Subramanian Swamy Ruthlessly CRITICIZES Modi, India’s Taxation System, and the Future Economy

Where did this lack of fear come from were your father and mother particularly Fearless as individuals I'm today opposing Mr Modi which no one else in my party would thereare to do if you were made PM what would you do my first step would be to abolish income tax dollar is 8655 rupees today be 8 rupes only when the government makes it 86 on what basis they do all are making money on this but is this number not collectively decided by the market forces of the world no no no no this is decid in the

reserve B raguram Rajan scatterbrain unfit K adani adani is a maestro he's making a fool of everybody Rahul Gandhi Rahul Gandhi I know nothing about him except that he seems to a dumb guy I will say very clearly today that Modi is perhaps one of the most evil man I've ever met what do you think about Modi not being invited to Donald Trump's inauguration I knew it was coming if by chance Trump comes back to Power Modi is going to be the the hardest hit it was Rajiv who made us in fact he wanted me

to be the the Prime Minister why not take the Position for [Music] himself Dr Swami thank you for allowing me into your lovely house come home uh office very happy to be here I have a series of questions yes but I want to start off slow and then build up gradually um you know something I I've just uh gathered as I was reading through the books you've written your tweets and I was glancing through your interviews I noticed that this India's uh political establishment whether it was in the ' 80s the' 70s the '90s and

even now MH has uh constantly isolated you and tried to perhaps uh quell your speech and try to force you to the fringes but you seem to keep coming back with stronger and stronger Vengeance and perhaps that's become your and I want to understand the the Inception of this at at what point did you start getting uh black ball in Indian politics at what point did you stop Towing whatever Party Line you happen to belong to and when did you become a thorn in many establishment side well first of all uh I would like to

say that on one issue there's been no change all through since I entered politics in 1970 I became a Member of Parliament uh in 74 uh I was to be a member Of parliament on in 1972 itself but I didn't I had not I just come back from America and U my name was not on the voter list so that's how it couldn't become I joined an party called janang which at that time was thought as no future but then J prash Naran came and I knew jash because when I was teaching at Harvard he

came and the university actually assigned him to me so to speak to take him around and someone so jash R started a movement and he wanted me to be there and the Jang was a small relatively small party at that time the Congress o and moraji Desai and others were much larger but I became acceptable to everybody uh because uh of the fact that I'd been a professor and I had made a big name was a joint author with Paul Samuelson all that and and a thesis adviser of Simon quis as both Nobel laats so

uh I didn't have any problem at all and most people liked my Approach in Parliament when I joined went to rajas SAA to begin with in 1974 when I had Mrs Gandhi almost in tears uh in one case when uh I declare showed that Sonia Gandhi was uh a insurance agent and all insurance companies Owned by government uh were using utilizing her you know something which is illegal and Mrs Gandhi came quite redac and with almost tears saying that she has withdrawn from all that which means I was right they shouldn't have been there in

the first place and that gave a huge boost everything was okay then then the emergency came and I become quite a hero because I went underground I escaped uh they couldn't catch me they had 18 cases put on me but I went to America England uh and Canada three English speaking countries sorry is is insurance agent a euphemism for something else or just you just ins no she was you know selling uh say life insurance for on the LIC or some other issue for a car and all that and getting the insurance money for it

I mean the agent money for it okay but why would she do it as a national politician she was not a national politician 1972 74 she she was an Italian migrant in India who IND Sonia Gandhi yeah Sonia Gandhi was married to Rajiv Gandhi that time but neither of was of them was in politics I see okay and then so when the emergency was declared you sort of I guess you you know Bolden embolden Your stance against Inda Gandhi yes I don't know about those years I was frankly born in '97 so I've missed a

huge chunk I've just read some you know Illustrated books about the emergency that sort of broadly talked about it but many people talk about it as a particularly dark and trying time in our country's uh how do I say it like in in our democracy's uh past yeah how bad was it was it like you were fearing for your life all the time there was chaos and fear everywhere if you could just describe that perhaps no if I had fear my life I would have done what I did one of the things for which I

am celebrated amongst the still people were old enough to be adults at that time was uh despite a interpo interpo notice on my name I had gone to America and I was campaigning there then I went to Britain and Canada so Mrs Gandhi got uh you know Interpol notice issued on me yet I managed to come into India go into Parliament and make a 30 second speech and disappear and go back to America and that is what most of the elderly people remember today and because that was in I was called uh Scarlet Pimpernel I

was called all kinds of things all over the world because The all the democracies were focused on what's happening in India so that uh that made uh that change everything so it was not a I was living in America I was living in Canada I was living in and I was living like anybody else there and the Indian Community was totally backing me so therefore uh I I lived in houses of Indians and you know I never had any problem my uh wife had a lot of problem because in my house everything was attached so

she had to sit on the floor and you know the school we had two small girl children one is sasini who's now an editor and the other is ganali who is in the United States as a lawyer so um these two had to go to school so my wife had to take her take them and she was very brave and she written a book herself on her experiences which are worth reading where she describes on a daily basis what all that she went through so um but in the end we won so uh everybody has

forgotten everything yeah um so you must be 8 years old roughly when India gained independence uh yes I was born the end of September of 39 39 yeah so Wikipedia was writing this way because usually it's famous for inserting itself in places It should not belong in um you know it's I think with how fast technology is uh going there seems to be an Amnesia when it comes to our history like I think when I was a kid I used to read about India's independence and India's Republic day when I was just sitting with my

team and asking them who are the CMS of the 29 states in India and they could only say uh akat chind Andis and Yogi because they were sort of prominent CMS and and they thought krial is still the CM of Delhi but uh nothing against my team they can name all the PC Brands when I asked them uh it just shows that not only them but also me were like quite uh you know we have a lot of Amnesia but uh for someone who was an 8-year-old during the independence what were those years like like

what was it like did the Parliamentary security officers not uh catch no they see they had no idea I was coming okay so when they saw me they they asked me uh have you been let off so I said I didn't say I did it but I left that impression so they got puzzled so then the second thing is the normal police strength in the parliament was very low that day because Sonia Sanjay that the the brother of the other brother of Rajiv Gandhi Sanjay Gandhi he was holding some rally in U uh inia Supreme

Court and uh so all the policemen had gone there okay so there was hardly any police in uh Thing by the time they woke up to I mean the watch and watch staff couldn't decipher here the man just walking in one of them said to me so I said you were quite Brazen yeah yeah I was very cool I walked in the important thing was that I went in just as the time this speaker was naming the people who have been who have been dead in the inter interim right so I got up and said

uh Mr chairman you have forgotten that democracy also has died he said there's no no argument and he said everybody stand for 2 minutes silence because that was the last item right mine it was timed that way so in that time I walked off and these people are all stunned they don't know what to do and by the time they woke up uh I mean got their act together I was already on a on a railway train to Bombay and so so help me understand this where did this lack of fear come from were your

was your father were your father and mother particularly Fearless as Individuals did they instill certain values in you which because you know like if I think about myself today I think about this state as this giant megalit and I think about myself as an individual as very small and I can read the constition cover to cover but I still won't be able to ve my rights in a way where I feel secure to even go against this state right so I feel powerless in front of the state now I told you from childhood I was

Fearless I went to Turan gate when the riots were going on uh and stayed there for almost the whole day and nearly got lost and luckily found my way and came out um there all through incidents that I'm today opposing Mr mod which no one else in my party would dare to do yeah so there I think there has been a streak That Couldn't care less I mean it was basically I just couldn't get less nobody in my place of being a professor at Harvard leave America and come I came but are you are you

like many people are very eager to please they're eager to be liked and you know well diplomacy is is a helpful trait when you're in politics yeah are you okay with being isolated and Mis being misunderstood and I don't know what this only my enemies say I'm isolated I'm probably I been wife said it in the book she said you were ousted from listen that is where the issue comes I was certainly target targeted by one group of people and uh they got away with you know imposing things on me but then times changed for

instance in the emergency Mrs Gandhi got me dismissed I mean expelled from Parliament I was elected into to Parliament and she got a resolution passed in Parliament to expel me now later on she held the elections and she lost the election and I won from Bombay with one of the the largest margins and as a hero I came back and the first thing I did was to get a resolution passed expelling her and putting her in the jail now you know how can I have man like me be afraid when he finds the events in

his my his life has always been uh I bear it for some time and then suddenly I get what what I want yeah um for me it is very surprising to you for you to be in one of the big tent political parties of the country and to openly criticize yes the very leader the very I don't know benefactor the chief supro the prime minister of the country and Yet not have your membership revoked yeah um why why is that I think there are two aspects to it um one is that U uh today's prime

minister there was a time when he used to come to the railway station to pick up my bags to take me to a safe place during the emergency as an RSS as s worker he has an RSS PR so you've seen him rise and so you I've seen him from a long time he was in Viti parishad in 1972 and I came to address that meeting and he was the one who was that time was rolling out the carpets so I mean I've known him throughout and it was very cordial all through the day became

prime minister I don't know what happened to him and that's true with almost everybody else whether it's adani or you know J malani or any of these people uh he turned against them he doesn't want anybody else around except psychop fans so that's where the problem has come now today it's going to be very difficult because um the there was a time when I was expelled and that's when vajpai created the BJP out of the janta party and said no Swami can't come in it because I is talking about his very weak is drinking alcohol

is chasing women all that but you do you think that uh Making personal attacks that have nothing to do with their politics does that does that not is that not like a flavor that many people would not want in yourl if it is in your uh in your party's uh you know documents that you should not uh you should absor alcohol and then you should not be uh fooling around with women all these things are there in my party's uh platform so nobody can say that this is not and I think in our country also

we have uh this personal life is not for politicians uh free of uh being in the public life interesting I I do not know if you refer to the foreign minister as a viter I I don't know why that was uh I would love to know what you think about Modi not being invited to Donald Trump's inauguration I think and you you see yourself said on Twitter that uh he actually rallied on behalf of trump when they you know they jointly had a few public engagements yes um is that not a bad is that not

a bad uh like a perception for India for for being such a big powerful country in the global stage with the narrative being said that you know it's India's Century it's India's decade whatever and not being given an invite I Knew it was coming why is that what happened is uh uh Mr Modi in September last year uh decided to go to the United Nations and according to my information which I think is accurate he had called up Biden to say that he would like to come to Washington have a meeting with him and then

go to to the UN Biden told him I going to be in my hometown of Wilmington in uh in the north which is a little uh south of uh New York and we can have a meeting there of the Quad the four nations which were formed so therefore they went and had a meeting at quad now when the word came out in and our people moment to something America they putting it out everywhere including in the bathrooms and toilet rooms and so on you know so you know it was all over America so um Trump

was that time Underdog in the whole matter of the elections and this I'm talking about last September yeah and he made a statement oh Modi is coming he's my friend I'm going to meet him h and so Biden took umage of that and so must have said something to Modi and Modi made a public statement which I thought was totally Indiscreet saying no no I'm not going to meet Modi Donald Trump he said it in public yeah publicly and that time I told all my friends that's the end now if by chance Trump comes back

to Power Modi is going to be the hardest hit because you know people are saying know they're great friends they all Pals this that I said it's all gone with with the with the with Trump either you're all the way or none of the way damn damn no yeah because he despite everything Trump went on a podcast it's called the impulsive podcast it's a sorry uh flagrant it's a podcast run by a few Comedians and he was talking about how all the world leaders he's met are killers he described Modi as being someone that would

look like your father but uh can be can be uh very very uh brutal right um so he spoke very affirming about him but not being invited is a clear indication and then and then you also said that uh the Indian establishment had to literally beg to be given an invite and so the foreign minister is attending along with the Ambassador yeah he no no he's he's attending in The Enclave that the the area which is being put for the uh uh the the those people of different countries who whose Embassies are there so each

Embassy has been given a couple of seats so he's taken one of them and he's sitting next to the ambassador of India and right at the back damn and it is not something that they've asked him to do nothing when he came on on a on a mission they all in fact the more important thing is that the foreign minister refused to meet him he said you have not come for foreign affairs M matters so I don't have to meet you he asked for a meeting with him but he refused to meet him all this

doesn't come here this looks like a diplomatic affront what do you think because I for whatever reason I I love Trump I think he's a fantastic Communicator I think he's going to make America solid I think he's going to make Americans feel like what they've always believed that they're exceptional now every country is going to either cow under fear and just I know I don't know either fall in line what do you think this means for India well they for India we have lost already much before what happened with Mr Trump see you you call

you to make try to create the impression that we are with the American The very beginning yeah so Biden got excited and created this sad for of the uh Japan um Korea United States India Australia right uh not Korea but Australia now uh and he was very excited that you know like a NATO he's got one in in the eastern part next thing we Biden finds out is this guy has gone to meet Trump he excuse me he's going to meet the Russian monk um and you know say no no this is just a get

together body and it's not a it's not a strategic matter and so on one big drop for him there second thing that the Chinese crossed into what is Undisputed Indian Territory correct and took over 4,000 square kilometers and now they're building you know houses there and we have now signed an agreement agreeing to their take over that land but they will not produce a map so I was going to ask is if we have the no map is allowed I've tried I've gone to court and I said I need to know know the the latest

map of India what is the difficulty and the court doesn't cannot say no to me but they just this adment adment adment so this is the thing that he has sold out to the Chinese because of some things that happened when He was chief minister and he used to he had been 10 times in in some eight years of being chief minister and uh the man who received him was the ambassador of India and that was um our present uh um waiter yeah do do these people never come and say to you how dare you

say that about me when you say that when publicly privately no no they if they asking me they know that they have done wrong things in the past silly things um where uh uh they played a role as say foreign secretary cutting me out of this and cutting me out of that not allowing foreign leaders wanting who give names whom they want to meet any of those my name is cut off and um so um if I go abroad say to China they'll give advice to the Ambassador uh don't give him uh you know the

time of the day so those are the things which irritated me yes so it looks like you're a free agent even within the BJP where yeah yeah no I wouldn't say I'm a free I'm ideologic a darling of the bjb that is the RSS types of people you know the those who are committed to an ideology uhhuh there for them I'm a hero and uh if if they were to expel me well they will have a I mean there will be a lot of I mean I'm sure they have discussed this matter and the rses

must have taken a very strong stand that ideologically he is totally with us so only if his ideologically variation then we can think of expelling that we have done to so many others allow me to frame a long drawn out question because I've met members of the RSS uh in Mumbai where I also stay uh and I people will hate me for saying this some of the gentlemen who came and met met me I really like them uh because they said we want we don't want publicity we want to do this quietly this is what

we believe in and uh you know since I've hung out a lot with members of the new right in India they've helped me understand what hinda is um and this is roughly the definition I've gotten it is an anti- cast movement that unites Hindus across all cast lines where like cast becomes irrelevant um but on the other hand the left views it as Hindu Supremacy or militant Hinduism that often uh is based on violence so if you were to perhaps help me understand in according to you what is hinda you know removing the strong political

flavor or how It's being used to use as a football between two sides no no the question in Hindu was actually uh right from the 19th century has been a word which is been used and many of their Scholars have used it many of are known leaders have used it who fought during the fought the British mhm we we say there are some values of Hinduism which constitute what is hinda one is that uh one man can marry only one woman okay there have been instances of two three Etc but you know I'm not talking

about RAM for example went all the way because of one woman he was a king he could have easily have married any number right but the model is Rama okay and uh so uh so they like this you see our most of our whether it is our gods or whether it is our great men and so on uh take the the pandas see the uh the struggle with Duran and now each of them had their own status and so I would say hind is a a model for behavior and that means men and women are

equal and we give the example of dura um you know um uh the three goddesses who stand for Education uh stand for uh finance and stand for battle and of course you got Khali who's the Extreme as a as a as a continuation of Durga so Uh what we want every Hindu to know is that there is no one God all gods are there there's not one religion in the world all religions lead to God mhm so we we don't make any distinction it's only when you forcibly convert somebody that we object we Hindus will

never forcibly convert anybody you can't there's no no you if you want to be a Hindu you have to just declare yeah sure you say I'm a Hindu you're a Hindu yeah it's a way of life that doesn't really require a ritual the life is become a bit a hack need you see it's not a way of life it's in a theology there's a theology there is a uh strategy there's so many other things what's an ethology is theology theology theology right right theology strategy so many things are there Hindus have how do you treat

an enemy one of the mistakes we made was to give forgive U many of the Muslim leaders who came here got defeated and then we said okay you can go um so and they are the ones who then came back and finished us and took over not the whole of IND but a good part of India so I would say that within our own country if you look at the Mahabharat story just what is put out in in the media and all that you'll find That they they have tents on either side and in that

vast area and at night time uh they all go and uh go back to their tents sleep for the night can wake up at 3:00 in fact they say Mohammad gor succeeded with India because he realized that every morning at 3:00 a.m. the Indian soldier will get up and have a bath and do his Puja and then come when the Sun rises to fight so he attacked at 3 after losing I think three or four times some people say 17 times 18 times they had they had a code of War which was misused by a

barbarian that's right he took advantage of it so this is this civilization aspect is is something that you know we have to and today women are in so many key positions they've come up where in other countries they have not in the even in the west women don't have the kind of power that Indian women have acquired in this last uh 70 80 years then why is this term used as a pejorative term by the other side that hind they have prorities because you you are you're going to be out kept out if you don't

if you don't adopt it you will be kept out and if you kept out then of course you will be nowhere because this is a growing Matter I mean where Jang was nothing today is now we are all India party in every corner of India and now people are more openly talking about I a Hindu you know so I think the Liberals brought up in the western tradition uh are losing ground and they are very unhappy about it but is there something redeeming about the liberal Indian that you that you like that you like this

is a good redeeming quality on the other side well I'm more liberal than all of them my wife is a Pary right uh my daughter is married someone who has a Muslim name I don't know whether he's a Muslim or not nor did I ask ever uh his mother is mus Hindu and father is he says I'm a notic he was a he was a he was a foreign Secretary of our country mhm um so I've you know all kinds of people in my uh family but nobody ever tells me that you're a fanatic you're

mad fellow you you know you're you're you're ruining the country none of that have you been following what's happening in the UK with the the Islamic grooming I know about that that's no Islam see there was a book written by one of the Harvard professors Huntington is name um who said the The Clash Of The Clash of The Eternity or something like that it's a book with something uh where he says that ultimately what's going to happen that's what he says that the Muslims will be at war with the Christians the Jews and the Hindus

and is there a very big book it's a Harvard University publication you should read it um so it's increasingly becoming like that yeah the only country where the Muslims are in a place or know their place is India you yourself said in a vice interview about four years ago that if the Muslim population increases Beyond 30% it is a problem to which the interviewer just had a strange expression uh no but it is a pretty bold statement because you know do you never do you never wonder about like uh an Indian Muslim born in the

country very much of our ways yes if this Indian Muslim constantly hears these things again and again yes does that not lead to more radicalization than less well how can it the country's partition was based on those Muslims who don't want to live with Hindus but those who wanted to live with Hindus they they stayed back otherwise the partition was India Hindu Muslim And ambedkar was very very clear on that otherwise don't do it he said but slowly because ja wanted a electorate which will be you know prone to him the think the the Muslims

state but the Muslims never had the economic development so they produce more children than those with those who are better off I I don't believe that Muslims deliberately have more children I think that when you are poor you going to have more children it's the same tendency for ghettos across the world yes that's right correct yeah absolutely so the Muslim is is a person if if he wants to be part of India he culturally he should be a Hindu h means you know the you should not have any forced attitude which uh which makes everybody

feel that either you this here or there now you see I one of the beauties of the ram Mand matter which I initiated originally which you you've often mentioned was wrongly uh Mr Modi stole the credit for yeah yeah of course he steal credit is a pathological problem it doesn't matter uh but the whole country knows I mean the Hindus know that I I had only raised this issue that I have a problem in giving up Ram Mand because R according to my faith was born there I Can't go anywhere else and build another R

Temple which is one of the proposals that had come but a mosque is a place to read Nam and namas can be read anywhere including in your drawing room H or even in an airplane correct so if a mosque is shifted no harm is caused to the religion and there's only three places where I know where we have to use that PL place where a mosque was built by demolishing a temple one is Ram Mand second is Krishna janabi and the third is Kashi vishan these three of the Muslims give up I can tell you

every Hindu worth the name Will will stand up for anybody trying to do anything wrong to a Masjid or to a Muslim you're saying if you correct these three past wrongs that's right yeah but then you also invoke many others who will then not stop at just that well that's in a democracy they are not going to succeed okay let me ask you this uh I was since I was gathering some research on you and I used some AI this time yeah I said I'm very intelligent uh so you you give me something about uh

Dr Swami that is not controversial that perhaps highlights some of the things he's done on the academic economic and uh legal front I asked This to my Ai and it mentioned again something maybe semi- controversial it said you've actually lobbied many times to remove the word secular and socialist from Indian Constitution's Preamble yeah why is that because it was not there when we put the um preamble so how can you insert it have a new constitution scrap this one because the Preamble is something that was given to us according to the then leaders of the

country by the people that within this framework you build a constitution so the Preamble doesn't have any reference to secularism and socialism it's not that they it is kept their memory or their their attention edar who was given the charge for for for the build to to bring the consensus about he very clearly says that secularism and socialism has been rejected by the people who asked us to make the constittution how was it inserted then it was inserted by Mrs in the emergency really yes 100% and uh now now people are I mean I we

went to court saying that this is you know not there in the original thing and you cannot now say the preamble preamble is something that was done at that time and it cannot be uh modified because Those people are all gone you can scrap the Constitution and build a new constitution but uh some of the judges even didn't agree they said no no no it'll cause the riot this thing that thing what do you mean it cause the riot I mean we have said all religions lead to God in the Preamble but we have not

said secular secularism socialism is an ideology there's no question how can you put that in we have not said capitalism in the earlier version of The Constitution mhm but these people now want that also to be put in because it was put in by Mrs Gandhi and the Congress people have been rooting for it they foolish people because ultimately it'll go I think what secularism the term does is allow an entire side of politics to Rally against the Hindu right and and Hinduism as a definition which largely works on a majoritarian style of politics right

so it's very because I I've seen many any of my friends on the left are like but bro we are going away from secularism I was like I was like what do you mean by that and they don't have a definition or an answer it just means they say it's it means where everyone lives equally that's there in the Constitution before Secularism came okay please read the pr so you're saying it's it's it's just a political tool right now that's why you want to get it out yeah yeah yes it was forced on us in

the emergency when we none of us could participate in the election I had gone underground others had gone to jail and you know how can we honor it you can't today get it passed in Parliament I know that for a sure mhm at that time almost everybody either in jail or boycotting the parliament in the opposition they got it passed I in my generation there are not too many combative public intellectuals um and your Twitter bio says I give as good as I get yes that's correct can you help me understand what what is that

is that a way of life is that a motto uh yes if anybody is rude to me I'll be rude to him if anybody's being nice to me I'll be nice to him no but my question is is there is there is there space for genuine intellectual combativeness in the country it depends I have no problem being an intellectual combat because I get call invited everywhere mhm uh in speaking engagements people who dis who disagree with me they say we we like your economics but we don't like your politics Like that they try to soften

the blow but the fact is that I think in India we need frankness we need to tell people what we think and you have a right to disagree and still be friends and I have a very large number of friends you see even whether it's congress party or the communist or all of them when they we they meet me there's utter cordiality yeah because they believe that I am I'm I'm genuinely of this View and not doing it for any political purpose and so they discuss and they also know that I know the subject I

can argue with them I can tell them so on was it difficult to change your ways when you first enter politics no because at that time I felt that the socialism was a danger yeah and uh I didn't say anything about secularism I married a Pary I have a son-in-law who says no no I I mean I mean that uh you you come from academic stock let me put it like that yes and there are many like you your in your book uh the great economic the economic reset book about India's economy yes um you

were saying that there are many things you don't like about Modi but what you do like about him is that he you know sort of rose from the masses he had humble Beginnings right and that is a very different kind of a politician I'm not saying that you had humble or Royal Beginnings but you were clearly from an academic stock where it's first Indian Statistical Institute and then Harvard and then I right unlike him who's just you know from from the masses from the very streets so that way was it was it difficult to change

the way you view the World perhaps there's there's Politics on paper and then there's real politic no at that time I felt that Sonia Gandhi LED Congress is dangerous for India h and I know a few things about of about Sonia which troubles me because Rajiv Gandhi and I were very good friends everybody knows that and he wasn't keen on going I was at that time a minister chakar was prime minister he was the minister for Commerce and industries yes and also law uh so um um I had told um Rajiv it was Rajiv who

made us in fact he wanted me to be the the Prime Minister but I told him I don't have MPS and so he said okay in one year you I'll help you collect the MPS he wanted to make you prime minister yeah he was everybody knows that at that time and he in fact why not take the position for himself no he He felt that he should come through an election he had this he was very very sure that MH he can't be uh a party where uh he wanted a absolute majority he didn't want

to be a dest absolutely yeah and this is the first time I'm hearing someone speak about him like that he was a wonderful man I tell you we lost a very good man because he he came without any knowledge of politics but he picked up very fast and you know this Ram Mand business was the first time it was shown on television when Rajiv Gandhi was prime minister no Indian Prime Minister other than Rajiv Gandhi would have dared to do it at that time yeah so you know they would have called secularism secularism he said

no this is mass and he showed it Mahabharat also was shown by him and later on he even allowed the vishu parishad to build the base of a temple he said I will get it through Parliament and then we can do it so that is the I think if there's one person's premature death that I regret very much in politics is Rajiv Gandhi hypothetically if I wrote this down so I'm glad that we're doing this is is he upset at someone is it no he wants to come in so we can let him [Music] Yeah

no stress he he so I I was saying you know see Everyone likes you for economics there is no doubt right you've done substantial work on it yes she he coming all right let him come what's up friendly come on eeve H so everyone knows you for economics if you were made PM now yes you know if you were to do a list of reforms and the canvas is wide open what would you do my first step would be to abolish income tax it's the root cause of all the garine that is there in our

society but there are other countries in the world which are also democracies that also have an income tax so what we are in a different situation altoe which is first of all first of all there's no income tax in agriculture H there's a there's a lot of foregone Revenue in agriculture right for for non poor Farmers no whatever it is there's no income tax all right now in the income tax there are so many deductions and all allowed which only someone who can pay for a person a good CA a smart Good C yes and

then you end up pay nothing there was a time when B used to pay only 18 rupees as tax so um I think we are not equipped to collect income tax and therefore it is unnecessary thing there's corruption that CA caused by it but how would the governments make their money how would they there have plenty of money where is the money shortage tell me one thing no but like uh all right you just say that I will pay 9 % if you put your money in the bank as a as a you will get

more than anything you want there are thousands of ways I've been in government enough both with Nimar and Chandra Shar that the country just lacks Innovative thinking that's all I would love to pay not pay income tax that's for sure I will abolish if I was the Prime Minister as you say yeah or even Finance Minister because no prime minister will come my way M or you know would dare to tell me you can't do this um uh I would first thing I would do is abolish income tax and what would you re reinstate what

would you have place I will collect it it will come by collections sales tax are there so many other taxes are there they all people will happily will give you I'm telling You there will be so much celebration in the country you can't believe will this not reduce our revenues I'm sorry I don't know enough no it doesn't Revenue comes as a product of the growth rate if your growth rate now accelerates to say 8% 10% I think 10% is easy for us uhhuh I've been saying this for a long time I said it in

that book also reset book I think uh you you'll cover the money what else so you would abolish income tax I would abolish income tax that's all I need to do I will just say the the fixed deposit for um middle income groups the rate of uh interest paid to them would be uh 9% not the present 4% or 5% MH and U I would make sure that those who want to build assets whether it's a factory or a house or a school the rate of interest charged by public sector banks will be only 2%

so you would incentivize everyone who wants to be a builder in the country to to build more that's right then what would you do about the poor in our country which are if I were to say Po in the country need only one thing they need employment they don't need handouts they don't need welfare no not at all you're just ruining them by doing That and how will so many with the most populist country in the world how will all of these poor get employed isn't that a monstrous challenge if a person thinks that I

build a factory and I'll make a profit and I won't have to pay this man and pay that man you will see employment growing up you know we are the cheapest look listen Indians are going everywhere in the world and getting employed MH why because they are the finest workers here they the fellows afraid to employ he says oh there'll be a trade Union I will be fixed you know every every night they will wake me up and harass me all that you know the of course is much less than thanks to narar but otherwise

during the earlier socialist period it was horrible so you would uh allow Builders to build you would give the poor uh employment yes uh you would abolish income tax yes what else they lower the interest rates for borrowings okay to 2% okay uh and uh fixed deposit to 9 % okay it's going to be a fun time if that happens yeah it will be why that's why people are afraid that once I get in I may not get Out as far as like the social life of Indians are concerned what what changes would you make

I would certainly like to see men and women as equal m uh I would like to see them get equal education and I'll be very rough with those who engage in physical uh crimes against women by probably having and this you're not going to broadcast but I'm going to tell you mhm by amputating their penis I can broadcast this all right yeah say that any man who rapes a woman and is proved by the Supreme Court has having done so he should have his penis amputated do not I think this is a very Arabic style

of doing it like is it Arabic I don't think so no the Arab world does it a lot no when they when they they do all kinds of thing what they do to their women I don't even speak about it sure sure it is not to to promote the safety of women yeah it is something else to create Terror create Terror I said just don't don't do horrible things to women that's all how would you change our foreign policy see foreign policy let me tell you is there there's no question of a policy we have

to ensure that our land is totally protected at this stage either the Chinese should vacate or We should go to war if we can't go to war today we should go to war 5 years from now and uh we should befriend the democracies more than we def you know do with dictatorships we can be can have a good relationship with dictatorships but the real real friendship should be with uh with the democracies for example today Ukraine is fighting Russia Ukraine is a democracy it's a functioning democracy H and this Putin he a mad fellow he

does horrible things I mean all the denters have been now given poison and killed so how can you have a be friend with a a government which is based on this kind of barbarity so go for the the the the democracies build with them they help a lot of them Japan right from [ __ ] Japan Korea Australia all the way you have people Sri Lanka we have so many democ icies in the world bring them all together and interact with them do business with them so you're saying what we're doing right now by befriending

Russia and also we're playing a tight rope no we are not playing at all you're blackmailed that's why you're doing this and I know what the blackmail is and I'm not going to tell you on the on camera wait wait you're saying India is blackmailed India is blackmailed is blackmailed okay he can't stand up to the Russians or the Chinese yeah I have met Modi allowed anyone to publish even the parliament is not allowed when I was in Parliament I raised this question I going to court I rais this question I am not being told

how much land the Chinese have occupied which is Undisputed so far H it was Undisputed land in ladak theyve occupied a large amounts they have built their hls for their soldiers there have you said a word has it come in the newspaper can you show it you won't be allowed to go there and I know many many friends who who are not cowards but they are they are not psychop fans of Modi in the government who tell me you're absolutely right but we can't do what you can do there are people um who work in

Military Intelligence otherwise um who and I've also read many papers uh which talk about a kind of a narrative war that that China and Russia wage against us more China than Russia I think where they you know perhaps would use our populace and infect their minds with the ideas of Communism Social ISM where they you know instill pro-china attitudes in very subtle ways where they you know like in many countries one example I often give is my American friend and I were once sitting in our Boston um house and he was doing some research for

an American firm that investigated in you know us China relationships and I think he went a little too deep he wrote a 20 page paper and then suddenly his laptop screen just went black the message in Chinese came and then it the laptop was zaed forever no one could recover it so that was the that was the extent of of of perhaps the uh the wishes with which the Chinese attack no e jump has he seen something no she's trying to attract attention oh sh okay um down oh it's a she I'm so sorry so

sorry I misgendered her no no um yes what do you think China has on our country what what is its strengths compared to ours well first of all uh they as far as the Northeast and ladak is concerned territorially they've expanded they just with come with their army right and you have got the guts to challenge them uh then um in say in good parts of Gujarat they are running factories for plutocrats what are plutocrats Plutocrats means um um modi's great friend who's now in trouble in America okay uh so they are financing them uh

they finance a lot of our intellectuals to travel to uh China in the present circumstance there was time when the Chinese were flowering MH Tanga Ping's time when they even agreed to my demand that Kash mans should be opened and opened I was the first one to go and so now it's a totalitarian state and uh they are looking for quizzl Lings and they are finding them and we are you know the Americans know that the Indians don't have the appetite to fight the Chinese otherwise the Americans would come and support you so they dealing

directly with China and the Russians are total stoes of the Chinese take that in my as my word but you'll realize it sooner or later it's the other way around that a country far smaller in size sandwich between two major Powers actually has Russia as it stoe yeah the the Chinese have Russia as St but but like H how is that possible when it comes to the the you know the the physical pretty sure this small they were they got the whole but what do the Chinese have H the Chinese the Chinese have A large

number of things they are the the amount they buy from Russia no other country buys the Russians came out of a major after all this is not the old Soviet Union it's a breakup and which he is Putin is always on a on a thin ice because you know he is not come by any legitimacy of a great popular leader he was a KGB man correct yeah took Sonia Gandhi to St Petersburg as a fellow KGB she was also working for KGB so uh he has got him and Putin finds it very very uh very

nice for him the Americans can't do anything to him because the Chinese might intervene for his favor is there someone in the world a world leader who is truly at the top who's truly free no the United States is B and the freest but we can be anytime we have the potential so everyone keeps talking about this India potential story this India Century this India decade yeah but there no nothing if you stop buying anything from China and tell the Western World I will do this but you will have to compensate by selling it at

a decent price to us and uh the world will respond and yet we're sitting at this and you know since you're a train Economist maybe help Me understand this yes A dollar is 86.5 rupees today be 8 rupees only it should be 8 rupees only yeah when I went to America for the first time in 2012 it was 45 rupees uh when I went for the second time yeah I agree with you see the the the real problem is if I were to take the demand and Supply route to deciding what the price should be

of Indian rupee how much is demanded and how much is supplied then you will get not more than 8 rupes per dollar what these people are doing is they ad hoc selecting this what does that mean that means the Reserve Bank says that hence forth from tomorrow it will be this this is not a market decision but if I look it up it just it says that that that's what the rate is no that is what the rate is what we have told them we have not said okay we I'm opening the market how do

currency exchanges work like how do currency no you see there are there are currency exchanges like the Americans which is always available in the market H correct and they have a back back support if it is starts following they will come and put some money and uh like that but there is something called a fixed uh fixed rate thing which the Government decides that it'll be this tell me when the government makes it 86 on what basis they do go and ask the Reserve Bank on what arithmetic basis you did or mathematical base you did

or can I take Mr Swami with me and bring him there and you explain to him on what basis you decide this number numbers all are making money on this but is this number not collectively decided by the market forces of the world no no no no this is decided in The Reserve Bank you're saying it's human intervention huh you're saying it's it's decided by human beings where people sit office sitting yeah they sit there and they'll make out a case and prime minister won't understand a word jetly was there he understood even less and

you know they did it and it's been steadily going up if your economy is improving so much as you claim yeah then why is there exchange rate going against you makes no sense exchange rate will go against you if the amount of of dollars that people want is not sustainable on the rupees that you give them so what if the economy is actually doing well but the you like the economy is not doing well at all it's in a miserable state right now And is heading for a major crash then perhaps everyone like me is

subject to masterful public relations where we are painted narrative that it's it's such a great time to be in Indian yeah yeah yeah of course I'm not sure that Modi is going to last very long no but what are some signs of a bad economy first of all the worst sign that you can have is when there is no relationship between demand and Supply okay okay there's a demand for employment uhhm but there's not enough Supply why because the employers say that you got so much regulations that we have to go through that we cannot

employ as much as you want yes we would like to that but we won't be able to manage it with these restrictions you know uh so so therefore um I would say you start by saying on a daily wage basis anybody can join and uh we'll give them on a daily basis it's like freelance G gig work like contractual work yeah okay I mean there are very ways to do it it's not a problem I am I am broadly indicated uh in a large in a a not in a specific way but in my book

uh reset I've done it after all the economic reforms that came with Nimar supplied by me and the man Who worked under me as my secretary when I was a minister in chandra's government was mon sing alalia and who later became Finance secretary and my economic advisor whom I chased around Europe located him brought him here was sing everybody knows that and the three of us sat down and he said we do this do this things started changing and then narim was so impressed he wanted me to join but he put a condition that you

have to join Congress I said that I will not do otherwise there many times the Congress has asked me to join I said no I won't come do you think country's economies can entirely be revived by Economist I remember I no not by Economist he must be a politician he must have that uh he must have that touch with the public that they have faith that this man means business and he has got a background I got a background if tomorrow I become Finance Minister and I say okay I'm abolishing income tax they'll be Jubilation

nobody say yeah there's going to be a party on the streets exactly and then I'll tell them but don't waste your money put it in fixed deposit okay for 2 years because I got to survive all this and otherwise I'll have to Reintroduce the taxes how do you think someone like a jaier mil has faed in Argentina who I don't anything I never look Beyond India okay you never look Beyond India because many people call him uh Trump of the South yeah it's okay you know the India is a very different country when it comes

to Faith are you a religious man very religious in the sense that I believe in God uh-huh and um I expect God to intervene in many times sometimes he intervenes sometimes he doesn't sometimes you have to use the code of law yeah wi winning in the code of law is also God yeah but but tell me does it does it not uh make you enemies that you do so many defamation cases I I was just reading up on you but now I've stopped because nobody's defaming me anymore to serious you give me a name I

will be happy to file yeah I actually wrote this down for the end but perh I I'll just say it now um because you've been around for so long and you've met so many people if you were to give one word for someone I just have 10 names maybe if you you want we can add more uh Manan Singh a wonderful man but no Backbone nsh Kumar Kumar is a smart politician but someone who's not good for um planning economics economy okay yeah Arun jley he's gone why should I say anything about him okay Narendra

Modi Narendra Modi deserves to be sent to an asylum why is that because what is he doing I mean I don't understand exactly what he's doing why does he go go around this world all the time time he goes to every small country in the world what for prime minister is not supposed to go why is he doing this about China I mean say to the public I can't fight the Chinese so they have come give me two years I will put it all together and drive them out what a liar how can you be

such a liar and it's a lie that has been confirmed now by the government Itself by having new agreements of uh of the Border being re redrawn but his approval ratings across the world are so high they I don't know which year you're talking about it's not my impression it's going tin this time he from five CR five lakhs for the first two times he won 1 lakhs only one lakh okay and party lost his majority then you had to beg these two um Naidu and Kumar Uh these guys to help you they are going

to leave tomorrow we are again back down in the dumps since since you are such an ideological darling of the RSS and the BJP let me ask you this I'm not I don't know the RSS never told me there I'm their Darling by the way they think well of me well if you thought well off then what do you think is the is the future many people ask this it's a speculative question uh what do you think is the future where um Modi goes out of power he has to at some point uh who comes

in next that there's no such rule there's no way anybody is given an advanc indication we are building you there's no way they will see the circumstances and then decide many people think there is a I want to entertain this but let me still ask you this there is a secret society there is like an Illuminati like a darker Tri of people who control the world who are above governments is that true is there a shadow I think they are no more secret than a five star company you see the board of board of directors

will meet and nobody will know what they have decided uh so I I don't think it's fair to say that as in Nowadays it's even more difficult because so much tapping is going on um I would say that they originally you see one has to understand and the circumstances in 19 uh so after our independence RSS was banned blaming them for Mahatma Gandhi's murder they had nothing to do with it I'm willing to debate this anytime with anybody you want call him sure happy to I'll tear him apart I'll tear him apart I mean he

may go crying and cursing you but the fact is there's nobody who can sustain this thing but it's being banged Bang bang they killed Mahatma Gandhi killed mandhi now yes they say that this fellow chap who shot himam go natam go he was in the RSS well so many people were in the RSS there's no such thing as a permanent membership of RSS perhaps yes if you're an office parent sure but for a member you come and you go there were many people in Congress s there was a a minister called sat from Maharashtra he

was a Paka RSS man there was one Muslim from karnatak who was running their Railways he he said I also attended RSS Shaka good for my muscles and all that so uh RSS is a body which once we left to themselves they originally Were created the Jang because nobody was speaking up for them in Parliament that is all that we expecting from the political party now over the years there the demands became no no election also we need you please go and participate in the booth level this and so so that is the thing which

has promoted them but strictly speaking they don't want power I am after knowing them for a long time and not being a member of RSS but very friendly mhm with them uh and they like my ideology and the way I presented and all that but they don't want Power they want to create a whole lot of new people who in the long run would would uh would you know bring about changes in educational system this system that system but they have to survive because everybody wants to hit them Mrs Gandhi banned them twice or Thrice

you know even Nimar was forced to ban them once so there's always this pressure because they they become a very big block and today it's very difficult to defeat BJP as long as RSS is with them the RSS goes away and says no we are sitting at home that's the end yeah and they it did happen in the up elections that is why they They mended their with the RSS that's right uh we still want to talk about one word for everyone or one sentence for everyone raguram Rajan scatter brain unfit to be put as

a Reserve Bank chairman I mean what is this I don't want to go deeper into other things yeah uh because it's said not relevant I'll tell you after this sure I will assign 15 minutes extra to just no no no just between you and me of course can't be put out no no not at all not at all of course um but he was totally against I was totally against him gotani adani is a mro he's making a fool of everybody and he come crashing down one day and he's already on the way to getting

crash what about MH Amani who mes Amani Mukesh is a much more scientific person he would have probably got a degree from uh Stanford University had he his father not died at at an awkward time so he had to leave that and come he's a very uh I call I I consider him as a man very articulate person very smart and I've known him as a little boy because I knew his father very well and uh what was he like he was friend of a friend enemy of an enemy if you against him I he

couldn't bear the the idea that I was his friend as was also of Nadia he said know you choose between two I said I'm not you know in a marriage situation have one yeah so he got very angry with me but uh the this man is much more very sophisticated uh J J and I were friends enemies friends enemies poor woman she went through hell yeah yeah she was a very beautiful Brahman girl forced by a mother in due to poverty into Cinema the DMK was in charge and DMK they are real debauches in the

first order they I mean they just she she she was many many years she was my good very good friend then she would fight with me and then I'll say go to hell and then she'll again call me up okay you know let's forget the past so I have known her better than anybody else and she has been she's a very bright she was a very bright person very intelligent hated giving up studies for the cinema didn't you file a case against her of course but as your friend why can I I can't do it

if she's she's she get she if she goes out of her way I will have to do it wait you you mean you feel compelled to file cases against your friends because she has violated the law so you're a staunch Advocate and and supporter And follower of the law yeah absolutely no no and furthermore she she would file a is put up Suddenly she will put out a arrest warrant against me so I said all right then I'll teach you a lesson Rahul Gandhi Rahul Gandhi I know nothing about him except that he seems to

be like a dumb guy he's not even an Indian he's a British citizen Arin krial I don't know nothing to do with him when he was with that up not up thear India against corruption I found him very obnoxious so I I don't what have anything do with him did you ever know kosan Singh very well see he he is someone who really inspired me to travel the Baines of ludian Delhi because he wrote so lovingly about it but uh many people seem to hate him yeah because it sort of a Frank person and he

has written good things about me so therefore to say make an exception yeah but I know bit yeah a man uh who had lots and lots of money and didn't need to do all this paperwork you see but but his books are fantastic I know that for for someone who can I know V vty I would say he was a man before his times I I you know I was forbidden to read kosan Singh that is precisely why I Read him uh my father so many books of kushan Singh in our house and he was

like don't read this and my first taste of erotica my first of what perhaps in simple English uh India's psyche was even though it was from the lens of a man who drank his scotch and lived in luten zelli it was such a good account um what Indian politicians do you truly admire contemporary or those in the past perhaps I couldn't say that I admire them for everything but they are enough for me to want to be friends with them mhm I would say nanaji deshmuk was a one wonderful man okay many people didn't like

him bajai hated him MH but I don't know whether you heard of him he I don't I don't know the gentlemen he created the mazd S okay very self phasing too uh then there was a RSS Chief during the emergency or mother of mle another very wonderful man uh then um of course the present one I'm more closer he's he's younger than me so I have a good relationship with them but not the same way I had with these people who are older than me right um now um uh then I come down to human

beings I find the only nasty characters was vajpai and this man Moody but what like I know for A fact waj pai's reals on in stagram of him doing sh and poetry are so famous and many people in the BJP also frame him in a very nice poetic light where he was the Paragon of Indian po where he could not Paragon like he could really really uh be very sensitive and give rousing speeches and be very you know friends across the aisle that kind of a way why why do you hate him so much I

wouldn't call it hate I would say dislike him much more I mean I didn't want to do anything against him and I knew him in the early stages uh he was very nice to me but uh soon I find started finding out some things which I can tell you about which made me put distance and he hated Nan deshmuk and he one day made it easy for me saying either with him or me you can't go do politics with both of us together so I said I prefer n and left the house he was a

man who I had a girlfriend when he was a young Chap and his father that is V's father said she's a Kashmir woman I will not let you you know marry her and you can't go around with her so he moved him out to kpur to become a RSS prar then from there he came to Delhi and became an MP of Jang in the meantime this lady having been known Having moved with Raj pip for so many years and nobody wanted to marry her so the parents married her off to a very old man who

later became uh uh the ramjas college some Junior position that's where vajpai met this lady again this time as a member of parliament MH and um old love is old love so he persuaded her to come and live with him while his servant will be while his her husband would live in the servant quarter of the house given to vajpai as an MP which is in fosha Road and this I found disgusting um and his wife was a very nice woman I mean not wife his mistress was a very nice woman mhm I knew her

and U uh I spoken to her she explained her difficulties um and so on and you know personal compassions can be there but this is vajpai that I was really against and that led to war fight and so on then I became a hero in the emergency and this man was writing apology letters to indraa Gandhi in the emergency and so that's where the break came when you it's been a while but did did politics not corrupt your soul because I often I know it's a young man's question politics but I generally think that some

people are pure evil and I must I'm sure you must have I made a lot of them I made a lot of them and I will say very clearly today that Modi is perhaps one of the most evil man I've ever met and I didn't know him before that well I knew him man who came to pick up my luggage from the airport or you know arrange my speeches in vti parishad and beg me for getting him to get the good books of Obama uh when he was a chief minister you see so now he's

a different man now I know really what he is he's Jaelin Hy have you ever been censored by the current government I would know because there's nothing to censor it's all open I say what I like I you know there's nothing that I hide I have no weaknesses that they can trace me on what what what do you think I just have a few more questions um what do you think is is in your opinion your greatest achievement well I mean there are so many things that I have damn pleased with what I did in

economics particularly in the index number Theory MH which is you know joint paper with Paul samelson the greatest Economist of the 19 20th century and U I was also student of the founder of the national income or GDP Simon KET another great Economist I was real darling office I was did my PhD PhD thes is under him so that period you know where was a star Young Star you know everywhere people talking about how India is now changing people like Swami are coming and all that so Harvard has accept the fact that they they had

a uh Indian studies Group which was hostile to me because they were left wing uh but uh the department of Economics was was a real joy for me I came most reluctantly and I said I must come back to India I came back and then of course Mrs Gandhi didn't let me you know stay in IIT they sacked me after 21 years I won the case and I got my seat back I went and joined it for one day and got all my back salary at 8% interest yeah um you know you you also have

often talked about black money and corruption in politics yeah it's been a predominant issue it certainly was an issue with which uh Mr Modi came to power uh because they they not sincere so sorry he was not sincere but he came to power with promising to do sure because you know when even I was growing up I would see a raja's photo on my Times of India People every single day that is my my my what I I did in the the courts of India I would just say this I mean he looked like a

very simple man and he was always on the top left of my school newspaper you would have to read him every single morning I would say a Raja 2G scam a Raja Spectrum Spectrum a Raja like you I think it ran for so long that my the most prominent figures I remember seeing in newspapers when I was growing up sures kalmari and aaja I remember their phases and names so distinctly and then a few days ago I think I was watching loab rajas SAA TV and I saw aaja sitting there I was like you have

been through a lot my friend uh to end up there but uh you know I I think I I I'm led to believe you're a straight shooter but many many politics are politicians are not um in your opinion how how rampant is this corruption in the political classes how how bad is it well the I would call something a corruption if you take money in reply to their asking you to do something correct I can say I've been six times to Parliament uh twice I lost so for the eight times I got money by just

putting my hands out H people gave it there are People who are willing to give it provided they know that you're not using the money for your girlfriends or going abroad or something like that and so um my view is that uh India must encourage people to collect money openly give a record of it and live lead a simple life but it becomes very difficult when you come straight out of the the J party or the slum and then suddenly you are you know Minister and you're going in the beautiful car and all that and

you you don't want to give up that position and there then people start coming and buying you that we'll do this for you we will arrange your future this that people get corrupt I want people who who knowing that they can be smashed by a road roller should come to politics I mean after all making our country a great country is something much more than getting a Nobel priz H how can we in like I know for a fact that uh if I have a team and I give them Financial incentives they work harder how

do we incentivize young people to join politics and this is one of those things that you know one random co-opted kid is going to ask this question to every politician That visites his college Hey sir how can we join politics but it's a very nothing really happens it should be in in the in the teaching and schools and so on doing politics is as a compulsory language which we have for up to up to the class 10 at least I tell them this is how Mahatma Gandhi went to London and he got a degree and

came back and gave up everything this is how um ambedkar was you know these these have to be in inculcated not javal Neu or Rajiv Rahul Gandhi coming in t-shirt what is this you know even t-shirt what's what's wrong with this t-shirt no no it's not a it's not an Indian dress you're going to Indian Parliament at least at least for Parliament you go in C and pajama you see some people wearing tie I mean this viter he's all the time in a tie that's why I call him [Laughter] viter Dr Swami uh thank you

for spending this late afternoon with me and answering all my questions uh it was a sincere pleasure to talk to you and uh I I I think that uh you you needlessly suffer from a reputation problem where people think that you out to get someone reputation at all yeah I just don't care so don't make that as a issue I'm not Going to improve on that no no I'm I'm saying when when I speak to your critics when I read about you it it is so bad they understandable because they don't want me to come

up I will be undoing of there thing and then there are people who for instance Mr Modi has financed so many people so therefore I would not worry about that it's you don't feel sorry for that either I'm okay okay I completely completely dismissed that statement I only said it because when I was telling my friends and other people that I was coming to uh you know have a podcast with they like oh my God how will you handle him he's so controversial and so like I just was controversial is yeah cheap language used by

everybody not knowing the meaning of that yeah what what do it mean just just mean someone that is no no it's something that you are not you are not going with the with everybody you saying something Contra ah it's contrarian it's like a it's like a it's Contra okay say no no the Chinese can be defeated uh controversial I see well I did not know the the atmology of that word but I want to thank you for your time it's it's been very pleasant to Speak with you and thank you for answering all my questions

and uh of course people already know you you've got like uh cores and millions of followers on Twitter but in case you wanted to get more doses of his uh py insights on the world you can follow him on Twitter and other platforms and yeah it was a sincere pleasure to speak with you okay thank you very much thank you