Palestine Talks | In conversation with Rabbi Shapiro (Part 2)

[Music] it gets very counterintuitive because if I understand you correctly Zionism is essentially a turning away from Judaism yet Israel is constantly employing or using their religious symbology of Judaism and so why would Zionism if it has this contempt or um even hatred for as you were describing earlier for Judaism why is it at the same time seemingly embracing this symbology as something that is very proud of it it seems like a mismatch three things thing number one the Evangelical C Christians the Evangelical Christians are Israel's biggest supporters and they're much more powerful and much

more numerous than the Jewish zionists when you hear nanyu speak about biblical exegesis some interpretation of the Bible from experience I can tell you he's talking about Christian Evangelical interpretations and not Jewish ones that's one number two there are Jewish Orthodox Jewish zionists and these guys have developed a mixed up philosophy a mixed up ideology where they Incorporated Jewish nationalism into their religion settlers are the primary example we consider them regular normal Orthodox Jews we consider them Idol worshippers uh Zionism is idol worship because it phys physicalized a spiritual concept um the actual Jewish identity

it spiritualized the whole Jewish religion uh they are like the olden day idol worship ERS in the days of the Bible that were religious Jews but on the side worshiped Idols as well that's the settlers as far as we're concerned so that's the second thing guys like benir guys like smotrich the settler rabbis that that's their thing third thing is that it's just an I question of symbolism it it's a question of um you know like they say that they no atheists in a foxhole it's a just a way to G the troops imagine Donald

Trump for example like the least religious person in the whole uh Milky Way galaxy right imagine one day I know America would be at War and I know there would be Muslims against Christians or something and he would start quoting the Bible and Jesus and we would all know that it's a joke but it would have value in the sense that the trumpies his followers who are religious let's say evangelicals or whatever they would actually say whoa Donald Trump is quoting the Bible you know this is inspiring to us and Netanyahu is no more religious

than Donald Trump and he's no and you know by the way Donald uh Netanyahu has a daughter who's religious an orthodox Jew he's ashamed of her okay yeah I know a rabbi that uh wrote an article about it um but Donald Trump has a daughter who's Jewish Ivanka I don't think he's ashamed of her maybe she's ashamed of him but I don't think I never heard that vice versa in any case Netanyahu is no more religious than Donald Trump and him quoting that it's just because he's in an environment where quoting religious symbolism um is

Meaningful the whole idea of Zionism was to take the Jewish symbols and make them into Political tools to take the Holy Land itself and make it into a political tool so if they say Israel is the Jewish homeland right they're using Israel uh the Holy Land Jerusalem and the zionists came to Jerusalem when the zionists started Israel they weren't interested in Jerusalem Jerusalem was a place of Orthodox Jews but as Zionism the Zionist indoctrination succeeded increasingly in breeding these mixed breed Jews which are half Idol worshippers half zionists half Orthodox Jews there became an increasing

connection between these Jewish symbols and the cooperation of uh Israeli citizens with people that invoke those symbols and that's why natany is doing it he has no idea even he has no idea what he's talking about he doesn't really mean it he doesn't believe in it it's just you know something he does kind of like a non-religious you know in the olden days even the non-religious Vikings would would talk about the name of Odin you know but it doesn't really mean anything that's that's that's just the way Israel is working and it is very confusing

and it's designs to be confusing it's designed to be very confusing now there actually were zionists at the early days of Zionism that said well oh hey if Israel if being a Jewish is become going to become a nationality we can indeed have Jews who are Christians and the holy sepulture will be guarded by Jews who are Christians and the Omar Masque will be Ed by Jews who are Muslims but others disagreed with that now the zionists were creating some fantasy and they could make it anything they wanted they made it whatever worked whatever got

people's Bard in even buying even if it didn't make any sense and today we have a Haj pod of unintelligible Babel that they call Zionist philosophy now here's more first there's the an there's the um idea that if you are not Jewish Israel is not your state which means that Israel can never be the state of its citizens it's the state of the Jews so as I was saying how they look at themselves they look at the Jewish people the way turk turkey looks at the Turkish citizens they don't think that they're discriminating against non-jews

any more than turkey would think they're discriminating against non-turks non-citizens because in America in France um in Germany citizenship and uh nationality is together that're together not in Israel now listen to this about 10 years ago there was a Supreme Court case in Israel some guys uh wanted to make an Israeli nationality they petitioned the court because they said having a Jewish nationality and a Jewish state is discriminatory against Israeli citizens that are not Jewish and the court said no we do not want to make an Israeli nationality so well if we make an nationality

and keep the Jewish nationality then you can only have one nationality so are the Israeli Jews Israeli or Jewish so you're talking about making an Israeli nationality and getting rid of the Jewish nationality which will be great that's the truth but they said first of all you know let me read it to you okay this from the Israel democracy Institute a think tank in Israel they're describing the the courts ruling if na the nationality of Jewish citizens of Israel were to be classified as Israeli the implication would be that Judaism is not a nationality for

them but solely a religion this idea is anti antithetical to the fundamental doctrine of Zionism and its main thinkers from Herzel to benan who saw Zionism as the national movement of the Jewish people so here you have Zionism stating that we need to have an Israeli National a Jewish nationality because that's Zionism and I know the court didn't say that's why Jews looked at themselves throughout history they did not Israel's probably greatest political scientist schlom ainer in his book The Making of modern Zionism uh points out that gretz the historian was the first first one

or he was more responsible than anybody else for making the Jews think of themselves as a nationality but that's Zionism it's not Jewish identity it's a new fangled identity for the Jews third if the nationality of the Jewish Israelis is defined as Israeli rather than Jewish then the national Bond We Believe binds together Jews in Israel and Jews in the diaspora will be severed the court dealt with this last Point extensively it adopted the position that one of Israel's essential characteristics as a quote unquote Jewish state is its responsibility for the fate of the entire

Jewish people including Jews of the diaspora the responsibility of state of is of the state of Israel for World jury is an important expression of the fact that Israel is not an ordinary Democratic state but also a Jewish State though we may be divided by geography and citizenship Israeli and American Jews and their brothers and sisters around the world are members of One Nation so now we have clearly somebody submitted that a Jewish nationality this whole idea that Israel is not this country of its citizens but the country of this Jewish nationality is discriminatory and

the the answer is well yes that but that's what Zionism wants a country for the Jews you either have Zionism or you have democracy and here by the way by the way there is no country in the world like this I cannot overemphasize this there is no other country in the world like this and if somebody understands this about Israel and about Zionism they'll understand a lot of things so for example I'm sure you've heard many times the talking point uh that well there's only one Jewish State and I don't know 25 Arab states or

25 Muslim states but I have news for you there is not a single Arab state in the world that's an Arab state in the sense that Israel claims to be a Jewish one because there's no Arab state that claims to be the nation state of all Arabs Saudi Arabia is the state of the Saudi Arabians but it does not claim to be the state of all Arabs all over the world there's no muslim state that claims to be the state of all Muslims all over the world there's only one country that claims to be my

actually there are two two countries that claim to be my state United States of America because I carry their passport and I am the I am a citizen of America and Israel because I'm Jewish and they unilaterally decided that they are my country there was no other country in the world like Israel so somebody tells you well you need a Jewish State the Holocaust and all these things no excuse that Israel has no util utility value that Israel claims whether it's true or not no practical purpose that Israel claims is excuse or justifies Israel claiming

that they are the state of all Jews all over the world as opposed to the state of their citizens the fact that Israel claims to be my state that it demands my loyalty there was no excuse for that now when I tell this to people they say you know you're right uh Italy doesn't demand the Loyalty or doesn't claim any uh status over the italian-americans why should my answer but I'm saying no that's that's not nearly the problem over here if I would be Israeli American then the analogy to Italy to the italian-americans would be

a good analogy but I'm not an Israeli American my family's from Poland it's it's not that well yes it's like Italy doesn't claim any uh status over italian-americans it's that Italy doesn't claim any uh status over the Chinese Americans Israel arbitrarily decided that they are the country of the Jews who made them the spokesman for the Jews nobody they just unilaterally declared themselves such they declared themselves the spokesman of the Jews the speakers of the Jews the country of the Jews the nation state of the Jews their prime ministers the prime minister of the Jews

and this is Zionism and if you want to get rid of the imbalance in Israel if you want to make Israel a normal country like all other countries you need to get rid of this law this idea of Zionism that Israel is the state of the Jews there are many people um who claim to be anti-zionist but they're not really anti-zionist they're really Pro Palestinian and I'll I'll tell you who those people are let's assume theoretically that there would be a two-state solution and let's assume theoretically the Palestinians and the Israelis would both be happy

with it I know it's not happening but in theory and let's assume even that the Palestinians get 90% % of the land and Israel ends up with 10% of the negative desert but Israel's happy are these anti zionists now happy sure why not well I'm not happy because nothing changed about Israel in my theoretical scenario Israel still claims to be the state of the Jews Israel claims to be not the state of its citizens there are there will still be Muslims or Christians or Buddhists or whatever in Israel Israel is not their state if you're

anti-zionist then you want Israel to be the state of its citizens not the state of the Jews because that's what Zionism is in a nutshell the Israel's own Supreme Court said it must be there that way only because Zionism says so because Israel claims to be the state of the Jews that you want to fight Zionism now I'll give you a Way Forward I'm wondering how this ties into a really interesting observation made on Katie Hal's show who we actually just had the sure interviewing here a moment ago Katie helper um so uh there's an

issue you take now I have to get this right because there's so many qualifications uh there is an issue you believe with Jews who are denouncing Israel while partaking within Pro Palestinian solidarity movements um and what is the all the exactly there the reason why Israel isn't a one-state solution already right is because Israel is the state of the Jews and not the state of the Israelis if Israel would be the state of the Israelis like all other normal countries then you'd have Palestinian Israelis you'd have American Israelis you'd have I know Israeli Israelis and

they one person one vote but that's not what Israel wants to be because that's when not that's what Zionism says it shouldn't be without Zionism Israel is a state of the Israelis with Zionism Israel state of the Jews when Israel says they're my country in the same breath the other side of the coin says it's not the country of the non-jews even if they're in Israel certainly if they're in territories therefore if you want to negate Zionism and that's really the problem over here you see this is the issue if Israel would be a normal

country like Canada Australia or America we wouldn't have these issues it's because of the ideology of Zionism okay therefore Z since Zionism means that Israel is the country of the Jews any reinforcement or strengthening of that idea is strengthening Zionism and strengthening the problem I'm talking about the root cause of the problem you know Israel bombing Gaza you want them to stop bombing Gaza you can tell them stop bombing Gaza I got that so I can tell America don't bomb Afghanistan Israeli citizens can tell them stop bombing Gaza anybody in the world can tell America

to stop bombing Afghanistan let's say right but if somebody comes and says well no an I'm an American and I'm Jewish and because I'm Jewish therefore I have special standing to tell Israel what to do even a Jewish guy says Israel is doing something bad tell me what do you mean even a Jewish guy if you don't like a particular act that Israel is doing you could be a Zionist and say you know I don't want I'm a Zionist I believe Israel is the state of the Jews because that's what Zionism means and I don't

want Israel to bomb Gaza I want to ceasefire those are the leftwing zionists but if you want to fight Zionism if you want to negate Zionism not just make a ceasefire make peace you want to negate Zionism if you want Israel to be a country like all other countries which I wish it would be by the way this is much a fantasy as a two-state solution because Israel designist would never do this so it's not even on the table I'm talking theoretically I would love Israel to be like the United States of America anybody that

comes and says because I'm Jewish therefore I have special standing and I'm using my special standing as a Jew to tell Israel what to do excuse me you're an American you're Jewish by religion or are you Jewish by nationality and if if you're Jewish by nationality is Israel the the state of the Jewish Nation if you agree with that then you're in you're a Zionist well yeah this what I'm trying to understand so is there like a subtext or an implication that when a person does that they're saying that Israel does represent the Jewish exactly

because if you say look I say that all Jews should object to Israel's claiming to be the state of the Jews I say all the time I've done been doing it for decades Israel is no more connected to the Jews than China is that means not merely that Israel doesn't speak for the Jews you know people say not in my name not that this particular act that you're doing should not be done in my name even though you're the Jewish State wrong no Israel acting in the name of the Jews even when they're doing something

good is like China is saying they're acting in the name of the Jews if we want to to end Zionism or everybody has to understand Jews and non-jews that Israel is the state of the Israelis not the state of the Jews Israel must become the state of the Israelis not the state of the Jews any implication any reinforcement any strengthening of the idea the subtext as you're calling it that Israel is the state of the Jews enforce reinforces Zionism and in the long run doesn't serve this the purpose of Peace ceasefire yes it may but

and the truth is that Jews in America have an exaggerated sense of their importance to or their impact on Israeli policy but never mind that for now if you really want to negate Zionism you must negate this one factor Israel must become the state of the Israelis and stop claiming to be the state of the Jews if all Jews would get up and say I have nothing to do with Israel I'm an American you you want to act for the Palestinians as an American you can be on anybody's side you want you're an American taxpayer

America is is supporting Israel I'm not talking about that politics you can be on whatever side you want but if somebody invokes their standing as a Jew to say look even a Jew is against Israel then that even a Jew only makes sense if you agree that Israel represents the Jews just this particular thing you say no don't don't represent me by doing that so that enforces Zionism and Israel loves when Jews these leftwing Zionist Israel loves it because it means that there's a connection between Israel and the Jews and Israel's own Supreme Court this

is Zionism what Jews must do is to say and and by the way this will help peace more than anything else Israel you want to Annex the territories that you're occupying you on one person one state there is no reason why you should need a specifically a Jewish majority uh you're worried about security let's talk about it let's have a discussion give me studies let's put the energy that is used to discuss one state two State red state blue state which is going nowhere and figure out how to make to get rid of one law

that Israel has this law that Israel is the state of the Jews as opposed to the state of its citizens you know people say all the time well you could be anti- Zionist Israel has a right to exist but you could still you don't have a right to say Israel shouldn't exist although you can uh criticize Israel policy no problem I'm going to criticize Israel policy one policy you're the state of the Jews as opposed to the state of the citizens change that one policy and everything's over the problem with Israel is not that it

shouldn't exist the problem is it does not exist now meaning not as a nationality Israel exists as a country but it's only a doing business name it's a DBA Jewish the state of the Jews DBA Israel it has citizens but as opposed to United States of America Israel has is not a nationality it has no Israeli nationality as opposed to France there is no Israeli nationality let Israel exist like every other country does right now there's the Jewish state that exists there's this front called Israel you don't like the name you want to call it

I don't care what you call it let the citizens decide what what to call it if you don't like the name Israel call it Herzel Stan I always say or whatever you want call it Charlie I don't care but what needs to done is Israel needs to become a normal country like all other countries and the way to do it is by changing this one policy of Israel and the truth is if people would know about this policy people would understand what Zionism is and what Israel claims there'll be a lot less zionists out there

you know people say well so many Jews are Zionist but I've asked Jews you you you're a Zionist yeah you believe in Israel as the Jewish State yeah do you know what a Jewish State means it has a majority Jews well America has majority Christians is it a Christian State let me tell you what a Jewish State means it's not run according to Jewish law it's not run according to the talud it's run on contrary to all Jewish laws Israel's run according to more Roman Catholic laws uh more British laws than it is to American

law to Jewish laws not run according to Judaism at all a je Israel being the Jewish State means and I'm talking to a Jew now Israel is your country and not America Israel is your nation state nanyu is your prime minister you don't have a right to vote see if you're a citizen but not a national of Israel you have a right to vote if you're a Jewish National but you're not a citizen you have no right to vote you're a Jewish you have no right to vote but Israel represents you do you think Israel

is your country not America you believe that Japan is to the Japanese which is is to the Jews that America is to the Americans what Israel is to the Jewish Americans America is to the non-jewish Americans what Israel is to the Jewish Americans no I wouldn't believe that then you're an anti-zionist Israel's own Supreme Court said that one of the uh Mainstay of Zionism and it really is the main state of Zionism is that Israel is the state of the Jews as opposed to the state of its citizens any I agree all Jews should say

not in our name but not merely this particular act I don't like you to do this in my name you you should do something else in my name rather we should say you're like China claiming to be the Jewish State we have nothing to do with you you're not the state of the Jews American Jews are the state of America when the Nazis came to the Moroccans and and told them to give them Morocco's Jews so the head of Morocco said we don't have any Jews here we only have Moroccans we are Americans by nationality

I'm polish whatever however you are originally um American nationality now and I'm Jewish by religion that's it you want to be Jewish by bagels and locks that's your Judaism doesn't make sense to me but fine but Israel has nothing to do with the Jews the Jews are not a nationality and even if they would be Israel is not their country feel almost begs the question is Israel actually oppressing Jewish people yes and if so do you see any commonalities between that and how it oppresses the Palestinian people and this is kind of what I was

getting at at the beginning of the discussion whether you see maybe a silver lining there um namely uh the potential for new forms of allyship i as a matter of policy look I obviously anybody who sees those pictures coming out of Gaza if he has human blood cells in him right you you you you can't be indifferent to it I mean it's just it keeps you up at night it's it no question about it but I will not do anything that promotes Zionism the Palestinians are suffering no question about it so are the weager Muslims

tell me why I now yes anybody interested in human rights issues will be interested in what's going on in Israel and Palestine and with China and the weager Muslims and Indian Kashmir but I as an American by national it of Polish Descent of the Jewish religion why would I be more allied with any of these particular groups now again yeah Israel's doing it in your name well excuse me Israel says they're doing it in my name to me that's a joke it's like China doing it my I will not cooperate and I will not strengthen

and it doesn't do the Palestinians any favors honestly in my view for Jews to do that I will gladly say Israel is not the Jewish State you're doing things you claim in the name of the Jews you're lying you don't you have no standing to do that uh you claim to be the state of the Jews no you claim to be acting uh for the sake of the Jews no don't do me your favors don't do me any favors nothing Israel is China any excuse that Israel has for doing whatever they do uh by invoking

their jewishness I denounce that absolutely but for me to say this particular human rights issue it's not indifference to this issue it's saying that I have no reason to be more involved in this issue than any other human rights issue tell me this is worse now okay got it last year something else was worse that's not the point right the point is it's counterproductive really to the cause for people to perceive even that Jews are represented by Israel and this Ally ship yes it's true that they persecute Jews they persecute Orthodox Jews they don't like

us they want us to disappear off the face of the Earth or they want to make us into zionists they used to want us to disappear off the face of the Earth more now they want us to become zionists because they see it's it's possible to to do that um I don't think I would be doing the Palestinians any favor by strengthening Zionism just because they have an ally that's Jewish I wish the Palestinian people would understand this I you know they're very happy when Jews Orthodox non-orthodox are on their side and I mentioned to

you earlier today that I saw a interview he did with a very articulate uh Muslim uh who was saying that even Jews now are on are against Israel if I had an opportunity to speak to this this Muslim I would tell him when you say even Jews that presupposes that by default Jews should be supporting Israel why well Israel is the state of the Jews just like by default Americans would be supporting America but it's wrong that that's Zionism if you say that by default Jews should be supporting Israel and it's remarkable that they're not

that means that you've you you're Zionist influenced it's so it's almost like there's an aspect of identity politics there yes I call it identity theft yeah identity theft identity theft almost reaches a level of superstition it's like yes the moment you say that or the expectation is the moment that you say I'm Jewish it must mean that he support Israel well of course if you say you're Turkish that means you must support turkey by defa not everybody does if you say you're American you support America remember Israel is to the Jews what America is to

the Americans that's Zionism and if you think that by default Jews should support Israel then by default you're thinking that Israel is the state of the Jews the way Americans would support America that is what this Muslim guy is thinking in his head and if I had an opportunity to explain to them that I understand that they're looking for allies and I understand that they're looking you know I call it the Jane Fonda effect you've heard this from me they're looking for their Jane fondas but Jane Fonda was an American who was uh siding with

the North Vietnamese you want Israelis I'm looking for ivp Israeli voice for peace that's what you should look for there were Jewish an there were excuse me Israeli anti-zionist organization there was matzen means Compass a communist organization a guy AA or who was absolutely not religious but he wrote books explaining this very well um if the Palestinians are looking for allies let them look for Israelis Israeli allies a Jewish guy in America as an ally yeah they got an extra Ally but the price they paid for that Ally is that they're now supporting Zionism in

the long run they're promoting Zionism in the long run so yeah if you're looking for a ceasefire fine you you can be a Zionist and want to seize fire and you're looking for leftwing zionists cuz these are the leftwing Zionist that's that's the way they are fine but if you looking to end Zionism which is toxic for Israelis for Jews for Palestinians Zionism helps nobody and it hurts every Zionism is bad ideology I wish all the Israelis and Palestinians long life and health and peace and I'll do whatever I can but I do not believe

in my my bottom from the bottom of my heart I have studied this for decades and I can bet a lot of money and I believe in my heart of hearts that strengthening Zionism is not going to bring peace and by Jews invoking their status as Jews to say by default Jews should support Israel but here I'm not in this particular thing I'm not long-term peace is not going to happen that's Zionism that means Israel's a state of the Jews that means it's not the state of the non-jews even citizens if it's not the state

of the non-jews you need a Jewish majority if you need a Jewish majority you need to take steps to guarantee a Jewish majority and that's why Israel is not the same as all other countries in the worldi this has been such a multi-layered thought-provoking discussion quite honestly there's a lot I'm going to thinking about after it for days at least um but I'm wondering before we wrap up if there's any final thoughts or observations that You' like to share yeah I think that people need to learn about Zionism about Israel uh there are books out

there akor is you can actually download his stuff uh the unwish State I think it's called in some other title that escapes me es escapes me for a second um there are books out there that explain this and we need to understand that Israel doesn't represent the Jews that understanding the more people understand that the closer we are uh to peace I'm not King Solomon and I can't solve all the world's problems but I do know that in reinforcing Zionism just makes us further away from peace and negating Zionism the idea that Israel doesn't represent

the Jews that every country is the should be the country of its citizens is is the is the path to peace thank you again thank you for having me