A Psychologist's Take on Delusional Female Entitlement in Dating | Orion Taraban @psychacks

According to men, women tend to peak at around 22, 23 years old. >> What? >> Yes. This is actually the oldest it's ever been. >> Congratulations. >> The way to get a man's commitment is for a woman to >> Dr. Orion Taban is a world famous [music] clinical psychologist who's helped thousands of men. >> I've been on more first dates than most people have been on dates. I dated like [music] it was my job. Sometimes women think that after sex happens, he's just going to keep trying or keep escalating. [music] And it's like, no sweetie,

you have to make the effort. >> Who would you say it is easier to be today in the dating marketplace? A woman or a man? >> To believe that [music] the commitment Will come before the sex. That's very expensive because your competition is giving away free samples. >> How much can a woman really control relationship with sex? >> A lot. There's a couple of reasons why women get ghosted. One of them is this is why it's very ironic when people say that they're looking for love. Love is a hard thing. >> As a man, I

always felt there is a Quality to a man who also doesn't sleep around with women. [music] >> I want to start this podcast by asking you a question about your experience as a clinical psychologist. I believe you've worked with thousands of people by now, right? >> At this point, yeah, in all kinds of different issues. So based on that vast experience, who would you say it is easier to be today in the dating marketplace? A woman or a man? >> I do think that in today's day and age, it is easier for a woman than

for a man. >> Okay. In general, young women are much more attractive to men than young men are to women. And we know that the things that men and women are attracted to aren't always the same. There are some general things that we all are looking for. We would prefer partners who are kind or partners who are smart or partners who are loyal. But there also are some very gender differences in What men and women are attracted to. And it turns out that men still very much value youthfulness, physical beauty, attractiveness, and that according to

men, women tend to peak at around 22, 23 years old. >> What? >> Yes. This is actually the oldest it's ever been. The survey has been done multiple times throughout the last like 50 or 60 years. I think the first time it was done they peaked at 19. So men's Tastes have matured somewhat over the last 60 years. Now it's 23. >> Congratulations. [laughter] >> 23 is the peak. >> Yeah. You see that also in passive behavior on dating apps. Uh no matter what the age of the man is, they'll swipe more on women around

22 to 24 years old. Whereas women tend to swipe a little bit more age appropriately. If you look at a 50-year-old man's age filters on a dating app, it's often from 18 to 40 years old. >> Wow. >> And I don't think that's comparable to a 50-year-old woman. >> 50-y old women tend to date maybe 48 to 60, something like that. That would seem to be reasonable. >> That sounds about right. >> Sounds a bit better recipe for a happy relationship. >> No, it depends on what you're looking for. So women are much more attracted.

They have more of what they want in what they have more of what men want in their 20s. What are some of the things that women tend to look for? They look for emotional maturity. They look for an established lifestyle. They look for status and wealth. They look for strength. And most guys in their 20s don't have those things. So, it takes a long time For men to have the things that most women want. And that usually changes in the 30s. So, women in their 20s definitely have an easier time dating than men in their

20s. It can get harder for women starting in their 30s. >> Yeah, that's what I'm seeing like with women that I coach. On paper, they've done things right. They have a good career. They are focused on healing and invested in learning how to be Supportive wives potentially, but they don't find men who are willing to commit. >> Yeah, it's going to be tough because, you know, a lot of those women I assume prioritized other things in their 20s, either their education or career usually >> or they traveled and just had fun. Like those are the

two big things. And it's like, okay, fair enough. and then you know in their mid30s they're thinking of settling down and that's kind of nearing The end of their reproductive window. And so you have to understand that from just like a purely economic perspective the woman at 38 wants the same deal as the woman who's 22. They both want marriage and a lifetime of commitment. And the 38-year-old woman generally wants it at a much more extrapolated lifestyle. Like a woman at 38 wants more comfort and expects kind of a better way of living than a

woman at 22. So she's actually more expensive with respect to That. And for men who want to get married and start a family, a 38-year-old woman is not a very attractive reproductive prospect. I mean, I know that hurts some people's feelings, but that's just how it is. >> Are you finding that men want to have children as much as they did in the past? >> I don't know. I don't think so. >> I think the rates are going down. So That's why I'm asking cuz I'm wondering >> if men are wanting to have kids less

and I know women I I I know in general people are having kids later and less then why is that a factor still so much? >> It's a great question. Well, I don't think it necessarily needs to be but why would a woman want to get married? So in my opinion the the only reasonable reason to get married is to start a family. Otherwise, you can just be two adults who enjoy spending time with each Other. Like, why do you have to get the government involved? Why do you have to make a contract? It's kind

of weird cuz we talk about it being like love, >> but like I'm sure you love your friends, but you never sat them down and made them sign a document that promised that they would never stop being your friend. And if they did, you would be entitled to all kinds of compensation as a consequence of that. I mean, [laughter] you would like a friend who gave you That agreement would look at you like you're nuts and be like, "This is not a friend, dude. We're just we're just homies." Like, what? What's Why do we need

a contract? >> Misinterpret how much I like you. [laughter] >> I know we're in California right now, but chill. [laughter] >> Yeah, >> I see what you mean. But I think sometimes maybe marriage is about I Don't know. What was it for you? Like, why did you want to get married? Well, first of all, I don't think I have an ability to give love easily. >> Okay. >> And I think it's it's a lot to do with what I've been through in my life with my childhood and so on. So, I don't really develop loving

feelings towards friends. >> Okay. >> I I need to be involved romantically in Order to tap that part in my >> Really? >> Yeah. I don't love any of my friends. Like cuz love for me is like you feel a deeper emotional response. So obviously like if someone would be to leave this world as a friend, I would be sad. Okay. But it's not the same as losing your partner. I discovered love very late in my life with her. >> I was 31 years old when I loved for the first time. So it's so interesting

Because when you learn how to love so late in life, it's almost like starting a career when you already have all the experiences and you get into the career with the right like attitude. With love, I have been through so many things that I can truly distinguish what it means to love when you discover it so late. I didn't have like high school crushes and all these like, well, maybe those aren't real love anyway, right? I mean, I've certainly for me love has been kind of Like an onion. I've I've certain parts in my life

of like, oh, this is love. And that was the deepest I was able to go. And then that relationship ended for various reasons. I got into another relationship. It's like, oh, now this is this is real love. It's deeper and it's it feels different. Ah, I finally figured it out. And then that relationship ended for various reason. Oh, this is what it is. So, it's possible that I haven't reached the Bottom yet either. But I wonder at it's interesting because at every stage of my life I felt like I was loving and then in retrospect

it seemed maybe more superficial or more based on lirance and attraction or more based on egoic concerns and like emotional neediness and wanting to be completed by somebody. So, you know, they were interesting and learning experiences for me, but it's hard for me to look back at those and say, "Oh, yeah. I've I knew what love Was when I was 16, you know, for instance." >> Do you think you know it now? >> I think so. >> I think I've I've loved and I know how to love and it's really [ __ ] hard to

do. >> Yeah. >> It's very very hard. >> Yeah. >> Love require I think relationships require maintenance. Love For me is, as I talk about in the book, it's the humiliated self-exaltant. For me, love is sacrifice in the service of the loved one. And it's like blind to self and cares only for the good of the other. And that's extremely difficult. I think it's kind of interesting that one of humanity's greatest models for that, like the person of Jesus, >> right? >> He only really lived for about 3 years from 30 to 33 preaching love

and he was In the Christian mythology God. Like God could love for 3 years and that was as much as he could handle and he made the ultimate sacrifice, right? [laughter] Like it's very very hard to love. This is why it's very to me ironic when people say that they're looking for love. Like love is a hard thing. >> It so worth it though. >> Well, sure. Like it helped me grow up. It helped me to mature. It helped me to have a deeper, richer experience of self And other and life. I'm glad I did

it, but I'm also glad to get what I want. Love exists in relationships, but it's almost like a serendipitous overlay on top of it. And the relationships typically aren't formed or certainly can't sustain themselves through love alone. >> When you look at the both aspect, relationship versus love, which you seem to draw like a line in between. >> Sure. >> When you look at the both and really feel into that question, what can expand you more as a human being? Uh certainly like I just said, I think love can really expand who you are as

a human being, but so could also running a marathon. So could building a business. >> Like so could adopting a child. >> True. >> There are many very hard things that human beings can do that will Dramatically expand their consciousness, their sense of self, their soul. >> And how many people do those in their spare time? So again, the ironic thing to me is that when people say they're looking for love, they're not looking to be turned inside out. They're not looking for this really hard thing. Oo, I really want to do a hard thing

that's going to break me open so I can learn to love in a selfless way. They want to be loved, which is a totally different Experience. >> It's the difference between going to a restaurant to eat and to work. >> The customer and the waitress have very different experiences. the restaurant. To be loved is to be served. It's the best thing in the world. >> Yeah, >> it's great to have that kind of selfless devotion attended to you. >> Can you be both loved and the lover? >> Um, it's possible. It's difficult to do. Uh,

like you technically you probably can't do it simultaneously. Like the moment that I'm receiving, I can't also be giving. >> We talk about that sometimes with our own love. Yeah, >> because that would also be a invalidation of your gift. It feels good to give, right? Which means that you need to be with someone who can take. And if I just as soon as I receive something give something back, which is Generally what people do with something like a compliment, most people can't even take a compliment. >> Yeah. >> You say I'm just, oh, but

it's nothing about you. You look [ __ ] fantastic. you know, but on some level it invalidates your gift >> because I just sort of like paved it over with my own. It's also, I think, interesting to be able to just sit in receiving >> without necessarily having to give it back. You might give it back tomorrow or, you know, a week from now, but just like in that moment, just take it in. >> Schedule the compliment in the future. [laughter] In 5 days, I will say it back for now. It's all about me. >>

[gasps] >> I want to ask you cuz you said about the ease of being a woman that's in her 20s in the dating world and you said that men who are younger tend to have it Harder. >> Yeah. >> Which obviously is so true because all these stats show how little men actually get matches on all these dating profiles. >> That's awful. Yeah. I want to ask you based on your experience specifically focused on men who are in these younger years. What is the number one mistake? Uh I do think that men on some level

kind of have to make a sacrifice of Their 20s and they have to devote them their energies and their attention to building something uh building their bodies, building their business, building their lifestyle and to give up trying to find your place in the world. This is an interesting concept. It's one that I believed when I was younger like I have to find my place. Simone de Bovois talks about this very persuasively. It's like the world is always ever full. Like if I wasn't here, If I was never born, you two probably wouldn't be thinking there's

an Orion sized hole in the world somewhere. You know, it would seem like everything was was full and complete. No matter if there's a billion people in the world or 10 billion people in the world, >> we don't miss that which has never been. Mhm. >> So there's not like an empty space that's just waiting for you to arrive. And I used to think that when I was Younger, I bet a lot of guys do. It's like, I need to find my scene, you know? I need to find the right career. It's like they're just

waiting for me to to show up. And it's like that doesn't happen because the world is always ever full. So the way to find your place in the world is to build it for yourself. and to build it among other people. The best way to do that is to is to look very closely at what people need and to satisfy those needs. >> I also think that men kind of have to build a callous around women in their 20s. I think especially if you're talking about the dating apps, men have to take massive action in

order to get any kind of result. Women don't like that. They don't like getting the same canned message >> uh that every other woman does. >> Yes. >> But it's just a waste of energy for the average man because even if he had a Perfect witty and personally crafted message, it gets ignored 98% of the time. So, uh he would get burnt out before he even got a response. Being a man with women in your 20s, sort of like being a telemarketer. The vast majority of the time people are just going to hang up on

you. >> It's rough. You hear that voice on the phone and you're like, "Oh no, why did they pick it up?" >> Yeah. [laughter] You dread it. >> Women feel that way or >> Sure. I mean, it's it's icky to get attention from guys that you're not attracted to, I imagine, or that you you don't want to get looked at. >> I don't know if that's true. I I think maybe with objectification or being sexualized. Yes. But I think that that's what I'm talking about. >> Yeah. Okay. But I think if someone is just like,

"Oh, you're beautiful." And and that there's just an appreciation, Then it doesn't feel icky. is just like, "Oh, maybe I don't feel attracted back to you, but thank you." Are there things that men should be doing on their dating profiles in general to stand out? >> Holding fishes with their shirt. >> No, I'm [laughter] okay. >> You know, Sonia was saying something that made me think >> I was saying that love can seem so hard when we don't have the tools and we feel Like we need to navigate it all alone. >> Yeah. I I

feel like we've gotten used to this concept that love must be either self love or maybe love with a partner, but how about learning about love in a group of people who want to be better at it? >> Exactly. And it would really really help us if you help us hit that subscribe button because we can reach more people and get the best guests on the show that help us push that narrative of believing In love again. So >> do that please. And and as you hit subscribe, maybe also hit the bell so you never

miss an episode. Thank you so much. >> Uh, one thing that they could definitely do is level up their pictures. Like I've looked at some men's profiles and they're real bad. >> You know, most guys only have pictures of themselves on vacation. Okay, fair enough. And with their guy friendss Maybe. So to actually get photos of yourself on a nice camera like an SLR with good lighting, it doesn't have to look like a professional headsh shot, but just having high quality images can put you ahead of like 90 95% of men on dating apps. >>

That's huge. >> Sure. And you just need what? Six of them. Anybody can get six good pictures. A great way to do this that I've recommended to guys is to use Airbnb Experiences. Have you heard of these? Airbnb most people know for these short-term rentals, but a few years ago they launched kind of a complement to that site. So, you can either get the rentals or experiences. >> So, let's say you're traveling to LA or to Bali and you don't know anybody. You don't have anything to do and you want to you don't want to

just go to all the touristy places like the, you know, Sunset Boulevard and the Hollywood sign. So, there are locals who are like, I'll take you to the real Chinatown or I'm going to show you the best hidden spots for Korean barbecue or something like that. You probably wouldn't know otherwise. Yeah, >> half of those experiences are professional photographers who will say, "I will take you to the golden hour to this beautiful spot and I even help you with outfits or poses and they cost 100 bucks." >> That's within the means of most people. >>

After this episode, Airbnb is going to get booked out all the experiences around. >> Yeah, maybe I should get into affiliate >> Exactly. Exactly. The the fun fact is that we actually met on a dating profile. >> Well, sure. Most people do these days. We we met on Tinder. Forever grateful because I found you and >> I'm grateful I was in my 20s. >> It's but I have such a unique experience and I don't know if it's because you are you think so differently about the world. I have followed all the rules of like what

you just said, great photos and at that time I was a a proud owner of a six-pack. >> Nice. >> It drifted away. It's a fourpack now. >> It's still great. It's not as free, but I had like, you know, I showed my best side, right? >> Of course. >> You know that after getting matched with her, she told me that she almost didn't swipe on me cuz I was too showy. >> Where do you draw the line where you think, "Oh, like I need to be the best version of myself." And then she wouldn't

swipe on me because I showed too much. >> Well, she almost didn't. >> That's true. >> Which means that she did. >> Okay. [laughter] >> And that's true. >> So that's true. Let's look at the behavior as opposed to the >> He had a lot of other things to be fed. >> That was only one photo with like >> Yeah, he he showed a lot of other amazing things like lifestyle stuff for instance, how many countries he traveled to and he had like a zombie makeup on so I thought he was also an actor and

I was Like, "Oh, that's great." >> No, he's just a zombie. I wanted to show I'm edgy, you know? >> Okay. You said in one of your interviews that women should bring out their nastiest, [ __ ] side [laughter] to seduce a man. >> Yeah, it got me into trouble. So, I've switched it to the giving the richest, creamiest milk they possibly can. >> Is that worse? >> Yeah. [laughter] Yes, that is. >> Um, why? So, the reason for that is things happen in a New York minute in today's dating scene. Most women have potentially

dozens of matches that they're talking to. And if you let too much time go by, it's just like, okay, next kind of a thing. When you meet somebody on a dating app in particular, you can't pretend that you're the only person that they're talking to, dating, or even sleeping with. That's the Situation. So, you already are entering into a competition, but you don't even know who who really you're competing against. >> Mh. >> Okay. So, you have to pair this also with the reality in today's day and age that with relationships, sex precedes commitment. That's

the modern situation is how does it typically go? Yeah, in the western world, right? But that's changing even In other parts of the world too. It's we go on some dates, we're attracted to each other, we sleep with each other, maybe that goes on for a few weeks and a few months and it's like, well, what are we what's going on? Like who? And then you have the define the relationship conversation, right? Because it's usually the [laughter] woman. So, it's it's a couple months later and then it's like, "Oh, I thought we were just really

chill and this is what you wanted or oh, You yeah, I like you, too, and let's let's have a relationship and what does that look like?" And we're having a conversation and you guys have been screwing for weeks or months at this point, right? So to believe that the commitment will come before the sex is that's very expensive in today's day and age because your competition is giving away free samples. So you can't really charge when your competition is giving away free samples. The old line that Like why buy the cow when you can get

the milk for free. It's now more or less like why would you buy the cow if you have to pay for the milk? like I expect the milk. Now, if you don't give the milk, >> then I'm just gonna pass you on to one of the two dozen people who I have lined up who will give that to me. So, if you can't differentiate yourself based on, you know, what you charge for your samples, what can you do? You can make Sure that your sample is the richest creamiest milk that's available. That's where that comes

from. So, um that's one way. Now the other thing is you have to understand that most women are gunning for a very small percentage of the total men. >> Sadly true. >> Not even single men. Like they're still targeting the taken men. >> Get the [ __ ] [laughter] out of my life. >> I'm taken. Well, it's also like why do men become famous and successful? >> Mhm. >> You know the people scratch their heads, especially women. It's like why did the president cheat? Why did the CEO cheat? Why did the star athlete cheat? It's

like, why did they become the star athlete or the president or the CEO? Like, consciously or not, >> higher status, more successful men get access to more and more attractive Women. >> And you think that's what drives them? >> Oh, yeah. >> Really? >> Whether they're aware of it or not, most guys kind of are, but it's not socially acceptable to say. I mean, this is the ultimate game is the is sex. It's the propagation of our genes. It's survival. All spare and love and war. How much can a woman really control relationship with sex?

>> A lot. I mean, you've heard this phrase [ __ ] whipped before, right? >> Yes. >> You know what they're talking about. >> Yes. [laughter] >> So, yes, if if a if a woman can give, especially if she's able to do she's willing to do things that other women aren't, >> that gets it hooks in a particular guy. Like guys will still hold candles in their hearts for women >> that they miss [ __ ] like decades later when they're with their wives and especially when they're with their wives because maybe they get the

other needs met. They get security. They get emotional stability. They get family. So what are they missing? They're missing the wild passionate bedroom. >> That's why so often men and women cheat down. Sometimes guys are like, "Why did she sleep with the pool boy? He's broke." Yeah, but he's got a six-pack And a vigorous sexual appetite that can go three or four rounds. So, it's like she has everything else. She has the house in Malibu. She has the Rolls-Royce. She has the the the two and a half kids, you know? So, what is she missing?

People always want what they lack. That's what wanting means. Wanting both means to desire and to lack. And so, as long as we desire, we're going to desire what we don't have. >> Who cheats more often? >> Men. But they have to cheat on somebody, right? Um, and women are catching up very fast, >> right? >> They're very fast. So, um, it's still men, but the gap is closing. And I think it's because of what I was just talking about is it's like he pays the piper or she who pays the piper calls the tune

on some level. There's a really interesting play by the Norwegian playwright Henrik Ipsson called A Doll's House. Have you have you heard of this play? It rocked the world even though I think it was written in the late 19th century. And it's a little domestic drama about a little bgeoa family in Norway. >> And the the guy is like a normal guy. He's a business guy. He's married to this woman who is a housewife who raises the kids, but he's kind of like a you know, he's got that male privilege that we talk about sometimes.

and he has his Mistress and you know he doesn't really listen to his wife and he kind of does what he wants and he's the king of his castle. >> Okay. >> And so his wife gets sick of this and so but she realizes that she's financially dependent on the man and there's no way that she can kind of do her own thing or leave uh if that remains true. So she starts like some part-time side hustle and the Husband and all of his friends laugh at her. It's like a woman making money. this is

crazy. But she just like ignores him and sticks with it. And eventually the little side hustle starts to take off and she starts to make some money. And at the end of the play, we see her going out on a Friday night to meet with her lover. So it's like, why do people fantasize about being rich and powerful? >> Well, they want to get more of what they Want and less of what they don't. That's not socially unacceptable. But probably the other one is that they want the rules not to apply to them. I wonder

with everything you said, there's one thing that I I fight with personally and it's a it's the type of a story that I had to ask her before the episode if I can share it because it's very personal. It's like go for it. I once had an Experience and I wonder how many men would have something similar because in order to become someone who makes their dreams come true and becomes a quality man, you develop beliefs that may actually make you feel iffy when a woman is too easy. Before I met Sonia, I had like

a little chapter of like, let me try to get into the dating marketplace and get a girl and like just try this whole how does that Work, right? I'm so confident right now. And so >> like you wanted to sew your wild oats a bit or you were looking for a girlfriend? >> No, I was more of like the first. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Which I never heard before. So I was doing that trying to do. >> Okay. >> And I remember I found this this girl young. I was 30. She was 21. you know,

The classic classic stereotypical like she's at the peak. And so I went on a date and it went exactly the way you described. The moment we start talking, she already send signals. >> So it wasn't even it wasn't even like a second date. Literally within the after the first maybe 30 minutes on the date, she's like sending signals that we're going to have sex. Very attractive girl. Everything is going well. >> This sounds terrible. >> Terrible. It's [laughter] such >> No, but okay. So, >> poor you. >> So, on the second date, I'm like, "Okay,

it's my time. This is first time I do something like this in my life." >> Uhhuh. >> I get a hotel room without telling her, but I'm assuming this is where it's going to go, right? So, we go on the second date and it's progressing exactly how I expected. I get in the hotel room And I cannot express to you how much out of place I felt. Sure. >> I felt cheap and easy. >> You felt cheap and easy. >> I felt like as a man, I always felt there is a quality to a man

who also doesn't sleep around with women. I know there there are different voices that say, "Oh, a man can sleep with as many women as he wants and he's still going to be of high Quality." For me, it was a bit different. Okay? >> And so, we got in a room and I felt so out of place that I had to drink myself into sex. Sure. >> I felt >> Well, she was a stranger. >> She was a stranger. Yes. But she was very attractive. >> Yeah. >> And the night progressed and she unleashed the

slattiest card. >> Okay. She unleashed it all. And I felt so out of place that I couldn't get hard. >> And that was the only experience in my life that I had where I would go for this like, you know, look at me, I'm a quality man. Be easy. open yourself as soon as possible. And I felt so weird about how I, as a man who who's achieving and making his dreams come true, which takes so much hard work. Here I am trying to get a girl who's Available right away. I've had similar experiences. So

I remember when I was really young in my early 20s, uh I wouldn't even need to know the girl's name or we wouldn't even have to talk. It was just purely a physical lust thing. >> And I didn't have any issues with that. >> Around the age that you were talking about, like around 30, like in my late >> I was 29 or 30. I remember one time I matched with a girl on a dating app. We Didn't even go on a date. She just came over to my house. I'd never even met this woman

and she got in the car >> and she came over to my house and within, you know, 10 minutes we're naked in bed together with a total this total stranger. And she's also saying, "I want you to grab my hair and call me your little whore." And it was just sort of like, "What's your favorite color?" You know, it made me feel [laughter] It made me feel uh what is going on? And it was difficult for me to perform. And ultimately, for me, I think it was because I didn't like being told what to do.

I'd like to be the more dominant person >> and I was >> I was very confused by the experience. And my takeaway was now at 30, I need to have some sort of emotional connection with a woman for me to feel sexually attracted to her, which is when I was Younger, I definitely did not need that. She was just a an attractive body, basically. >> Um, so that changed the way that I dated from from then on. >> So, I do think that you can mature. What gets you interested and excited at 16 probably isn't

going to be what gets you excited at 36 or 76, you know, cuz they still want to have sex, too. >> A lot of it. >> Mhm. [laughter] So, that that makes sense to me. It might also be true. This is both and not necessarily neither or that this was your first time doing this kind of a thing. >> And people get comfortable with practice. You know what I'm saying? Otherwise there wouldn't and a lot of attraction is not based on emotional connection. It's not based on personality. Otherwise how do places like Eitha exist? You

know the people Don't even speak the same language. >> But there's a language of the movement. There's a language of the look. There's a language >> of the vibe. >> Yeah. I recently heard I [ __ ] is a thing. I >> you look at someone and you are having sex with your eyes >> and then that's that's like the pre cursor to sex. >> I kind of have an episode coming out About that. I call it the look >> because a lot of guys struggle with how to communicate sexual intent which is something that

you have to do fairly early on in your interactions with a woman so that she doesn't think that you're just a nice guy giving her a compliment. Yes, >> that is actually really important. Yes, I agree. Um, on the flip side with women, your advice is okay, you need to stand out >> and be the, you know, your new term. >> Yeah. >> The thing with that is a lot of times the experience that women go through is they'll have sex with a man and they're hoping that then he's going to stay. >> Sure. >>

But he leaves because that's all he wanted. So on the one hand, we should give him a taste because everyone is giving out Free samples. And I when I say we, I don't really literally mean me. I mean women. And then on the other hand, when they do do that, um, men are done. Okay, that's all I wanted. Goodbye. >> I disagree. And I have an episode about this as well, >> um, called Why Women Get Ghosted, >> okay, >> after sex. Because this is kind of women's greatest fear is that >> the guy just

wants to have sex and then Once he has it, he's gone. >> I mean, it happens. >> It does. >> Yeah. >> But it's not because of the sex, >> right? Okay. What is it because of? >> Because think about it. If if it's true that a guy only wants sex and you don't give it to him, okay, then there's not even the possibility of a relationship to that begins initiated, right? Mhm. >> If he only wants sex and you give him Consistent the consistently the best sex he's ever had, what's the problem? Now you

have access to the man. You can't do anything as a woman without access to the man. Now, if you think you can just stop there, you are mistaken. So, there's a couple of reasons why women get ghosted. One of them is they're just kind of boring or uninteresting or selfish or difficult. >> Mhm. >> In that case, the sex could be the best part of that relationship. Fair. >> So, blaming the sex is wrong. >> Okay. >> And women might need to look at what else they how else they might be showing up in a

way that could be off-putting. Because what guys do is whether they're aware of it or not, they kind of create this mental calculus. >> Okay, >> I talk about in the book how every Relationship progresses through three phases. Attraction, negotiation, and maintenance. Negotiation is often misunderstood. I probably should talk about it more. Um, it's not like in a boardroom. You're not going to sit down and explicitly negotiate the terms of the relationship. If you do that, it's kind of during the define the relationship talk, but that's like months down the road. If you try to

do that before you even hook up, it's going To feel really off-putting and weird for for both parties most likely. So, what is the negotiation? Well, I talk about that in the sexual marketplace, men are attempting to exchange resources for women's sexual opportunity. That's what they're bartering. And so, a lot of the courtship process is trying to figure out behaviorally how expensive are you? And that doesn't mean just the costs of taking you out on dates and buying you dinner and drinks. It's how long do you Make me wait? How much emotional labor do I

have to put into this? How charming do I have to be when I don't feel like it? How do I have to make you feel safe and and ready to go when all I really want to do is have sex with you on some level? So, if a woman is difficult, the man has already made a decision that he wants to sleep with her. And a lot I I counsel guys against this, but a lot of guys, they have this sunken cost and They're like, I'm going to keep doing it until I get laid because

that's going to kind of justify the expense that I've already poured into this woman. But then when it finally h if it finally happens, the guy basically measures it up. It's like, okay, I know what that 20 minutes is going to feel like because I felt I've been there. And so the next time he's interested in a sexual encounter, he's going to think of that woman and be like, "Okay, that was a good 20 minutes, But like it cost me $500. I had to wait for 2 weeks. She was really difficult. She interrogated me on

the date. Are you only here for sex? I had to reassure her. She was not funny." I mean, it was just sort of like that's why women get ghosted after sex is the guy just thinks it's not [ __ ] worth it. Like it's so expensive. It's so much work. And now that I've had the sex, I'm I'm thinking a little bit more clearly. And she's not Actually bringing anything else. It's not like she's trying to charm me or make me laugh or plan exciting dates for me. It's all about her in the early stages.

And women don't have a problem with that. But this is where it comes back around is guys are willing to do that before. But after they get it, if it especially if the woman is is is difficult or unpleasant or the sex is mediocre, it's not worth it. Now, there are some some real playboys and players Who just like plow through. >> Yeah. >> But they're a minority >> and it's very easy to spot them, too. It's very easy. >> What what's uh what are the ways women can spot it? >> In the same way

that kind of men can spot gold diggers, which is the female equivalent, is they tend to be really pushy about what they want. >> So, they're actually telling you what They want already. kind of. >> It's just whether you're listening to it or not. >> Yeah. You know, some women are, you know, it's not just if you get me an Uber and we go to a Michelin star restaurant and you buy me this, then I will do this in return. It's more like playing games with it. It's like that's I don't I don't really feel

like that kind of restaurant. Or, you know, I'm [snorts] a little busy tonight. It would Be really nice if someone would uh show up and with an Uber or I'm running late. you know, there's all this you have to read between the lines. There's also plausible deniability to everything, which helps the game. Same thing with [ __ ] boys. >> Um, if they're too unavailable with respect to planning the date, if the date is not even really a date, >> if it's just uh, you know, it's at 11:00 at night and it's around the corner

from His house. I mean, >> convenience. >> Well, sure. But that's also something that I I recommend that guys do to have it the dates be convenient for them. >> The more I hear about it, the more grateful I am we're out of the dating market. >> Oh, I always think that when I hear people tell me >> because it sounds like so much work, right? >> You're not out of it. He's saying [laughter] >> So, can I finish your thought? Like, how do women get ghosted? Also, another reason why women get ghosted is they

don't understand that after sex happens, the onus of the effort shifts to them >> to the to the women >> to the women. >> Um, interesting. Perhaps you've heard this said that men are the gatekeepers of commitment and women are the Gatekeepers of sex. Okay? >> But in modern dating where sex precedes commitment, >> then we just come up against the women's gatekeeping first. >> And this isn't even really about men and women. It's about who's like on the outside and who has the power to let them in. So women have the power to let

men in sexually. And sex happens before commitment these days. So the man's going to be making the effort. He's Running offense. She's running defense >> at first. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And sometimes women think because they get kind of anchored there that after sex happens that he's just going to keep trying or keep escalating. And it's like, no, sweetie, you have to make the effort. You don't just hand over sex to the every man that desires it from you. >> Why is that man going to hand over Commitment just because you want it? You

have to go get it. Now you are on offense. he's on defense and he can let you in or not. And so a lot of women don't try. They don't make the effort and they also often don't know what to do. They don't know how to secure a man's commitment. And so this is the the third part which is yeah richest creamiest milk opens the door because if you offer a more attractive less expensive sexual opportunity among your Interexual competition, a man will prefer you. And so he's gonna say, "Uh, this this woman is hotter

and she's less trouble, so I'm gonna go over here." That's a very hard thing for most men to resist. Okay? Now, that's why he opens the gate and says, "Okay, let's let's have some fun for a while." But if all the woman is is a playmate, yeah, she's just going to stay a playmate and potentially until he finds a a more attractive playmate who's Less trouble to play with, right? But you have to understand that without going through that phase, a woman doesn't really have access to that man. The sex is the Trojan horse because

it gets her access to the city. >> But she has to do something while she's inside the gates. She can't just sit in the horse, right? So the way to get a man's commitment is for a woman to integrate herself into the logistics and the economy of the city such that it Becomes difficult, inconvenient or painful to extricate her. >> Gosh, that's like a parasite >> kind of. [laughter] But like >> that is not how I think of women. But on some level, that's what I was saying earlier about how to find your place in

the world is you pay attention to what people need and you give it to them and then people like you and then you become necessary and you build relationships And you have a place in the world because you've discharged the need of other people. Expecting that you will have a place in that level of commitment without discharging the needs of other people is out of touch with reality. If your end goal, whether you're a man or a woman, is to find a meaningful relationship, where are you more likely to succeed? By being and playing the

game of sexual marketplace and the dating that you Describe, or by being a rebel and not surrendering to this mentality, but rather believing that not every person out there plays this game. Yeah, >> there are people out there who genuinely want to respect themselves in a way that feels a bit more traditional by today's terms. I would liken it to, you know, let's use today's music as an example. A lot of music is served to us by the algorithms. And me as a as a musician, I see that the quality of music is going Down.

It's one thing to go out there on Spotify and just press autoplay and let the algorithms define what I listen to and another to be a rebel and say, you know what, I don't like how music is losing its beauty. I will go out there and I'm going to go against these algorithms and that is how I'm going to find my match. >> Yeah. Where are we more likely to succeed as human beings? By playing the game and chasing that aspect of almost Mechanical approach to how things are done or by going outside and looking

for something deeper. >> Yeah, it's a great question. First of all, I would say that it's probably a false dichotomy that it's either playing the game or not playing the game. It's just that this is a different game. Traditional dating and mating is just a different game, but it still has its own rules and goals. >> Yep. >> So, when it's kind of a pet peeve when you didn't say this, but when some people say, "Well, I don't play games in with my relationships or it's like, no, that's just a strategy in the game of

getting what you want >> to look like you're not playing a game." >> Of course, because if it feels like there's nothing up my sleeve, won't you trust me more? Now whether or not people are duplicitous and manipulative with respect to that consciously is an open Question, but that's a strategy that elicits a certain emotional response predictably, which is why it's in the behavioral repertoire of people. Okay. Um, but to answer your question, I made an episode about this a while ago called dating off the beaten path. Each person has to look at him or

herself in the mirror and be very honest with the person they see there to see am I a conventional person. Most people are conventional people. They don't really Think for themselves. They don't really have the courage of their own convictions to stand up when their family or their friends or their employers disagree or disapprove of them. They kind of go along. If you're a conventional person, you have to date in conventional ways. >> If you're a follower, then these are the games of [clears throat] >> kind of and most people are going to be followers.

I don't like to use follower, But you're you're not wrong, but people have a negative connotation about no one likes to think of themselves as a follower, but most people kind of have to be >> by definition. >> Now, if you're a conventional person and you decide to leave your job and go to some surfing village in Bali, I I don't think you're going to have an easy time, right? But by the same token, if you're a very unconventional man, You're going to feel very out of place at a nightclub in downtown LA. >> Literally,

what happened to him? >> I I've done it. >> It's going to feel soulless and empty >> and horrible. Like, this could be one of the circles of hell. And if you just think that that's all there is, you'll probably end up miserable and alone or in some kind of suffocated relationship of concession. So if you're an unconventional person, you have to date Off the beaten path. You have to go where there are fewer people. Now on the on a certain point, this means statistically speaking, it can sound like there's a less likely chance that

you're going to find somebody. If I go to some remote fishing uh surfing village in Bali, there might only be like five other women there, you know, but those five other women might be really into the things that I'm into and living the way that I want to live. So Even though there's far fewer options, they might be much better options. >> And so I think that's the trade-off, which is a general recommendation is like go where you're valued. >> And people are valued differentially by different people in different places. If that's your goal, you

can pretty much find your place. >> Yeah. What trips people up is they they decide, I want to be valued by this person. >> Yeah. Understood. >> And so they put the person first. >> Yes. >> And that's a recipe for heartbreak and pain most likely. >> What I really liked about your book and everything that you teach is that you're basically showing people the reality of things. trying to >> you're trying to and whether we like it or not, we have our own, you know, opinions about how relationships or love Should be, people are

understanding, okay, this is how modern dating works. With that being said, there's two ways of it. This is how modern day dating works. Let me teach you, okay, these are the weapons you should pick up and level up in this video game of modern dating. And then there's the other route which is to teach people how to be more unconventional rather than to play that game. And some People don't realize that they can be they don't realize that maybe they can heal. They can connect to their hearts. They can choose a different reality. It's kind

of like people realizing they don't have to do the 9 to5 and then suddenly they're like, "Oh, actually I could pick that route." And I think that's where maybe we're a little bit different because for us it's like I want people to know that they can choose to opt out >> that they can choose to not play this game. But then your your advice is very important as well which is then don't pick that person >> who is playing the game. >> So I talk about that in the last chapter of the book about the

future of relationships. And I do think that there is a crisis in the sexual marketplace these days in the game of mating and dating. Like you just said a few moments ago, it's like I'm so glad I met you Before I had to deal with all of this. Yeah. That's generally how people who are already paired up look at what's going on in 2025. >> But so because old ways are falling apart and no one yet really knows what's going to emerge. We're in a very transitory period. It's a crisis, but it's also an opportunity.

It's like maybe the old ways are falling apart >> for a reason. >> For a reason. Like, and I don't think The genie goes back in the bottle. I don't think that we're going to go back to 1950s, that romanticized view of >> gender and marriage. But I also don't think we have to fall it has to fall apart entirely. We can be intentional about this both collectively and individually. We can pick the things that we want to save because they matter to us. And This is an alternative to the all or nothing thing because

marriage has become a very problematic construct I believe. It certainly doesn't have a very high success rate. Not one that would make >> any thinking person enthusiastic about the idea. And one of the reasons why I think that is is because we want it to be too many things. >> The fact that we want love as well, we want passionate sex. We want uh a legal Commitment that includes resource sharing that we want uh a big princess festival and a that costs 50 or $100,000. Um we want to be best friends. It's like all the

[ __ ] that you hear in modern wedding. It's like >> oh boy, it's so hard to find one person who can do even two of those things very well, let alone eight. Mhm. >> But so far it's like that's what marriage is. Take it or leave it. And a Lot of people are saying, "Well, [ __ ] it. I'm I'm leaving it." >> But I do think that we can be more intentional and conscious about, well, >> maybe we marriage doesn't have to be all those things for us. >> Maybe we can get some

of those needs met outside of our relationships, >> which is basically how humans have lived. They've lived in small communities or tribes for hundreds of thousands of years in extended kin Networks. >> Yeah. And so people had all kinds of soft relationships. >> What is your number one warning to people entering the dating place today? >> Uh woo. If I was just starting out >> Yeah. just starting out. >> Don't take it personally. >> Don't take it personally. And that it might it might take a while to find what you're looking for. And until then,

I mean, being rejected or or being broken up with, it can be so heartbreaking for people. And I've I've been heartbroken myself. And I think I've since learned to it's just it's not about who I am deep down inside, especially in the early stages of courtship. A lot of it has to do with numbers, especially if you're a guy or marketing, to be honest. But marketing is really important. Like look at all the effort that went into The look here and the branding, you know. So that's a big part of how people make decisions. You

know, I'm I'm drawing parallels between everything that you said. And one thing that stands out to me that I would want to define and understand for people watching and listening to us going back to my story of feeling out of place when I went into trying to be the guy who just have sex Casually. >> Sure. I feel like this could have been a defining moment in my life if I had the knowledge that you shared with me of, you know, maybe it takes practice. Maybe you need to try two, five more times and then

yeah, I got it. My my concern with this is that this was let's say about eight months before I met the love of my life, my wife. I am quite confident that if at That time I have followed that concept of going for women and just using my powers and so on. She would not be available for me when I met her >> not be available how >> she would not be interested. I feel like I spoke about myself as a quality man. I have no doubt that Sonia is a very high quality woman and

for her it would be actually quite an important aspect what my body count is. If I come into a relationship with maybe just one year of Having fun where I grab numbers to like I don't know whatever people do maybe 50 40 I do believe that I would miss out on having someone in my life because my mindset would already not be able to think oh this is different. So my question to you is when you go through this experience of like having sex with many people but somehow you find the one maybe it starts

feeling different. >> Sure. >> Are you able to actually spot that this is different and that you are supposed to do a different strategy here. It is okay if she holds her sex behind the door which Sonia did with me. She wasn't instantly available. She didn't play any of these these games and I pursued her. Would I be okay with her being unconventional if I already went down the route of having it easy? >> Um, I don't know. It's a hypothetical question, right? So, I mean, it seems Like it worked out for both of you.

I guess I'm asking like are people missing out on actually finding true love if they go for DC high numbers and being available whether you're a man or a woman too much. >> I made an episode on that touches on this topic called stop short or go long. >> And I do think that those are the two ways to have really deeply satisfying relationships. You either stop short or you go long. Stop short kind of means You maybe stereotypically you marry your high school crush. >> You know, it's like the first person you fell in

love with. You just say this is this is the love of my life and you get busy starting your family and you live your happy little life and you turn off social media and you you you resist all those temptations and you you just sort of put blinders around your relationship and be blissfully happy with each other. Now, objectively speaking, is the likelihood I mean, it's all it's a hypothetical question, but is the likelihood that each of those people are objectively the best person they could possibly have matched with statistically very low, right? But they're

not going to know that >> because comparison is a thief of joy, right? >> By the same, so that's one way of Working. And it sounds like, okay, you didn't you had a low body count. You didn't have a lot of experience with women. You didn't just date to [ __ ] And so on some level, even though you were 30 or 31, it's kind of a stop short situation. The alternative to that is to go long, which is, you know, the example I I give is, you know, when someone grows up in a small

town and then they go to a big City and then they leave their country and then they're like, "Wow, there's so many different places." They kind of get a little unrooted, maybe they get a little lost and they travel around. But if you've been to 200, 300 cities and then you find a place that's like, "Wow, this place has something to it. I like this place better than all the 300 cities I visited before. Statistically speaking, it's highly likely that that is a good place for you to live because The chances that there's still another

place out there that's better than the 300 places already. >> You done your due diligence. >> Yeah. >> And so it's very much a goodness of fit in comparison with the marketplace. It's kind of the real estate problem. If you've ever had to buy a house, realtors suggest that you look at 20 or 30 houses at a certain price point in a neighborhood without any commitment to Buying any of them. And then as soon as you find a house that's better than the best that you viewed previously, you buy that house because statistically speaking, there's

only like a 2% chance that there's a better option out there for you in that market. So, it's a way of kind of optimizing your choice. It's tricky though because unlike with real estate, you might be going around testing new countries and you're like, "Ah, maybe there's something better." And then you realize actually the best was like five countries ago and in this case she's a woman and she's gone. >> Yeah. You have to keep going forward. Sometimes that happens. People often don't appreciate what they have until it's gone. >> So you have to keep

moving forward at that point >> and hope it will happen again. So the reason why a lot of people suffer is they're kind of trapped in the middle. They've had a little exploration, but they probably didn't. They realize, oh, five countries ago, so you can't go back. So you kind of have to keep going. Once you cross a certain point, I think you have to go long. Sometimes even if people aren't really honest with themselves, they can take it out on their partners who don't even know what this is about or where this is coming

from. But on some level that man or that woman is being punished for not being The one that they really loved. Most people are not married to the people who they want the most or who love them the best. >> You mentioned heartbreak a bit earlier on. Sure. >> How have your personal past experiences affected your worldview right now? >> Oh yeah, considerably. I I call myself a romantic in recovery. I used to be a very romantic young man which because I was also a very isolated Young man. I went through a lot of difficulty

when I was young and I was kind of unconventional already. So it was very hard for me to make friends or to fit in. And in that I read a lot of literature and saw movies and I had this this very romantic view of women and and relationships. And you know it's sort of like the grand gesture form of romance where I'm going to stand in front of her window with the boom box. >> Did you do that? Really? >> No, but I did comparable things and and it doesn't it doesn't work, gentlemen. It just

>> What do you mean? It would totally work. It would work if you already liked the guy, but it wouldn't work if you didn't. You wouldn't think, "Wow, I never thought about Orion before, but the fact that he showed up uninvited and is blasting this music, I now love him." People want what they want, not what Wants them. >> Yes. >> And so, I don't think you can get someone to want you more by wanting them more. And I think that's something that romantics in particular miss out because if what I just said was true,

that most people don't end up with the people who love them the most, well, then why do they end up with the people they end up with? It's not about loving them the most. Maybe it's about other things. Okay. Um anyway, so this went on for a while and I had some learning experiences and this kind of came to a head in my early 30s and once again a relationship that I was in didn't work out and I ended it. It was uh not what I expected but it was probably the closest I had come

to that point to getting married and and moving down that pathway. And it was very difficult for me to get over that relationship. I was very emotionally invested. But I had to Come to I had to have that honest talk with the guy in the mirror. And I was like, Orion, if you knew what worked, if you knew what women wanted, if you knew how relationships functioned, you would [ __ ] have it by now. Like, you wouldn't have so much trouble. So, I had to come to the possibility that my fundamental assumptions about women

and relationships were wrong. And so I said, "Okay, [ __ ] it. I'm going to pretend Like I'm an alien, that I was just dropped onto this planet or, you know, a Renaissance scientist in the strict sense where like, I don't know, and I'm going to let the experiment, let the data teach me." And I tried some things that I it was hard for me not to have contempt prior to investigation. I was like, "Oh, that would never work." And it's like some I was often very surprised by how women would respond. >> Can you

give example? Um, well, one of Them was like leading or very quickly bringing sexual intent into an interaction. >> It worked for you. >> It definitely works. Absolutely. Because I was more of the I think on some level I was ashamed of my sexuality. >> I think a lot of straight guys are. >> Yeah. >> Um because nice guys, good boys don't think of women like that. They respect them. They want to take care of Them. They want to love and cherish them. And I also thought that that's fundamentally what women wanted because that's also

what they say they want when you ask them, but they don't end up with those guys. They don't [ __ ] those guys. And so that left me kind of scratching my head. >> And I talk about the part that women always leave out, which is that they do want those things just like they might want the grand gesture in the boom box, But they want those things from the men they're already attracted to. and they were attracted before he did those things. So her attraction isn't based on those [ __ ] things at all.

>> So what is it based on? And I started to think about that. So um I realized that women just aren't sugar and spice and everything nice, you know? And I started to just like listen to them and talk to them and see them more as human beings and not like on some Pedestal that was almost quasi divine because that's what I argue in others that romantic love is. It's sort of like a misplaced religion or spirituality. It's the um the instinct for devotion which humans have but devotion has traditionally been to God. Like why

devote yourself to a person? A person puts her pants on one leg at a time and and farts and gets sick and all those things. And guys, of course, we Know that we're gross and we do things that aren't that great either. >> So like, wh why would you devote a go why would you devote yourself to a god who farts? You know what I'm saying? I know that sounds kind of funny, but it's true. >> Maybe because you believe God is in everyone. >> Even the fart. >> Even the fart, it comes out. >>

You must be very advanced if you get That way. [laughter] But even if we approach that cognitively, people don't make decisions based on that. They don't think, well, one is just as beautiful and divine as another. So, I don't care if I stay in the flop house or the five-star hotel if I can afford it, right? You know, after a couple of years of dating and experimenting in this way and letting kind of the outcomes guide my process, I built this new kind of model. Before I Had a model that came before action in my

early 30s, I committed to action before building the model. And it was based on effectiveness. It was based on what worked. >> And first it was like, okay, how can I get a lot of dates? Because that's the first part of the funnel. Like, how can I just get women to spend time with me? Yeah. And I tried a bunch of things. I was like, okay, I kind of figured that out. And it's like, Okay, well, how can I get a woman to sleep with me? [laughter] >> So, I tried a bunch of things and

I kind of figured that out. And then it's like, okay, well, how do I get a woman to stay? Okay, so I tried some things, kind of figured that out. And it's like through trial and error, I kind of got really good at relationships. One of the things I say is I've been on more first dates than most people have been on dates. Like I dated like it was my job. I really, really, really wanted to solve this problem because it had been so painful for me up until that point. And I don't think I

have everything figured out, but I think I have a pretty good idea about how it works. Yeah. and I have very satisfying relationships. >> So, your life became simpler after 30. >> It's certainly been more satisfying. >> I've had the best relationships of my life from 30 on for sure. And I think I Was a very complex person. And I do think that it's I'm still probably a little bit complicated, but uh it's good to not be overly complex. It's it's good to work towards simplicity. Simplicity is a sign of mastery actually. >> It's funny

because you say that men's attractiveness goes up. Their value goes up with age and then for women >> 30s, right? >> For women it goes down. So in your game In like 20 years he's some hunk and my tits are touching the floor. [laughter] So like what the [ __ ] am I supposed to do? It's it's a it's a question that women are concerned about. It's one of the arguments that they have towards the lifetime commitment of marriage and the financial you know responsibilities there is women are afraid that the man's going to leave

her for the secretary you know or something along those lines. And that does happen. I mean, men do say That I want to, you know, I've devoted myself to this woman and building this family and what it took to be successful and I've served all these people and now what about me? And I'd like to also enjoy my life as well. And we call that a midlife crisis. And the woman is hurt and says that he's a selfless cat who's just chasing chasing skirt. But like there might be more to that. It could be that

this man has 30 or 40 years of unmet and unexpressed need that suddenly He's like I'm going to die. Maybe the point of my life is not simply to be a source of value to other people >> to not just be a sacrifice potentially. >> So but to answer your question is that women have to do something different and again you have access. So >> suppose I'm in your game and I'm playing this very same game. >> Yeah. >> What do I do? Again, we want what we don't yet have. And one of the really

Tragic things about human relationships is you are relating to me because you think on some level that I can give you what you want. If I don't give you what you want, you'll probably go find somebody else who will >> over a long enough timeline. >> Makes sense. >> Depends on what the thing is. Depends on what the thing is. How important is it to me? >> Okay. >> Right. Not all my needs can always be met, for example. >> Okay, fair enough. >> Yeah. >> But certainly people don't persist in situations where they feel

like they're not getting anything that they want. Let's put it that way. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> And so they're going to go where they seem >> it seems like they can get more of what they want and potentially less of what they don't. >> So if if you see that I have what you want and I don't give it to you, you're going to probably leave. However, if I say, "Okay, I'll give it to you." you're going to be like, "Okay, I'll stay." But in the act of giving it to you, you now need

me less. And that's the tragic thing about human relationships is you need me less because I gave you what you Wanted. Let's say you want to get married to have kids. And so you marry a woman because she's kind, she has a maternal instinct, she's great with children. Okay. Well, you had three kids. They're all in college. You're empty nesters now. on your late 50s, early 60s. The way that people are living, they could live another 20 or 30 years. That's a long time. Now, what are we just going to coast on Gratitude for having

received what we wanted decades ago? It would be nice if people could survive on gratitude, but that's not how I see people operate for better or for worse. And so, that woman on some level becomes less valuable to that man as a consequence of giving that man what he wanted. i.e. a mother for his children >> and if she doesn't give him what he wants he also >> he would have chosen somebody else. So She got 18 or 20 years but if she then doesn't find another need of his to satisfy and discharge then he's

just going to be there kind of out of >> potentially obligation >> which sucks. >> I mean it sucks actually for both people. No, it's not a nice place to be if you're like I know he's with me because he, >> you know, just wants to be kind of kind, But he doesn't really want to be here. I I'd much rather >> It doesn't seem very kind, does it? >> No. No. You don't even But it's not good for either. >> Yeah. It's like the song I want you to want me. >> That's why it's

a frustrating thing. It's like you're talking to a girl, where do you want to go to eat? Hey, you want to go to Chili's? Well, if that's where you want to go, you know, she's Like the guy's just thinking, just [ __ ] tell me where they want to go so I can give it to you. But she's like, I want you to want to give it to me. And the guy's like, "Oh my god, I don't know how to [laughter] show." >> No, it's true. >> It's true. It happens. You know, >> it happens.

>> Hormones, cycles, all these things. >> There's a lot of things that play a part To this. But [laughter] so your answer is to make sure that at any given point in time in a relationship to basically not get complacent to make sure that you're providing enough value to your partner and to be very attuned that with with their needs basically. >> Yes. Be the most attractive version of yourself. That's kind of the first part. And to satisfy an unmet need in the other person. Now, this can be tricky, Though. >> Yeah. When you're older,

what do I do with the first part? >> Well, you know, you >> you can still be attracted. >> You limit the damage. >> What? You you get a boob job and >> maybe some women do. A lot of women do. >> And what if you don't want to do that because you don't want to play that game? >> Well, people can do whatever they want, But they can't dictate the consequences of doing whatever they want, >> which is why people do things they don't really want to do every day. people get up to go

to their jobs that they don't really want to do >> because they don't want to deal with the consequences of not doing it. So like that's just dealing with people. I don't I just made my piece with that a long time ago. >> Yeah. But this is this is what's Interesting especially because >> the most attractive men because we were I alluded to this earlier >> are the ones that the vast majority of women are gunning for. Right. And I had a I had an ex her mother would say to her, "There's nothing more dangerous

than a man who has everything." And she's right. >> Yeah. >> But those are the men that women want. Those are the most dangerous men. Because if he already has everything, what do you why does he need you? At best, you can be a playmate. >> And most women don't want to just be a playmate. Some people are happy to be that and they can be taken care of and have a very comfortable life that way. But the men that women really want don't have a lot of needs. Okay. So what do you do if

The maintenance or the perpetuation of a relationship is based on the dischargement of need? Sometimes you have to create needs in the other person. This sounds really insidious. >> Yeah, it does. >> It sounds a little game that people are playing. You got to think about it like from a like a marketing perspective. So there is absolutely no need for Coca-Cola. There is no need on planet Earth for a sugary carbonated soda Beverage. >> And yet it sells billions of units every year. >> Why? Because they invented a need that didn't previously exist. And now

they're celebrated and successful and desired by billions of people. Now, what's interesting is how does Coca-Cola go about doing that? If you look at all advertising, the vast majority of advertising does not sell what it's selling. It does not sell what It's selling. Coke does not sell a carbonated sugar beverage. It sells joy and togetherness >> and Christmas. >> Christmas. >> Yeah. >> Sells energy. >> And like old school Christmas that's actually divorced from the materialism. It's about the joy that you used to experience when you believed in Santa. Now, when it comes to a

specific person, Then you you really have to know that person and you have to know what his desires are and what is it that he needs because his needs in his 20s are going to be different from his needs in his 60s. >> Yeah. >> That's why I think it's always kind of strange when people say, especially young people, I want to find someone to grow old together. You know, I want just to sit in the rocking chairs and hold Hands. It's like there's a long time between here and then. Like, you might not ever

get there. So that's on some level why it's rational to prioritize shorter term needs and goals, but you have to like re-update that every 7 to 10 years. >> Talking to you is so interesting because you not only are very knowledgeable and experienced within the field, but you also live the things that you believe in and you have Your personal experiences. So we could talk for like at least an hour more, but unfortunately we're out of time. We saw out of time that we haven't even addressed your mystery item that you have to >> We

have to do that though. So, you brought us a mystery item. >> Yeah, it was hard for me to choose actually. Yeah, I don't have a lot of like stuff around my house. So, my mystery item is >> ta >> a chair. Oh, wow. A >> interesting. >> Some of my fans might recognize this chair. I told this story when I was on the minimalist podcast last time I was on, but I didn't bring the actual chair. So here is the chair. >> We get an exclusive look. >> Yeah. So um my mother, she's passed

away. She was a very among other things creative and eccentric person. She was For some time an interior decorator which I thought was very ironic because I think that she had terrible style. Like I hated the way that she decorated our house. Among other things, she developed this kind of habit or collection of chairs. This is one of them. [laughter] >> Okay, >> there were dozens, if not over a hundred of these chairs littered around the house. And this one is the Monae chair. This is painted like the Monae waterlies, but there was a Picasso

chair and there was a >> a Japanese chair and an African chair. I was like, "Oh, they just seemed so kitschy." I really didn't understand the chairs, but that was my mom's thing. So, fast forward um many many many years later and my mother got into a pretty tricky situation and without getting into kind of the details of that, her house was broken into and Burglarized. Like, well, burglarized is kind of too nice of a word. It was just like completely destroyed. Everything that could be breakable was broken. Every book had pages torn out of

it. Her clothes were cut up with scissors. There was spray paint on the walls. They had plugged up the sinks and filled the house with 3 or 4 inches of water filled with all this debris which in the Las Vegas heat just percolated and became this like moldy marsh. And I remember Like going into this house at this point and it was the most disrespectful thing I've ever seen people do to another human being. And it was just and everything of value had been had been stolen at this point. So I I there's nothing left.

I didn't have any kind of keepsakes or uh anything valuable photog nothing. It was all destroyed. However, as I was piecing around and poking around the remains, I found lo and behold The [ __ ] chair. The Monae chair is for some reason the only thing that survived and it was buried under a bunch of debris. And so now I'm like strangely bound to this chair because it's like the only thing that I have that is from my mother >> and I still think it's kitschy as hell. I still think it's ugly, but I can't

get rid of it. It's it's now very precious and special to me simply because it's All that I have left. So it's interesting how our emotional relationships with things change as a consequence of how our life progresses. So >> that's the that's the item and that's the story that I was >> going to tell. >> I'm so sorry. >> Yeah. >> Ah yes. Well, it was quite a roller coaster that uh That that time. But, uh, all's well that ends well because for in some like God [snorts] works in mysterious ways type of a thing.

Uh, I'm not saying that you should do this, but if anybody ever did want to commit insurance fraud, the way to do that is through flood. If you burn something, you have no record of anything that was destroyed. But when it's flooded, everything is still there, but it's just unusable. So, We were able to get money from the insurance company that we might not otherwise have gotten and that paid for her medical care for the rest of her life. >> Wow. >> Which we might not otherwise have been able to pay for. So, in this

weird twist of fate, like this was a very good thing that happened to her. >> Okay. >> So, we'll leave it on a higher >> that ends well >> on a on an on a higher note and on an advice. >> Yeah. in some ways [laughter] a bit illegal but we can close on that. You have you have given so much value to our listeners and viewers today. So thank you so much for your presence. >> This was great. You guys were wonderful. >> I just I just love this. We can do it again sometime.

in 20 years we meet again and and verify all this Information. >> Yeah, okay now I need to check my strategies and he's going to check like oh my god [laughter] let me find my >> we should do updates right you every few years we meet again and talk about how your beliefs and our beliefs overlap as we progress with amazing we just signed a contract verbal [laughter] [music]