Leif Babin - The Navy SEALs Most Renowned Unit: Task Unit Bruiser | SRS #162

[Music] Leif Babin welcome to the show man thanks for having Sean it's an honor to have you here it's honor is and um man we've got history together we went through buds together I'm sure we'll get into some of that but um man I just I've been following you for a long time man and and what you're doing and um you're just putting out amazing stuff and I think you're a great example for For veterans and and seals coming out of the teams and and anybody coming out of the military you know it's it's we

both know it's it's a it's a big struggle for a lot of people and um to have you know good examples to follow and and and good leaders like yourself um it's just it's really cool man what you what you've accomplished and what you've done after the teams and and uh I just I want to commend you for that thank you Sean that means a ton to me that means so much Coming from you and I keep I'm so proud of you and your success and and the the powerful voice that you have been for

so many great stories um and and how you've represented um you know as as a teammate how you represent the sealed teams how you represent the veteran Community um and it's uh it's great to to reconnect it's been way too long and and uh man I was thinking about all the history that uh that we had through our time together in Buds and and what a great time that Was like what what an incredible time um and uh and and our class and what people went on to do and and the combat that that you

saw and so many others saw and and we're a part of uh but just can't uh can't tell you how excited I am to be here with you and uh I'm I'm proud of you and all that you're doing and and honor to call your friend thank you brother feelings are definitely mutual and and uh like I said I've been been looking forward to this for a long time So but um everybody starts off with an introduction here so let me get to yours Leif Babin former US Navy SEAL officer served 13 years in the

Navy nine of which were in the SEAL Teams several deployments to Iraq with the infamous task unit Bruiser uh you are the co-author of the New York Times bestseller extreme ownership the number one New York Times bestseller extreme ownership how US Navy Seals LED and wi And the number one National bestseller besteller the dichotomy of leadership with jao you are the co-founder of echelon front and currently serving as president you're the recipient of the Silver Star two bronze stars and a purple heart you are a husband a father to three kids and a Christian man

am I missing anything I'm sure I'm missing quite a bit but no that's uh that's it man I think the uh being a husband father and and a Christian I Think are the the most important aspects of that entire bio there um I think those are the most important jobs I've had and and I was lucky enough to serve with some incredible people um you know like yourself going through training and then on the battlefield and um I'm just honored to be able to share some of those lessons learn with with others around the world

and and to see people that can take and apply some of the Leadership Lessons that we learn on the Battlefield in their lives it's uh it's I'm I'm humbling and mystified about how you know just the the how far and wide that has spread and the impact it's had and and it's uh it's it it's it's incredible to me to see that and um and that's kind of what keeps us going that's our mission uh of why and and I get to honor the the teammates that I lost and talk about their legacies and and

all that they did and how they lived we have a lot to dive into we have a lot To dive into and um and uh so in the interview I want to that's what I want to do I want to cover your your life story your time and the teams I mean I've heard I wasn't there but I've heard a lot a lot of amazing things about tasking at Bruiser I had you know several friends that we went through buds with that wound up uh serving with you and under you and um you know you

know once again I just you hear a lot of [ __ ] about a lot Of people you know in the teams and um especially officers and uh man I've just you always come like highly recommended and and your guys just your guys guys [ __ ] love you man and it's it's really cool to see that you don't see that in a lot of in a lot of platoon I don't think not like what I hear about yours and so um I can't wait to dive into that but that's the highest compliment you could

ever pay me man and uh I love I love those guys I do Anything for them and uh it's it's uh just to honor my lifetime was the was to serve uh serve with some awesome awesome teammates so we have a patreon and uh patreon is our they are it's our subscription Network and they are top supporters a lot of them have been with us since the beginning and one of the things uh I'm proud to be a member yeah thank you for being a member they'll they will be ecstatic to know that you're in

there but um so you know we uh I offer them the opportunity to ask each guest a question and uh usually I only pick one but for you there were a lot of good questions and so I think we're going to we might do three here first question is from Charlton Clark what are three words that encapsulate a powerful leader and why three words that encapsulate a powerful leader and why I think the three words uh the three Most powerful words uh are it's my fault it's my fault and I think as a leader recognizing

that you are responsible for everything that your team does or doesn't do um just as a dad you know or or a a spouse um you you're responsible for everything that your family does and I think that understanding this concept that we we call Extreme ownership man our our ego is such a powerful driver in in the world and it Wants us to point fingers or cast blame or make excuses or say look at that guy over there he's more successful than me well he got lucky or you know he got this break or he

started with some some advantage that I didn't have instead of actually and when you do that what you do is you don't actually take action to correct the problem to actually Implement solutions to fix that going forward and so I think when you when you accept ownership for every single thing That happens in your world uh every single thing that impacts your mission then you could actually take action to solve problems constantly learn con grow constantly improve um and I think that that makes all the difference man that's that's great advice thank you Stephen Casey

what is the most significant leadership principle you have seen that is essential but has problems transitioning or translating from the military to civilian Situations that's a great question uh I think initially I thought that this concept that we call cover and move uh which is teamwork right we're working together as a team you and I are trying to move across the street Under Fire you're laying down suppressive fire uh so I can move and then when I get across the street I lay down suppressive fire so that you know uh so that that you can

move like we're we're covering and moving we're Lea frogging uh we're mut Supporting one another you know when Jac and I first launched Echelon front our leadership consulting company we went in to talk to you know corporate uh a business and uh and we thought man should we even talk about this concept like how does that even apply and you know we're talking this is a gunfighting tactic from the battlefield and the moment that you know the the senior executive team is telling us how you know the sales team and the production Team you know

are like they're not on the same page and they're blaming each other and the point fingers at each other the marketing team is saying well the sales isn't isn't selling that and the the the sales team is saying well marketing is not actually setting us up for Success you got a bunch of finger pointing a bunch of glame blame casting and we say okay let's talk about this concept of cover Move um and and they they said hey that's that's exactly what I need you to teach to my team and so it's really just a

recognition that it's not about you it's about the overall team and the overall mission and and that applies that applies to your family I mean when you see a um when you see a uh your your your wife you know or your spouse that's like struggling or frustrated with the kids or something that's going on on the home front and you can say hey okay those School applications are taking a long time and You got a bunch of stuff on your plate why why don't you let me just take that off your play I'll take

that I'll I'll run with it it's that's that's cover move and action you can actually you're working together as a team mut supporting one another in order to accomplish a mission and win and and I think initially we weren't sure how that would apply in in the um you know in the civilan world and it absolutely does um I think one that's harder to apply is The the what we call our fourth law of combat and that's decentralized command decentralized command is a you know the the obviously something you're familiar with being in the military

it just simply means that everybody leads and I think a lot of times when you talk to you know a leader that wants to control everything they want to do everything obviously that doesn't work on the battlefield and that's one of the strength of the SEAL Teams and Special Operations units You' got thinking Shooters I mean even going through buds together when you were 18 years old you're a smart capable talented individual that uh just because I'm the officer and I'm in charge like I I need you to be able to step up make calls

I need you to be able to solve problems I need you to be able to move the team forward in a positive direction I can't make all the calls I can't you know if you're just sitting and waiting for me To to tell you what to do that doesn't work so that's that's a concept that's hard to get across in the civilian world people say well I don't trust my team or you know they don't have a strong relationship so we help them work to build those relationships that's it's all based on the strength of

relationships it's built on trust when people understand not just what to do but why they're doing it you know what we call commanders attent the military The purpose and the goal and the instate but often times now we start to see leaders when in the civilian World they they'll release you know the authority they give people ownership and they kind of let people run with stuff the problem is they get too detached they get too far away and and so it's always a balance right it's a dichotomy and you're getting pulled in different directions so

you want to be detached as a leader you want to step back you want To let your people step up and lead and and and run with a plan and execute the plan give them ownership of the plan but you can't be so detached you can't be so detached that you don't know what's going on you're too attached from the the challenges and problems and uh and then you can't actually support your team you can't guide your team you can't actually step in and help them you know if you're not even familiar with the challenges

or you can't see when they're Getting off track and and you maybe need to you know help redirect them when you're talking I'm just curious when this is a personal question when you're talking about when you're relating stuff back to you know to ratti or gunfighting scenario because it sounds like you guys kind of do that how how quick I mean how fast do civilian types wrap their head around what you're teaching them when you're using those analogies pretty fast pretty fast Usually um I think initially some people will think I guess I can put

it this way the the biggest excuse is that I think the biggest excuse that any of us give ourselves me included is that it's harder for me than it is for other people and so yeah Sean's maybe experienced some things on the battlefield how does that really apply to me or hey you've done some things in your life and you have some good lessons To learn but that doesn't really apply to me I have a different situation instead of keeping an open mind instead of saying oh what can I learn from Sean what what is

what is he experienced how can that apply to my world what lesson can I take and apply you know to that and um you know before Jo when I wrote the book extreme ownership I'd have a lot of that PE businesses would say things like well um how are you going to translate this to the business world I I They would say that over and over again tell me how you're going to translate these combat Leadership Lessons to the business world and I think once they read extreme ownership they realized that the hardest part about

combat leadership is it's not about planning executing missions Under Fire it's not about maneuvering troops with bullets flying over your head the hardest part about a combat the hardest part about combat leadership is getting a diverse Group of people with different skill sets and different agendas and different perspectives to work together as a team to accomplish a mission and obviously that applies to any team in any situation um it's people it's actually getting people actually work together as a team put their own egos their own agendas aside and put the mission first um and I

think that's that's what makes the SEAL Teams great they certainly the best units in the seal teams have that Right they they don't they put the team in the mission before anything else um and uh and it's it's not about them as an individual right it's about the team uh they're going to sacrifice for the team they're going to sacrifice for their brothers on that team and and so I think that uh when people realize that that's how these Concepts translate it's just about getting people to work together as a team to mutually support one

another to accomplish a strategic Goal that applies to everything everywhere makes a whole lot of sense that's good to hear that uh that they can comprehend it uh that that fast that's that's that's really cool we do have people to push back you know they'll they'll we'll come into a company I was with the company a few weeks ago and they uh where um uh there's there was half the the the room of several hundred uh leaders were were female Executives and you know these Lady Executives some of them were pretty skeptical they told me

afterward and I was pretty skeptical about how this applies to me how we were going to take these these you know leadership Concepts and apply them and uh in in our world and um and they they they came up and said this absolutely applies we need more of this wow and so I think once people are just willing to open their mind they realize that uh every problem that you face in life is a leadership Problem your frustrations with your spouse your frustrations with your kids uh your friction points in the community the the frustration

you have with your boss or the people on your team for not doing what you want them to do or the the people outside of your immediate team that you depend on for support these are all leadership problems and I think once we think about those problems as leadership problems then we can start to apply leadership to the point of Frish as the the the Marine Corps would say uh to get those problems solved but you see that what might seem like a hopeless problem problem actually is a solve a problem interesting if you're my

my boss and you're micromanaging me uh and I'm feeling like Sean just need to get off my back I'm being micromanaged and uh that's I feel like I'm in a hopeless situation well Sean doesn't trust me what can I do about that he just needs to back off and and trust me Let me do my job but if I realize that actually I control that situation I take if I take extreme ownership of that situation and realize if you're if if what I'm feeling is micromanage you're ask me questions about what's going on well that's

cuz you care about the situation if I and you don't have enough information you need some more information so I start to take action to push more information your way to build a better relationship with you to talk To you about what what I'm doing and why I'm doing it to get some guidance on you so uh to get some guidance from you so I understand the Strategic goal and that we can be aligned and if we do that then then I can get that problem solved all of a sudden you're like hey life you

got it good to go let me know how you want to do this and so those those check-ins become less frequently so what seems like an impossible situation actually is easily solvable the moment I put my ego In check and the moment I actually take ownership and I start to leave lead up the chain of command and and apply leadership uh to get to get problem solved wow that's great advice thank you thank you did you know that studies show that 80% of resolutions fail by February you can beat the odds with Lumen and improve

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BS and the rhetoric that the mainstream media continuously tries to force feed us and I also know how frustrating it can be to try to find some type of a reliable news source it's getting really hard to find the truth and what's going on in the country and in the world and so one thing we've done here at sha Ryan Show is we are Developing our newsletter and the first contributor to the newsletter that we have is a woman former CIA targeter some of you may know her as Sarah Adams call signed super bad she's

made two different appearances here on the Shawn Ryan Show and some of the stuff that she has uncovered and broke on this show is just absolutely mindblowing and so I've asked her if she would contribute to the newsletter and Give us a week intelligence brief so it's going to be all things terrorists how terrorists are coming up through the southern border how they're entering the country how they're traveling what these different terrorist organizations throughout the world are up to and here's the best part the newsletter is actually free we're not going to spam you it's

about one newsletter a week maybe two if we release two shows the only other thing That's going to be in there besides the Intel brief is if we have a new product or something like that but like I said it's a free CIA intelligence brief sign up links in the description or in the comments we'll see you in the newsletter as you've heard on my show before there are bad guys out there who want to try to take us down it's all they think about and if you ask me this could happen at any time

will it be terrorists hackers we don't know I just Think there's a possibility that something's coming that's why I'm asking you to get prepared and I'm making it easy go right now to prepare withth sha.com and you'll see a 3-month emergency food kit from my Patriot Supply for $100 off their three-month kit provides 2,000 calories a day the amount most people need in an emergency down to the calorie they've studied survival and know what they're doing if you're like me and want to help take Control of your family safety this could be your chance go

to prepare with sean.com and get $100 off a three-month emergency food kit for my Patriot Supply prepare withth sha.com all right Leif one last thing I got one gift for you last one I promise and then we're getting to your story but uh just a little something for the ride home those are vigilance League gummy bears awesome I've uh I've been looking forward to Sampling this I'm right on well now you got some man I appreciate it thanks brother you're welcome but um all right Le we're going to like I said we're going to go

into your life story and um I have a feeling this is going to get really heavy and um I think people are going to get a a a lot out of this episode and so I once again I just want to say that I've really been looking forward to this and so let's start let's start at the beginning where did you Grow up I grew up in a small town in southeast Texas and the Piney Woods uh called Woodville Texas and it was an awesome Community to grow up and it was a small town about

3,000 people we had two stop lights uh we had two Dairy Queens which made us I guess big time at the time but uh it was uh it was just a great place to grow up you know there was if you wanted to go to a fancy restaurant or a movie theater you had to drive more than an hour away um but I Loved it I mean I spent all my my childhood playing in the woods um playing some kind of combat the woods throwing Spears at each other building forts um people sometimes ask me

if we played Cowboys and Indians we actually were in we were all Indians all the time everyone no one wanted to be a cowboy everyone was an Indian uh and and so we were we were the Native American warriors out there patrolling the woods setting booby traps for my mom to like Fall in in our backyard and uh we lived in a in a great neighborhood with just kind of woods behind the neighborhood and we were just constantly in the Woods playing and and uh out from like sun up to the sun down my mom

had a whistle that she would blow and we had to be within hearing distance of the whistle which was I push that pretty regularly but you could hear that whistle we come back um and uh and I grew up in a great household my mom and dad were loving Wonderful parents um they really took their their job seriously as as uh my dad was the was the town dentist um and he had a busy job and my mom was a stay-at home mom and then a part-time uh school teacher and and a school librarian but

they they really just poured into me and my my brother and three sisters um we had a big family and they just they took that as their primary job is is raising us right up upright um you know the the Proverbs Train up a child in the way he would go and when he's older and not depart from that I think they took that very seriously and and really set an amazing example for me you know as a as a mother and dad and just uh were constantly there to support me and I was my

always my dad's like fishing hunting buddy really he had friends that he he'd hunt with but we spent so much time together on the lake on the ocean you know fishing and hunting uh out in the woods Um and uh it was an amazing place to grow up and I didn't fully appreciate uh the town of Woodville and the community until after I I I left school uh I went off to to the Naval Academy and and when I was really deployed overseas um because the amount of care packages that would come in from not

only my family but friends and just members of the community I mean it was stuff that we would share uh with with the rest of the task in because there was so much stuff That was coming in and it just you know there were some great communities across the United States but it was it was it was just a a quantitative measure uh of of just how awesome that Community was to grow up in and just how supportive and and patriotic and and uh amazing the the church was a big part of of our life

growing up we started going uh to First Baptist Church of Woodville uh when I was in third grade My dad became a a deacon there and uh church was mandatory Every Sunday uh when I started being a a little wild man uh you know in my my high school days and uh partying a little too hard my dad would come in and drag me out of bed and saying you going to church boy here we go so U then we get home from church and it was put on your working gloves and working clothes and

I remember trying to push back and saying uh Hey Dad uh aren't we supposed to not work on the Sabbath and he said this isn't work son this is fun yeah so We'd be out chainsaw and brush and clearing land we grew up on a uh when I was about 12 we moved to uh some acerage kind of out in the woods we lived in a neighborhood before that with woods behind it like I mentioned but then uh it was it was uh constantly just working to clear that place and you know keep it nice

build build fence and repair fence and clear brush and it was just an awesome way to grow up it was uh it was an amazing Community five kids five kids In my family where'd you fall in the birth order I was the second uh my sister and I are very close we're uh 16 months apart so um she was uh she was she'll never let me live down that she was uh in those 16 months I guess she lived a a lifetime of experience that she's older to and then I have a twin brother and

sister my parents wanted to have three um they had me and my sister then the the third child was twins uh my brother and sister fraternal twins and Then they had a surprise about eight years after that my baby sister nice but it was I was the only one that served the military I always wanted to do that uh my dad had been uh in uh the Army uh and then uh in the Air Force and so I spent my first couple years Ramstein Air Base he was stationed there as an Air Force dentist and

um I was the only one that went the military my my five siblings but for me that's all I ever wanted to do was be in the military so What' your dad do on the military he was a he was a uh he was in the National Guard um and uh in the Army and then uh and then he was they they paid for his dental school and he served his his I think four years after dental school so he was stationed at Ramstein for um I think for three of that right my first kind

of six months to we came back when I was three years old wow I lived there too when I was a kid my dad was in the Army too as a pharmacist wow our Upbringing is uh very similar I never knew that that's awesome yeah and it yeah but um are you tight with all your siblings or I am I am they're they're uh they're they're a great family and um we all keep each other in check and uh but yeah they're it's they're a wonderful family everybody's got kids we have a huge I think

my parents have 177 grandkids holy cow that's awesome like 18 to you know two or three I think that is awesome so it's uh it's it's a pile Of cousins every time my kids you know go it's it's magical and they scream why can't we live in Woodville every time we go there just run around the woods that's awesome man does everybody in Texas everybody's in Texas no nice nice nice what were what kind of were you a star athlete or anything like that and growing up I played you know I played probably like a

lot of people you know I played soccer and baseball and and and basket I was horrible at basketball I Realized that wasn't my sport when I I I I got a rebound I think that was in fourth grade or fifth grade and I immediately shot I shot the the basket scored a goal for the other team I was like basketball's not for me so when I started playing football in seventh grade and tackle football was like everything and and small town Texas it's you know we'd have 3,000 people um in the town and we'd have

like you know probably nearly that many people at the Game you know on Friday nights it was just a it was an awesome thing um I loved it man it was the closest thing to suting up you know and and uh gearing up for for combat um you know that that that you could do I think in the civilian world and it was uh it was a super it was it was a fun time we had our in our high school um the uh the the head coach our head football coach uh coach Melvin Houston

he'd been there for years awesome guy uh and and he was a Real mentor to uh so many people on the team particular for some of the star athletes who were raised in in homes that maybe didn't have a have a father there um he was an incredible guy and his wife was also the uh was the uh uh the choir director so all of us like the entire starting lineup in football was like in choir as well was mandatory he was in track so we all ran track also to kind keep in shape uh

but you know we had we had some of the star football Players that like marching the band at halftime everyone kind of did everything wow uh and it was just it was just a fantastic place to grow up awesome Community very cool what what got your interest in the military I can't ever remember wanting to do anything else I mean from the time that I can remember wanting to do anything I I wanted to be in the military I was painting my face and crawling through the you know the the The backyard jungle and and

um it was I just I wanted to be some kind of combat leader I had a little stent where we had these F4 Phantoms that would come fly over from uh some of the bases in in Louisiana I remember a couple of like B52 like tree toop level flights that were pretty awesome so there there was like a small stamp where I was like oh man maybe being a pilot would be cool but then I quickly went back to like no I want to be a some kind of a ground Combat leader in some some

capacity and then when I was like in probably I was probably in junior high school and I started hearing about the SEAL Teams and uh the the marcinko books uh came out red Rogue Warrior you probably read it probably about the same time I did and uh that was that was one that really I started reading about the seals and Vietnam and learning about the rat special Zone and you know uh camon bay and and Na and all all these places That our seal forefathers were operating out of and I was just smitten with that

and uh then the movie Navy Seals with Charlie Sheen came out oh yeah uh and while I was in high school and it just uh that kind of cemented it for me uh that I wanted to be in in the sealed teams and uh so I I I I wanted to go to the Naval Academy to pursue that that that dream um and so I I I put in a package for the Naval Academy I I put in a package for West Point as well and we Had a super strong uh West Point uh Alumni

Association in Southeast Texas and uh one of the head head guys he was a silver star recipient um from uh the Korean War amazing guy he was really close friends with my my grandfather um and he was a big advocate of West Point his West Point grab and and he was pretty heartbroken when I chose I chose Navy U but I chose that cuz I wanted to be in the SEAL Teams and my dad and I did a lot of fishing growing up on the Texas coast there's fantastic uh inshore fishing uh offshore fishing on

the Texas coast and we were going out on the galvon Jetties and I remember just watching all these I I'd accepted my appointment to West Point because I got picked up in like it was like January of my senior year um that's so I accepted my appointment and I still hadn't heard back from Navy it was like uh and and Fin in like late April I was graduating in May uh I finally I got I got uh I got Accepted to West Point or I'm sorry I got accepted to Navy so i' already accepted my

appointment to West pointor I finally got a an appointment to the Naval Academy and so then I was like man what do I do now like I don't know you know what I want to do um the Alumni network told me uh they said they said uh the West the West Point love. Network said they said all right you got a decision to make here Dwight D Eisenhower went to West Point Jimmy Carter went to Navy I was like man that's a tough one yeah you putting it on me here that was that was a

strong statement but I was I was out fishing my dad had a little center console fishing but we were out there trying to catch some speckled trout red fish on the galon Jetties um and I I I remember looking at these just these oil tankers you know the Houston Ship Channel comes in through the galvon there it's one of the busiest ports in In North America and uh just watching these different tankers come in and all the different flags saing from around the world and I just remember turn tur to my dad and saying I'm

I'm going to go to Naval Academy I wanted to be I wanted to be in the Navy and I wanted to be in the SEAL Teams that was the purpose and uh after four long years at Navy uh I did not get selected for the Seal program damn you know it's it's why did you I know you said all throughout your Childhood you wanted to be a leader in a ground unit but why I'm just curious why didn't why didn't you go the enlisted route why did you why were you help bent on the academy

man that's a great question Sean I uh there are many times as an officer when I was uh sitting in a tactical Operation Center and uh when I was you know uh when we were passing out the the the PowerPoint Ranger patch you know 3,000 hours uh where you you just uh Where I was like maybe I should have listed in in the SEAL Teams um I definitely questioned it when I graduated from Navy uh because when I didn't get service elected I I I you know and and and man they made the right call

to be honest like they they only took 16 guys out of the Naval Academy um and uh there was a prior unlisted seal in my class so they took 15 guys and you know there was 200 people that went out for the screener it was probably 80 guys That graduated from the screener and probably 40 or 50 of those guys could have gone and done really well um any of them and so they only took 15 and I I was not one of those 15 and that was based on my my grade point average which

was atrocious I was uh I was part of that uh that half of the class that made the top half possible and uh and I had a terrible conduct record because when you get you know a midshipman that who was Two years older than me who was kind of barking orders at me and tell me what to do I let them know that I was not too pleased about that uh I was pretty strong wielded and hard-headed as you you know me to be and and uh I think that uh that didn't serve me well

there so I had a conduct record I got got in much in trouble um and uh so I wasn't selected U but actually was the it was the best thing ever happened to me because my time the surface fleet was Was awesome I I was instantly thrown into uh a position of responsibility and and and Leadership um and uh and I served you know three different appointments on two different ships um got to sail all over the world and and see some amazing things work with some incredible people uh so what was you tried out

sorry go ahead well I was just going to say to answer your question I think what my parents were pushing me to like go to college first Um and that was probably a bigger Factor but it was it was a um I don't know like there were when I when I got service elected uh out of uh for for the service Fleet out of the Academy I was like man I probably should have listened to n so um but it was it was I think my parents just kind of encouraged me to go to college

I was interested in the Naval Academy you know I was interested in having a a degree under my belt if I hadn't got one of the cies I would have Gone to Texas A&M and been on the the core Cadets there in the RTC program um so I I think that was probably more their their encouragement than anything else but there's certainly times that I regretted that and and uh what I loved about the seal te was you know man the the while the college degree might might have separated uh officers from it listed at

some point I mean the post 911 world that wasn't even the case you know for a lot of guys Brian Bill and our Buds class that have electrical engineering degree probably a way better GPA than I ever had you know and so many guys that I served with like you you know were just super smart guys um you know and and were way smarter than I would ever be so it was uh there wasn't a lot of differentiation it was just simply like like a different role interesting interesting so so I didn't so they're recruiting

right out of the Academy I Didn't I didn't realize it was that much the 200 people tried roughly 200 people trying out that's well that's pretty stiff competition what so when you found out that that you didn't how did they tell you you didn't make the cut do you find out immediately they announce it's like service election night and so they can they announce you and and so I had put my first choice was Naval special Warfare my second choice was Marine ground uh I was like if I can't be in The you know uh

a seal I'll go be a marine infantry officer maybe I can try to go you know force force Recon and you know that that out and uh and then my third choice was service service Warfare the ship drivers and um so when they they they basically like just you know you they you distribute a piece of paper that gives you the service selection with all the you know the seniors the firsties there um and uh you're sitting there in like the ward room on on you Know and it's it's uh I I saw my best

friend and roommate just his head just you know he was he was really disappointed to knock it so we were both going out for the you know the Seal program that's what we wanted um and so when he didn't get it I didn't get it and we were right there in the room together sitting next to each other you know it was an encouragement you know to keep going and and and uh but again it was the best thing ever happened to me I Love my time in the surface Fleet and I wanted to be

a seal the whole time but I instantly I flew out to I went to about six months of of school in in um Rhode Island and then I flew out and met a ship and we were enforcing sanctions against the um against Iraq back you know before uh before the war kicked off uh so these were the UN sanctions that had been in place since the Persian Gulf War and and so I got to work alongside SE seals would go take down these ships Our boarding team would go alongside and and take over the ship

and then just Vector them over to a holding area it was super cool man we had you were I forgot you were on a boarding team correct if I remember right yeah we did dozens of boardings how did how did you get involved in that they they just the ship just selected me to be a part of it I was lucky enough to to be uh be a part of that and it was it was really it was a neat thing to be able to see and do And and I think just being able to

navigate a ship across the world was uh um it required a lot of responsibility I mean when you're the officer of the deck you're in charge of the ship when the captain's asleep in his State Room at night time or if you know if he's elsewhere you were responsible for the the entire well-being of that ship I mean there massive responsibility on your shoulders um what kind of ship were you on I was on a destroyer uh DD 972 USS oldendorf uh did two years on that we had an awesome you know wardroom of great

officers and listed Sailors were outstanding that were on that thing um and uh it was it was just a great leadership opportunity for me I learned a ton of Lessons Learned in a ton of things wrong you know came in kind of the strong will Denson and got shut down you know realized like look I need to rely on my my experienced uh uh Chiefs and and and uh Sailors to actually lead This team and learn from them um and so I got to see like what good leader leadership looks like it's not the person

that's barking orders of people it's actually being the the silent leader that listens to the team and and lets them Runs run with things um and then I went to a different ship um FFG 38 USS kurts I did about a year on on the uh there as a training officer uh so I did the first ship I did two deployments to uh uh the Persian Gulf um And kind of Transit that you know uh Indian Ocean you know Pacific transits and then uh and then I did a Western Pacific uh uh deployment with the

with the Kurds the frig um both of those were were great experiences and uh awesome group and and I got selected um probably halfway through my time at uh being on the that second ship the USS Kurds um I got selected this was September 2001 and I got selected uh finally on my second package that I put In for the Seal program um and so right as September 11th happened wow and and so we knew this is you know real we knew we were going to war I knew after buds we're going straight to a

you know to a um to a seal platoon and depl point overseas and um and so probably by the time that you were you know going uh going through your boot camp and and just starting your Navy Journey um I was uh for me uh it was interesting because some of the sailors you know there's so Many sailors in the fleet with a 70 80% attrition rate that didn't make it through buds I remember one of the sailors is a great great guy um asking me like you know you got selected you know for for

buds how far do you think you'll make it to the program you know and I thought I thought that was a crazy question I was like all the way through the program like why why would I be even going if I didn't think I could I was going to make it all the way through you Know I think you know in his mind having gone there and not made it through it just was like impossible to make it through the program and and I think I I I was so appreciative of the experience you know

when I got to buzz and you and I going through Buzz together it it enabled me to to uh to think about what it took to actually get there all the effort that it took uh and I had some amazing people that pull so many strings for me you know to to write letters of Recommendation to to train me and prepare me and get me ready you know physically um and and stuck their neck out to to get me selected out of you know dozens of people that applied um and and so I was never

going to do you know let them down in any way and and it gave me it gave me some some great perspective January's almost over and so is your chance to save on a helix mattress while getting the very best sleep of your life if you're dealing With snoring back pain sleep apnea or if you sleep too hot Helix mattress can help with all of that so many of my listeners are getting the most restful sleep of their lives me included with their Helix mattresses you know a good night sleep is one of the best

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and on your schedule you could be covered in under 10 minutes with no Health exam required just go to meetfabric domcom Shan that's meetfabric docomond we're weeks into 2025 and this time every year I re-evaluate all of my family's needs my family's Financial Security is my top priority and I want to make sure we're prepared in case something unexpected happens fabric helps me protect my family and fabric can help you too fabric has flexible policies that will fit your budget like A million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day there's absolutely no

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aboard the USS Kur so I was the duty officer and um and uh we were just you know everybody was just waking up in the morning and um you know obviously that's you know 6 6:00 in the morning uh you know on the west coast when 9:00 you know when it went down and uh on the East coast and I got a call from the uh the incoming duty officer who was listening to the news on his way into work and he said hey a plan's just hit the World Trade Center and I thought I'm

thinking it's like a little Cessna sightseeing plane or something you know that got too close I'm like what are you talking about so I went in and we turned on the news um in the wardroom and I turned on the news and I'm sitting there watching like man this smoke bling out And and we just watched in in on live TV as the second plane hit and and we knew instantly this is an attack like this is real we're at War um and and it just was changed everything wow wow and so you you were

selected right after that or right before that I don't remember the exact date that I found out that it was uh it was right around then um and uh I can't remember if it was just before or just after uh but but I I I know I got the news like like like in September 2001 and uh and so it was I knew this is real and I was lucky enough I had I had a great commanding officer on on board uh the USS kurts and he was kind enough to uh send me Tad over

to Seal Team 5 and so I was Tad to Seal Team 5 I went over there I helped out wherever I could you know the administrator side but they assigned us to a a Senior Chief um and um he was all he did me he just trained us all the time and and so we we for like six St Eight months before I went to buds uh I was I was spent most of my time over at Sil Team 5 just training and preparing uh and some of my friends were there who had helped pull

some some strings you know for me to be there in fact that very same seal who got service elected um and uh no kidding yeah he got uh uh yeah he he he had get got picked up just the year before uh so they went through the year year before that uh you and I went through Buzz together and he had he Was just there as a new guy uh assistant platoon Commander um and so man he'd take me out for runs I would the runs that he took me on were harder than anything we

did in buts like I I would puke my guts up uh and as a result of that I never I was I was a horrible Runner that was the thing I probably struggled with most and uh and I didn't I didn't fall back and the runs in buzs just cuz you know thankfully I hadn't had that opportunity how long was it how Long was it after you got the word that you showed up at buds we classed up uh 241 classed up in April of 2002 so um that was uh yeah it was it was

it was pushing six months of kind of prep and and training um and and I knew when I got picked up like that was the last time I I I was already a lieutenant JG um and I knew I was I was going to make you know Lieutenant at the four-year Mark which if you remember I put that on in first Phase um I got uh I got quite the uh the promotion party if you're remember the beat down um but yeah it was it was uh uh I I knew that was like the last

shot so I was already training for I was already preparing for it but but I had about six months of of people that really and it's so hard to train when you're underway on a ship you know as far as running and swimming and doing the you just can't do it so well so it was just awesome to have you know my Commanding officer and the the senior leadership on that on that ship support me and and be excited for me and on my previous ship I mean they super powerful letters of recommendation as well

you know that enable that to happen and if I didn't have the seals that were pulling for me um that uh that that wrote me a letter recommendation you know and and more than anything probably was was Admiral Smith who was retired shal Admiral um his son Adam and I friends And and um he he had uh our close friend who's still serving I won't won't name him um you know was was probably my my biggest Advocate an amazing guy and uh pulled so many strings for me trained with me got me ready you know

connected me with with Adam and then app Smith and app Smith wrote me a just incredibly powerful letter recommendation um that uh that if people hadn't pulled those strings for me man I would have never never even had the opportunity to serve You know what do you what is it what does The Selection look like for for an officer to get into buds what what do they what's the selection process look like I think the bill is I think there's 24 bullets out the academy today um and I think there's something like that it's a

for all of like RTC um and then there's like a hand so they take 48 a year something like that I I I don't know what the numbers are um I have to double check that I I think it was I think that was it for a while but it's it's highly competitive right interesting so they only take 48 men it's something like that yeah program yeah don't call me on the numbers of that um but it's it's it's very highly comptitive um and then there's a handful of of uh of officers that come in

um like our our mutual friend Travis that will you know come in with with a uh Officer candidate School build it um and you know who went through went through Buzz with us and and uh they'll uh there's just it's very competitive as an officer so you're you're training with people like um I mean I I was competing at the Naval Academy with you know the the the captain of the water polo team like I was never a competitive s that guy's gonna destroy me like somebody who's on the cross country team somebody's on the

triath you know a uh On the triathlon team they got to be looking for more than that though I mean they can they can find physical fitness anywhere what what are they looking for specifically in an officer I mean you because it sounds like you weren't even no no offense but it doesn't sound like you were a Superstar athlete at the Naval Academy I I definitely was problems running you weren't a swimmer you know and then have all these guys that were maybe that's not why you got Picked up I don't know but I mean

they have to be looking for more than athleticism that was a part of it I think it was a major factor I think they're also looking for grade point average they're looking for uh you know uh student leadership opportunities I was never a student leadership because I was always in trouble for something so I think uh uh you know there's just um I mean I wouldn't train my my time with the Naval Academy was Awesome I really enjoyed my experience there um there were some there was some negative examples right that that uh that showed

me like the leader that I didn't want to be as well I think that's always the case right um I think I think good leadership is rare no matter where you are but there also were some amazing leaders there who poured into me and and set a great example um and frankly Sean I'm I'm I am I wouldn't trade that for anything I Mean the fact that I didn't get service elected for the sealed program I had to work is I had to work my ass off I had to I had to train I had

to go out and build relationships I had to stop feeling sorry for myself and making excuses CU that would have been easy to do right well this person knew that person or this person got picked up or that person happen to you know make better grades than me or this person's a better athlete you know and that Shouldn't be what it's based on you I can make all those excuses what I had to do was before I even understood this concept We Now call Extreme ownership I actually I had take extreme ownership to say if

this is what I want to do with my life I'm going to have to actually do the work to make this possible um you know to to open the door and I when I put in my very first lateral transfer package so I had to get fully qualified as a service Warfare officer um and uh So that that took me about a year and a half on my first ship you know man it's that's a huge qualification to get right you have to study you have to prepare it takes a long time and effort and

when you I finally got that qualification I put together I I met every requirement possible um and I put in a package that I thought was a strong package didn't get service elected wow I got turned out again and and that was crushing to me I thought D what this you know this is and I I I the senior officer he was a captain at the time and he was the chief of staff over at warcom the naval special Warfare command so very senior officer and I reached out just tracked down his content info scheduled

a meeting with him uh and went over uh and sat out sat out to talk to him and I said Hey sir I'm you know Lieutenant JG Babin I want to be in the I want to be in the SEAL Teams this is what I want to do I think I can cont Tri to this Community what do I need to do you make this happen and he told me he was like he said he was like no one has ever scheduled a meeting like this with with me I think that shows a lot of

initiative on your part you know keep trying you know get your scores better get some better you know get go get some strong letters of recommendation put in a package again and I think you'll do better next time so I think just we call this concept default aggressive that Problems aren't going to solve themselves like you actually got to go solve problems you actually have to make things happen things aren't going to just fall in your lap like you got to go make it happen and that applies on the battlefield it also applies anywhere in

life and the opportunities I think it's real easy for us to look at people and be like well you know that person got lucky or this person just stumbled upon that or this person had that door open For them and more often than not man you people make their luck through hard work you know discipline preparation effort all the years and years of of effort behind the scenes that people don't see and uh so I think that to me was a tremendous life lesson of like hey this isn't going to happen unless you go and

do the work to make it happen and that required training you know being the best service Warfare officer I could be I knew that instead of complaining about Not being in the SEAL Teams if I wanted to be in the SEAL Teams the best path for that for me was to be the best service Warfare officer I could be and uh and there was I mean people would say things like well you don't want to be they won't want to let you go you know if if you're you know if you're too too critical for

a member of the team that's total [ __ ] right you got to the the better that you are on your team the more more the higher you perform the the More that your leadership's going to want to write you a strong Le recommendation right the more that people are actually going to want to take care of you and help you out so the more I could contribute to my team you know that happened to be a ship uh that I was assigned to the better it would be for me I you know going and

building relationships of people reaching out to folks that that could write powerful letters of recommendation you know um And and it was uh I I think for anything in life like it's the opportunities are not going to come your way you got to go make things happen you got to be default aggressive and uh and and it's you know again if you wait for problems to go away on their own they just they just going get worse you know so I'm I'm thankful that happened it was the best thing that ever happened to me and

I can tell you Sean years later uh after I was serving as a A senior you know executive for in the business world we call it right at the operations officer an executive officer position and I was frustrated with the employment of seals or lack of employment with seals in in combat at the time uh and I would get super frustrated about things that were way above me in the chain of command there I can remember at least three different occasions where I jumped in my truck I drove across the Coronado Bay Bridge I Went

over to 32nd Naval Street uh I went over to 32nd Street Naval Station which is where all the ships in San Diego are and I walked out one of those peers and I lefted across at at Coronado at Naval Amphibious Base where the sealed teams are and uh and I remembered what it was like and it was it just put that all in perspective for me wow like you know this is I can't ever forget what it was like to be over here wanting to be there and wanting to do anything I could to Get

over there so no matter how frustrated I am um I'm in the SE teams and I got to do the best I can and and impact the people around me um you know and try to try to make whatever you know happen to be a sign we try to make life as good as I can for for those people that I'm with wow that's interesting so you would go back to what you couldn't wait to leave to reset just to give me perspective on what it was like like to remember what it was like to

to want to Be in the SEAL Teams and not be there man that's cool that's cool Le so correct me if I'm wrong with a breakfast I think we I think we had a discussion where are you mentoring Junior officers in the SEAL Teams or Junior officers that are wanting to go to the SEAL Teams when I when I got back from our my second combat deployment to ratti I took over the junior officer training course um it's so for two years I ran that training program um for every s SE Officer they graduated from

buds um so before they go to buds before they go on to the you know the Advanced Training the SE qualification training they they would go through a four-week classroom weekl Long fueld training exercise and so I'd been through that program uh that's that's where you and I broke off together right after we graduated Buds and then you went on to Seal Seal qualification training and and uh so I I you know the officers from our class Went to uh SE school and some some other schools and then we went to the junior officer training

course together um and so I I got a chance to run that four years later and I got it was a great program when I went through it but I think uh it was focused on trying to help you understand how it was organized and and what I got to do was really um I think try to revamp it to to just try to set those leaders up for Success you know and uh and and to help those Leaders be ready for the most difficult combat situations that they might come up against we'll get into

more details with that uh at a more appropriate time in theend interview but what I'm the reason I'm bringing it up is what what are you looking for in junior seal leadership what are some of the what are some of the top attributes that you've identified that that great leaders inside of n Naval special Warfare all seem to have number one humility Humility is the most important quality of leader and the reason I say that is because look if you don't have an ego you don't care about winning right you just mail it in you

don't care about outperforming the other you know other people are doing well like ego drives us to to be successful um so you got to have an ego but so often ego is the the it just it just absolutely destroys people it destroys careers it Destroys teams it destroys relationships it destroys lives and when people can't put their ego in check you just you can never get better you can never improve and I think you know the biggest lesson that I've learned in life through some extremely humbling combat operations uh and then beyond is that

it's it's be humble or get humbled and any time that I'm feeling like oh I got things figured out oh I've got to you know uh oh I'm I'm ready for you know for the worst Case scenario life might throw me man you get humbled and and you get put in check so I think that humility is is number one the most important quality because without humility you can't learn from anybody else you can't you can't you can't get better right you can't evolve you can't adapt or innovate um you can't listen to other people's

ideas or learn from them in any capacity and worst of all you can't look yourself in the mirror and conduct an honest self Assessment a brutally honest self assessment because that's what's key uh if you if you can't do that there's no way you're ever going to improve what's required is an honest self assessment of like okay I need to do these things to improve I need to do these things to actually fix myself going forward okay these might be my strengths but these are my weaknesses I need to work on those you know to

get to get better hey we might have gotten Lucky on that comat operation uh but but if you know we better be prepared for that worst case scenario next time in case we don't get so lucky um and so I think number one humility um number two ownership and that goes right along with each other right if you're going to point fingers and cast blame and make excuses uh it's right there with humility the driver of that is is ego but often times the reason I say ownership is because if I'm going to Wait for

you to solve my problem like that problem's not going to get solved so let's say you and I have a conflict and we don't see eye to eye on something you know I I can I can say well Shawn just you know I don't like the way Shawn talked to me you know or Shawn needs to come apologize to me or you know Shawn that's Sea's fault for not seeing the world from my perspective or I can actually take ownership of saying you know what Shawn there's some reason that Sea disagrees with me on this

um let me actually learn from his perspective let me actually take ship of fixing this problem by taking some action uh you know to to to actually get his perspective and see his perspective on things uh and see what I could have done better to to better communicate you know what my perspective was and ask more questions so I could I could see the world through his eyes and so I think those things are are are super critical Teamwork is a great example of that right if you're just about yourself um and you can't actually

put the team at the overall team the mission first I think that's a that's never that's not someone that's going to going to do well and particular and high performing organizations whether you're talking like to like a seal unit or a special operations unit or a SWAT team or frankly like a super high performing sales team you know in in the corporate World a lot of times you'll talk to them about the concept of cover move and teamwork and they'll say oh we're doing awesome we're doing awesome you know but our admin Department sucks and

Supply sucks and they're not getting us what we need you know Andy the the the senior leaders up in their corporate High to they don't know what's going on down here and so they they and what you realize is like they they they think about teamwork within just their Immediate team not about the other teams that they actually depend on to be successful so you know when you start realizing like hey I I need a better relationship with the admin department so that we can get paid so that we can actually get the paperwork taken

care of so that we can actually do what we need to do and and focus on our job you know I need a better relationship with Supply so they can give me the tools that they that they that I need to be successful I Need a good relationship with my chain of command right one of the biggest lessons I learned from Joo um is not having a good relationship with your chain of Comm command doesn't help you and it certainly doesn't help your team so you got to build a good relationship with your chain of

command just to to make sure you're aligned with them make sure they understand um you know what what you're trying to do and how you're trying to do it and why you you and and They have the information they need you know to better support you make better decisions so I think when you're looking at humility ownership teamwork I think those are crucial things discipline I think is something else you know if you have people that um are not disciplined I mean I I I think about somebody uh in in our blood class like like

Brian bill you know for instance Who Um probably wasn't born graded everything and right that guy was so he was the only guy in Our entire buds class that was first time every time in in uh in in die you know through through uh the pool competency test which is you know if you don't know what pool comp is it is miserable right where they're tying your hoses and Knots and and uh and that was that's a terrifying test right for so many people that that you know even people that are comfortable in the water

um and it was we had so many roll Backs from the previous you know uh uh class As you know you know I was one of them yeah you were one of those it was and and the stories you guys told us it was like terrifying you know and so um I think that uh Brian was the only dude on that wall this first time every time why is that well he was he he was methodical in his preparation and and it was he was disciplined and that enabled him to to be successful in everything

he's trying to do so I think somebody you know it's great to have some qualities and natural Abilities and those things are great when you can combine natural ability and and discipline that's Unstoppable but you know hard work is going to beat uh natural ability over time if you've got somebody who's disciplined is going to put in the work so you know I I think those are the qualities um that I think apply not just to a seal leader but but I think to any leader in any situation you know somebody who's humble somebody will

take ownership somebody who's a Team player it puts the team first as somebody who's disciplined man that's great that's great to hear thank you I got a ton of questions but I'm going to save them for the leadership section but so let's get back to buds so you show up to buds we're classing up in April of was it 2001 20 2002 correct and uh so what I mean what was it like for you walking in the compound as a as a as a as a buds candidate Bud student man I might have been different

From a lot of us I I loved it I thought it was awesome I mean to to me just just having the not that you weren't certainly we were walking on eggshells all the time right any and I remember afterward particularly as as the class officer in charge right as the senior person in the class it didn't matter what happened right I don't think I failed a single room inspection the entire time actually I we had one spot inspection in die phase that I failed And uh um me and my my roommate failed it was

it was like one is but every other inspection I passed every other personal inspection I passed which was unheard of and yeah I got beaten I was the first guy to get beaten every time right because you're just anybody in the class fails you as the leader responsible uh and uh and so you're going to you're going to pay the man for it that was just part of the game you know I I I embrace that with a sense of Humor you know so so there was you know there was it took a couple of

years to be able to walk on the grinder before you kind of like who's looking at me you know you feel like you need to be running and calling Cadence um but uh by the way they don't call Cadence across the grinder anymore it's uh I miss that was so that was so freaking cool like just to my left to my you know just just yelling at our class as we became across the ground for me just knowing the History of that place you know knowing not only through the SEAL Teams but for our the

underwater demolition teams our Frogman forefathers before before them um and and knowing all of that took place right there right I mean it's cornado na Amphibious Base I mean this is this is where the you know the guys that were going out and swimming up on on you know beaches like eima you know and and Guam and saan I mean just just amazing amazing history um and uh I just I I thought it was awesome and you know checking in I mean you know for guys like you that were class ahead of me you know

uh initially it was like you might as well have been there for 30 years of experience right because you I'm just showing up and you don't know like what to do I quickly like just try to just have a sense of humor I remember they they I walked into the the uh indoc office right those first few weeks that they used to call in indoc the Indoctrination uh before you started first phase and and one of the instructors was uh was like Babin and I just walked up was like hey uh he they they had

like their coffee mess there and they had like this fancy coffee and I came from the fleet there's no fancy coffee everybody these Chiefs you know the fleet are drinking like black tar coffee that was you know reheated coffee from like 5 days ago so they had this like fancy coffee mess in there and they Had a they had a pile of like like sugar cubes I mean and it was probably like I don't know 50 of them he's like how many of those sugar cubes you know can you eat at once bab and I'm

like all of them I just like shove them all in my mouth you know and uh yeah just I think from that on I just I just try to you know just have a good sense of humor about it and uh um it was yeah to me I thought it was I mean it was the quality of people that that we got to serve with There Was You know I think in that post 911 era of people that you know like you that are like enlisted in the Navy this what they want to do I'm

going to go serve my country in a time of War um you know it was it was it was just incredible man and uh and I I just I wouldn't trade that for anything it was awesome what about the intimidation Factor were you intimidated coming in checking in there totally man of course you know I mean you're kind of like do I make eye Contact with people do you not you know you're trying to just figure that out um you know and uh we talk a lot you know the dichotomy of leadership right you got

to try to find that balance you got to be confident but not cocky right and that I said humility is the most important quity the leader so you got to have some confidence but you also you can't be cocky and I think just trying to find that balance was like you know uh knowing that like the instructor Staff that uh um some of the guys that would you know say I hate officers and give us the hard time you know more than anything else um they ended up being my favorite instructors and they just you

know even though they dished out the worst physical punishments in pain um they were just they were awesome and and you know some of those guys who who you know were like looking to give the officers a hard time uh you know one of the things I loved about indoc too do do You remember the the officer belly flop contest off the the the high D oh yeah oh yeah off like the 15 footboard that was so awesome just you're like okay if I'm going to do this I'm going to win like I'm going all

into this thing I'm G to make it so painful I'm I'm like knock the wind out of myself and someone's going to have to like haul me to the side um but that to me was like it was it was fun I think you just try to you know try to make the best of it what was The usually everybody I know has some type of uh you know they're worried about a hang up in buds whether it's the pool comp or the 50 m underwater swim or the 2 m swims or whatever it may

be mine was the 50 m under underwater swim was the first one I was really nervous about wh how'd you do on that crushed it I think that was hard I was was easy you know what was crazy so we I'm sure you watched the Discovery Channel like so I did too and and and they what I realized later some things like hell week they like they really can't show you just how hard hell week's going to be right so like it's I thought H's way harder than you know that I even visioned it could

be just kind of based on watching that show but some of the other things like the ocean swims the cold water like the underwater swim they were I I realized they were focusing on people that were struggling and so it made it look like it was impossible so Yeah I mean they I thought the 50 meter underwater s was like no Factor you know yeah but uh some of the things that that that kicked my ass man were um before though before we did them what were you worried about what was your biggest fear I

worried about it I sweated every single Evolution no every single one and and I had a friend to tell me that sweat every Evolution like just just you you you better be worried about preparing we're going to spend our weekends Prepping planning um we were doing stupid stuff too like like pool compon each other in like the you know in the in the uh in the like local like uh apartment complex pools you know into like civilian di rigs that we rented from the local like stupid stuff like dangerous stuff if you're listening to this

don't uh or watching this don't do that that's stupid you know you're going to AG yourself you definitely a Dive Master in there to make sure stuff like That's not going on um but uh we were we just tried to sweat every evolution I was um I was worried about the runs cuz I had struggled with runs um and I found the runs were like the runs were hard I mean they definitely were you know all outs Sprat for um but I don't I don't think I I don't think I got in the Goon Squad

even one time um that was also because our our good friend and classmate Seth Stone uh had made the egregious error of marrying one of the Buds instructor sisters I forgot about that so we the officers would get regularly pulled out and just beat on for that and then the entire class get beat on and then wherever Stoner was we call him SES though we call him Stoner but wherever Stoner was in the lineup of the runs if you remember they would just find him and be like goon squad you're on back and he he

would just embrace it you know and uh just start barar crawling the goons Squad everyone's just Getting beat on and uh everyone else is like circling up but uh you were a good runner right you weren I don't think you were in a good squad I was good that was the one thing I was really good at was running yeah I remember you being a good runner the swims for me I was like one bad swim our mutual friend who I won't say his name but uh we got put together it was one another officer

and he was not a great swimmer and I was not a great swimmer so We were like one bad conditions away from failing the swim the I think the only swim I feel was the the ones where they forc us to wear like the new fins remember that yeah oh yeah and half the class failed um cuz we had to wear these these new pans that were supposed to be so much better and and we all went back to the old school like World War II like UD du duck feed yeah um but it was

uh that was one where I was I wasn't a fast swimmer I not going to go for a while But um but I I knew I was kind of one bat one way but I think one of the most the hardest things for me um that I didn't anticipate was drown proofing people thought drown proofing was easy did you did you have no problem with drown proofing I thought drown I thought drown proofing was easy so many people did drown proofing was horrible for no [ __ ] that was hard for you when I after

we did like you know bouncing off the bottom was fine but once we had to do Like the Traverse you know with your hands and feet tied and my heart rate got up and then I started doing the flips um so just for the audience that doesn't know what drown proofing is basically what they do is they tie your feet they tie your feet together they Tie Your Hand hands together behind your back and you start off Just In The Deep End right bouncing up and down kind of getting a rhythm into breathing then you

have to float then you have to swim was It 100 m you have to swim 100 MERS uh with your hands tied behind your back and your feet tied together and uh it is challenging it is the swim is definitely challenging well I I've struggl with it and I was really struggling with it and and one of those Buzz instructors who was the the meanest instructor you know when he came to officers and just hammering them he uh he just pulled me aside and put me in like he put me in like the 4ot section

it was like B he's Hands and feet tied you just you're going to do your bounty in the four foot section and he just like left me there and then he moved me over to the to the you know 9ft section and it was it was like a it was just like a progression and that really helped me and then actually um one of the other instru remember we had to like you were supposed to so after you do the that you know you you do that Traverse then you were supposed to like you do

like a flip And and and then go down and grab the mask and then you B you you were supposed to do like three flips and then like five bounds and then that was the end of the test and uh one of the instructors on the side was like I I I think I was probably 30 flips in he was like again again again yeah and fin finally that s was started that to help me out came over I was like bin you're good get out of the pool and so it was he uh he

kind Of helped me out but I mean you knew you were going to get get the full benefit on it like no Factor yeah um and uh that was so that that to me was harder than I thought it was going to be for whatever reason and then life saving was life saving was a challeng a kick in the ass man the smallest instructor we had I from so if you remember we had our our uh you had your unconscious victim for the I don't think life saving is like that anymore what do you mean

it's Not like I don't think it's like a past fail evolution like it was like I don't think you can get kicked out of the program remember for us like if you didn't pass it like remember got kicked out and so the the the unconscious victim I got the smallest buds instructor we had he was like probably 150 pounds he was the unconscious victim which means he's laying there I just grabb and haul across the pool and then the the very next one was uh if you Remember this instructor who had started at uh he

played starting linebacker at uh Arizona State University oh yeah I remember how and uh and man he was an awesome instructor I loved him but he he kicked my ass in the like I I swam over to him and realized like he's like save me and I I grabbed him I think it took me was this Scotty Walker yeah yeah yeah I mean we can say his name he's in the buds thing yeah he's in the 234 thing so I don't know if you can say yeah Scotty Was Scotty was hilarious but he he just

like attacked to be underwater and uh it was it was a Giant wrestling match with a what he what he probably went 250 I was like I remember watching that guy when we were doing log PT pick up the [ __ ] log by himself and just start running up the burn with it and I was like holy [ __ ] I remember that too and we were we were all like dude that is that guy's an animal and I got I remember I it it it was probably it it Felt like it felt like

a 20 minute Evolution for me to get him to the side I don't it probably wasn't near that long right but I finally get him theide and I crawled out the combat training tank just outside and I just puked my guts up and then I just and I crawl back in there and it was like the next one the next one the next one so that was that was a tough Evolution um but it was also I mean you also knew that like what was cool about that is there's nobody That I can't save if

I can save if I could save Scotty attacking me you know under those conditions and this monstrous human um and I can get him to the side and fight him the whole way like I could save anybody you know it was and just the training program itself was just awesome yeah do you remember do you remember when Ben do you remember the armpit hair tactic that Ben created I do remember that I had Forgotten about that yeah genius move that was a genius move I uh I don't think that I uh I don't think that

I I can't remember if instructors shave their armpits for that or if they uh if they stop but it was uh he I remember he had what did they call that victim he had like the the passive victim you had the unconscious victim you had the one that's going to fight everything you do basically beat the [ __ ] out of you as You're trying to save them and I I think it was I think it was pranger was it pranger Ben went out to save to save pranger and he just reached all the way

around his chest grabbed a big handful of armpit hair and just yanked it structor was like I'm good I'm good and uh what a genius move dud I remember instructor Nave had me and I didn't even know what a triangle choke was he had me in a triangle choke on the bottom of like 15t section of the combat training Tank I'm like trying to go underwater to get away from him and he just like locks me up in this triangle I'm like down on the bottom man man that was crazy when did you when did

you find out you were going to be the class OIC so in indoc I was the senior guy I was the only officer uh for a little while we had a few officer that end up getting rolled back so I think I was the there were 18 of us in buds class 241 That like started with 241 and made it through a one shot I think I was the only officer from that that group and um and and the the rest of our like 44 guys that graduate you know were roll backs and man thank

God for you guys cuz when you got rolled back in the classic y'all were y'all brought in this like okay we've been here before we understand how to prep for these things because at the time we didn't other than the Discovery Channel show like you don't even know What's coming right the schedule secret you can't it's like you can walk in and ask the instructor that you know so um that was that was massive but I we had several O's that were like rolled in and so um I think when when you got rolled back

into the class um that was uh I got there was there was a senior officer who took that role um through hell week and then shortly after hell week he got um he got rolled out and so then I I became the senior officer again so most of the Class I was the I was a senior officer What did the I mean what do that feel like for you to be the OIC of of I mean that's a lot of a induced pressure I would imagine yeah it it definitely is I mean I think um

it it instantly luckily I'd learned the lesson of like hey I can't do everything I'm here to rely on my uh on my teammates to make this happen right I need to use my senior listed leadership you know if I'm running around trying to count everyone Right that doesn't work right you have to have a and if the lpo the leading Patty officer is doing that that doesn't work we need sway B crew leaders you know you need people in those B Crews that are helping those B crew leaders out this is how decentralized command

actually works um and so I think it was uh that to me was like the the the thing that I was you know I would get uh sometimes people would come up with ideas and say hey let's go ask the Instructors if we can do this or we can do that and you know people wanted to kind of try to cut Corners I I was you know I think I know I frustrated some of the class sometimes I was like yeah we're not going to we're not going to we're not going to expend the leader

ership capital and something like that we're going to just show up when they told us to do it you know we're not going to ask if we can come 1550 minutes later right we're going to like like It's not it's not worth it and I think for people that at that time I know some sometimes particularly some of the O's and Bo cre leaders got frustrated with me um you know with some of that stuff but you have to just I think really prioritize like what you're going to put push back on what you're not

um and and like we we had a phenomenal class I mean it was awesome um and uh it it was um I mean you joining our class was one of my my favorite stories of the whole Thing man with the hoe kickoff yeah yeah that was uh that was that thing yeah I got rolled cuz I failed the first phase exam genius move Sean but it all worked out everything happened for reason it was an awesome class and uh I do think my most memorable experience in buds with uh Leif Babin was the oor wrestling

match when I uh got a little too far out in front my skis and challenged you to a to a to a wrestling match didn't come out on top But uh dude that was so awesome though we uh so we show up to the oor um and uh we show up to the obstacle course and and you know if you don't know anything about the buzz obstacle course it's a notorious obstacle course it's been these these things have been around for a long time all these obstacles are named and before even CrossFit or these kind

of high-intensity you know uh interval training was even a thing um the O course was that right You're going to do seven or eight minutes of like Max put out effort you know when you're done with that thing and then you add the soft sand runs and you know uh to the uh to the demo pits and back um you know that's a mile and a half down mile and a half back um and then and then uh uh and then add a Ruck you know Ruck run you know uh in that soft sand on

top of that for third phase so we were out there for that Evolution and I can't remember what happened like Something got screwed up the schedule got screwed up I know I clear with the Proctor we were supposed to be there but the instructors never showed up and of course there's nothing worse than like bored Bud students standing around so somehow it started with these wrestling matches that were going on and and we had some wrestlers in the class so people were calling each other out like like uh WWE Smackdown style and I remember like

I was just kind of like Trying to stay above The Fray making sure you know CU it's in the sand we didn't want people's head hitting rocks or you know obviously at this point you get injured right you're going to be roll from the pro potentially don't even graduate so I wanted to try to prevent that I was trying to stay above The Fray and all of a sudden you know I got sha out there you like walked out the middle it look it looked like Apollo Creed from the Rocky movie I want you you

you were like bab I want you and like just challenging me I was like okay I guess I got I got no choice here so they like drew a ring in the sand like Kum we had a big rest of match that was that was awesome I think it was probably more of a stalemate than anything but yeah yeah I I stuffed the take I'm pretty sure you choked me out I was I I think I just held you in place until it was like okay let's move on to the next everybody got Bored are

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combat right no one knows um how week was I think it was the fifth week for us going through first phase so we've been in five weeks of indoc we've already been in four weeks You know of of of first phase at that point and I think we started our class um we started with 193 guys and um then I think we started with uh I think we started uh we started whole week with 101 guys so our our automatically was just get already a bunch of people had quit right it's getting whittel down um

and I remember those numbers well because right it was so you're already losing a bunch of people you know in those first few weeks Now hold on let me just I I just 193 guys at one one day or 193 guys in indoc 193 guys in indoc okay is what started with buds class 241 that's what classed up okay the original class now some of those guys left others got rolled back in you know the numbers are kind of switched around and by the time we were in we were about to start hell week um

we had 101 wow so uh we'd already lost you know guys a lot of guys he quit bunch of you know injuries things people Enrolled things like that um but you you were a brown shirt roll back which is like that that coveted brown shirt was was had to be awesome right you made it through through hell week and so if you don't remember right there they actually took our brown shirts and gave us the white shirt back well and I think that's what's so I know people who I know people who uh in the

previous previous years have been given a chance they screwed up something in buzs you know in In in dive phase or third phase and were given a chance to go back and start day one and they're like no thank you I won't do it yeah they they turned down a a c in the SEAL Teams because uh they were not willing to go back and and uh so once you made it through I mean hell week is hell week is uh is close to combat as you're going to get I mean it was designed by

Draper Kaufman and his staff at Fort Pierce back in World War II you know for the for the uh Naval Combat demolition units that were hitting the beaches at Normandy and and uh you know and blowing up all the op me these These are the first waves at Omaha and Utah and they were trying to create as much Mayhem as possible for them uh and so they tried to combine all this training down you know weeks of training into just live continuous 24-hour days these guys have you know up all night no sleep explosions going

off everywhere chaos and Mayhem and just like combat Nobody knows how they're going to do until they get in that situation and I remember just reading the Bible having Bible study um me you were having Bible study totally in buds totally yeah wow Andrew Paul and I on our team uh several others you know we got to issue those Bibles those those little buds Bibles that were uh you know you know in NIV translation and and uh in the in the camo I still have that one man and we we were reading from judges about

the story Of Gideon and the story of Gideon who's this reluctant Warrior like the angel of the Lord appears to Gideon and says hey you're going to go fight the midianites and Gideon's like what are you talking about I'm the least of my family I'm not even the biggest and strongest guy in my whole family you know Midian is so much stronger and more powerful than Israel like what are you talking about I can't do that and and the angel continually assures Gideon that and he says uh some Translation it's it's you know it was

you are a mighty warrior and God is with you and uh the those are just such powerful words you know uh in some translations it's God is with you mighty warrior um and it's you know Gideon is this reluctant Warrior and of course he is empowered to he he he calls out to Israel thousands of people come to the call you know he he has thousands of of uh of Israelite Warriors that have answered the and God says that's too Many people aren't going to believe in the miracle of this so he like whittles it

down to just a few hundred and Gideon goes and and destroys the midianites with just a few hundred Warriors um you know through the power of God and uh and so it was we were reading that verse uh in fact Andrew Paul and I like uh during hell week um you know when when in the darkest hour you know like like the second day like Tuesday night um you know and probably the largest number of Quitters uh I remember quoting that verse to Andrew you know him quoting to me like it was in the middle

of it um in the middle of it yeah like uh I I said uh I told him you're a mighty warrior God is with you now go get back under your bow you know so like those things are those those verses were super powerful to make it through but even then like I'm nervous like I didn't I didn't sleep at all man you know prior prior to Hell Week um like like most People probably didn't you probably didn't before your first hell week and what's crazy is you guys at 240 had like the worst hell

week of all I remember it was like I was I was going into Seal Team 5 because I was Tad there before we classed up actually maybe I was already in IND I can't remember but I was scraping the ice I scraped the ice off of my windshield that was 239 the 239 I would love to take credit for that but I can't but that was class 239 I remember Watching that and I was like it's [ __ ] snowing in San Diego right now and these guys are in the water and uh I was

like holy [ __ ] and I remember watching like all these badass guys just like quitting quitting I guess well two 240 you guys had a huge amount of guys that got pneumonia I think it was a particularly miserable one it certainly wasn't the June hell week that we had which the water wasn't as cold the weather was as cold that Just meant we ran more you know um but you you you definitely went through a tough Hill week for sure in 240 um and uh and so when you got assigned to come back and

that brown shirt you so you get a white shirt you know you got a white shirt you make it through H you get that brown shirt I mean this is a super coveted thing we're all looking at you know you and you know the guys that have made it through like oh man those guys made it through hell week um and we're Talking you know the vast majority of the the 70 to 80% of the people that don't make it through training quit during hell week and so when they took away your brown shirt and

like sent you back you know as a white shirt and I just remember like I was in awe man of like the attitude that you had you were like all right this is what it is like we're going to do it you know and and uh I'm going to go through this thing I'm going To be a team player for 241 I'm going to tell them what I know I'm going to support the team and um you know we're all nervous man we've been up you know for uh for nights on end everyone's kind of

freaking out we're reading these Bible verses they're trying to like strengthen each other and um and and right as they kick off you know they come into the tents and they have an amazing way I I think I hadn't slept for easy 24 hours prior to that just as I Was able to kind of relax enough to like fall asleep for you know 10 minutes right they come in all of a sudden the blank fir is going off they F machine guns and grenade Sims are being thrown and uh and I remember running out there

and we had we had instantly had quitters from the team that had been thinking about it it got to their head and they're they're already ringing the bell within minutes and we're running out to the grinder we're running around and I Remember them calling you out by name and get and pulling you out of the class pass and uh and uh and then and then giving you your brown Shir back and now you got the support uh and it was it was one of the coolest things I ever saw man because there were so many

people who would have been like no way am I doing that I I just did this is supposed toly the toughest military training in the world you're going to make me go through it again and like that's what you were Willing to do and you were a team player the entire time and then even as a brown shirt roll back man you were checking on us you were looking at us you're like hey guys you know you were just strengthening us giving us some encouragement it was free cool man and uh and I remember later

you gave me some photos of all of us just like we look like just you know just just disaster like wet Sandy all like contorted on these C you know three days in when we Get like our first chance to sleep for 45 minutes or an hour whatever and uh you know you but you took taking photos for us like just helping us out looking out for us and uh it was it was awesome man it just was a it was like the consumate team player uh and the person that's going to put the mission

for first and you were like hey they're telling me to do this cool I'm going to do it and even you were you were willing to go into that with such a great Attitude and you could tell the instructor staff was like Fired Up by that and you know the the respect and admiration that they had for you to be to be willing to do that and you were like cuz I don't how much you you were it wasn't immediate right like it was I mean you were running around the grinder yeah we did the

I think we did the whole they they we did the whole breakout and then they they they called me and uh the other two jel first first surf torture Yeah so it was we were probably 45 minutes or an hour of like solid physical beat down at this point you probably are 100% convinced that do the entire next five days of no sleep cuz hul had actually told us like they're probably going to pull you guys out we're like like right before and we're like all right whatever and then I remember seeing him and break

out and I was like they're not [ __ ] pulling us out and uh like he was just playing mind Games with money yeah yeah but um well thank you for saying that man I I will say I think the thing that sticks out the most uh and you were a great [ __ ] Leader by the way I really uh I've really looked up to you you know going through Buds and that means a lot man and uh I had a a terrible mistake in third phase right before right before we were done on

the island ahead at ad with a blank round and uh talk about a one of the most humiliating experiences of my Entire [ __ ] life and uh yeah had an an ad is an is an AC accidental discharge um and I just remember getting called out immediately and I was like [ __ ] man we're like a week away from getting out of here and we're done and I'm probably going to get kicked out and um I don't know what the conversations were you know behind the scenes I never asked but I just I

always respected you for not Making for not making more of a thing out of it and uh cuz it could man that that's you know when you make a mistake like that it's you feel like the entire world's crashing down you know and and uh and uh I've never talked about it before but I haven't thought about that in a long time yeah and uh you know what though Sean like to me like it was failure is the best teacher and and I think that those are the things that uh I can't Imagine that that

helped you as a shooter and as an operator um you know as teaching tactics you know down the road you know those kind of Lessons Learned and and the the weight and pressure after all that you've been through you know weighting on you but for um you know you are always like exactly the kind of person that we wanted in the Seal team like like exactly kind of person I wanted I remember at one point the instructor Staff going through hell week saying like who's not performing in your Bo cre like who's you know always

they're always trying to solicit like info and I I'd always be like me I'm not I'm not performing you know I wasn't going to throw guys in the bus or things like that and then you but you you start to realize like hey they're they they want good people to serve in the SEAL Teams and if if you don't want somebody if you wouldn't want somebody on your platoon You know if you wouldn't want to want to go to a war with somebody then that's like you owe it to the SEAL Teams so like these

guys should be weeded out of the program right that that's what the program is actually for um and uh and so I think uh that was somebody like you were always an absolute standout performer U always somebody that put the team first and and I mean to me like you know I don't think that was ever a question in any of these truers minds And you know uh and and everything I could say positive about you was was always said man cuz you were a go-getter you got things done you're smart you're capable you're talented

you're Innovative you're a hard worker you're a physical putout guy all the time um and you you absolutely the kind of guy you know that uh that I wanted to serve in the Seal team with that other seals you would want to serve with as well and frankly my hat's off to you brother CU I Was 26 years old man I was an old man uh there were a couple guys me um our leing petty offer and and uh a couple of the the our non commmission officers but um man I was I had 26

years of you know maturity experience for for you to do that as an 18-year-old you know to have the maturity uh to train and the discipline to actually train uh and and to put out and to be able to make it the turny brook I I don't think I could have done that at 18 man so um I mean that's To me that's that's what I loved about the SEAL Teams it was always about the guys uh and the quality of the people that I got to serve with and and uh guys like you man

and that's that's what I love most about buds is like hey we might be getting beat on this might be physically punishing but we could look at each other and just laugh about how ridiculous this situation was and and uh or how funny it was or how much we were actually suffering and uh you know that That that's the best of the seal things man yeah yeah yeah I'm with you man and um and you know like I said your reputation preceded you and and went with you everywhere you went and um so moving out

of buds I mean where did you we all get a A Dream sheet where where did you want to go where what team I wanted to be on the west coast you know uh just because I'd been station in San Diego my friends were out there just you know I I I had spent some time on a a Ship during a mid shipment Cruise in in Virginia Beach and and I just I like San Diego you know I I got to know it better my closest friends were there so um I think uh I'd put

West Coast SEAL Teams and I got server selected uh or I say server selected I got selected for I was going to be sent to Sil te one and excuse me the so I got sent to Seal Team One and uh or I had orders to Seal Team One and um that was a problem for me because in their rotation like as you Know I I put on lieutenant in in buds um and so I was already a senior guy what that was going to do was I was GNA I was going to start as

a one-time platoon Commander so I would have had I would have being an assisted Plato Commander under my belt and that was a problem I was going to like instead of you know having having a full workup cycle and deployment as an assisted platoon Commander which will give me some experience in the SEAL Teams and give me Some perspective um I I just didn't think that was good for me it wasn't good for the SEAL Teams and so luckily uh I had some good friends it was my same my same friend that was at Seal

Team 5 and several other friends that were there they went in and talked to the executive officer uh and commanding officer at seel Team 5 um and they pulled some strength for me and got the D to cut me some new ERS so I went to Seal Team 5 and uh as as an assistant Commander so even though I was a I was a lieutenant um I and I never thought of that I got a chance to be a it was the best thing ever happened to me and I'm so thankful for you know my

friends that were there for the senior leaders that were there that pulled strings for me um and made that happen and uh and really opened some doors for me so we got got a chance to go through uh and uh got a chance to serve with some of our our mutual friends ell Elliot you know from Our buds class um who may be Elliot may be the most senior the most significantly wounded living seal like through the the gwad era yeah um you know who got wounded ratti and and TBI you know and uh um

lost his leg wheelchair bound like like you know significant injuries but uh just an amazing guy man and such an awesome dude and um always love like stories from buds I I pull Strays to get him over to Seal Team five and try to stack that Buton he was coming out of you know the 18 Delta uh um combat medic course Special Forces combat medic course that R Corman went to um but it was it was great to be there with Elliot some of the guys that were in you know classes just just before us

and and behind us we'll get into we'll get into deployment cycles and everything that happened but just real quick I mean when you when you pinned your Trident on you've been passed up you didn't get Selected two different times one in the academy one a couple years after the academy then you make it through Straight with no Hang-Ups I mean who was your first phone call when you when you passed buds when you got through my first full call was to to my my dad my dad M who praying praying for me the whole time

and knew that's what I wanted to do and and um you know just wanted to thank them for their love and support you know um and uh all the all The prayers and and uh that was uh I think my dad since got you know disappeared but he had a voicemail for me after after hell week that I called and left for him you know to as well but that was it was a proud moment man and and getting that uh getting that trident um and you and I you know we didn't get pinned together

because that was at sqt during the time but um it I remember remember well Ty Woods who uh was you know our instructor at seal Qualification training that uh he probably probably Pinn your tring on the chest just like he did for me y um as well man that we later lost and and Bazi was an awesome guy um and uh yeah that that that blood pinning ceremony was uh was something that the we we had a full on Navy investigation on uh I had to answer all these questions and oh man really yeah they

were like you know this can't happen this is hazing and and so they the an officer was like like uh Doing an investigation and I was like I was like I was like I wasn't hazing like this is completely voluntary this wasn't hazing in any way she ever perform like I saw that that I saw that as a ritual that was like this is what I wanted to be a part of and so I asked him the investigating officer was like hey did you did you get your triend on he was like that was a

different oh [ __ ] he was a seal yeah I was like that was a different time I was like there was no No hazing whatsoever took place yeah that's awesome man that's awesome well you know I do have one other question and I had no idea you guys were studying the Bible and Buds and you know I think I think um at least for me Faith in general kind of dissipated into nothing uh for for a very long time until recently and uh I'm just curious did you did that stick with you throughout your

entire career man I've fallen so far Sean um I've stumbled you know as much as anyone out there and uh um I'm glad I had the foundation you know built in me I think um uh and by the way man you you're it's I love that you share your faith with people I think that's an incredible thing I don't know how people who have been through dark times in their life make it through without faith man i i people ask me how is it that you're doing okay uh you know and I think knowing that

there is a Creator that's In charge of the universe that has all things planned out and has a plan for each one of us right that that to me is is everything and knowing that you can screw everything up and all you have to do is simply just ask for forgiveness um and and strive to to to uh to follow the righteous path as best you can knowing that we're all going to fall short of the mark you know um but that's all it takes and and I think they're uh that to me is is

is everything and um it's I Think thank God that was instilled to me at an early age I didn't realize or fully appreciate that I went to I went to uh the the the public school I went to a private school at a small like three room Log Cabin Schoolhouse um until I was in like fifth grade and then I went to public school in a in a small you know uh Texas public school and then before my junior I transferred to a a public school or I'm sorry a private a Catholic School in the

the bigger town Of Bulma that was about an hour away in Southeast Texas uh uh and so um you know it was it was the level of Education there I think was going to open some more opportunities for me it was probably easier to get accepted into the Naval Academy you know as as a result of that uh or one of the serveries but it wasn't until I started going to school um and you know I was going to school in in the the Catholic school was outstanding school we had a Religious um class every

semester um and and I was going to to school with kids that had uh had been in a religious class every from kindergarten on you know and I remember so this is my junior year and and is my first ever like religious class because in public school we didn't we didn't have that um but I went to you know Sunday school every Sunday with the the uh First Baptist Church at Woodville I was in involved in the youth group and we we were Constantly my dad would study the Bible and talk about it at home

was constantly something that we referenced and talked about and uh and so I remember the teacher in in in high school in this this um uh my senior Kelly High School asking like in in the the um in in the uh U spiritual class there like uh what is how did the Israelites get to Egypt and and I was like you know I just I was kind of looking around the room I was ready for somebody to jump in and I was Like I was like I just raised my hand and and um I thought

I talked about Joseph the code of Many Colors and you know his brother sold him into slavery and then you know he's uh which is an amazing story from the Bible right Joseph is sold into slavery by his brothers that are jealous of him he goes his brothers think he's dead he goes to Egypt years later um there's a famine in the land of Canaan his brothers bow down before him and are asking for you know For Food Supplies um and and and what he says to him is that you know what you use for

good you know what you uh meant for evil God chose to to use for good and so all the Israelites come and so they they uh and they start to become um you know populace in Egypt they they eventually slave 400 years of slavery uh that results from that in Egypt until Moses leads him out and I was kind of looking around the room like well everyone knows the answer of that Question and afterward people were like dude like what how did you know that and I was like I was like halfway paying attention in

like Baptist Sunday school you know like getting kicked out cuz I was bad and you know cutting up and punching people the back of the head but I realized like like studying the Bible was um that there that had been grained me that that's something my my my family did that's something that we did in church and in my youth group like Opening the word studying the word um and I'm so thankful for that that Foundation um that that was built to me I me there's times when I strayed very very far you know from

that but I I I thank God that that always has brought me back to like the truth right always understanding that there's forgiveness for anything and uh and and that all it takes you know is to uh is to recognize your own failures and flaws that none of us are actually good enough you know to To achieve righteousness on our own and only through the the blood of Jesus can can we do that and and that's all it takes so that to me is um I've shared that with with many people when I talk about

it you know we don't need an openly secular organization ashof BR but um I think there's so many foundations of that are biblically rooted right when it talks to being humble I mean you know that you can't study scripture and not realize like abject humility is like is Is like continually the theme um you know the the the proud will be humbled and the humble will be exalted and and uh and that's throughout the um the scripture in particularly in the in in the New Testament um but uh I I think you know the idea

that like if we got to take ownership of our problems like we're never going to actually be good enough and that's that's what prevents those from you know from achieving salvation so that to me I I think to me Faith is everything and I think having that Foundation that's you know that that's built in um and and study of the word um I try to be like the um Paul talks about the the noble bereans who after he would preach uh to them in the synagogue would study the word to see if these things were

so so right you hear something in a sermon you hear something from a pastor you hear something from somebody in the world we were actually Search the word open of The Bible study scripture make sure that that actually is the truth um and uh and that it's it's it's open for any of us to study and and know but I just you know it's been really cool to to hear about your spiritual journey and and I thank you for sharing that because I think for so many people out there they're trying to find some answer

you know in the secutive world they're trying to find whether it's fame or fortune or money you know power Followers on social media whatever it may be and and and they're never going to find that right that we we all know that uh that that doesn't lead to happiness it is the and I think being grounded in that um by the way have you you ever been to the Palace of Versailles I don't think so so the Palace of Versa I got a chance to go to uh France this summer uh just before the 80th

anniversary of the the Normandy invasions oh man and I did a go Ruck Event there we did the 80 kilometer Ruck you know about 50 mil uh it was brutal man 19 hour get some Evolution uh but awesome to do that with a go team and um but we we went to the Palace of Vera and my wife and I took our kids there and and um you we had Nanny there K came and helped us with the kids and she did some great reporting there and the Palace of verai is probably the greatest Monument

to the idea that money and power and fame and fortune cannot buy you Happiness it is the most magnificent place you could ever go like golden gates and I mean this was the seat of power right for the you know for the for the French Kingdom uh from Louis the 14th who was the Sun King at the height of Fran's power one of the most powerful people in the entire world you know all the way through Louis the 16th who eventually you know he and his wife Marie Antoinette were led to the guillotine and I

think one of the Reasons that happened is because I don't think they had a clue what was going on outside the palace man it is I think they were they're surrounded by people who you can walk around these amazing Gardens and this incredible just ornate um uh Palace that would have just eclipsed it mind pain blowing to think about the power and fame and fortune and influence and you know that was going on this is the reality show right TV all time everybody wants to be a part of and And you just sense that it's

probably the most miserable place you could be right you can't trust anybody everybody's got their agenda everyone's trying to you know uh to undermine the other and it's it's I think it's just a living Monument to that I think it's worth going and worth seeing very you know for that but it's again just leading us back to the faith of like what buys you Happ right it's it's the it's the the the proud will be humbled And the The Humble will be exalted and only through recognizing uh my own failures abject failures and flaws and

weaknesses you know can I actually uh find Salvation you know through uh through through Jesus um and I hope that's something that that others can turn to and see because uh that is uh that is how you you find peace in this world I'm not like extreme wealthy or anything but it but you know I'm working towards it and So doesn't the Bible say something like a rich man has like a [ __ ] it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle yeah what do you think about that yeah these

are those are great questions man I think um uh Abraham was very wealthy right I had massive herds um so did Isaac so did Jacob uh um Joseph became second only to Pharaoh in Egypt you know the most powerful Empire of the the time you know And and the day um I think uh I think God I mean Jo job was you know was given tremendous wealth right that's one of the things that was taken away from him that when Satan was trying to um get him to to curse God so I think there's I

think God um I I I think I think God gives us I think as long as you remember that the it belongs to God it belongs to God and so you can choose that to do good with it you know or you can choose it to be Selfish with it um I think God has given you the means to to to help people uh and uh and I think I kind of like Dave Ramsey's take on it you know that when you have like the the uh you can't help your you can't help anybody else

out right if you came to me and you're like hey Leif I'm having a trouble paying my bills and you know I might lose my house here if I can't pay my mortgage and if I don't have my own finances in order like I can't help you I can't do anything for You so like I need to if if I have my finances in order then I have the ability to actually have the means to help you um it enables me to help other people so I think when it becomes when it becomes the object

of worship as like no no I want more money it's money for the sake of money um I think that's where it becomes a problem and when you know that but it's all man it's all like it's just all dust right it's you can't take any of it with You um I think when people kind of hold that up is like this is what success looks like I think you do have to be careful that it's uh there is you know I think that Jesus talks about the Jewish culture of the day was like Hey

if if someone was poor well that means that God like you know they did something bad if someone was rich then God had blessed them they did something good and Jesus uh threw that on its head like that thinking is not True at all in fact when his disciples uh had asked him you know when he encountered a blind man you know who sinned this man or his parents and Jesus said neither uh this man is blind so that God could be glorified then he healed them you know so I mean I think it's it

just throws out the idea that like you know uh bad things can happen to us at any time right all of this can be um you know can be given and taken away and I think as long as you use the Means that are given to you for good you know to help those in need to help others in need um and that's I love what you're doing that man would like to Veterans advocacy groups um and and bringing people into the foot like not working yourself right so you can actually help people um and

and and get them into the full so they can get taken care of and get the benefits they deserve you know through through the VA um I just think I think those things uh Using the platform that you've been given for good man like that's that's that's you've been given this platform for a reason man God has placed you in that position for a reason yeah and you you can choose to use it for good or ill right and and when you share your faith with people when you try to help those in need and

try to actually reach out to those that are struggling you in hard times like you're using it for good man and that's what I think has Been so awesome about seeing your success man thank you yeah it's just something uh I don't know man I think about it all the time cuz cuz you know I want to want to set future generations of my family up to how you don't get pushed around you know what I mean I in my opinion is is you you you create enough wealth to where you can't be [ __

] pushed around Anymore and that's like something that's really important to me I don't want I just I just don't want to see you look you see all these [ __ ] families and everybody's getting pushed around man p around in their beliefs you know you see it in you see it everywhere and uh and it just like from the I mean it just looks like the people that don't get pushed around are the ones that that work themselves up to be to be wealthy so that they you know they they can Afford to you

know what I mean pull their [ __ ] kids out of school and put them over here and and uh I think there's definitely something to that man right I mean if you if you become uncan you know yeah like uh where where somebody somebody they're trying to put the pressure on you um you know and you could say like BR I'm not going to do that you know or hey I'm gonna oh I yeah that might be a big paycheck um but I'm not actually going To take that sponsorship because I don't want you

dictating what I get to say I'm I'm never I'm never I'm never [ __ ] like that well I think that's what's been awesome and that's what's Driven the success of your show man I mean there's no question in my mind about that like you get to you get to talk to people you want to talk to you don't pull punches you don't like you know you say what you want to say and I I think uh um and not that you're not smart About it or professional about it you know but I think there's

um uh I I think the self-censorship man you were talking about with Joe you know on the Rogan uh joean experience was like that's that's the worst of all right like oh I shouldn't say that cuz someone doesn't want to say that I mean I just think it's I think that's the kind of thing where I think there's enough people pushing back on things now where that Penm is starting to swing back where people are like yeah we've had we've had enough of that yeah I think so too I mean is that something you think

about though build when you're building your business the the the wealth stuff and what the Bible says about totally what was what was the what was the passage again the camel uh it's it's easier for a rich man to pass to the eye of a needle is the is the passage that Jesus talks about now There's some controversy about where that he's talking about a an actual Geographic place or an actual needle himself like what and then he was asked about it his disciples are asked about it he says he's saying it's not impossible and

there clearly are many many you know um uh many examples of uh wealthy people including Joseph of AR arthea who was a wealthy man that Jesus was laid in his tomb Nicodemus who was the one of the Pharisees and and uh Jesus called him the teacher in Israel um in in John where he comes to Jesus by night and asks like you know how do you get to heaven you know how do you be born again um and uh and so those are things that uh these these were these were Believers that were wealthy in

positioned to power and and Ed their their power for good you know interesting yeah it's just you know it's something I always think about and I know Jesus is uh you know all about Family and so if the goal is to you know protect your family with it and everybody around you then I I just don't see how it could be bad but you know I don't know I get wrapped up in these little I struggle with too man I struggle with it too you know as as we started to gain some success um as

well but I mean the cool thing is like you as you're you I mean you've got a growing business right you're you're you're employing people like you're you're Creating livelihood for people you're uh um I think that's that's huge man that builds our economy and uh um you're promoting you know the the sponsors and those companies you know that that employ people I mean those those things all have huge impact so you got to you can't lose track of that I think we live in a society where um you kind of get demonized right of

like success uh and you shouldn't be apologetic for it I think you should be again confident not Cocky right like you confident KN like hey this is what I'm supposed to do this is God's given me the opportunity to do this I'm going to use this platform for good and then I'm going to help people in need if I see someone in need I can help them cool I'm going I'm going to absolutely help them um and I'm going to use that the the means that I've been given for good and I think also again

knowing that like ultimately our faith is not in money or savings or even our Firearm stash as much as I hate to admit that in our house right our faith is in the almighty creator of the universe who's in charge of all things man and uh and even if you lost everything right like job did um you know he's still on the throne he still has a plan um and uh that's that's that's that's where your faith lies you know so a lot of people looking for that right now a lot of people looking for

that it's really uh it's cool to see you know how many People are coming to the word but um well Le let's take a break and uh when we come back we'll pick up at Seal Team 5 join me and my special guests for the next behindth scenes experience exclusively available on vigilance Elite patreon the behind the-scenes footage is raw and uncut this is as close to the set as you can possibly get you can expect anything from off topic conversations Studio tours the final moments before the interview starts and Everything in between the behind

the-scenes content is constantly evolving and will continue to bring you more as we grow you can gain access for just $15 a month exclusively at vigilance Elite patreon all right Leif we're back from the break you're getting into you're uh getting ready to check into sealed team five is a brand new guy but in' 03 and uh so let's just talk about you know what that experience was like checking In let's go to day one yeah it was awesome walk across the the the the quarterback there at Sil Team 5 and um we were in

the old kind of qued Huts you know then and uh we we ended up building like a new building that was all kind of fancy and some of those old Quan dos have been out there since the World War II you know underwater demolition team days U but it was awesome I I knew a bunch of people at still Team 5 it was great to be a new Guy there um there was a bunch of pie pitters there there were people that were just um they had just come back I checked in in I uh

we we came back from Alaska our our winter Warfare training trip which I did in August of 200 uh three which was actually miserable it was like 40 degrees and raining on us you know for a lot of the time uh but we had a great time up there you know on on the we we awesome fishing and uh we came back Excuse me we came back from uh from that and I immediately went on like an elk hunting trip with my dad and uh and my brother we went up to the mountain of Colorado

and and uh went and pursued some some elk with our bows uh and then I came in I checked it Seal Team 5 and the guys were just a couple of people had just come back but the team was deployed so Iraq war had just kicked off and um and so you know Seal Team five had taken over from Team three that had Done kind of the initial Tak down of the the the oil platforms off the coast um and then Seal Team 5 had really gotten into the mix with with the the Das right

the direct action missions the capture kill raids um and they were uh they they started using vehicles and and and and jumping in you know using those Vehicles as like their Mobility element I think they initially had to borrow vehicles from the National Guard unit uh because we didn't have the capability in the SEAL Teams at the time and and so that became like I came back and the guys that were coming back from that deployment started trickling back you know over the um uh in in the fall were were highly experienced I mean they

had more experience than any any seal unit since Vietnam at that point so it's really cool to learn from them and talk about the real world experiences that they were you know that they were uh they Were getting and and um it was just just a lot of great mentors a lot of open up notebooks and asking a lot of questions so what I mean what was it's just such a different experience than you know from what I experienced I mean you're you're going especially going to team I didn't know that they were the kind

of the first ones out the door doing it and um in Iraq and so you know is a as a lieutenant in' 03 I mean we've already Discussed the fact that you were going to have to do a platoon Commander which means you know you're in charge of everyone in the platoon for those that are listening and you were able to you know finagle your way into kind of an aoi or not kind of an aoic slot is what it sounds like so in charge and you're you're you know from your words you're getting ready

to lead men who have the most experience out of The entire Seal Team organization all of Naval special Warfare since Vietnam I mean what is that what is that like for to walk into that you know with with with I mean a junior guy right out of sqt I mean we basically yeah we're seals but we really don't know [ __ ] you know and we haven't really experienced anything other than training and you got these guys coming back who you just mentioned capture kill Missions they're getting after it it it was very intimidating man

I when I graduated buds you know when you and I you and I graduated buzs together you know we felt like hey we just graduated buds like you know we're ready to go take on the world right then you start going into sqt heal qualification training you start getting some of the fundamentals of Close Quarters combat and land Warfare and you know maritime operations you realize man there's a lot I don't know and then you start getting that first workup you're like I don't know anything I know absolutely nothing and then I deployed to combat

you know I deployed to to to Iraq and when I was leading my first combat Mission it's like I know absolutely nothing at all like it's even less than nothing so it definitely was very humbling um it was cool though because there was you know I think just realizing that like hey I can learn from these guys let me talk to Them let me let me understand what what they what they know um I think everyone was trying to like get in the you know into the war effort everyone get got a chance to you

know everyone wanted a chance to go go forward and be in the fight um and for me like right off the bat um our very first training block was uh was the uh our very first training block was uh was the assaults block and uh so we started you know going going through and learning that And you know doing our Close Quarters combat and then we did our we did our our visit board search and easer block um you know shortly there after that and it was um that was uh I I I had had

a bunch of experience boarding ships as we talked about you know in in the Persian Gulf so I'd climb down these ships onto a you know a climb down the the Jacobs ladder right the rope ladder and the plastic rungs that you lower um you know from the side of the ship I've climbed Up and down those things a thousand times and uh in my very first uh vbss training block we're doing some hooking climbs from the 11 meter ribs you know from the from the the special boat team uh Detachment that took us out

we're 13 miles off the coast of San Diego and we're boarding the duty Oiler right it's like 800 foot long uh uh US Navy service ship uh this is the ship that like the other that's refueling the you know the Navy warships and the carriers and uh And so we're 13 miles off the coast of San Diego and um we're doing the hooking climbs uh you know climbing up that little caving ladder just as if as you've done and I remember I was about to walk off the the deck I was like the first down

on the ladder to climb back down onto the rib and we had a guy that was driving the boat they they clearly had a new coxen at the helm like he was somebody was having a tough time you know and you remember what it's like When you're climbing up that little you know caving ladder right you're getting if your boat's going you know uh left and right like you know uh or moving out hauling out from the ship like it's treacherous as you're trying to climb up the 25 ft freeboard and you're bouncing up down

the wave and so we kind of complained about it you know thought this guy can't drive the boat and people were kind of complaining about it but no one no one Said anything I didn't say anything and so um I'm about to climb down so now the caving ladder we climbed up we cleared the ship we took down the bridge and so now we're going to do another run and they threw the the the Jacobs Ladder over the side this big heavy you know rope uh ladder with the plastic RS this is now admin right

we're just climbing down back onto the rib so I'm climbing down this thing and right before I I go one of the trading Detachment Instructors that's running the train he says don't be scared bab and he made some comment like that I'm like whatever you know I just I just like like uh I was like man I've done this a thousand times dude I I I walk out I so I I get down to the bottom run of the ladder at the water line the waves are going up and down the rib comes in as

the rib is about to hul out from the side of the ship I go to step on or as the rib comes in I'm about to go step onto the ship And the rib huls out probably 10 or 12T from the side of the ship and I went right down in between oh uh the rib and the ship and uh it would have been fine and I had positive flotation on we went and did our dip test the combat turning tank you know just like we're supposed to be a positive flotation on um man if

not I'd have been 2,000 fet on the bottom you know off the coast of San Diego out there um but it it was uh I go I got my my leg wrapped up in the Painter line oh [ __ ] so now I'm getting dragged upside down underwater by this 800t long vessel and um and I mean I didn't know what to do I mean this was they're going like 12 knots which is a lot of pressure you know if you're underwater the the and and my leg is like suspended but my body is like

underwater I got my helmet body armor you know radio all that stuff on me Lu we had a weapon shape not a real weapon uh cuz I I ditched that you know as soon As I could I was trying to get to my you know my little scuba bottle the Hees bottle that got just ripped away by the force of the water so I couldn't get to that the rib comes in and just and and there trying to rescue me and they just smashed me between the the rib and the ship and luckily I had

if I had if I had a prot on a plastic helmet I'd have been killed almost certainly would have smashed my head man it uh I had my kevlar on and so it it the the boat Smashed my nose it just kind of like feted my nose open um but uh the rib realized they can't help me so they just kind of hauled off and they were sitting probably 200 yards off the you know off the the quarter just kind of just no one knew what to do the guys on the ladder know what to

do um and I'm I'm you know I'm trying to reach the water every time I tried to get my hand I would just get ripped right back down by the force of the wave so um I I within probably you Know it felt like an hour right it probably was two or three minutes but it uh I very quickly realized like I'm I'm not going to survive this man this is this is over [ __ ] and it just happened like that and it was I just remember thinking what a stupid way to go man

this this is like this is so dumb me I've done this uh a thousand times and uh luckily some heads up guys on the ladder my teammates above me on the ladder they realized you know Climb back they climb back up the Jacob's Ladder and they everyone was kind of just wondering what to do and they started one guy was like hey let's haul this thing and they started holding it in by hand uh and they lifted me I mean that was a massive feat of strength and very heads up you know for them to

do cuz it was a tendency that they hadn't really even thought about um and so they they started hauling the ladder in and As it lifted me up out of the water the painter rope popped free off my leg and I floated down the side of the ship damn and U I mean I could see just blood pouring down my face the the rib uh the so the rib D the let me the rib comes over to pick me up I just float right down the side of the ship they I'm kind of in the

stern wash you know as they come pick me up and they they their faces were white I mean they were like eyes this big I must have just looked Thought you were dead blood just pouring everywhere and and I I I probably looked especially crazy Sean because I had a gigantic smile on my face I was laughing CU I was so I was so happy to be alive man and I I did not think I was GNA live through that and uh I was I was stoked and actually Elliot Miller was the Corman on that

man Elliot treated me and and uh was keeping pressure on my face took me to bboa you know they got me stitched up um I sat out for another Couple weeks till the stitches healed you know and uh damn and got our got our g go plats on gu dude so how did you how did you how did you gain the respect of the of the guys of the seasoned guys coming back from combat man I don't know if I did a great job I'll tell you I learned I made a lot of mistakes and

and as I said earlier like mistakes are the the best teacher and I think so many you know when you ask me like what are you looking for in A leader humility is number one because I think so many of the mistakes that I made particularly early on were when I was really trying to prove myself you know when I was like I need to to show people that I'm a competent leader and I need to show people that I know what I'm doing and I'm in charge of this or you know that and and

I made all kinds of mistakes like that you know instead of actually what you need to do is show people that you're humble what you need To do is show people that you can listen what you need to do is show people that you can lean on the most experienced people um we were lucky we we had a super squared away crew in in our in my first platoon S5 Bravo withon and and uh they were awesome man like it was a great crew of guys we had a stellar crewp of new guys and we

had some some experienced guys that just come back from from combat and uh it was uh and uh we had A we had we we had a uh our platoon was was tough as Nails man because our our our physical training coordinator was Dave Goggins who was all our training and Dave is exactly who who who you see Dave today man it was you could always tell our platoon cuz no one had any skin on their shins cuz we were constantly climbing ropes doing you know hundreds of pull-ups and running like crazy and he organized

all the pts and uh it was good man it was it was a good time all Bet it was good with that guy running it holy [ __ ] man well when did you find out so you check into team five we talked about that when did you find out where you're deploying to we were all fighting to go to chance you know to get a chance to go to Iraq and we we we learned that we were going to get surged you know uh forward with uh they were going to combine uh we were

going to be part of Seal Team 3's deployment so they took They took some of the platoon from Team five and split them up and um and so the plan was to go half of that to Iraq and then half of the Pacific Theater you know to run jets with our our you know Partners um and uh so we knew we were going to go Iraq uh first of all and then all of a sudden the uh you know seals got to handed the the personal security detail mission for the top five interim Iraqi officials

I don't know did you did you get tied up in that for your Uh first one we did well not for my first one with you know we talked about my first one at breakfast when I went to Baghdad we did we were T the whole team was tasked with it and um we had a very just a really [ __ ] cool OIC and uh I don't want to say his name because I don't know what he's doing nowadays he might still be in but um he started farming us out to started farming us

out to Conventional units and uh who are having problems with with with uh the ID Stuff going on and so they yeah they sent us he got us into all these different locations helping training uh and going on operations with with conventional units uh primarily Army units and we would do like a mini workup training course on on sniper operations take the guys out and then get rid of the problem you know kill the bad guys and and uh and so we I never had to do any pts or pts PSD uh personal security details

in Iraq CU he Had farmed us out that's awesome uh yeah well I can't tell you that that I mean having done a bunch of that U on that first appointment um uh for for a few weeks and then on our second appointment to ratti um just seeing you know so much of that war was a defensive War right for those guys that were you know when the when the enemies 70 to 80% of of uh of attacks or IEDs you know roadside bombs and and when there's nothing to shoot back at you know um

and you don't Even know who place it there and you're losing guys and you're hauling your dead and wounded comrades out of the street um there was nothing I think more powerful you know for a morale booster than you know for those conventional units that know the soldiers and Marines were out there in the streets running those convoys knowing that they had frog men on The High Ground snipers that were that had their backs you know and were covering for them so they could move I Think it was it was phenomenal to be able to

do that support those guys yeah and uh and I think it was it was it was just game changer you know and if you think about every every bad guy you eliminated right as more soldiers and Marines are coming home to their families as a result and and uh I don't I don't think we didn't hear enough of it and uh some of the people that criticized us you know later of like that's not a special operations Miss I Was like man you you don't know what you're talking about man this is this is these

Americans are getting killed like whatever we can do to try to help win this thing and help more of them come home with their fam is is what we're going to do it was awesome man I mean you know not only the operations that we did but but we ran into and several of these I've talked about this before and a lot of the guys that a lot of the Conventional guys uh that we worked with emailed in saying hey I was I was the 18-year-old that got that kill that day or or Thanking us

and we ran into uh I think it was I think it was the 10th Mountain guys uh that we worked with they were the first ones we got um collocated with and we ran and they were the last ones that we saw uh we ran into them at the chow hall at the end of The deployment and and uh one of the sniper teams uh that we had trained trained and taken out came up and they were like hey um we've killed x amount of you know more bad guys we have not had any uh

casualties since you guys put us through that and uh we just want to like all of our equipment's different well they've changed everything they took all the recommendations that we had and uh implemented just about everything and and it was just cool to see man like The impact after you're gone you know like we went there these guys were getting blown up like every day um we killed the guys in the first 12 hours I think uh and and then moved on to the next unit and anded like to run into those guys three or

four months later whatever it was and and just to see him like still doing the job effectively probably even more effectively and and taking zero casualties when they were every other Day I it's is [ __ ] cool man you know I mean to I mean how many how many guys are still walking around today that would have been killed had we not gone there and trained with them and then they have kids and their kids will have kids I mean you're when you when that kind of [ __ ] happens like you're not just

saving a lifee it's it's an entire [ __ ] line of lineage you know that it's going to be roaming the Earth Because 16 guys from a seal platoon went and trained with that unit and brought him on a real world operation and it's cool to think about you know that's awesome man that's outstanding and I think you sometimes you know when you when you think what what it's all about and like you know all this loss of life and you know friends that we lost and families that have been destroyed you know in the

wake of it and and even those guys that are seriously wounded as Well right lies are Chang and altered for forever um it's really good to remember that man it's good to remember the impact of that I think it's a little bit like that you know it's kind of like it's a wonderful life right with uh with George Bailey there and getting a chance to see like you know what it would have been like if you didn't do that stuff right and and I think uh I think it's a good reminder man of of the

impact that it has um and it's uh it's just it's so Much bigger than us like for me like I was going to do everything in my power always right to help try to try to bring as many Americans home as we could do everything we could to do as much damage to the enemy as we could um and uh and I think that's that's just an obligation that we all have and and um so for me like it was I was I I was lucky enough we got assigned that that security detail Mission and

the team right before us had been given it um and man that was That was not what we wanted as you remember but I think Blackwater came in with like a a bid it was like $100 million per uh you know per guy and uh the Bush Administration said netive that's too expensive seals you got it um but I think the seeing that like you know two of those guys have been assassinated um you know in the months prior to the SEAL Teams taking over it and so when this is like a no fail mission

where you have to keep these Five interim Iraqi government officials alive I love one of the guys that passed down to to me you know for the previous Seal Team said uh you know we know there's bad guys looking at us we know they're going to try to you they're going to try to take us out at some point our whole goal is just to make them say not today not today they look at us not today and we're going to be you know we're going to be a hard target they're going to look at

us not today We'll try somewhere else we'll go hit some sofware targets somewhere and uh and I thought that was something that always stuck with me um and uh and and the seals did that amazingly well I kept all those guys alive um it was frustrating for me as a as a as a I got to go out with the detail uh every once in a while but most of the time I was assigned to the Tactical Operation Center so I'm in there as the as the liaison officer um you know just Tracking their movements

and kind of setting up their the logistics um not what I wanted to do but it was a job that needed to be done and and I felt like I was probably the best guy you know to be able to do it for my platoon and and help them and support them learned a ton you know about about passing information back to the talk and how they can best support you um and luckily I had a great uh executive officer um uh who uh who sent me out um He tasked 12 of us bunch of

us from uh uh you know from SE team five uh SE team8 got a chance to go uh go and and uh be a part of um some sniper operations up at Samara supporting the uh the Big Red One first INF division up there um you know didn't see a lot of got shot at a few times kind of small little teams kind of you know going through the city little four six-man teams and climbing up on rooftops and trying to do the yeah sneaky frog M Stuff it it was pretty fun you know we

engaged a few guys I think we had one confirmed kill from that and you know a few problems but uh we definitely disrupted the the the the IDS that were being laid and the mins were being put in the street and it also gave me an appreciation you know obviously I love the SEAL Teams man and I'm so proud of the training that we went through and and the guys that we served with but when I flew up to Samara and uh it was funny was we left Baghdad we had 12 guys with us um

it was like 82 degre on the tarmac in Baghdad we landed Samara after a couple other stops it's night time it was 39° I had five guys with no warmies yeah bad and uh and it was like so we're trying to piece together this stuff we're living in this like burned out you know building and I didn't realize you know our guys are complaining about you know Baghdad and they're eating at the AL Rashed you know hotel with the ice sculptures and stuff and I remember jumping in a you know we're rolling around these up

armored vehicles and you know uh and it was a lot of times in and out of the green zone obviously there was Danger I mean people were trying to attack the the guys I'm not saying the wrists were were were were limited but I remember sitting in the cab of a big like 5ton truck there's like you know quarter in steel plates welded on the Back they didn't have doors on the cab it was it was a Arkansas National Guard unit and they're giving us a ride from the Airfield over to like in in the

in the the downtown City Center where there's an Oda team we gonna stay with them and I'm talking to this this you know Arkansas National Guard Soldier I was like man you kind of hanging it out up here I know uh's he's like oh man this baby I've been he's like this Baby's eating about 14 RPGs at this Point yeah she's my good little charm and I I was just like man here we are like like these dudes are out here roughing it right they're in the they're in the fight they're getting attacked all the

time they don't have near the equipment that we have they don't have near the train that we have and uh that that to me was like like I'm going to do everything I can to help every Americans on the ground here in every way that I could possibly yeah you yeah I thought You were going to say he looked at you and said I'm not the one hanging it out that's your vehicle but but yeah it was pretty Bare Bones there at the beginning but um but um well when when did when did ellot get

hurt was it this platoon it was it was the next platoon so he he stayed in that same platoon I rotated to a different Plato Seal Team 3 we came we we ended up getting rotated Out of Iraq so we went up to Samara for like three three weeks then we came back did you know our turnover and then we we did the the relief in place you know between the squadrons um and so we got sent to the Pacific Theater so we went around doing the J sets with the Royal Thai seals and and

the Republic of Korea seals and and um uh excuse me we spent a little time in okanawa you know just just I got I got to see a different Theater got to train a little bit SP bu time Guam surfing and partying and and and and basically we just trained like mad man the whole time and and got in really good shape um and uh and and we're itching for a chance to go back you know so I came back with Sil Team 5 and luckily uh my commanding officer at se Team 5 at the

time he he said you're you're going to se team 3 and I was I was so pissed about that Sean like I was like these are my guys I want to take Over this platoon I want to be their platoon commander and um and you know he was detached from this and he said look you're you're already senior it's it's important that you you'll be 6 months ahead in the workup cycle um you know that that you you deploy so that you'll be eligible you know uh for promotion down the road and like this is

best for your career path and I was like I I pitched a fit about it man I was like are you kidding me you know like I Was I was the kind of the argumented push back type and he was like nope it's happening you're going to Seal Team 3 and uh and thank God he did that man because I love those guys at Seal Team 5 they were awesome and still some of my closest friends in the world um and they relieved Us in ratti um but thank God I got a has to go

serve in tassi a Bruiser Sil team 3 and so I I showed up uh at the end of that appointment I came back did did a little you know got got a Little bit of of uh a leave and then went straight to se team 3 checked in as the platoon Commander uh got assigned as Charlie platoon we heard about this guy jao willink who was our our uh platoon our task unit Commander he was in charge and and I had heard about jao I'd never seen jao I didn't know anything about Jo um what

did you hear about him I heard he was pretty intense uh I he was a uh my platoon Chief Tony fratty was uh phenomenal phenomenal seal uh and uh I I Think probably one of the best seal Chiefs that one of the best platoon Chiefs that the seal teams has ever produced no kidding like like phenomenal Battlefield leader wow I'm talking like hey we're taking massive fire from that building across the street give me two guys on on me let's go wow and like he is absolutely the guy that you want in in a gunfight

you know um and and so he was like he was like you know he had a Reputation Tony everyone loved Tony been around for a long time and and uh he'd been busted down like you know multiple times for you know Shenanigans and you know just old old school you know teams teams and and uh uh and so here he is in the platoon ship he's like he's like trust me Joo is the one guy that we want as our tasking the commander I was like all right um and then when uh so when Jo

jao had been the Admiral's age um so he got assigned as the Admiral's Aid and he gets he he he comes over and when I met it for the first time you know Seth Stone our brother from uh you know from buds he was the delt platoon Commander so we we were platoon commanders together we had a bunch of guys from our buds class in there you know as well I knew a ton of these guys I've been deployed with Hill team 3 just before this so I I got to meet Chris Kyle and and

some of the other guys you know just just prior to that they've Been in Baghdad doing a bunch of sniper Ops on you know Hy Street and supporting the fu offensive you know that went down um while we while we were deployed you know in in uh the fall of 2004 and so now we're here in the spring of 2005 standing this the up the task unit and so Joo shows up and I was like man this Dude Looks Like An Axe Murderer he doesn't smile at us he just walks up like just mean mugs

like hi I'm Joo like no smile whatsoever and like Just walks away and and dude you remember Stoner like you know who he was emotional guy man I love ster uh so much and he he was like that dude hates me man I can see it you know he's like and uh and and and I I was like hey man listen I hear he's the guy that we want I was like let's we knew he trained Jiu-Jitsu you know we knew uh he just got his black belt um you know he's a big Jiu-Jitsu guy

like we knew he had a Ton of operations you know he'd come from Seal Team 7 as a commander he had a bunch of operations uh that he done and um so he probably had as much experience as anybody in teams at that point and um and so I was like hey man come on let's just let's work hard let's train Jiu-Jitsu you know and uh after a couple months like yeah Seth and Jo end up being like super close friends so uh in fact I think you know it was uh Seth was probably the

little little brother that That jao never had you know to Joo and and um but jao was like I I he set the tone for our entire task in it we had an awesome crew of pip pitters in there man they were they were excellent they came they were just coming back from Iraq lot of uh uh a lot of experience you know Chris Kyle was our lead sniper app Point man and and uh he had a ton of experience coming from fua coming from H Street some of the other places in in Baghdad um

and then the new guys that we Got in were were were studs too man you know we sent them to schools it was an awesome team and um but jao really set the toe for our entire team and and of like hey right away he was like right away he was like we're not tasking a Bravo we're tasking a Bruiser and I was interesting so you know we had three task units ABC right alpha bravo charlie and The Fanatic alphabet and I was like I thought that was weird for like 24 hours like tasking a

Bruiser and Then like 24 hours later we're like we're tasking a Bruiser so like it was actually I I learned later this is something that he got from uh a book uh by a US Army a retired Colonel named David hackworth called the bout face and if you haven't read this book it is a phenomenal pH phal book uh hackworth joined the the Army when he was a fridy he he lied on his paperwork and listed when he was 17 to try to make it into World War II just Missed World War II but was

brought up to the ranks um as uh you know learned from all his mentors who had just just you know defeated the Germans and Japanese in World War II and then he served in Korea uh and was eventually you know uh commissioned as an officer made it up to Colonel uh multiple deployments to to Korea multiple deployments to Vietnam um I think he was the when he died he died in the early 2000s I think I think it might have been While we were deployed to Iraq that first time and uh I think he was

the he was the the highest uh the most decorated like living soldier at the time wow um I'm at like crazy crazy Awards but like they called him like Mr infantry and it's so much of he changed the names of his units um interesting yeah give them like a personality so you know I'm going to I'm just going to Tas unit Bruiser is like a legendary unit and uh you just you don't Hear look there's no other there's no other task unit that has a that has a call sign that I'm aware of you hear

people talk about task unit Bruiser all over the place uh it I don't know a whole lot about it other than the reputation but I mean it seems like you guys have really created or did create like some type of of like very strong culture in that platoon the culture was massively strong you know in In har platoon Charlie platoon and Del platoon platoon you know and the entire task in it and uh you know those two 60-man seal platoon and a fiveman he quarter home The Jock was in charge of that we started out

with and and he said the tone right from the beginning like we're tasking a Bruiser we're going work harder than everybody else we're going to train harder than everybody else we're going to be ready for the worst case scenarios you know on the Battlefield um and that that was the culture of of our team and what's interesting about jao is you look at him and he's got this like super Stern kind of look to him but he he actually and even though he didn't smile at us for the first couple months that we were together

in fact the the first time we we were all training Jiu-Jitsu we'd come in at 5 o'clock in the morning train J jitu he lay mats out in the uh in the high Bay at se team 3 it was mandatory For all the officers and we had a bunch of inlisted guys that would come in and train too um and you could tell us at at officer call you know the morning meeting because you you'd say you know if you said like hey Le or hey Seth like everyone would kind of turn their head like

their whole body cuz their necks are all like jacked up CU we're like cranking on each other and hurting each other and everyone's going just full bore lever 19 Berserker mode but the First time that I realized that Joo was like actually you know not super serious all the time like I'm demo he's like demo on a Jiu-Jitsu move at 5:00 in the morning we're in the high Bay he's like he's like Babin get over here you know he's like grab my hand yeah my other hand yeah my other hand and he's like B your

Sensei B to your Sensei and I I'm like wait that's Napoleon Dynam he's he's quoting Rex quondo from Napoleon Dynam but he's doing it with a straight Face and he's not like he doesn't even smile and I'm like okay this dude's joking around so like that was the first time I got to see you know Jo who's totally like totally jokes around all the you know like and his obviously professional when he needs to but what I think what Joo did for us was I think Channel like aggression and and guys that wanted to go

get after into like he he he really taught me to be what we call an front of the silent leader that Like that's what good leadership looks like like you would look at someone like jao if think joo's in charge Joo was a prior enlisted seal joo's got more comid experience and you know anybody else here so he's going to dictate everything and run everything and tell you what to do and he did the complete opposite it was he said hey here's the goal why don't you come up with a plan and tell me how

you want to do it you know and it was it was the first time that I saw Like we' roll out on operations where he doesn't he doesn't say anything he's letting the team run it so I realized that's what I need to do as a leader is let my team step up and lead and uh and so when my team is leading now I can look up and out right every leader should be trying to look up and out down the road now so instead of me solving the immediate tactical problem I'm thinking about

the next step or the next step The Next Step Beyond that you're Thinking about the long-term strategic problems you know down the road and that's what every leader should be trying to do and you know Joo also he used what we call the indirect approach which is you know instead of saying Hey listen you know me I had one platoon under my belt didn't really have I had a handful of combat operations I had zero da missions right capture kill raids at that point zero um Seth had done a couple of them you know i'

done a Handful of sniper uh operations well I didn't have any I didn't really have any experience and you know but instead of instead of saying you know for us when when when the training Detachment instructors who obviously drive a very high standard of performance when they would say things like uh hey you guys are good to go you met the standard you know we're out here at L Warfare okay your Patrol is good to go hey your your your immediate action Drills when react a contract and you know uh those those are good to

go hey you guys can take it back to the camp instead of Jaco saying like you Knuckleheads aren't as good as you think you are combat is harder than you think it is you know we're going to keep pushing the standard even higher we're going to do this again he actually he actually just called us over and he said hey Le Stoner um do you think we're ready for the worst case scenario on the Battlefield and we like looked at each other and like no man no let's do another run let's do another run after

that let's do three more runs and it was us doing it it was if we' have said yes he would have been cool sounds good let's go back to the camp but he he just and he would ask us an Earnest question right a question that he wanted the answer to um and let us reveal the truth of ourselves and I think it's such a powerful leadership concept instead of You know this works on your kids right this works on this works with your spouse with members of your community with your team at work anywhere

in life when you can ask someone a question and and allow them to reveal the truth to themselves instead of trying to just bash them over the head with the truth CU what good is telling people the truth if they don't listen mhm M but when when when you can ask someone a question like that now it's it's not Joo saying do two More runs that everyone's complaining about it's it's actually me saying we needed two more runs so that we're ready for that worst case scenario and talking that over my poal they understand it

as well and I think there was that was a kind of culture that became part of the team of like hey we have to be ready for the absolute worst gift SC erio that we might come up against um and uh and so I think that was it was a culture of always striving to do better and Immediately I think what what set our ask unit apart was in my previous task unit it was kind of like most steal task units where we did we had some really talented people we had some experienced people we

did some things well we did some things not so well but the things that we didn't do well when when training Detachment was say hey you should improve on this there was push back you know we were kind of like H I'd like to see them do better yeah like We're good to go we'll play the game and just get through this and get oversease and inas a Bruiser wasn't like that it was it was we were our own harshest critic it was was really critiquing ourselves and when these trending instructors said hey look your

headcounts are taking too long you need to figure out a way to be more efficient we're like absolutely let's let's figure this out let's work on that um and we were our own harshest critic we're Always trying to get better and improve all the time and that became the culture of the team whether you're a brand new guy you know that was trying to contribute in some way to you know managing your fire team you know all the way up to me as the platoon Commander to Joo as the the task commander and and figuring

out ways to be more efficient and effective all the time and uh and I think that's the strength of the SEAL Teams right is always that Innovation That that I like always trying to get better in what we're trying to do always trying to prove and and seeking inputs from from everybody no matter if they're in a leadership position or if they're simply just a a a shooter you know who's in charge of just themselves and their piece of the mission I think when you've got a when that becomes the culture of the team that

makes all the difference you got a team that's constantly improving constantly learning constantly Growing we made all kinds of mistakes and task Bruiser we screwed all kinds of stuff up um but we learned for those mistakes and we would Implement solutions to try to fix them and prevent them from happening going forward I mean are we ready for the worst case scenario that is a that's a tough question was there ever a yes I don't think so I think we were honest enough with ourselves right to know like hey man I've never been in the

Worst case scenario mhm so are you ready for it like are you going to be ready for it and I I think you know when you show up to something then you're overtrained like hey we didn't need to train that hard cool it's easy you know it's easy like that's um no F like that's what you want it to be you know if you can make training harder than actual combat like that's that's the way that's awesome that's ideal um you know and that's one of the lessons that we Brought back to ratti you know

with us you know after we deployed if you to ask me if you to ask me uh as young Lieutenant Leif Babin Charlie Bon commander and taskin Bruiser hey Leif are you going to be in you know do you think you'll get in a Blue on Blue like Friendly Fire situation and I tell you like that happens to losers who don't know how to plan escu Missions and you know the book is stream ownership like that's chapter one that's chapter one the very first major combat operation and I was a part of massive Blue on

Blue massive blue and blue issue and and and and you know we talked about before like the idea that like we had to if we didn't take Extreme Measures to mitigate the risk of that happening like it was absolutely going to happen particularly in the urban environment where there's it's confusing with so Many different units that are out there particularly with our seal snipers that were going out under cover of Darkness beyond the Ford line of advance and you've got you know uh US tanks and Humvees and and units that are coming into an enemy-held

area and they're getting shot at by enemy Fighters you know it just the idea that like that is absolutely going to happen unless you take massive steps to mitigate the risk uh of it happening and and it was it was Just one of those things where like I just realized like combat is so much harder than I thought it was ever going to be and and those things can happen so much easier than you ever thought it could be and once you're in it you can't just can't just peek your you know if you're taking

effective fire man you can't just peek your head up over the wall and say hey who's shooting at us you know like your head's going to be gone that's going to be the end of you So um if you're getting Sur pressed uh man that's that's all you can do you know and I think it's uh you know we had we had such a close call in that first that first situation where we had about that whole Squad of my guys um on that operation uh let's rewind real quick so this is your first operation

that was the first operation first kinetic operation of the deployment let's just walk what were you guys doing what was the op yeah if you Maybe it's better good to back up to talk about what it was like to arrive in Rat and and um you know and start there um when we we were we were we thought we were going to go work with the you know with the ictf you know and Baghdad and and do the the uh this highspeed Iraqi Commando unit that probably had the most training right of any any uh

um any Iraqi unit out there um and that's what we thought we're going to do we're going to do go do these kinetic operations was Going to be super phone we were excited about it everyone left to go on predeployment leave and while we were on predeployment leave we got a change of orders they decided to consolidate the two different squadrons that were deploying and we found out we're going to ratti so at the time ratti was just a violent hell ho I mean it was the it was uh it was it was a city

of 400,000 people it's the capital of anbar Province uh and it's a Fracture the size of bag I think the the whole greater area of Baghdad has something like two and a half or three million people you know in Baghdad there would be more significant attacks right or enemy attacks that happened in and around the city of rad this small city of 400,000 people just a a few miles across the city center there would be as many or more attacks in ratti on a daily basis if there wer why why was ratti such a strategic

location I I think it Was after the it was in the heart of the Sunni triangle right and it was the largest it's the capital of vbar province which is the the the Sunni Capital so this is where the uh saddam's kind of base of support and operations were um so I think there was a lot of support for for Saddam and the Insurgency that came out of there I think after the Marines smashed fuia in 2004 um many of the the fighters that were there fled and went to ratti and so So you know

from like late 2004 into 2005 raditi was uh was was just really the most violent place in Iraq Zara you know who was the leader of the of al-Qaeda in Iraq at the time had declared that that ramadi was the the capital of his caliphate and he was going to establish the capital there in radi U there was something like 3 to 5,000 um Insurgent Fighters that controlled most of the city uh and when we arrived in April of 2006 um it was Man it was um I think I landed on the ground it was

like April 3rd 2006 it was it was instantly um it was apparent that this was a very different deployment than the one I've been on previously um and I've been hearing about ramati you know we you know You' hear every day in the news you'd hear like you know three US soldiers killed in armar Province or two marines wounded in armar Province and most of those were coming in and around the city of veratti um I I think Alar Province was was accounting for something like 70% of us casualties in Iraq at the time um

throughout most of 2005 and 2006 and most of those were coming in around so it was it was just a violent Terror stronghold and um when we got when we arrived there um right away I mean even in bdad like there's you're flying around in a helicopter and you know like if you flew over ratti in the daytime like you're getting shot down out of the Sky like no one was doing that yeah um so it was it was like vehicle convoys and it was um every single week there were Memorial Services going on and

at the camp uh um it was uh there were US Marines and soldiers getting wounded or killed almost every day damn almost every day and uh and multiple times I remember there would be like a call of a loudspeaker for like like a a a mass like blood drive you know come give blood uh you know for a mass cash Situation happen I mean there were people killed on base in the chow hall with mortar sit in the base um you know before he even left the base and when we were driving so the seals

working have a place they called Shark base it was like an old like Republican guard uh effort and after Mark Lee was killed we we renamed it Camp Mark Lee uh but it was kind of on the edge of armatti like right on the Euphrates river and um in order to get there you had to drive to Drive off the main camp and it was still kind of Behind the Walls of the camp um but uh but there was there was a uh you would drive through what they call the vehicle graveyard and the vehicle

graveyard was you know these these these vehicles that would had IDs Humvees tanks Bradley fight vehicles uh they would they would drag these these Twisted burnt Hulks and just they would just leave them out here in this kind of you know it was just kind of a kind of a Junkyard area and uh man it was a powerful reminder of what was out there waiting for you every time but you're going you're going to uh um you you're you're driving past that every single time you're launch on operation um driving to that vehicle graveyard just

knowing that those Twisted charred honks of metal that used to be a vehicle you know almost all those had you know soldiers or marines that were killed or wounded them and um and then the you Know the gates were like a it was it was a m88 uh which is like a it's basically like a tow drop for tanks I mean these things weigh you know a tank weighs 70 tons you know an M1 a tank uh and that's what they had blocking the gate because it was such a threat of like a you know

massive Ed threat coming in um and people would be attack in the camp and I've been on the ground for probably about a week there uh we turned over With uh a crew from Seal Team 2 outstanding crew there and they had built awesome relationships they trained a bunch of the Iraqi units and they were doing a ton of operations um but it was kind of mostly on the outskirts of the city because there was no us presence inside the city except for the Marine bases that controlled uh and the 10 first Airborne uh first

the 506 uh uh Battalion that controlled um Task Force Red Curry control like the eastern part Of the city and the Marines from 38 Marines control the uh uh the the uh Main route to the city that was called route Michigan and about every kilometer the the Marines had a had a base there and even still even though we controlled that road that road throughout our six-month deployment there was overwhelmingly the most heavily attacked Road in all of Iraq it had 7 to 10 IEDs uh on average in every any 24-hour period This is a

road that we controlled So like US forces control that road every kilometer there there's a marine or Army checkpoint um and so I mean it was just it was Non-Stop you know combat that was going on all the time nasty when we showed up it just it was I was just in awe of the soldiers and marines that were there and uh and the fight there was a there was a National Guard unit that was on the ground um and seeing these National Guard you know the National Guard man they they they don't Have they

have a fraction of the training and equipment that we have um this was the 228 the second Brigade 28 Infantry Division the iron soldiers based out of Pennsylvania and uh and they had they had National Guard from really all had some Utah National Guard Vermont National Guard Pennsylvania National Guard um and these guys had you know they're part-time soldiers um and they they many of them had been on the ground for over a year at that point and I mean these these guys were hardened combat Warriors and sometimes they they I'd show up and and

the SE Team 2 you know would introduce us and and they you know they'd look at us and our highpe little 10in barrel m4s and our our gear and you know we had better night vision and lasers and stuff like that and they're looking back at us like like oh man look at look at that look at the seals they've got you know these guys have all this cool gadgetry and I I just You know for me Sean I was like man this National Guard Soldier you know who's probably 19 years old has fired more

rounds through his weapon in his year here than all of us put together ever going to fire in our entire careers Dam um and I mean they they they were just in the thick of the fight the entire time um the Marines that were Manning the uh the the checkpoints to that City and particularly ones at the government center that was kilo company 3A Marines Awesome unit of Marines we worked really closely with uh with their Lima Company uh kilo company and and uh India companies and man they were they were freaking awesome and the

the government center was taken uh an opva which is named after like the Veterans Administration um uh building that was it was like an Iraqi veterans administration building I guess um under in the Saddam era but those two they would they get hit once a week by 50 100 Insurgents attacking from three different directions hitting them with you know a dozen belt fed machine guns at the same time lobing mortars in the super accurate mortar fire and then somebody trying to drive a 5,000lb v bit into their position I mean it was it was every

week wow for them and uh so we just you know when we showed up there it was like man how can we help these guys what can we do to help in any way that we can um and uh and so we just decided To get to work you know so what was the work the work was what can we do you know what is our part of this Mission and uh and for us um it was number one seal snipers just like the work that you were doing we can take our guys we could

take a pretty small group and right away we we were told there was red areas on the map that were like don't go there these are Al-Qaeda this is Al-Qaeda and Iraq battle space and if you go there you're all going to get killed nobody Can even come recover your body um and so we realized like hey that's the enemy Safe Haven like is there a way that we can get into these safe havens and and mitigate the risk of being overrun you know by 100 enemy Fighters and so what we what we did was

uh we started kind of on the edges of the city you know pushing in with some of the marine and and army patrols but setting up sniper OverWatch position we go in undercover of Darkness set up on the rooftops of Buildings uh in the windows where they wouldn't be expecting us to be um and and you know if you were in a bad area that they had no uh us presence before and all of a sudden when the you know first call of the prayer goes down and you know the sun rises and the city's

moving around me you got you got enemy Fighters moving around with RPGs and belf fed machine guns and starting to coordinate attacks on you know nearby fr the patrols and and outposts and it was Just a shooting gallery for the the snipers so you so you could actually sit in an op in an area that was black and see the enemy combatants forming up to go outside of that area to to engage and uh Ambush US forces definitely multiple times yeah many many times and and uh in the daytime Well we'd be in there we

we' sneak in at night time and and and try to be hidden as best we could you know in a position and what we did though was we adjusted you know the the my idea Before of a sniper mission was like a little small like Twan fourman element six-man element man these elements when you're going in there we had to have you know we go in with a 30 man hel and lock down like a four-story apartment building particularly it didn't start you know initially we started working on the outside edges of the city and

then once the US forces started establishing these these uh combat Outpost they'd build a Ford operating base right in the Enemy n Health neighborhood a permanent for uh uh Outpost that they could work out up bring Iraqi Soldiers with them often times what we do is be the first US troops on the ground for that so we sneaking under cover of darkness and the ID threat was the biggest threat so how do we mitigate the risk of that well we would foot patrol so I mean it was throw everything on your back we're carrying Carl

gustof you know shoulder fired Rockets we're carrying 40 MIM grenades We're carrying um we multiple belt fed machine guns every Squad multiple belt F machine guns um because we had to be ready you know we we would take the the minimum force that we would take usually was at least a squad of seals uh because that way I at least had two fire team elements that could bound and if we're going into a super hot area it would be double that um it' be like a guys or even more so you so you guys are

running 30 man teams and would those Teams so so maybe 18 or 20 of those guys would be seals plus uh EOD you know our bomb our e bomb technitions were phenomenal um and we're we're absolutely you know part of our critical part of our team just like the ones you worked with and and we had some awesome Shooters too man that they could do both um and uh they're they're um so we also had uh we'd also sometimes we would plus up with squads from uh uh convential uh Army units or or Marine units

as well just cuz we wanted to have some more Americans out there with us uh and we we'd always have Iraqi solders so um you know we might have 12 15 20 Iraqis with us I did not uh look those guys were out there risking their lives I did not count on them in the gunfight so you know when it was we saw that too many times that when you know if you got a 100 enemy Fighters trying to overrun your position like you are the only Thing that's going to save you is Americans and

uh and the things that saved us was Americans with belf machine guns those machine Gunners carrying the the you know the the Mark 48 you know 762 b f machine gun and the Mark 46 556 belf F machine gun those guys saved Our Lives over and over and over again just be back attacks um preventing us from being overrun if we're on if we were on Patrol um with our rackis you know if we're getting attacked like enabling us To be able to keep the enemy's head down so we could get off the street landay

out cover fire for us um I mean I just I I talked to those Vietnam seals about how much they love their machine Gunners you know that were carrying the stoner machine Gunners and the m 60sn and how that would enable them to push deep into Viet Kong territory where nobody could come get them and the only qrf you know a lot of those Vietnam guys had working in like the rung sat and Places like that in the in the the the MOG Del to in Vietnam was like another seven-man seal Squad and and they

had some you know maybe some uh um they had Seawolf you know the helicopters that were suborn overhead and some aircraft but those machine Gunners kept them alive and it was the exact same thing for us and taskin Bruiser uh those machine Gunners like Mark Lee and Ryan job and and all those guys carrying the heavy Bel fit machine G Jake our mutual You know buds classmate man he was those guys were awesome and uh you know caring so cuz you're full patrolling in every time and so they're carrying massive heavy weight um and real

quick let me I want to get into some specific examples of how they how effective the the the aw the automatic weapons guys were but from let's let's look at a bigger picture real quick so from for ratti what was the what was the overall mission not just of tasking at Bruiser but what was The overall mission was it to was it to infiltrate and occupy and the City take it from AQ Al-Qaeda that's a it's a fantastic question man I think what's interesting about it is um never did I see a time where the

generals in Baghdad or someone from the Pentagon came and said here's your mission ratti and so the guys in ratti figured out what that mission should be they were Clos to the problem uh and the the Brigade Colonel that was in charge you know the the Colonel and his staff that were in charge of that National Guard unit they got they got uh um relieved by uh about a month in our deployment by the ready first brigade combat team of the First Armor division um and those guys were brought in tanks and Firepower but they

brought in a a a a perspective on that as well about what that mission should be uh Colonel Shawn McFarland was the guy in charge um and his staff were just they were phenomenal man and uh we uh we Love that National guardian and two those guys were outstanding but the the the the ready first we get combat team is who I spent the bulk of that deployment with you know helping them many of the Marine units and the uh that Task Force Red Curry he that one of first Airborne unit those guys stuck around

as well for for much of that our deployment um and uh but they they they what they realized was the mission radi was to stabilize the city secure the Local populace and ultimately lower the level of violence that was the goal that was the goal and I think if you you know I think for so long if You' asked a seal if You' asked me you know my first opponent like what's your what's the seal mission in you know in Iraq what are you trying to do I said kill bad guys mhm and I think

something that Joo really recognized is like look either US forces win in ratti and we all win or US forces lose and and we all lose and it Doesn't matter how many bad guys we kill or capture it doesn't matter how many operations we conducted if US forces lose here we all lose so what we have to do is help us forces win and we understood that that was the mission was to stabilize the city secure the local populace low level of violence and we realized our part of that was to um take a small

element that was very heavily armed I say small right it made it might have been as many as 30 guys if You're locking down a four-story you know apartment building uh and many times we try to put two elements in that were mutually supporting one another because there's nothing stronger than mutually supporting OverWatch positions with interlocking fields of fire I mean that's how you're going to defeat an enemy that way outnumbers you when they're trying to come and attack your position when your other that other position could cover Move You Know cover For you uh

and you can cover for them you know as well um but we that's how we mitigated the risk of going into some of those areas uh and we knew that we could take a fairly small group of guys with a lot of Firepower carrying the shoulder fired Rockets carrying the belt fed machine guns you know carrying the 40 mik m grenades you know jtx with aircraft supporting us overhead uh we had artillery battery the artillery battery in raditi fired uh I think they Fired over 5,000 rounds wow from their 155 batteries so when you're when

you're going out with 30 guys are you breaking them up into 15 Twan teams and putting them in different locations seven fourman teams all in in in one location sometimes but what what we typically would do uh we would we would uh I like to be in multiple locations so we can us to support one another we also found though that when um when we teamed up a lot of these operations we were the very First US troops on the ground we would even go in and do some reconnaissance in the area um and as

a as frog men right the the river the afres river runs right through rad and there's a there's a havania canal kind of breaks off from there as well so we had access to much of the city and there was a there was a badass Marine Boat unit there called the dam support unit they had these cir boats uh these small uh small unit riverine craft they could stand for but It kind of like a rib uh kind of like a combination between like a rib and a sock are and uh so we teamed up

with those guys man they would they would we sneak in there at night time totally blacked out um and uh you know night vision and they just drop us off in the bank no one have any idea we were in there no [ __ ] you guys would do a water insertion at night did a ton of them to do a reconnaissance to what find your find where your sniper hides and noes Are going to be find out where they would be do reconnaissance of the area you know engage ID layers which we often did

um and then and then we we use that as an insertion platform uh go in there at night time Jump Off on the beach full Patrol in um so we we could set up a sniper you know our sniper Heights and so we would often times take down the buildings or buildings near those buildings that would eventually be the the the the comet Outpost so would you Would you insert guys they would they would Infiltrate The Ops and then the rest of the team would come and link up later or would you xfill back out

of the the the location that you're at and then get the rest of the team and then go back in sometimes we did Ron's missions where we'd go in and kind of just probe and do a little Recon and then come back and kind of use that as part of planning you know you have to hit multiple buildings they don't know exactly where You're going try to go into different areas and do some misdirection stuff um but uh usually what we do excuse me usually what we do is is an insertion method would we would

we would go in there and set up in the the Cyber HDE and try to get in position before the first call to prayer you know so we get in position by you know uh by daylight um then we would start to like we we would want to try try to get some long AIS looks down you know some of the the Main uh the main Avenues of approach um and then usually we would be so we would wait uh until uh oftentimes the you know the the first the some of those some of those

larger operations you're talking over a thousand soldiers and Marines On The Ground 50 tanks dozens and dozens of heavy um you know uh engineering vehicles I mean they're they're Trucking in you know 70,000 sandbags to you know uh multiple semi truckloads of uh you know Jersey barriers and and tasd barri You know those giant concrete barriers that try to you know concertina wire rolls to like reinforce these positions because you know you're going to get attacked I mean they're coming um and that's usually where we could we could really help those guys is so we

would set up and cover for them as they infiltrated and there multiple T I remember like okay so you would so you would know I'm just trying to wrap my head around the the overall motion so so You would know where the conventional units are setting up then you would conduct reconnaissance around that specific area find the best vantage points and then and then set the Ops well sometimes we would conduct a reconnaissance provided to the the conventional units to to maybe recom made a recommendation where they could set up you know um or take

them with us you know on those reconnaissance missions and then we would plan that Thing out um and we became like their go to as far as like you know they they realize the effectiveness of seal snipers um and what we could do for them um you know to disrupt attacks because you know they're super vulnerable right when they're trying before there's any they're just out there these neighborhoods they're getting shot at you've got you know hundreds of enemy Fighters that can muster and start attacking their positions um and and so Our cyers were able

to to disrupt those attacks over over and over again but a lot of time we'd be sitting in position You' see like the the the M clearance element and their big like imra you know this VHA Vehicles they were the only guys that had them at that time we would ask for them and nobody else had them but you'd see them slowly like on white lights like digging IDs out of the road um and there was to to to the one of the first operations we put in um I mean They they cleared they cleared

dozens of IDs out on that I mean in like a just to tell you how bad things were there was a route that was coming down off Route Michigan that main road that I said was statistically the most heavily ided Road a couple months before we uh moved into that area uh right before we deployed the Marines had tried to push down uh a road into where we end up putting a combat Outpost was called route Sunset and it hit something like 13 IDs in less Than 500 meters so I mean it was just it

was it was constant um you couldn't even get into these areas and so we just we would watch those guys clear and so it took like four or five six hours for them to clear all the way down and we wanted to make sure that IDs weren't being in place you know on on top of that and so then then all of a sudden tanks Bradley Fighting Vehicles you know those troops are coming in you know in Humvees and man I remember this one time We were sitting in the sniper hide and what was going

to be the the buildings that would become the combat Outpost and we're on the third story and I'm looking over the side and I got the that mind clearance element I mean they got this it was called the dagger was the call sign for the vehicle they got this huge like arm that's like like I think they call it the Buffalo was the vehicle um and they're like digging it's this big robotic arm that's like digging in the Dirt and this this robotic arm got like blown off like every night you know they'd like replace

it um and I'm looking down there and I could see these like projo and I mean I'm I'm I'm looking over the rooftop I'm like I was like this is all of a sudden it occurs to me that like if that goes off I mean these are like these are like one five5 rounds you know like that thing's going to take my head off you know my face is going to be gone I was Like if I could see the you know explosive it can see me I need to get back behind the rooftop I

mean it's like right there like at the base of the building that we're in um and we found a bunch of them too like on the uh along like the creek we were patrolling across as the the Army went and burned burned out the vegetation later and they dug like I mean they they find eight or 10 IDs in there a whe like patrolling around things are just Yeah and then from the comet Outpost once we had that established so then we could push out in deeper into inic territory and so initially the Army would

say like hey we want you here in in this building so that you can cover our guys and and you know you're looking 360 for 100 yards in all directions you know for blocks it it's it's all you can see is US soldiers and Marines it's like I can't even engage anybody like the so so we talked them into it and luckily Joo would kind of explain why we needed to do it and we pushed about 300 M outside the the perimeter and they were worried about us getting attacked but we pushed 300 M outside

the perimeter set up in a big four-story apartment building I wanted to go in a different direction Chris Kyle was like that we need to go there that's the apartment building um and luckily I was uh I was I was at least humble enough as as a leader I made all kinds of terrible Mistakes but at least humble enough to listen to the guy that knows who he was talking about um to say okay cool let's do do what you know Chris wants to do thank God we did that because I mean we had um

over the next 48 hours we disrupted like all kinds of attacks on that combat Outpost and that was just kind of the model for what we did over and over and over again you you'd see like a dozen enemy Fighters that are trying to like rally to to and and they Know they're going to attack the combat Outpost which you can't see or or you get you know uh right as the sun comes up mortars are landing dead center of the combat Outpost kills a soldier wounds three others and uh the soldiers can't even shoot

back right indirect fire it's coming from you know kilometers away over blocks of you know the city and um you can't even see the launch point and so our cybers were able to engage gauge guys loading motar tubes Into the back of a a vehicle you know from 600 yards away D so it was that kind of element where like those soldiers when they started hearing like the 300 Win Mag you know it's like three enemy Fighters engaged with 300 Win I mean you would just hear like they were they were so stoked about it

they knew that like we were up there on The High Ground you know to protect them and help them out and as a result I mean every every single time we called them um cuz When we're deep in Enid territory like we got to we got vicious they always figured out where we were sometimes it was like sending like unarmed kids through the neighborhood knocking on Gates I mean you know all the standard stuff and they knew we weren't going to engage that guy um but uh but they they they wanted to figure out where

we're at so um it would we just adopted the Marine tactic from 38 Marines of like it became an over fighting possession so if If you didn't have an urgent surgical casualty like you weren't calling that cuz that's what they wanted you to do you were going to be in the streets getting ambushed having IID clacked off on you you know or having you know multiple machine guns engaging you while you're patrolling out so we try to wait till under cover of targ if possible and sometimes we didn't do that cuz if I was felt

like I was in a position that was not very defensible if they attacked us Um like if they could get if we were on we had rooftops but the all the rooftops were kind of equally you know high or even higher around us and they might have the advantage over so there were a couple times when we had to make the tough call it just you know it's kind of like the you make the the the least bad decision you can right are you're like hey man I know we're going to get attacked but we

can move fast on foot we can do some Misdirection um and we can get back to the base it's going to be better than allowing them to set up a massive attack you know on our position where they have all the advantage you know so I think we've we've done a fantastic job of painting what mmati was like back in 2006 and so let's rewind back to your first kinetic operation with the Blue on Blue yeah man even before that when the guys hit the ground the the very first Like I've been Advance I've been

on the ground for like a week everyone arrives um and so they they're they're just offloading in the camp and we got in there's like a massive multiple uh um like multiple unit like well coordinate enemy attack on the camp we're talking like so every single seal is on the rooftop of the camp just dumping fire across the river um and uh that was like the first the very first one one of my guys who was who was our probably our Most senior machine gunner um he'd been it was his third deployment to Iraq he'd

been a machine gunner you know every time he'd done a bunch of assaults done a bunch of uh capture kill raids you know those direct action raids and and he he was like this is the first time I've ever fired my machine gun I mean he' been on the ground for like 3 hours you know are you seriouss they shot like 500 rounds off the rooftop you so so we knew like this Is going to be different you know and then that first particular the the first major operation first of all I was so pissed

at Joo for this because he wasn't I I was I had to be acting tasking and Commander for that because um and it was the right call man it was the right call but I like I want obviously wanted to be out there with my guys on the battlefield and uh a bunch of guys they the the Army this was the 101st Brigade or the 101st Airborne Division um this Was the uh the first of 506 Task Force Red Curry and this I mean they they live that the the the celebrated Band of Brothers a

tradition you know from the the book that Stephen Ambrose wrote in the HBO miniseries um this was the the the first of 506 parachute imry regiment awesome awesome unit um and uh they man they had a they just had a phenomenal solders incredible leader uh of their batal Commander um and uh they were asking for help they're about they were Doing some operations pushing what was called the malab District it was a really really bad area um and so our guys uh went out there and set up uh position we we had you know our

our job tasking from the combined joint Special Operations task force um you know that was the the Green Beret colonel in charge of all the Special Operations at theater at the time was everything was going to be by with and through Iraqi soldiers so we were we were tasked to Train and fight uh uh company and Battalion siiz elements of Iraqi soldiers like that was literally our tasking so that's what we were there to do um and obviously that was an Oda Mission it was a little bit different for seals to kind of adopt that

but we took with us we took with Iraqi Soldiers with us on every Mission uh and the Seal Seal Team two guys before us had done a great job of training those guys up and trying to mitigate some of the risk of Their training but that's what our guys were doing on that very first mission they they sent um we had an element of seals that was going out as as combat advisers with the Iraqi soldiers and we're talking like a like aund Iraqi soldiers on the battlefield you know with with like a dozen of

our guys and some of the army the military transition team uh and some marines that were with them and then we had uh two different SEAL Sniper teams that were going out There along with some army sniper teams so they went out on the battlefield they briefed where everybody was going to be you know everything the plan made a lot of sense um I'm kind of tracking this Mission I you know I'm watching their conops and I'm listening to it on the radio and um and it was pretty clear that like all all hell kind

of broke loose on the operation and we expected it to because in the malab district this was like and this is our very first Major operation is tasking a Bruiser so jao felt like he needed to be over there uh located with the Battalion leadership so he could kind of be the liaison officer to manage that as the command and control with all his different elements out there 100% the right call to be able to do that so joo's out on the battlefield but instead of being you know with there's all these different multiple seal

units out there he's collocated with the the uh uh Battalion Staff from Task Force Red Cur he um you know try to try to manage that and um we we have this this report of like a a massive enemy attack that goes on so our SEAL Sniper Elm is reporting the attack um and uh then all of a sudden we also get a report that uh you know there there's a report um that the the insurgents are attacking the the the Iraqi unit that's out there um and there was there was some there were some

issues I won't get into on the Communication side you know as well um that kind of broke down um passing Communications um but uh joo's out there on the battlefield he shows up there he knows that his guys were in trouble they're calling for heavy qrf right they they want tanks that means they're in a dire situation they feel like they're about to be overrun and so jao shows up there with the command and control element he he moves up sees the the uh um Ang the the anglio officer right the The uh air Naval

gunfire liazon officer that's that's there to coordinate an air strike on a building there's red smoke marking where the enemy is he knows that his that the sniper team is in there somewhere or should be close by and uh and so he just he he he's kind of trying to deconflict what's going on um and he went up and kicked the gate open and uh and it was Tony my platoon chief on the other side was like um and realized like this is a blue and blue situation so and No one understood what was going

on this was um meanwhile I'm I'm moding R the radio on the other side of the city I'm getting traffic passed back to me um there's a there's a huge spin up on this but all of my guys that were in that sniper position that was that was a squad of my guys that were there and um uh it was um they were all convinced I think that they were about to die I mean they they they they had moved they they moved out to a a sniper position Position under cover of Darkness they realized

that where they were was not a good and defendable position they didn't have visibility on where they needed to to see uh to cover the road that they were supposed to cover for the soldiers and the Iraqi uh the US Army soldiers Iraqis that were moving down that road so they mve position across the road and they weren't able to pass that that information for for you know for uh a series of reasons uh a breakdown in in Communication then the Iraqi soldiers were out of sector so they were supposed to it was supposed to

be like hours before they clearing well some of the Iraqi soldiers I think decided like Hey we're going to get killed if we're out here let's get this thing over with they like rushed to the furthest point away you know from uh the friendly uh you know uh Outpost camp corgador and then tried to rush back and so they were out of sector so all of a sudden you know as As our sniper team is setting up they zip tied the the the gate to the U um and they're setting up and you know it's

it's just starting to get light so like first call the prayer goes down so night vision doesn't work you know but you can't really see um and uh and all of a sudden they've got somebody you know creeping by the window with an AK-47 like they see the unmistakable sign of AK-47 like they engaged that guy um and they they didn't realize it was an Iraqi Soldier that was out out of out of s so the Iraqi soldier you know they uh that guy gets killed several others get wounded the Iraqis engaged back um the

Iraqi gets dragged back they call in for fire support because they're thinking oh man there's Al-Qaeda insurgents or H up in this building and man we we got this on video uh there was an embedded um there was an embedded reporter I think from stars and stripes with with the uh the the the uh unit anko unit they they Pulled up a hum and they dumped probably they probably dumped 300 rounds of 50 cal into the building and our mutual friend Matt that we were in Buzz with is on the rooftop and uh and I

mean guy all he can do is just take cover rounds are coming to the rooftop like one round luckily it went through the concrete wall enough to slow down like hit him in the face and like embedded up under his cheekbone are you sh he said it was burning him but he Like grabbed it and pulled it out of his face and like do it threw it down on the roof um and so these guys are like man we're about to be overrun right they're calling for that qrf and and uh they're thinking man these

guys this is they're bringing it this is our first major operation so they're calling in for tanks and fire support outside they're calling in for tanks and fire support So a tank pulls up when jao gets up there before we kick the gate open there's a Tank with a their gun trained directly on the building where my guys are hold up uh and they're just all kind of hunkered down trying to just take cover and not get their head shot off you know I mean you can imagine right there's 50 cow rounds coming you know

and and belt fed you know 762 coming right over your head all you can do is just bury your face and try to try to take cover um and return fire as best you can and and uh they think they're about to get overrun And and and then on top of that not only were they going to engage with tanks they're coordinating an air strike so the angle you know the the jtac right the air controller he's cing in an air strike that's about to just demolish this entire building um so I mean it would

have wiped out my our entire Squad [ __ ] and um so this was the lesson from that of like just how easily like we thought we had taken every step possible to Mitigate the risk of that happening um and so meanwhile I'm back at at the tal Operation Center you know we're monitoring radio reports we're hearing that you know we've got wounded seals uh and I know it's I know it's one of my guys I know it's it's Matt at this point um but uh we're then we're hearing that it's friendly fire right so

like okay what's going on man all of a sudden word spreads like wildfire right the the the Webby like instant you know chats are Going on across the the uh you know the the every every talk of like Friendly Fire Friendly Fire like what's going on what's going on and um so I mean there's there's like massive scrutiny on this operation you know right away and I remember I I jumped in the truck all I know is that Matt you know my brother our brother we went through buds with that that I've done you know

the this workup cycle this in myON his PL I know he's been shot in the face I don't know What that means I don't know if it means his head's gone you know I don't know mean if he's going to die so I jumped in a truck drove across the base uh to Charlie Med that was a medical facility and um and I went went to to to pick him up and man they you know they they put him on a morphine drip and um and patched him up and gave him some btics you know

for for infection and when I was talking to him you know obviously he's kind of out of it right he's got It's some morphine and and uh but he's like man they brought it those guys brought it he's like they were going to overrun our position he's like I thought we were all going to die and he kept saying it over and over again and I was like Matt I was like Matt It was friendly fire man it was friendly fire It was friendly fire and I probably said I probably say It was friendly fire

probably six times before it like sunk in and he was like what and it was like He could he couldn't believe it you know he couldn't believe it when I said it and uh and so I think that right there as like you know our our commanding officer flew out we had an investigating officer that flew out um it was we were so fortunate to not lose any of our guys on that you know it was horrible that we lost an Iraqi soldier on that we took up a big collection for his family and try

to do everything good you know for him there were a couple other iracki Soldiers wounded luckily they recovered you know from that but it was so close to being just absolutely catastrophic we're talking you know wiping half my platoon out um and then you know when people were looking like what heads are going to roll over this what heads are can roll who screwed this like this is friendly fire this is the worst this is the cardinal sin the cardinal sin that you Commit axlon in in Vietnam right that had a a friendly fire incident

and and this is this is the worst case scenario that can happen um and so we had a big debrief and our commanding officer our commanding masterer sitting in there the investigating officer who is our Jag was in there uh people were wondering like who's responsible like who's how did this happen who's responsible for this thing and we knew it was probably some heads were going to roll over it and uh And jao stood up in front of the of the tasket we're all in there and um and he said whose fault is this and

man there you know the ra stood up was like man I I didn't pass the traffic on where when we move location I should have made sure that got passed that's my fault um you know the seal that engage Soldier said I didn't get proper PID I thought that was a uh you know an enemy insurgent and uh and I engaged him Before I had proper PID that's my fault I I should I should have made that happen going for I mean over and over the guy with Iraqi soldiers you know who had been combat

advising them said this is my fault as Iraqis were out of sector and we just went around the room around the room and Jo was like no it's not your fault like no it's not your fault no it's not your fault he's like this is my fault like I'm the tasking Commander everything that happens to this task in Is my fault I'm responsible and we're going to do everything in our power to make sure nothing like this ever happens again and just to to watch that happen like the power of extreme ownership in front of

everybody in the task in it you know our respect for him was already high man and it went through the roof after that I realized and like and and our commanding officer instead of he actually left there he had greater trust in Joo and in tasking a Bruiser because He knew that we were going to take steps to make sure that it didn't happen again and we did prevent it from happen again Friendly Fire happened probably Friendly Fire would erupt but it never became catastrophic we were always able to manage it we could you know

we we could stop it before uh before anybody was killed or wounded and uh it was always a constant threat but we took massive steps to mitigate the risk uh and in fact even I and even even Uh some of the guys uh some of your your your uh uh still te mate Brethren that plugged into our team they were awesome crew that came out and and joined us and they were kind of jokingly calling me the Rocket Man there for a little bit cuz I had these two um I had these two flares on

my back we had a white flare and a red flare you know a white flare was uh a red flare was send qrf a white flare was like ceasefire um and uh so that those were Singaling device I was like man I want that with me all the time just in case that we have that happen um I'm going to carry that thing those things around on me that's ultimately my job is to prevent this from happening so we implemented Lessons Learned at every level of the team we we took massive steps to mitigating from

happening and and uh when it did happen you know like oh we get get some rounds over our head we instantly had the radio coms and we Had a good coms check with that you know the tank that was shooting at us we could get him to ceasefire you we're marking our positions ceasefire some times we'd throw a freaking giant you know V7 daylow orange signal panel you know half the size of this room over the side of the building and let every Insurgent know where we were at just because uh that was better than

taking you know 120 mm main gun rounds you know in into your Position uh because a threat of that was significant every time damn wow wow you know I heard you talking um I heard you talking once I think it was with Joo about getting shot in the chest in the plates can you run through that yeah man that was uh the darkest day of my life I'm sorry I didn't know that August 2nd 2006 man we lost Markley and uh and Ryan job had been wounded right before that and uh yeah I took Around

I think it was a Ricochet you know otherwise it probably would have kill me split my spine in half you know um what were you guys doing we were uh it started as a big uh uh basically a coordinate search operation into what was called the J block sector of ratti and so after we'd establish those combat outposts we'd push sniper overwatches out and then we would push um we would push uh uh patrols with the Iraqi forces out you know to try to patrol into the City engage with the local populace showed them that

we were there to actually support them talked to them about where the insurgents were um you know these these were the Marine Corp calls them sensus operations of kind of just showing the local populace that like we were here to support them you know that was that stabilize the city secure the local populace you know part which which paid huge dividends down the road you know to ultimately lower level Of violence and and um um you know the onbar Awakening you know uh came out once but all that started with breaking the back of the

Insurgency like really lower than their their their military capability um but what we would do is is push our uh push patrols out with the Iraqi soldiers um and the the military uh transition teams that they were assigned to them uh and we put cyber overwatches out there and we had a bounding OverWatch that was in a cyer You know sniper position covering um and we were out with um we were out with uh um an awesome unit uh from the uh this was from uh this was from the task force ban it uh Team

Bulldog so this was this is Bravo Paton um uh first uh it was Bravo between first Battalion 37 armored regimen of the first Armored Division I mean this is a this is a unit that had been in the ardens you know Forest the B Battle of the Bulge and World War II like historic unit incredible group um That we built some awesome relationships with and and um we by the way we couldn't have done any of these operations without these soldiers and Marines you know we push into these areas the only reason that we could

do that the only reason that we could push so deep in enemy territory is because we knew that the soldiers and Marines were going to mount up in their tanks Mount up in their Humes and come to our rescue and a and they did it over and over and Over and over again all the time um and we we had an just an incredible work relationship with those guys and and I wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't for them um and uh and so we supported them as well right when they asked us to

do things we helped them we put in cyber OverWatch positions and so we were pushing Iraqis deeper into you know en Health areas and um as we were clearing through an element of the J block we we' done probably I don't know six or eight Operations like in this area kind of pushing deeper and deeper in um and uh Ryan job was one of our machine gun is amazing guy incredible guy um and well the kind of guy that I don't know I don't know how long it took him to get through buds but it

was a long time he was one of those guys that was never going to be the best athlete was just absolutely tough as Nails yeah um and uh was a was a just a stud uh you know awesome machine gunner uh super strong Man of of Faith as well you know and hilarious uh but he was he was the machine gunner basically holding security for Chris and the sniper T was on the rooftop as we had this kind of bounding OverWatch and I was with the Iraqi uh element that was moving forward to the streets

um and we were about an hour and a half or two hours into that operation again one that we conducted many many like that before and all of a sudden I me we hear a we hear a a u a sh Ring out I mean you can hear the impact of it you know and uh and I I hear you know our most experienced our most combat experienced guy was Chris Kyle an awesome awesome teammate and uh tremendous sniper uh saved lots of lives in the battlefield and and man I could just hear in Chris's

voice man he's like we we call Ryan's nick name was bigles and uh he was like bigles has been hit I need a Corman to the rooftop now and uh I could I could just hear the in his voice you know how horrific that was um and I literally been talking to him you know both those guys like 30 seconds before that right just walk down the stairs you know to to to try to you know we're going to organize our team and kind of push out to to the next building before we take the

rooftop there um and man we get you know so we go rushing back up to the rooftop and uh Markley who is uh rolls right back up there Another awesome machine gunner just an incredible incredible Guy step right into the very position that Ryan got shot like right in the position with his belt fed Mark 48 machine gun and just starts to land down supressive fire um knowing that like we're going to get shot back you know at any moment um and we got up to Ryan you know I Ryan had been hit in the

hit in the face uh and just a single single shot hit him in the face um you you could call an enemy Sniper around you could call it just a you know obviously it was not your average like spray and prey you know Insurgent it was somebody that had some good side picture trigger squeeze engaged him hit him in the head um and man it just it just looked horrific I mean he's you know he's his eyes gone like his holy [ __ ] half his face looks like it's missing you know how blood looks

man it's just so I I just I ran up to him I just grabbed his hand I was Like is he conscious when I rolled up to him he's just he's just laying there and I grab I grabbed his hand I was like hang in there brother we're going to get you out of here and I I didn't believe that for a second man you know like it just looked like it was there was no chance um and you know meanwhile Mark and and is standing there laying down some press fire right over the rooftop

wall where he just Ryan just got hit other guys Stepped up there too laying down suppressive fire you know we're getting we're calling in the casac vehicle the Corman rolls up there and is is working on him that cor was Johnny Kim our you know just a phenomenal guy in in there you know going to work um you know on Ryan and miraculously Ryan like sits up he like sits up and says I'm okay and uh you know he's he's he was the blood was kind of going down his his throat right so he has

to kind of sit up to kind of Clear that and um and we get under his armpits we're getting him down so the cazac vehicle you know we had a m113 armor Personnel carer down there you know for cazac and uh so we get Johnny um our our Corman and and we got you know guys under each each shoulder of Ryan we're getting escore off the roof and he he walks off the roof really by his own power like down the stairs um and uh just uh just incredibly incredibly tough you know human being And

uh we found out later that Ryan got hit in the when when he was in the hospital you know they had all this shrapnel in his face and they were trying to figure out like what exactly happened because I thought the round just impacted him you know uh but he he what we realize that like there was a there was a round impact on the receiver right at the base of the receiver where it meets the butt stck where his Mark PR a machine gun and We were an hour and a half into this operation

he was uh you know it's it's 117° you know it's miserably hot we're paing all our gear and water I mean Ryan must have been sweating profusely um and he man just like the awesome teammate that he was the awesome machine gunner was Ryan was on that machine gun he was on that machine gun looking down the sides of his weapon ready to provide cover fire and if he hadn't done that he would have just taken his head off you Know that round would have just taken his head off so um like that saved his

life um and uh we unfortunately we didn't figure out till L it was it was two weeks later that we realized that uh that uh the the shabo had severed his optic nerve to his good eye and he was GNA be blind as a result of that um and so I didn't know how it was going to go the time we EV we evaced Ryan you know we sent our Corman with him we pulled back to the you know we pulled back to The base um and August 2nd we' done multiple operations in this area

we gotten tons of gunfights in this area there were definitely a lot of insurgence but there was something different about August 2nd like this was probably I think it it was the largest single like engagement of any of the the B the the the engagements that made up this like you know eight or nine month like Battle of rat um and insurgents were just coming out of the woodwork Attacking the soldiers that were out there clear so we had one sector they were clearing another sector after Ryan got hit we pulled back um and and

uh went back to the the uh we putot Patrol back about kilometer to the to the base kind of refitted um and the soldiers were like under attack man they they you know and they asked us if we could we could help them um and uh and and you know they were getting attacked from these different positions uh so we Loaded up in in Bradley Fighting vehicles and we roll back out you know into the into the city um and it was it was man there was so much going on that day like like for

guys like Mark Lee for all the guys that were in Charlie platon like they knew they were going back out in the teeth of it like we just seen what happened to Ryan um and you know our brothers in the Army needed our help from uh Team Bulldog there um and and Nobody hesitated for a second man jocked up in their gear reloaded mags refitted With Grenades loaded up into those uh those Brads and we we rolled out no to hit those Target building no hesitation no hesitation man those guys did did everything I asked

them man unbelievable courage um we had the the Firefly was so bad that day man we had like I think for uh the company Commander's name is is uh Mike B as a close friend of mine he's retired now main gun Mike we called him He fired over 50 main guns from from the his tank throughout his his uh time there and um I don't know how many of you have done that since like the World War II ER man 50 main guns but uh he was a he was a phenomenal guy I think every

I think I think just about every tank in Bradley Fighting Vehicle out there was uh you know we would use the term Winchester they're out of ammo like they call it black when the tanks out of ammo like they they shot every single main Gun round that they had damn in that engagement and uh that is some serious [ __ ] it was it was uh it was it was right in the teeth of it man and so I think for for me you know I talked it quickly over with Tony my my platoon Chief

I was like look if we're going to hit a Target where we got bad guys that are shooting at us you know the best thing we could do is soften it up you know first so um we had the uh we wanted to go in and try to stay off the street We knew we had at least one sniper out there so we wanted to try to use armor you know to get into to to to these areas um and so we had those the Bradley Fighting vehicles and the tanks just blast these buildings man

before we went into them um and then smash to the walls uh and lower their lower their their ramps you know before we engage and we hit we hit one building um the insurgents had already like pushed out of it that the you know the Army told us Hey we're getting engaged from from this there's a surg in that building so we loaded back up we hit we hit another building and in the second engagement as we went into that building man the building was on fire as we went in there like the a main

gun round had already hit the building and just blasted it open um there were uh as we started moving into the building and clearing through the building uh we took fire from the opposite end of the hallway and Uh Mark Mark was H killed and somewhere I was hit in that gauge I I heard the gunfire ring out I stepped out into the into the hallway got got hit and I just grabbed one of our guys who was in the hallway it was clearly a hot hallway with bullets and Ricochet is flying around and push

him across the the um the uh the hallway you know just to try to get him out of the line of fire and uh and and you know I heard the man down call Mark was 20 feet away from me you Know when that happened and and um you know guys came came uh uh as more assaulters poured in the building like they they cleared the rooftop and and um it was uh it was it was the absolute worst day of my life man um and I think the fact that I got hit you know

just in between the plates and um I I knew I've been hit you know but then uh the guy that I pushed into that room was like Hey Le you're bleeding you know just just blood always Looks like more than it is right it was my whole inside of my you know uh inside of my vest was soaked and it was just like trickling out you know you could just hear like the tap tap tap tap like blood on the floor and and uh but there just wasn't time to even think about that man you

know it was Mark was down we moved up to him got the Corman on him got him caked um and for whatever reason like I thought There might be some hope you know Mark was unconscious when we got to him I thought there might be some hope to him man but he been he'd been hit in the head he was killed instantly and um Mark was just such a incredible incredible Warrior man and he was doing exactly what I asked him to do you know which was uh engage uh enemy insurgents he was he was

was moving down a hallway stepped up right into the doorway to um you know to engage enemy surgers that were Shooting at us from the building Next Door Man and uh and sacrificed himself for me and the rest of the guys were coming in there and he was uh I mean just like Ryan just the most incredible teammate just the just absolutely hilarious strong as a just just strong as an Austin incredible athlete but just the the kind of just represent the absolute best of the sealed teams you know and uh and I would do

anything Sean I do anything a trade Place with him man um I got lucky you know for whatever reason I got I got lucky and and some Ricochet hit me and you know they Passat me up and and uh and I I you know there there'll never be a time when I go up to Fort Rose cran cemetery and see Marsh grave there I don't wish that was me line of the ground there man and not him and uh I think that's one of the hardest things um that I could have never prepared for right

when these these guys that you Love and would do anything for um it's the ultimate dichotomy as a leader it's the ultimate dichotomy which is to to love your guys and want to do anything for them and be willing to trade your life for them if you could and yet sending them out on missions where you know that they they might get injured or killed um and I think it's uh it was it was something that I tried to pass on to the next generation of seal leaders that I you know just the the Reminder

of like what's at stake and we would do a Memorial Run uh um uh every Junior officer training course that I put through like we park our our vehicles down at at dog beach and and ocean beach and we would run it's five miles uphill all the way to Fort Ros cemetery and we' go pay our respects to where Mark Lee is buried and Mikey Monsour our teammate and and Del platoon uh who was killed about a month later and pay our respects there and and just Uh remind remind these young leaders about what's what's

it take man and then the burden of leadership and um I think for me um they'll never be like it's a it's a burden that never goes away you know it's a bird that never goes away um and I think what's as a man of Faith Mark was a tremendous man of faith and uh he had wanted to be a pastor and he had gone to the Masters College um to study To be a pastor before he decided that he wanted to he wanted to join the SEAL Teams and um and I remember quoting scripture

and talking about um there were there was a there was a time when we were out uh when you know there was uh we were engaging targets uh and we were talking about like the worst case scenarios you know these mangy Iraqi dogs that are like you know these kind of junkyard dogs that are running around like the Worst case scenario is that the these mangy dogs are like chewing on you out the street right and we talked about how this was you know uh that uh in the Bible there's there's numerous examples of that

where like the Prophet Elijah uh you know and Jezebel who's trying to kill him and the prophets of Israel the the dogs are going to chew on Jezebel um when David and Goliath Goliath says that he's going to give David's body after he kills him to the birds of the air and The beasts of the field and and we were talking about this with Mark right this idea of like uh being a warrior on the battlefield um and and uh I remember sharing the scriptures you know with Mark and talking about his faith and and

how powerful that was for him um and I know I'm going to see him again one day and I look forward to that day man he's uh he was an incredible man and uh and Ryan Joe you know 3 years after the surgery uh on a I think it was the 22nd Surgery to repair those wounds that you know when he was wounded um we lost him you know from complications for that surgery as well and uh like him like just like Mark Ryan was an awesome man of Faith um you know he came back

from that deployment and being blind to him was like an inconvenience you know it was uh he he he climbed 14,000 ft Mount reneer totally blind um to this awesome organization called Camp patri I know I know number of steals that attempted it And were unsuccessful in their summon attempt you know with with with their sight you know and uh and all their limbs and um we he asked me to go on I was I was the spotter for him and we he shot this world class bull elk using this little camera system I mean

he R was just a phenomenal guy he married his longtime girlfriend um they expect their first child and and you know when that happened it was just just a just a tremendous tremendous loss um but I know That that that Mark would have wanted us to keep going right to keep operating to keep doing what we're doing to try to make a difference there and I would talk to Ryan on the phone and ran would tell us to keep going you know in those operations keep doing what you're doing keep going out there um keep

getting after it uh do everything you can you know to try to bring more soldiers and Marines home to try to win this thing in whatever capacity we can and and uh And uh man I just I'm just so thankful and fortunate and honored to have been able to serve with guys like that you know who were willing to lay down their lives um and and Ryan one time told me he's like it doesn't make me a her just because I got shot in the face I'm not a hero that didn't make me a hero

because I got shot and I told Ryan that what what what made him a hero is not that he got shot it was the fact that he knew that he could get shot at any time That that he could get Gravely wounded or killed and yet he jocked up in his gear and he rolled out all his operations over and over and over again and he did it for me did it for his teammates he did it for the teams he did it for the soldiers and marines that we were trying to protect he did

it for the in Iraqi people that were out there living under this brutal reign of terror and fear you know that that Zara's henchmen and alqa in Iraq later Isis you Know uh ruled over them um with and uh and I know Mark Mark was a hero for the same reason Man Mark was a hero for the exact same reason that he was he was willing to do that over and over and over again um and I just think it was it's the honor of my lifetime to be able to to have served alongside Heroes

like that and have uh and and be able to tell their story and share their legacy Damn Life That's Heavy That's Heavy I'm sorry I had to go through that Man we're going to see him again one day Sean yeah I look forward to that day yeah yeah you know when I first checked in 240 at buds Mark was the Mark was my my headmate and uh kidding man I didn't know that didn't get to know him um terribly well but um I am very thankful that I got to meet him and and uh he

he gave me the ins and outs of buds um what a great guy I I I didn't realize that you guys Uh I guess I should have known that because you know I didn't put it together for several several months into Charlie Bon as as he started to come uh he joined our Pon and started working with us um and uh and it was that wasn't in our initial workup that was just that was several months before we we deployed um but somehow we put it together like he knew Brian bill so I realized that

he had been to buds previously yeah um and and uh and those guys you know Brian was One of the guys that had trained with him they' lived together in Virginia Beach and you know they they Brian was one of the guys that encourag him um and I tell you what man as destroyed as I was um he Brian bill um was as close to Mark as you could be and Brian wasn't close to a lot of people man he he was but he was very close friends with Mark Lee and we talked a Lot

about Brian and you know obviously I was close to Brian Buds and was was was a friend of his through that time and when we came back man I was I just was just my soul was crushed my soul was crushed man from lisar and Ryan being blind and uh and particularly knowing that I had some minor wound man I was like it patch me up and I'm going back to work you know like it was like why couldn't that have been me why couldn't I have been Killed not and not Mark why couldn't I

have been blind not Ryan and you know luckily I had a I had a great Commander uh in jao who pulled me aside and said hey man we don't have a crystal ball and we don't know when that stuff's going to happen and if we did we wouldn't go in that operation but we can either choose to do nothing you know and take no risk or we could do everything we can to try to make a difference here try to save American lives here uh and that's what Mark would want us to do that's what

Ryan is telling us to do you know to encourage me to keep going man that support from jao was was immense but I remember sitting in the mission planning space as we're just kind of all reeling you know from from Mark's loss and and at this point we didn't know Ryan was going to be blind you know I I knew it was grave I didn't know how I Knew he was wounded badly I didn't know if he was going to like out of the woods as far as making at that point and I got a

call from Brian Bill who was in Baghdad with seal teammate and he said hey man I heard about what happened and I just want you to know like I'm going to go home I'm going to take care of the family I'm going to take care of May Mark's wife you know I'm going to be there for Mark's mom Debbie and his family like don't worry About it I know you guys are get a 10 like I got this and uh man I can't even tell you how much that meant to me that for he never

questioned a thing he never like said what what happened what are you guys doing like all the emotions that you might you know expect um he just he just said hey man I'm here I'm here to help and gave up what was an awesome deployment you know for those guys um you know in Bagdad doing a bunch of great operations uh to go and support Markman and it was uh that was the kind of guy that Brian was and um it was uh I can't even tell you how much that meant to me man just

getting that call and like the darkest hour and realizing like a teammate just putting his arm around you saying you know because that that was one of the hardest parts is like hey I we're here like the what P continuing operations are going on I want to go back you know I want to be able to to talk to Mark's family and and support Them and be there for I want to be with the Ryan's family and yet you can't do that right there's still operations going on so just knowing that teammates like that um

you know we're doing that was that was I'll never forget that M for Brian that was just I think a Real Testament to the man that he was how long was it after that that you guys were on the next up we we had a stand down and uh because we Just we needed it man we've been going hard we've been going hard and uh Delta platoon working across the city at a camp corgador was going to be on the uh they were going to launch an operation like the next day and um and sat

stone called jao said hey we're going to roll this 24 24 hours um and so uh he Joo said hey man you can still go on the op and and St was like look I think we need to roll this 24 hours right everybody needs to Deer breast everybody's emotional um you know and so that was that was an important thing for us I think just to realize like we need to we need to allow our guys to decompress but we we had a memorial service for Mark and man it was so guys drove down

the most dangerous roads in Iraq you know our teammates came from fuia and haditha and and uh and from across the you know the the the ratti down that you know route Michigan that deadly Road you know to come pay Their respects and we had a awesome Moral service where we said goodbye to Mark and then 40 hours later we jocked up in our gear and we we roll back out do you want to talk about the service with markers do you want to keep that between the platoon I think we all just said our

goodbyes man you know we all just did our best to honor him and and you know four guys had gone back with Mark to escort his his you know Earthly remains Home and be there with his family and be there for the memorial service um you know for that and and I think it was a it was an amazing turnout man soldiers Marines there Iraqi soldiers um it was uh it was just the kind of person he was man he he he was um he was just the he was the best man he he was

I've never seen anybody who could use humor in the darkest situation like to just drop a joke or or or like a movie quote you know and get people laughing and like Get him get him just to kind of shake things off like he was uh he just was uh yeah man he was awesome you guys took a lot of losses and um you know the the the world is very volatile right now and we're going to get involved in some more stuff there's not a doubt in my mind the US and so you know

for the future Generations that are going to go through similar experiences is what you just described you know what advice do You have for them yeah I mean our losses you know every time I think I've seen of combat Sean I read about I read about Marines in eima you know I I I uh got a chance to visit Normandy the summer right I'm standing on the beaches at okanawa and and uh I'm sorry the beaches at Utah um and I've been I've been on the beaches in okanawa as well um you know when I

was deployed there back of the day um but just being there at Normandy kind of open up my eyes to some stuff like some of the Inland fighting campaigns and things that were happening um me you realize the kind of losses that that that military units have sustained over the years um you know you go to the battlefield like Gettysburg you know or so many of the battles around here you know in Tennessee they're not far from where we are now I mean just massive massive loss of life that that Eclipse anything that I've Experienced

and I think what I can just you know what I can say is like what's helped me is number one Faith man knowing that like God has a plan for you um you know and and the survivors guilt that that's so easy for any of us to car with us um is uh is like the God has a plan and uh and so I think you got to lean on God for his plan we don't know what that plan is none of us are guaranteed tomorrow um we don't know what what what he has in

store for us But just trusting in Him for that plan leaning on faith um and knowing too that like you know ex taking extreme ownership of situations debriefing learning lessons even if it's things that you know on August 2 the enemy fought in a way that we hadn't expected them to do like they brought it they attacked in huge numbers um and that was that was a different uh that that was that was a different tactic right the enemy is going to Adjust tactics so you got to debrief you got to learn lessons to apply

that stuff going forward to make sure that you try to prevent those things from happening uh again and uh and I I think more than anything else I think it's about taking care of your people man like like you your responsibility as a leader goes Way Beyond Way Beyond just looking out for them the time that you serve with them it is about looking out for them and their families like for the duration of Your life as and I I will feel that way about the guys that I serve with and as long as I'm

breathing man like there's nothing I wouldn't do for them you know there's nothing I wouldn't wouldn't help them out with there's there's and sometimes you know you lose touch with people and you haven't talked to them in a while and maybe people forget that and I think it's important to reach out to people and remind them of that it's important to check in with people it's Important just to to to be thinking about um how you can continue to support them because they go is Way Beyond just in the immediate aftermath of some horrible situation

like that and it's it's not just about showing up and and paying your respect to their gravite it's about checking in with their family checking in on their kids you know reaching out to that your teammates asking them how they're doing um letting them know that you're there for man and That is you're all in this thing together and no matter what and I think that's you know when you go to Battlefield like Gettysburg um there's there's memorials all over that Battlefield and that's what it's for man people put their hands up just just like

in Normandy there's memorials all over there people people the veterans that survive those battles go there and they put their hands on on on those memorials and they remember their lost teammates And they and they support each other and they help each other and I think that's something that that goes Way Beyond just the time and service that you have with people um it's lifelong and even beyond that thank you for sharing that LE let's um I know it's been heavy for you and I I just I appreciate you going through that man and um

well let's take a break [Music] all right Leif we're back from the break Uh once again I just I really appreciate you digging deep and and and sharing those stories uh because one I think it's it's it's extremely important um to for those guys to live on you know through stories and to it's a very very important piece of history that that I'm just honored to be able to document here with you today so well I appreciate it man I'm honored to share it and anytime I get to a chance to talk about um you

know the the Teammates that I loss and and and honor the legacy of Markley and and Ryan job I I think it's um I'm I'm happy to do it Sean and I appreciate you I appreciate you pass that on I think there's there's so many lessons you know that uh that we learn from that and and I think uh for me I think some Americans though need to need to understand like sometimes people will come up after I speak about leadership and I talk about Romani and I talk about Mark and Ryan and and Mikey

Monsour you know and you know gave his life and our sister baton another phenomenal team Guy and um awesome machine gunner you know just like Mark and and and Ryan and people come up and be like I'm sorry man like I'm sorry you went through that and I think it's important to say that that like we had some dark days in Romani man I I think the you know the the it's it's kind of cliche right the uh Charles Dickens um Tale of Two Cities right the best of Times it was the best of times

it was the worst of times but I think it's important to say that man like I would trade those dark days for anything I would trade the days when we lost Mark and Ryan and when Coe was wounded and when when uh we lost Mikey Monsour I could trade those days for anything but most of those days were for some of the absolute best days of my life and knowing that we were working with an awesome crew of Warriors that we were Out there fighting against an evil enemy uh making a difference and and have

an impact and making sure more Soldier Marines came home to their families as a result and and I think that's something that I think a lot of Americans have a hard time um you know we kind of live in a in a day sometimes where it's like well you know is there really good and evil like yeah there is there absolutely is and I think when you see the kind of sad savagery that the you know the Precursor to Isis the al-Qaeda in Iraq what they're doing to innocent people just The Butchery and torture and

rape and murder and just horrific horrific stuff um and I think when you know that you can make a difference in the world and and rid the world of some of that evil um then it's a it's a great thing man to do everything you can in that regard and I think I think America needs to remember that and so most of the days that I Served there um were some of the best days of my life I wouldn't trade for anything is there anything else on this deployment you'd like to cover no I mean

I think that's I think just knowing that we um you know there were so many lessons there like so many things that like that uh I thought I was ready you know I thought like hey we you know um combat was so much more difficult than we thought it was going to be and uh and we were just humbled like on every Single operation like something didn't go right the enemy does something you hadn't planned you know you thought you deconflict that so that all the friendlies knew where you were and next thing you know

you're taking 50 cal you know rounds right over your the top of your head um you thought everyone knew you know what the position was cuz they could see your marking device and come to find out that they can't see that you know when they're looking through their Their tank sites or I just so many things like that it was just over and over again those lessons that we learned and um I think probably the biggest lesson um that I learned is that it's not about you man it's not about me you know it's not

about Charlie baton or our seal unit and that's one of the l i Tred to pass on as I went to take over that leadership uh training course and you know one one example of that is like you know when we first joined the SEAL Teams right it's you're training to operate in a seal squad or a seal platoon and it's just you right and you have assets that are supporting you and obviously you know if you're jck or you know there are times when you got a whole bunch of assets that are supporting just

uh a special operations unit like that but on the battlefield for us we would have uh you know there might be there might be two aircraft all of onbar Provincewide so if you're going to like declare troops in contact so that the aircraft would be over your head and you could utilize them just in case you might need them where you're pulling them off of a you're pulling them off a marine Squad that's penned down and maybe have his guys are going to bleed out and die you know maybe they get overrun or maybe these

soldiers that that are you know in this horrific situation like you're you're pulling Assets away from them so I think that really was you know that really for me was an eye opener of like it's not about me or my platoon or like it's it's we're part of the overall team the overall mission and and uh and and so we got to share assets right we got to share resources like we got to actually contribute to the overall success of the mission um and I think sometimes um teams get focused on like what they're doing

you know uh but I think jao really Kind of pulling me aside and and helping me understand that like this is um this is not about us and how many operations we do or how many bad guys we kill or capture this is about you know are US forces winning or losing like are we going to be successful as as you know as a nation here our Coalition partners are not so I think that was one of the biggest lessons to bring back uh it's interesting for us I've never heard a put that way to

be honest with you it's Always been about the unit I think that's what pulling assets let me let me re it's always been what assets can we get not we're pulling them from these these these units and unique perspective well every everybody I mean look you should be trying to get as many assets as you can right like if you've got an ac130 gunship use that thing right if you got helicopters use that thing if you got tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles Whatever assets you can have that's great but I think when you start to

one of the things I the one of the um this this is my favorite thing to do with uh when so it was a when I when I came back from that deployment from raditi um they they they sent me to the center and someone decided to put me in charge of the junior officer training course um and so uh I was happy to pass on whatever lessons I had there but we spent four weeks in the classroom and a Week long field training exercise and the thing that I love to do was I would

play the part of like a army company commander and I used like main gun mic the guy I talked about earlier is is like this is you know he's got tanks he's got assets so so these seal you know these Junior officers they're leading the squad out you know on the on this training Battlefield they got to come up with a plan they got to come brief me on what they're doing and what Support they need from me and so they'd come up to talk to me about their mission and I would just be like

hold on what you got man I got some guys uh we're actually activating qrf right now so Stand By and and I I would just have them like stand there and uh and just just to to realize that like hey uh these Army units that you're working alongside like they that that company Comm has in charge of 200 soldiers and a dozen tanks like he's got A lot of stuff going on you're not the only thing that's going on so if you're showing up there thinking it's it's all about you and and hey my big

office that's happening um and I got to witness that with a special operations unit I was standing right there next to uh a company Commander when a special operations unit rolled in the theater rolled up there handed them like the G you know the the uh the the grg and said hey here's what's going on and and they Actually were blocking the exits to the comet outposts uh and and the company Commander's like hey man I I got tank I got troops out the field right now you got to get your vehicles out of here

I gotta be able to use these tanks you know and it was kind of a rude awakening for that special operations unit to be like oh there's other stuff going on around here my big Mish you know so I I think that's that was what I tried to Train those Junior officers is just to pass it on to them you know it's not that as a leader you don't try to get every asset that you can for your team but it's that you realize that it's about the overall team and the overall mission um and

and so if you are hoarding assets you know or you are focused on yourself like there may be things that you're doing that could negatively impact others you know who are also trying to carry out their Mission and we're all in this thing together so um I I think looking up and out for a leader and uh and thinking about others uh and those other units and you got to operate you know in the same battle space with is is crucial yeah defin you before we before we move on to the rest of your career

I want to go back and I wanted to ask you what did you receive the Silver Star for I received the Silver Star for that uh that horrible situation August 2nd 2006 And um I don't know if I've ever publicly said that before but uh I asked jako not to write me up for that man really yeah I was like I don't want to reward for that this is the worst day of my life man I traded for anything um Mark got killed Ryan's wounded I don't want a word for that man we we did

the best that we could in a horrible situation I'm proud of my platoon and how they responded in the worst situation imaginable um you know to get The building clear to call in air support you know to to uh get cash the evacuation all the things that they did um under the worst situation you know imaginable um but I like I don't want to a word for them and uh for whatever reason he decided to that uh that it was deserving an award and he wrote me up for it so I accepted that award as

a as a Rec for the my team Charlie baton and what they were able to accomplish do you feel That there's anything you could have done to prevent that I think that when you lose guys on the battlefield like that like I will rethink that for every moment of my life you know I I know you were going to say that and that's why as tough of a question as it is if you found anything he could have been different or is it a never is it a NeverEnding thing where you will always Look for

what you could have done different yeah I think I think that uh I think that there is you're constantly thinking man what if I have done this or what I have done that or what if I done this and that's that's where I think joo's guidance you know is my task get a commander and saying like man we don't have a crystal ball like if You' have known that stuff was going to happen you wouldn't have gone on that op you would watch that operation you know And I think the tough thing for me is

like like you know is realizing like I can't you know we've got the Army out there that needs our help and they're in the worst situation of in they're in the worst single engagement of like the entire Battle of rat that lasted for nine months um you know that killed uh 94 guys you know in uh I think 94 guys kill an action in the 22A that National Guard unit um and I think 98 total guys killed in the ready first combat team um And so uh of all the combat those guys saw like this

was like the worst um you know or this was the single like hottest day of you know gunfire and and and uh Mayhem and enemy attacks and and so I I think for me it's the recognition of like I you know when somebody needs your help you know I think you do everything you can to help them and I I try to mitigate the risk that we can control you know by Riding and badly fighting Vehicles so that we were behind armor are not out on the street getting shot at by snipers by Smashing through

the walls by softening up targets with 25 mm chain gun um uh rounds from the Bradley Fighting vehicles and and uh and and Main guns from the tanks you know before we actually enter those buildings um but there's there's just never it's just a burden that never goes away you know and I think I think you you just you have to Do the best you can in the with the information that you have you know and I think there's uh I would trade that trade that day for anything to do something different to bring mark

back or Ryan back um and it's something that will always be with me you know um I think sometimes too when you're on the on the battlefield that the if you're conducting operations like there's no the the expectation that you were Going to be able to be in significant combat sustain combat over time without taking casualties it doesn't happen it doesn't happen and you know I remember a question our commanding officer asked us like you know with any with any operation that you go on you know you should ask yourself like is it worth it

you know is it worth the loss of one of your guys and you know as we thought about That question like I can answer that question right now no it's not I wouldn't I wouldn't trade my guys for I wouldn't trade my guys for Osama Bin Laden you know um I wouldn't trade my guys for Zara I wouldn't I would trade any single one of my my guys for for any of these you know Insurgent terrorist Savages that we're fighting um but that's not the right question to ask and I don't think it's any different

than I don't think it's any different Than a if you to ask a company Commander at Omaha Beach like would he trade one of his soldiers for Adolf Hitler I think he just said no I think he just said no of course not like this is a soldier I care about I'm not I'm not I'm not going to trade that guy's life but they were willing to make the sacrifice because they realized that uh establishing a foothold in Fortress Europe was the key to being able to Defeat Nazism so that we could live in Freedom

around you know across the globe and and maintain our way of life and so I think it's the same thing right if you're looking at um if you're looking at a mission like that it's it's um it's never going to be worth like it's never going to make that trade but the the the the trade is that you do the best you can to try to to try to have the most impact that you can and uh in the time that you have and you got To mitigate the risk control and I think that's all

you can do as a leader um and I think sometime the lesson learned is that combat is dangerous man it's dangerous business and if we don't have the will to kill if we don't have the will to kill the enemy um and if we don't have the will to sacrifice uh American last and then we shouldn't be in the first place Le I just want you to know I I don't take that question that I asked You lightly I I asked it because there's going to be people in your shoes there have been many people

in similar situations and and you know just your your answer alone might save somebody's life so thank you well I'm happy to share that man I think I think you know for every leader right we got we got to take risks there's no there's no combat operation without risk right there's no you can't do anything in life without taking a Risk um but you got to mitigate the risk that you can control right you don't want to run to your your death right with your hair on fire and I think I think trying to balance

that dichotomy right of of being aggressive but not being Reckless um is crucial for every leader out there and um it definitely made me think you know deeply about that in fact there was there was a follow-on time where um we had uh we had some aircraft overhead that saw like some Armed insurgents like run into a building um and uh and so you know after after losing Mark and and Los you know losing Ryan like I I wasn't it was we were going to look at Alternatives you know to to try to hit them

in a different way instead of even if we smashed that building with tanks and blasted it like we weren't going to run into that building we we were going to make some adjustments so I think every leader has to make has to learn the Lessons that they can um lessons that they learned and and I did a poor job I think of of even let my guys know of even some of the some of the Ops that we turned down I've I've talked to someone some of the guys I served with in Char B 10

that were like blown away that we we turned down operations because we looked at it the risk verse reward wasn't there you know we're like no we're going to focus elsewhere here it's that's there too risky and I think the you know the Chance of Miss success are limited so we're not going to take the risk there and um and some of them never even knew that you know that we were that that we were doing all we could to try to mitigate those risks you know yeah yeah but you're not going into combat without

taking risks and if we're not willing to take risk man it's we ought to not even be there in the first place and I think that's the kind of thing like the idea that we can we can go to war without Taking casualties you know it's just it's it's just not true man it's not true and and I think that's more than anything I wish that we had leaders who have been to war who understand that so that they can think very deeply about whether or not those risks are worth it you know at breakfast

we had uh a small discussion about I guess there there have been some controversy about the the Special Operations mission that you guys were on and and and people were Saying wasn't Special Operations missions because you were operating in gunfighting in the daytime and so I wanted to just give you the floor on that yeah there was all kinds of criticism you know like that I've I've I've certainly been the victim of the arm Cher quarterback stuff I that's going to happen right when things go wrong and things go bad um and I understand that

I think that's a function of people just I think not Understanding what we're doing and why we're doing it um and uh and I think I could have done a lot better job of instead of getting angry or frustrated with people of just kind of explaining that you know and talking about why we did what we did um and the impact that it actually had um and yeah I think uh you know cask and Bruiser killed a lot of bad guys and uh a lot of those were Cris scy our least cyber Point man at

Char baton was you know was the ring Leader of that like who did a tremendous amount of damage to the Insurgent Fighters there disrupted dozens and dozens of attacks on uh soldiers and Marines and our own guys and Iraqi uh troops um and saved a lot of lives man and had some huge impact and uh when we were in the uh the Squadron after action brief you know and everyone's standing in there all the senior officers and non-commission officers are in there kind of talking about the the Lessons Learned someone stood up and asked jao

um hey you guys were out in the daytime for a lot of this stuff you know do you think that's a special operations Mission and jao explained that uh you know 99% of the of the enemy Fighters that we killed were during the daytime you know and he said killing bad guys is a special operation Mission next question and I I think it's exactly right like it's this is you know I think sometimes Um as Special Operations units we need to be Innovative and I think you can be conventionally unconventional sometimes or like oh we

can only go out when it's night time we can only go out when we have like the you know the uh well what happens when you have a Target that shows up in a Marketplace in the middle of the daytime like we have we have to be able to actually those targets right we have to be able to figure out ways to um you know to to to do things where People aren't expecting if they're expecting us to come at nighttime with a you know under under cover of Darkness every time so um I think

our our best Special Operations units are constantly innovating and adapting you know ways to do things like that um but I looked at what we were doing in um in ratti we were we were going out a lot of what we were doing was undercover of darkness and that it was going in at night time setting up remaining over day when the Enemy was actually out when they had freedom of movement um when they were actually running around the streets cuz they knew we we would dominate at night time and aircraft could take them out

and and uh and they knew we we own the night so and then trying to patrol out you know undercover of Darkness at nighttime but there was um I I think that you know taking a fairly small group of guys a lot of Firepower going in deep into enemy territory in place Where people couldn't get supporting the conventional units that were then coming in you know in behind us in Mass I think is very closely equivalent to our forefathers from the underwater demolition teams the naval combat demolition units right these were the first guys on

the beach taking the taking the um taking the risk um you know that were're hitting the beaches in in landing craft like Higgins boats and Naval Combat demolition units or Scouts And Raiders and then in the Pacific Theater the the Frog men right the underwater demolition teams they were out there uh doing the reconnaissance uh opening up the way blow blasting holes in in the you know the corn reefs uh and obstacles so that uh so that you know the Marines and soldiers could land um and I think that's a lot of what we're doing

and there was a there was a shift in World War II where those those uh combat uh those uh underwater demolition Teams the UDT went from uh daytime to to or nighttime to daytime operations night time they were trying to do nighttime they thought it was safer and they shifted to daytime because they thought uh okay well we initially they thought it was too dangerous but they realized that when they got these little frog men swimming around even with the Japanese pill boxes blasting at them with mortars and artillery and machine guns most of the

time these guys wouldn't be hit and It was only I think there was only a handful of UDT men that were wounded or killed throughout the entirety of like daytime like beach reconnaissance operations so they were able to do it to mitigate the risk and they also were far more effective in the daytime um and so I think that was what we were doing um uh in the daytime was I think very similar like to just the making that shift and then it was the opposite in Vietnam you know where the in the Vietnam War

when when um seals you know were were going out in the daytime initially right you're chaining the Vietnamese Frogman and that's kind of how the the mission started and now all of a sudden we're going to start into some kinetic operations well nobody went out at nighttime CU Charlie on the night you knew the Viet were out there patrolling setting booby traps setting up ambushes uh and I've talked to some of those those Vietnam seals who made That transition and realize like okay the enemy is out at the night night time we've got to shift

to being out at night and the conventional units thought that was crazy they thought you're going to get a bunch of people killed but but uh the CTS were able to have massive impact you know for such a small Unit on on the battlefields because they went out at night time they went in areas that nobody else could get into um and they did a lot of damage to the bad guys so Um I felt like what we were doing in ratti was very much in the spirit of uh of that you know those seals

in Vietnam and those same underwater demolition teams in World War II great analogies great analogies and so so you get home you let's wrap up Tas G of bruer deployment you get home you move into this leadership course how what what's the time frame here how how fast did you change I I reported in uh I think it was it was like February 07 and uh so so we Got back end of October 2006 um and uh we I mean I basically spent a couple months at se team three turned over and then and then

went to the center and we uh and so I I just I took over the course did you want to go over there I was ready different role I was ready for a break I didn't know what I wanted to do I wanted to see you know I want to get out I didn't really know what I Wanted to do um that that was a heavy deployment man and uh it was um so I I wasn't seeking that role somebody decided that was a good place to put me and um what was cool about that

is uh is I loved it man I loved every second of it it was it was awesome and the best job in the world has been a seal po maner there's no better job in the world than that uh the next best job I think was teaching that Junior officer training course it was you know I had Some you know the the I got to see it was it was an amazing leadership laboratory I got to see different uh officers that were coming through that training we had pror listed seals coming through the training we

had um you know we had guys coming out of OCS that had been in the civilian world and now all of a sudden in the Navy we had people coming out RTC uh programs we have people coming from the academy uh we had people doing inner service transfers From um the Marines or Air Force or Army that would come through that program um also put some special operations uh or some Air Force Special Operations officers to there and some Norwegian Marine joers that came to that program as well so I just got to see a

bunch of different different people bunch of different styles of leadership and it really solidified for me like what works and what doesn't work because I'm putting them all in these challenging Situations and seeing how they react to things and and so it really solidified like this is what works and this doesn't work and uh and so it was it was awesome to see just the um it was it was a phenomenal learning experience for me I think if you really want to know something well you need to teach it you know I'm sure just like

when you started teaching tactics you know all of a sudden you got to people are going to ask you questions you have to be able to Know things from different angles you have to be able to to think deeply about things and how you might react in certain situations and and with different variables and so um that I think really solidified my thought process and and thinking about leadership and of course the first hand I it was bring Jaco over to give what we call the Jaco brief um you know kind of his lessons learned

and and uh and seeing that over and over again and I Got a chance to bring in Vietnam seals and uh and and and uh one of the my most favorite things was bringing in the most outstanding senior and Junior at listed seals that I worked with and having them talk about the officers that they respected and liked and admired and the ones that they didn't and what what the difference was and give their perspective you know and so I think that's something as an officer you don't often get to see that or hear that

what Were the major differences many of the ones I talked about humility people that were humble willing to listen um you know I think um there were uh I think the people that wanted to try to act like they have it all figured out or have to show people that you know I've got something to prove um I think that number one is that that's what pisses everybody off right when you got somebody that's not humble that thinks they know everything nobody Likes that no one likes a no at all um doesn't matter what you

what experience you have uh we used to joke uh we we had a we had an acronym for we weeb um which was when I was in Baghdad and then it became we weer when I was in raditi you know so like when people are like dropping these like when I was there like you know when I was here when I was this unit or that unit you're like look man that's not you know that's not the way to lead right I think asking people Questions helping people understand you know the truth of them themselves

uh like I like I mentioned before is um is uh is the way to lead um and so I think I think that's what really Rose above is people that were humble people that were willing to listen learn I think and then the fact that people were going to like look out for the team and the mission first it's it's amazing to me I remember the first time I heard the the term uh servant Leadership and I was like what does that mean and the idea that like a servant leadership means that you you know

yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna look like I'm here to serve the team I'm here to they don't work for me I actually work for them I'm here to help them I'm here to put the team in the mission first before myself and I thought that was kind of a crazy ter the first time I heard I mean obviously that's what good leaders do That's great um if you're servant leader that's awesome but I just thought that was weird that there was even a term for that because it it's like the worst leadership ever right if

you're going to look at for yourself if you're going to be one of these tck ticket punchers that's going to be like hey I'm all about me I'm going to put my needs and my wants you know before the the the team uh or the mission um and I think that's that's just that's terrible Leadership no one wants to word for someone like that um so those those are things that kind of and then obviously somebody that just buts out somebody that's going to try hard someone's going to have a sense of humor you know

somebody that's going to hold a line on things when it actually matters um and uh and let something slide when it doesn't how do you this is a personal question about leadership and you know how do I I got To there has to be a line between you and your guys and how do you keep how do you keep let me rephrase this you know it sounds like your leadership style and and and you know the conversations that we had at breakfast and I mean you were really [ __ ] close with your guys like

very very close relationships uh very personal relationships it sounds like And so how do you how do you maintain that respect as a leader at the same time as as as getting so personal with with your guys because that you know as a business owner I found that that line can be very tricky to navigate it's extremely tricky and that's a fantastic question Sean I think this is the million-dollar question right as a leader you have to be close With your troops but you can't be so close to them that one becomes more important than

the other are are more important than the the overall team and the overall mission or that they forget who's in charge and I think there's uh that's a real fine line because it's different for different people right I I mean there's the SEAL Teams you know I came from the fleet where was I was G you know I was Inon Babin or Lieutenant JG Babin you know it wasn't this like First name base we worked with a lot of the soldiers and marines that they were like that um whereas we're on a first name basis

you know uh my Char of Bon I was LE tenant that was my you know like like there I'm the lieutenant but I'm Le like that that's you know everyone's on a first name basis I'm sure you're your platum is like that you know your plat were like that as well and uh but it's so the line's a little more blurry but I think it's different for different People when you realize like hey guys we got to knock this off and like get focused on what we need to do so we can get this done

um and if people aren't paying attention then you know like okay I'm a little too close okay I've uh you know I I need to I'm gonna I'm gonna have to maybe create some degree of separation you know here in some way um so you got to be close with a team right I think the you got to know your people you got to understand what motivates Them you got to understand who they are and what they do what their skills are and what their strengths and weaknesses are and and how you can help them

like where where they want to go in life um what you can do to like to set them up for success and uh I think that's crucial you know for any leader to to know but you do have to like find that that balance and I think for me as the O as the aoic right the assistant platoon Commander you're like one of the boys And you're not quite the OIC you're not the platoon commander in charge um that was it's a big step up I think from to go from AIC to OIC and all

of a sudden like you're in charge and um and I realized I probably cross that line um you know with particularly with guys that i g the buds with and I was you know I've been in sqt with and I had very close relationships with and you know we go out drinking and party and hanging out and you realize like oh okay I have to like there's there's I'm going to have to create some degree of separation here maybe it's maybe I go out and you know spend some time with them like all right guys

stay out of trouble I'm I'm you know I'm going to uh I'm heading back uh but I think I think it's just trying to create that so that they you're close with your troops you're TR you're close with the team you understand them you know them they know You they know you care about them um and uh but but you're not so close that that one becomes you know more important than the other or the good of the team or or that they forget who's in charge I think that's a it's a tough balance uh

but it's it's for different people so you have to just I think if you're aware of it you know one thing that Jo and I say with dichotomy leadership is even just the awareness that there's this dichotomy that exists and you have to Find the balance is one of the most powerful tools you have as a leader because then you can start to monitor it hey am I too close am I not close enough you know and then and then you can start to find balance and you're never going to be perfectly in equilibrium it's

always kind of be constantly trying to make adjustments all the time okay makes makes a lot of sense do you did you ever vent to your to your guys frustrations I was probably the Chief haterade Drinker and CH tasking Bruiser for the while just if you remember the old Dave Chappelle uh the Chappelle show uh the player haters ball was one of my favorite episodes and remember they just held up pictures of people they would just like they sit around go hate hate and just like make fun of them and and uh I would just

throw shade at my chain of command you know talk about I had a great relationship with Joo like we we all Love Joo um but you know the next level up in the chain of command our commanding officer and staff they were always asking for paperwork and you know look they were good people I I liked them but they they would they would pile a bunch of paperwork requirements on them like I don't have time for this stuff we're out here trying to fight the war I don't need to be doing that stuff you know

and then you know you get questions from you know the the SI of Soda in you know 80 miles away um and uh you know the the the JAG officers asking you know about you know the rules of engagement and just making sure that all everything was followed you know precisely and and you you start to uh it's really easy to get frustrated and get emotional and push back on that and I'm lucky that I had you know Joo to to to ask me is like hey does it help you to not have a good

relationship with your CH man And I was like no it actually doesn't and worse than that actually it actually hurts my team because if I don't have a good relationship with my CH command and they don't trust me well they're not going to prove our operations right they're not going to give me the resource I need um they're certainly not going to be we're not going to be the go-to unit that they choose to go action of a you know a Target if they're going to pick one Platoon out of the entire team where it's

not going to be us you know um and so you know we when when I would vent sometimes uh Joo would kind of just allow that and then just ask some question to kind of turn it back around to kind of think about like what could we do to actually lead up the CH command like was our commanding officer and staff what do they want do they want us not to be successful they want us to win They want us to win so if they've got questions about what we're doing about how we're mitigating risk

I haven't pushed enough information up up their way they they don't understand why this why this mission is important and they're questioning that mission I need to actually push some information to them and talk to them about why we're doing this pick up the phone and call them and talk them through it um and then the you know the Jag at CJ soda we Were writing these like really basic like engaged military male you know with a AK-47 and the Jag is like well every you know senior male of the household is allowed to have

like one AK you know within their home if you remember they had they they were allowed to have one firearm it's like their their second amendment because a lot of people didn't have access to Banks and so they had valuables in their home and that was how They defended their valuables so the Jag is like hey this is was is it illegal for them to have an AK and you know meanwhile I'm like are you kidding me this guy's shooting at us you know and you're questioning my decision but I didn't write that in the

report so that's why he had some questions the moment that I put the hater raid down stop like you know hating on the chain of command and and and telling them they just need to back off and let us do our Job and realize like oh I need to push more information of the chain we started to think okay what does a Jag he he's never sat behind a sniper rifle he's never looked through a 22 power night Force scope you know he's these these snipers are operating with Incredible discipline man incredible discipline I'm talking

you know watching hundreds of people walk in front of their sniper scope and they're engaging enemy Fighters and we're talking about like With with minimizing collateral damage in a way sometimes these sometimes these Savages would use like human Shields like children like hold them in front of them and try to run across the street with their PG you know and snipers like Chris and Tony and others were like able to able to drop those guys and not injure the children I mean amazing in a way that nobody with a machine gun's going to be able

to do that nobody with a Bradley Fighting Vehicle 20 mm chain Guns going to be able to do that um and uh and so I was very proud of our snipers and and the discipline that they were using and and I realized that the problem was we weren't describing it in a way um that that that uh that articulated to someone who had never been there you know what we were actually seeing and the moment that we started doing that um and putting that into our shooter statements man they were like awesome That's great keep

doing what you're doing what what support do you need from us so you know I think so often we feel like we're in a hopeless situation you know if we're getting scrutiny from our chain of command and uh if we take ownership and actually just lead up the chain um it makes all the difference and I realized you know when I was venting to my to my guys and kind of throwing hate you know at the sij sodi for at our task group that was you know 30 miles Down the road of fua all that

does is just undermine my authority you know as well like I that never helps you right if you're going to if you're going to just throw your chain of command under the bus that does just that just undercuts everybody in the chain of command if you do that it's it's not good leadership and the best thing you can do is to say Hey listen understand this is frustrating here's what we're going to do we're going to put this Paperwork together we're going to get this done we're going to send it our chain command because they

need this information uh and and we're going to do this so we can build a relationship with our chain of command so that they're going to support us you know we need it and so when you can talk to your chain command about the realities of it you don't have to just you don't have to like just sugarcoat something that doesn't make sense you know like hey This they're telling us to do this stuff it's not fun it's a bunch of extraneous work that we have to do we're going to have to put in a

bunch of extra hours maybe you have to stay long you know stay late or stay over the weekend or whatever um you don't need you don't lie to the team right you don't say like oh this is great we're going to do it like they're going to see right through that yeah what you have to do is tell them the truth tell them why you're going to Do that and then help help them see that you're building a relationship up with the CH and you're you're putting some leadership capital in the bank so that you're

not pushing back on everything so that when when it comes time to really push back on the things that matter you're able to what how much of your decision-making process and in in the reason that you made certain decisions did you share with your guys if any did you did you ever feel Like these are personal questions that I'm asking for myself run as a as a guy running a company and and you know I feel the need to to explain some of the decisions that I make uh to my guys I don't necessarily know

if I should be doing that um and so I'm just curious you know what what do you do I think it's absolutely the right call to uh I you know you this idea of like 100% transparency not everybody needs to know Everything that you know you would spend all your time trying to communicate things to people all the time that's that's not a good use of your time as as the owner of a company but if that's one of the biggest lessons and the most humbling lessons that I brought back with me um I wrote

an entire chapter about about that extreme motorship um it's chapter 10 leading up and down the chain so I talked about leading up the chain um but this is Leading down the chain which is I don't think you can I don't think you can do it enough to explain why we're doing what we're doing because I think when you kind of think people get it you know leaders will think well they maybe they get it like seven out of 10 like no they get it like three out of 10 maybe one out of 10 maybe

zero out of 10 and your job as a leader is to connect the dots between the hard work that people are doing and The overall success of the mission and um and it's because they don't see it right they don't see it when they're out there in the grind you know every day you got to constantly help them see how what they do contributes to the overall success of the mission and how it's going to ultimately benefit them as well so I don't think as a leader you can remind people of that enough and I

mean I I planned the the so many major operations to go and take areas of that City back and we were the lead element on the ground with this you know th a thousand soldiers and Marines and the all the tanks everything we talked about and when we got back jao put this slide together he he was tasked with going and giving a brief to like the I think it was the chief Naval operations you know the senior Admiral in the Navy and um and he put the slide together and it showed the map of

raditi it showed the red areas that were alqa of battle space Where when we'd arrive and and told don't go they're all going to get killed and then it showed these blue circles going in with these combat outposts the US Outpost that went in and then it showed like and and each one had like what what our seal involvement was um and how we supported them and then it would have like yellow and green kind of expanding out and you and and and he put this it was like a building slide you know on on

a Microsoft PowerPoint slide And so the map overlay with this building slide and before he went to brief just just Jo was a great leader he always was like Hey man take a look at this tell me what you think um and he played that slide for me and I was like damn dude like that's what we freaking did like I never put it together like that before wow never and it was um I I planned and Leed every every single almost every single one of Those operations that that are the blue circles that are

going in like we were the first boots on the ground for these you know I was intimately involved in the planning for these things some of them were weaks in in planning you know and uh and when he saw my reaction that he was like he I had never put it all together cuz man I'm coming back for M man we lost Mark we lost Ryan like I'm like man I know we made a like we certainly had Some impact there but do we have any lasting impact back like should we should we have done

what we did like all these questions right that I'm constantly running in my head all the time and when he put that together I was like that's what we did that's what we contributed we we contributed to take that City back and and you you could see it in the combat Outpost knowing that hundreds or maybe a thousand soldiers and Marines for each one of those blue Circles are going in um you know that that these are people that dozens of them might have not come home to their families otherwise you know and uh so

when you when you start putting that together what's cool about that Sean is you know we got all split up and kind of win our separate race and I have had the chance over the years to pull some of my guys together and and and show them that slide do you still have that slide I do have that slide and I can I put it up on Screen absolutely and it will be uh it was when I showed them that slide they say the exact same thing damn dude I had no idea that's what we

did that's cool man and so I think it's a reminder that like you can't do that enough as a leader and it's one of the most tumbling lessons I learned of like if I had just taken the time to take a step back remind people about what they're doing how the impact you know I'm our mutual friend Jake you know that we went Through buds with was was a machine gunner for us I remember him telling me um you know he's like man I'm just carrying this machine he's carrying this 600 round load out and

this machine gun and and we put I mean we put Optics on those machine guns because we they needed P ID they weren't using like the ACOG to to to the G but we needed a p a Target so I mean it's it's getting heavier right with all this gear you're putting on it's probably weighs 20 lbs You know and you're carrying you know 600 rounds each of those 100 round boxes is what 7 and a half pounds they're carrying plus you got helmet body armor water you know all this stuff and they're patrolling multiple

kilometers to get in you know some of these areas particularly in the rural areas outside the city when we were doing some of that work and um I remember Jay coming to me being like dude I'm just security detail for Chris and snipers man And um and I was like man I have just failed him as a leader I was like I was like Jake when we get attacked which is pretty much every operation and we have three dozen enemy Fighters trying to overrun our position we're not beating back that attack with a bolt action

rifle bro we're beating back that attack because of you and your machine gun and that machine gun has saved Our Lives over and over and over again we could do none of This without you carrying that heavy Firepower and then we talked a little bit about um I was like how many times have you like shot your your load out you know your entire load out and uh he was like I don't even know like I don't even know like he didn't even know and and it was interesting because I talked to um I talked

to some of the Vietnam seals and uh uh some guys that were machine Gunners including Moi Martin who's a Phenomenal seal if you remember Moi um was just a legendary West Coast seal six deployments to Vietnam um um amazing guy and he was telling me like we were just talking about like how many how many times they actually like changed the belt on their machine on their Stoner you know their M60 and it was like in his six appointments he was he told me it was just a it was a handful of times like a

you know they would break contact and they would break off and I was like Well how many times did you guys shoot your you know like your entire load out of beled rounds your car and he's like I don't ever remember the time doing that and so you know Jake and our machine Gunners did that I mean like almost every single operation we went on so I think I had I did not help him understand just how important he was for the mission and how he was contributing to the mission we couldn't do any of

this without uh all the work the snipers Were doing and making Precision shots is not possible without those Bel fed machine Gunners you know guys like Jake guys like Mark guys like Ryan and Mikey Monsour that were out there you know uh carrying that heavy equipment so every leader I think has to do that and then when you can put it in cont you're you're just consistently empowering your gu every chance you get well I think the lesson is that I Was I wasn't doing a good enough job of I did not do a good

enough job of taking a step back and realizing like hey they don't know that and they don't know that cuz I'm not telling them that's what you you did that's the lesson I brought back is like I got to do a better job of telling them of letting them know what they're doing why you know why they're doing the impact they're actually having what's the Strategic impact that they're actually happened so you know I think When you've got people on your team that are in the grind you know their head down they're doing a thankless

you know what seems like kind of thankless work you know whether it's editing videos or posting social media Clips or you know scheduling travel for podcast whatever it may be it is um it is absolutely imperative that you constantly remind them about how important their job is and how what they do contributes to the overall success of the mission and how That ultimately is going to benefit them you know down the road as your team continues to to grow and expand I think it's every Leader's job to do that man there's some great great advice

in this one thank you so after the after the the I'm sorry the the the the the leadership what was the unit what where did you I'm sorry um after the next after your next station so I went back I talked that Junior officer course for two years um and tried to teach you know Those Junior officers everything I wish someone had taught me before I went into a tough combat situation and um and then uh then I went to uh the uh the director of training um was uh was was an awesome leader who

came to me and said hey why don't you come be my operations officer of at s team one and and um that was uh he was that was Keith Davids who was our uh just just uh stepped down as our our Naval special Warfare Admiral he was a phenomenal Leader and was an awesome guy to work for so got a chance to um got a chance to go and serve with him as operations officer uh at at se team did another deployment to Iraq supported some guys in Afghanistan um you know we sent to to

we sent guys to multiple locations around the world but uh I was pretty frustrated on that deployment man like sitting in you know we did a i i the theme was to like I had said for all our guys in Iraq We were trying to embrace mediocrity and like not operate a bunch so that we could try to pull our guys and move them to Afghanistan where the fight was going pretty hot and heavy that was 2009 and 10 um and so things were kind of just r ramping up for like the uh you know

the Marine push down into margia and Helman Province and some of these big operations that were going on and and kind of the Taliban strong holes um in in helmet in Condor Province and um and We didn't do a good job of embracing mediocrity because we did a ton of operations um but I don't think got a single seal on the on on that operation in a r we captured a bunch of bad guys and you know disrupted some some Terror cells and and guys did great work man we had an awesome team um but

uh I don't we didn't have a single seal fires weapon and anger in Iraq on that deployment and uh and meanwhile you know it just was Marines are getting Blowing up all the time you know soldiers getting killed and and in Afghanistan and it was very frustrating to me you know uh every time we tried to say like hey we can send more guys to Afghanistan we can support you know the the conventional units and they're moving into these Villages and Taliban stronghold areas we can do what what taskin Bruiser did for the you know

for for the army marines in in the urban environment um just it from The High Ground you know on the ridgel lines with with seal snipers and we would constantly get told like no demand signle for more seals what changed I think it was a force cap um you know President Obama approved like The Surge The Surge numbers there um and I think there was just a I think there was some there was force cap limitations hey we we Serge forces is there but we're only going to serve X number of forces so people are

tracking Everybody that's there and frankly I don't know that there was a lot lot of appetite in our senior in our senior leaders um I think there was more of a there was kind of a a a an argument going on that we should be more on the kind of the find fix and let the kind of host nation forces do the the Finish piece you know you know it was a really interesting time I mean I had no idea you were you were uh send a guys down to Maria in helmond at the time

and I was down there Contracting for the agency we had a safe house get hit and um I remember the it was supposed to be the biggest offensive the second biggest offensive force of the entire global war on terrorism since fuia and they had a amassed a ton of Marines down there to do this push and then I remember when the Roes came out for the military that they were somebody could Shoot at you and drop their weapon and you you could not engage them and you know I just I remember hearing that and and

thinking like holy [ __ ] you just Cho the [ __ ] legs out from every Marine down here that you want to conduct this massive offensive force with and it was just it was it was mind-blowing to me like talk about demoral izing your [ __ ] people I can only imagine Sean there's there's no way you can win right it's what I talked about before right if you're going to go to war man you got to have the will to kill the enemy and you got to have the will to die and and

I mean there's this is what it takes to win and I think the uh the you know my frustration was that we didn't we couldn't we couldn't get hardly anybody involved in it so you know we had one troop that was working out of condar at The time and they kind of got split up um uh and and task to some different provinces and we had some guys did some great work there man and and and made a difference you know it made an impact for sure they did awesome awesome work uh did a bunch

of combat operations that killed a bunch of bad guys and opened up some areas that Taliban had kind of controlled before and you know enable freedom of movement for US forces and kind of push the white space back around Some of those bases where they kind of you know uh kept people you know in where they're attack the moment they get off a base but we couldn't get more people there and you know we only had a handful of guys that supported you know some of the Marines pushing into those areas um and the whole

time like you know the there was just a push back with the naval special Warfare and and um I just felt like uh to me that was probably the the Number one driver you know our our friend Elliot that um a month after we left from myti got blown up um coming out of a sniper OverWatch position he'd been wounded the uh one of the insurgents had crep up near his position and literally like roll the grenade through a loophole so he's sitting there on the sniper weapon and they pushed a grenade through the loophole

they like snuck up like somehow jump from rooftop to Rooftop push the grenade grenade goes Off wounds him in the arm so as he's getting cacked um you know they called in the the Bradley Fighting Vehicles as they're getting cazac they clocked off a big ID on him and um think he like ripped an Iraqi soldier in half in front of him and blew him up you know really bad he lost a leg um hor I think there were white phosphorous shells willly Pete shells so like horrible burns on on his body and and um

and uh yeah man he just was like man you remember Ellie's Just as good a dude as there is you know just an awesome awesome team guy and uh we'd serve together still team five and been to buds together serve together still team five then I turned over with him I REM remember seeing him and my close friends that were now relieving me you know as we went home and I remember seeing him in the turret turret of a 50 cal a man in the 50 cal and a turret of a humie about make the

push across down that Horribly dangerous road rout Michigan that was the most heavily ided Road in all of Iraq and he was like all smiles like fired up you know and I was just man just just said prayers to you know protect these guys and look out for them I knew what they were up against you know um and I think it was November 19th like he he got and one of the other seals got injured like like uh thought he lost both his legs like just you know was like blasted on his back from

the I He lifted his legs up in the air but his like his tib fib is like like he's got double compound fractur so like all he sees is like his stomp so he lifts his legs up they're like hanging down so thought he lost his legs and that guy thank God end up recovering and had you know these titanium inserts into the legs like amazing amazing guy um but Elliott was in was in real bad shape man and uh I uh so I spent a bunch of time with him uh when he came back

to the States um and he went to uh Brook Army Medical Center which is primary burn care fac you know center for the U for the the military and um you know just seeing some of the guys were in the ICU there coming out of Iraq at the time was was a horrific horrific thing man um just knowing like you know you see these soldiers Marines with like their faces burned off and no fingers and like no ears and noses and lips and stuff gone and just and many of them still like you Know they're

they're making the best of it man you know um they're happy to be alive and they're continue on their lives and and it was it was man those those guys were just just Heroes man just Heroes just awesome uh their their attitude on life and uh but it made me wish that we'd put a lot more of those in surgence of the dirt then we did and we did everything we could um but then when I you know as I was serving I would go over in Elliot Then went to U he then went to

baloa Naval Hospital and so I was going up there and visiting with him and and I'd see a bunch of those marines that were coming in coming in from Helman Province and Conor Province and plac like sangan and you know uh Maria and you know legs gone arms gone you know yeah um and and to me it was I think that was kind of the final straw for me of like man this is we can help these guys and and you know we're not being allowed to do it For political reasons whatever those are whoever

responsible you know and and you know I felt like it was uh that was that was probably the final straw for me of like you know I think it's time for me to probably get out yeah do something different how was it getting out for you A lot of people with that hard like I never wanted to do anything else you know and uh have you met your wife yet I did I met her she uh put up with a final deployment for me we Were dating so she so you married her in service well

we didn't get married till right as I left okay so um we uh we got engaged right as I got back from my my last deployment so I I was like you know we're going to put her to the test see how she does to the deployment but we had met at the uh the seal Warrior fund event you know which is the the uh the big fundraiser for the SEAL Teams in New York City and and um in October 2008 so the financial world has just melted down And yet we still had some very

patriotic Americans that giving money to support seals and their families and and um it was uh it was it was Elliot was there for that Ryan Joe was a speaker for that in fact I I I don't think I would even have spoken I I don't think I would have attended if Ryan job called me and said uh dude if you're not if you're not going to this we're never talking again so he's he was a speaker he gave an Amazing speech um you know and they handed him the speech like the night before and

he's like hey Knuckleheads I can't read I'm blind um someone's gonna have to read this to me so you're gonna have to you know give me the speech but he yeah he he gave a fantastic speech man and we were all there because um because the the Mur family had wanted Mike's teammates to be there you know Mike had received the the the Medal of Honor for jumping on a grenade to save His two teammates on either side of him and um my our teammate and you know Del platoon and um and so the the

mour family had had uh had asked that Mikey's teammates be there so they FW bunch of us out there and and uh it was uh it was amazing I sat right next to Mike's mom Sally who um as as I I met Jenna for the first time at this pretty red hair girl I was like what's what's her deal want to get to know her better and uh I told her that we had you know she worked at Fox News I told her that fox was on uh in our tacal Operation Center she's like well

if you guys want come by I'll give you a tour and so we uh I brought me Seth Stone and another one of his guys uh by who were like the biggest like wannabe Lady Killers ever they were just spitting game and everybody from the the you know the the the interns to the you know to the uh to the anchors and uh and and Jenna who's just put them just just put everybody in your place like didn't Take any of that stuff from anybody um and then I took her out that that night like

I talked her into coming and meeting us for I drank and and I took her to meet Elliott she met Elliott and you know was instantly like loved Elliot and you know was uh um was was fast friends with them and and um and so the the rest was kind of history there man but that was that was another contributing factor for me certainly to get out I mean I had you know we had Been dating two and a half years on the opposite sides of the country I was station in San Diego she was

in New York City closest the Navy was going to get me was the Pentagon I had zero interest in being a staff officer at the Pentagon um and uh and so I was like it's it's time for me to move on what was it about her that that got you man she's beautiful she's smart uh and she's got an amazing heart and um she asked Me within like two minutes 3 minutes like she'd probably learned more about SEAL Teams than anybody like you know people might like oh you're a seal like oh that's that's cool

like oh that's really neat or oh I'm soing art you know like people you know that that uh might say something like that but she was she was like how how do you guys train exactly you know how often do you play and and where you know what is what's what's the training like and you know How you organized like she asked all these just like interesting questions um and uh and I was like I'm definitely want to get to know know her better and um it was uh yeah man um I I just I

knew right away I texted I texted somebody when I was leaving New York City of like I just I just I just met the future Mrs Babin first girls in the phone book yeah right on man how long have you guys been married now 13 years 13 years Congratulations what is the secret to a successful marriage man The Secret of successful marriage is Extreme ownership it's extreme ownership man if um because it's also it's the most important place that you can apply these leadership Concepts we've been talking about it's also the hardest because you're so

emotionally tied to someone you know and your ego is evolved and like and uh I could tell you that when I start pointing fingers and Casting blame and making excuses my wife reminds me that I wrote a book called Extreme ownership and I should start taking some so she she definitely puts me in my place and uh and I'm like Jack uh but all the things that like any team needs to be successful right cover Move we talked about is like this is we got to cover Move for each other on the home for with

the kids with work like around the house you know whatever it is uh we Got to be able to cover and move for each other we got to communicate in a man of simple clear concise it's not that hey I you know she asked me to do something I need to give you a readback to make sure that I understand you know what it is that I need to do um I need to ask for some clarification I need to make sure that you know just because I asked her to do something she'll put some

out the morning like okay this kid the kids need to be here here and here You know and then she thinks that like it that doesn't all process in my brain right I got to write it down I have to reference it um so uh prioritize and escute there's going to be a billion things going on at the same time you know for the family we got to be able to Pivot and be flexible and and shift to emerging priorities um and uh stay detached particularly from our emotions when somebody's like you know had enough

like the kids are kind of you know they Got you what in and you're frustrated to be like hey bab I I got the kids I got this I'm going to take them out for for a little bit you know just I don't need to ask what she needs me to do I don't need to ask her where she needs me to help I can just step in you know and then decentralize I think if we all kind of understand we understand like what's the goal what's the goal we're trying to do um and I

think when we do that that uh that enables us to to to we can all Work together toward that goal you know she may she may do something that's slightly different than I might have wanted it done or I might have not thought about doing it in that way but if it gets us toward the goal that we're trying to accomplish if it helps us to raise you know uh some some patriotic God-fearing competent um kind-hearted children you know that are going to be good members of a contributing members to their society and and Community

um That's what we want man that's what we're trying to do so I think uh um I think letting some things go sometimes you're like you these little pet peas you know yeah I think that's the most important thing of like okay if she's doing something that's annoying me it's not her fault it's actually my fault it's my fault and uh that's I I need to I need to figure out a way to like take ownership of that and like fix that um great advice I think That's I think that's the key let's move into

your transition into into civilian life how how was that for you did you find it I mean you know there's no secret there's a suicide epidemic going on in the veteran community a lot of addiction a lot of alcoholism a lot of drugs a lot of womanizing a lot of I mean it's just it's it's really a nasty time in a lot of our lives and I'm wondering if you experienced any of That lot of depression lot of resentment lot of anxiety I I certainly I think I experience some depression anxiety um I think when

all of a sudden the that I had always wanted to do with my life is like now behind me you know and now what you know uh and I think that's a that's a that's a freaking hard thing man you know it's hard for anybody do you feel like you wrapped a lot of your identity into being a Seal I don't know if I wrapped my identity into being a seal I I loved it I mean I just I just thought it was the best job in the world you know and even though it's look

it's not this it's not without frustrations right it's not that it's as I as I got further up the chain of command and in the SEAL Teams you get further away from the guys you like to be around and the the job that you like to do so I mean I just an example that I was at the the I was at the Special Operations task uh task force like a headquarters and we were in ratti um just down the street from Camp Markley we named the shark base camp Markley and then uh and and

so the what had been a former kind of uh Intel base was was uh was named after Mike monor so I was at Camp Mike mon we were working out of there and man there was you know I think we had 180 people at the at the Special Operations Task Force Headquarters and I think there were like six seals there You know so it was we were great people there all all performing a important function um but it was you're just getting further away from the guys you like to be around and the things you

actually like to do so um I think you know when you you you you're completely removed from that right when you get out and so then it's like okay now what um and I was going to do like a lot of people do go back to school cuz it's kind of a transition and you know there Was you can get paid you get a you get money through the post 9911 GI Bill and so I was going to kind of Follow that path and for whatever crazy reason I thought I was going to go law

school and I had some people help me out because my grades were atrocious in college but pull some strings and like get me into law school and like you know uh I was accepted a forom law school in New York City um and uh and so it was just right down the road from where my you know Wife was living at the time and and uh so we just got married and and and man I started this like two we kind of academic enrichment program they called it which was like the for the people that

been out of school like me or didn't make good grades like me and uh and so they they as I started it I just realized like man I had zero in common with the other students in the class and as we started to study law cases and things like that I'm like I don't think This what I want to do um you know and this is a three-year program I have to spend three years doing this um and uh and then uh Extortion 17 happened you know and uh you know largest loss of life in

the single in the history of the sealed teams helicopter shot down um Brian bill you know Derek Benson both at our buds class awesome dudes you know both lost on that I knew another a handful of guys that were on that too I'm sure you did And um and Bri Brian Bill had just been my my wedding a month before that you know it was crushing it was crushing and um it was uh I mean he actually like finagled the deal he stayed to like go to like a jump Master school so that he could

like stay late go to the wedding and then he like flew you know flew overseas to you know to meet his meet his unit and um yeah it was just horrible man it was just a reminder of something that you and I both know right Which is life is too short man you can't waste a day of it man can't waste a day of it so I immediately deferred law school I was like I'm not going to spend three years going to school um and so then it was like well now what now what I

do so I go into into different law school I'm like I don't have a job I'm not employed I don't know what I want to do you know I had people offer me some positions in like the finance sector and I went in and like Saw what they were doing you know the Traders and and I was like I don't care how much money they make like I I would rather I would rather uh Shear my testicles off with a rusty B Kitty scissors then sit here in front of this like you know trading like

it just wasn't what I wanted to do you know and uh it it was um and so we went out to this little place down the way had some good margaritas and and I was sitting there With my my wife Jenna and she says what what are you g to do now you know I was like I I have no idea she's like what is it you love to do like what are you passionate about and um I said seal platoon Commander is the best job in the world like that was the favorite job in

the well I'll do that over again in a second if I could but I can't and even even if I could do it I wouldn't be deployed ratti you know like there's no there's no uh I can't go back and and Relive that again but as she kind of asked me that question I thought about I was like the next best thing was teaching leadership to those Junior officers that two years that I spent training those Junior officers putting 130 something SE offers through training and uh trying to pass on all the less stff which

someone had taught me like it was incredibly rewarding to see those guys grow as Leaders take on that you know lessons that we learned Apply it get better and then I see them go forward go you know places that I didn't deploy or didn't have any combat um experience with like like Afghanistan they they would come home and say this this was GameChanger thank you for teaching us hey you taught me this leadership concept I applied that it made a huge difference you know we focus on building these relationships you know damn opened up all

kinds of opportunities for us these guys all kept In touch with it a bunch of them did a bunch of them did yeah you know I've lost touch with with some of them but they it was awesome man it was so rewarding to see that and um and to know the lesson that we learned and that we paid such a heavy price for you know a tasking a Bruiser were being passed on and uh and so when I said that my wife said call jako start a company so I did and we launched launched a

company that became na la front how'd that Conversation go Joo let's start a let's start a company said let's start a leadership company he sent Roger that let's do it well what was he doing at the time uh he was working for a mortgage company and and teaching leadership for that mortgage company and kind of helping them uh kind of in their process and they kind of they basically like carved out like a you know I think they made Jo willink was working at a mortgage Company interesting he learned a ton about leadership right and

how it applied to the business world and saw all the problems that they were having you know from the inside and so from that he taught me a ton about what learned you know from there I thought Echelon front was my idea Sean for about a year and a half and then I realized that just like this is joo's way like about about jao retired in uh October 2010 so about a Year before uh I left active duty and um and he he was I went over was like cleaning out his cage i d I

was like I was like man it's a you know it's a sad it's going to be a sad day in the Jocko the SEAL Teams here you know when you get out and uh and he said I I forgot about this conversation we had a conversation and he we were standing in his office at at training Detachment you know and he said um he said uh what would it take to bring you on board to Start like a leadership Consulting business and I I threw out some number that I thought was like gargin right it

was like barely you know barely six figures you know it just seemed like like uh um it seemed like the most gargantuan number in the world compared to my like Navy paycheck and um and uh so he had planted that scene like a probably a year and a half before we had that conversation um and I I forgot about it for a long time uh and that's Kind of joo's way right that indirect approach of like playing the seat he wasn't he wasn't like hey remember when I said that like it he doesn't care who

gets the credit like this is this is what good leadership looks like that's cool man and so how did it develop it developed uh the very first year I made less than half my Navy paycheck and I was like this thing is never going to pay the bills and thank God my wife had a great job let me let Me re what was the original what was the original plan but what were you guys doing at the very beginning the plan was to teach leadership the plan was to teach leadership the same leadership Concepts that

I taught in that Junior officer attorney course the same leadership concept that he taught when he was running training Detachment to who to companies to to to anybody that wanted to talk about leadership and uh and the I had just to back up a little Bit I had the first epiphany that that I recognize that leadership applies everywhere there was a company that did an offsite to San Diego big Corporation kind of in Rapid growth mode and they had had like a so they had a leadership offsite San Diego and somehow they got connected to

someone at the Seal team like one of one of the junior officers that I put through training and he was one of my um he was one of my um uh he'd been an assistant plon commander and Then was the platoon commander and and and he said hey this company's going to come by um was a retired his I think it been his former like his the the CEO cuz he he was a low of transfer from the service Fleet like me so he'd been on a Navy ship and the the commanding officer of that

ship had retired and was running this kind of leadership Consulting business and so he was bringing this team of I don't know 10 or 12 Executives by and and so he's like hey would will You come and talk to him about the stuff that you taught us in you know the junior officer training course I was like well how long is it going to be he like uh I don't know man 20 minutes whatever you know something like that just short just you know put out some share a thought answer a question or two you

know that's about it and so we went in there and and um and I talked a little bit about um I talked a littleit about leadership and like what we were Trying to teach these you know the the I mean even just like putting the team in the mission first right it's not about you sharing resources across the entire organization they just started firing questions and uh and we were in there for an hour and a half of just non-stop like questions being fired and uh and I I didn't know anything but the military I

mean like you like I I I went to the Naval Academy out of the out of high school and so I was 18 years old I I Never knew anything about the civilian World other than part-time jobs you know that I worked in high school but um it was the first Epiphany for me of like hey everything that we learn here applies and the world needs this the world needs leadership leadership is the solution to people's problems they they don't know that they don't know it and what we understood is that leadership is a skill

it's a skill that we're not born with is a skill that we have to learn And you're not just like you don't know how to play the piano when you're born or drive a car or you know shoot a basketball or wrestle or whatever it is like you have to learn that stuff you might have some innate abilities that give you an advantage over others you know that may maybe give you a leg up on others but if you're not willing to learn the skill you're not going to improve you're not going to get better

and I think leadership is exactly the Same way and I I witnessed that over and over again when I was teaching that course because I saw um leaders who might have what you might think are a lot of of um innate leadership qualities that that would be important right like they were charismatic they could you know they weren't nervous to stand up in front of a room and present an idea or talk to their team um and then you had other leaders that were super introverted like didn't want to you know Like were terrified to

stand up in front of a group and present an idea and of course I made them do that all the time you know to try to get them used to that but what I realized is that even people that you might have think have all this Advantage with these inequalities of Charisma or you know they're kind of a you know loud you know person that that they kind of people gravitate toward or they can engage with people and if that person wasn't willing to learn if that Person wasn't willing to hum humble themselves and that

get better and apply you know and and take ownership of mistakes they made and apply uh the skill of leadership going forward to improve like they didn't get better they they they struggled and some of them actually got fired uh and and maybe even had the birds pulled and and you know left the teams as a result um and yet I watch leaders who who who were terrified to Stand up in front of a group like super introverted like the quiet spoken kind of soft spoken types maybe didn't have any of the what you might

Define as an INE quality that might give people an advantage of leadership and they did awesome I mean they were phenomenal as as long as they they were willing to learn they were willing to approve and they were willing to get better all the time and and I'd see those guys go um some guys who struggled in the field Training exercise portion of that that that uh course that I ran and I and I I would see them get better and then and watch them go out on the battlefield and do amazing things man and

have their guys talk about what an extraordinary leader they were and how they made you know just how they saved lives or uh you know were able to build relationships or vector resource I mean just incredible stuff and and so that to me it was a recognition of like every everything That we learn applies you know to to people in the corporate world in the business world we work with people in the nonprofit sector in the education space you know First Responders we do a ton of work in uh with First Responders um and uh

anywhere that people want to talk about leadership I think we we take the lessons that we learn and we talk about how it can apply and I think we total it up last year at the end of last year we' worked with something like 1,600 companies and organizations over the last uh 1600 wow how many of those you know we had talked about a lot of the the seals that went through the leadership course with you you'd heard from you know after later on in their career about what worked and and and do you do

you get a lot of that in the civilian world as well we do we definitely do and it's super rewarding man it's it's our why right it's sometimes when you're in the Grind and you're traveling and you're gone from home a lot and I'm always thankful for the opportunities that we have you know it's it's amazing to see I mean even after you know we're we're pushing um this month marks the uh the 9th anniversary of the publication of extreme ownership um and uh the fall Dy leadership that was published in 2018 was now been

been re-released but there's still people driving the sales of that book through Word of Mouth People are people are reading it buying five copies for their team buying it for their you know their kids buying it for their family members um and that kind of word of mouth of like hey this has been impactful and it's been amazing to see that that and when people come come back to us and tell us that you know extreme ownership saved their marriage you know when they were blaming their wife for all their problems and you know the

wife blaming their husband for all their Problems or you know having issues with their kids and and um or or they were frustrated at work uh that they were in a hopeless situation and didn't feel like they had any influence on the organization didn't think that their leaders cared about them and and they were able to start to take ownership of those problems and lead up the chain of command um it's amazing to see it's amazing to see uh the impact that has and it's it's just humbling and Mystifying to me man to see how

um you know how those lessons continue to be applied and uh I just it's it's I'm Blown Away by it over and over and over again and uh about how how people are taking and utilizing this and it's it's not me that's doing it it's not Joo that's doing it we just shared some lessons learned that they actually have to apply that's the hard part you know I can share some concept with you that can then that can help you um but it's it's Up to you to actually put your own ego in check have

an honest assessment with yourself and actually you know Implement a solution to get problem solved going forward and I think you know for us probably the best thing that we do is just help people realize what winning looks like what does winning look like you know is is it what does winning look like for you um and when you start to think about that from a detached perspective it's not about how much Money you make right it's it's it's not about you know proving that you're right um you know if you're in a conflict with

someone it's actually about um it's about building the strongest relationships that you can you know with people and having the most impact in the world that you can and spending time with the people that you love and care about most you know that that's most important and and so I think when we can get people attachment their emotions Kind of put their ego in check and like if you and I have a conflict at a company and we let's say we're fighting over resources and we're two department heads I want those resources you want the

resources you know I'm I'm in there like lobbying to have the resources taken away from you um you know or some case that may be so it might be we'll see conflicts that that get created so bad that we might have to only we can only communicate with through like Mediated email by HR this is what happens wow human conflicts and you're like wow crazy when when when you can help someone say like hey uh is it important is that other department important for like what you're trying to do in your department like yeah it

is okay do you think it's important that you have a good relationship with the the leader of that department like yeah probably is you know and so like when You when you can't communicate with someone except for immediate email by HR does that do you think that makes you look what does that look like to everybody else as a leader you know when you can when you can help them start to reveal the truth what's the chairman of the board thinking about what's the CEO what's the senior executive team thinking about you like how's that

do you think you're ever going to get a chance to be promoted up the chain you Know if you can't actually get along with people and work alongside and build a friendly Coalition so you guys can actually cover and move for each other usually support one another so that the team can win and when you get people start to think about leadership like that and they realize like oh you know they're looking at this little tactical victory of like I'm trying to get the best of this person you know that I'm going to demand that

that I get the Resources from them and that's what winning looks like and it's really the opposite right what if I care about the team like I should be in their Lobby and for you to get the resources like hey you know what um Sean we got some limited resources here your team needs these resources more than my I I think my team can probably do without until we can get you know more resource available I'm G to give these resources to you we're going to build an awesome Relationship man I'm going to help the

team win that's I'm I'm showing everybody I put the team and the mission before myself or my team in our own interests and uh and it's like this is what it takes right to to if I want to be a winning a member of a a high performance winning team like that's the attitude I could have and and when you when you start to just get people to see like what winning actually looks like um it's it's often very different than well You know you got if you can put your emotions in check put your

ego in check it just you free your mind man you know this sounds like a lot more of a uh lot more than just a leadership training course sounds like a a a way of life and uh that can help you with all aspects you know what you're going through with your family with your business wherever wherever in the military doesn't matter sounds like these aspects apply to to every every Aspect of life and uh that's really cool that you guys put that together I appreciate it man it's I honed to be able to share

that and uh it's uh it's it's like I said it's humbly it's humbly to see how many people taken and and utilize that you know but if I can help even one person out there in some way to not make this mistakes that I've made as a knucklehead leader to not lead with ego or try to prove that I know you know all the answers um I think uh that to me Makes all the difference right of of the uh it's in life right it's it's it's be humble or get humble that's the way it

is so um happy to pass those lessons on thank you well Leif um you know we're wrapping up the interview now and I just um I just want to say uh you know it really was man it was it was great to reconnect and um but it was a real honor to to have you here to share what you shared with about everything man especially you know the Your Darkest Day I mean and I uh I really commend you for how you handled that and and and and and how you described the guys that have

passed and and um man you're just a you're just a hell of a guy LA and and uh a true leader and um I appreciate you I wish I was better Sean I wish I was better man and uh and I think um I'm I'm just on the path you know trying to learn from my mistakes like everybody else and uh I hope that people can take take those Mistakes and learn from and a PL going forward it's a it's an honor to be here with you brother I can't I'm so proud of of uh

all that you're doing in the world man you got such an important voice on so many topics that you know other people aren't willing to tackle or take on and uh I couldn't I couldn't be more uh you know we were joking on her before we started this I never guessed we were working together in buds with 18-year-old Sean that you would that you Would have the uh the Wardrobe with so many uh so many uh uh sport coats out there to put on but uh it's awesome man and uh so proud of you love

love what you're doing keep doing it man you're making a huge difference in the world thank you man and um and just for the record I personally learned a ton uh about leadership talking to you today and so thank you man God [Music] bless no matter where you're watching Sha Ryan Show from if you get anything out of this please like comment subscribe and most importantly share this everywhere you possibly can and if you're feeling extra generous please leave us review on Apple and Spotify podcasts