when you are part of the Neo-Nazi movement um and you and you stand up in the morning when you drink your first tea uh and you hate you hate all day and uh and you listen to music and you hang around with comrades who all hate hate is just part of your life every every [Music] second I was born in Luc it's a small town uh nearby Hamburg uh my my parents were quite wealthy um I I didn't uh lack anything in my my young life and uh I had a um I had a good
childhood I didn't uh I didn't get any violence from my parents or was abused or anything and uh yeah going to school and everything was running very fine um till my father decided that we're moving from uh from Luc um that we're moving up to Newcastle um I was 10 years old at that time and uh that was uh that was quite a shock for me as a 10-year-old I didn't even know where England is or what Newcastle is and uh I didn't speak one word in English on the way to the school the first
uh the first uh person spit on me and uh I arrived in the class and somebody just threw out my uh my stuff I was I was like brought in into the class and just everybody looked at me like that's a German they never seen a German before and they um yeah they they called me a Nazi um crowd and Fritz and uh whatever you guys call Germans and uh and I didn't understand it I never heard the word Nazi before or anything I didn't know about it my parents picked me up from school and
I was crying and I said I want to go back to Germany I hate it here I don't understand anybody I don't have any friends that's the first time in my life that I was uh that was uh feeling being alone um but I started uh I started uh to learn English I had no choice um after maybe 6 month uh I could speak uh English better than now yeah I forgot a lot now and uh it took a long time to um to show I'm not a Nazi we didn't know my parents are are
not neo-nazis or anything but it took like one year for the first person to um to uh to come to my house I didn't speak uh German anymore I only spoke English and uh yeah I was now 14 years old we stayed like for 4 years and then my parents decided to go back to Germany um this time I just didn't cry just anymore I I was in I was very angry and uh very violent like throwing doors and just shouting at my parents I want to stay in Newcastle yeah I was very proud I
was called the German JY in uh Newcastle and I was very proud of it and uh yeah but I had no choice 14 years old I to move back with my uh with my parents how did you kind of first make contact with with the Neo-Nazi groups I'm now 15 15 and a half years old and I was a I was just just an angry angry lad uh just starting to hate everything like I hated school I hated society and uh and we came to music to angry music um it's a racial white power music
and these people people um they sing about um they sing a lot about a lot of people they hate everybody like um Jewish uh people Muslims like um uh like um gay people like every Democrat like police and Justice and uh every Democrat and they hate everybody in the music yeah they can sing about everybody I had the feeling they're talking directly to me and saying Phillip remember you belong to the best people in the world you are an Aryan you belong to the one or two% on this Earth who are the best people in
the world you should be ruling this world it's about wide power it's about saving your um it's about saving your race and it's uh when you come to us you will become part of our big family yeah um we're the good ones we're fighting for Europe and this music um was the first time in two years at that point who said to me I'm a I'm a good person yeah um my parents forgot to say this to me school forgot to say this to me and this white power music did this I know this is
uh very difficult to say but um right right-wing movement works works for a short time yeah if it wouldn't work it it would have been uh disappeared I had this uh anger in me and then it just needed a sort of small light like for me me to explode so I became very violent at school and uh and on the and on the schoolyard I found some other guys that were very angry as well we just started to hang around like five six seven guys and uh we um we didn't want to belong to society
anymore yeah we said well we don't want to be a part we don't want to wear your clothes we don't want to wear you um whatever you wear we don't want to listen to your music and we don't want to be part of your society and then um some older comrades they heard oh there are these young guys like hanging around and they they are in no um in no movement yeah they're just hanging around but and they said well just on the weekend just just come to our pu and then uh we'll buy you
a beer and we have a barbecue and and then and then the politics came like we first um did it on a friendship basis yeah just yeah just putting some ties some some some loose ties and then when you start to hang around you say oh well yeah yeah you take that music you listen to that here's a t-shirt here's like or or next weekend we're traveling to Berlin there's a there's a um something from our rightwing party for a short time they gave us the feeling um of seeing us I don't know how you
say it in English like all right I see you guys you are angry you can be part of us uh of of our movement I wanted to believe and I was scared as a 16 or 17year old to like to to talk against the older comrades yeah I wanted to be part of their family and their group and that was all I had at that time um a big role played at that time that were neonazi concerts um just like meeting up with 500 or thousand people just like sicking in the in the concert and
that sort of gives you a feeling um you're Ultra strong like hanging around with a thousand yeah Lads and just just hating and just shouting at this music you think you're unbeatable yeah you think you're very important and and that that was the thing that worked very well at my uh at this point I don't know how to say it in English but but even but even the evil can have Charisma yeah it is uh and nobody is all day long evil yeah they can be also a good friend but they're still very violent and
uh and and and um and Spread spread this hate obviously you mentioned your family and how are they reacting to this my parents thought all right this is just just like a short phase I don't know yeah can you it's just like a short phase and uh and um it will grow out yeah all right he's now a little bit violent and uh but um everything will be sorted out in one or two years and they they just looked away I I think they did want to see it I put a swas sticker flag in
my in my u in my in my room yeah and my mom just came in and just put it down and just uh just um just hid it from me and I just searched the house and I put it back on and my mother put it back off they just didn't talk with us our family just didn't sit down and talk and and at what one point I didn't want to talk anymore as soon as I had these friends I just didn't want to talk with my parents anymore as soon as they asked me something
I just said off what what kind of is expected of you if you're to join to join this group it is expected uh from you that you visit demonstrations that you put some power into the movement they um they want to rewrite history they say we have a different view on History we have different facts they have um they have like books for themselves where they say we are the victims we are not we are not the aggressor but there are some things that um that every group thinks of it's the first point it is
racism that's the easiest thing um to live out you don't have to have a a good school education or have to study or anything yeah you can just put people into uh yeah into races and just say well I I belong to the best and you're you don't you're you're you belong to somebody um worthless um that's that's very easy so race racism was everywhere um it belongs um um the anti-Semitism um like hating uh Jewish people and saying uh Jewish people are uh are um are like directing the world and of course uh a
new thing which came up in the last 10 15 years is uh is the hate against Muslims uh coming to Europe and uh uh like these groups say like they're trying to uh to force out Christianity most of the people in the Neo-Nazi scene are looking for a new fura U like uh like a strong strong man isn't allowed to be a woman yeah for a neo-nazis so they're looking for a strong man like um Germany you say we have to we need a little Hitler yeah and would you and your like comrades racially abuse
people on the street in public or was it all kind of done in secret yeah some times people think like neo-nazis go out on the street and they just hate hate like everybody they see yeah then that that doesn't work but of course when when we were as a as a group in in tune then um uh we had pick like on uh on some some some guys when when we were in a group and we had shouted them uh um racial things and uh looking for a fight that was normal life it started for
me being violent just um it sounds maybe maybe strange but yeah just fighting with fists and yeah just just like just some bruises and uh you you get better at violence just like you get better when you train to ride a bicycle or go swimming you you you just become better at it and uh and you start to to organize weapons like using a knife and then I organized my my uh my first gun and uh uh I was Steed stabbed stubbed down uh when I was 17 just running around as well like stabbing people
at the beginning where I came into this group and we felt very strong and uh and I thought I was part of something very big I was yeah I was I was growing and now now the people started to fear me so um yeah I was maybe not happy but I felt uh the first time after many years being part of something something when you are part of the Neo-Nazi movement um and you and you stand up in the morning when you drink your first tea uh and you hate you hate all day and uh
and you listen to music and you hang around with comrades who all hate hate is just part of your life every every second um and um the the first thing you lose is like empathy for people yeah I didn't feel anything for for human beings anymore so it was very easy for me like to be violent at them because I didn't see them as human beings um and then it just got more and more like um to the point I was shooting at people um for for for me for uh yeah to kill them and
you mentioned like actively shooting at people did you ever see anybody die um out of i i i founded u i founded a a comrade group yeah I was I was a leader of a of a very well-known comrade group in Germany and uh and these comrades at a at a New Year's Eve um they uh they killed somebody in their in their apartment I wasn't there but that they were my boys at that at that time um but but I wasn't part of it but I was like uh very nearby yeah that was very
uh very terrible when they when they killed somebody I was just a little bit shocked how how cold how cold blooded they did it yeah they just they just didn't see a human being there um on this night they they U um somebody who visited them they cut his throat and uh they were talking about it like like they they stamed like on an on an ant on a on the floor or something um that was uh that was the first time for me to think about is this the right movement yeah are these the
right people I'm hanging around with um but it still took a while to to go out of that movement but I I was shocked how cold blooded it was did you have any guilty conscience about what you were doing or at that point no um uh um all the years I was I was in this movement I always thought I was I was right um um when you are in these groups you start to lie to yourself yeah you think you are the good one but inside I knew we are the bad ones and um
but um I lied to myself and I thought we are doing everything right and uh and all all extremists um say um we are the Vic victims we we only fight back yeah we fight back to the to the police to the democracy and we are the victims so yeah I thought I was always right can you talk about your kind of Rise through the the ranks we we always prepared ourself um in the belief that one day we will arise and take over uh Democratic structures like taking over um the the the council the
mayor's office and the police stations in order to do this on this day when we arise we need weapons and we have to be prepared um and this was uh this was quite uh quite easy in a short time um to like unite um like 3040 50 people uh really on the radical side to to prepare for uh for Civil War in Germany um all the time I was active in this movement I I um I always bought um weapons when I was 18 or 19 years old I I bought my first Kalashnikov in AK-47
um I had um many um uh machine guns from the second world war which we bought from old veterans and uh um we we bought a paner f i don't know like like a rocket launcher um some hunt grenades and everything we just um we made like deposits in the in the woods yeah like like a prepper but we also so planned um um attacks on like uh um like um I don't know the antifa the anti-fascist scene or uh or some lefties how we call it I don't know um so U we had fights
with them just attacking them when we see them on the streets we we waited around corners attacking them um so violence was part like like others go once a week like out for dinner or something we just plan violence were there any points where you were arrested during this time yeah I was arrested a lot of times of course had a lot of police raids um at my house I was pulled out of the I don't know if you have like Police SWAT or Special Forces like they raided like my car and pulled me out
with guns and uh so um yeah I had I had a lot of trouble with police but I I was uh I was arrested and was I I was out on probation I don't know I think probation for 16 years can you imagine yeah I I had a probation next to another probation I like 16 years probation I was arrested the first time when I was uh 33 I had my first prison time and had you seen anyone leave the farre movement and if so how were they treated for leaving well all I had in
my life was I didn't have any contact to my family just one or once or twice a year just calling them for Christmas yeah and just saying yeah hello and as a young lad um this movement told me come to us yeah we are the good ones here's family we see you and we'll we'll we'll take care of you and all these good things but the older I got um I looked around um to the comrades and uh and to be honest there were a lot of people within this movie um they were not socialized
at all they didn't go to work yeah they uh they couldn't live a life they they were full of uh full of debt with their money yeah and uh just just had just had enormous social problems what I thought is is the is the is the right life and I was I was promoting but it just it just made me very unhappy and um and I became like uh I fell into a sort of depression um living this life I didn't have any friends outside this movement I only had this group so when when you
decide to to go out of the National Socialist movement then you lose everything um you are uh called very quickly a traitor I think a traitor um and um and there and and the the aggression from the gro will come towards you and how was it for you leaving um I sort of lied to them yeah I just said oh I um I I don't feel so good and I I need a break sort of yeah yeah I'm still fighting and I need a break and uh even even that is for many of the comies
like they said why how you you you you need a break fighting for your race yeah what is this so they already talk behind your back um but I'm I did it um I did it very slowly going out of it yeah I just um I lied to them and then at one point I said all right I'm out and I'm doing something else but we'll stay friends yeah that's the way I choose um there are many ways to do it I think the best way is just to go and just move move somewhere else
but that everybody has to decide that for themselves you know when you have been an outlaw for 15 years and you're outside of society in Germany when you are a Neo-Nazi in Germany you are not part of society most of the people in Germany just hate you for being a Neo-Nazi and um there were a lot of articles about me yeah and the internet and the television and everything and um going out of that group I was scared um of uh is society giving me a chance again yeah if I if I want to change
um will people uh give me their hand again now am I is it allowed for me to be loved again or to love somebody and to take part in a normal society Society life and and will people believe me it's a it's a question um till today maybe somebody from your team will sit here and say once a Nazi always a Nazi or something um all these big questions was something which uh which made me um think and uh I was really scared of changing because of all these questions I think you cannot change your
life overnight it's not like a it is everybody who is who has changed in their life they know that's a that's a journey my National Socialist um view on the world and my thinking died over many years yeah um and I think the best way like it worked I think from my point of view is like um to meet people yeah not just to read books or study or anything you have to meet people from different countries from different beliefs so you can so you can uh um lose your uh your racial view your view
uh your hate your view like on the world and uh I knew I needed professional help um because of this life I lived so long in this movement and uh yeah I went to the prison like you had pck and uh and I asked him for help I said I think I'm a loony and I I I destroyed my life and uh and I need help I think it's a superpower for everybody out there to ask for help that's a absolute superpower and um and he said yeah all right I will work with you I
was uh sentenced to three years in prison and uh he worked with me uh on my uh on My Views and on my uh um handling strategies and I was very thankful for uh for this help in prison I became a Buddhist in prison and uh yeah that was very important to to get like professional help that was very important were you ashamed of your past yeah of course uh when I really started to like when I stepped out um that was the first time I I was thinking about what I did to people like
um when you when you realize when you are uh mid-30 and uh and you realize the last 20 years um you just you only destroyed lives U from these 20 years there's not one person who will say oh all right that's good that I met Phillip you just you just have um bad influence on everything on people and on society then when I was on prison and I and I approached this change and I wanted to change um I was so mad at myself that the first half year in prison like I put a towel
on my uh prison um mirror because I couldn't look um I I didn't want to see my face because I hated myself so much um then in prison I lost uh the first time in my life I lost the um uh I lost the idea of wanting to live like maybe like it's time to die like thinking about committing suicide like um that's um that's uh um that's very hard to to um to find yourself thinking about um committing suicide and the first questions uh when I went to this uh psychiatric um was uh is
it all right for me to be loved again yeah for because I did these things is it is it all right for me to come back to society and he said when you want to stop hating when you want to stop being violent and hating foreigners or hating people um then it's your right to change and then um do it for yourself don't do it for anybody else I used the time in prison to be mad at myself and hating myself and then I left this uh uh This Feeling being guilty behind me um I
I was angry at me I I apologized to my victims and I uh um I left it behind me now and how old were you when you were released from prison um I was uh 38 38 when I was release from prison year when when I now think about it was like 15 Wasted Years really I uh I destroyed the lives of my victims I destroyed the the the the families of my victims I destroyed my family I destroyed my life there's nothing good about these 15 years I just just hate myself for for living
this life um maybe in the beginning when I was a young guy um that that we were hanging around yeah for a short time um I had this feeling there was there was like the family feeling but this this didn't even hold for six months so there was really nothing nothing good about living this life was just full with hate and violence from that point how did you take the steps to rebuild your life to where you are now yeah I I was very thankful and I'm still thankful for my uh parents and my uh
my sister and my uh brother-in-law um who um who took me back into the family without um without without any suspicion against me and uh uh and I came out of prison and I started with zero friends yeah I just I just didn't um I just put all the contacts away I was not available for anybody and I I moved back to my old city to Lubec and uh I started just with zero friends and uh then I started to uh to talk about my life at YouTube and uh and I started to go out
to do Sports again and I met some people and uh and they said well all right I give you a chance just like and then uh now six years later I have uh I'm going to get married this Summer and uh and um I have a very good friends now around me and I enjoy my new life to the fullest the main what's the main thing you would want people to take away from hearing your story um it can happen to everybody it is not like uh it's it's not uh not only poor people radicalize
or or people um in in in Muslim communities or in uh or in like worker families or everything it can happen to everybody it's all right to be angry it's all right just not everybody fits in into this one system school there are times where where you just have to be a friend just be there yeah just just not not leave anybody behind and don't just say all right my kids and just let them alone and your problems are not so bad just listen to them be aware and just just give some love uh I
think if I would have had this I wouldn't have radicalized [Music] myself there was a guy sitting on the train opposite with his wife and his two kids and he had a Crystal Palace lapel badge just a little badge on his jacket the guy saw it he lent across and he punched the bloke squarely in the face and then hit him three more times in front of his wife and his two kids
