Hello everybody welcome to another episode of the change of Minds podcast my name of course is Owen Fitzpatrick and I'm delighted to be joined by a very good friend of mine MrAdam Boyd Adam has been training and Consulting on sales with Founders owners and individuals on sales and sales leadership since 2008. several clients have had successful exits though he's not claiming a direct correlation but I would not be at all surprised he's had two stints as a middle Market executive leading sales one time with a lot of success and look at another time were not very much of either most of his work now is with professional service providers such as attorneys high-end Consultants those in real estate Finance benefits or wealth management he loves helping those in highly competitive markets win more of the right clients through training he survived the action School of Business and read a lot of books at Rhodes College he lives in the greatest country in America Texas with his wife four kids and a new dog Adam so great for you to be on thanks so much for joining me mate oh and it's great to be with you I always enjoy a conversation so look we were presenting in the same Mastermind and you came after me and one of the things that I was very impressed with was your style was really relaxed I think you can tell even by your bio that you're a humble guy but yet you're very successful in the work that you've done over the years what I would love to do is I want to explore your approach and your style before I do that give us just a quick background of how you found yourself in the position that you're in today what you're doing today yeah I appreciate that I was in business school and like a lot of people who go to business school I was really trying to delay figuring out what I was doing I thought that it would my very godmother would show up and tell me and I looked around my class and I saw a really sharp talented hard-working people but they were all going into Finance marketing and operations and so I said I'm gonna go a different direction I stumbled into a sales training business and I thought I'll do this for three or six months while I'm continuing to find out what I'm gonna do and I ended up doing it for nine years because we had some success life changed I changed a lot I learned a great deal and my work in that time has evolved my knowledge base has evolved I've added different tools and skill sets um I literally like a lot of people found this by accident and I enjoy selling um I enjoy seeing people succeed I enjoy ideas and getting to talk about business so that's how I've gotten here I had a little detour into Middle Market companies running them but now I'm back working with others so you work with Professional Service firms again like to turn yes what do you do for them specifically they come to you what is it that you help them with so most people in Professional Services they provide expertise that's their product and they believe that if I show you how smart I am you will hire me the problem is and then you and I were discussing this before we jumped into the podcast we talked about differentiation and what these folks don't realize is very often they're not differentiated at all in the mind of a potential client whether it's commercial real estate whether it's consult Consultants have a better chance than a lot of other people but marketing firms law firms they struggle to look sound and feel different to a potential client and so what I do is help them develop the skill set and the way of engaging a potential client before they actually become a client this isn't lead generation this isn't some fancy buyer's Journey this is how do you talk to somebody in a way that they discovered you're the right solution for them in short I help them learn how to actually sell because it's a different skill set than actually performing the law or Consulting sometimes it's own unique thing that they need to add to their talent stack so it's would it be fair to say it's kind of like turning a discovery call into a two-way Discovery call so the client talks to you and you get to learn about them but in doing so by you learning about them and asking the right questions they discover themselves as to why you are the right person to work with and why you stand out is that fair that's fair I I A lot of times what I'll see people do is they'll show up and let's say it's let's say it's law firms an attorney will say here's all these great things about me hear all these cases I've worked on here's where I clerked by the way no one cares where you clerked because most Americans can't name all nine Supreme Court Justices and so you're providing them a bit of information that's irrelevant to them they just know it's supposed to be important and they do a lot of presenting and a lot of pushing rather than helping this person find the answer they try to tell the answer and they actually go in with a lack of curiosity about the other person's situation and you would probably have some insight into this I think people feel that when you're not really curious about what's going on there I think I think immediately the the orientation that we have whenever we're looking for help is obviously we do want someone who knows what they're talking about but we might need somebody who sees us who hears us who's there for us because right there's no person I've met who goes to a service provider and thinks to themselves my problem is the exact same as everybody else we always think Adam you've worked with a lot of people but you haven't worked with me I know you've helped people solve a lot of problems but not my problem because again we're we're I suppose as human beings We Believe well if it was that easy I would have figured it out right I should have figured this out so I need you to know all the nuances and all the information so that you can help me with your expertise so instead of them wasting a lot of time I suppose talking about how great they are which is really whether they do it directly or indirectly the subtext or the text is I'm really great I'm the best lawyer I'm the best attorney really what you're saying is turning it around and asking questions and showing that curiosity is actually more more powerful it is because I have a deeply held belief that people in almost any scenario want to be they want to be understood and they want to be heard no one's running people are running around trying to get their needs met in so many different ways and when you finally find someone who listens to you and shows an interest it's incredibly powerful I think uh tally Rand who I think he was England's foreign minister was known as a great conversationalist but he was known for just asking phenomenal questions and being really interested in people this is going to be the breakdown of my classical knowledge I'm going to run its course right there but if I sit I've hired attorneys and I've heard them talk all about their background rarely did they ask a lot of questions about really what I was trying to do what I was concerned about how I was hoping they could help if they would ask those types of questions I would immediately open up and I just assume an attorney is a good one right now people listening to this and they say well that's an ignorant statement but a lot of times we go to professionals people come to you you've been an author or co-author of nine books you've got letters behind your name they assume you know what you're talking about what they are looking for in that first conversation is do I trust him do I like him do I feel a connection and they can probably not even like you you just need to be likable and somebody they feel connected with and then I think the second thing that needs to happen in that conversation is they need to discover something right and you facilitate that you've done it with me but what I try to do when I'm working I'm talking to a client is help them discover something that they're not gonna find on their own because a lot of times they're not asking those questions it takes someone from the outside asking a simple question here's an example one of the things that I teach clients to do when they're selling is to ask a series of questions around what if this doesn't work out what if it does right whatever someone's trying to do a lot of people have rarely voiced potential outcomes and worked through the consequences of something working or something not if they do if they take the time and someone's willing to step them through it by asking the questions not telling them a light bulb goes off and they actually start to Envision that and they connect with that emotionally but they also will put numbers to it what they could gain what they could lose what they stand to rest and at that point it starts to shift from I'm exploring this to I need to do something so that's part of the discovery that you and I talked about for sure and I think one of the things that I think I was mentioning to you as well is that when we look at the questions you ask if you stop and you ask yourself what's the purpose of the question what will happen if you do this or right what is the upside of doing this what's the downside of doing this all of these questions are inviting the person into a conversation as you guys mentioned they presuppose you know what you're talking about because right again there is a case of thou do protest too much or that who talk about how great fellow are too much right sorry for butchering the classic no I love it I love Shakespeare but the the key or the idea here is that instead of you talking about look how great I am this and that and the other sometimes whenever I hear people do that even in speakers so as a speaker whatever I go to conferences I do keynote speeches you have other speakers and sometimes I'll be fair more men do this than women but you have speakers that stand up there and they let you know in the first few minutes of all the things that they do and if I'm ever doing that if for whatever reason I'm trying to let people know look I know what I'm talking about I got credentials they say I don't get an intro you're not going to do it right there's a phrase that they use which is and I've heard a few people say it but it's like I don't say these things to impress you I say they're too impress upon you and all this sort of stuff I listen to that I'm like no right you say it to impress me and so if I ever do use that I I rarely do but if I ever do it I say I do say this to impress you I want you to be impressed because if you're impressed maybe you might open yourself up to the ideas that I have to share today and it's like honesty it's that authenticity it's that like there is no here I'm gonna tell you exactly as I see it and the other way of doing that is to be like let's not even talk about that I'm going to ask you questions but I'm not going to ask you questions like I don't know what I'm talking about I'm asking right pointed questions about what matters to you about what the future holds for you and I'm getting I'm trying to trigger in your mind this future scenario so I'm effectively helping you make better decisions is that right appraisal that is and I want to come back to what you'd said a minute ago in terms of I want to impress you let's say we're dealing with an attorney or a Management Consultant from one of the big three Mackenzie Boehner BCG and I don't know a ton about how they sell but if you're sitting down with those three one of those three major consulting firms or you're sitting down with an attorney you already assign them a certain level of competence what they need to do in that interaction is helped you discover they're the right choice but the problem is it's usually done through blunt force trauma let me tell you let me show you I'm going to push this on you look at all the great things we've done and when we start to brag this has been my experience and what I've observed over 15 years and working clients it actually creates a wall and for most people one it doesn't feel natural two it starts to alienate when it's like we're the right solution I don't want to be pushing that I'm right solution I want them kind of saying I think you might be able to help me to which I might just respond well do you want my help it doesn't need to be any more forced than that and you see this like I've done a lot of work in Enterprise selling the sales people there will talk a lot about overcoming objections overcoming objections overcoming objections it's because the case was never Built Well in the first place and so now later they're chasing it now the one thing that I've learned to do and I might need your help on putting the right framework around this after our podcast here is tell stories in a way that demonstrate expertise without being alienating so just in response to that like just while I'm thinking of it first of all if you look at Donald Miller's story brand right oh yeah is the marketing approach the story great stuff and in it one of the elements is the guide so you have a character character who has an objective and blah blah blah and there's ups and downs and stakes and whatnot but the guide is a character and in the guide part of it Donald Miller always says you need to have two things as a guide Authority and empathy and so I guess what I'm hearing you say is that everyone's great at the authority all you need to do is give a case study where you were a genius attorney and you did this and that and the other that gives you the authority but the missing piece there is empathy it's this sense that you give to people where you go I get you I understand you if you take Chris Voss in his book never split the difference before FBI negotiator he talks about tactical empathy making the other person feeling like you've got Authority but you also understand where they're coming from if you look at chaldini he talks about likability and similarity and even the recent principle Unity so in all of these things to me they're all saying something very similar when it comes to positioning yourself in terms of empathy there's two real ways I think that people do this so one is you try to identify a commonality that the main character in your story has with whoever it is that you're talking to so that they usually connect by hearing the story they go oh I'm in that place too I can relate to the character and the other thing is to make the main character in a story have a certain goal an objection an objective a outcome that they want to pursue and something's stopping them from getting it which pretty much defines most stories because intuitively when we look at the world we feel like we're The Underdogs we all know what it's like to want something and not to be able to get it and so when you have a clear outcome so when you share a story I believe that the empathy and that I suppose curiosity in a story form comes by you relating to whatever you know is true for the other person so I'd argue you can tell certain stories that you know will resonate just for most people in that person's space but if you're doing those query questions that you ask and you talk about these and you ask them questions you could even in the story say similar to yourself they were feeling this and this and this I think so and here's what we do people know they need to have empathy and this is this interesting a client of mine yesterday had to have a very strong conversation with one of her direct reports and this is a law firm and she said wanting to help people does not equal empathy that your desire to be youthful or to serve does not equal empathy they still need to feel it and a lot of people what they'll do they mistake prying in a very the word's not desperate but almost like a lunging way to connect that they really just make it all about themselves and what did I say people want to be heard and understood I think one of your gifts I've seen you do this is when you interact you can tell a story but you're deeply interested in the other person and they feel that so I see people say they I see people who sell try to talk about their weekend and their interests and all of these things desperately looking for connection when what they really need to do is just show interest now I do want to Circle back to this but one of the ways that I know how to tell a story in one of the Frameworks I give is tell third party stories and because what happens when we describe the types of challenges other people have had that are similar to them the potential client will actually insert themselves into that story in the more specific the story even if it's vastly different they will actually kind of gloss over those and look for the similarities and connect and start to open up and this is one of the ways that professional service providers or anyone selling anything can demonstrate expertise is they don't even have to tell a fascinating case study but what they can do and again you're somebody who does this really well you've got the Jedi Mind Tricks thing is they will say you know let me tell you about some of the things that this person was dealing with and you might pull some ideas from it they were dealing with this this and this and they started asking these questions and these are questions you may want to be asking in your scenario these things happened and they were asking these questions now I'm not Christopher Nolan but there's a little bit of inception that happens there I've actually opened a doorway for these people to start thinking about the questions I want them to think about that are similar to their business case I've demonstrated expertise without having to push I just told a story I invited us into a conversation that's going to be about things that are deeply important to them and I've done it without pushing and now they feel connected because I've dealt with people like them so that's my too long don't read back of the napkin way to do it love it love it thank you so much for sharing that Adam that's great stuff and I couldn't agree more I think your approach is absolutely marvelous and I'm not surprised it gets great results let's do the quick fire round if that's okay yeah let's do it so favorite movie Braveheart love it they may take our lives but they'll never have off right up that's right author favorite author William Faulkner favorite book oh a man's search for meaning by Victor Frankel fantastic favorite artist like musical artist no no no painter or a sculptor or something oh I mean how do you beat Michelangelo's work like the David yeah my favorite musician currently it is Chris Stapleton okay favorite philosopher oh you know I've not spent enough time thinking about this I'm gonna be somewhere between Seneca Aristotle and Aquinas it's a good Trio right there mate good Trio yeah yeah favorite TV series oh gosh look I'm in Texas it was Friday night lights for a long time I still get choked up if I go back and watch it if you could have any superpower oh flight you know I don't think we think about how cold that might be but you get up too far up but I would love to fly it's like yeah well that works Ideal Time Travel you go to anywhere in the past present or future where would you go oh I don't want to go to the future I would love to go to the path I would love to I'd love to find out if Shakespeare was one person or more than one person and see who he was it's just so conspiracy huh yeah alternative location if you could live anywhere else besides the greatest country in America where would you live you know I might live on a little village in Italy I really would have a little farm I have no idea how hard that would be but it sounds great food would be great if you could do any other career besides what you're doing oh God I would just write novels and not deal with just write Farm raise my kids scratch out a living the world yeah I get you I get you and then lastly one piece of advice if you were to put a piece of advice for the world on a billboard what would you say to the world to just a message that exists forever for the world you know I need to give you some credit for this and I would probably iterate through this but we have to live our lives I don't get to live Owen's life I don't get to live Jay-Z's life I don't love my kids lives I live my life with my gifts my set of options and those aren't limiting but the more we Embrace that the better off we're going to be you've worked with me and helped me a little bit on looking at my situation and rethinking it rather than pining for some alternative or needing to Envision it it's create it and so look this is our life and these are the things we need to live without comparing because it's the thief of joy love it thank you very much Adam for this where can people learn more about you where can they go they can follow me on LinkedIn I'm Adam P Boyd and they can go to my website which may or may not be a work in progress depending on when you find it that's the Northwood grp. com the northwoodgroup.
com was taken so we got grp. com so the northwoodgrp.
