wanted her to to be happy um and it was absolutely my heart I wanted

her to be happy all that ID put her through The wonderful person that she is like I wanted her to be happy he said okay you want her to be happy he's like well what if that doesn't include you you still want her to be happy and I was like damn because in my mind that her being happy I was somewhere in that in my picture you know but when he put it to me like nuts and bolts kind of like that you know and my answer was yes you know like but it hit me

it like really settled like like really like Unconditionally you'd never thought about that possib hell no man I'm a selfish guy like me I want what I want when I want it you know what I'm saying like uh used to getting it and uh and it was like wow that was a real question that required a real answer like right now you know and uh and I said yeah and I was like damn but it also freed me up cuz there was no more game you know what I mean like I was to be me

and whatever that meant trying to Figure it out you know and um and then whatever if we got back together we got back together the only thing that I made sure for me and did was I stayed um you know I mean I didn't have a girlfriend I wasn't seeing anybody else I was truly just because if I if if if there was any chance of her and I getting back it meant that I had to be single if I was in a relationship then obviously we couldn't never get back that was I'm trying to

live a life of honesty and all You know so I had to like not you know to remain single you know and uh which was another skill set in and of itself you know so I really was getting sober mind body and spirit not just dry meaning not having a drink I was working on every part of my life and I loved it and I was with the men that I wanted to be with so I'm still with my heroes I'm still with the Vietnam Vets I'm still with the World War II I'm meeting these

Giants of human beings Like again we read my resume not minimizing me but my resume compared to those guys resume man is like doing good kid you know yeah do another 20 years maybe you'll be all right you know again not into minimizing what I did or self-deprecating but like dude these guys were like World War II Korea and Vietnam veterans I can't believe you were in with World War II vets that's incredible man yeah there was there wasn't any on active duty at the time But I was in recovery with with all those guys

that's that's still like just yeah the greatest Generation EP Epic Man I mean yeah I mean I can go on and on for days with the because I chose uh to have the willingness to be around these folks the amount that I learned and the stories that I heard which enabled me to make it the way that I did again it comes back to it all goes back to them you know kind of deal so so I'm getting uh so now I'm sober um oh and How we got back together was is that uh you

I just kept putting in the work and was consistent for the first time ever and then she really believed like holy crap this guy's not going to get drunk again because she didn't believe it nor should she should have but and wow I was kind I was like I was a solid consistent predictable human being and so uh and so we got back together and and um uh we got back together and then U who reached out to Who I reached out to her you know what I mean as far as cuz I was always

reaching out at every opportunity not being manipulative but just like hey would you like to go out to dinner sometime like hey you want to go out to the farm you know a lot of times it was no and that was okay and I had to be but uh so we got back together but you got a yes what's that you got a yes I got eventually got a yes so what was that like to reconnect with her for the first Time oh my God man where did you go yeah so it was uh we

we were just out at uh and it unfolded right um that's what I learned about living in my God's world is uh is I always work hard and I make plans and stuff but man if I just allow things to unfold like my God has the best of things waiting for me if I just don't screw him up like how do he keep me out of the picture you know and uh so we had just we met up and we were like at my at my uncle's Farm F my aunt and Uncle's farm and we

were just hanging out talking and then one thing led to another and she missed me terribly you know and because I wasn't a jackass anymore you know what I mean she couldn't blame me anymore uh just on the past stuff but you know in the near future you know what I mean I was I was decent and and she was just was like yeah let's cuz I'm I'm mean the whole time you know I mean was like she knew I was willing and able and wanting to be Back together that wasn't a question the only

question was what she wanted to join that party again you know and uh and then just one day it was like yeah she's like yeah I do and so then now I had her back you know I mean and I was a different guy you know what I mean truly you know I mean there had been spiritual changes that had occurred in me uh I was no saint by any means but you know I had um had a spiritual awakening enough to recover from alcoholism number one Meaning I wasn't drunk and then with that being

in place that I was actually a decent human being still a young man learning what young men have to learn you know I mean it didn't rocket ship me into some kind of Yogi you know what I mean it was uh so I had a lot of hard lessons to learn but man I was I was good you know I mean solid dude um yeah and it was man and then from that moment forward that was the beginning of acquiring in my mind zeros and ones you Know effects you know put in the work get

results is like okay I put in this work my wife is now back in my life as a results of that work now that's my motivation to keep doing the work right don't get complacent don't get like hey this can be gone a lot of people don't most people don't get the opportunity of a second chance you know mean I know that you know so I was gifted this second chance Like all right boy it's on you now you know I'm interested to hear what happened with your career you know now we're talking about the

marriage the personal life you know one thing I noticed when I quit drinking two years ago is my career went like this you know it was it was on and upward but then it went straight up oh yeah man so I'd already even a high functioning alcoholic that I was you know I mean Again I was already a Golden Boy status right and uh that was ' 92 now we're talking 93 time frame uh and so I'm going to all these other schools right so I'm like going to Pathfinder school I'm going to jump Master

school like whatever is available like I'm going to it and I'm crushing it you know and some other things that are happening along the way is um back to the the mentors in my life so that same platoon Sergeant you know that finagled Me into Rangers school you know through his Wizardry um when I became an NCO you know an E5 Sergeant went to pldc and Ranger school and everything I think you know um he he gave me one piece of information man that still would I do today you know and he asked me he's

like uh yeah so what does it mean to be an NCO you know dude I'm 22 years old I'm a ranger qualified E5 you know I mean I'm just but now I'm sober and I'm not this [ __ ] You know as much anyway and um I was like Mission and Health and Welfare of the troop he's like uh yeah yeah that's true you know and he's like but what does Health and Welfare of the troops mean and I was like well I mean I've been to PLC I know the answer you know and it's

like yes beans and bullets and hey you got to know what F you know how many kids they have and you got to know what problems they have going on their On they're like he's like yeah jackass it doesn't mean that at all I'm like so now I know I'm about to hear something because anything that I'd ever read in the books and from the Army and from you know NC system and everything like okay I just had regurgitated what what he said and so what he said no what Health and Welfare the troops means

is to you give the men that are under you the ability to survive and thrive in combat that's what that Means that's a whole lot different then beans and bullet it's like he's like yeah you have to know all that stuff to just be a good leader a good leader knows their people I said but don't ever be confused that with being you know I mean providing Health and Welfare to the Troops the ability to survive and thrive in combat that's a whole another thing that that doesn't have anything to do with this piece and

because of my limited experience uh but experienced Nonetheless in the Gulf War I knew what he was talking about I had an idea of what he was talking about and um so from that moment forward and I was sober so now it's predictable and consistent and regular you know that's what my whole life has been about you know what I mean how to give obviously when I was on active duty is like give those ability meaning in training to survive combat so teach them right number one and then to thrive in it you Know I

mean that's a whole another different piece of just survival of combat you know so it's given and again I'd already mentioned all the other War Wizards that were in that that Brigade you know and then um and I started getting exposure to uh so I was a Vietnam vet and I started getting exposure to this idea of I really didn't know what I was being exposed to but it was PTSD right mean I'd learned that battle fatigue PTSD all that stuff that Was a leadership issue a leader job is to be able to identify if

one of their soldiers uh has battle fatigue uh post-traumatic stress you know that kind of stuff um that's a leadership issue not to heal it I mean not not to fix it but hey Jimmy right there he's developing these symptoms his nightmares his all the stuff that we know that are symptoms of P like I identify those things and hey he's got to be pulled offline and fixed as far as For unit Readiness not caring about the human any just back to the military Machinery piece of it so I knew it was a leadership issue

but I mean there wasn't any offerings I mean it was early '90s and stuff but I got exposed again to more um I'll probably get this in order but then the next kind of situation I found myself with was uh had one like soldier of the quarter board or something you know I doing all these Different things that you have to do to excel in peace time because we were in peacetime Army I mean I was in peacetime Army for 10 years yeah before 911 that's a a lot of training yeah that's a lot of

experience and uh and uh so um I won this uh one this uh because want to get promoted you got to go to these boards you know I mean it's all this peacetime Army things that you have to do to excel during that time and um so I won this uh trip to Sacramento California to be at The 173rd Airborne division's reunion the the they reenacted it but back or reactivated it it but back then it wasn't so it was just Vietnam Vets you know in Korea uh but the thing about it was is that

also during the Vietnam war the 173rd the ranger regiment all the different Ranger companies because they didn't have battalions in with companies had supported that unit so there were all every Ranger that had served in Vietnam was there also so I get to go Out to their reunion in Sacramento so now I'm sitting with hundreds I mean there was more missing body parts in that room than probably ever than until that thing happened again cuz these are all the Rangers all these guys there's guys walking around you know with four gold stars on their jump

wings from World War II I mean there's just the yeah man there's these guys that the only time they come out of the woods you know is for this reunion and then they Go back to the woods you know and because they can't deal with Society or they don't they choose not to not not that they can't they just choose not to so I'm setting with I'm an E5 it's like 94 I got four years in the Army you know and um I'm me and so I'm like in awe but then I'm learning you know

what I mean and what I'm learning about the message that just keeps hitting with me with war and Trauma is is that it doesn't go away CU I'm watching all these Heroes having Fun talking [ __ ] you know what I mean telling stories that that's a chunk of it and then usually in the evenings you know at some part even during the day there's this Darkness you know what I mean and there's this savagery of emotions that occurs and these come aparts and the you know what I mean it's like whoa and this self-medication

right which I I I'm an alcoholic man I these guys that are they're feeling so much Emotion they have to medicate it you know and that's their medicine and drugs and everything so I was just like and I wasn't being judgmental by any means you know was like the message I got was is like it doesn't go away like it does like here's it it doesn't go away it's 30 years later doesn't go away you know um so and then shortly after that I did a 45th anniversary jump into St Mary G France epic right

you know what I mean jump mastered into the static line jump Mastered into that there was some Old World War II guys that jumped into there also you I mean some of those guys were still healthy enough to jump in and and they walked in and so we're there again I'm in Epic right here I am with all my heroes and uh and the same thing happens like during the day it's like I landed right over there and broke my leg and I crawled over here and I shot three Germans over you know what I

mean like like holy crap so during the day we're Talking about all that stuff and then sometimes during the day or then at night I'm watching them just come apart unhinged you know what I mean like wow it doesn't go go away doesn't go away like okay and that's just information that I'm having you know and uh and so I would talked to a lot of them about that uh especially the World War II guys you know which is was a much in my opinion don't know if it's true or not you know Much tougher

group of men uh come out of the depression you know what I mean and then live world wars I mean I'm with you yeah man like greatest Generation to date um in my opinion that's what they call them the Great yeah man and so as they um and when I was in sobriety now I'm in sobriety and I'm in meetings and I'm talking to to Veterans and stuff cuz now some of that stuff a little bit is B gurgling up from me you know even though I did my step work I hadn't been to any

Um Psy psychology help or anything like that you know so I still have a lot of emotions that are not processed and um and some of those hardcore uh World War II guys you know what I mean they called it uh some of them would say like yeah don't shake the net boy and what he meant was is that you know um all the pictures of the D-Day invasion and the big cargo Nets on the big ships that were putting them on the Landy craft uh you know you see the pictures and They're just full

of it well these are those guys stories is like yeah guys that would be [ __ ] themselves you know what I mean are freak out having panic attacks and like I'm not going kind of deal and start freaking out and shaking the net that's about to make all these other guys fall off off of it they'd pull them off of it cuz either you go or 10 of us go you know kind of deal and uh and so whenever it came to the talk of War Trauma those kind of stories you know the ones

that we have that we don't even really Talk Amongst ourselves about you start bringing that kind of stuff up they be like don't shake the neck son and be like d so one part of me got it but then the other part of me was like something has to be done with that because it doesn't go away so you know I mean these guys were in their later times of their life just cuz where they Were and um so anyway I got this this was even while I was in the 82nd you know and uh

let's backtrack just a second so you're sober you get sober uhhuh you get your wife back did you tell your dad call your father and let him know you got sober yeah I was staying in contact with him so that was the beginning like I said my dad and I didn't have good relations you know young in Life and uh man and he did the best thing uh cuz he knew I'd tell him what I was doing like yeah I'm still going to the bar but I'm not drinking and uh CU I'd call him every

week or so and just check in with him and stuff man and he was you know now I mean me being a dad you know your son is your son no matter how old you are you know and uh and he KN I knew he wanted to say you need to stop doing that you need to do this you know and do that but he didn't he was Just like well you just keep at it just keep at it just keep at it you know and uh and so and I was uh I I was

enjoying the conversations with him you know they weren't any kind of deep but I I wasn't angry with him I wasn't uh you know there wasn't anything in between us it was we were just I was a young man he you know we were having conversation so it was it was super cool yeah and he uh and he didn't get into my business he just kept encouraging me encourag me Because if he' have said it just with the dad factor I wouldn't have done it because he asked me to do it you know cuz I'm

again that jackass that doesn't like being told what to do so yeah he's back in my life and um because of me not because of him you know back in my life and man and and we're we're we're creating this new relationship uh which was huge huge for me at that point in my life too you know and I it was really big deal so all those relationships are Being uh you know being being mended up and it's good yeah let's get into your special ops career so then um um ended up not even so

again my whole thing was like wanting to get to the ranger regiment right so I'm Ranger qualified but I didn't go to the regiment and they'll be quick to tell you the difference between those two things but um anyway so um so I went to uh I'm like what next CU I couldn't stay in the 82nd any longer Um some of the best ncos to date were those men that were there but I I just always wanted like what's next like I want I needed I'd done everything that I could do there what's the next

challenge you know and uh and being an SF you know Green Beret it's like okay well that just was kind of like the next thing um and it was it was like Hey I was already on another enlistment and um and couldn't switch over so let me go to that so in 19 December of 95 I went to uh special force selection and uh and made it how did that come on the radar going to Special Forces it was just that uh I wasn't I was like man what's next that was kind of the what's

NE it was what was next I was like well I can go to special did you always know about it or I mean I always knew about the Green Berets but it wasn't like one of those things that like um hey that'd be cool but it wasn't like a man I want to Devote my life to this purpose you know and uh and it was really like hey I didn't want to be a drill sergeant or recruiter because that's the mean I read it about six years five to six years you get tagged for being

a drill sergeant or a recruiter I didn't want that I was like so let me go to selection because that trumps anything there so so not a lot of really huge reason for going other than giving a shot and that it was going to be super hard um that was the Motivation for it's like hey do I have what it takes to be at the next level so a go to that and um yeah make and at that time each one of these things that I experienced whether it was pre-ranger then Ranger school then best

Ranger then sfas was the hardest thing I ever done in my life you know each one of those not one of those that I just Breeze through and like well that wasn't too bad it was like no that was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life until I Got to the next hardest thing I'd ever done in my life and then at this point sfas for sure was the hardest thing i' had ever done in my life um made it through that uh super exciting you know I'm like holy crap you know past

selection um as an 18 Charlie that's engineer Special Forces engineer uh started what did I do uh went to the Q course qualification course for that and again man I'm now living even more the dream you know what I mean like now I'm going to be a special forces guy so this time I'm about you know I'm about this is 96 time frame so I'm like four years sober and what I've seen in sobriety is like usually between years four and six a lot of that unprocessed trauma comes out if you haven't seen a psychologist

or you know work through those kind of issues and for me a lot of that emotional stuff started coming out uh from from childhood from past from you know I mean Whatever it just started coming out I didn't have any really processing tools other than sharing it with a you know another alcoholic or another Warrior you know and um so there was some tough times you know having panic attacks anxiety attacks uh again not to do to anything it was all from past stuff you know and it's a natural what I've learned is that it's

a natural progress of the body has to be rid of all of that stored emotion The body will be rid of it at some point usually it comes out sideways like if I'm not dealing with something that I know not supposed to be dealing with it's going to come out with an inappropriate emotional response inappropriate behaviors like saying too much getting mad you know I mean it's coming out you know I always revert it back to like a thorn that's stuck in my skin like my body is going to kill itself to get that out

like you know What I mean it's going to there be red and then there be puss around it cuz it's trying to force it out you know I mean it'll go so far as if it doesn't force it out then I'll become septic can die you know I mean but the body is going to try to get it out so all those stored emotions stored in memories and events uh are couple you know were coming out so I was having these weirdo panic attacks and stuff I didn't even have the words for them because again

It's mid 90s no one talks about anxiety and panic ATT not in my circles anyway you know it's just like man I don't know what's matter with me like whatever just don't do anything stupid right now you know and um so I was going through that and um one morning again now what I know when I was in language school I ended up having this panic attack and uh and it just so happened that morning I was supposed to go in for a PT test like at 0630 and Then normal like be in class at

language school you know at 09 and so I got up uh with that panic attack thing um L my wife had already gone to work I was at the house by myself no kids still and I'm having this panic attack man I'm not leaving the house I'm supposed to be at formation and I'm not going I I'm and I'm well aware of the consequences of my actions uh like I'm probably going to get kicked out because it was almost like a zero Tolerance kind of thing man I'd seen guys get kicked out for stuff and

I was just I was not well man you know I was reading my books I was praying my prayers I was just like just riding it out but I wasn't leaving the house for whatever reason that's I had I had I'm not leaving the house and um so um cool things people that knew me and I was predictable you know uh the first sergeant of course SF you know long tab guys is like Hey where's Spooner uh why isn't he at my formation you know cuz I'm student status you know I'm not like I made

nothing in those guys Minds you know and uh and uh and and so first arm was course pissed and then then I didn't show up for the next formation and first AR came down and he's like where's Spooner and uh don't know he's not and so two of my best friends that I one of them I knew in the 82nd and we had gone to selection and we're in the course together they go to The first sergeant and they're like hey first sergeant um something's wrong cuz the first sergeant was getting ready to come to

my house unbeknown to me like I knew I was going to be in trouble but I didn't know like some dude was getting ready to come to my house but something kept coming up and he couldn't come to the house cuz that's what he told my buddies he's like hey I was going to go to the house I can't he's like y'all two go go to his house right now you know And I'm unbeknown to me so I'm just at the house having a panic attack trying to get my [ __ ] together you know

and uh and so I finally do you know it starts easing up you know as most emotions do you know I mean passing and I'm like I'm like okay and right about that time I looked out my window and uh and I see my buddy Robert's truck pulled up like the [ __ ] are they doing here you they're supposed to be in langu we're in the language course together you Know and I look like a mess right I got like some Bermuda shorts on my hair is all crazy sticking out I'm look like a

dude that's probably having a panic attack you know and uh and I'm at the door and and uh my one buddy he knows about my sobriety and my other path and my other one and it's like hey bro how you doing you know I'm like not so good this morning and like come on in you know because I wasn't hiding anything and so they come in but It was that act of humankindness you know mean here it makes me emotional even now to think about it you know I mean here Warriors came to the aid

like CU because Rob knew something was wrong because I don't not I'm a good soldier you know I mean I don't miss formations like I'm I set the example you know I mean that's what Tom does so he knew was something was wrong and um so but just that act of human Humankindness man just from other Warriors you know just like really calmed all of it down I was like man ain't that something so they knew I was good and you know everything was good and I was like uh yeah man I'm iron my uniform

up you know and then go talk to First Arn it right so so I'm going to talk to the first AR I was like man I'm probably going to get kicked out of the I mean that minimum they're going to recycle me you know I'm going to get Punished somehow even though I really I just missed a couple but at those times zero tolerance guy's name was first starting stack and um so I go into the first sergeant and uh and I was like uh he's sitting down I sat down he's like yeah sit down

and um he's been in SF for over 10 years you know what I mean like this dude's a crusty old SF dude you know and uh and I was like uh he's s like just says that like wait like you Better start talking boy you know what I mean and so and so I started talking I was like Hey first time first of all you know there was absolutely no reason I shouldn't have been at your formation uh there's no excuse I should have been at your formation he's like yeah he's like yeah I know

that he said so what's going on and I was like what you know what I mean like I'm already expected to be kicked out in my little movie you know what I mean I'm Kicked out I'm going I'm doing like and this man is asking me what's going on with me and he meant it like what what's going obviously something's going on tell me what's going on and I told him you know I was like hey you know I was having some struggles this morning and there was some things going on in in my family

my brother was struggling a little bit um uh there was some struggles going on with my mom a you know mean I had some I wasn't going to Tell him fully that I was having a [ __ ] panic attack you know what I'm saying I mean uh but I told him enough of the truth probably about 90% of it that I was struggling that I owned up to and then he said something that I'd never experienced before he looked at me and he said okay he said uh he's like look uh you're in Special

Forces now we take care of each other and I was like what you know me because we say all That [ __ ] you know what I mean like oh yeah family first all this stuff you know no you know what I mean like part of the machine and he said and next thing you know he's offering me time off he's like hey if you need time off you take time off and then he said he's like but if if something comes up with you again that you haven't already talked to me about prior to

it happening you're out of here but I understand that kind of language You know I I was like but again it was that it's like hey I'm I'm entering a brotherhood like I'm I was already in a really every unit that I left I was not disgruntled at like I wasn't like I screw these guys I want to move on it was like man these were I you know I enjoyed it I wanted to be where I was it was just time to move on you know and uh and so here I'm in like something's

different here with these guys like they mentioned this Brotherhood we talked About Brotherhood there like it's a little bit even different and um so I made it and the significance of that obviously very significant at a low point in my life you know what I mean this male figure that is now provide me encouragement structure you know what I mean in the way ahead you know like hey keep kicking ass don't come in my office again you know and uh all language I understood he ended up getting um killed In Afghanistan uh yeah in after

the G you know kicked off uh so again just men like that in my life so I finished up the you know in this new kind of Brotherhood thing so then I get my team and seventh group I went to seventh group you know Central and South South America again man I won the Super Bowl again you know what I mean like championship and it's all pre-war I mean it's all no war time frame you know what I mean so Central South America pretty dicey you know drug on war you know I mean it was

at least dangerous place to go you know uh super happy love the culture love the people uh you know it was dangerous as [ __ ] at a lot of times and uh and it was a lot of good times and yet that the the pool of quality of men that were around me was even better you know I mean there was I you know there was guys that I was trying to be like you know what I mean It was like holy crap and again the first team that I roll into like the the

team Sergeant is an ex unit guy you know what I mean so there's that you know who was in Grenada and all kinds of stuff and then there's a couple other guys on the team that were Veterans of the El Sal Wars you know what I mean El Salvador and all that so here I am again on this new team now being instructed or being gifted with this is how you do it boy you know like yeah like learn and You know at that time I was 26 years old unbroken I was a beast physically

you know and a little bit cocky you know and uh and some of the older guys you know were a little out of shape but I didn't know what they had gone through cuz I didn't know what it was like to be on a team for six years you know what happens to your body in Special Operations you know and uh as a little judgy internally thank God it never came out of my mouth man but I I just was like man I really Need to learn this job like don't be judgmental like learn man

and um and I just watched how these guys work down range you know what I mean uh I mean in non-combat time you know we would go and we were just doing foreign internal defense and you know teaching pois and and and working but they were Wizards man you know I mean they you want to talk about if somebody that can create they were Special Forces Soldiers by with and through and like they could Mobilize a battalion at their whim which you know I mean through Buzz that just gets your foot in the door man

you haven't really done in those guys Minds that are working in those units they like they don't give a [ __ ] man like you've just got your good job you got your foot in the door now you're when you get in there especially with the guys that are putting you through I mean the Mogadishu guys Tom sadly and his boys and we've Interviewed Tom yeah and uh I mean what was and then knowing they know yeah they know more than anybody else what you're about to walk into yeah and so you know I would

think that they that had to be [ __ ] tough yeah man I mean those had to be some some hard men to please and I would imagine that They I mean did did it seem like they just despise you like there's no way that you could ever no rise to their expectation to be able to work alongside with them wasn't that at all no [ __ ] yeah man I mean they were super they were super tough at upholding the standard so there wasn't any extra uh uh like the standard was so hard number

one uh but now the intensity Level has gone up maybe it's always been that way you know I mean I don't I don't know I only know my class and the classes after that that I was Cadre on but it was like that level of intensity of the focus on the standard of doing it right man was off the charts and we had really small group how many there was no I mean there was probably 10 to 12 guys in in in my little group you know so there was almost a onetoone instructor like you

Weren't getting away with nothing and they were not going to send a product to like all of those guys had already obviously their instructor status now they had spent you know years on the teams like they're not sending by any [ __ ] bag back to their friends so there's that aspect of it too like because there's a good chance that they'll be working with them you know because after they fin finish that time as being instructor they're going right Back you know so that that's what keepes it so fresh so yeah it was super

intense man and then the so was the normal pressure and then the self-imposed pressure because here I am now another Super Bowl win right like uh now I'm going through the gate of this compound that I've been around for 11 years and I'm actually going through the gate so for a little while the you know and the intensity so had and every week They made a decision where you were staying or not I mean that was common knowledge they had a little meeting and with the instructors it was where you were whether you were staying

or not and there were guys getting getting chipped off you know what I mean and then I mean just cuz you made it through that so if you had to make it through the last board at the end you know what I mean it was intense but I loved it you know what I mean and again it was during that time So that was just amazing right and so back to uh month two you know basically of a January time frame and my son was was born in the middle of January right so uh and

during that time in the training course you know it was a lot of basic stuff that we were doing at the time because they're getting the the whole group up to speed because you know they're pulling from guys with all different backgrounds you know I mean so getting everybody setting everybody up For Success along the way so there was a lot of stuff Marksmanship wise that I was already good at and a lot of things so uh my son was born and um so awesome you know what I mean uh 2-year-old infant you know newborn

uh and wife everything's good um you know have a little bit of time to take care of that then fames coming in to help take care of you know obviously very planned for because I got to be in this course you know what I Mean so it was all good everything was good and then some complications occur with my wife she has very hard hard time with pregnancies uh and so but it was that was mostly during pregnancy this was post so usually no problems after that well I don't know that there's a problem I'm

on the Range black Suburban pulls up you know with the the S major of the training you know what I mean who was a team leader in Mogadishu by the way so that whole crew you know what I Mean so so he shows up and he's like yeah we Spooner yeah I'm fired you know what I mean like this our major doesn't come yeah you know I mean at the ringe and ask for like for only one reason you're out of here so I get in the and he don't say [ __ ] he's like

yeah get in and uh get we get in and I'm like I'm fired you know what I mean he's like hey uh your wife's okay uh but she's in the hospital uh there's been some Complications uh she's stable but you know there's a lot going on he's like so you're going to take this Suburban you're going to take this cell phone cuz 2001 time frame right so we don't have iPhones and all that you know you're going to take this cell phone uh go take care of business go take care of your family keep me

updated [ __ ] out of here and uh so I do you know I mean Roger that thanks you know I mean and I go but in my mind I'm like what Where am I you know I mean like what who does this like I mean a course that you can't miss any time man I haven't even made it you know mean through the first month and now this is going on whatever so go through and uh you know his life uh a lot of complications we got septic there was U you know different different

things that had happened and um and it it took a few days to get sabled so I mean I missed a couple of days you know I mean because I got a newborn a Two-year-old you know I mean like there's a lot going on and uh so I was like hey whatever I know my priorities are straight you know what I mean the family is first in this scenario you know what I mean versus the school and um we're just taking care of it I'm heading so we get it all settled in again and after

a couple of days and I go back to work you know I keep star major updated everything's good back to work uh and then it was after work this Time she ended up having to go again to the hospital you know I mean so it was another little stint and um so it was a lot lot going on right and um and so I know I'm like man I'm going to get at best recycled you know here I am again like my little scenario it's not me this time it's a family situation but it's like

same kind of scenario where like at best I'm going to get recycled if not like hey man you can't handle your own family problems you probably don't mean It to be in this unit you know I mean kind of deal so um so anyway I call this our major up um and say hey s major everything's settled like he's like 100% uh because he said don't call me until cuz she didn't know she went and had to go back he's like okay like make sure it's settled before you call me back again like take the

time make sure your family is good the support is there that you need whatever you need meanwhile This dude is number one taking care of me by allowing me to do that stuff and his wife is taking care of my wife like she's she's we don't know this these people they haven't said this but without saying it they didn't need to it's like yeah this is how we handle people here our people you know what I mean there like this [ __ ] Bizarro world to me And it's like like coming calling my wife checking

on my wife like who the [ __ ] is she like I'm almost weird me out a little bit like what they put the [ __ ] in it for them you know I mean cuz I'm just but it was just like so I call start maor up say like hey yeah it's good I was like we're good we're solid and and I'm I'm waiting for him just to tell me he just didn't want to hurt my feelings along the way you know like hey I want to recycle you into the next Class you've missed

six days of training now you know and he's like okay you settled yeah good he's like all right uh go to Raleigh there'll be a uh cuz my guys they were doing training out at Campbell with aircraft you know and it's like hey your team's already out at Campbell there's a plane ticket waiting for you and Riley pick up the ticket get on the plane meet up with your team continue with training I started laughing at the dude like I'm like I Started laughing and he's like what he was like I was like Hey so

our major like do you want one of my kids like what no one does like what do you mean like he was supposed to tell me like no I'm recycling you know and he's telling me to continue with the training you know and uh I was like you want one of my kids or something he laughs a little bit you know and he's like hey um he's like he's like uh he's like hey man it's just the Right thing to do like watch that like what the [ __ ] man who is this I haven't

even made it you know what I mean and like they're taking of me like I'm a unit member you know what I mean like I like I'm you're your mindset is I don't deserve this treatment yeah yet exactly and yeah and they're like hey yeah this as if you know and uh and here's another example of like this next level of Brotherhood this next level of care for the family You know what I mean this like okay I'm I'm in a different different spot you know and and this is and these are with these guys

you know what I mean so it bursts that bubble of or begins to burst some of the bubble that hey to be a badass Commando you got to drink and tear up you know and all that kind of stuff I mean some of them do and again I'm not judging but then there's also a large group they they don't they're just total badasses anyway You know what I mean like and so I was meeting all these different kind of kind of dudes and everything you know so so wife's better everything's good you know make it

through the course um yeah so I'm so I'm in you know what are the feel like getting through that course would to graduate when you're done in 911 and just I mean you're the first class to graduate OTC at Delta I had thought of that till you just said it post 911 yeah the Longest war in USS yeah yeah man I was [ __ ] pumped what do they say to you uh welcome to the team yeah man like here's your team room here's a team Sergeant here's I let's get to in typical fashion it's

like hey great job no hold on tight it's going to be a wild ride no So then whenever it comes and now then you get with the team right and so that was the next uh kind of cup check you know sanity check for me was like you know How good can these guys really be what Squadron did you go to it was a yeah so it's like hey how good could these guys be you know cuz I've been doing CQB NSF for a while been CQ UB schools and stuff it's like now OTC level

it's like you know and that much up the game it's like can they really be that much faster and that much better like because I don't have a point of reference you know what I mean and I'm a little bit arrog getting guy myself you know and uh and So when you get to the team and then my 2ic you know uh he says to me it's like hey when we're going on team runs you know doing CQB in the buildings he's like hey man just throw chem lights and try to keep up and I'm

like okay like yeah watch you know me being my little bit of arrogance like you know how good I am you know what I mean it's like uh and so what did I do for the next few weeks throw chem lights and try to keep up you know what I mean because it was these guys have been working together like as you experience you know get man you get on a team and these dudes have been doing it at this level together for this like that's I mean there's intuitive [ __ ] they're doing you

know what I'm saying they just see how him he's leaning and he knows what he's doing already like these guys know each other in the house under nods like it's it's Incredible so there I am again just trying to keep up man I'm trying to I mean I'm always going for the title man and it's like but in that crew of men that crew of of warrior like that man it was like like holy crap man let me just be amongst them you know and be and have a a decent reputation amongst them so like

that was like the goal I mean some days you'd win you know be on top but then you knew that they were coming it was that healthy competitiveness man Where it was just like it it was incredible it just created this fighting force that was unlike anything I've ever experienced in my life and now I was part of it man so I was I was ecstatic and again with my my belief system in place is that okay if I'm not supposed to be here I wouldn't have made it so I'm supposed to be here so

be all in until I'm not like living moment at the moment living in the present living in the day having in the Plan and like learn your job get to work and like let's go and let's go to war man like I am you know I mean I've spent 11 years you know what I mean like my whole life for this moment yeah like and obviously there was some na naive to that because I mean I experienced some of it in the Gulf War but just a just a taste you know so there was a

little bit of naive of what that meant but I I kind of knew what it meant um you know and I Was again now I'm almost 12 years or 12 years in a lot of hard stuff I was pretty hardened trained hardened mind body and spirit dude you know like I was about as prepared as you can get to go to war how long was it after you graduated OTC before you went out the door on your first appli like two months that's it two maybe three I'm not sure a couple but minimal no more

than three let's take a Quick break when we come back we'll get into your first deployment all right I want to tell you about this business venture I've been on for about the past 78 months and it's finally come to fruition I've been hellbent on finding the cleanest functional mushroom supplement on the planet and that all kind of stemmed from the Psychedelic treatment I did came out of it got a ton of benefits haven't had a drop of Alcohol in almost two years I'm more in the moment with my family and that led me down

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the promo code SRS that get you 20% off you guys are going to love this stuff I guarantee it over the past several years vigilance lead patreon has fueled what you now see today the Sha Ryan Show because of our patrons and their support has enabled us to produce the best quality Productions that you see weekly including our small team that continues to grow I've done a complete restructure of vigilance lead Patreon in 2024 by adding new and improved tiers and giving them a unique name tier one is now known as the Seeker tier 2

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the success of the Shawn Ryan show you see without you there will be no show there will be no team to support me in the thousands and thousands possibly millions of lives that we've been able to have positive impacts on would have never happened and for that I would like To personally thank you you can join me today for as little as $5 a month by visiting vigilance Elite patreon all right Tom we're back and we had just finished up Delta selection you're on your team you're getting ready to deploy where are you going yeah

so that uh first one that I went to is Afghanistan that was in the fall of o2 and um we were on a it was just a TST time sensitive Target task force that was there so we just if anything hot Came up we went and did it so it was a lot of time on base but my first mission in the unit was pretty uh not anything glamorous on the end results but uh I got a welcome to the party uh results of that is uh so we were going with without the whole story

of the the mission it was you know he going to go get a bad guy you know what I mean kind of deal in that level of Target set and um we loaded up we had to get on 130s and see 130s and uh fly to another town and Uh so we get on uh in the back of these trucks I'm in the back of this truck and I'm holding this basically this big uh device it's a like a piece of plywood 2x4s this whole sheet of plywood you know what I mean as far as

uh so I'm holding it in the back of this pickup truck going out to the C130 cuz it's going on the plane with us and uh as soon as we get up to the Airfield and take a right to head towards that there's a c23 a German airplane sitting There and as soon as we turn that way um he gases as luck would happen he gases that plane so that whole sheet of plywood that I'm holding on to and holding down with the 2x4s that I'm holding of course takes flight and uh and that thing

comes up snaps my nose right here big time hits me in the cheek there and uh knocks me back I mean it's just like a big piece Flatwood flies away you know like a piece of paper except with me in the middle of it and Uh so it knocked me back and the other guys in the team back there um you know I come to set back up in the back of the pickup truck I set back up and and then uh I was like this can't be happening like I just took a shot you

know what I mean I and there's blood already pouring out I'm thinking it's mainly coming from Adam I'm busted my nose before you know so it's like man it's coming out like holy [ __ ] everybody's going to be coming to check On me like there's no way I'm not going on this Mission you know what I mean like this is my first this is my first one like ever my whole life has built up to this moment and I get hit with a 2x4 in the nose so so my 2 I um he comes

around to the front of me and I'm thinking that uh the blood's coming out of my nose cuz there's a lot on my kit coming out of my nose he comes around and he's like cuz they seen it happen you know me he comes Around he's like you all right I'm like yeah I'm okay I didn't know that the nasal artery had got cut right there and it was like just like dumping blood out and he's like yeah man no you're not and I was like [ __ ] man no way and then uh I

was like this isn't happening there there's no way that this is happening to me right now and everybody else is loading the plane you know all the rest of the guys are loading up the plane some guys are coming by and they so the Medic comes up to me and um and he's like look at me I'm looking at him he's like and I'm starting to go like this he's like look at me and I'm like I'm like I'm okay I'm okay I'm okay and I was like I'm not okay you know and then I

almost pass out lay down get my feet up you know just from the the shock and the little bit of a blood loss thing elevating my feet meanwhile everybody's loading up the plane dude's taking my shotgun off of me you know What I mean just pulling charges out of my pants you know what I mean cuz obviously I'm not going so going to have to cover down and I was like there's no way this is happening man and um so then I start feeling better like I leveled back out and I set up and I

was like hey Mike I'm good the medic I'm like I mean I'm good he's like yeah Steve's got a blast off of you you know what I mean the PA guy that was there and he comes up old crusty dude you know what I mean A warrior and he's like looks at me he's like you all right and I'm like yeah I'm good I'm totally I'm good and he's like okay get on the plane and uh so I was like get back grab my shotgun you know I mean go back getting my [ __ ]

from everybody and uh and man it took a long time for that and put some ice on it and uh just to get it stop from bleeding and then we did a full mission you know I mean it was regular the mission was just a regular Mission going after bad guys It was the first one so it was um I didn't know how I would be um in combat sober new thing you know I didn't or with a God in my life and I was like hey how I'm going to I know what I was

like when I was hateful angry man with no God in life now what am I and I know a lot of that is still in me I didn't change who I was you know what I mean it's like um so I was a little bit con a little concerned like Hey am I going to go too far am I going to you know what's going to happen you know know what I mean I I wasn't really afraid of it but I hadn't experienced it yet you know and so uh we get on target we do

the target it's a normal one good guys mix with bad guys we rolled up the bad guys didn't mess with the good guys you know what I mean so I was appropriate in my response to every single thing in that particular one no gunfire we were on it super fast uh a Lot of hands on stuff um but I was absolutely appropriate you know when I applied force and when not too wouldn't be kind and um and then loaded everything up on the shinook you know what I mean pulled the bad guys out of there

with that and that was under deficit you know I mean it had lost a good amount of blood I mean my nose man was like literally crushed in from this side I mean it was it was bad and uh I was so happy um for a multitude of Reasons you know what I mean like hey I did my first wartime hit you know what I mean like that was super cool and then uh like now I'm part of the war you know what I mean all this time you know when 9/11 happened I'd never got

to get my hands on somebody you know and so it's like all the way and then appropriately professionally you know whatever that was and I didn't go too far which was good on the personal side cuz like I said I did have a little bit Of concern like am I just going to be a rage monster or cuz that's what I was at one time in my life you know and I was like so it's fine I was like like yet again it's just like okay man trusting in God you know I mean and doing

what I'm supposed to be doing just makes me exactly who I need to be you know either merciful or merciless you know what I mean as long as I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing and handling my business appropriately Putting in the work the SP spiritual mental emotional all of it work you know what I mean hey I'm going to make some really good decisions uh combat wise how did you mentally prepare for that first op mean you only had two months with your yeah unit with your guys before you deployed I so just

was so ready I mean it was like 11 years of mental preparation for it m you I mean again being a seasoned kind of guy it was it was like I didn't make light of it by Any means uh you know when it was the real deal and it was in a foreign land and you know I mean it was all of that U but it was all it was way more exciting than it was uh anything anx you know I mean like apprehension kind of wise like man I was just super super excited man

you know what I mean about with these guys doing this stuff like for our country and for my family you know what I mean because we've seen what they can Do to our families you know what I mean because that's a lot of guys we have the discussions of like hey you know military uh always came before my family and if if if you're not and if someone who's in the military is not saying that they're lying to themselves you know what I'm saying because when the military calls you have to answer that call and

it's a voluntary Army so hey I've I've chosen to place that ahead of my family it's just the Truth and um but I believe that by doing that that's how I'm protecting my family you know with the skill set that I have and the abilities so I mean I would say by going and doing all those dangerous things is abs absolutely how I'm taking care of my family you know back at home even though assuming all that risk but yeah that so Tom you have so many 12 deployments yeah over a thousand direct actions mhm

we're not going to be able to cover all that no we will not so I want I want to we're going to jump around a little bit okay so with all of that experience and in thousands of operations let's talk about the first one where you engaged to somebody okay let's go right there where are you the op was well the the setup was is these guys were going to conduct attacks on Americans the next morning uh through signal intelligence they found out that they were loaded for bear had uh bombs had uh weaponry and

They were going going to conduct conduct attacks on Americans our job was to go in on hilos and and then ground ass salt just a simple land and sort it out mhm so whenever we landed we landed real close uh couldn't quite land on an L you know just because of the due to the terrain and as soon as we landed um I was in the on this this lead bird closest to the ropes so on the tail end and the other bird was Landing over this way and so big thing in my mind was

To be and it was all night vision was to be like look at for that first assaulter that came in my spread from the other bird you know I mean obviously what's going on in front I got my guy to the left but really like cuz I don't I don't know where they're going to land I don't know what angle they're going to come in on but I need to see whenever one of our assaulters comes into my line of sight so I got my mind on that piece and the dude ends up they didn't

have any Weapons on them in the vehicle which is weird like d so he homie we're getting off the bird and he goes around the back of the car opens up the like kind of the trunk he has like bed rolls and stuff on on top of all the guns so he's doing all this and meanwhile we just closing the you know I mean start closing the distance we're just moving up because it's like you know his Intel you don't know if it's 100% you know but got an idea what he's doing then he gets

Everything that he needs out of the way and and he picks up he gets picks up a PKM and CU I know it cuz just a cutout handle in the side and as soon as he cleared I mean it didn't even clear the you know the trunk well but as soon as I seen that it was a weapon there in his hand that's whenever I started shooting him and it was clear as day for me as far as again so much training so much time and I was so hyper alert not so much on the

situation with the guy but Because I was looking for my ass alter coming in I was like super high alert but I mean it was like every dot every I mean I knew where every single round was Landing you know I mean until everybody else came online and started shooting also and then everybody got out and it was a big gunfight at that point well you know they they didn't get much shooting then but we did kind of deal how many of them were there uh there was one two in one vehicle and three in

Another so five total but there was two teams were so eight guys on the ground you know I mean it was over and 10 seconds you know what I mean it they didn't get any rounds off on us and we knew it was the right one but that was the first time that you know I mean I had killed another human being uh 100% sure me right then at that time so throughout the throughout our interview so far you've you've talked a lot about God talked a lot About uh kind of you know being merciful

mercifulness it sounds like you have been almost concerned that you would it would go out of control that you were going to you were going to embrace this rage and it didn't I mean so how did it feel the first time man nothing yeah none it was like I did my job like finally you know not like oh my God yeah Yeah I kill I'm not a sociopath you know what I mean so it's like hey my job as a war fighter you know I mean as a you know I mean hunter of men you

know bad guys is like okay I finally just did my job it was almost like a relief like finally you know what I mean I like I I fulfilled my job description not like you know a notch on the gun or I got my kill on you know none of that but like pure professional and purely like man all right I I did my job is a Christian Did it did it did it affect you spiritually at all was there any question like zero what happens now yeah no uhuh I I had none I was

super clear uh so I wasn't one of the uh and know just categorize it I'm kind of stereotyping but I wasn't one of the Crusader guys right like Islam Christianity you know some guys developed that Crusader kind of bond for me and my relationship with my God is uh And I am a Christian uh but how my relationship works with it's like when I go before my maker uh and I will um and I tell him what I'm done I'm going to tell him that I murdered people because murder defined is you know you had

a plan and you executed the plan and you killed a human being like uh I believe that at 100% absolutely is necessary and I have my wise of why this human end needs to die and I killed them but it's going to be up to him whether he says Yeah or no on it you know I mean but I'm not going to hide in some piece of the Bible that says it's okay that I kill other human beings because this says that if that is the truth cool I win on that anyway you know but

I'm not going before my god with some weak ass [ __ ] about like well so and so taught me and I was raised you know but that's just my own personal belief a lot of guys fully you know need to and understand and embrace that mindset but no without a Doubt this human being had met the criteria uh of being executed you know and and I had and I have never had a problem with that it's never affected you mentally no it has affected my Humanity yeah but as far as in my job description

doing the job um no uh thrill Or Glory of it and no just and it's like just the job just the professional piece of it um but it what did what was the question I got Lost well basically what I was asking is you know a lot of guys I think a lot of guys sometimes struggle with with with that you know with with well this just happened now there's no turning back you know and um yeah I know what you mean now and it's I never have man I never and I'll expound on it

the only time that the killing uh got to me was whenever started chipping away my Humanity uh of It but as far as what do you mean by that yeah so what I mean by that is my belief system is is I really after all that learned about humans and spirituality and everything like hey man we're not we're not we're not meant to harm one anothers we're not we we're not meant to do that we're meant to be social meant to procreate you know what I mean and provide for one another you know what I'm

saying Like I believe that at our core that's what it is however we also know that humans are humans and you know what I mean and War has been forever and people some people just need to be killed you know I mean like I don't really know how to describe it so 9/11 right 911 happens our country collective decision was a reckoning like they killed us yall go kill them as a nation I mean there was some folks that humanitarians that you Know understood peace and that kind of stuff but you know I mean that's

what we all went and did and that's the job description but this is what I learned throughout all the deployments and I mean have killed a good amount of people um is that when a human being that takes another human being's life um and they're not a sociopath or a psychopath it it chips away at the humanity and I'll just use eye statement Because I don't want to impose anything that I'm saying on any other veteran or any other person this is only on me is that over the years and over the deployments and over

the amount of times done um the humanity starts going away meaning uh it's what am I trying to say with that is easier for me to be hard uh a little callous around my heart as far as lose the humanity of it I understand what You're saying yeah where I'm not looking at this person like I'm looking at this as a a person until I P them and now they're not a person you know or you know they they're demonstrating a threat now they're not a person however they are a person and as a human

being taking another human being's life in my experience there was a toll on me because I am a human being uh and over that amount of time You know what I mean it just chipped away and chipped away and chipped away so I got more calloused more kind of hardened um yeah and then add TBI to that which is part of the story we'll get too you know I mean it it it turned you know it turned um but that was what I mean about the humanity piece of it you know but uh but I

fully get back to me being a realist man like war is hell like they didn't just come up with that slogan you Know what I'm saying like that was come from the generations that experienced it man all the Innocence that dies all of the I mean that's War like there is that's War that's what we're signing up to do is war um then we experience it and then we get to decide whether we want to experience it again or not um the most comfortable I've ever been in my life is in war that is uh

with all the horror with all the stuff that I hate with all the Stuff that I love me as a as a as a warrior as a human being and the god-given gifts and the training that I've done and put on this planet man there's the time whenever I would feel home the most man is whenever I was making that walk at the balad airport you know from the plane going to get our gear to disperse to wherever we were deploying to in Iraq man it was like uh and there's a why behind it you

know What I mean I mentioned uh number one it's it's what I was built to do it's what I'm wired to do uh it's what I've wanted to do by choice um and man just the aspects of it the rules are clear crystal clear there's no easier living meaning decision making to me in in ever than in war it's kill or be killed man it's uh you're trying to kill me I'm trying to kill you whoever doesn't die you know what I mean today You know wins this round and um it's just so clear do

you think you ever became addicted to it yeah I did man once I got sideways with it after I got my TBI and stuff um yeah I I got sideways with it uh because something had broken in my head too man there was a little bit of factors but then I got to the point like like I said it was super professional for a long time and then 06 you know what I mean whenever I got my TBI then it became Personal and that's and that's when there was a little bit of Soul sickness that

happened with me again it was still done correctly but it the intent behind it had changed you know it was it was it was a lot more personal uh and that was more damaging to my person uh later on not at the time but to your point of like addicted to it like it's like yeah there was one point even said it to my brother um whenever we were driving down the road coming back from a Meeting in between deployments as uh I've said to him he's like uh I don't remember which deployment it was

eight or nine or went in between and he's just he's just like hey man how how long you going to keep going man you know and I was like what every like I'm not going to stop you know what I mean like they're doing it I'm doing it my team's doing it I'm doing it and then I thought about it more and then I told him at that time in My life which is probably 08 09 near the end is like hey man the only time I feel anything in life is when I'm in a

gunfight and then I looked over at him and his had he's had tears running down his face and I looked at him and I was like [ __ ] you know he's like man something's changed like something's wrong man like that's wrong like I should be able I mean I have a wonderful family I have a I have all this wonderful stuff in my Life and the only thing and what I just said was the truth and that was the only time I feel anything is whenever I'm in a gunfight yeah I knew that something

had changed do you understand why that why that is completely what is it so everything was professional you know what I mean throughout man I was Pro unbothered really tough times lost some guys you know what I mean like dealt with a whole lot lot of things but the Things that I began to have to deal with wasn't the killing you know it wasn't wasn't what war the thing that I was completely and totally unprepared for and [ __ ] crushed me was caring for wounded American soldiers like that that was that was what got

me and so it like um so and there was really and thank God I was there I mean I always CU I mean the level of uh medical trauma medical experience you know that we have I mean working on live Tissue like we were more experienced than most Medics you know and uh so but I would be in these three different situations that were mass casualty events to some different degree the first one was in ' 04 whenever um we were out with conventional guys and um and it was uh you know there was one

got killed and eight of them were wounded and which just me and another operator provided medical support to him and their medic Who was psychologically checked out at the time not not as a negative comment but you mean he had the the freeze mode fight flight freeze he was just stuck in freeze for a little while so we were working and then he end up came to so I was working on Americans during that time and it was just uh just the feeling of it you know what I mean and their blood on my hands

and stuff it was likeo that was the reality of War to me was American blood Um and then the second one got a little bit even more intimate um was 04 time frame I had a lot of significant emotional events in ' 04 what was was that the invasion of fuia that was part of it that was one of them uh so in ' 04 which it ties into what we're talking about so it won't it won't derail us too much so in in ' 04 you know that's when everything changed you know 03 time

we were chasing the deck everybody's chasing the deck you know now the decks Gone or mostly gone all the big boys are gone and now they're talking about these foreign Fighters you know it's like [ __ ] is that we're chasing the de you know what I mean and and during that time frame other than the guys on the initial Invasion uh that that was a lot of war that they fought you know and then uh then there was just pockets of it though after that you know and a lot of times we were running

around the country like with impunity you know what I mean like We're doing whatever we wanted how we wanted and not really you know really getting into like hammered by it there was no there was no IEDs at that time either that was a new thing you know I mean that that was new so' 04 the whole War had changed even though it was Iraq back to Iraq and um you know that was when they just my one of my deployments started whenever uh they hung up the Blackwater guys you know when they first hung

those guys up that was when our Trip first kind of started we were in ratti and um and so that's where we were so uh prior to um the first battle of fujia we were in ratti doing different stuff and then there was uh there was a mass casualty event so we uh at our little base that we were at the big base was called Junction City there was Big Marine base you know was all that in ratti and then they came over the radio it's like hey anybody with medical Training come to the cash

at Junction City you know I was like [ __ ] all right you know so we go over there and um and bet this The Surreal kind of stuff you know is like okay they're calling for everybody that's a full up cash like it's a running cash already like it's this a something ginormous figured they brought in a convoy or something you know cuz you normally hear Mort fire and [ __ ] I mean it's ratti and' 04 man it's hot and um so we're going over there we Don't really know what has happened we're

supposed to be going to the cash but we come by this big open field look across this open field and uh and there's there's a a small crater there and then there's three dudes uh one guy he's dead you know and the the one guy of course is his best friend or buddy who's doing CPR on him uh and then there's somebody the medic you know that was just allowing him to continue to do that because that was obvious Obviously his best friend and cuz he's dead as [ __ ] and um so we go

running up there and it was like uh and we had one a unit met with us you know um and we actually had a a few surgeons that were traveling with us so we had like God had placed the Dream Team for this event on top of what they already had I'm talking like almost three surgeons were with us and uh so that goes down so we see that and our medic he understood what was going on Like this guy couldn't stop doing that because that's his buddy like he's gonna die before he stops doing

that so he grabbed him you know and he's like hey man he's dead like I'm a medic you know what I mean you know and then he was and then the other medic took over Hey where's everybody else because this is not what they needed everybody it's like everything else is at the cash we still hadn't known what had happened we didn't know what had Happened so what happened is um they were getting ready to do a big Convoy like the Baghdad or wherever they were going uh they were you know on base you know

in a protected area somewhat protected area and they were going to do a convoy brief he bring everybody in right they given a convoy breef with like 50 vehicles I mean it was [ __ ] ton of dudes so there's like 60 people in a you know corralled up in a small group and then 82 mm mortar lands perfectly in The middle of them perfectly in the middle of them they couldn't make it up and they didn't have most you know they appropriately didn't have their armor on a lot of them because they didn't need

it you know I mean like they're in the F you know I mean they're where they they can be so it destroyed them so there when we got to the cach and we made the corner and came back around there's 32 dudes laid out bleeding out probably at Least 10 of them are like bleeding out right now uh there's already about half an inch of Blood on the whole little concrete pad that we were on on the back of this little building and man and it's uh it's summertime you know what I mean it's hot

um or Springtime is still hot as [ __ ] and so we come back there and we're like wow over like just start working you know what I mean so we just immediately start plugging holes and everything There's I mean it was huge event you know by three guys that already died I mean it was so much that 32 guys got medically evaced out so not just little ones here there like we put them on sh Nooks 32 of them like that level of so that was like and you know Mass casually defined as there's

more wounded than there is folks that can help the wounded you know and um so of course you know everybody went to work um it it was you know we just all went to work Plugging holes tying stuff off stick I mean everybody we were just all working and then all these little I mean you experienced them too all these little surreal things that would happen um so guys that were on the gurnie that were bleed bleeding a lot and it was super hot outside you know and dripping blood dripping blood and then there's this

like stag Mite of coagulated blood you know and then this little stag Tite of coagulated blood hanging you know just Looking at going [ __ ] is that you know so it's just like the odd things as would always hang me up and so we were constantly working for a few hours and then uh it turned into it should have been a selection event you know I mean as hard as that was and almost passing out chugging water and um so everything calmed down you know so motions aside everything calm down and uh so we

started cleaning up right now it's to clean up the whole I Mean it's just all the blood everywhere got the guys out you know what I mean and um so we're cleaning it up and then I just had this overwhelming I started tripping out a little bit like now the emotions you know I mean are welling up in me man of if I just didn't want um I just didn't want their blood to soak into that [ __ ] ground you know what I mean in that place you know so I was like scooping it

up doing all this stuff and nurse comes over you know and she's You know been around sees his nurse and she sees I'm kind of got a little bit of something going on you know and she's like hey what are you doing I like yeah I'm cleaning she's like okay need any help nope okay so I keep cleaning you know what I mean and then I'm then I start getting weird with it you know what I mean like I got a scrub brush you know like trying to get up little micro pieces of and there's

like puddles of blood everywhere else you know what I Mean so I'm like it's just my mind trying to protect itself from the amount of emotion that is that is overwhelming me at this time you know so I'm I'm tripping out pretty good and I'm just trying to clean the blood clean the blood clean the blood and nurse comes over again she's like hey look up at her she's like like yeah what you know she's like what are you doing I'm cleaning up like I said before she said I know and she said and you're

Done with that now uh because what's happening next is we're going to bring that fire truck over here we're going use a water hose and we're going to wash all this Blood down cuz we're going to get ready to have to do this again you understand like Roger that so I got up and I was okay you know but it affected me man that was the first thing I was a no4 you know it really affected me it was a big I wasn't prepared like all the things that we talked about prepared For I was

not prepared to deal with Wounded American soldiers um you know mauled mangled you know what I mean like all of that piece um that was the first thing and then the other kind of aspects of significant emotion how long did take you to rebalance pretty quick man it was like cuz there was uh me and a couple of my buddies on the same team were together doing that piece and um and then our other teammates there um so we got back You know we talked to like man that was [ __ ] up right you

know and I was like man yeah he's like are you okay you know I mean yeah I'm okay you all right I'm like man I don't know you I mean that was a lot man that was like wow you know and uh so we were kind of processing that was the thing about me being sober was is like I did not I did not have the benefit of uh medication you know meaning external whether that was with booze you Know and again not judging anybody that that did their thing that way like but I just

couldn't man so I I mean I had to do a lot of writing a lot of praying uh a lot of talking uh you know but my connection to reality and War I think that's is funny it's like cuz you know I've been sober quite a long time at that point and I was sponsoring a lot of guys but uh I'd be in Iraq on a ridium phone like calling my sponses checking on them seeing how they're doing like Hey what the [ __ ] you going to meetings like hey you sponsoring those you know

I mean I'd be digging into them man of like what's happening you know what I mean but that was my touch back to reality CU there wasen a lot of guys that I could talk to on the levels that I needed to talk to U we had the best of friends that would have done anything for me but we were just on different paths in life you know spiritually or whatever so so I would always continue To do that so we would process it some even though we didn't call it that it would be at

least we'd kind of talk about it a little bit and U kind of a it you know what I mean and um but it wasn't too awful at that point in time but then some things started stacking up you know so then it was like then we're at the first battle of FIA hold on hold on yeah how's I mean are you telling your wife any of this stuff no so the uh what are you telling her so my wife and I like that's why I'm so uh um you know a husband and wife's Dynamic

is so special um and so different between every single one of us you know so my wife and I are are pretty freaking tough people you know as as human beings she's probably way not probably she's way tougher than I am and um so and we've never been the kind of folks where where where we share our whole worlds to one another you know what I mean they're just uh we've always had this wonderful Great communication honesty respectful we communicate what needs to be communicated but like she I didn't want her to know certain things

about me and she didn't want to know them either because she doesn't want to think any differently of me and I don't want her to think any different of me more than likely she wouldn't when you say things do you mean what was happening over there yeah whether it was uh so here's an example cuz it happened to us one Night you know we're laying in bed and and I told I was like I'm going through a lot you know just from the deployment just kind of you know but I'm hitting my meetings I'm talking

to my guys you know I mean I'm working I'm got in the process because we don't get into each other's business she has her girls that she handles her stuff with and I have my guys and what we need to talk about together we talk about together and uh but this is how when we realize that Yeah we're never going to get it right between the two of us is uh so we're setting in bed and I'm going through a lot of stuff and and she's thinking that oh this and I told her was head

deployment you know and um she's like man he probably feels really bad because he had to kill people right and I you know what I mean that's not the truth you know and then I and for me I'm feeling super bad because the guys the injured guys you know wounded Them Americans you know what I mean that's what I was trying to reconcile you know I mean was war and this is part of war and like piecing all that stuff together that no one had talked about us yet and so she finally just came out

with it and said like hey I know you're upset I know you don't want to talk about it but I want you to know it's okay and I know that you're upset because you had to kill people and I started laughing she's like what I'm Like what I'm like what are you talking about she's like what are you talking about I was like no I don't feel bad about it at all and she's like well I don't need to know that and I was like okay so here's our rules moving forward we won't talk about

what happens unless it's necessary for us to talk about them you know so that's our little Dynamic so a lot of a lot of the stuff like Lori won't even watch a lot of this you know what I mean I was like hey some Of still to this day yeah because she doesn't need to she doesn't want to she has no desire she doesn't care it's not and she's not impressed you know what I'm saying she uh she's always been my grounding agent you know what I mean she's been what's connected me to reality true

reality not what I may believe reality is at the time you know so yeah she has she has no interest like there was like a lot of times like see me in training teaching guys or talking About teaching guys she's like wow I didn't know you knew that you know and I'm like yeah I kind of know stuff about this you know it's a big joke with us but she's always been my that's why she's my person man i' yeah it wouldn't be wouldn't wouldn't have made it through all that stuff then and now yes

so that but stuff started I think the kind of a theme that I've seen with with some others not not everyone is there's uh for me it was an Accumulation effect that's when I talked about that chip in the way of the humanity pieace mhm you know so I was you know it was more war you know and it was real it was intense and there was a lot of gunfights man it was a lot of really messed up stuff um all the way especially bloody 05 into 06 and then in ' 06 was where

it all changed for me um SW version of the mission is is that we short version well that obsc wise short Version is we were on a three-day Mission with a conventional unit um this team that I I was it wasn't my team it was all guys that I knew but they were short of 2ic and they needed me to come with them on this three-day op and it was in uh they called it the triangle of death MCH mudia usfia just south of Bagdad it was a southern foreign fighter Pipeline and that's and we

had just lost a guy you know a trip before it they shot down three or four helicopters I Mean it was it was on um so he wanted to clean up that area um it's full of foreign Fighters and um so it was good and um this this uh this Battalion so was a battalion operation U and we were just there to augment and assist and um and we had sniper our sniper team and um I was a 2ic had team leader and two other dudes so four of us and um so with this conventional

unit doing Battalion Ops I mean it was textbook you know like Companies out you know mortars in the back fire support blocking positions you know I mean it was like textbook it's kind of Epic in this shitty area but it was also kind of a setup like they knew that we were coming you know and um and those were real Fighters you know that are there that's where they had um it's the old Russian power plant where they had uh mangled the 101st guys that got um that they mangled them all up remember they captured

them and that Was that same area okay same Bridges same places where they found them so we were in that area and we're helping them out with uh uh fires and all the different stuff also got a sniper you know duties that we're doing well man we're taking like easy 20 rounds probably more but minimum like 20 rounds of mort fire within 100 meter radius of the position that we're at a you know I mean like it's damn near D you know I mean they're Just walking it adjusting fire on each one and it's along

the uh you know along the river so it's all that single canopy jungle you know where they're firing the ERS from so you can't companies are going out looking for them and that kind of stuff so so we're sitting there eating all these rounds and in this area that we're at is our our sniper position and um and then you got the rest of the Battalion is out doing Ops headquarters is in an area but the mortars are at Near our position so you've got the the mortar tubes are there and the mortar gun teams

and the in this little trailer the pre-existing structure that was there but it's literally a single wide trailer that's there um the the FDC guys mobile ballistic computers you know what I mean they mortars uh the mortar guys they're in that trailer um cuz they're running fire missions out of there they're dropping you know mortars for the uh teams that Are out we're just doing that so we eat all those rounds um and and and we go and talk to the command because they were friends of ours the guys were like hey they're dialing that

position then man we number one we're not staying there like uh we're and number two is like hey let's um let's you don't have to have that position like we can cover that bridge you know what I mean back from over here and they made the decision to to keep guys there and I Don't fault him for it because it's conventional guys you know conventional mindset kind of die in place positions you know what I mean it's just I understand it I don't fault him for it at all I'm bsing with a couple of the

dudes and um you know we're all kitted up everybody's doing what they're supposed to be doing and uh you know and man then mortar 82 mm mortar round lands 20 yards from me and it landed in the trailer between the FDC guys right in between the two of them right there that motor landed right there in between them damn um so I'm these two guys are hit so I mean super close got blown off my feet broken uh knocked out for don't know how short or how long um but then come to uh and then

when I come to there's nothing but you know I mean I mean we ate the round you know so it's just nothing but dirt and and dust and smoke And fire cuz you know you ever seen a single wide trailer like a single wide trailer burn from into to end within about seven minutes you know what I mean so that thing was already on fire cooking and um but then I come to and I look around and realize like what has happened and then man the scream start you know I mean as far as the

guys screaming a sound that I no one had ever prepared me for and that i' had never Heard anybody talk about um now I'd heard enemy screaming before um different uh right wrong or indifferent it's different to me um but it was Americans men screaming and making sounds that grown men shouldn't make you know and so it was like all right what overwhelmed and something's wrong like I mean I knew it just got blowed up you know so uh I was like okay whatever so there's a fire and I mean I I know what had

happened like holy [ __ ] it hit the Guys I knew there was four guys in that in that thing so it's on fire all their gears in there I mean they're fully kid in out combat Lotus so cookoffs are are about to start um there's all kinds of um you know not primed I can't think of the word live mortar rounds 81's you know setting right there to be in the tube they're prep ready to launch you know what I mean fused up ready to go and so I'm pulling these guys uh these guys

out cuz there's not again back to Not really any madx around and we got two guys that are up on the gun uh me and another operator are down there working and all the other guys are are working In Pockets of different dudes and um yeah man and it was so just start working I end up putting like you know four tourniquet on you know three different guys I mean they were bad blow blown up you know and um and I'm just man I'm not something's wrong um and so anyway doing all of all of

that stuff But what had happened in that moment uh when I'm going through it and all the emotions that are going through me and my mind that has now received a traumatic brain injury cuz I can trace my life up to September the 1st of 2006 what my life was like before that and my life what it's like been after that so but during that time everyone that I knew had been blown up by to some degree you know and uh so I didn't thinking nothing of it but um at that time what Happened too

that was my third mass casualty event and it uh so I had something broken in my head but also man my heart like broke into a million pieces and then those million pieces broke into a million pieces man I was devastated um and the reason why I was devastated was cuz when we were around the conventional guys especially like we were like big brother you know I mean hey we're around everybody feels better Like hey man we're like oh [ __ ] dudes are here like we're we're all right you know and I love that

I mean that's who I want to be you know but I had a just a little bit of distorted thinking and and you know misconception that like I could actually protect them it's unrealistic expectation but my job was to my job was to protect American soldiers especially the ones that were around me and so now for the third time I had failed to do that so to what does a Protector do when he's failed to protect that which matters the most cuz deployed status my loyalty chain is American soldiers um the number one and I

can't protect them I have uh I have failed in that mission so it was devastating man and then everything and whatever else was going on inside of me now with a broken decision maker you know in the executive functioning of my brain so it it was uh the big heroes you know Of of of that day man was uh cuz then the whole time they we packaging the guys up dead guys packaged up it's daylight still man those birds aren't coming this is the triangle of death yeah they call it because the helicopters have been

shot down it's like man but I know we're just going through the motions to keep the morale up for as long as we can you know what I mean because how it affects wounded soul ERS you know what I mean like hey you Got it hang in there and uh man and just satting there and then next thing you know [ __ ] yeah like I'm I mean I was just like dumping of emotion man because I just KN I had already accepted that I'd already got into the mission planning of like how we're going

to talk through this out like why they're not coming and like hey you know how I was trying to problem solve of like how we're going to Keep morale up cuz they're not [ __ ] coming so I was already way down that road and and then they started coming in man it was just overwhelming man cuz that was at that moment at that time in that place the most dangerous thing any humans could ever do and I guarantee you that they got asked if they wanted to do that mission because no one that was

a no fly zone period end the story that's it and so they came in man and they came in and landed and uh you know we loaded The guys up went back um so obviously super intense but that wasn't the end of it uh so then uh so I'm like hurting physically you know now and then all of that emotion's going off and then all of those screams just on repeat in my head I failed at protecting you know what I mean I'm H you know what I mean all of that is just like on

me in me and through me and so hey we we switch out with the guys on the tower and some of the guys that we switched Out on the tower was guy I went to Q course with you know and um so we switch out with that so they're there so here we are in our new position September the 2nd um so that was September the 1st when that happened September the 2nd we were talking about dates and numbers earlier right my sobriety date is September the 2nd of ' 92 this this is September the

2nd of 2006 right so uh so at one of the mo MCE So I'm sitting there on that Tower so happy to be alive right I mean like whoa I'm so happy to be alive and with the same conviction felt like but like such a coward for being that happy about being alive when all these others had died and all these other families had just lost their loved ones and I'm happy about being alive logically I know that doesn't make sense but in that moment in That time it was just overwhelming so this this miraculously

beautiful day for me meaning my sobriety day you know what I mean and everything that had had come from that time from then to now now that same date is this date you know and shortly after the sun came up another mortar round landed right where my ruck sack was where those new guys that from the tower we had just SW Switched Off two more dead more injured more birds coming in on my sobriety date [ __ ] yeah man so it was a lot um so back to how do you recover you know how

do you get get how do you get back in the game you know what I mean like like okay I've just failed at my mission of protecting American soldiers well you either quit which I'm not going to quit so then how do I reconcile it it's like okay if I can't protect him from a defensive kind of posture it's like if there's not any bad Guys to harm them then they can't be harmed so my next from that moment to my last deployment in 2009 uh was about as killing as many of them as be

or capturing as many as it could but get them out of the out of the game you know I mean because they can't hurt the others but that's when it got personal you know and like I said I had an undiagnosed untreated TBI which meant that my executive functioning and you Know and from a physiological level I was no longer processing you know chemicals right you know at that time so from that time on it became personal um and I was really good at it you know which was another really trippy thing I didn't think

too long about it again we talked about my beliefs and I trust that my God is going to put me exactly where I need to be when I need to be there all that stuff and it was a little bit trippy right because it was I was ate up With it like I would do um all the target a lot of the target packets you know what I mean and putting them together on the Intel side of the house and I geeked out over that stuff too man I was a total Little Nerd and so

I would get in on the targeting aspects of it and then obviously get in on the hits Then I then I did the battlefield interrogations too so I mean start to finish I was working the whole Target to set up more targets like that's that was My life and I loved it and I was good at it and um and one of the weird things that I didn't study on too much is is that and it just is a testimon to the power of my God you know what I mean it's like I'm one person

right one brain doing these things and in one aspect of my life say a guy that I'm sponsoring you know through the 12 steps and in sobriety my job is to help them build their Spirit up you know what I mean because they're crushed like how do I Build them you I mean assist in building them as as a man as a human their Spirit you know everything and I was doing that and I'm good at that and uh and then in the other field my job is to break this man Spirit the complete opposite

and I'm really good at that too it's like how do those two things coexist I don't know I just say my prayers I show up to work and I do what's in front of me you know and um but I was the thing is is that um That now tying that back into like that's what the thing of what changed it for the war and back to the humanity aspect of it started really being effective cuz it was personal none of my actions were the same it wasn't like all of a sudden I started running

around killing people you know what I mean cuz that wasn't the case yeah it was just the intent you know was so much different and then you know I mean it's 2006 I probably did you find Yourself anticipating more meaning like hoping that they make we talked about your first engagement oh yeah yeah it was very hoping they'd vote to shoot yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah because it was the whole thing I mean me and and and a lot of a lot of us Warriors that do what I it's it's at that time do what

I need you to do yes so we can get back to normal gameplay back to the rules the rules of War that's what we would always say is like man would somebody please just start shooting you know because prior to the shots being fired you know it's kind of like that Terminator screen like you know you're looking and there's 10 things coming to your mind your processes and everything is it a threat is it not a threat is a Hy you know what I mean they're like it it is consuming you know what I mean

just making looking At the team looking at movement where are we on nav you know what I mean all of that stuff and then they start shooting it's like now we all know the rules yeah yeah so it would it would just be uh but not in a but even with me like wanting that to happen it wasn't this uh viciousness of it was just like hey man let's vote quicker let's get on let's let's get the game play going you know you vote faster MH what does that Mean meaning that like if they were

going to whatever the trigger was to meet the Rules of Engagement uh which you know all that change depending on the level of intel if they were physically On Target that may meet the trigger for engagement or if they had weapons or it was the demonstration you know how they moved you know aggressively kind of piece so it was just the want for it to go to whatever way it was going to fast enough either Come out quicker or is that an individual Vote or a team vote you mean an us guy side I'm talking

about their them voting the bad guys side okay no I'm talking about the vag guys voting yeah no team-wise we were always on the same on the same thing because everybody was in alignment with the Roe you know I mean so if it and if the Roe was dependent on I mean some missions where you were you know we kill targets you Know I mean where it's like if they're on target PID that's the trigger you know what I mean if it was if they have guns they have guns trigger if it was they need

to be shooting at us then it needs to be you know what I mean so per Roe whatever that was we wanted them to vote quicker you know what I mean like to get on let's let's get on with it so we can get on to the next mission so you're the only unit that I've heard that uses that term what vote oh really Yeah I've heard yeah heard several I've interviewed several of you guys now and and uh I've just I've not heard the term before yeah so because we're willing to go with I

mean we're going to go with our Roe so the so you when you say when we talk about voting yeah you're saying are they going to vote to live vote to die yeah absolutely so if especially if it's like a vehicle interdiction or something that's hard and fast and you have to Make quick you know quick decisions you know super fast or a lot of people are going to get hurt it's like it it might be like hey if they do anything other than compliance immediate and and 100% compliance then they voted that we're now

rolling it into the next phase you know what I mean which is now is it from capture to kill yeah because of the Roe but yeah it's always their vote not us yeah yeah so that as far as when I'm using it that term yeah Makes sense yeah so that was uh yeah man it it was uh a lot of those uh you know and I just had always had incredible teammates man and they uh they really ke kept keep me on the rails because those last few years you know what I mean uh last

few deployments you know I was I was not okay not okay emotionally me my my performance was still [ __ ] perfect you know what I mean but it was uh I was already struggling a lot you Know and I always knew that I was like man I'm something's bad wrong like cuz my tools aren't working you know prior to this point all my tools whether it was prayer meditation talking reaching back I mean could always one thing that I haven't talked about this whole time is my my actual brother was with me in the

AG second in Special Forces and at the unit we were in different are you shidding me was that you your brother was with you yeah yeah not in the exact Like with me on the ground in the same uh subunit you know what I mean but like we were in like when we were in the 82nd we were in different brigades but we were in the 82nd together when we were in Special Forces I was in seventh group he was in third group when we were out at the unit you know he was in the

breacher side I was on the operator side so we were our path was the same path along the way whoa so I would be able hold on so let's go back to that conver I did not realize that yeah so let's go back to that conversation in the truck yeah so he was all he's also an operator no on the breacher side so he was on the pure breacher side but you know a lot of the same uh training criteria and on the same deployments just different job set yeah so he was you know direct

support you know for saber so it was yeah he was on all the targets doing all that stuff in all the fights and stuff but he was on the breacher side and Um yeah holy [ __ ] yeah so so so this this isn't even so it's a family ordeal yeah I mean it's well what I'm getting at is I I had I had assumed that your brother was a civilian who had not been exposed to any type of oh man any type of combat trauma yeah and and you struck an emotion with him when

he realized that killing no longer affected you correct yeah whenever I said the only time I so that's even deeper than than what I had originally Thought because he had been exposed to all of that oh he had been yeah man he and to hear you say it with his exposure to it because killing is a it's a [ __ ] me it's it's part of it ex you know and and wow yeah man that was that was why he a lot of killing yeah man because he was qualified you know what I mean really

knew what he he had felt the loss he had been in the fights you know I mean all of that same thing he Was you know I mean he got a different job while while still being out there he got moved into upper management kind of deal so he wasn't on you know on the ground as much but you know when a civilian sees you the change it's just it's it's a different level a different level because he'd been exposed and been a part of and so he's also somewhat has to be somewhat emotionally detached

and and callous absolutely and so to to have Somebody that to have somebody close to you it's just different it's different than than a a civilian friend who has no no context no point of reference exactly they have there is no point of reference for them they just they know that that they it's sad yeah but for that for that that it takes it to a completely different level yeah so I think a good comparison between the two is my wife cuz she's badass you know what I mean as far as you know all that

piece that Piece but she's civilian piece of it and my brother right so my brother you know get sad and my wife sees because you talked about seeing the change seeing the difference so my wife who knows me inside and out you know what I mean just has to look at me and know what's going on her response was is like yeah you brought the monster home you know in her words she said that oh yeah yeah cuz she knew what was going on man you know what I'm saying like she's been in the game

just as long as I have I mean not doing the game but in that world like during our whole deployment time you know it was the kid I mean it was like some movie man like we lived the times like there was six of us living in the same subdivision all of our kids were kind of the same age they were running around the neighborhoods you know I mean we told him that like yeah Daddy's going on a soldier trip you know that's what we Called him you know what I mean and then but then

as they got older you know what I mean and we're going to hospitals and now we're going to Arlington well what happened to Uncle Mikey you know what I mean like oh he got hurt on a soldier trip like oh so now it's you know what I mean so all of our kids like are growing up during that time so everybody had to grow up super fast you know what I mean the kids the wife and then the wives holding it down like I mean single Mother for you know at least half of my children's

life she was a single mom through it you and she's a badass you know I mean we don't hold we're always respectful with our words but we also don't hold hold back you know when she meant it was like meaning like hey you need to do something about that CU now you brought the monster home how did that make you feel when she said that made was like did you feel no well it made me it's like the only thing that I Felt like was like damn I wasn't doing a good as job as pretending

as I thought I was cuz I knew man the switch had occurred you know what I mean I knew something inside had changed me and I knew that for the time being I was still going to continue on this mission that I was on what was it that triggered her to say that to you how I started reacting and not reacting you know what I mean and my distance my in my emotional distance how long it would take for me To recover from a trip you know what I mean as far as to be back

present with the family you know and especially during that time you know just with a regular brain you know not having getting blowned up and you know so many of us have been blown up you know I'm not the only one you know kind of guy but during those same times you know what I mean we're coming back sometimes within 24 hours of doing an OP you know 48 you Know I mean all the time kind of as far as coming back and then uh and then like going to take the kids to school you

know what I mean after like 48 like just killing kid's dad in front of him you know kind of deal so it's like okay and now I'm doing this it was like so trippy uh that's why my hat's off to law enforcement you know they do it daily sometimes but back to me it's like and Then I would be in the kids world and this was one of the things man that was just always so I go back to the humanity aspect of it where I didn't I didn't ever lose my Humanity but it was

kind of like it was being obscured like covered up a bit to enable me to continue on almost as a survival skill because my H my true Humanity would be exposed whenever like I go to my kids Elementary School you know what I mean and there's all these eight n year olds right just Angels you know and uh and then they would start like singing My Country TI of the you know what I mean in that kid voice I would start [ __ ] coming apart and I'm just sitting there because that's what you know

I mean they these that's Humanity right like that is the essence our children you know of of everything that is beautiful and wonderful in life and my own even you know blood in that and it's like but I'm the you know I mean I'm not Healing that you know mean I'm not addressing that side of it because I have to keep on going CU I can't be having that kind of stuff doing what I'm doing that for me at that time it didn't no longer coexist because of the accumulation of all the different things you

know yeah but that's whenever it would also be even though it' be crushing to me it also gave me a little bit of relief of like okay I'm I'm still that part of me Is still me you know I'm not a robot I'm not emotionally unless I'm not a monster you know kind of deal yeah so it was there was a lot going on during those times and I had to process a lot of it and then it and then it all got backed up and um that was what led me to end up getting

out was um let's let's before we do that yeah before we get to you getting out I'd like to I know this is a tough ask but a lot of guys struggle with this Okay and um and so it's something that I like to bring up because of at least half this audience is coming or are GWT vets yeah who've experienced loss and I know we've talked about your experience with American loss but what about what about a brother yeah you experienced a teammate lost yeah yeah have you experienced that uh not on my team

good for you now but on a you know in the troop though you know what I mean and really really good Friends best of friends that weren't I didn't they didn't die with me but I mean I mean like in the moment right then and there mhm but but they have lost them you know how do you deal with that uh how I deal with that is like honoring them yeah and and I think the better way of of demonstrating not so much as cuz then the next question will be how do you honor I

think the next question should Be or the next thing to talk about is how we dishonor them because that's the easier one so I I dishonor I honor the I honor the dead by the life I live now or I dishonor them and how I dishonor them I mean dude like getting pissed drunk and slobbering and crying and like oh my God I miss you so much like is that honoring them like if you you know What I mean me and you are best friends I died you know I mean for you in place of

you or I just died and we're teammates and you did it you know I mean let's say that I did maybe I even saved you or something you know what I mean and now now now that gift that you've been given you're going to just like bro that's the best you can do with like the gift I gave you I'm glad you're saying that yeah bro because it's [ __ ] man And you live life to the fullest like they would want you to live that's our responsibility man anything other than that and I have

failed at it miserably let me tell you that I'm not again I don't I got all the t-shirts keychains I don't judge any other man but I judge what is what is a fact and it is a fact if I am not living my life to the best I mean to the best of my ability because of their sacrifice that shit's on me of being a shitty Dishonoring teammate that is how that is my judgment of me not of you but that is my judgment man because like all that they did for us like I

go back to like when we started this this with man me riding on the shoulders of giants man all of that stuff that all those guys did and I'm giving this gift of doing better there was a time when I was ignorant and I couldn't do better I was just a dumbass you know and uh but now I have an option And I'm and I'm choosing to stay in this [ __ ] self-pity dishonoring thing yeah [ __ ] that that's what I say to that thing and it's totally dishonoring if that's what you choose

to continue to do and I'll be happy to fight over it you know what I mean where it's like because our job man is to honor them tell their stories like talk about them like but it's painful for us like we don't want to like I'll talk about this and that but I don't want to I'm not going to Talk about that that's what we need to talk about man you know I mean that's what we need to celebrate that's what we need you know I mean that's what it's all about but it's so hard

you know what I mean it's super hard to do man but I live my life and fail at it miserably on times to honor the sacrifices they made Man without being a you know uh enthusiastically you know what I mean joyfully I mean I get sad as [ __ ] you know what I mean like Yeah we've all experienced like a lot of I'm I'm actually sad a lot of the times you know what I mean it's like because there's a lot of [ __ ] to be sad about you know but I'm also super

happy you know what I mean I'm also living a good life because I don't you know what I mean like I'm we're all we're going to see them again I mean my belief system is I'm going to see those guys again and they're going to be like hey [ __ ] yeah it's going to be a AR time in the team room it's it's going to be in the team room with the door locked and now we're going to have an A yeah on what Tom did and didn't do I know that man like I

know they're waiting you know and I mean that's just my belief set man so I don't want to I don't want to [ __ ] deal with them man like you know what I'm saying cuz they're going to I don't want to have them hand me my ass yeah I mean They can handle me screwing up at times and you know what I mean in that piece man but I don't want to dishonor them man I want to dishonor my current family it's hard bro man I'll tell you I don't know a lot of guys

that uh came through that don't need any help in fact I don't know any yeah man it's and some well no I mean yes I have seen guys that that have like that are doing real in my opinion they're doing really well guys That I mean they're but they're like Oddities you know what I mean like they're the you know just the freak shows and they're just great humans and they process all right and from my knowing they're doing all right but they're like a super super zero 0.0% you know but yeah but most people

just even just in life in general man you know what I mean like look how hard life is is just regular and now you talk about I always we always joke about it's Like we live we've lived dog lives you know I mean like cuz one deployment is like three years minimum of three years of a regular human being's life yeah I mean most people just lose a significant other a few times in their life yeah like we would do it maybe twice in one deployment you I mean like someone that we truly loved yeah

you I mean so you can't St up that much life experience cuz I don't like even calling it trauma like it's War man Like we go to war war is [ __ ] horrible you know what I mean but that's what it is I mean we just help it helps us categorize it by saying traumatic because it is trauma on the brain and emotions and that kind of stuff but that's what the show is man like there's no war without that stuff and to think that we can get through it or to think that I

can get through it without needing assistance you know man I did it to learn how to shoot the Pistol at 25 M you know what I mean I didn't learn that on my own I had an instructor yeah I didn't do physical therapy on my own when I had shoulder surgery I had a physical therapist you know so now my emotions are out of whack I'm not going to go see my teammate yeah you know what I'm saying I'm going to go see someone or do something in a different in vain but I do as

you can tell I get fired up man when I hear guys Whining about you know loss and suicide and they're not doing a [ __ ] thing about it you know I mean except talking yeah they just just just talking about how awful it is and how we need to do something about it I mean there's a there's a good group of dudes that is you know what I mean but the majority they they'll they'll talk about it and they'll share to where it cost them there's so many it's like when I asked that Question

to you at the beginning how do you get ahead of PTSD what would your advice me you know and I know I get fired up about it too because this isn't 2006 yeah when you got out and nobody was talking about this and nobody knew how to deal with it yeah and you didn't have anybody to talk to because yeah because everybody's still in it you know and um now there's just I think that the that that man I [ __ ] hate saying this but I think that I think that there is a portion

of the veteran community that has really embraced becoming a victim yeah and now there's just not a there's not a valid excuse anymore yeah no just like we had said at the very beginning there's so many even just on this show you know there are so many different avenues that you can go and find what fits for you and there's Example after example after example of of War fighter yeah War Fighters who've been on the show who have done all these different all started things been through things you know there must be at least a

dozen different Avenues of of ways to a a good start you know pick one to get and [ __ ] go with it you know and there's no more there's no there's just no excuse anymore no you know for it's Choice they're choosing that Choosing to be like you said it's not available okay hey figure out happiness is a choice yeah getting better is a choice it is and and and nobody owes you a [ __ ] thing man yeah like I did this for my country Roose a volunteer army yeah volunteer military no I

didn't get drafted yeah now I believe in the workman's comp aspect of it you know what I mean as far as entries that I got like okay on that piece but I mean like hey like like American owe me for what I did like no man I bought like no one owes me anything like that entitlement mentality like hey yeah the US government owes you something because you were government equipment that got damaged and now like okay they need to compensate that piece of of what's damaged not for what's made up but what for what's

actually damaged but then other than that man it's like what are you doing yeah like like Get to work like because it's total victim mentality and that entitlement cuz that I see it all the time and it's and actually an entitlement mentality is a victim mentality like like like you owe me something you know me because of what I what I did you know I mean it's conditional that's a great Point that's a great Point yeah me because I just look at that whole like having not taken responsibility for your own self you Know I

mean and what you have done in your life and what uh you're you know where you're at and where you're going you're being a victim well I had all these trauma is going like okay but there's all these Avenues of seeking help that most of them will be for free if you look hard enough somebody going to pay that [ __ ] if you don't have any money and for real don't have any not just money that you don't want to spend you know because That's in this population is a lot too it's like again

because they think they owe something but I mean that victim mentality you can never get better yeah cuz it cuz if you're my problem I'm screwed cuz I'll have a problem anytime you want me to have one but if I'm the problem now I can do something you know mean because that's complete ownership I'm at Choice like yeah all these things happen To me and yeah that sucked and yeah I struggle greatly for it now like on the TV side and this is what I'm doing about it because if you ask me hey would I

change anything I say hell no you know just that accountability that respon I mean the better word is responsibility of me taking responsibility for myself um and it's hard you know I mean a lot of us aren't trained I wasn't trained to do that I've had all these teachers Throughout throughout my life yeah you know what I mean especially post you know postmilitary you know what I mean it was it was I had a guy on here the other day there are 70 70 over 70 nonprofits designed just to help special ops guys oh yeah

that's that's 70 different avenues that you can go to for free you know mhm I think uh you know I wish they had more for the conventional guys see And that's where my heart always goes to I mean I love my spec op guys you know what I mean that stuff but I mean we got a lot of we got it good you know what I mean who my big concern is the conventional guys and the cops you know I mean the people that that don't have those Avenues you know that's one of the things

I love about about Warriors art is what you're doing what you and your partner had started I'm sorry um His Name Escapes me now but it's for Everybody gosh oh yeah man correct yeah that is absolutely correct that was that was actually one of my Patron questions too is where can conventional guys go and get help because there isn't much for them you know and and and and and I mean you know as tough as those stories those not stories as tough as those experiences were for you to articulate you know with the mass casualty

events those are conventional guys oh my God you know and and all These people are starting these nonprofits and they're all for spec operators sexy spec op guys and it sucks man it [ __ ] sucks because it was it was grunt marines that took the brute oh yeah you know the front of fujia oh yeah and and there's just not much out there for him man yeah that's where my heart I mean my only combat patch that I wear is my 82 patch cuz that's I mean that's how I was raised don't forget where

you come From boy you know like uh yeah man but it's wild you know when kind of switched up a little bit but as hard as all those things were in the military and all of that stuff you know experiencing those events trans transitioning out of the military and dealing with those events was 10 times harder yeah I didn't have a gray hair for one when I was in the military doing all that stuff I get out you know and have to get a job and learn all this other Stuff and all these healing modalities

and cognitive therapy and vestibular therapy I was like [ __ ] it's kicking my ass yeah but it all worked so so what what was it that made you dis yeah to separate from the unit yeah so number one it was uh it was time but again back to me trusting in God like I'm too hard-headed was kind of too screwed up you know what I mean I was leaning more toward what's better for the team than for the family not in a Horrible way but it was leaning that way and I knew it and

couldn't do anything about it and uh my Saving Grace uh was uh my back so I broken my back in 2003 surgery in 2004 re injured my back in 2007 significantly and um so I couldn't wear kit anymore without taking narcotics and because I was sober like I'm not going to go down that road you know what I mean I and so I physically couldn't wear kit without the headaches the the actual physical pain was more Than I could you know tune out it was seeping into my that so so physically I couldn't wear kid

anymore if I couldn't wear kid anymore then I wasn't going to do the job anymore cuz the only reason why I ever wanted to do the job was cuz the kid and um so I'm I mean a bigger man would have probably taken a support job and you know and give back I was not that guy at that time uh I was like I can't do I successfully avoided all it's Almost it's almost humorous you say give back yeah but I was done and and the only when I wrote up the pros and cons for

staying in cuz they the cool thing was is I still I mean I had a good reputation they wanted me to do another year team time which not everybody you know everybody got two years if you didn't screw up not everybody got three I got offered three so that was really cool um but physically I I couldn't do it and When I added it up the positives and negatives and I never cared about being a sar major I never cared about Rank and higher position man I'm I'm I'm that dumbass private you know at heart

I mean the greatest job I ever had in my life was two IC on Thea on the teams you know what I mean you had to that's my style of leadership is like being upfront you know leading from the front it's just what I've always been really good at and those days were gone and um yeah but I Couldn't work kid anymore so I guess it's like man I'm getting out it was super hard though because I'd planned on doing 30 years man I was I was a super lifer I was like I am not

leaving the Army until they they kick me out you know but then all the different things happened and then um once I decided like hey I'm going to get out and it was a family decision you know cuz we weren't doing that great at the time I mean weren't going to get a divorce or Separated or anything but I mean I mean when it's like when you ask guys what did you do in your 30s like all of our 30s my M and my wife like we were in and out of War you know what

I mean the whole time our children in and out of War like i' I didn't bring it I'll was make sure a picture if it's okay with my wife anyway I'll make sure the picture gets up man if you look at the picture of my retirement ceremony you know me and my wife and K kids you Just see how tired they are man they're just I mean they're all in you know what I mean wasn't anything bad love me you know it's good but it's just like you see their eyes and they're just like [

__ ] tired man just CU that that Tempo you know what I mean and then as kids you know if there's anyone that's people like talking about sacrificing man I didn't sacrifice anything I didn't I volunteered for all of that man I volunteered for it I Didn't plan on the injuries some of the injuries that I got the sacrifice means that you know what I mean I have a you know I'm doing something I don't want to do I'm sacrificing this it wasn't I traded my family time for the war Town based on my priorities

and what I thought was right you know what I mean uh you know so they sacrificed cuz they didn't want me to go yeah you know what I mean so all the it's the families that Sacrifice unless a draft kicks up again like okay then I'll buy that you sacrifice because I chose to go to all those different things and do all the different things that I did like for me I have to stay in that mindset or I'll start feeling sorry for myself you know because I have bad days you know I mean go

through a lot of life is difficult like we said at times and I can't handle an ounce of self-pity you know it creeps in enough as it is you know and uh like Talking about sacrifice like hell don't know man yeah yeah so I know I got off of that little tangent but uh but that's what the choices of getting out was that's just how everything had kind of lined up and man it was time right because um when I first came in I told you about the Vietnam Vets so you had the ones that

were helping me out but then you had the other Vietnam vets that would be like oh arm's gone to [ __ ] you know what I mean there a bunch of [ __ ] running you know what I mean they were just like like you know they they hated everybody and everything you know and it's like and the new recruits you know it's like you're going to hate it it's going to be the worst Spirit you know what I mean and I was like Meanwhile we're like this is the best thing ever well they left

we became what we became you know so I started becoming that guy so thank God I realized it myself but you know everybody was [ __ ] Up you're all [ __ ] up that stupid plan we did that in ' 05 we tried that in ' 08 in 9 that sucked this is stupid you're [ __ ] idiot and I was like oh my God man like I'm that guy now I was like and I came to the conclusion man it was that it was just time to go it was like Hey man it

was a good run so I made the decision they ended up Med boarding me you know I mean to starting that process which is a whole another thing But the next kind of thing that came up is I had never missed a deployment you had three major surgeries back surgery leg surgery shoulder surgery in between deployments I never missed a deployment with my team ever you my back surgery was a six-month rehab but I finished up my rehab and went on the next appointment cuz I was just dumb but uh but the team you know

was everything and um and I was wondering was like man how am I going to deal with like they're Getting on the plane and head to Afghanistan I'm not up until that moment anytime they had gotten on the plane and headed anywhere I was with them and so I was like what's it going to be like and uh man into two you know because again solid decision making put a lot of prayer a lot of um discussion with mentors and people that I trusted this is the right thing to do man whether you like it

or not this is the writing on The wall this is what you need to do so pulled the trigger and started that when those guys deployed um you know beginning of 11 uh said prayers for him sent them off and I was okay you know I mean and I was like part of me was like super relieved cuz I was so worried that inside of me was like I should [ __ ] be with him you know what I mean that but it was I had gotten enough man you know um I I I didn't

go get all I wanted but I got all I could stand you know what I mean between physical injuries brain injuries uh what do you think you didn't get that you wanted man I will never not want to kill bad guys and blow [ __ ] up yeah I I to right now I want to do that you know what I'm saying so it's not what I that's that's the way I articulate it too you know it's never it's like Choice it's like money yeah it's never enough yeah man you know what I mean it's

just it's it's it becomes Like a greed yeah man I just it I finally realized uh I realized one day and still had more years in it was like I thought maybe I it would run out of me like I'm going through a phase you like eventually this this will run out I'll kind of get tired of of this you know what I mean and it kept going kept going and I was like okay so I'm not GNA run out of it it's it's just a choice I'm choosing to do this and if I choose

to do it longer I'm choosing to do it Longer but I'm not going to but it's not going to go away I mean any Warrior American warrior that doesn't want to kill bad guys and blow [ __ ] up is not an American warrior there's something other might be something but they're not that yeah and um so yeah so all of that lined up man and it was time to get out and that's when we really found out what was the matter with me you know CU I had one of my one of my best

friends throughout the Whole time I would tell him about everything that was going on like 100% how I was thinking how I was feeling you know I mean he was he was also in recovery you know what I mean he was sober guy he was working for another special Mission Unit in Virginia in in ' 05 he got clipped in the head with a AK at close range so he had been through all the TBI stuff whenever there wasn't really any TBI stuff like' 05 you know What I mean so he was like way ahead

of like he's like bro you [ __ ] up man I'm like really you know CU I'm I'm thinking like I'm kind of keeping it together like it's a little rough but you know it's was like everybody I know is like me you know and they're like yeah man we all screwed up you know and I I was like and he's like hey man look just take the test like he gave me the test to take you know for the TBI piece that are definitive you Know and so what motivated me to uh get help

you know I was getting I number one I didn't care anymore you know you know how on the PTSD scale you never answer on the far right you know what I mean like but now is like um I didn't care cuz I don't my job doesn't depend on I don't care about a secret clearance I'm not going into cont I mean if I was going to stay in the game i' have stayed in the unit you know what I mean uh my war time was over and done over I wasn't Going to contract I wasn't

I mean it's old broke dude had a [ __ ] ton of [ __ ] you know hell of a run you know what I mean like that phase was over um so um so I wasn't going to do any of that stuff so um I was getting I wasn't afraid of losing a clearance you know what I mean so I told him what I was what was going on but the testing so what got me to the testing was is that uh he me I almost [ __ ] blew my own head off uh

with all the support so I Was the a guy that was most set up for Success if you were going to bet on a guy that was going to be able to transition and make it out and be super successful it would have been me if you based it off of the support like okay he's so over you know what I mean doesn't have the chemical dependency to mess with he's got a God in his life he has a support group he has an incredible loving wife he has incredible loving fam brother sister you know

what I mean he's Just got all of this support he's been sober for this amount of time he's processed this much trauma you're like [ __ ] this guy's gonna he's good to go man with all and it was all true and with all that I went through a military decision-making process on why it might be a good idea to put a bullet in my brain cuz my thinking wasn't right so what was going on with me was all this Noise was in my head before any you know any of the uh Rehabilitation that I

had had it was just me off a team now and it was just all this noise and all these emotions and all this anger and all everything going on I just needed to stop and in my life I always had enough tools to deal with me you know whether it was my sponsor whether it was uh talking to a spiritual advisor whether it was prayer whether it was working with others whether it was Helping out you know what I mean it always has tools in the tool belt to turn this off well I'd used every

tool in the tool belt and nothing would turn it off and then I said to myself was like well I know what bullets do to brains you know I mean that'll turn it off so it wasn't like my family would be better off and it wasn't a like oh this is you know it wasn't like a horrible feeling moment or it was an actual decisionmaking Process so that's what I was going down course of action one hey how do the kids find me how does this happen like course of action two like I am like

totally logically going through mdmp on why using this is a good idea then the grace of God amongst that piece like I realized what I was doing I was like holy [ __ ] [ __ ] man like I'm actually thinking that this is an actual course of action you know I mean of doing That and then I went and got help you know then all the but the Catalyst for that was another Warrior Man my best friend my buddy Ryan you know I mean my brother who was always constantly in there on me and

Ryan saying bro you got to get help got to get help got to get help got to get help got to get help cuz we're not going to listen to anybody else you know what I'm saying that's just I mean the amount of arrogance that we have yeah you know What I mean like we are only going to me you know what I mean if you say you've done it like okay you know I mean you're giving okay somebody else I don't care what they're saying it's just how we're wired so it takes us to

do that you know it takes a warrior to get a Warrior's attention and then it takes a warrior to heal a warrior also and um so I took all the tests they're definitive like 8 hours of testing With a clinician you know what I mean a verbal memory puzzles that was an interesting game too man cuz I would get so Furious again because I was having those huge swings and I couldn't figure out how to do a puzzle dude I had so many symptoms like I would get lost driving to and front work I'd have

to put it in a GPS same route for 10 years you know what I mean I would get lost out of all those big mood swings like I I wouldn't know where I was I mean it Was a mess and uh and I knew that I was losing my mind again cuz before I got sober remember I was almost losing my mind and now I knew I was going crazy and uh you can't fix crazy I know that um and so so I was really concerned so I took all those tests got the results back

met with the neuros pych sat down with the neuros pych and um and he's like hey Tom I'm reading results these results are sentative the tests are set up to prove If someone's faking it you know this it's it's bulletproof man you know what I mean on what these results are and he said we don't have your solid IQ as a baseline we just have your you know your general IQ which we know our IQs are usually much higher than that and um So based off that Baseline he's like yeah so cognitively you are operating

50% processing speed cognitively yeah and then 50% % verbal memory um your brain the those parts of Your brains are working at that capacity [ __ ] and he said that and I felt the biggest relief right and that doesn't make sense it does in this and this this is why it makes sense so I like visibly relax right so the doc you know he's looking at me super great man you know and a great doc he's solid man too you know and he looks at me and he's like hey Tom um and he's wondering

if I'm having a Cognitive moment right and he's like I need to know that you understand you know what what I just told you uh because you did not have the reaction that I thought you would have and I was like I was like hey Doc yeah like no cognitively I completely understand you know I have brain damage and that's bad 50% processing speed 50% verbal memory I said the reason why I'm relieved though is you just told me I was injured and that I wasn't crazy you know because I Can work with injury you

know I mean I understand I've really Mount of physical therapy and everything therapy I understand that but crazy you can't fix you know and um so you just told me I wasn't crazy so I was super relieved and then I'm like okay now I have an injury we attack it like all my other injuries you know what's the healing modalities what's all that so once we had all that and then you know the unit you know they did the Best that they could you know I mean again it was full up war was going on

you know was 2010 11 time frame you know I mean they they're full tilt just as they were in ' 05 you know what I mean like that machine is rolling so there wasen a lot of uh things in place now you know as far as to help out or anything like that and um and so whenever it came to help it was basically I needed to get it on my own you know cuz cuz once they found out cuz I told him I was like hey something's wrong with my head and they're like well

you're getting older and maybe this or maybe that and I was like no you need to test maybe we got the test then they seen the results and they're like holy [ __ ] like no jumping no shooting no I mean it was bad you know and uh and you know that brain injury is n is nonlinear you know you know I mean it's bad and then it goes to there and then you know it's all over the place so that know no Nothing and so and then I was like okay now I got to

start getting all the therapies you know so then it was cognitive therapy um so here's like another thing we talked about God and like we talking about this morning like KN I'm that I'm on path right so everything that I'm doing From This Moment forward uh is goes against the culture of where I come from at that time you know what I mean quiet professionals you Don't say nothing that kind of thing so I was dying right even though I'm over like cognitively vly like like man I'm I'm I'm still I'm not dying right but

I'm I'm still not recovering yet yeah so I know how to recover how do you recover you talk about it you know I mean with shrinks whatever you get help go get help you know I mean now I don't have to worry about losing my job or anything like that like I'm Full Tilt getting help so but I'm not getting any support Again I don't blame the unit for that because they were focused on war and that's where they needed to be focused we didn't they didn't have the man to at the time to focus

on folks that were in my situation at the time and um so I'm like [ __ ] it plus I have done it on my own anyway I was super angry like all those mod swings I had to get out of the army early I had all kinds of unprocessed trauma had untreated TBI I was not a joy to be around you know what I mean and so they were okay with me not being around you know and uh not because they didn't like me but they was kind of like bro you're a little you're

a little lot you know so I walk into the TBI Clinic um there at walm and uh I'm like yeah need an appointment got his big beard you know mean [ __ ] crazy guy eyes and uh we look at a picture of like what I looked like in 2009 and uh have that look you know what I mean like the look The War time War fighter Look and um and it's real so I go in there like yeah I need an appointment they're like well you know so I get an appointment so I was

like here's this PTSD thing to fill out right I'm like okay you really want to know now here we go so I write it all down and then um uh turn it into them and I'm like well this ought to be kind of interesting because they're already terrified anyway of us you know our types and Um and now it just turned in basically I'm almost [ __ ] crazy you know what I mean like I got a lot going on so next thing you know these two two ladies come out of the background you know

and like hey M you know um how you doing you know I'm like hey I'm okay like y'all want me to tell the truth like I'm telling the truth you know what I mean but I'm I'm okay I mean I'm not okay but like I'm not going to freak out and like start doing stuff and they're Like okay you know and uh so we went in the back and then we started talking you know and so then I get a cognitive therapist vestibular therapist psychologist go to me me just this whole regimen I end up

on a thre Monon not impatient cuz I'm going at home at night but my whole days man are filled with all of this rehab and it's brutal man total ass whipping I'd go fall asleep in the truck you know in the parking lot before I'd head home just to Get sleep and um but I still man the part of me thinks I'm so wrong for doing what I'm doing cuz I'm like coming from where I came from unitwise like everything is really inhouse you know you know but I'm going to survive you know that's the

decision the choice that I make you know and um and if that's at odds of where I come from and the people who I come from well I don't [ __ ] care uh because I have a new loyalty chain now Now my family actually does come first now my family actually is my team for the first time ever you know what I mean so my job is to be able to support my team which I was in a def it so I had a lot of work to do you know so there was a

lot of guys even at the time CU I was very vocal about what I was going through cuz that's how I survived you know what I mean you talk about it and um 50% of the guys were all about it you know what I mean because a lot of Them were having the same kind of struggles you know what I mean um even if they didn't say it overtly we talked about it in close session you know it made them feel better knowing like yeah bro there's a lot of guys suffering you know so 50%

of them I'm useing rough numbers thought it was cool and then the other 50% would be like yeah he need to shut the [ __ ] up you know but they wouldn't say that to my face yeah you know what I mean because back to the Rules I'm not a hippie you know what I mean like we can fight you know what I mean like and they knew that and so so anyway I had to do again back to I do what I do because that's what I say I'm going to do when did warriors's

Heart come in uh yeah so the thing about all those uh therapies and [ __ ] it it all works man I actually started getting better and started being able to enjoy my life still had a lot of when did your wife Start to notice so she started she started noticing immediately cuz she knows me so well you know what I mean she knew I was still struggling a lot and we talked about different struggles not in detail but that was just our comm's plan that we had together you know what I mean that she

knew I was working on it I communicated that I was you know and uh and so we we started getting better and I started being able to be an actual dad like taking kids of School and being a football coach and stuff but then also started working I wanted to stay in the Tactical realm just cuz I needed to for a while because I I needed to be around that community of people you know and and provide a good product but I knew it wasn't where I wanted to be I just didn't know where I

wanted to be was next uh but in that tactical world and for the cool thing ever you know with my brother and I uh he got out a few years Before I did and um and I was out so we actually started working together like actually together and uh we had a rough start with this company that we worked for we should have knew it went bad um cuz cuz who was running it but it it's okay and uh so anyway we start working together and uh we start doing all the Tactical stuff and uh

we start doing some kind of we call them funing guns but it's these U with civilians you know mixing military stuff not military Tactics or techniques but basic fun of of Marksmanship cqv that kind of stuff so it was a different audience and then different things that i' had learned about at that time was is about healing you know and a and a big piece of that was is that how do Warriors heal you know and uh because uh Warrior to Warrior you know is just uh is relief like um so but it's not healing

the only true healing comes from the community in which the warrior Served right right cuz we assumed the burden we went to war and forever forever changed right and uh so that burden that we share that we have is supposed to be shared with our community for who we went and fought for but it's not because of the Divide you know of the community only 1% serves you know it's not a blame game it's just very big divide but me and my brother started practicing closing that distance um and we started doing that and this

ties into Warriors heart big time is where what we did is that uh we this guy named Edward tick and War in the soul is the name of his book I got all this information this TTP basically of right is how the warrior heals is the warrior gets with the trusted agents in the community uh and tells a story and it transfers some of some of some of that experience onto them right that's the super shortest rough version I could do It what is the program so Warriors heart is a 40 minimum 42-day impatient treatment

program primary diagnosis as chemical dependency so alcohol and drugs uh with secondary uh in the in the alphabet soup you know PTSD uh mild traumatic brain injury moral grief and injury all the other stuff that goes along with the job description but it's primary of that so it's um uh what makes it different what makes Makes Warrior heart different about other different rehabs is because it's the warriors's way like I think I can speak for most veterans like environment matters you know where we heal like we don't heal in hospitals unless I'm getting a surgery

you know I mean if I need a sterile environment and well the I need to be in a hospital if I need to heal mind body and spirit you know and it's not sterile then a sterile environment is not a productive Environment for me and um so it was an old conico o executive Retreat so it's a Resort 543 acre ranch uh that is the opposite of a hospital selling uh the people that can come to it is with the warrior population and that's for those that face life and death on a daily basis as

a profession so we have active duty clients we have uh veterans we have law enforcement we have First Responders you know and anybody that meets that description um you know I Want to jump in and say something you know is the this is one thing I love is this is not a nonprofit yeah you had mentioned that this takes Try Care this takes insurance this takes all kinds of other things regular payment y you know and and the other thing that I love is which you just mentioned but I want to reiterate is this is

for everyone correct this is for special ops This is for this is for conventional this is for First Responders firefighters law enforcement everybody everybody who experiences yeah traumatic events yeah man is welcome absolutely and that's why it sounds cliche it's not but it's like from 911 to a 911 call you know I mean those are our people yeah when your family's in need my family's in need like these are the ones that that we Call and they come and save us like so now they need save I don't like using the word save they need

assistance you know who's helping them out you know and over 3,000 people have been through this treatment program yeah yep over 3,000 how many do you know the success rate yeah and there always percentages so I can give some of them is uh so the success rate we have a 90% success rate in Completion of the course cuz we this is training it's a training course you get cleaned up you get trained up you know I mean you need to learn how to be trained how to live without self-medicating with drug and alcohol and handle

your emotions and behave appropriately you know so it's a training course so it's a we have a 90% completion rate on a 42-day course so the industry standard on a 28 day course is like 50% so we're already winning you Know what I mean in that and and the big reason of that man is is it truly is Warriors healing Warriors like you don't have to talk about that's why we kept it this population only you don't have to talk about me mentorship or leadership you see someone suffering you go and help them you see

the new guy you come and help them so all that naturally occurs you know and so that all happens then um whenever it comes to we're probably at about a 60% rate as far as Folks that leave and stay sober which is normally 20 to 30 wow and that's on a and that's but that's included it always like just in that's including the guys that's one day sober who may not make it to five but that's also including the guy that's 8 years so you know mean so it's a big spread in there so it's

kind of the success rate you know is and some guys relapse a few times before they get it right you know what I mean on that P some of them it's like any hard military Course some people come and make it hey they were meant for it make it straight through they're good to go happily ever after some people get recycled you know what I mean need some retraining then make it through some people just didn't know what they were getting into and they're not ready yet you know so that's if you look at it

as a training course same way as any hard military school that's how it is man so that camaraderie and that peer network is built Immediately that's the first thing that makes it different than anything else cuz they've missed it they've isolated they've gone you know mean they're away from the tribe man so they come back and and so part of the thing is is that uh the first thing that they hear whenever they get out there to us is welcome home you know so uh a lot of people are cliche with that and to some

people it Is but for those who know uh you know it means everything you know uh so that's the thing about Warriors heart is where is uh is where the Lost find their way home is where the broken find their power and it's where they're forgotten or remembered forever you know so when they roll into that environment it's different man you know what I mean it's obviously we have a lot of what I call and I don't say this negatively it's because I'm one of them Of educated consumers like they've tried different rehabs and different

heat heating modality treating modalities so you know I mean that's why I always say I'm going to tell you how great and how awesome and all this kind of stuff but always ask an end user right your reviews you know and all of that and um yeah man it's but it's the peer Network and the difference is is that I mean we're one person man I can't go to this rehab to work on my chem dependency Chemical dependency and this rehab to work on my pts like yeah one of them feeds the other you know

do I drink because of all the pts or because of all the pts I drink like chicken or the egg who gives a [ __ ] like so this is a we got to H man so they get what's totally industry standard so industry standards you get one clinician one time a week oneon-one Warriors hard they get two two times a week one on ones and two uh small case Load groups and that's with a trauma counselor and a licensed chemical dependency counsil these are licensed professionals not not hdden on any folks that are uh

helping you know peer support but these are licensed professionals and obviously they have to be badass to hear our kinds of stories you know what I mean on the regular every day multiple times a day so we've got that piece going on man and because we're healing both of them at the same Time because you have you can't address the trauma without you know one or the other man it's on that ranch man and we do modalities like hey yeah we're we're governed by the State Licensing of doing different rehab 101 stuff man but we

have a metal shop a wood shop a Art Shop we have fishing lakes um we have yoga nature hikes all the different things because we have to have an outlet I don't want to talk about my [ __ ] feelings anymore you know what I mean I Don't want to you know I just need to break man cuz 42 days and when we work them man from 07 in the morning to 20:30 at night they are occupied um earning in their way it's not to get along and get by if you're not going with the

program you'll be a min atively discharged I mean it's but it's our population like we understand those kind of things you know like make me work for it so it so it's meaningful so it means something hold me accountable or I'm G to I can't Stop screwing up you know nobody goes to rehab on an upswing you know what I'm saying it's um how do people find it man the easiest way I think is Warriors heart.com we'll link it in the description yeah but um well Tom wrapping up and man thank you my pleasure you're

welcome thank you for coming out and and um this just amazing what you're doing and uh it's an Honor to have you here and I'm glad we finally met yeah me too man thank you too but um and thank you for being an example you know it's uh you've impacted a lot of people man and uh you're [Music] just thank you and continue to keep doing that I mean it's just it's incredible so it's been my [Music] Honor Today's Show is sponsored by helixsleep.com Sleep especially as you get older is so critical especially that deep

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