Episode 699: Recognizing and Understanding Deceptive Behavior with Sean Grogan and Erik Baum

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get there you don't want to miss this event it is going to be that good if you trust me and you trust street cop trust that you will leave their feeling like you've had an experience of a lifetime [Applause] [Applause] [Music] I'm Sean Grogan I'm the instructor for the street cop training for unmasking hidden facial expressions and body language for law enforcement I'm also the author of the book beware the body Eric good to see you again Sean good to see you as well thank you very much and my name is Eric Baum I'm the

instructor for interview and interrogation for street cop training and I'm not an Author but uh it's a very very good pleasure to be here today and sitting with you Sean uh to talk about an interest for both of us all right and to me I'm excited to be able to talk about this so I know we we agree that I felt like I wanted to really pick your brain and and start our our dialogue here today and you said that was fine so how did you first develop an interest in unmasking facial expressions and body

language When I was doing interviews I felt like something was really missing I've been a bunch of the courses you know there's only so much that you pick up on the street or when you're speaking to someone inside the box and it's just kind of got to throw into the Wolves right there isn't like Hey we're gonna go send you away for for months as soon as you become a detective so I started reading a bunch of psychology books trying to find out why people do what They do and say what they say and one

of the books I've I've read talked about Dr I know what you and I have talked about in the past and these facial expressions that they found out there's these seven universal emotions that show up in the face and I'm like ah it's kind of interesting don't really do [ __ ] for me right I read on a little bit more is today they're they found out that you could use this stuff to assist in detecting deception also called light Bulb one awful man I gotta find this train I couldn't find it I couldn't find

it for law enforcement I found it for civilians and it was very expensive it was over in Europe so I was like you know what let me get the facial action coding system they developed that let them figure out that these seven universal emotions that it's it's for researchers psychological I'm not a psychological researcher we're looking I'm like what am I going to do with this So I started getting some of the books there's only so much you learn in the book right so then I was like you know what let me take the jump

let me let me look into spending the big money going and getting this facial expression training and not only did I get I got licensed to bring the stuff back and once you start opening your eyes to observing body language you just want to keep going I mean pick up more stuff when you're dealing with people then I Went further training got certified in Virginia and things like that I I think that I I think that's that's phenomenal you must have been coming from your Police Department which was what what departments Woodridge yeah I was

at Woodbridge with Dennis you must have been the only one that took a vested interest to this extreme level with this because I've never you know coming from where I came from never Heard about a patrol officer or a detective from a local municipality taking such a a keen interest in that type of training so you might have been the only one yeah that's you know it's funny because you go to classes and oh does your agency send you for this how did you get your agency to pay for like oh no no no my

man I paid myself you know you pay your own well the credit card did you gotta it was expensive training you're looking at 10 000 plus And you're looking at the the time invested just to go to Europe for the trade not even what I did in Virginia and you know you got travel expenses everything else it's very very expensive training you've got people from around the world usually a company would send somebody sure you got the US military percent interrogators over there it was uh yeah and you got to I I'm gonna I can

assume through the training you got to meet some some very well recognized Individuals I would say more on the federal level yeah yeah like you already know what I'm probably thinking about oh you're talking about oh yeah Joe Navarro I was a mentor for his his body language program with civilians around the world so we actually started doing things during covid so I only met him through zooms if they Google him come up with tons a lot yeah if Joe Navarro's probably the most foremost expert on body language in The world if you if you

read a by language book and most likely it was probably Joe Navarro's it's just he's well recognized his program now has been recognized by the American Psychiatric association they get like you know continuing credits and things like that for it I don't know if he was overseeing it or I know he was part of the FBI's behavioral analysis unit right down in Quantico which means some very very big cases nationally came Across his desk where he would help analyze interviews done with suspects and and help form an opinion yeah he he's got one book out

he's got a bunch of books out but one of the books he wrote was it's something that doomsday I don't if you look it up Joe Navarro doomsday you'll find a book and he talks about how they got contacted he was out of Tampa and they needed him to go speak with somebody in a trailer park home who's a chain smoker and they brought up Like this guy's name and it was like the zigzag from cigarette smoke you know these little things that we don't pay attention to get changed he's like that's interesting so I

don't know the guy I don't know who that is and then he asked a couple more times and it kept happening and from that he they ended up oh he's just like oh there's something here and I ended up being like one of the largest breaches of data in like U.S history at the time I mean as well isn't That crazy yeah and and he you know he really is well recognized and I mean sharing with the audience I like to play poker Joe Navarro got himself involved in assisting poker players with what they would

call poker tells I'm not going to say whether it's worked for me or not but it is something that was interesting I I know I uh I I asked you earlier with respect to with that training and we were talking before we were recording do you have any scenarios Or instances while in the performance of your duties where I said something wasn't sitting right you had that gut feeling your hair is on the back of your neck were standing up where you were having an interaction with somebody and you somewhat wish you knew then what

you know now with respect to your your training in this uh this aspect oh yeah there's and there's a few times when you think back and like I wish I started observing by Lane and one Of the major things as an indicator of something might be almost erratic pacing you got someone pacing no particular direction why are we letting it move around and when you're a new officer you might be like oh they're just kind of in this area why are they continuously these erratic steps moving forward backwards to the side are they already thinking

about trying to get to something are they thinking about running and there are a couple times Where there were illegal guns in a car where I had that pacing and you're like wow I should have cuffed them right then and there and there's one like I mentioned before the guy was paced around moving started going towards the car I put the the dog was was in the car I start going towards a guy to cuff him the other officer was like Hey I'm gonna give you one more chance go sit back down of course they

find the gun the guy takes off run and hopping fences I mean He had prison muscle like just straight out of prison I think he was out for a few weeks or something like that and he went right back in but there's another time when Dennis as well Dennis had someone uh it was either a stop or a suspicious vehicle they were off to the side and I'm dealing with this dude again prison muscle my size I was in better shape at the time I was younger right but the guy's moving around moving around and

I'm like he started going Around the car towards the passenger door and I was like yo my man where you going I only you know I was still wet behind the ears I was newer and he's like oh I was just trying to fix something there was like some stuff on the back of the trunk he goes oh I wanted the the computer I was afraid was going to fall over for those of you in other states we don't get a lot of earthquakes in New Jersey I don't think nothing's gonna fall over right but

then Dennis had already ran this guy I didn't know him my job was to watch him and I did but I should have cuffed them right like you're pacing around why didn't I cuff them I could do that for my safety and his way moving around turned out there was a loaded Stone 357 underneath the passenger seat what do you think he was trying to go for you know like I said it was my size but prison muscle it would have been a good fight and if he got to it we've been [ __ ]

bad that Yeah it wouldn't have been an equal fight especially if he got his hands on it and and that's why Sean I I said when we when we first agreed to start to do this that I thought it was it was really good and exciting for me to hear from you about how this can really truly possibly save a police officer's life just by recognizing and understanding Someone's behavior when you're having an interaction with them because you just never know at what point something can go and flip so so to me I was totally

intrigued by just the subject when I first when I first joined street cop and started to to see some of the different classes that was there not that all of the classes aren't phenomenal in their own ways to provide training but for me on a on a more personal level because of What I do you know yours was like one that that sort of stood out and be like wow that's great somebody else that's actually into behavioral analysis you know I've always been a believer that when people would ask me well you know Eric how

you know how do you know if somebody's lying how do you not know and I said I could give you a whole a whole slew of different indicators I go but ultimately ultimately you know I have to trust my Gut instinct too that that's something something here is just not sitting right you know something the person did something the person said maybe a combination of what the person did and said at the same time and then I noticed we said we were going to go back and forth and how my my topic correlates with yours

is as a detective that worked for a prosecutor's office even though I had the opportunity to do narcotics investigations and Street Crimes investigations throughout my career the majority of my career was working in the sex crimes and child abuse unit and also as a polygraph examiner and I got to go to polygraph school we were talking about that and I came back and I was just doing nothing but lie detector tests uh for my from my office and we have in Bergen County many police departments I had many friends in those police departments so I

did many many polygraph examinations but What the general public in law enforcement may not know is is how polygraph training correlates with your training because I had training that had to do fully with understanding human physiology and one of the things that I took an interest in Sean was okay I know that people are going to lie to me yeah I know that they have their Reasons why they're going to lie to me because they have fear of the consequences if the truth comes out and one of the things that people should know is is

what a lie detector test or a polygraph examination is ultimately based upon is the recording of a person's physiological activities that occurred during that exam when they are asked a question that they know they're going to lie to and how I Was trained with this is understanding what is called the fight flight or freeze response and you understanding behavioral language and unmasking facial expressions the understanding is that the body wants to have what's called homeostasis yeah just what we were the easiest term for homeostasis is the body just wants to be at Norm right have

equilibrium within itself but when you add an external factor from the outside that changes that homeostasis That's what causes these physiological activities to present themselves so with your training did you have anything that that was taught to you about why these actions were happening yeah the sympathetic nervous system like you said freeze fight flight I'm actually curious because you bring up the polygraph when you when you're trained because we don't we know it measures physiological response what are the actual responses Like blood pressure so what what what's recording during the lie detector test is the

person's respiratory activity basically their breathing activity we utilize a cardiograph it's the same thing as when you go to the doctor and you get your blood pressure taken it's and what I'm what I'm recording is is what is their blood volume in the in the cardiograph and I'm recording their sweat gland activity it's called galvanic skin response Technical term I put two small steel plates on the person's two fingertips and it records their sweat gland activity and the basis for how this works is this Sean so people have an understanding every question that I ask

on a lie detector test is reviewed with the individual ahead of time they know what I'm going to ask them so if it's a theft case if it's a robbery case if it's an assault case if it's a sexual assault case a murder case I'm going to ask the most simple question that requires nothing more than a yes or no answer did you stab so-and-so when I review that question with the person in advance and I say this is the question I'm going to ask you did you do it yes or no what's your answer

they say no I says okay that's the exact question I'm going to ask you on the test when the test starts In that person's mind if they are what I call fos full of [ __ ] they already know that they are going to lie to me right they know I'm gonna lie to this guy what happens is is when I start to ask that question that person's fight flight or freeze response activates saying I know I'm gonna lie I have a fear internally that my lie is going to show up On the lie detector

test therefore they cannot stop that internal fear that sympathetic nervous system response from occurring inside their body and that's how we actually monitor and record a lie detector test and I'm that's what I'm looking for the responses to the person's life and the way I even explain it to someone that would take in the exam I said here's how I'm going to put this in in perspective for you it doesn't matter I'm a police Officer you're a police officer retired you're driving down the road all of a sudden you see a police car come behind

you how does your body feel and everybody will describe it like oh my heart starts to go a little bit I go even if you're doing nothing wrong you just see the police officer behind you you get that nervous reaction right we'll take it a step further then the police officer pulls to the side and passes you what Happens to your body then your body starts to go back down to that homeostasis level well that's exactly what I look for in a lie detector test if that makes sense um it's what I would consider to

be a phenomenal tool to be utilized in law enforcement it should never ever replace an investigation and as I teach in my class Sean I never once did a single lie detector test where an Individual lied to me was deceptive and the moment that I told them what the results of the lie detector test were they said okay you got me not once really not once so ultimately what I had to do is what I teach interrogation I still had to interrogate the person and there was and the polygraph the the results of the lie

detector test first up they're never admissible in court I can't use the results of the testing Court the only thing I could use is that Admission so learning that behavior as to like why things happen inside the human body I took a real good interest in however I was never able to really utilize it like you know you were or other Patrol officers that may take your training really could use it um because what I was doing was always what would be considered reactive right an investigation a crime happened a suspect is developed Call Eric

yeah all right we have the suspect if any you know let's let's take a shot but for patrol officers I mean explain the benefit how that could be such a benefit because I never had that opportunity yeah with body language we talk about using it to assist in detecting deception and also like we just talked about the erratic pacing and a whole bunch of other movements and detecting aggression you know we talk about interviews I think you're Interviewing everybody I know you said you know for patrol but you show up to the lawn gnome missing

one gnome house you're not going there to go have a conversation hang out with whoever called you're there interviewing okay well what is this what is that and every time you talk to somebody as a cop for not everybody you're not walking in the 7-Eleven interviewing the guy behind the counter but for the most part anyone you're talking to you're interviewing And you're looking for the responses and you're just gauging how people are moving and it's one of those things where how often are we thinking you're interviewing somebody and this happens to all of us

we go okay I'm listening what they said what am I going to ask next but I'm not paying attention to the changes that occur right in front of me right like what an excellent point and let me ask you with the polygraph are you familiar Now with the The Voice analyzers that people voice stress analyzers yeah so when I went to polygraph School uh it was VSA it was referred to voice stress analyzer was just starting to present itself and the world of polygraph was completely against it I mean they just said no oh really

we're not we're not going to recognize it in any way and that is the way it's maintained when I was still doing polygraphs up to the Point of my retirement so I can't even tell you now whether or not they've accepted it a little bit more or not my my feeling is probably no um polygraph examiners and those that have been trained in polygraph you know have their own unique mentality about you know we believe in what we're doing and one of the things that we're taught one of the utmost things that we were taught

is is ethics and to and you know always Maintain uh your ethics and what you're doing with respect to this and I understood the principles of of polygraph saying all right I I get the basic principles of the physiology as to what could happen now people say well can somebody beat the polygraph can't do that you know it is always possible and that is why that is why the results of a polygraph alone cannot be used in the court you know it's not considered an exact science That met that standard that that exists um the

scientific standard to be used like DNA and fingerprints it just it and it probably never will but it's a tool it's and that's the thing it's I've had a bunch of the polygraph examiners from different agencies Secret Service local state and they always say it's only as good as the the interviewer themselves The Examiner themselves right that is absolutely the results and the end results is only as good as the examiner Is um but but what's funny what's funny is as you're as as we're talking about this we used to do when I first started

doing polygraphs we were doing it at the the courthouse courthouse is an older building uh that's been around for a long long time in Hackensack and the prosecutors are office was was located within the the courthouse there and the polygraph room was was down a hole so it was probably a good 25 30 foot walk and as I started to to do more and more of these I used to wait in front of the entrance to the polygraph room and just sort of peek out and watch the person as they were being led down to

the exam and I would watch their body language and you could just tell sometimes a lot of times some were good some were bad and then I'd put them in the room And we had a you know one-way mirror so I could look in but they couldn't see out and I would sit them in the chair and just say I'll be right with you and I'd watch them sit in a chair for just a few seconds and just see what was going on and you know the fidgeting the the thing I mean like I said

I used to say I used to see people put their hands together and go like and you can almost see him saying oh dear God I hope I could [ __ ] get Over on this guy you know just just simple simple things like that but that that's why I took a real good vested interest in in behavioral analysis and something that you said just before and and I actually have a s a slide in my presentation and it says exactly this behavioral analysis can be applied in any situation involving a law enforcement officer and

another person if you listen to what's being said and You observe the person you will hear It and you will see it but we also know that a lot of police officers may not take the time to put an effort into what your what you're teaching I mean I don't know how how you could stress it enough that this is something that could ultimately be integral it's something like I said the be able to use it to detect aggression huge because that's really at the end of the day yeah we want to catch people Live

we have people who admit things we want to go home safe more than anything and and the using it no I say assisting and detecting deception because you know as well as I do there's no a plus b equals c i no no [ __ ] this guy right here goes to Europe thinking oh I'm gonna learn the the systematic pattern of how people lie and I pretty much thought I'm like what the [ __ ] I'm like where's the power where's the Abe you know where's the two plus two equals Four and but it

don't exist and so that's one of the major things there's no like reliable indicators of deception or something okay something's off here red flags and that's how I'm gonna my questions you know are gonna get changed because I noticed something when I brought something up where I need to keep probing a question because when this Behavior occurred but it's one of those things I really went over there going yeah I'm going to learn they've Got some system probably I'm gonna learn when people are lying that that don't [ __ ] exist you know it's a

tool it's a tool like anything else have you well let me ask you this I'm which I'm I'm hopeful and certain that you have with all the years that you've been doing this training have you gotten feedback from officers that said that oh yeah tell me yeah I'm real Curious I get a lot of good feedback about usually proactive stops where they Get called so I end up being a gun there and hey I noticed ablating I noticed this you know I could send videos too that I don't get sent you know what I mean

like it's like hey look this is what I noticed this is why I took this step the dude had a knife there he started bleeding so I'm look over the shoulder and I was like don't even think about it and you know it's one of those things to it's preventative and then I also how many times are you jumping on Things you don't know how it would have turned out you get someone foreshadowing their movement so they started getting up the curb but you already stopped them you interrupted the ooda loop but yeah I get

a lot of good feedback and it's it's usually hey especially with the videos don't mention my name if you want to use this testimonial you know I saw this or hey this video never got sent to you hey watch this video here and some of the videos are like hilarious where you're Like oh yeah like that's it and that's one of those things if you weren't looking you'd miss it you know if you're just looking down at your notepad but if you're actually looking at the person hey do you have this in the car of

that do you have that and then it's like there'll be a change in the behavior wrap you're blinking at one point it'll be like hey do you have drugs in the car or do you have cocaine in the car no you have heroin in the car no do you have Large quantities of money in the car no you know they change that they're going up and down when you've been going left to right and in our culture this is an affirmation this is a negation correct not for every culture like the bulgarians there's other cultures

that do different things but for us why did you and just the changing now if you went like this each time maybe you were just emphasizing the no but you know those things that like I said I get the Scent the things that you know not today IA you know what I mean like I didn't see nothing get rid of it no that that's that's good and and you must just going through seeing videos of law enforcement interactions with with suspects where they they turn bad where you probably have seen indicators that were probably like

oh yeah you know that's that's unfortunate that the officer missed it or didn't but I guess what what it comes down to Sean Is is that no interaction with with somebody should be just taken for granted no if you think about some sometimes when when the law enforcement officer responds uh to take a report on something and you just treated nonchalant and all of a sudden you know you went from zero to to 10 just like that uh and you weren't prepared for it I mean I'm I was always a believer that I'm going to

be prepared for the worst and hope for the best and with with the things that that I was able to do in in my career and you know like I tell everybody when when people um take my class and they they see my my background they're like all right you know what this guy was you know all this guy did was take training and interview and interrogation he was never a real cop well I tell her straight up that's [ __ ] [ __ ] Because I started as a narc I got to do a

lot of good [ __ ] and where Bergen County was located with New York City to worries Patterson the work I was in all those jurisdictions doing a lot of exciting things fights been there car chases been there foot Pursuits been there getting punched in the face been there all right so it wasn't just me sitting in a room with somebody and there were Times where I do when I reflect back early in my career where I wish I had like the type of training that that you're providing because I reflect back and think you

know what you [ __ ] missed it Eric the guy was gonna run you should have been able to prevent that that's and like you said it's one of those things I'll be in classes during breaks you know where you talked I just got I had one guy that was In a shooting it was it was in a shooting like two three days before I won't mention the agency but I knew this was I knew there was a shooting in the agency so I go to the guy but hey how um how's the guy doing

I got shot and he goes oh you know just doing all right he's you know he gave me the rundown he goes I was actually the other officer that was there I go get out he goes dude then he comes up to me and goes you know I saw this behavior that behavior right Before it was kind of I mean the guy just been in shooting a couple days before it was like you know I'm going there like thinking I'd ask it was a larger you know one of the larger cities in the country and

I figured oh I'd ask hey how's how's the guy doing and they end up being one of the cops in the shooting you know and it's one of and it's not just that time it's a whole bunch of we even I mean when you learn how did I I I remember this at that time I remember seeing this I should have done that it should be able to articulate it to yourself right we talked about this before we we have the hairs on the back of our neck stand up but then when you're not able

to articulate to yourself you're like especially today people are afraid because of the lawsuits and everything else and anti-police sediment and we've all got lawsuits going on and still got lawsuits myself just like everybody else Out there and it's like you you don't want to be hesitant that's a problem you know and it's and it's that that that I think you hit a very a very valid point on because I I have a lot of I I still have a great deal of friends that are still active law enforcement I hear that same sentiment about

you know how hard it is to do your job and it's sad and I actually uh I'm not going to get into the whole Thing I actually posted something on our street top uh Facebook site about you know when officers responding to calls and whether they still you know feel the enthusiasm for that I I couldn't believe some of the responses that I was getting back about well you don't know unless you've had IAS and this and that and like on that and I'm like and I spoke to uh to Captain Rizzo about and I

says Tom look at somebody's responsible what what Has happened you know because I have the same I I have the same advice that I give to every friend that's in law enforcement if you don't feel it inside that you could still do it then get out before you get hurt or somebody else gets hurt and and I understand it's tough but but like you just said you can't be afraid to do your job if if you can articulate it the way I think you just said it why you felt The need to maybe take one

step higher to prevent yourself or somebody from from getting hurt then then articulated and and do it you know we we were taught you know both of us are Jersey trained through through academies where we were taught that we're permitted to need force that comes in us with equal force and then one Higher now I've always been a Believer that's saying it's like listen if I see that Force coming at me if I could de-escalate I'm gonna do Everything within my power to de-escalate the person and tell the person look I can see how you're

feeling take a deep breath think before you do something because you won't win in the end and you know we could work together and I would just lower my voice and I would be calm I'd be like please you know I'd even say like please don't don't do something that's going to make this work cycle you could end up Cooperating now and maybe maybe this can all work out in the end and just and all of a sudden you see they might start to de-escalate but if they didn't they didn't you know what can you

do it's funny you said that you must be reading my mind because that's exactly what I was going to bring up about that in the Academy I was taught the same thing you're allowed to meet or go up but I don't I don't know what they're They're going over now you know I don't know I think I I I I think it's still the same I mean I I don't know I mean maybe well I I know there's a lot with de-escalation training that's going on these days um you know talking to some of the

street cop instructors about you have to write reports even if you almost like pull out your weapon for safety I mean it is what it is but but I'm you know I I still believe to this Day and you know whether you know the people that watch this or don't is is that you have to go home you know you have to go home at night to your loved ones and if that means that you have to articulate it the right way why you did what you did then do it because you're coming from a

prosecutor's office I used to I used to say look my job is to do my job the job of the assistant prosecutor is To go to court and show that what I did was justified that was the way I felt yeah I did what I did I articulated it and memorialized it in my report now you go to court and you show that what I did was the right thing to do now if you can't then okay I guess we got a problem a lot of it I think depends on where you're working as well

and yes but I wanted to I wanted to flip back to something that we were talking about where we were trying to Say how what you do and what I do like can correlate so for the for the people that are listening it's great to know that this person is showing all those indicators of lying being fos deception it's it's great to know it but how do you prove it and that's where the what I would say the art of an interrogation comes in Um knowing that somebody is lying but then getting that person to

tell the truth and that's why both are are topics of instruction you know meshed together so much because like I said I've never once never once did a lie detector test what a person was lying and I could tell you Sean I knew they were lying within the first few minutes of just sitting down with the person but ethically I had to go Through the whole thing and guess what do the exam do the whole thing tell the person I'm sorry the results of your lie detector test show that you have not been truthful with

me here today and then Here Comes Eric Baum interrogation 101 you know have you been able to to use what you've learned to to lead it to something down the line in terms of an investigation or do you see how it could be like on field interviews where you where you sense Somebody is not being honest with you and and maybe being able to take it to the next level oh yeah like do you go over that at all like I go over the behaviors I don't go so much into what you do as far

as the interviewing I go over how you would use it when you real realize something's wrong you would change your not change but you would steer your interrogation or interview down that angle excellent I picked up on a red Flag here I've got I brought this up I started seeing behaviors they started grabbing their neck once we're looking for groupings and clusters right and then they do it again when I bring up that same topic well I'm not going to ask a lot more questions about that topic and there's no at the end of the

day I'm not gonna like well the person did the Hokey Pokey so they must be lying to me we look for what verifiable facts sure and confessions I ask you Where were you two o'clock on this day oh I was at work okay you were at work but when you do that you have a rapid nose inhale before you answer all right we start talking some more hey where'd you say you were again at that time I was at where you got grabbed under the neck or some other Behavior maybe the the blink rate goes

up you're like okay well something's going on there so I want to know the verifiable facts what am I going to do Afterwards I'm either going to go myself to where they work or send somebody else say hey do you mind if I look at your uh your your logs of who signed in and that day and they'll be like yeah [ __ ] you pig I'm like no now I'm gonna get I'm gonna get a subpoena I'm on overtime who cares thank you right we win either way so we're looking for those verifiable facts

and as well as you know confessions you're you said with the the polygraph it's not and the polygraph Interests me because as you know in New Jersey they can't compel you as an employer so it's one of those things around the country they're using polygraphs to hire an IA investigations and it always interests me like I've had I've had I've had some people that have taken pre-employment polygraphs for law enforcement jobs and would ask me some advice and and I gave I I ethically I did not disclose anything about like how a lie detector Test

works so my first response would always be is is like just tell the truth if you're gonna lie then don't take the exam just don't one person was was who was taking a lie detector that's a pre-employment got got very I guess got very nervous and worked up um doing I told him I said listen this is what this is what how a polygraph is I go they're going to review the questions they're going to do that They're gonna I go and and the person told me that they came back the results of the of

the polygraph uh showed that they were inconclusive there's three results you get deception indicated it means you're lying no deception indicated you're truthful inconclusive means the examiner couldn't render a full opinion one way or the other and I told the person like listen I go I based on what you're telling me I go I Just think you're you you overthought it and that and that's one of the problems with people and and polygraphers is that there there always is going to be a nervousness when people interact with law enforcement I mean there's always going to

be just it doesn't even have to be a polygraph you know the most people they get nervous when they interact with with law enforcement and that's why as you said it's up to the it would be up to me as the examiner to Understand that nervousness exists but to do everything within my power to make the person less nervous to show that they're being honest um you know which is almost something that you could say is listen I know you know you might be nervous you've never you've never been pulled over before I mean some

people believe it or not hey have never been pulled over by the police before that's crazy but the first time they do They might be nervous as [ __ ] oh yeah so as the as you know as as then and law enforcement officer like you have to be able I guess to gauge yeah like you said and getting pulled over by everyone shaking legislation yeah well why it's not because they're lying to you about where they're coming from when you're asking us because they don't want a ticket they don't want to have the insurance

go up they don't want to pay the 80 they don't and your Authority Anyway they're Nerf but you're looking for that settling down and that's even if they're nervous the whole time it could be their Baseline Behavior it's just what they do but which is which is goes back to something that you said about if I noticed that nervousness I'm you know I might want to ask a couple questions and see what direction you know it goes in if the person's listening I've never been pulled over before you know so I'm sorry I'm scared You

know when they're okay it makes sense in it and I was never a ticket writer if you weren't getting arrested for something you weren't going to tell you they wouldn't take it to that so if I stop somebody and as soon as you go Hey listen I'm not a ticket writer but I got to stop cars you know this and that let me show you why I stopped you you know and then I've already told you you're not going into usually people call them Hey listen you Got you were you were going whatever your tail

lights out this man okay nothing's wrong here go to our see you later you know it's one of those makes sense yeah it wasn't I I know you probably asked it all the time you know I I'm asked it not not as frequently as probably you are uh but when people say Okay Sean what's your favorite uh yeah what's your favorite indicator that the person is full of [ __ ] and that's yeah that's something I do get asked all the Time you have to I like shoulder shrugs I like rapid noses show me a

shoulder shrug it could be both or it could be one but yeah yeah no I'm not talking about the retracted but people also raise their shoulders when they're excited it too right like it was a restraining excitement so it's you know we don't throw our hands up in the air anymore like when our kids like oh we're going to the park we don't go wow we're going to the bar we're going to the bar We're going to play poker no we don't do that we're like oh yeah we're gonna go over there and you're excited

but also there's that uncertainty and they found that in many cultures there's a little debate about whether it's Universal throughout but many cultures around the world you get that shoulder shrug so you get someone that pops to one shoulder if I ask you directly Eric what do you think about Johnny and you go yeah I like Johnny a lot that's interesting Where's the uncertainty do you not understand a question do you not know how to answer do you not really know Johnny do you not know how to tell me you [ __ ] hate Johnny

there's something there and I want to ask more questions that's interesting so shoulder shrug like what's your top three would you say Okay shoulder shrugs wrapping nose inhale and grabbing of the neck but also that's I like the the blink rate change because when you get that blink Rate really going there's there's several reasons that could occur that they found it's you know the average blink rate they say is 16 to 20 times a minute in one study and other ones are you out there counting blinks no you're not counting blinks but I'm going to

look if I if I have that rapid blink off the bat I'm trying to build rapport it comes down and then when people concentrate it'll also slow down and that knows that that that inhalation is That before answering the question before answering the question also hearing something when people don't like will very often do it people like yeah okay you've done it a couple times since we've been talking but that's something that you do it's your Baseline Behavior so I'm not going to take too much of my horrible sinuses yeah see but I take note

of that and I noted you've done it at just inopportune times means nothing it's your Baseline Behavior you have Sinus issues and yes people have sinus issues they have colds they have allergies hey so I noticed that however if I've been talking to you for a while and we hit on a Top Again and it's just yeah after I say something you don't like her before you speak so that that's a phenomenal point because one of the things that one one of the things that I direct my students to understand is is to look for

timing and consistency Of the behavior with relation to the topic at hand meaning if you and I are just sitting down Sean and I'm going to be establishing rapport with you getting your pedigree information just starting and it's a non-threatening dialogue right just starting out but then we start to get into the issue at hand right yep the issue with him and then I start asking you a question and I see you know that that behavior where you know like something Anything yeah you know well I'm like wait a minute all right I wasn't seeing

that while we were talking about something non-threatening to the person but I'm seeing it as we're talking about something that's making the person uncomfortable so that that's a great point that you brought up so when people of people ask me I says okay well one of the things that I first do is when I meet somebody for the first time you know if I know that I'm going To be conducting that interview and I know it's gonna oh it's a suspect I'm doing it for for another department whatever I look for how the person is

sitting because they're seated remember you know when you in law enforcement interactions out in the road a lot of times you know the person is sitting in the car where they are constrained in the car where there's not a whole lot of movement they could really be doing that's visible to You yep um but me and the the setup that I set up the room is I'm gonna be able to see everything so I'm looking you know to see how the person is sitting when I and I said the first thing I do when I

walk in and I meet somebody and I see somebody with their arms folded you know and cross like this I know that this person is uncomfortable because we we were taught that you know that means they're protecting their their innards so to Speak and when I start to talk about a topic that may be uncomfortable to the person and and I just look for those little things like all right we used to have a polygraph chair it was cotton on the armrests okay it was cotton because we had to have the person's arms sitting flat

like this all right the cardiograph the the and the the sweat gland uh plates that were put on so we had there and then when it started to get into it you know I used to see People we the cotton on both the armrests was like almost completely we had to get a new chair why because of the people picking at it picking picking picking picking the lint you know picking the win you know looking down looking away uh just just little things and I'd be like what's your big one what did you like the

most behavior-wise I'll I'll start by saying I I am sort of a neuro-linguistic guy with eyes eye movement oh really yeah But I know it's not conducive for everybody yeah um but when I'm talking to somebody if I just sees you know somebody's eyes you know going up down at left down right that's one of the first things the other thing is is Norm is hand movements leg tapping a little bit but again I look for it in the cluster Sean I don't look for just one Behavior I look for like small clusters so if

I ask a question and I see just like you said and if I see somebody say Um yeah you know or just like this you know maybe sometimes I see them covering their mouth when they're answering because they know they're [ __ ] full of [ __ ] you know little heaven and one of the things that I I like is that I like when people put their hands together remember we talked about that one before you know like not just like but like almost sometimes like like oh Lego prank but over the genital Region

yeah what's your thoughts on that one we're covering the general area think about it when in public for the most part we don't have our hands in our genitals right you might sit at home with your hands down your pants people do that is what it is but we know display rules how we're supposed to act in our culture it's not something we do so that covering up when did that occur why if you watch Alex Rodriguez in the 60 Minutes interview with Katie Couric Highest paid baseball player in the [ __ ] world right

got all this money he goes takes his interview he's sitting there like a little kid with his hands over there and there's a whole lot of other behaviors there and tell they it's a good I actually showed that one in the class that's a that's a pretty good one with some of the I'm gonna I'm gonna have to watch yeah I'm sure I I have that one that's it it's pretty good but that you know that covering yeah I I Like you said there's no one universal indicator and and I preface that by saying listen

just because you may see this Behavior it doesn't it doesn't necessarily mean I go what I what I teach is I go use these indicators as guides to help you form the opinion I go depending on the case whatever the case investigation may be if I have a live victim if I have evidence if I have something that basically shows that the Person is responsible for committing the crime but we still want that person's confession uh for it the behavior is not going to be such a contributing factor to me because I'm already set in

my goal that I don't care what you do I don't give a [ __ ] what you're doing in the chair I'm getting the confession I I want the truth from that person yeah so all the behavior in the world uh doesn't mean [ __ ] if I can't get the person to Ultimately tell me the truth about uh what it is that I'm talking to them about but I also need guide I need I need a direction at times with my interviews saying something is wrong you know I mean I I when we talk

about statement analysis also which I you know I've taken some statement analysis classes I I was talking to one guy at one point it was it was a pretty long pretty long interrogation and the person said well I'm trying to be honest with you and I said so I sat back and the key word being trying what does a truthful person say I'm being honest with you yeah and those are the things if you pick up like what we were shown before like the video like there's those things people miss right the statement up like

you're just not if you're not listening you got to put it all together it's no they're all tools absolutely and someone could just say that but you know it's that's a huge Red flag right curiosity Tickler whatever you want to call it I got more questions I I love I love that and you know when I would when I was a supervisor and a lieutenant I would and I would watch my detectives in in sex crimes doing their interviews and interrogations you know they they never really felt comfortable with me watching because they knew that

I you know I was Gonna if they didn't get it I was always going to be there to come in but I would you know I always say give it give it your best effort I go don't you know if you don't get the confession I go don't beat yourself up I go you will you know you're gonna get it it's gonna happen you know and if I walk in and then like five minutes later the person could they're like well how the [ __ ] did you do that I'm like don't go by me

Don't go by me because I'm gonna I'm gonna scramble your brain in that interrogation room as best as I can that you're gonna just have absolutely no choice but to just tell me the truth I mean that that's the mentality that I try to do it if I'm not certain Sean if I if I'm not sure and the only thing I have to go on is is behavior well I gotta go on the behavior before I make that that decision and that's one Of the things that I teach it's like look um I guess something

that's called baiting questions I don't know if you've ever heard of a baiting question baiting question is like where let's say I'm just a little uncertain and I'd be like so let me ask something is there any reason why all of a sudden you see somebody that would be really good and all of a sudden this is there any reason why someone would say that they saw you And then they'll say hmm why did somebody say they saw me boom thank you for that indicator yeah that's you know any reason why your fingerprints were on

this gun absolutely yeah absolutely I mean those those to me are are great but for the but most Patrol officers are going to have interactions with with people on a daily basis they're not going to be doing it in the context of of the setting that I Do it in in the Box yeah in in the room there you know and if it's an interrogation have an electronically recorded and so on and so forth going through Miranda and everything um so so to me I mean I like I said I stress it that what you

teach could have a real lasting impact on police officers out there you never know what it could lead to I mean it could be it could be the most simplistic Q a and all of a sudden something happens and boom you're finding weapons in the car you're finding Coke in the card heroin whatever it may be right I mean that's all right that's the stories that I hope that you would hear yeah I get that and I get a lot of the ones to detecting aggressionally cellular weapon and we're moving this way sort of bleeding

the body end up being a gun here to one dump the gun underneath the car kept on moving around and the one I Always like are the the preventative hey I ended up snatching them up he did have a knife on his one side there I saw him looking down there started blading you know it's one of because it's you don't know where that would have turned right you just don't and there's a oh there's the you know we can get statistics oh how is this working you're never really gonna know that person that you

jumped on not jumped physically but yeah you know still got a lawsuits going on You get something that stands up starts to stand up on a curb and you're like don't even [ __ ] think about it don't think about it you interrupt their Loop well where was that going to turn to do they have a gun in the car they were trying to get to were they going to run you're gonna have to run across the highway which is you know we're like oh we just gotta run after somebody well you when you're running

you get that tunnel vision you don't you know you end Up running across highways and stuff one guy remember I had to tackle in an off ramp I remember thinking afterwards because it was you know end up a short Chase gets out one guy slips and up I'm tackle him you know my head afterwards because the one guy's wife was actually sitting in the traffic behind us and taking picture of us out there and like she's like say hey what you guys like craziness like you never you know just can't believe nothing more than one

of The cops lives not one of the the suspects but you tackle this guy my head's over the other part of the the double yellow if another car was coming you know and you just think we're just like ah it is what it is you're right you're right right there's there's no other way around it is is that we we as law enforcement you know and it's happened with me and it's happened with guys that I've worked with where our adrenaline does get the best of us yeah Um but I know you had uh something

yeah with video like so Diane Downs for those of you that aren't familiar in the 1980s out in Oregon she took her three children drove them out into the middle of nowhere shot all three of them and shot herself in the arm the youngest kid died the other kid has been uh is paralyzed he's not kid anymore and the older daughter who was she was under 10 at the time she survived and for nine months she ran Around taking television interviews and saying hey some bushy-haired man shot us and it turned out that she actually

shot him and someone had called in and said hey that car that she was in I remember that car I had to drive around that car because it was going so slow I couldn't believe how slow it was going on this County Road but she of course told the cops I went to the hospital as fast as I could but that's not enough probable cause for an arrest so the daughter was Going to see a psychologist and the psychologist was pretty good after nine months was able to get her to say yes my mom and

she the girl actually had to testify against her mom in court at that young age could you imagine and then this piece of [ __ ] she shows up pregnant with another you know pregnant and she was she was trying to kill the kids because the boyfriend she had at the time didn't want children so and you watch her speak we saw the video you Want to play the video or I I yeah I wanted to just I think it's I think it's a good video just to see where she's what what really took me

with her video what stuck stuck out to me was a complete lack of emotion yeah like I didn't see any emotion here did you it just I see the possible duping Delight but that's it there's no it's a complete opposite of what you would expect and like you said it's very structured right we go for it's not uh you know when we Talk stuff we forget things we go back and forth and then what you pointed out with the you want to bring it up again or you can bring it up after we play with

the they which was was pretty interesting yeah I mean that one you know like I said when I hear something I was like oh and you know what Sean I meant that before we even showed it I wanted to I wanted to to ask you um because what what I'm taught and what I teach is I do not bring a person's non-verbal Behavior to their attention that they're doing it why because I want the person to continue yeah if I tell the person listen I could tell you know I know you're not being honest I

know you're not being truthful because you're doing this this and this well what's the person not going to do for the rest of that interview that yeah They're gonna understand and if I tell somebody the same thing with people we talk about eye contact right and I know that you know for a lot of people eye contact is like the biggest thing and like there are some cultures as you know you're very now I'll have you touch on that before we do this about they don't look you in the eye and I'll and I'll tell

people to like all right listen Maybe the person's not looking you in the eye That could be an indicator but I've seen detectives who be like well [ __ ] look me in the eye and you know what you know what the pressure's gonna do the whole time now yeah the death's there don't so I just don't bring those indicators to their attention now out on the road or with what you teach I mean maybe it's different maybe it could be beneficial depends on what it is when it comes to detecting deception I agree with

you 100 why would you tell that person what They're doing and get them to stop however when it comes to aggression detection if someone's blade in their body or you know starting the digit firm digital flexion yo why why are you clenching your fist but man you know what I mean well get in there ooda Loop same thing like I said someone's trying to get up could you explain because I never I've never heard that term before aggression detection yeah there's different indicators that people have Very very often before they attack someone before they attack

such as look over the shoulder we also get that when when people take off on us right but it's usually a couple let me look but people very often look either down or away or over the shoulder prior to attack if you're looking at me and you're talking to me and I Look Away what are you thinking another person I've been looking at me they're not threat right now but I've already locked In on you number one number two the person that's doing it doesn't want you to see it coming so they turn away and

then about I'm coming at you same thing with a pants lift when do we see the pant slip before people run but before we fight too if you work in an agency where you you get called in for you know we got 30 people fighting in the club and back in the day when we used to actually go and do what had to be done instead of just wait until it all fit in Whatever they do now but you go there you watch cops will lift their their pants up now sometimes people lift their pants

when they're falling but Duty belts they'll lift the duty belt so everybody's lifting their Duty belts up getting ready to go the duty Bill ain't going nowhere it's got It's got the keepers on there it ain't falling down but people do this all the time before they fight I show videos in class you got two guys squaring up both Bladen Both lifting the pants at the same time because we do this to get ready to let me let me ask something this woman is is we she's out there yeah do you have a video of

somebody doing that behavior before running or fighting the lifting of the uh this is just what you were talking about oh yeah yeah I tell you the truth I'd rather see that this this is great and we could tell the people her name is Susan downs And you could look that up you're thinking Susan Smith Susan Smith yeah Diane Downs and and I mentioned Susan Smith is that's the woman I talk about in my class who uh drowned her two children um and I also talk a little bit about uh JonBenet Ramsey case too you

know the most famous what I would say is some of the most famous cases uh uh in the last 30 plus years that's very interesting Sean for the for the police Officers that are out there to see that because I never I never again the behavior that I refer to with what I'm doing could be on a field interview looking for those indicators of of what the person is doing with the non-verbal behavior um but also I have to take it into the next step of sitting in the room with somebody yeah when we're conducting

a formal interview with a possible suspect Of a crime and and observing those physical indicators of deception but but being out on the road you know when you only have a split second to really uh sometimes pick up on this you don't have a whole lot of time there's there's a recent one that came out I think when in the last month or so and several indicators the looking over the shoulder the guy was on both of them were on the driver's side he's standing kind of the driver doors open I don't know if you've

Seen it the guy looks over his shoulder slight pants lift in the front and they end up teeing off on the cop it's one of those things if you're looking like so you don't have a whole lot of time but sometimes you you that second is all you need to be able to oh put my notepad away you know what I mean like why am I standing there going oh tell me more Mr Johnson tell me more Mr Smith like no like put let me put this down I just saw a look over the shoulder

like this what Are you looking over like that are you thinking about attacking me you know like and like I said I'm not going to call that out but I would call out other things hey why are you clenching your fists is there any behavior that you were able to see while approaching a driver's side or or while approaching a car whether it's from the driver's side I know now it's passenger side approach um but being 90 blinded approaching from The rear was there anything that you would see you look for the shoulders drop it

because you know back in the day they were using that furtive movements yes you know what I'm talking about and it's like a little dude what's a further movement report a few times oh my God that was so funny you just brought back a memory like what is the further movement it's one of those Reaching the yeah we that's what we used to articulate but what exactly did you see did you see that shoulder drop down did you see a look over the shoulder especially the looking back to see if I'm coming if I'm not

especially if I'm not usually I would jump out of the car especially narcotics I wouldn't start calling things out I wanted on that car first so when I'm moving towards it what are you looking for it's not like you've been sitting there for five minutes why Are you looking back to see where I'm come from you should because if I get stopped and I was a cop I'm still not gonna be like oh where is this guy oh no I'm gonna sit there okay your camera and everybody's different right but you see that look back

hmm what's that about what are they nervous for that's really to that level because everybody like we talked about before you get that nervousness prior to you're getting stopped [ __ ] I don't want To get stuff especially out of state you know what I mean that that's so funny that you brought back that further movement because that's exactly uh what we uh utilized in memorializing in our reports that all right well why did you look in the passenger area Eric because I saw the subject reach into that area you know I saw the subject

now yeah that's something you see video after video of video and I can Think back times where I saw it and I didn't even realize it at the time the leaning over at the waist right with the hands down in this region here people just make it up very often so why would a person especially when you get a steering wheel here leaning over like this you watch video after video or video with shootings or someone takes off and they're leaning over like this why are you leaning there's not a lot of room here and

the passenger as Well same thing real real interesting fact because as as you know as you know the majority the the majority of the law enforcement Patrol when they are going to be doing an interview you know if it's a road stop I mean it's you're getting out of your car and you're approaching now responding to responding to a call is different when you're having that interaction with somebody But if you're if you're going to get somebody out of their car if you you know these days you can get somebody asking to step out of

the car for whatever their reasons I mean you have to be aware of what you were witnessing because that's why I said when a cop just takes it for granted don't man just just don't I mean we I think we both you know you have videos showing where the cop was approaching thinking everything was just fine and Dandy and just like that I mean the whole idea is is we want to go home safe I want to see every police officer go home safe and I mean that and that you said you know approaching situation

this cop here this is in Massachusetts at a police headquarters it appears this guy that's going to meet a cop over here right and it looks for the most part like he's getting food delivered so if you go out into your lobby your headquarters are You thinking that someone's gonna attack you the second you said no good thing oh I'm going to pick up my food I'm going to meet somebody for this and you have this other guy moving around over here and you're going to see he's mowing around as he's approaching he doesn't look

over the shoulder and ends up attacking the cop with a knife in that top right corner cup comes out oh my God Yeah he just stabbed him yeah and you saw about four or five steps prior that look over the shoulder oh you see that like I said it could be closing the distance but also you got someone that's right in front of someone to look over the shoulder or down and lifting the pants and you see this constantly you know this is just a couple of the indicators that I mean Sean that's it's I

mean and he was and he was approaching Pretty rapidly why why are you walking towards me like that when I'm getting food you know if you pay attention and I'm not saying anything about the cop this happens I mean that's how could he know yeah you you go out into the lobby you're like oh my food's here I haven't eaten you know I'm working 12 hour shift I've been in this interview I got this I got that and the last thing you're thinking is there's gonna be some [ __ ] Maniac in there that's going

to Want to stab wow now this is a street fight you watch both guys at one point the one guy's gonna lift his pants up and then the other guy will do the same and you see like I said you'll see this constantly prior to fights and we do the same thing when we think we're gonna fight I've got him showed up to domestics where you hear yelling and then you get the other copy look over they're coming up the same leg Like lifting the pants up getting ready in case you gotta fight one two

yeah right and now you're like okay here we go getting ready again again and then they go and the little guy asks for it and the little guy's gonna get it oh yeah we're getting these are things you'll see if you if you watch videos after videos after videos You'll see these behaviors occur all the time now Every time someone loses their pants are they going to be attacking you or running no right it'd be like you can't be like oh this depends I'm gonna go punch someone in the face because guess what pants fall

people adjust themselves what suggestions do you have for police out there that are unable to attend your class in the near future what what like material suggestions reading viewing is there anything that you suggest I don't Want to sell my own book here but my book has all that information yeah my book has all that information I've been told it's written pretty pretty well where you can picture like people that have come to my class and the name of the book but where the body beware the body and it's also on audio if you're beware

the body is it being is it being sold by like Barnes and Noble it's on Amazon it's on Amazon it's on Amazon and it's you can get on Audible I think Another Amazon type of thing and there's another I can't remember the third place it's on but yeah you can you go on Amazon you get whatever you need I buy everything why not I know but I see you're covering all the basics of everything's in of what we were really talking about here and in terms of like YouTube videos I mean I guess the only

thing I could say is is look type in the words behavioral analysis and you'll come up with some some videos If you go on police activity there's videos after videos after videos just you just observe get used to observing and seeing what you're seeing you know what do you um are you able to pull up uh email on here yeah I got YouTube as well so you want to send me an email and see if that comes up so I'm just going to say real quick that regardless of your opinion my opinion is I've always

been a a fan Of Michael Jackson as a musical artist um but and there's a butt I say I found this video where Michael Jackson was accused of being involved in possible child molestation and he's never been Char uh convicted he's never been I don't believe I think he was almost charged but I'm not really sure but ultimately he was never convicted and so on and so forth and I leave it at that and I am not saying that Michael Jackson is guilty of child Molestation I saw this video it something that I show briefly

in my class but I want to get your opinion about this also Sean and just see what you think about this with what you've seen for his family on his behalf filed a litigation I lost it against you yes to your knowledge Mr Jackson were you ever accused of having sexually molested Grandma's we'll answer that [Music] thank you do you know a person I'm sure you have I mean we remember before this year yeah some thoughts on that yeah they're smiling what are you smiling before is it possible duping Delight what is it explain that

threw me to like someone's lying to you they think they're getting over on you and they take pleasure in that but it could also be what's known as narcissistically Someone has a narcissistic personality and they get that attention and it could be negative attention and they still like it and also could be a nervous smile people do we know that people smile and laugh and they're nervous but hey huge red flag again accused of hey you're getting asked if you ever molested a kid like what is that then we get that sinking down into the

the chair you went over we got the covering of the face as well which is pretty interesting And we take note of them like that's it's interesting why did this occur and then he gets asked go ahead oh you can test about the what was it Macaulay called me learning and we've got that blocking possible blocking Behavior with the eyes closed for over a second what explained that blocking Behavior so that's a good one too psychological blocking behaviors they found that children born blind when they hear something they don't like will either Close their eyes

rub their eyes or hold their hands over their eyes so when people hear something they don't like sometimes this will occur why could someone be uncomfortable that they have to close it now everyone blinks but close that eyes for a full second or more that's not something that occurs very often I like that combo I like that did you notice at the very beginning can you go back a little bit because it's something that that you said that I I Thought was real interesting go ahead play it one more time that that Jordan Chandler or

his family on his behalf filed the litigation and lawsuit against you yes the blink he was had Dead's dead stare a dead stare no blanks during the entire duration of the question which wasn't a long question but there was no blinking and then he asks the question and we see again the just the slightest slouch down Uncomfortableness in the seat but what do you what about the blinking Sean I mean is there any is there any significance to that rapid blinking that just happened there blink raids can be increased for several reasons as we age

it starts to increase reason being is our eyes start to dry out on top of that stress pain discomfort and sickness and tired and you're tired as well your eyes will drought so all those things can can cause it so if you get a baseline Behavior sometimes people just be blinking because it's it's what they you know all those things but he might even ask a question that was stressful that he didn't he didn't like it could also be in pain I don't know why I'd be in pain maybe he's gotta make a poop and

he's sitting there well who knows but you know it's it's one of those things when it occurs what was asked and if we get on a topic and it starts to boom boom boom boom oh that's pretty Interesting what point then does it stop again and we'll look for what starts and when it stops and it's one of those things you're looking at so much you know as well as I do you're interviewing somebody you're focused you're tired after you're interviewing somebody because you're focused in on what's being said what you're going to ask and

then I'm paying to say oh blink rates going on and we can watch this video another five times we'll probably pick Up another five things but the thing is you want to pick up as much as possible Right like it's about paying attention or blink rate and I see your shoulder shrug I'm like okay well guess what I'm gonna miss what your feet were doing and if I look at your foot I might miss what your hands are doing you know it's so when you're with your training that that that you teach and I will

wrap it up you know I know we've been here for a while You're you're basically teaching head to toe yeah do you have any anything with respect to when you're when you're talking to an individual because this I'm curious about too face to face with stance and feet their stance are yours theirs there I mean the cop is good yeah we're gonna stand the way they stand well that's what I go over blading and different types of blading for aggression detection how does that work so there's a slightly that's something That when you all of

a sudden if I'm standing and I know we may not catch this on video if I'm standing here with with you and we're just having a nice General you're you're talking to me on the sus on the subject you know you're talking to me and I'm here and then you know all of a sudden I just I you know maybe I I I I just start to like to turn you know and and leaned a little forward or backwards or you know looking like my is there a Is there anything that that's indicative of what

could happen well if I come up on you and you're bladed I'm gonna start moving around you to see if you're continue doing the dose you deal with me right oh okay continuously bleeding so there's two a couple three different types of blades that go over one is the the slight blade it's what we do in the interview stance right one foot back one shoulder leg then there's a prominent blade I'm like this now I'm giving you My shoulder is there a chance I got a weapon I might gain proxemic distance at the same time

get ready to draw something on top of that you got an enhanced blade one hand inside a pocket could be a jacket pocket but on the other hand's illustrating speech moving around talking most people if they talk with their hands would be both hands now people have limitations disabilities maybe they're holding on to their keys they lose all the time maybe it's just The web they do however if I move around you and you continue to do that and speak like this and I have videos out there you'll see this happens very often sometimes even

with a prominent approach to One Cop in NYPD got stabbed in a bottle like I think it was like a year ago I don't know if you remember that one same thing you come up one hand's doing this or it could be pacifying the person too it could be rubbing the face why you see that I'm gonna treat that With the highest respect I'm not going to be that's interesting just the hairs on the back of my neck no I might want to take cover give commands because what's the first thing we do take your

hand out of your pocket just gonna ask you that when you see when when you see something that that's raising that that that minor indicators that could go from minor to Major what do you do in response to that besides of what you're besides your Physical changing of your behavior of protecting yourself what do you what kind of verbal I mean do you give verbal commands no at that point you're not going to be let me see hey turn around put your hands on top of your head and that's something I'm not a defensive tactics

instructor sure so and that's something you don't see every day think of all the people you approached so there's a very good chance there's a weapon there so I am Not going to treat it like because that's something we don't see every day and if you come across it have a plan am I gonna take cover and give commands if I tell them to take hey am I going to grab their arm and say listen I want you to slowly remove well that might not be the right answer either you know oh I'm going to

wait till backup shows up well maybe backup shows up and then they get freaked out and they pull the weapon out at that point I think the best is to Take up but that's also I'm not your defensive tactics instructor but it's something I have a plan because when you don't have a plan that's where you know and every everybody has a plan Things Fall Apart but at least hey all right I want to find cover now I want to get behind this engine block of the cards here I'm gonna go back in the house

I'm gonna give commands around the corner I'm gonna cut the pie hey turn around put your hands on top of your head and Maybe it doesn't turn out well if you do that but if you stand there and if you've higher the probability of things turning out worse and what's the worst that's going to happen if they are holding onto the keys you'll look like an idiot who cares at least you go home safe that's all right all right at the end of the day I I I'm telling you I I think that there is

there is so much value in what what you're teaching for police officers you know if I was if I Was still on the job I mean I would be going to take your class in in a heartbeat uh without a doubt because I feel that it's something that could save my life I mean I really you know if something could save you life that's why we do training is to become as law enforcement you take training to become better and proficient in something with respect to your career the ultimate goal is is to go home

at night I mean you know I'm still a little older than you But I I always go back and I you know when I have communications with somebody that's that's law enforcement you know through street cop or stuff that I always I always leave him with a saying that from from an old show called Hill Street Blues and you know listen please always be safe please always be safe I mean that that's the most important thing um and if that means that that day the bad guy got away from you [ __ ] happens you

know that's that's the way it goes but if you but if you're safe that's the most important thing so I could say that you know how highly I recommend for any law enforcement officer to go to your class you know my class again it's it's in a little bit of a different category um not to not to minimize the importance of it because I I do teach law enforcement Patrol officers really Control Officers how to interview Victims how to interview Witnesses how to interview suspects how to develop suspects how to how to actually possibly get

roadsided missions what your interview could lead to with respect to if you do the interview the right way and you pick up on some indicators that it may lead to the next step of what could happen and then ultimately if you're ever tasked with sitting down and talking to a possible suspect Is having the tools to be able to get that person to tell you the truth legally respectfully and the right way and be able to go to court and back it up you know so I'm a believer that do it right or don't do

it at all and if it doesn't work out that's the nature of our business sometimes it doesn't always work out to our favor yeah and it's and I said you were kind of minimizing your Cuts but if that's something it interviews Everyone's interviewing all the time and I understand you're going specifically for in the box but everybody at some point very likely to be in that position number one number two everybody you talk to everybody told you you're interviewing that's and there's skills you're you're not taught those in the academy you're you're just not no

I just they had so many things they got to put forward that you're just not oh it's not taught him yeah I agree with you Sean And you know like I said one of the one of the the things that I really stress is is that you as a patrol officer and a law enforcement officer you are usually the first to respond to to any call regardless of what it may be that requires a police response and with that you're tasked with having to talk to somebody yeah and doing it right and doing it proper

and being able to extract the right information Is integral and yes that is you know that's why I teach you know I have to tell people listen interview and interrogation is not just for Detectives you as a patrol officer you could end up making cases that could lead to significant significant outcomes and investigations just by developing the information by you being out there and doing it so I I you know again I do minimize it a little bit because let me let me put it this way reality check on My behalf I know it's not

the most exciting Topic in the world in law enforcement I understand that that's not the most exciting guys want to do listen we both know remember the terms and you know for any the any or our female wolfishes listening I'll just say there was a term called when we all started this job we were full of pee and vinegar and that's what police officers want they I understand I loved it too man I loved That training of being able to go out and do that [ __ ] but guess what at some point in your

careers you might be tasked we're talking to somebody uh and if you don't know how to do it the right way but I still think it's a part of it and I think that's what you know interdiction you're interviewing people I think it's it's a huge part of it that's why I I understand you're using The word exciting but I mean and I get it we found my interdiction classes we first got on but the same in drug classes but this is part of it if you don't want to talk to people you ain't getting

the drugs you have a you know you're coming in I remember you first get on you're like how do I talk to people you don't know because you're like when I talk to kid uh when I was a kid talking to Cops where I grew up they came and they talked to you like you Were a piece of [ __ ] oh my God yes and you're just like is that what they're supposed to do you know and you're like this is weird like am I not supposed like you get on you're like well that's

not my personality so like how am I going to talk to people because you I mean you were talking like complete any running we have a cops where I grew up was was pretty rough the cops were and they were known for that and you dealt with them and you're like man and yeah It was what it was you know I'm like dancing around what I'm saying but like your eye stick was not not far yeah yeah and you were just like you know if they showed up to a house party when you were like

17 drinking beers you ran out of that house because you knew they they'd be throwing kids around there they would love it and then they would take all your videos yeah they would they call them hostages I was told they'd say oh we got the Hajj literally if you were Drinking in the woods you would come back later you'd run and then come back there you took the third one it was gone not that I was drinking underage right oh that's that's that's great right but no I uh it is that's why I said but

it was when we decided that we were going to do this how uh these two topics definitely uh meshed together and intermingled together with respect to using one and using the other and like you could use I Mean what you're teaching to law enforcement and take that to the next step to bring it to where you might be doing a sit-down interview with somebody yeah right just by what you've seen here that wait a minute something is not right you know what I remember grogan's class with this let me see if I could take it

a step further and I'm a firm believer and I teach you this is that you don't know unless you ask Don't be afraid to make inquiries yeah and sometimes those inquiries may lead to that behavior that you haven't been seeing and you'll see if you don't ask uh you know an uncomfortable question you may not get an uncomfortable response yeah and that's one of the things I I think it was uh Rob Ferrero he brings up in I've seen a similar class where he's like you got to be able to ask those questions you know

for energy because You're asking uncomfortable questions so he's like someone says because they're going to try to put you off yeah I'm coming from uh we're traveling for a funeral oh who died you know like oh okay a lot of people will be like oh I don't want to get into your personal but that's you know people do that to try to keep oh uh my aunt oh how old was she you know things like that where you're like yeah people could be uncomfortable especially you're newer on the job like Well I don't want to

ask that but this is the things you're going to ask to get that response if they're making things up they're like oh and then you ask the next person that's in the car hey how old was where you guys going whose funeral and they're like oh it's my grandmother's and wait you guys are wait how did that happen you know what I mean I hope that the use of of body cams um doesn't deter law enforcement from doing Their job I I really hope it doesn't I've heard you know a lot of times when people

like well now you know you and and I and I give the same answers as like look I I get it but do your job the right way as to the best of your abilities and and you know hopefully you won't ever have to concern yourself with it that that you were questioned about what you did had you know believe in yourself I mean really believe in yourself and that You're doing it right and if if you're not backed up by your Administration I I don't have a I don't have an answer for you on

on how to deal with that other than you took this job to do what you're sworn to do yeah do it I mean we could do you said Sean we agreed that when we we sat down people would probably shut it off halfway through and it would probably be bored but for you and I this is never boring yep that's Good thanks for doing this it's great no my police thank you for doing it I mean I had a great time and and we could do this uh again multiple times and I'm just going to

tell everybody his class is phenomenal it could save your life I mean I that's I'm I'm not saying that lightly Sean you know it your class could could save your life if somebody picks up on something like that you know my class can help you it may not save your life but you could Gain a lot of information from it you know the same way but you know your classes to to me is is just extremely important all right so you keep minimizing your class it's there's things that people can pick about can save their

life as well oh I appreciate it it was a pleasure to sit here and talk with you about this my brother always always thank you Frankie [Music] guys if you're in an area where you're Trying to get to our classes but we're not close to you fret not we actually have on-demand training at streetcar.com you can take that course online right now and then you could attend that training in the future at no additional cost you can redeem your voucher so you get two for the price of one we don't want to deny you the

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