SEO Masterclass with Kyle Roof | Google's Ranking Secrets, SEO Experiments & AI Predictions | TBP05

The decisions that give you the best chance for Success do you believe in 8020 rule I want to make sure that people get a feeling out of it I was getting goosebumps you know and if you do that that makes you less susceptible do you agree that you are an analytical person I regularly go through thought experiments oneu my you when you hear you like this is in those situations that my competitors believe Them cuz then there's usually a space to move right into believe industry I'm telling you guys it did not seem very appealing

to me why they do not have this links are dead people really try to out clever Google missed the foundational things content is dead I'm way better at SEO than I ever was at website building hello everyone welcome to my channel and today I have a very special guest who is who doesn't know that he's Very important in my life because of his content he's been creating online it has been very impactful in my life and thank you so much for that well thank you for that that's very kind of you and I'm just saying

that actually it means a lot and what you've done you've uh you've been always a very happy uh person in the industry you've been recognized and I've always see you smiling even the picture we have it's the the smile tells everything so your your personality is Something which is very important for the industry I would say oh thank you that's very kind that's very kind thank you moving forward enough of that we can always talk about that I'm not going [Laughter] to okay so can you tell uh in in a short like everybody knows about

you already who doesn't should leave Su industry I'm telling you guys yes can you can you Just tell in a very quick brief about yourself who's Kyle rof um yeah so I've been an SEO for the last 12 years uh I've founded an agency high voltage SEO and out of that I started a uh SAS tool an onpage SEO tool called page optimizer pro and then I also co-founded a platform for Education called IMG courses can you tell us about uh the page optimizer pro it's been in hype since a long time I've been uh

seeing people talk about in in the Conference as well can you tell me something about that I think it's been the most favorite project I've ever worked on but um the concept is you put your page in that you want to to rank we look at the the pages that Google likes they make suggestions on how you can do a page that's going to be a little bit better so you can outrank them and really the idea is that you know SEO is a game of probability correct and you want to make the the decisions

that give You the best chance for success and that's kind of the concept behind the tools like if you make these changes to your page if they do these things it it gives you uh what we believe is the best chance for Success um I I heard your talk yesterday and um from the title I would be very honest it did not seem very much appealing to me but when I actually it was a very different thing for an SEO but when I saw it because it was Kyle rof I had to see it you

know it Was a very different perspective Al together you know and and and I I must agree that uh the respect for you after the talk is is is on another level now yeah but but but how did you frame that kind of mindset uh can you just tell me a little bit about the talk yesterday yeah I've been to a million conferences I think you have as well correct um no one ever remembers what the speakers say but they remember how they feel yes you know and Then that's as a speaker that's something that

I I'm very cognizant of and uh want to make sure that people get a feeling out of it at the same time I think you can help people with framework now how you think about things like and and and so the talk all my talks are kind of geared towards how to think about things maybe a little bit differently yes how to expand what how how how you're approaching uh the the The the problems that you're trying to find solutions to and so that's kind of where the talk really was going was like thinking about

these things is good you know and uh and that's what I was trying to put together with with the talk at yes yes um you know when you were delivering the talk and uh it's it's pretty much very simple things but you know the impact the way it was spoken the public speaking uh that's a skill you I think you youve Gained with the with the the the couple of years you've been doing it right um like when you were delivering the speech uh I I was getting goosebumps you know these are simple things but

you know the way it was said that was making a lot of sense and I think I would urge the audience to actually go into your content and actually listen to that perspective it's not always a you know you need to deliver everything technical but this Perspective uh of keeping things things very simple I think and and and you know even you're a believer of keeping your content and stuff very simple right you've done so many experiments which we just coming up and but at the same time you're doing experiments at the same time you

we've been talking about a lot of uh permutation and combinations but keeping the things very simple do you agree yeah I mean people really try to out clever Google or try to out clever Their uh competitors and when they do that they often miss the foundational things that have to be done and you're much better off just doing the foundational things and I think people maybe the reason they don't do them is because they feel like they're too simple it can't be that obvious right you it can't be that easy but it often is you

know and so you must do those simple things and if you do the simple things well um you can be very Successful without having to have any like super secrets in SEO you know you and to be honest the super secrets don't really exist yeah and I think 80% of the things work when it's simple right 100% that's right that's exactly right um coming coming to follow question on this do you believe in 8020 rule like if you yeah I mean that's just pretty much life isn't it yeah is is that that's that's pretty much

anything you want to to talk about that pretty much applies I heard Your past uh not this one but a past talk of your hours and in which you were mentioning about something like this not exactly this but your it was related to the SEO but you you were telling that you have to keep yeah if you do things simple if it's 80% of that is is quite simple the content and stuff if you keep your things very clean in the first phase of the page of the content and and it makes sense right great

now let's step back a little can you uh tell me That uh from law school to SEO these are quite very different things like you started as a trial attorney you know and then how did it turned up into an SEO yeah as a trial attorney I was in court every day and I I kind of got to the point where I was looking at the other lawyers that are there it's the same lawyers every day the just the clients Chang right yes and I was looking at this group of like 55 to like 65

year old dudes and and I was like I was Looking at my crystal ball right like this is my future I was like I don't want to be these guys you I mean they they've been beaten down like it it's a hard job it's Soul crushing and I was like you know this is not just I can't see myself doing this for the next you know 40 years and um that was so I didn't have SEO at the time but I kind of I knew I needed to make a move I need to get out

of that so I took a year off it's really what I was that's what I was Thinking I was like this is a year off I'm going to go to Asia I'm going to travel and um that year off turned into the rest of my life just never just never went back wow how did you first hear about SEO like what's what's an SEO what is search engine optimization how did that came to the picture I I got into things uh doing like website building okay and and kind of like basically like subcontracting where I

would get the Le and then I had A team that would that would build and then through that I I learned about SEO because you know you get the payment for the site and that's kind of it and I was like well I'd like some recurring Revenue yeah after that and and it then I heard about SEO as a thing I like oh we can offer that as like a signed service and it goes on exactly you paid forever which what I was thinking um but um it really turns out that I I was I'm

way better at SEO than I ever was at Website building I think RAC yeah and it was like and I liked it more and um and you know I really enjoyed like the problem solving aspects of it and and what you get into and and and I it it I excelled quickly like I had some really good results quickly yeah um and so that kind of then took me away from the website building and into just being an SEO correct you've been doing SEO experiments right and you're quite Famous for that as well and U

so do do you agree that you were an analytical person yeah in life you do uh I think I've trained myself to be an an analytical person and I think you can do that you know that think that's something you can you can work on and become uh I don't know in my day-to-day if I'm as analytical as I would like but it's something that you can definitely learn and and apply to problem solving to to business problem solving to Anything you want to do for someone maybe like me who is I I have a

personality like if I'm working I am working day and night if I'm not working I'm just not working the question is that it has actually led me to sometimes be very non analytical at the time I'm you know in that not that in that zone what I've just heard that you can learn to be analytical person that's very new thing actually for me any any two three steps you can tell me like how can we Actually achieve that for the audience uh maybe anything I'm not an educator but um well you know something that I

talked about yesterday yes was that um I regularly go through thought experiments yes like the ship of of thesias um and I rarely go through um logical fallacies correct and and in working through those types of problems I think you can become and because the answer you come to in the thought experiment isn't the point yes the point is the process of getting To that answer it's the framework you put together and I think if you work through those types of things then you can definitely develop a lot of good analytical thinking skills do you

think like in my agency if I want to do like this kind of I want to set them and and process of R&D Sops helps a lot you have to have Sops um you you don't want to reinvent the wheel correct and you're going to end up wasting a lot of money uh with your employees Reinventing the Wheel every time if you don't have a tight sop for them to follow you want that there so like this is what you need to do every time you don't want them to try to they have to figure

it out every time correct that's just wasted time and money so you want those Sops if you ever want to sell your agency you have to have those Sops oh okay that's if you don't want if you don't want to sell then fine if you want to waste money fine but um if somebody's going to buy Your agency they want to make sure that um they can step in and you don't have to be there yeah it it yeah keep going you keep going at the same quality level that uh that you're providing and you

have to have Sops for that wow wow okay can you tell something about the infamous story Gish bit story can you tell something about that yeah sure well um that was just a n SEO competition to um to rank a page for term and uh I decided so 27 professionals entered That and I decided when I was going to do it I was like hey let's try to make a point about something that it's not about good content it is about math in order to prove that then I built an entire site in Laura myum

and the page that was ranking and ultimately got to number one in Google very big thing in India um it was all L myum but I did the math on the the target term its variations its contextual terms and I just copied and pasted those into the The Laura msum something that a lot of people don't know though is that uh that wasn't the first time I've done that I did it before when we were just kind of running some experiments Okay and like I think it was uh I was just like hey I need

quick content I'll just see some Laur myum and then I was playing with some stuff on on you know uh different paid uh places on the page that rank right okay and I got a page to rank like number four in uh Canada for a very Specific term for a Canadian product and I was like huh I like wait a minute and then and then so that kind of inspired me or gave me the idea then to do it for this competition to do it all more to prove the point that it's not good you

need good content to convert yeah to get people to do what you want them to do but when it comes to ranking it it is satisfying the MTH yeah yeah there was a uh thing in India which happened which I can relate with this that um I don't Know if I should say this on the podcast maybe we've to cut it but I can tell you uh like you know our our prime minister so when we search which is the uh the worst prime minister in India it was coming up so it was a lot

of group of people who did that kind of you know SEO near the elections and and it works you know this is happening yeah it it does work right yeah absolutely absolutely okay okay now let's jump on to the lessons from your failures okay uh so we You you've heard we've heard the story from your uh past talks and your content that your website's got theindex I think your 20 of your test websites called Index right so uh can you can you some tell me something about that about it that how did you actually adapt

from this what was the SE landscape at that point what was great is I didn't have to adapt anything because when Google did that when they and it was it was punitive they were they're taking down The sites it validated everything I was saying you know like if I was talking nonsense or if I got lucky they would have rolled their eyes and moved on right but instead I showed how the algorithm works and how you can also learn how the algorithm works and what they did to take down those test sites was was trying

to punish me for it uh and so I changed nothing and I I I doubled down and I I went more into it like okay we figured it out they don't Like this because it works correct and then I was like okay let's just this is what we need to do so I I didn't adapt anything I just kept going and and very good very good answer yeah and um yeah I know I know we're here today and it still works you know still it still works yes yes yes you you famously said Google's algorithm

is just an algorithm and it all comes down to math can you can you elaborate this I mean that Statement is the statement you know like when it comes to rank uh it is about satisfying what Google's algorithm needs to see and that's it and that's the number of times you're using certain terms in certain places and that that's all that it is uh as I said before you need good copy to convert but good copy in and of itself uh will not help you rank if you're missing the terms then you know but I

do have something that I have a a complaint about with people is Where they say like there's SEO copy and good copy to be honest with you what I found is that good copy is really close to the SEO copy and it just needs a little tweaks correct I found like if you have this copy and it doesn't meet the math and you didn't write good copy yes and you're trying to make some excuse about what you did you good copy should be SEO copy yes you know and then from there there's like small SEO

tweaks correct corre uh but yeah at the end of The day you do have to s satisfy the algorithm I was just talking a little I think it's it's a very stupid example I'm going to take but maybe I could make you relate that like you know it's like a very good food like it it has a perfect salt it has perfect spice your your plate has perfect everything you know you just don't do one one thing and you know just you if you like salt you just cannot put only salt in your plate right

has to be perfect balance and I Think that's how it works in SE right now it should be perfect balance everything should be yeah and and the is the math is perfect if it is if it is delicious that mean it's good SEO yeah if you know why I mean with you yeah I think that's correct yeah okay okay can you tell me about the patent for SEO testing not many people can say that they hold patents for testing can you tell me anything about that yeah uh ultimately I think I just patented the Scientific

method I don't think I did anything crazy but it's um it's a it's the method that I use for test to see if something is or is not a ranking factor and Google that's putting up test Pages uh getting them an index uh tweaking one thing on the page that that's really what it is it's just did you did you get any problem while the patterns were happening like any any any backslash on this no honestly it was done initially just for marketing W to be like patent Pending and then we got the patent and

then it came through yeah so it was more of a a marketing Ploy that turned turned out to work better than we anticipated wow very nice yeah you you need to be very smart with the things you know it's it's it's not only about good SEO I think and I've seen with with all the entrepreneurs and speakers especially and even you that it's not just SEO it's actually about good strategy I think strategy and strategic Planning and you know uh picking up the opportunity I think good good Su have been doing this and that is

why I think we're should together yeah right because that is why I want to podcast with you because this is how you think it's not just SEO right it's a lot of other things I think I think you're right yeah yeah okay can you tell me about the 400 SEO tests you've been doing and are the results still like surprise you sometimes uh I'm An old bunny so there's not a lot that surprises me anymore but um most of the tests that I run all the tests that I run really are to answer a question

that have yeah usually about a client that's done something or hey we need to know this or that so they're not really like revolutionary but it's just like it helps us make a better decision about something so it's not like oh we figure out some super secret it's just like what's the best approach now how should We should we do this or that is is is the vast majority of the tests that I run so people like what's the craziest thing and like I don't really have too much that's crazy cuz it's practical you we

we just we just need to know if we need to put like something here or there on a page and we and we and we ran itest to feel to see what what produces a better result but isn't it like it becomes a little expensive running such experiments and don't you think that It's it's a lot of cost involved in this you know n i mean you run a test it's under 100 bucks and you know if you got a client that's paying you even $500 like I mean you can you can take that up

with $500 budget to make a better decision so yeah I mean it's not it's not the most because you just need a domain yeah and You' got your WordPress template and then you're throwing up pages from there that's not that's not expensive just followup question to this Uh and and the talk I heard and it really I really wanted to ask you this actually personally I'm glad it came up you said that the future is is about uh actually low ticket clients like the near the near-term future yeah yeah yeah yeah it would be about

$500,000 client and that's what I've been doing since a very long time I just correct me now now we were thinking that we will move toward very high ticket we will maybe take clients with 5,000 6,000 $110,000 But not work with like maybe lower ticket clients but after this trying to do the transitions actually the convergence has gone down for me because uh now I've seen that the market trend is going towards what you just said and now I could relate after the talk that are we doing are we doing wrong that we going to

with the high ticket segment and now the market is you know more focused on the low ticket segment can you can you guide me right on this Something I might think about uh if you want to go from let's say you're doing $1,000 clients and you want $5,000 clients right um there's a longer lead time to get that $5,000 C so if you want to make that shift you really have to think you're going to have a year of flat revenue or so where you lose you know five 1,000 and in that time you replace

them with one 5,000 exactly where I am today this is the and so you're going to be flat for About a year as you make that transition so that's totally normal so if you're making that transition and that's where you want to go and if you have a mature agency which I think you have yes it's okay to transition out of when I was talking about the opportunity for and what I think for 2025 is that there going to be a lot of uh uh small businesses that need SEO Services their budgets are not going

to be very big and there there are not enough service Providers for them this is an opportunity for people that haven't done any of this to move in yes if you're at the point though where like Hey we're mature and we're moving on and you're making that transition that's totally fine but just you're don't stress okay you know like that's just how it works okay where you lose the you know four or five you replace with one the thing is when you do that when you lose those 4 five your profit margin goes up because

When you're servicing one client it's much more valuable yes that's what we were your profit margin goes up significantly exactly so what you're going to have is is a pretty flat year in Revenue but your profit margin is going to go up and then you're going to be poised for the next year once you've kind of made that transition then all of your clients are you know 3,000 5,000 8,000 whatever and then and you're comfortable in the um the lead time to Land those clients and and and what you've created and your profit margin will

definitely go up yes because the conversions initially you you know we were we are into local businesses and stuff we mostly do that so yes we were like facing that you know the flat you exactly bang on right you nailed it I can I can that's normal that's that that's that's expected it's okay yeah and the second thing is that yes uh now the processes are to be built for those Kinds of clients so yes the the the transition is happening yeah okay I I'll take more suggestions from you after yes thank you so much

and moving forward yeah okay all right time for a sponsor break this episode is proudly sponsored by in digital the marketing agency that are your host K Singh Grover co-founder at Kings digital we specialize into scaling businesses optimizing growth strategies and turning your ideas into brands that people can't stop talking About you might be thinking self-promotion in your own podcast well that's quite bold that's because that's exactly what we do for our client poll strategies that bring results so if you're a business owner or an agency wants to level up your marketing your processes whether

it's SEO ads social media Performance Marketing we're building a killer brand presence for you if you want us to audit your website or your ads campaign just fill up the form Below we'll get back to you trust me if we're good enough to sponsor ourself we're probably good enough to help you crush your goals all right that's enough of us now now let's get back to the show I'll I'll start with page optimizer pro how did that idea come to you we were doing it in the agency we were doing it by hand and we

figured out uh a way to get pages to rank better but we were doing it by hand and that's not scalable correct so then we figure out a way to Do it you know with a with a a bot and scrapers and stuff like that and then I was just casually showing this to some SEO friends like would you like this would you pay for this and that's a key when you're trying to get into SAS is you have to solve a problem and I think it's solving a problem that you have is the best

thing because if it's your problem people like you probably have that problem but then you need to do some Market you know research and just Have to ask people like would you pay to solve this problem all right right you sometimes you be like yeah I mean I have that problem but it's not worth 50 bucks or it's not worth like it's like then then that's okay yes you know but what we found was like hey do you have this problem yes I have this problem would you pay this amount for and like yeah I

would and that then like was like okay I think we've got something that we need to develop and and so that's how that All kind of go so we solved the problem that we had within the agency we got it to work we got to work consistently and successfully and and then asked other people like what do you think yeah and then that's the that was trans but that took about a year from like that from you know us putting it together and solving it then turning it into something that was actually online to then

some market research so then just giving away for free yes I mean that was All about a year yes before we really then started charging and turn it into the tool that it is so uh is it is it a tool for the beginners or would you see this tool for more professional or more Pros so we've got a two versions of the tool essentially the the the version the main version is this what we call the the pro version and that's meant for anybody okay it's kind of like having a high level SEO looking

over your shoulder we also though and I think one Of the few tools that does this is that we give all the data yes and so that's on the custom side so if you're an SEO and you know your situation you can customize it so you can get the data as you want to see it but we also just show all the data this confuses people so sometimes when they're like oh I've got this this content brief side you know but are there am I missing secrets you know thing and it's like you're not you're

really not yes you know like if You're doing that you're you're doing effective SEO we provide all that data because there are some people that really need needed it yes and and they know what they're doing correct you know and that's fun yeah they know they're very specific specific situation and we can give them that data but what happens is for like especially like novice seos or like small business people that aren't seos is they feel like they're missing out and it's like you're not Here here it is this will be great but they're like

but there's all this other data over here do I and it's like no you really don't you're fine that's kind of a a and I always want to give that data but it kind of runs us into this problem where like we then have people that it's hard like for new people or non seos to use yes very well now I want to talk about IMG it's it's it's also one of my favorite to be very honest I it's it's say you know I was always thinking that There should be something like you know Netflix

for SEO and it is actually Netflix for SEO I was very uncomfortable with that tagline by the way I had to fight the marketing team on that I like look if it gets sued you're paying you're paying it it's you know I was thinking that you know uh this there was nothing like this you're the first mover I think in this there might be we we tried we tried to make it accessible content essentially that it was easy to Access content and um and in a way when you think about like all like what on

Netflix you know there are all those movie options kind of depending on what you want or what you need there's a category for you to go in and get something useful that was kind of where we're at so like I think the tagline is correct I was a little uncomfortable with it no but it's you know it's it's actually how you make people understand it is actually what You know it's it's very easy okay it's in in just tagline it's easily marketed actually yes that's okay at the end Money Matters you know that's fine but

yeah it has actually helped me a lot um I have done um I've done that real estate course because I'm into real estate Darby ham I've done her course I've done Julian Goldie's course from it I have seen your past all the because I think you've also partnered with the conferences right yeah so we Try to bring some conference talks in as well which is pretty cool that that was a I was like very I was like wow so that's actually a very good thing and I I always look at the coming soon and I

this is coming this is coming yeah so that that's very good so how is it how how the synergies work with the creators uh does that like creators get a maybe if you want to comfortably explain oh yeah yeah yeah so we tell the creators you're going to make tens of dollars but Um for the creators almost everybody that we get they're on the way up okay so they've done something very successful in a in a niche right correct and then they want to grow their brand correct they don't really have a platform to grow

their their bread and we all we provide that for them so they get exposure to our entire audience yes so they're often people that are on the way up so the nice thing about that is that they're sharing things that they're Doing right now yes it's usually very practical it's very like this is real because they are actually doing it and they just don't have a big name yet and this allows them so a lot of people they'll do their first course with us and then they'll do their second course on their own you so

like we do it like with a Spotify model where they get paid by how many people are watching and admittedly it's not as much as you would get if you did your own course and and Got exposure but a lot of the people though if they tried to launch their own course now they would get zero sales because nobody knows who who they are so we can help kind of put them on the map get them exposure yes you know get them out there and then they can move on from us so it's actually kind

of fun that we get people on the way up yeah who are working hard correct and they're actually doing the SEO and then then that's what we can provide to uh to the People that subscribe to IMG very good do you wish to also add people like apart from SEO maybe experts maybe from advertisement maybe we have a little bit of that I mean we've got some some Google ad stuff some Facebook ad stuff like that that is there it is I don't know how advanced it on that side of things I don't think I've

watched those courses so I maybe I should watch but but but you know I'll tell you my suggestion maybe maybe you obviously Your marketing or you know backend te would be more inclined towards the other things but I I would I would highly suggest that you can do it because I I've seen that demand because obviously for them also this it's nothing like that you know rather than dripping off and you know Finding courses with in in a very unlegit way this is the best way to do it actually to be very honest we can

find courses but those those ways are very unle amate and I always urge People that a Creator's effort is all gone to zero if you know people actually do Pirus right so this this is a very very legitimate way the way you've done it and I really appreciate you because the creators are really it's very valuable for the creators I would say and the part you explained that it's a platform where you start Y where you actually were doing something and then you you know you the audience is quite big now I've seen even I'm

a subscriber So yes I would say that but yeah you can I I would I would really want to see more stuff ads marketing because we are I'll talk to the team about it I'll talk to the team we we very my partner was like yeah why they do not have this I want to see ad courses and there's only one I tell okay okay you know more L than there that's great yeah we did that one too sounds good yeah but yeah it's lovely it's very good and the community community part is also good

I think That's very good I've been quite active on that yeah that's great thank you yeah yeah okay so I I now I want to talk about your philosophy more okay so you you talk about content first ranking right one of your courses emphasize ranking without building so your content is your sole purpose right but can you tell elaborate that and I think the there there's a lot of opportunity where you can beat your competitors through better research and Through better planning and through better organization and uh I like to emphasize that because if you

do that if you take that type of approach you're you're going to do a lot of less SEO you're going to rank with with minimal SEO and if you do do that that makes you less susceptible to Google updates okay and so um for super hard things it can't take you all the way you will need backlinks you will need other things but there's a lot that you can do uh without That to get a lot of success and the more of that that you do and the less of external stuff you do or those

other signals you or heavier SEO that you do the less chance Google you'll have will take anything away from you so I like to take that as a first layer approach a foundational approach okay and it might it it probably can't get you all the way there but it can get you a long way a long way yes a real long way and um it's just going to help you get better sites That are evergreen that are less susceptible as updates that have less volatility um that can go for the long term and so that's

why I like that as kind of a foundational approach after that and that approach is also complimentary to anything like if you know something that works you can just put that on top of this yes but do this type of research first find these of pages find this type of approach and then um add in anything else you like After that correct very well okay I want to debug one Su myth you when you hear you like this is any anything you want to you know it's just anything is dead F fill in the blank

this is dead links are dead uh content is dead SEO is dead like you always you always hear these kind of things like this thing is dead they're not yeah nothing's dead nothing is dead like that's the thing like it is just not and anytime anybody make that makes that kind of statement It's like that person's an idiot I mean that person is trying to get clicks is what is what they're doing not Idiot they're actually pretty smart they're trying to get clicks but say say blah blah is dead yeah it's it's just not true

but I honestly hope in those situations that my competitors believe them because then there's usually a space to move right into you know like that's that's the big I hope my anytime you hear like is dead you know that's a Problem all right you may believe it I would yeah very good very good okay now coming to the AI part what do you think about the AI wave and what's your take on content and ai ai is a tool okay and and it's a tool that you should use it can and can speed up the

process for a lot of things but AI can't do SEO yes you know that's just it and um so you want to use it as a tool that it is but you need to understand the framework of the why of what you're doing because Then you're just using that tool to accomplish that nend it can't do the su4 you can't drive your SEO forward so use it as a tool take advantage of it but um so maybe use it more on the productivity side of things getting things done faster maybe helping you in creating uh

maybe outlines and maybe like uh helping your maybe with in your Sops in your process even in your content but in a way that it it makes your process fast that's right but yes human and us we are Required that's right right that's right very good okay and what do you think about the AI search engines like Char perplexity do you think that we we we should do something special to rank in them because that's also market now and it's growing I think did you hear that thud over there yeah that was the sound of

how of them nobody using them like how flat they fell when they launched nobody's using them right now like it's like 0.00001% of all search the only people they're using are nerds like you and me yeah and so we become and we think like oh because we like it or we use it everybody must be using it um my dad is uh 66 years old his wife is 67 I called them all the time and asked like hey what do you think of those new features in Google and they're like what new features in Google

like hey are you guys using any like you know AI search like you know chat gbd search Or like like should we we don't even know what this is and I'm like okay we're fine exactly so I always want to see like kind of what the general public and then they're regular users of Google right this is what they do like experiment yeah so like so I'm not overly stressed okay there will be changes for or things we need to adjust about our approach for sure I don't want to make light of that but I'm

not on the hype train just yet for all of that Stuff until until Janice my dad's wife starts starts using it then I'll then I'll think about like all right maybe maybe all right Janice is there it's a I have like a Janice standard Janice is there then okay I'll do something about it she's famous now very good very good okay your predictions on SEO 2030 what would it be 2030 yeah um that's a great question you know uh as long as there is an algorithm that's making the choices there will be SEO and I

don't see that going away in five years so there will be an algorithm there might be things we need to adjust there might be there going to be different tools there different the llms we have now will probably not be the llms we have in 5 years anyway so when people are like oh we need to adjust for this this and this this LM probably going to die in two years because something bigger and better is going to come along right and you have to redo or Refocus whatever so as long as there's an algorithm

were good I don't see that going away in the next not five years not even 15 years or 20 years you know and by then we're retired and Rich anyway so it's nothing you have to worry about right maybe more Ann is coming okay now let's do fun rap rapid fire okay fire away fire away yeah yeah what's the most ridiculous SEO advice you've ever heard I don't know there's a Lot of like Ivory Tower SEO that you just know that somebody just hadn't done it you know and so I don't know the most ridiculous

though I'm sorry I don't have a great answer on that but um yeah I don't knowu is dead yeah there you go yeah exactly as is dead oh yeah exactly whatever is dead you need to change what you're doing you need you need to get out of it because yeah yeah that is ridiculous advice you're right we just talk talk about it yeah true okay one Experiment you've always wanted to try but you haven't yet well one thing that um uh uh we struggle with on testing is um user metrics like um getting the user

metric because I think they require a concurrent Factor like something else has to be in play before Google will measure it and it's really hard to do that in a test environment oh yes because we need we need trigger that first thing first and and and it's hard to trigger that first thing in order to Test the US metrics because I think there's something there but it's really hard to do in a test of we can't we can't figure it out yet so if we could figure it out that'd be great uh we're trying okay

but um that that'd be something that I would like to do but just can't right now I'll talk about this I think I'll have some ideas yeah okay if you could only use one Su tool for the rest of your life what would it be Wow but and now that we actually have our keyword research part of things page optimizer pro is pretty complete especially when we talking about like doing content only or like that portion of it yes it can take care of pretty much all that for you now so I'll roll with that

one when would I get the merchandise for yeah we'll send you you want it I I'll send you something yeah yeah yeah yeah I'll send you a t-shirt thank you you might have a coffee mug or Something too yes obviously of course of course what's your favorite nonu hobby that keeps you you're creativity FL uh well you know like in the the talk I talked about I work through logical fallacies it I'm a nerd so I find them fun but it's also very useful because you you realize the arguments that people make are usually pretty

terrible and when you hear the bad that bad argument then you know you need more proof that that that Helps me a lot to to stay pretty sharp and that makes you more analytical absolutely absolutely very well very well a historical figure you'd love to spend time with and why uh my favorite scientist of all time is is is is Haley he's from the 1700s Haley's Comet is named after him um he brilliant man did a lot but um I think his special skill was that um other scientists liked him other scientists like he was

smart enough that they would they were cool to Talk with but also like he could he had a personality that worked and so like a lot of brilant people like like Newton for example was a terrible person right nobody nobody liked it Newton would talk to Haley he gave him the time of the day and Haley is actually the one that uh caused like the principia of Mathematica which is one of The Originators of to be made because he made that happen he actually got the money for it to be so that newon could work

on it he got the Money to print it but he also encour Newton to do it and also Newton like the things that we know from Newton Haley was like went to like hey buddy we need some help and then underrated yes but so his like his emotional quality uh allowed him to bring scientists together to get stuff done and on top of that he was brilliant himself you know he did a lot of great things but I think one of his most amazing skills of being super smart and actually being emotional wow And bringing

people together and that really pushed science forward just for being a cool dude you know just for being a nice for just for people that might want to hang out with him and that caused science to go forward right and Mathematics to go forward but but that exactly what you like your nature is very much similar in SEO in today's world maybe that's why I want to meet him right very uh I now I can very much you gone in depth and uh I would say That you're very much similar oh cheers thank you thank

you very much it's true it's true very well very well I I'll read more about him I know about the H's Comet of everybody knows but yes not more than that I will definitely read about it more very well okay your favorite animal and give three reasons why I don't know if I have three reasons but my favorite animal is a giraffe and and and the main reason is is that it shouldn't be you know a giraffe has no Purpose other than just being a giraffe and they're amazing I mean they just they're there for

some reason doing giraffe things I I I think they're amazing they're absolutely amazing was the strangest Niche you ever optimized aite for uh I mean we have gotten into spicy niches um one thing was kind of funny was there's like a you know like you know monster.com like the a jobs platform yes there's a jobs platform for Spicy stuff oh and they needed an a it and they're a huge website so you've got the actors on one side you've got the films on the other side and they connect uh with each other it was pretty

funny and we did a pretty comprehensive audit for it and W it was fun yeah I mean great though is up uh you know the majority of the people that uh are on my staff are are female and so before we took the job I was like hey guys we got we got a bit here is everybody pretty Chill with this and if anybody has a problem we won't take it but everybody was fine with it it wasn't it wasn't terrible uh as he goes but that was kind of funny and you know sometimes it

becomes a little but that's also fun yeah yeah it was good yeah very good it was just a side AED we were we weren't we weren't doing their okay your go-to guilty pleasure when you taking a break from work um so in England on like BBC or some of their Other channels they do um crime drama I love them all but the ones I love the most though are not like the serious ones they're the ones where like the you know the detective is funny or weird or quirky see that psychic psycho there's a yeah

that's it that's exactly what like Death in Paradise or um monk in the US like the uh it's like death uh murder is hilarious like I I I love those show they're they're terrible no one should watch them except everyone Should watch them and I love wow I think I've got over very similar T here I'll send you my list okay okay no watching detective stuff is very much fun and and it turns out to be it's it and and when it's funny it's you never get bored exactly know I you know when I'm working

I'll just put something like that on on a TV and just let it go and then I'll just work with that and instead of like listening to music I'm like watching yeah because passive I'm Watching like a detective show where the the detective is an idiot and you should watch psych yeah I love psych I watch all the episodes it's it's amazing watch twice I love it too very good what's the most unexpected place you found inspiration for an SEO strategy uh I don't think I have an answer to this one I'm not maybe an

inspirational place you overall inspirational place like a strategy though I don't know but overall inspirational yeah yeah I don't think I Have one for that I'm sorry be Chang yeah yeah yeah Chang ma that's right yeah yeah that's right very good I'm helping you with the answers okay if you were doing SEO what career do you think you would be into I love the magic of movies and the magic of TV and I've always kind of thought like H if I could go back and be like you know 19 and broke and I could work

24 hours a day maybe I would go and try to break into that industry ah you know Like that and you would do good I could do it now but like if I was you know young and hustling and where you can like do that and to kind of try to get into production on the production side of things I think that would be pretty cool you should I I would say you should still do it okay okay describe your ideal day in changai you know I I get my ideal day a lot here uh

I often get to have lunch with uh you I get up in the morning do Some work and then I'll have lunch with a great SEO you know a great friend and I think and then in the afternoon we might go some get some afternoon drinks with another great SEO and then in the evening will go to a chef's table with like Matt Diggity and our other friends that are seos and crushing it and we'll do like a chef's table together and and uh talk some more SEO and it's it's it's been a good day

good meals good drinks good friends yeah get I get that a lot Here who's the most funniest in in the whole group of seos me yeah I that's true that's you know what's great is is the the whole group is hilarious like the whole group is hilarious there are times when I've been laughing so hard like I'm wheezing you know but like everyone the thing like they're all sharp guys yes you know they're all sharp guys they're all personable you know and they also they they they care about people so like they Like to be

around people and then and then they're really really funny yeah like it's it's a really funny grw so and and who's the most serious out of them I mean I mean what's everyone has like an an appropriate level of seriousness I don't think there's one person maybe maybe introvert maybe not speaking that much you know Matt DIY is very introverted know like for him to get on stage and do that kind of stuff is very difficult for him and and um I think he Would much prefer to not do that so for him to put

like to create a conference is hilarious you think about like how like he is a very reserved uh uh person so um it's amazing to me he's had such success with putting this conference together when when that's very obvious actually but but when he comes on YouTube he when he talks it's like it's it's but he that I think but his personality is actually very reserved yes yes yes he's very quiet yeah and uh I think we were friends for two years before I realized we were he really liked me opposite yeah exactly wow wow

wow I think that that's very amazing to know so what's next what's your next experiment in B plan what's you planning to do next uh I mean right now my focus is on the software we just released some features and some new products we've got some more coming out and so the stuff that I'm doing is all Kind of focused on that and and it's going really well any advice for the aspiring seos you got to do SEO they're worrying about SEO and and doing SEO are two different things you know thinking about SEO and

doing SEO are two different things you can know something and it's different from doing jumping from that you know parachute for yeah if you don't do it you and when you just up you just have to do it and then then you do it it's completely different right so You got to do it yeah well nice I think that was a very very inspiring podcast thank you so much and uh I would really uh urge the audience to use page optimizer pro also subscribe for the IMG and um any anything for the audience maybe you

want to give anything maybe maybe maybe a Black Friday deal maybe oh we do have them I don't know what it is no actually if you go to page of.pro and then we have Live support those are humans that's not an AI bot uh you can ask them for the Black Friday promo codes and and they'll they'll give it to you perfect even I'll put up some links I'll talk to the team I'll add some links and then we'll put up thank you so much for your time it's very much valuable it's the most real

pleasure you know podcast where I've laughed I've had fun it's the most funny podcast I've done yesterday I was doing podcast with Iran zi I've done with cor and I have to be very serious in the Podcast those are serious dudes yeah so I have to be ifan is very different he is serious but he's funny at the same time he's a very different personality but yeah I have to be a little careful especially with the co you know with Kore it has to be very different it's it's a it's it's it's completely different thing

you know he's he's become a very good friend of mine but this was fun had a lot of fun I had a great time too thank you so much I'm a Very good friend of you thank you so much thank you for your time thank you thank you for sticking till the end of the con conversation with us we hope you found as much value as we did while creating it if you enjoyed the podcast and want us to bring more such influential guests then please don't forget to subscribe and hit the like button honestly

each like And subscribe help us keep going it keeps us motivated to make such content which is filled With insights and strategies for you if you enjoyed the podcast and want us to bring more such influential guests then don't forget to like and subscribe honestly each like or subscribe help us keep going and make such content which is filled with insights and valuable knowledge for you we'd love to hear from you in the comments anything you would like to tell us about the podcast whom do you want to see in the next podcast and what

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