How spiritual is money? || Apostle T. Mwangi

There's a level of power that if you demand you'll be told to sacrifice a human being, the blood of a human. Because what happens in the realm of the spirit, blood carries speech. Let me tell you, people always talk about wealth is spiritual, money is spiritual. But is it? Are you saying that there's a certain level of money that you can't attain or that you can't reach? Yes. You can't be an atheist. Let me say that. You must have a certain path of spirituality. In our quest to understand the concept of how money works we

had to talk to someone who I believe we have done justice talking to as far as this subject is concerned. That's why you might find someone is broke the devil has been attacking and God teaches you tithing differently based on your maturity level. Our guest for this episode is a man who needs no introduction. Apostle T Mwangi is a lead youth mentor in this country. And when you listen to him you know it's about to get deep. When Benny Hinn came here people claimed that accidents have started happening. Those are sacrifices. I would like you

to respond to that but I don't want you to start with that because we'll veer off. Let's just answer it in one sentence. And now that we're talking about this you all know that Apostle T Mwangi is one man of God you can trust with research. A good example, 2 Kings Chapter 3. The Moabites were fighting against Israel. Things were heating up and Moab started losing. Then the king of Moab looked for a solution. He took his child and offered him at the walls of the Moabites as a human sacrifice. The Israelites were filled with

fear and they retreated even though the prophet had already told them they were going to win. This also comes from a very personal point because I asked about tithing and he told me that "I even stopped tithing and I'll tell you why." And why should I learn by myself? Giving does not guarantee you heaven. Giving is a principle of your welfare. I trust that by the end of this episode we'll have answered as many questions as possible that you may ever have had in your head about money and the church and most importantly does money

have a spiritual connection? In a day a man sacrificed animals worth 3 billion Kenyan shillings in a day burnt going on flames. There is something that man knew. I'm your host Dr King'ori and here's another reason to stay subscribed to our channel. If you haven't subscribed this is now a very good reason to hit Subscribe and turn on the notifications bell. This conversation has been borne from struggles with giving in church. We have, let me call it a tribe of people who believe nowadays you would rather give to the poor than give to church because

you may give to church and still get thrown into the fire. What's the difference between giving in church and giving to the poor? Giving to the poor is called alms. And in fact giving to the poor is still a Biblical giving. It's only that every giving attracts a certain blessing and is also instructed with certain conditions and demands. The foundation of every giving is love. Whether you give to the poor, whether you give to church, without love the giving is all useless. That is what Paul spoke about that even God looks for a cheerful heart.

So the moment we take love out of the equation all the other things are left as rituals. So when we begin to know who God is and what God has done for us then we'll never struggle to give because of his assignment. The second thing is that we have everything in heaven except money. There's no money in heaven. The mystery is even Jesus' ministry was supported by men. Jesus being God had people that supported him. In the Book of Luke he talks of a woman called Mary Magdalene, there was Claudia and there was Susanna. These

are women who supported with their substance. When Jesus needed money he told Peter to go and fish: a symbolic picture that any time the Kingdom is in need we need to get fish. So every fish comes with coin and coin is not good for the fish. Yes. It's a pattern of the Kingdom. And when you say that every giving comes with a different blessing doesn't that make giving transactional? It's not transactional. It's revelational. It's revelational. It's the same way today when people are paying taxes every tax has what it caters for. You know, there are

deductions that happen when our salary comes. You've heard of NSSF, there's this other one then there's pay as you earn. You know, every deduction is pegged on a certain demand and every deduction serves a certain Purpose. So the first thing is to get the background of every giving. and you understand that when God is talking about the welfare of his children, the Kingdom is a Kingdom meaning that a Kingdom has a way of operation. so when I identify with that Kingdom now he has created a system whereby blessings come through certain channels and so every

giving attracts a certain blessing. So can I study the blessings and give towards the blessing I want? Let's say I just want a house and then I just give towards a house so when I get a house I can go to church for free. Now this is the mystery and I'll tell you why there are people who give and are blessed and there are people who don't give and are still blessed or are still rich. because once we get that background it will help us understand many things. A blessing when we talk of blessing, a

blessing is a status of wellness. It's a status of wellness. So when I say I'm blessed it is a status of wellness. And anyone who is blessed has the potential of being rich. Rich is a status of accumulation. And it is there. The Bible says Abraham blessed Jacob. And when Jacob was blessed he left the house... I mean Isaac. He left the house of his father with a staff because he was running away from Esau but the man was blessed. Later in that chapter it says "And Laban discovered that he's prospering because a man that

is Blessed is in his midst." So blessing is like a spiritual energy that causes traction and attraction of material things. that's why a man can be blessed but he has not yet manifested in terms of what he's attracting. Then riches is accumulation of things. So you can be rich through blessing but you can also be rich through principles, disciplines and laws. That's why there are people who don't know God and they have an accumulation. There are people who've never gone to church who have big houses and cars. But if you sit down with them they

have principles, they have laws, they have disciplines that they apply and they are able to accumulate. Because even for someone who's blessed if they manifest into riches whatever grows the Riches is management, not prayer. And you can give and be blessed but there are people who don't give and they're blessed. Yes. Are there people who are just cursed no matter what you give you're still going to hell? No, no, no. I don't think so. And in fact let me tell you. Giving does not guarantee you heaven. Giving is a principle of your welfare. There are

people who don't tithe, they don't give any offering and they will make it to heaven. Going to heaven is not pegged by our giving. But now when you begin to understand the economy of love any time you love somebody you don't shy away from spending. This is the mystery. When you love someone and you honor that person it is amazing that there are people who feel privileged to give gifts to the president yet he can afford. There was a time I was watching the president in a car and you see someone straining really hard to

give him a picture because they want to show him that they honour him, they respect him. You know, you're sovereign, you're powerful and I honor you. So that's why bibilical giving is 100% out of revelation. And maybe we can even start talking about tithe. The first tither God didn't demand. God didn't demand the first tithe. This is what happened. It is in the Book of Genesis and this is the Genesis of tithing. If you look at the nations of what they used to call the Near Far East Nation, the Mesopotamia culture, that is back in

the days. Small nations used to give a tenth of their harvest to big nations for protection and security. So a good example, Kenya could decide to tithe to the US. So when we collect we give the US 10%. Then any time there is an attack over Kenya it's not the work of Kenya to fight. America will defend us and protect us because we have acknowledged the authority of America over our lives. That was the culture of the day. Now Abraham is coming from war and he went to this war to rescue one cousin called Lot.

So he went to rescue Lot and he defeated all the kings. It was a battle of around nine kings. So that means in Abraham's territory there was no king who he could tithe because he had beaten them all. So there's no king who could give Abraham protection. But in that journey he meets the king of Salem. And then the king of Salem gave him wine and bread. And after receiving wine and bread he gave him a tenth. The king of Salem never requested for the tenth but the king of Salem gave him wine and bread.

And that King is an everlasting king. Of course that's Jesus. So the idea is that he understood the culture of tithing. So Abraham met a king higher than the kings of Israel. And bread represents the word of God. Wine represents the Holy Spirit. So where you receive bread and wine you are nourished spiritually. That's where you take your tithe. So it was out of number one revelation not obligation. He realized this is a sovereign king, this is a majestic king, this is a great king, this is a king that has given me victory so let

me offer a tenth as a sign of worship. But the revelation was from today my protection will come from this king. That's why later in Malachi he comes and says, "Test me with these things and see if I won't open the windows of heaven and if I won't protect your harvest from the devil." Because the pattern was you tithe to a bigger king and that superior sovereign king any time you're attacked will come. So the work of rebuking the devil was the work of the superior king. So when you take your tithe to a children's

home it means that you've bypassed the system of divine protection. And two things happen. The Bible says "I will open the windows of heaven." The first time the windows of heaven were opened was during the floods. Because if you read Genesis 6 the Bible says God opened the vaults and He opened the windows of heaven. The second time we hear about the windows of heaven is when there was drought and famine in Samaria in 2 Kings Chapter 6 and 7 to a point that people were eating the dropping of chicken and heads of donkeys. It

was so severe that mothers were eating their children. And Elijah said "Tomorrow the economy will shift." One handler said "Even if the windows of heaven are opened it cannot shift." So what do the windows of heaven represent? They represent supernatural supply. So tithing is a bibilical principle. You apply it, you get the blessings and the benefits. You refuse to apply it, you'll still go to heaven but your welfare in the economy of Christiandom will be affected. You can tithe and still go to heaven? Yes. Does your not tithing change your experience in heaven? Like do

you think heaven there's a place for people who used to eat their tithe? At the end of the day the goal is to go to heaven. I'm in heaven now but I didn't give tithe. It will only affect what I call your welfare on Earth. That's why you find that someone is broke, they're being attacked by the devil. Some time back I was laughing with my friends because I remembered... And God teaches you tithing differently based on your maturity level. Because if giving is handled by a child it becomes deadly. You see how you buy

a child biscuits and you pay with 1000 shillings, get your change of 900 and put it in your pocket. And then when you ask for it they take it and hide it and say, "No, I'm not giving you. It's mine." That's how sometimes we behave before God. But if you buy a grownup something and then ask them for a taste they'll share it with you. Because giving also demands maturity spiritually. Paul even wrote to the Corinths and told them, "I don't want to a burden to you" because the church of Corinthians was a baby child.

They hadn't matured in Godly matters. So if you start meeting them with giving you'll offend them. So what has happened today is we have baby christians but the first curriculum is giving. So the first thing they feel is "These are my things. Why do you want my things?" But when people mature in God... Because there was church called the Church of Macedonia. Paul appreciated and said they give out of their lack. That means those are not people who have more, but they've understood the intensity and the need for the things of God that they've started

giving out of their lack. Paul wrote to the Church of Philippi and told them "My God shall supply all your needs according to His riches and Glory because the things you gave Epaphroditus..." That was a small church but they understood the need of Paul's missionary assignment and missionary journey. They were mature. But to the church in Corinth he told them, "I had to rob other churches to reach you." And if you check, Corinth was the one with crises and scandals. There was even a case of one person who was committing incest. He was sleeping with

one of his relatives and Paul heard about that story. God said that? What? That he had to rob other churches? Yes. God? Paul wrote it himself and said, "I've had to rob." He meant that it's not that he went and literally robbed them. But what he's trying to say is "People gave offerings to support my mission. So it's like I've robbed them by taking what they have so that I can come here to you because I don't want to be a burden to you. I want to sort out my own accommodation and food. I'm just

here to preach to you. In fact if you're hungry I can even give you food." But what happens is that at that level there's some transaction and some blessing that you miss out on. Have you ever heard people asking why America has prospered and yet we pray hard and sometimes we don't prosper? America was so significant in financing missionaries up to date. The law of America states that when you give your money to charity and you give your money to spiritual places like churches for activities you're exempted from tax. So it means that for the

good work that America did long ago they're still reaping the benefits now? This is a principle. Even a drunkard who helps someone in need, whether they know God or not, it's a principle. So you could actually have a good life based on the offering you gave in Sunday school? It's a principle okay. That's why you'll find majority... Let me even mention it. If you study... And this is not to bring any religious war. If you study the Quran, you know Islam began 500 years after Christianity and there's a lot of similarity of the Quran especially

the Old Testament, the Levitical order. That's where you find sacrifices and offerings. If you study what Islam practices is 100% or let me say 80%-90% what people might consider Judaism. And Judaism is 100% some of the principles and laws that are in the Old Testament. Now majority of the millionaires globally are Jews. Majority of the millionaires. The current economic revolution of wealth is in the Middle East. You have a city like Dubai. In less than 20 years they've developed a city out of a desert. Look at Qatar. Look at Saudi Arabia. There is what they're

calling the Arab Revolution. But you go to them they're doing business guided by the Quran. When you study the Quran and study some of the Old Testament requests and demands they're there. These people are literally using what believers read and don't practice. So we are intellectual. We call them Bible intellects but no results. But there are Bible practitioners who have results. Bible practitioners who have results. Yes. This is someone who has studied and made a decision. I have relatives who are Muslims and I'm telling you the truth, their business is controlled by the Quran. When

a Muslim loans you 100 and you make profit and you make interest he won't take interest. You'll pay him back 100. They don't believe in making money with their own especially if you are a Muslim, a brother. And it's in the Levitical law that you don't take advantage of a brother. If you're in need and I give you 100,000, if you make any profit then that's yours. Even to a level where the interest you get from money you've put in the bank, a Somali would take it to a children's home. I'll have to bring this

up with someone who understands profit, someone who works in that field. Because why would I give someone 100 shillings and you return 100 shillings? Where is the business in that? Because for them their business is they are first controlled by the scripture, not laws Of economics. They first identify as members of that Kingdom. So many believers have not identified as members of this Kingdom. They are very liberal and they are very radical, they are very opinionistic that they want to help the Bible explain some stuff. The moment you pick the Bible and you know this

is the Word of God and apply it no matter your reasoning and all these things, results are automatic. You've mentioned giving and maturity in the same sentence. Yes. We're having this conversation so that we can learn with our audience. Personally I asked you a question. I needed to understand tithing. I wanted to give tithe but you told me that before I give tithe I'll have to understand what it means. I asked you what it means and you told me that's a story for another day. It needs time, right? Yes. Was that a polite way to

tell me that I'm still spiritually imature? No, no, no. I've always been very sensitive to help people not to be caught up in rituals but to be caught up in revelations. Because you might be aware that you're supposed to tithe and you're faithful but you dont know what tithing is. So even the blessings of tithing you're not aware of them. So you're faithful and you're doing the "ritual" because if there's no revelation it becomes a ritual. but the moment you do it out of revelation whether the pastor notices or not, you can even send it

through M-Pesa because you know you've done your part. Because out of revelation I'm tithing to God. It's just that God doesn't come and say, "Hey, where's the tithe?" God has usually planted someone to receive tithe on his behalf. In Hebrews it says, "Here men receive tithes but there He receives." So when I stretch out my hand to receive your tithe, Heaven has stretched. Now the challenge is why were people tithing? Remember God has made a Kingdom. This is a whole government. And God has put it in a way that government is supposed to be self

sustaining. Tithe was given for three reasons. One so that there was food in the storehouse. And that food is what the Levites were eating. That was what the Levites ate. When they were distributing the land of Canaan the Levites were not given an inheritance so the Lord said, "I will bless the 11 tribes. And once I bless you a tenth should go to my house so that in that house there will be food. And the first partakers of that meal are the Levites because they don't have an inheritance." And He told them, "Don't forget the

Levites in your midst." The second thing and that was the understanding of Israel, it is the Lord who gave them the Rains. There was the latter rain and the former rain. It is the Lord who gave them the ground Canaan. It is the Lord who gave them the seed. so 100% the Lord provided. And he was just demanding that "You take a tenth and take to my house." It's as if right now you give your child 1,000 shillings and tell them to give 100 shillings to so-and-so and instead they use it. You see it's disobedience

because you're the one who gave them that money. So now naturally men can apply effort to what they are doing. But there are people who know that they know that they know where I am, what I'm earning, what I got this is 100% God. Someone else would wear a t-shirt written "blood, sweat and tears" because they believe God did nothing and they came up with all the systems and strategies on their own. So there people, some of us know where we are, if we look at time and what God has done we know it's definitely

God. So you even give that tenth willingly. This can only be God. So the second thing about tithing was to help the poor. It was meant to help the poor. And the third thing was to help refugees. That was the purpose of tithing. It was to help the poor, and part of the poor were the widows. And in the book of Timothy Paul says real widows. So if you're a widow and your relatives can support you they should. But if you're a real widow and you don't have a husband, because economically the man was the

breadwinner. So if you don't have a husband and you don't have anyone to support you then that tithe was meant to help you. The widow, the poor and refugees. Then from the tithe that was brought to the Levites, they would take something called tithe of tithes. So from the 10% that everyone has contributed you take 10% and take to the High Priest. Before you proceed, in the tithe for widows the Lord strategically or specifically ordered or asked people to give tithe to help widows? It was when the storehouse was full. Remember this was an agricultural

economy. People would bring their animals and their harvest. So that's why you hear the word storehouse. So when the storehouse was full you knew who the widows in your community were. And the church could take care of that widow. But why would God take her husband if He knew she would suffer without the husband and start eating the tithe? You see it's not that she's eating the tithe. In the nature of life we'll all die. It's not that God has taken someone away. Everyone will finish their work here and we'll die. And no one has

ever applied for widowhood. Her husband has finished his work here and it's time for him to exit. Your time will also come and it'll be time for you to exit. So God knows that even in your widowhood you shouldn't suffer because if He blesses His people there'll be enough supply. Even though you don't have a husband, there'll be supply in the storehouse. So the moment that there's no supply the Levite has no food, the people in need have no food and all that. And they say in Kenya it's only around between 14% to 24% who

tithe and not faithfully. That's who tithe. America was under 3% of people? Yes. If the church took the governmental system and the church became the church terms of We received tithes and we divided them the way they're meant to be divided we would never hear a story of a refugee and there would never be people who were struggling. Because you can imagine if every congregation took care of their needy and if every congregation was responsible through tithing. So now that people aren't tithing even the pastor doesn't have anything to eat. So that pastor has to

start fundraising. That's why they sell you things because they're just trying to survive. Because the system that was put in place for him to feed has been taken out yet there's demand for him to be in church Monday to Friday. Yeah. There's something you said about people who tithe but they don't know the blessing of tithe. Yes. Does this mean that if you understand the blessing of tithing it's as though God is in your debt? Like "God, I tithed in January and I haven't gotten the blessing." Is that how the system works? The first thing

we don't tithe out of nothing. We tithe out of blessing. Let's say I get a job and get paid, which means God provided that job for me. So this earning is a blessing to me. So if I don't have a job then I shouldn't have to tithe because I don't have anything to give. So we don't tithe from nothing. We tithe from blessing. God has blessed me and I take a portion and honor Him with that portion. So God will always bless us according to our needs. This is not a pyramid scheme, like I tithed

10,000 so you're supposed to give me back 100,000. You can tithe and get a wife. How much is a wife? Because God blesses you according to the needs that are in your life. It is that specific need that you're looking for. That's why the Bible says He will meet us at the point of our needs. The second thing the blessing of tithing is protection. God rebukes the devil. I learned my lesson the hard way. There's a time when if I wasn't faithful with tithe I'd just find things going wrong. There's a time I bought a

phone with the money I was supposed to tithe and then I was stopped by the city council. I was going to preach over lunch hour and they stopped me and gave me a 5,000 shilling fine. As I was on the way to get my car from where they had impounded it my new phone was stolen. When I thought about it I realized that the amount I hadn't tithed was the same amount I'd spent on the phone. Another time I was leaving a worship night and I had parked outside. The spare wheel was stolen. When I

calculated the cost of replacing it... So I started seeing literally if I'm not faithful... And God teaches you differently. My lectures might not be the same as yours. And when I activated the system of tithing I discovered there are levels of attacks that weren't happening to me because I activated a principle of divine protection. I was coming from a worship night where we had been praying but you see what was supposed to shield my wealth was the tithe. Because He said he'll rebuke the devil. So prayer at that level doesn't have the capacity to do

the job that tithe is supposed to do. So now that you understand tithing on that level and you know let's say for example you've spent the money for tithe and then you find your spare wheel stolen you don't even bother looking for suspects? You're just like it's God. You just calculate for yourself. Your spirit just gets conviction and you tell yourself... Because you know there's that point of confusion that God has promised He'll protect me so why are my things being attacked? You know this is my Father. Why am I being attacked? You just get

conviction. And there's someone I argued with because some people in the church don't believe in tithing. So we really argued and he threw some scriptures at me. I told him, you know what, let's go into prayer and ask God "what is your will on tithing?" Because neither of us wrote the Bible. So we can't say you're right and I'm wrong. And literally I took time and I told a few people, you know what, there's this new teaching that says tithing is from the Old Testament. Let's pray so that we can find out if we're teaching

people errors or whether God has authenticated it. So we went into prayer and the first answer was very simple. Every giving should be backed by love. That's the core business. All giving must be from a cheerful and a loving heart. We give because we love God. We give because we love God. There's a lady who broke an alabaster jar at Jesus' feet that was worth one year's salary, Mary Magdalene. Everyone complained, even the disciplines. They asked her why she would pour the oil at Jesus' feet when the money could have been used to help the

needy. Jesus looked at them and said, "This woman knows something you don't." So it is revelation that made her break the alabaster jar. So you can't understand people's commitment in giving until you understand the revelation that they have. You can't know how far God has brought someone. And that's why the people who tithe are in what looks like a cult. You can't convince them. They've seen it working so they know the system isn't a myth. It's real. The second thing, God will tell us that this attack is not an attack on the giving. It's an

attack on the treasury of the church. Because when the church has no money vision is not a problem. Someone said where there is no vision people perish but where there are no people the vision perishes. So you find that people have good ideas, concepts that can change the nation but there are no resources. So how do they implement that? The other day the Catholic Church came together and told the government to leave their schools alone because they're trying to protect a heritage of things they've been teaching children. They feel that this curriculum has some benefits.

So if churches are not empowered enough even to open schools and hospitals because there's that self entitlement then there's a problem. So God said this is an attack on the treasury. And I looked at it. Benny Hinn had a meeting here. It costed almost $1 million to get the kind of equipments, to get the kind of stadium and all that. That was supposed to be the budget. But Benny Hinn came and he said that a lot of things were not necessary. Now you see Benny Hinn was ready to pay all that money because he's come

from a place where people are willing to support the mission. You know guys will give and say, "Go and preach." But it reached a point that Kenyan Bishops said for how long will people be coming to our land and give us money to plan an event and then they go with the blessing and we're left with the gospel? They said this time we want to pay the price. Now that's a meeting. Some people will argue and say it was too much money. Do you know that one ODM meeting would cost 15 million and they used

to have meetings daily during the campaign season? No one complains. People would go to Serena and buy one plate at a million to support a man to sit on a throne for 5 years. But when it comes to things to do with the Kingdom there's a lot of riot, a lot of complaint. But there is no other way people will listen to the gospel if someone won't go and share it and there is no other way. Money will never rain from heaven. God has created a system. So when the treasury is attacked the next thing

is we'll be at the mercies of politicians. The next thing the church will be built by money from strange sources. And when you look at that direction that's where it looks like the church is going. So the second thing God said it's an attack on the treasury. Revivals are expensive. Doing meetings. I do high school missions. We've bought tents and all that. Whatever we bought costed us 60 million. If I was to do a tent meeting one day in a high school it will not cost me less than 3 million. And that's preaching to the

youth. People will complain on Twitter about what's going on in high schools but someone is talking to them. So it's expensive to preach the gospel and one of the systems is the system of giving. But people don't see it until society starts crumbling. That's when people ask what is happening. Number three, God said giving is a product of teaching and revelation. The moment we don't teach the Bible the whole Council of God and we focus on giving only. There is more to God than offering. So there are people who decided they'll give Monday to Monday.

And I won't deny there are people who take advantage in some churches. We won't run away from that. There are people who collect offering, put it in their boot and count it in their bedroom. They are there. But I'll tell you the truth, that's not the majority. They have systems and all that. So there are those debates about tithing but I believe tithing for me is in the Bible and it's one of the requirements for raising resources for the work of God and for the welfare of the people. And God blesses people so that out

of their blessing they're able to partner with His Work. Thank you for that explanation. You mentioned Benny Hinn and I know if I ask you about that now we'll veer off but I want you to make a mental note. When Benny Hinn came people said accidents have started happening, those are sacrifices. I would like you to respond to that. But I don't want you to talk about it now because we'll veer off. Let's just answer it in one sentence. What has been happening... Do you remember when we had COVID? There were daily announcements that people

had died. Have you ever asked yourself how COVID ended? The moment they toned down the announcements about how many people had died psychologically people started healing. If today we start broadcasting how many people are dying from malaria you would think the world is ending. So sometimes things happen that make us narrow down and zoom in. "Someone was hit by a motorbike and they died." It looks like that's the dominating news. And Kenya has those waves where this is happening and this is happening. There are no sacrifices of the...? Spiritually, the people who understand spirituality, deep

spirituality, and this isn't even in the Bible. If you study the occult you'll see that there are specific months for sacrifice. There are seasons spiritually that are seasons to release blessing. And there are seasons spiritually where you'll find there's a lot warfare in the spirit. And the season around April is usually a very contentious season. And you know people can say anything. People can say anything. When a man of God comes in town people... But I can tell you these were not sacrifices. I'll tell you one thing. Before the meeting... And this wasn't captured. Do

you know there was a time people prayed at Nyayo and birds died literally. Like birds? Yes. Now, anyone who understands what we call monitoring spirits, they usually manifest as birds sometimes or... Monitoring spirits? Yes. You can find there's an owl that just comes to your place at a certain time. There's a time I was visited by an owl and a bat. At 7 o'clock it would just come and hang from my door. Then at midnight I'd see an owl watching the house. And when we started getting sick I knew something was following us. So those

are called monitoring spirits. They prayed at Nyayo and they collapsed, not one, not two, not three. It wasn't in the news. And it's just those birds, not chicken? Not those. There were some strange birds that were around there, not the chicken. No. As in monitoring spirits are usually just in those birds? You can't find a monitoring spirit in a chicken? We need to clarify that. What happens a spirit just needs a being, a body. A spirit is a disembodied spirit. It's a disembodied being. It doesn't have a body. Those are monitoring? So monitoring is something

that's been sent to monitor you. Like the devil's CCTV? Yes, exactly. Yes. So you'll find sometimes problems just come up when you're just about to do something you had planned to do because there's something monitoring you. So it's like every move is targeted. It's like spiritual GPS. Okay, spirituality is deep and sometimes when you go in depth it sounds made up. So that was not covered. The kind of operation that happened there... You know any time this is corporate faith, corporate gathering, corporate unity. The kind of operations that happen there are usually serious. That's fine.

So in fact this was another level of tithe offering. What's the difference between tithe offering and sacrifices? Okay let me now go there. There are almost around five givings that exist. There are tithes, alms, first fruit, offering and sacrifices. Those are five. Tithe, alms, first fruit, offerings and sacrifices. Now we've already explained tithe. It's a tenth of your earning to get protection and also supernatural supply. Alms are the money you give to the poor and it's not dictated. But the Bible says he that gives the poor owns God. Because when you help someone in need

they don't see a human being. They see God. If you pay someone's school fees today they'll say God has come through. Because if they were really waiting for something to happen they will see God. And that's why that giving of alms is what the Bible says never let the left see what the right is giving. Because you don't give alms on Kodak moments. Those are not alms. That's flossing. If you're helping the poor you don't need to take a picture of them. Those people never chose to be there. And even in churches I have a

problem sometimes when you call people who are struggling and give them a cheque in church. They never choose to be there. Even us as kings if we told our story, we used to be broke. We could have also been there. But who knew about our destinies? Imagine going back 10 years and you saw a pastor who wants to show their congregation that they do good work so we must parade the poverty of people and begin to show that we are sympathetic. That is hypocrisy. That's why God said whatever the left should never know what the

right gives. If I decided to support a child today that should remain between me, the child and God. But today churches are making tremendous mileage because at the end of the day it is a PR stunt. So alms is a secret. It's you have the heart of God. You want to help but no shouting. It's not time for Kodak and all that. Sometimes for accountability if people give you money, like if we were fundraising here to send 10 children to school for accountability we can show we have paid in this school, we can show the

uniforms and the suitcases. But for integrity of humanity preserve the face. this is a human being who never chose to be where they are. Then number three is offerings. This is something you give willingly. You offer. You just offer. You might even forget. I might ask you how much you gave on Sunday and you don't remember because it is freely, it is willing and it is all that. And then now you come to first fruit. First fruit was when you have 100 mango trees but 10 have ripened. You take those ripe ones, select the best,

you put it in a basket and you take it to the temple one as a thanksgiving, two as a first fruit. So first fruit was a thanksgiving. What was the reason of the first fruit? It was to thank God for harvest. Because the people believed that God is the God of the harvest. Sowing is man's effort. But it takes a lot of God for there to be a guaranteed harvest. And that's where God gives rains and everything at His time. So when they harvested... And the second thing, they connected the harvest to God to say

"Even these 90 will be harvested. We thank you for what we've harvested but even these 90 will be harvested." So sometimes people get a promotion, they get a salary increment and they take it back to God to say thank you for the promotion. Because I said there are people who rise by effort, there are people who rise by prayer. If someone knows they completely believed in God to open this door and it's definitely God who opened it, I tell you the truth he will not struggle to give. But if you bribed the system and slept

with the boss to get your promotion you'll go to the club and buy everyone drinks because it's manmade, you know? But there are those who literally know this is 100% God. Then now there is a sacrifice. Sacrifice is a spiritual language. You can't have a sacrifice without an altar. So there must be an altar. There must be something to be offered. Sacrifices alter spiritual realms. And that's why anyone who understands... A sacrifice can manipulate. The word is manipulate, not just alter. It can manipulate the realm of the spirit. A good example 2 Kings chapter 3.

The Moabites were fighting against Israel. Things were heating up and Moab started losing. Then the king of Moab looked for a solution. He took his child and offered him at the walls of the Moabites as a human sacrifice. The Israelites were filled with fear and they retreated even though the prophet had already told them they were going to win. The language of sacrifice is not in the realm of riches. It's in the realm of wealth. So it's true that we have these things in the underworld where you've been asked to Give your firstborn child, to

sacrifice your child. These things actually are there? It's true. The reason why... There are two things that the underworld usually demand. When they begin to ask for the things you love is to dehumanize you. Loyalty cannot be there until you lose a part of you. In the Bible for a man to serve a king he was made a eunuch. The man would be castrated so that he can serve the king so that nothing would come out. There's a difference between castration and circumcision? Yes. Castration is the whole thing? Castration is the crushing of your balls.

Circumcision is the cutting of your foreskin. So castration simply means there's no viability. You can't give birth. And why did they do that? It was the law of the system by that time both secular. If you served the king you had to be castrated so that you don't pass your seed. Lest you sleep with royal family you don't bring your common seed to the royal family. The second thing was so that you can be loyal to the throne. Because there are things that disrupt our loyalty. You see right now if I get a call and

they tell me my child is sick this show would end Because my loyalty is scattered. So for the people who are in the dark world the devil demands loyalty. And part of that is to dehumanize you, is to take what you love so that you can do what he wants because you have paid the price. That's the first level. The second level is being asked for something you love that is painful because they have to work on your appetite and your hunger. How bad do you want this thing? That's why you'll find people who are

rich through demonic powers and they will never help anyone in their family. Someone can have many cars but you look at the status of their parents they are languishing because that man was dehumanized. The devil does not give you anything to support communities. It must be used in the confinement of his agenda. And people sacrifice. You know you can sacrifice stuff, you can sacrifice self, you can sacrifice in terms of time. People sacrifice to gain wealth. That's why I told you the level of riches is about principles, laws and disciplines. The level of wealth is

spiritual. I'll tell you, the Freemasons have studied Solomon as a specimen. That's why when you rise to a certain level in the Freemasons you're given something they call the Solomonic ring because they believe Solomon had control over 72 demons and these demons were responsible for his wealth creation. The specimen because globally there is no man that has broken the record of Solomon. In the day of Solomon gold was like dust and silver. It was like dust. Economies today measure wealth with gold bars. In the days of Solomon gold was like dust to a point the

wheels of his chariots were made of gold. That's how useless gold was. So globally there is no man that has broken. The man was wise, the man was wealthy, the man was influential. No man individually has broken and will break the record of Solomon. Are you saying he was not a man of God? He was a man of God. But he controlled 12 demons? Now that is according to the Freemason mythology. They believe. If you ask me spiritually the man must have overcome every spirit that hinders men from breaking ceilings. But if another one reads

because spirituality when I overcome... In spirituality when I'm above in a certain rank and Spirits are under me they will take my orders. But are you saying that there's a certain level of money that you can't attain or that you can't reach. Yes. You can't be an atheist. Let me say that. You must have a certain path of spirituality. That's why I'm saying there's a certain level of money you cannot attain by working hard? Yes. Like you have applied the principles of borrowing, investing. That is in riches. I've told you riches is accumulation. Five cars,

five houses, whatever. That one is there. I've sat down with influential people and I tell you the truth there is a ceiling you break and you cannot ignore spirituality. Yes. What is this ceiling? That's the ceiling of wealth. Wealth comes with so many things. Wealth isn't accumulation. Wealth includes political influence, wealth includes economic influence, wealth includes social influence, wealth includes academic influence, wealth includes spiritual influence. You can't be wealthy if those five influences are not working. And even just having social influence that you can stand and influence people there is a backup. People don't just

love people. I tell you there is a realm you can't be an atheist. You know on this show it's all about understanding how money works, right? Let me tell you and that's why I said go today to the wealthy Arab Nations. Their spirituality is Islam. It is not in a vacuum. Go to China their spirituality is Buddhism. Those people believe in levels of meditation. In meditation there's a level where people open the third eye, they open the chakras. They're able to meditate until they enter a certain realm spiritually. And that's why you hear people talking

about, you know, this realm is for relaxing and attracting positive energies, inspiration, creativities. That is spirituality. There is no vacuum when it comes to wealth. And that's why when you hear us Christians debating about tithe, first fruit and all That, there are people who've come from that realm, the level of sacrifices they are giving. If you study Solomon the Bible says when God visited him He asked him, "What do you want?" He said, "Give me wisdom to lead your people." God told him, "I won't give you only wisdom. I'll give you wealth because they go

together." That wisdom is beyond academic wisdom. It's understanding of a very high level. It's spiritual understanding. And when he built a temple the Bible says Solomon sacrificed, 2 Chronicles 7, until the altar could not hold the sacrifices on the altar and the glory of God fell and no priest could minister before the Lord. The intensity of sacrifice we counted it one day in church it was in a day a man sacrificed Animals worth 3 billion Kenyan shillings in a day, burned, going on flames. There's something that man knew. Burning like they will eat the meat

like Kamakis later or just burning for the sake of burning? There was a time I was in Dubai and I met some people, they were around 15, wearing white towels. They didn't have anything else. They just tied a towel and wore sandals. They looked like very important people. Something told me in my spirit this is a spiritual operation. Can you imagine being a billionaire and you've been told that to sustain a certain level of power you need to go to the airport wearing these ritual clothes and stay like that until you land in your country?

There are people who make covenants. I know there's a guy just here in Tanzania. His covenant was very simple: you'll become rich but don't ever wear shoes. That guy does not wear shoes. So when we look at the reason why majority of us are average it's because we play around with spirituality. People sleep in graveyards just to gain power. People are willing to do anything. That's what we call witchcraft, right? Or there's witchcraft and also spiritual connections? What happens it's beyond. There's a place in Satanism called occultism. In occultism whenever you want something you become

connected to a certain occultic order. So if I want riches and influence I'll be connected to an occultic order and then I'll be trained on what sacrifices to offer and demands that I need to perform, the operations I'm supposed to perform. So I could be told to wake up everyday at 3 a.m. and face north and chant certain words 700 times. And people wake up? If you don't do it they'll know. The network feels incomplete. And you can even die. Because that's the demand to sustain the spirit that gives you influence. And that's how you

can even be told to come and give a sacrifice in a certain area. Like right now many young people are into money rituals. There are people who you see always have money even though you know they don't come from a rich background. Aren't they just running forex scams? It's not forex. Sometimes it's money rituals. It's money rituals. So what do Christians sacrifice when other people are sacrificing their children? That's where now the patterns of scripture come. Now you see for us there's nothing we can sacrifice because Jesus became the best sacrifice. So once we start

understanding about altars and sacrifice, you know bulls, cows, humans, all of them are in different levels. If humans are also considered, you've grouped them with cows, like these are sacrifices. Boss, there's a level of power that if you demand you'll be told to sacrifice a human being, the blood of a human. Because what happens in the realm of the spirit blood carries speech. Let me explain. When someone goes to a witchdoctor and is asked to provide a chicken there's no issue with the chicken itself. The issue is with its blood. That blood is what they

use. So what they will do... So that's someone who just wants a little money. Maybe they just want a simple operation. Like, "King'ori has a new show and we don't want it to be impactful," so he's told to bring three chickens. So they're caught and he says, "When this blood spills, as we shed this blood the man will not have influence." So as it's slaughtered he gives speech to the blood. So now that blood is what speaks in the spiritual realm. So when you start looking at ranks of bulls and all that that's how it

goes. Now the highest blood that someone can shed is the blood of a person. That's why areas that have a lot of political war, deaths you study them spiritually they're very dark. It's places with a lot of conflict. Places where people die daily. That blood has a lot of authority in the realm of the spirit demonically. When you sacrifice someone are they given a job or they have a responsibility to haunt the person who killed them? What happens if you go to a spiritualist you tell them your problems. When you tell them your problems they

know what kind of a spirit to summon. Every spirit has a different demand. So you might demand something of a very high order and you're told, "Whatever you've demanded for me to summon this spirit there's a certain ritual we must perform." So this is the good story and this is why Christians we are so blessed. Because among all the bloods the blood of a human being is the highest. And the altar that bears human blood is a very strong altar. Now as a Christian I cannot shed any blood. Why? Because when Jesus died what was

needed from Jesus was the blood. It's blood. That's why when you read, Jesus was called the Passover lamb. The only way to get blood from a Passover lamb was by hanging it from hooks. The only way to get blood from Jesus was to hang Him on a cross on hooks to drain all the blood. That's why the Bible says the blood of Jesus speaketh better things than the blood of bulls and the blood of Abel. Because Abel was the first innocent man to be killed by his brother Cain. So when we look at the realm,

even if you tell me you've sacrificed 100 cows to stop me I won't be afraid. I'll identify with the blood that was spilled on my behalf and the altar that I identify with. Salvation is beyond going to church and clapping your hands and all that. That's why you hear people saying they cover themselves with the blood of Christ. So that's actually a threat? That someone will make a sacrifice against you? That's actually...? Boss, have you ever heard someone saying, "Watch me." That person can go to their spiritualist and they'll do things to you if you

don't have a cover. There are people who cover themselves with other spiritualists. Like there's a funeral that happened somewhere in Western. A spirtualist had sent his powers to make someone sick. The person went to another spiritualist. That spiritualist made the other one die. He bypassed whatever the first one had done? Yeah. It was power for power. At the funeral for the one who died, the other spiritualist came up and said, "Don't mess with me. This is my work," and he left. Let me tell you, when you go deep into Western you'll understand these things. People

in the city thinks these things are just stories. If you go to Western, Kisumu, Mombasa, there are areas. There are territories. If you go to Embu there are places deep in there, if you go to Kitui. You'll get to learn boss, you can't touch some of these grandmothers. They have a certain authority. They'll just hit some stones together and confuse your destiny. So until you understand spirituality from the Bible that's what gives us an advantage. That's why I told you when I look at what God has done for me, that I have His blood to

overcome blood of occultic, satanist, anyone. Becauase I've seen it work. I've seen in the name of Jesus someone who was demon possessed be subdued until they even tell you, "We submit." And you know this thing has authority. That's what I was thinking about when you explained this story. Yes of course it's very fascinating when you talk about all these things. I think I couldn't avoid just thinking of now that you know all these things have you ever met demons? A lot. A lot. They even appear in the house. In your house? Like you can just

be relaxing and then you see an evil spirit? It's called unlocking spiritual levels. Like you've unlocked a level where we can be relaxing and there's demons around but you can see them? Of course. The spiritual realm needs sight. There was a time Mammon visited me. Mammon is a spirit. It visited me because at that time we were working on a project in church and people weren't really giving enough to support us. So I told people that in the next month I would teach about giving so that at least they could start giving. But it made

me question whether I should change what I preach so that I can preach and make people give? I felt condemned. Then a few days I felt the Holy Spirit telling me to teach about Jesus. Don't change your message just because of a church project. Then I heard a very loud voice telling me that many pastors have been hijacked because of projects. They were happy and they loved God when they were in a church made of ironsheet. Once they started building a concrete church they started preaching about giving because they wanted to finish the project. And

so I went to church and told people, "Give what you want. You don't have to if you don't want to. I know this project belongs to God." That night I saw something looking at me angrily. Because that was a trap and it's only that God saved me. So sometimes you can wake up in the night and just sense a demonic presence in the room. Especially sometimes if you've gone to minister in some place and God wants to do something the following day. So you just a demonic presence. You just walk in and you feel something

is wrong. So that's where you start praying. Sometimes you can feel like you're being choked. Sometimes you feel... There's a place I went to in the Coast and I told myself to find a good hotel so that I could preach and have a holiday, like a workcation. I didn't sleep that night. I kept feeling like there were people messing with me. So I had to pray. I told them I was going to fight back. But I didn't sleep that night. I had to go to church tired. But after preaching I understood what was supposed to

happen. And that night they didn't disturb me again. So those attacks exist. But it depends on your rank. I hear people talk about accidents. It's happened to me when I was with Danny Gift. And I'm bringing him up so that you can ask him if you don't believe me. We were coming from Kisumu. At some point we saw an old woman dressed in yellow with her hair standing up, barefoot, Coming to our side. I was driving and I veered off. On the other side there was a 40-foot lorry, a trailer, coming down as we were

going up. I veered off and veered to this other side and I just knew I had hit her. But no one was there. Then I heard Danny saying it was the devil. So I asked him whether he also saw it. Because I was thinking maybe I was just tired. When you hear those stories about a driver who saw something weird and veered... Boss. And sometimes those areas are a hotspot. You'll find those are the places where there's a demand for sacrifice. Someone has marked it as the place where they're going to grow their strength. We

call them gatekeepers. There's a gatekeeper in that territory. Yeah. So these things happen. I'm not trying to scare people. I've seen when you say "in the name of Jesus" those spirits leave you. You just turn on the lights and you say, "Whatever is in this house, I command you in Jesus name to leave. The Bible has promised me He gives sleep to them that He loves." And you turn off the lights and you sleep. Because if you know you're sleeping in barracks, you won't wake upeven if you hear gunshots. Because you know that the people

who live in those barracks can fight back. So when we begin to understand the authority of the kingdom of God and the power in the kingdom of God, the power of the blood of Jesus, even if you tell me someone has sacrificed 100 cows I won't lose any sleep because I know in the realm of the spirit the highest blood is the blood of Jesus. No matter what ritual they do the blood of Jesus is the highest. And when Jesus died he gave his blood speech. He said it is finished. That "it is finished"... This

is deep, but if you translate it to Greek it says tetelestai. Tetelestai is when people went to war and started winning, the commander would leave and find a raised area. When he saw there were only like 10 soldiers left, immediately they were killed he would shout "Tetelestai." The battle is over. It is finished. So on the cross when Jesus said it is finished the Greek word is tetelestai. The battle is over. The enemy and his people have lost. So whoever identifies with Jesus is on the winning side. Whoever identifies with this other kingdom will have

to depend on their sacrifices. So that's how it is. So when you know that someone has delivered you from all that, I even stopped tithing and I'll tell you why. I stopped counting only 10% for God. I give more than 10%. Okay. And you've really explained the spiritual connection of money because that's something I was hoping actually to bring up. You've explored it from very many angles. In case of anything I'll follow up. But you've also said you refused deliberately to go and preach about giving, like pressuring people to give. Yes. When you go to

a supermarket sometimes people talk about strategic design that when you enter you have to buy, including the way sweets and small things are put at the counter to Tempt you, to play with your appetite. Some people would argue that the same happens in church in terms of giving. And I'll call it guilt tripping strategies. Yes, even threats. Sort of like from a cynic's perspective you'll find in church when the offertory bags are being passed around some people will comfortably pass it on without giving. So sometimes I feel, or again from a cynic's perspective, when it's

put at the front the embarrassment of remaining seated is tough. So you have. Like psychological games to make sure that you give. I saw a video that would really complement that of someone strategically... There's a video of people giving in church. People come and there's someone strategically standing next to the offering box looking at or checking people giving. Checking. There's also some people who take. But this one there was no way that someone could take. It's the one where you put it in like this. Then the video is trending because a lady comes and puts

air. And you can see they have nothing. They're willing to come, they woke up to come but they have nothing, right? Does the church operate like that in some instances? Of course different people have different ways to manage how they collect their offerings. I said that the church has so many expenses. And the only way to maintain them is through people's offering. Electricity, some people have leased the land, there's ongoing projects. Churches have very many expenses. And people have different creative ways of collecting an offering. And we can't say that there's a certain way. Because

even in Jesus' time how did he know that this woman had given a lot? He looked at the amount. That's why he said, "This woman has given more than any of you." Because he knew her heart, her capacity and he knew that what she gave was more than everyone. In those days those offerings were more. Because back in the day when you went to the synagogue, let's say you came from Meru and the temple was in Nairobi, you can't carry a goat from Meru to here. So you'd estimate the value of the goat at 50

shillings and you'd come with 50 shillings and put it in the offering bag. You'd say the 50 shillings was your tithe. And they were marked, tithe, alms, and all that. So different churches have different ways depending with your audience to motivate their people to give. Some have shrewd ways. Some threaten you and say that you're stealing from God. They say if you don't tithe you're robbing from God. You're a robber. So people give out of threats. And that's why when you give out of a threat you might miss the blessing. It's the revelation. There are

others who use manipulation. You preached powerfully, you've prayed for someone and maybe they've healed, then you hear God has said, "Release a seed of 7,000. I see 10 people who need to release 7,000." I went to a church where the pastor said, "I see angels with baskets and each angel demands $1,000." I said those are American angels. Let them go to America. We're in Kenya. How is an angel asking for $1,000? If it was one of ours they'd ask for Kenyan shillings. So I told myself that is now manipulation. And sometimes people give that money

and they're blessed through faith. Because faith is a principle thing. And then there are people who give willingly. It's not a big deal. Giving is like AOB. Then there are people who just look for creative ways of encouraging people to give. So personally if it's a creative device I don't mind. As long as you've preached the gospel and you're just finding ways to get people to give. Manipulation and threats, that's where the problem is. Because you can't threaten people forever. And I'll tell you the truth, Kenyans are so generous but Kenyans are so smart. Even

the people who know that their money is being stolen still give but out of fear. They know that they're giving to God but they know their money isn't used for God's work. But Kenyans... Let's just look at a few things that people have done online. You realize Kenyans have the heart to give if you give them the reason to give. And I've discovered, and I'll say this from a personal level. When people understand God and they understand the reason for giving you will not struggle. You don't need to sell anything. People will give. And why

can't the church operate with structure? Instead of depending on the randomness of whether people give or not, right, why can't The church have a budget and have commitments from members? Like, "Our rent is this. How many people can contribute?" There are churches that do that. There are churches with those systems. You'll hear someone saying, "The whole of this year my wife and I will give 100,000." That is what people call pledges. So you find I've just decided for myself. Or you're given a breakdown for a project and you come up with a plan. These conversations

where people say they'd rather give their money to poor people, sometimes we're the ones who make people say that. Because sometimes we come and vomit on them. Because how can I stand up on Sunday...? I once heard a pastor and it rubbed me the wrong way when he started talking about how much his shoes cost and how God has blessed him because his shoes are 10,000 shillings. You're vomitting on me. "The other day I took my wife to lunch and I can't a meal for less than 5,000." Someone like that... And that's the video that

will trend. Then when that video trends you start hearing people saying, "I'd rather take my money to a children's home. Those old men... This is our money." But I can tell you the truth there is that calibre. You can't miss them. They use manipulation. They'll sell everything to make that money. And the church belongs to them and their wife, even on the posters and everything. It's a private family business. And they might have a gift from God. They can pray for you and everything. But when it comes to operation there's nothing there. And there are

churches that have very good structures. Every penny is accounted for. Yeah. And they're the majority by the way. It's just that they can't trend. They trend. Yours is trending. When we go to giving, does the altar matter? Of course I know you've explained it differently. Does the altar where you give money matter? Yeah. Because there's a pastor, and I quote him because he came out himself and said he never forced anyone to give that 310. People gave willingly. Yeah. And that's why he can't even be sued. That case was hard. The altar matters. What happens

to the people who used to give knowing that they're giving for a good cause, they're giving as it is written? The advantage is that God in His wisdom looks at our hearts. That is the advantage. But when we come to matters about principles and laws there are people who run churches but are diviners and people who practice witchcraft. But they run churches. And I'll tell you how witchcraft connects with someone who is teaching the Bible. The first level of manipulating the Bible is manipulating tenses. Tenses. Tenses in the sense that there are things that God

has already done. But instead of telling you this is a complete work I will tell you God will do. He has not done. So you have partner with God so that he can do it for you. In short I can tell you God will bless you but until you release a sacrifice that hurts you he won't bless you. Or what will I say? God wants to open a door in your life but you have to part with something difficult for Him to open that door. Now that is not the God of the Bible. God says,

"I've opened a door that no man can shut. Without any demand from anyone, I've already opened the door." So when we manipulate tenses of the Bible we bring man to a place where he has to help God. And if you help God then He'll act. So there are altars where people have bought strange powers. You'll find someone who just does exorcisms from 8 to 1. So it's like we just went to see exorcisms. Those people will never teach the victory Christ gave the church. They will never mature you to overcome and become victorious. They will

always teach you about the threat of demons and how they can deliver you, and how you have to come with a seed and buy annointing oil and buy a handkerchief and buy holy water. I tell you, those guys are running a business. Such an altar if it is tied to a demonic spirit and you take your money there and you prosper The day you leave that altar you'll go broke. Because you went to someone practicing witchcraft. You didn't go to a church. And there are people who change churches and get broke. You even hear them

saying, "This grace is what saves people. If you leave you'll suffer." Those people are practicing witchcraft. Does that mean there are people who work for the devil in the name of God? Yeah. Paul says beware of dogs. Paul insulted them. He said beware of dogs. So how does one know that you're giving to the right altar? I tell people to test the spirit. But the commandments say don't test God. You're not testing God. You're testing the spirit. There are places where you'll sense, even though you're not born again, you just feel that there's something off.

Even though I've never read the Bible, there's something off with the things that are happening. And there are places where even if you don't know God that well you'll still feel at home. People are loving. You just feel God's presence. That's testing the spirit? That's testing the spirit. Even right now if I take you to a church and ask you what you think about it, you could say that even though you don't know God that well you still questioned why they have to get up in people's faces. You know? Or why did they have to

pour water on people? Because your spirit is just put off. Because everyone has God's witness. That's why a drunkard can go to a crusade and take off his hat even though no one has told him to do that. Because his spirit tells him this is a holy place and he respects it. Because there's his drunkardness but there's also his spirit. It's the same way you can go to a place and just tell yourself that something is wrong. Even before I was born again there are people I would observe and I'd just know that they're strange.

Especially if you find a place that emphasizes a person more than God. Every testimony is "When Papa, when the man of God, when the prophet, when the apostle prayed for me..." Those are marketing skills. You see how gamblers have testimonials, "I had 20 shillings and I bet it and then I won." Boss, when he finishes speaking so many people place bets because they believe the testimony. So if you say, "I had this problem. And on Sunday I came and Apostle T laid his hands over me and said that I'm blessed and then my problem for

20 years went away," what are you telling the people? When Apostle T's hand lands on you your life will be changed. So what will people begin to do? They will not seek my God. They will seek my hand. So if I tell you you have to give 10,000 and then we trust in God to handle that matter, you see now you're creating a system around a man. And in Kenya I'll tell you in the next 10 to 15 years there are people who will die and their churches will collapse because it was built on a

man, not on God. That's the worst scenario. We won't deny that God starts with a person. But that person must be very sensitive. They have to find their own 12 people to walk with them. So that the day they leave the remaining 12 will continue the mission. If you do it one-man... One-man, even the devil won't be disturbed by you. He knows that once you die whatever you were building will fall. It'll go with you. And speaking of the underworld, there are people who... It's actually a thing around social media about illuminati. There were even

people who had joined and were told, "This is how you enter," right? Does it mean that there there's a kind of people they choose? Or as long as they they nominate you and you can give sacrifices you're in? You know there's no such thing as illuminati. Illuminati is just a word that was coined later. The sect that exists is the Freemasons. So under Freemasons... Because the Freemason idea is control. And to get control you can't work with idiots. And for you to even join the Freemasons you must be suggested by someone else. And they have

to look at your profile and realize you're an asset, not a liability. So people think that you can join when you're broke to get rich. Someone must propose you and the organization must accept you for you to join. You can't just wake up and join. These others are under Satanism. So there's Freemasonry. And the funniest thing is that you can be a Freemason and a Satanist. But you can't be a Satanist and a Freemason. Rituals are found in Satanism. In fact witchcraft and all those things, wizardhood are found in Satanism. That's where you're told to

sacrifice seven goats and do whatever else. Everything you need is attached to a ritual. And then there is luciferianism. Luciferianism and Satanism are different? Satanism is where the dark world is found. Those people don't hide. They're dark, they're mystic, they survive on altars, enchantments, all manner depending with what you need. So whatever you need you're introduced to the spirit and the demands of that spirit. There are people who can't join certain ranks because the spirit you're demanding to work with can't work with a drunkard. Because if you miss one instruction you're dead. And there are

also people who the spirit doesn't mind that you're a drunkard. So the higher you want to arise the bigger the consecration to sacrifice and to obey. It's not a game that you just join. I'm telling you there are many people who've joined and want to leave but can't because of threats and also the demands you've been given. And those demands, one instruction and you're dead. That's how it operates. So Luciferianism has come with the new wave of stay woke. Because Luciferianism is pegged on Genesis 3 that Lucifer came to the Garden of Eden To enlighten

man from an oppressive god. And you'll find a branch of atheism which is 100% influenced by Luciferianism. So Lucifer presents himself as a light bearer because God has created man and then imposed rules on him. He creates man, gives him sexual desires and then tells him, "Thou shalt not fornicate." This is a wicked God. So Lucifer came to deliver liberty, do what thou will. So there's a whole curriculum and it's lectures to free men from religion that binds men and hinders them from their freedom. That's why you hear the generation saying stay woke. That is

literature from Luciferianism. And when they open the pages of scripture they try to portray God as a wicked God. You'll hear them saying God killed children. Why did God do these things? That God is merciless. So we bring reason but we don't understand context of the theology behind that. And since people don't read the Bible they say, "By the way." Like I saw a woman saying, "Let me do some gaslighting. God came to frustrate Job just to prove a point." But if you look at the context of the 42 chapters you start to understand why

this thing had to happen. So Luciferianism uses logic to portray God as an evil being and religion as enslavement where people need to avoid. But what people don't know is spirituality. The world is not becoming secular. The world is becoming spiritual. And when we talk about darkness it doesn't mean literal darkness. Darkness means absence of revelation. To mean that people don't know the truth of God. So deception, manipulation, control by the demonic becomes the order of the day. A young girl went live saying her favourite thing is astral projection. And you find a generation that's

refused to go to church and you see the attacks being raised are that the church wants to take your money. But when something happens... Right now if it floods heavily in Kenya you'll see people calling for prayers. Which God are you praying? So there's a conscious acceptance there's a God but the protocols are God is our rescue centre. When things get tough we run there. When things are okay we go out and party. Great. Very well explained. So as we close, is there good money and is there bad money in this sense, someone has stolen

but has paid tithe from that and wants the blessing from the tithe. Break it down for us. Tithe comes from your sweat. You see when you identify with the Kingdom of God you identify with the protocols of the Kingdom. So God has encouraged people to... In fact the Bible says God teaches our hands how to make wealth. So God takes responsibility. So anything that is against God, if you've worked in prostitution and taken tithe that's just a ritualistic giving. That's why sometimes you hear people saying, "We cleanse this money." You've robbed someone and given tithe,

that cannot be accepted in the store. It will go to the church but according to the protocols of blessings it's not considered as money that God... God blesses the work of our hands. You've stolen in government and gotten corruption money and you've taken it to church. It doesn't move anything. And you've helped the poor? And you've helped the poor. In fact sometimes it's always a curse even on your side and even on the other side. And it's good you've asked that question. As someone who receives money for God how I handle it is also very

risky. If you read the book of Samuel Eli's children attracted a curse because of abusing God's offering. Sometimes we pastors attract curses when we start abusing God's money. Because people give to God but we are the custodians. If we start using it for our enrichment and using it for us to grow then it becomes a curse we're bringing on ourselves. So you have to be very sensitive with God's money. Yeah. That's why I say once you've given money to the church, giving means when I tell you "Take this phone." You can put in a Zain

line or Safaricom or Telkom. That's none of my business. I've already given it. So sometimes let's not sometimes go to know how it was used. Do your part but make sure that where you go first of all is a right place so that your giving also is acceptable, for lack of a better word, and your conscious feels, "I'm giving in a place where I receive bread and wine." It's very key. And then another thing people ask, before we close, if you watch T.D Jakes right now Or watch a pastor from Nigeria and you go to

a local church, where should your tithe go? It should go to your local church. If the Nigerian pastor will come to bury you or to dedicate your child then give him tithe. So is tithe an investment in your funeral? No. It's not a funeral investment. It's where we receive bread and wine, spiritual nourishment. What you can give on the other side is seed. Seed is just something you give for support. But you take it to your local church. The other thing is "I was in Kitengela and I moved to Limuru so now I go to

church in Limuru. Where should I tithe?" So you should know that where you get bread and wine is where you should tithe. But now online has also opened things up because there are people who are receiving bread and wine and pastoral care and they identify with that church. It's acceptable? Yeah. I have membership of people who we pastor online and we give them pastoral care outside of the nation where churches don't exist. India, wherever else. So those ones can tithe. So if you decide it's T.D Jakes online, T.D Jakes online. Don't go and eat bread

at your local church? Yeah. The funniest thing, and I'll tell you, a research was done of one of the leading Nigerian preachers, a young preacher. The second givers to his ministry are Kenyans. There was even a time T.D Jakes... Second higest givers are Kenyans. There's a time T.D Jakes addressed that matter and he addressed it to Kenyans. He said the tithe belongs to your local church but offerings and support, missionary seeds, TV, whatever else you can give. Because I think he felt he was robbing the local church. Because those are the people who are walking

with this community. When there's a problem they go and pray for them. When there's something being dedicated they're the ones doing the works of ministry. And that's why you'll find sometimes people compare the Kenyan churches with international churches. When you step in some of those churches the commitment of their giving is on another level. There's a church in Nigeria the man of God said "7 people offered to pay for the sound setup but this 1 person has paid for it all. The rest of you can use your money for another project or keep it." I

said, what? One man? Because they understand. If we support our local "pastors", support their visions those men have greater visions. You'll see where they will go. Some of them will even be greater than those ones there. But if your pastor wakes up and goes to a job and then comes on Sunday, where would he get time to pray? Where would he get time to look for the word? You guys meet in town as you're both hustling. Yes, and I think that goes to address what people were saying about how Kenyan pastors should get a second

job. Like being a pastor isn't a job. Personally I'll say when the ministry needs you full time the ministry must take care of you full time. Okay. And you guys are doing good work at Life Church International. Very good vibes. Every time I come I find massive transformations. Right now it's interesting that you have people in employment. When someone is employed in the church they're not eating into the money for the gospel or into God's money? Why are people giving? There's no day I take the offering to God in heaven. And when someone is paid

from the offering money should they also tithe? Isn't that double taxation? You see a tithe is an earning. So that means you're working in a church and you have earned from church. The reason I say that is because I'm a parent. There's a day I asked myself, if today I was told my child was going to church Monday to Friday and I'm giving them fare, I'm giving them food, but they say they serve God, how will I feel as a parent? Because they're people who we keep in church who literally don't have another job. So

just as a responsible parent and a responsible pastor you ask yourself, what is this person eating? Where do they live? What do they wear? Because I'm depending on them here to do the sound setup for me to do morning glory, to set up the camera for me to do lunch hour, to set up in the evening for evening service, to collect the offering. And I don't even know where they live. Some even sleep in the church. And maybe you've parked a Benz outside and you're building a 5-bedroom house when someone else is sleeping in church.

And you still expect them in the morning. Sometimes they tell the pastor that they haven't eaten and the pastor gives them 1,000 shillings. You know, I felt for me this is inhuman. Let's just be civilized and look at this thing as a job. Let's tell the person, "You have a skill we need and you're a child of this house You're a member here, number one. We know you've studied videography. You're a professional cameraperson and editor. That's a skill you have and I need that skill." And that skill helps me spread the gospel, and through spreading

the gospel people get blessed and give offering. So part of this can I budget for your skill? And look in the marketplace at how much people are paid. If someone at a media station is paid 30,000 we can discuss and agree to start you off at 25 as we grow together because I'm not a media station. But as we grow, as the church continues growing we'll also begin to check on other areas. Not only will that person give you better service but even in your own heart... That's someone's child. You'll be a blessing to them.

And two things, the final things. How do you draw the line between serving God and serving the church? Like if I play piano today I'm a music graduate but you pay me. But now this is the gospel. That's the first thing. Then second why don't the cameramen fall down during prayers of deliverance? Let me start with the cameraman not falling. There are places where they do. But now you'll find most of the times the people who are there... There are even times the pastor says, "Right now there's no pastor, there's no cameraman, there's no sound

man. God's power will find you anywhere." But also there are places where those cameramen are hired and so they must be where the action Is. So they have nothing to do with the presence of the Lord? By the time that shoot is ending the man of God comes and looks at it and tells you, "Camera 4, you didn't get this shot. When this woman was vomitting you were supposed to zoom in so that we can see what's coming out." You know, because once that is captured it's able to trigger emotions or whatever it's going to

trigger. Because a friend of mine was hired and said that day he was super drunk. And when he saw how people were falling down he tried to escape the pastor so that he doesn't fall as well. But the pastor was calling him and telling him, "Shoot this." So you know when this goes to TV... This is a market. So he doesn't want to get close to the pastor because he's drunk. So that's the day he left taking jobs in churches because he felt like the demonic presence might attack him. Isn't it just like shooting a

TV show? Okay, church is sensitive. That's why they say that if you work in a church you should be born again. Know what you're walking into. Because the other issue with churches is that this money has been prayed over. You'd just be looking for trouble. So the best thing is to come and look at the need of the church. Look at the demand you're placing over that person and then you talk. I told the people in my church, if you see church as an employer you will lose the heart of service. But as a responsible

pastor I have to take care of you. So I don't want you to come to church and say that your money has run out here. Because we can't serve God and say that your money has run out here. And I sat them down and asked them, "Where are you at? Where were you at in your first job? How much were they paying you? So if this is where you were when I'd call you and you'd say you're not available, where you used to go from 8 to 5, this is how much they were paying you.

So if I give you the same amount you'll stay here from 8 to 5." And they'd say, "That's fine with me, Pastor." You even ask others to move closer to the church so that we can kill the cost of transport. And they tell you they don't have money and you tell them you'll pay for them to move at least so that you can make sure they're comfortable. And when I come in the morning I want to see you here. And I won't talk to you from a place of, "I paid you." It's from a place

of "This is God's work we're doing. Play your part and I play mine." And I tell you the truth, it makes even the people buy the vision and buy the joy. And for me it was a very personal conviction because I realized there are levels where people feel like you're rising on your own. Because we all started together and we were all broke but we believed in the vision. And then we see things start to rise. The pastor buys a car, his dress code changes but we're still in the same place. Bitterness starts growing. People

start feeling like they've been felt behind. The pastor follows protocol. It looks like he's in another level and then he starts looking down at you because whether you're there or not, the congregation still comes. But in the past he treated you like he needed you. And at the end of the day it goes back to the heart of the man. In 30 seconds can you explain to us that story about separating service to God and service to church? Separating service is just in your heart. It's up to you. If you want to see it as

employment well and good. If you want to see it as "this is my service to God and the pastor has seen that I facilitate what I'm doing" well and good. Though there are places where people have HR systems and people are paid according to the market rate and they're given job descriptions so that at least you know what you're supposed to deliver and what's expected of you. You see when you tell me, "Do the lighting for this set and set up the table and bring water. That's your job. But that doesn't mean that if you

see something else is wrong you shouldn't fix it. But at least if you do this it makes me appreciate you." Which for me I feel it's always very good. You get value for your money and also people enjoy serving God and even they feel honored, appreciated. And the system moves and it can even grow and become very big. Yes. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for coming through. Thank you very much for sparing your time and availability to share knowledge with people. This goes a long way in helping us in our quest

to understand how money works, especially the spiritual connection. Thank you so much for sticking with us up to this point. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed our content. I trust this was time well wasted. Please feel free to join our family by hitting Subscribe and turning on the notifications bell. We have a lot of good vibes already uploaded on the channel. We have so much more coming through. So please, don't be left out. I trust that you also loved our set. This episode has been shot on location at Wojo. Wojo is a premium

coworking space in Nairobi, Upperhill area, Mercure Hotel, formerly Crowne Plaza. If you ever are in need of an office space, a shared working space with flexible terms of engagement, flexible contracts, a wonderful place, a place that can bring out the best in you as far as creativity is concerned, a place that can bring out the best of you as far as productivity is concerned, to get in touch with Wojo we'll leave a link for you in the description below. Feel free to get in touch. I've been your host Dr. King'ori. See you on the next

one.