Jaimie Alexander On Using Stoicism To Get Through The Darkest Times | Daily Stoic Podcast

Six weeks ago, I found myself in a kind of a heavy depression. And so I thought, I don't feel like I have a purpose. My history had been, well, let's go find it outside somewhere. And then I thought like, what if I start doing the stuff that terrifies me? >> It can be hard to go back and learn things that like we should be good at. >> The amount of effort it [music] must have taken for me to hide this from Everybody. >> Wait, so what happened? >> I had an incident back in 2018. I

am living on borrowed time. Well, I think when people hear that, it's like it's not good or bad. It just is. And then you get to decide whether it was positive or negative. >> I had a white light moment. I heard a voice and it said, "Do you want to stay or do you want to go?" >> That's actually when the work starts. >> I say these things out loud and I think I'm talking about [music] someone else. And I'm like, "No, that's me. That was me." >> You're disassociated from what's happening outside and what's

happening inside. >> I remember thinking, "Why have I worried every [music] single day of my life? What am I doing? So, wait, you just learned how to swim? >> I did. >> Like, you didn't know your whole life or you just weren't good at it? >> I could tread water, but my mother didn't know how to swim, so I never learned. And I was kind of, you know, not she didn't teach me to be afraid of the water. It's just I grew up being afraid of it. And so, >> if you don't know how to

swim, you're going to be a little afraid. >> Well, I'm literally like Bruce Willis in Unbreakable. like I the way water was Was I should say not is but was my Achilles but now yeah now I I've learned I I the journey of how I got to learn is pretty interesting >> tell me >> well the thing is you know about six weeks ago I found myself in a kind of a heavy depression and I've gone in and out of that most of my life I didn't know what to call it obviously but now [clears

throat] you know I've been sober for almost eight years and I just I've Gotten to know myself quite well and >> sure >> and so I thought what what is what is this like why is this happening and I thought you know I don't feel useful that's why I don't feel like I have a purpose and so my history had been well let's go find it outside somewhere outside of myself let's let's go do this and be the best at that and >> do this crazy thing and everybody expects you to do you know these

crazy Physical stunts and >> and then I thought like what if I do I start doing the stuff that terrifies me >> and and look this isn't like jumping off a building I've done that this isn't that. It's more just like people have fun doing this and yet I'm scared of it. So, I want to get past it all. What's it all about? >> And so, I asked a friend of mine uh who's done like some Iron Man competitions and triathlons. I said, >> "If I found a pool in New York, uh would you teach

me like once a week?" >> Yeah. >> And he said, "Yeah." And I was like, "Oh gosh, now now I have an accountability partner." And so I went to my friend's pool who she was so lovely to introduce me to her doorman and all this stuff and they let me swim there. Mind you, it's a 40 foot pool. It's not it's not very long. So this is like perfect for somebody like me to learn. And it turns Out >> I'm actually physically built like a swimmer and I'm really good at it compared to what I

thought. And and I started to have so much fun right away because it wasn't about winning. It wasn't about being great at it or anything. It was just like, hey, maybe this is one of those things I could use to help somebody else. And so my goal is to eventually, maybe 6 months to a year from now, compete for charity. >> Oh. >> So that is the goal that I've set for myself. >> It can be hard to go back and learn things that like you should be good at. Yes. >> Do you know what

I mean? Like as an adult, we like if you're like, "Hey, I want to figure out theoretical physics." You know, you know, people are like, "Oh, okay. that I'm sure that's hard, but it's hard when you're like if I Don't know if you don't know how to ride a bike or you don't know how to swim or to go back and be a beginner at something that like most of the beginners at are children. Like you think about someone who who's like maybe they didn't learn to read or they're like they really struggled in school

to then go back and be like, "Oh, do I have to do like fifth grade math?" >> That's hard to do. >> Yeah. It's a It's a big hit to the ego. And And what I've learned about myself is those big hits to my ego are great. >> Sure. >> They're good for me. >> Yeah. To be bad at something is good. It's humbling and kind of immersive to go do a thing for not not just, hey, I'm bad at it. That's why I don't do it. But to do it because you're bad at it,

>> right? But also like it it helps me get rid of my own fear like the this this rumination that I always have. You're Not good enough, you're not this, you're not that. It's like okay, you know what? Like f you because like I I've had enough of that in my life and I just thought this is my life, you know, like I I am living on borrowed time. >> Um if life were fair, I would be dead. I wouldn't be here. Um, I had an incident back in 2018 where I was given a choice

like do you want to stay or do you want to go? And >> what happened? >> I Well, you really want to know? Sure. >> Um, so I had been working on a series that was very physically demanding for a while and I had gotten into the habit of drinking myself to sleep. I was just always in pain. I, you know, dislocated shoulder, broken nose, like you name it. Like I I according to my orthopedic surgeon who happens to be the head of NYU sports medicine, I've had more injuries than a pro footballer. And he

he has a good sense of humor, but he Wasn't joking. So I was like, >> no, I was reading about it. It seems like I think people think acting must be sort of nice and cushy, but you seem like you get hurt a lot. >> Me specifically. Yeah. I don't know what that says about me. I think I'm a little bit of a daredevil. Uh, but you know, there was people pleasing in that because I was like, if I do the stunt, then we get to go home early, which means my entire crew gets to

go see Their families. >> And that was something I took very personally. Like, I took responsibility for everybody's well-being on my set, which to a degree is is a is nice. It's kind of to respect other people's time. So, um, >> but there, so you're saying there were things where you were like you you didn't feel good about it or you felt like it wasn't it wasn't being done the right way or you didn't maybe Understand, but you didn't want to kind of like we're talking about the swimming, you don't want to be like, I

need more instruction or I let's do it a different way cuz that would be inconvenient. >> Yes, I was always worried about being an inconvenience to people. But, um, that said, I I do I am quite skilled at a lot of the stunt work I was doing. Um, I'm currently not doing any right now. Not on purpose anyway. Uh, but I was a high School wrestler. I, you know, I had a big background in sports and >> and I and I knew how to do the things I was doing. It's just when you do too

much of something for too long, it's too much. >> And your body can't at some point is going to tell you stop or we're going to make you stop, right? >> And that's what happened to me. And you know, I wouldn't take uh it was so I remember this so vividly like I would I Dislocated my shoulder and it went right back in. I' I've literally been so lucky with some of the injuries I've had. And I just looked at it and I was like, "Dang it, I'm right-handed." Like, "How am I going to do

this fight sequence?" And same thing when I broke my nose. I went to the hospital, got the CT scan, and came back to set and started sword fighting again with like a kind of a screwed up face. It's just like wouldn't quit. Like I was like, "No, you know, I'm responsible for this." And so I just remember that, you know, even though I had all this swelling and I had pain, I wouldn't even take Advil or Tylenol, >> but I would drink an entire bottle of bourbon >> at night to fall asleep. >> Yeah. >>

So my wiring had gotten so screwed up over my life. It was my magic potion. It was my best friend, you know? I I could do anything as long as I had a little a Little of that in my system or a lot. Nobody around me knew. I I was so high functioning in that sense. I mean, the amount of effort it must have taken for me to hide this from everybody. No wonder I had an organ explode. >> Yeah. >> You know, like what happened? >> So, back to that. I'll back up a little

bit. So, it was kind of like 4 days in the making. This like beginning of the End is kind of how I refer to it. I had met this guy, really nice guy who happened to be sober and I and I just thought, oh, like, okay, cool for I don't know, like he doesn't drink, you know? But I remember when I met him on our first date, I thought to myself, I wish I could do that. Like I had a thought and I was about seven or eight measuring shots full of bourbon before I even

got there and proceeded to order another double bourbon while he ordered I think an Arnold Palmer. >> And he was so relaxed and comfortable with himself and I felt like I was going to explode out of my skin. I just felt so weird, you know. And so we we had that date and I and I just remember it was like click something something. is like I started hearing a whisper of like >> like that that that you could be a person. >> Yeah. I could live. I could I could and I would be okay. And

and so we stayed in Touch a little bit. I had to work a lot. So I didn't see him for a while. And then one Saturday he was like, "Hey, um do you want to come with me? Little drive upstate. I'm looking at properties." He's like, "Don't take this weirdly, you know." He's like, "I'm not asking to like move in with you or anything." He's like, "I just um that's what my weekend's going to entail and I'd like to see you." And so I said, "Sure, like a day trip. That's fun." And The night before

I had gotten obliterated to fall asleep cuz I knew I had to be up early to get in his car to go upstate. So I get in the car and he gives me this like really heavy >> like green smoothie full of kale and all this other stuff. And I was like, "Oh, thanks." I was like, "If I drink half of this, I'm going to literally >> ruin your car." So we go upstate and a snowstorm that was predicted to be very mild end up being like a blizzard. And We got stuck. And at the

time, you know, he had this wonderful three-legged German Shepherd that I loved and and she had survived cancer. And so he's like, "Look, I I really can't try to drive back down right now." He's like, "If you're comfortable," he's like, "I'd really like to just rent a place and stay the night." And he's like, "With more than one bedroom. Like, it's not, you know, I'm not trying to, >> you know, make a pass and anything." And So I was like, "Oh, sure." Not thinking how hard it was going to be for me to not drink.

Right. So, I get it. >> Your your sort of secret life is is intersecting with your >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I didn't bring a flask and I always had a flask. I mean, I I I say these things out loud and I think I'm talking about someone else and I'm like, "No, that's me. That was me." So, >> get in the car, uh, we go upstate, the blizzard hits, we rent an Airbnb, I realize very quickly that there's no alcohol in there. >> Yeah. >> I am like the most good. If somebody like

mischarges me on a grocery bill, even 10 cents, I go back to the grocery store and give them the dime. I can't I can't not do that. And I've always been that way. So, the thought that I would have stolen someone else's alcohol so That I could feel better really did not make me feel very good about myself. >> Um, I tore that place apart. I looked everywhere while trying to hide from him that I was like losing my [ __ ] because he didn't know that I had this battle. I didn't really even know.

>> Were you going would you go through literal withdrawals if you didn't do it or you were just like, "No, this is like how I sort of deal with anxiety and st like I'm just wondering how bad it was." I at the time did not know if I would because I had never tried, >> right? >> So I I mean there were times where, you know, over the years I'd train for something and I would stop drinking for a while, but I think that was well before I crossed the line into alcoholism. >> So I

was very shaky. So I we went to bed, a lot of crazy stuff happened. The power went out and I was like, I am in Literal hell. And he was like, hey, do you want maybe I could do some raiki or do you want to meditate with me? And I was like, where's the gun? Like you know, I just want to like turn my brain off. >> And we ended up doing some raiki. did some raiki and I was like, "Oh, this is quite nice." You know, but I was like, "Oh, sober people." Um, and

then, uh, the next day, weather cleared up, you know, ended up very carefully driving Back down to Brooklyn where I lived, went in my apartment, um, went to pour a drink and I I couldn't drink it. It It was the most bizarre. Like, I would drink even if I had pneumonia. That's a true story. I had pneumonia and I drank anyway. Uh when I hurt my spine back in 2012, I there was a co-star that ended up bringing small bottles of alcohol into the hospital. I mean, this is not new. This is not new for

me. >> I didn't know all this until I did the Work in a 12step program. But so I couldn't drink it. And I was like, you got to go to bed. It's late. You have to be up at 4:00 a.m. for work. Just just go to bed, you know? And I left it open. I mean, I left the giant bourbon straight >> no ice um on the counter. And I I cuz I just thought, well, I'll drink it tomorrow or something. I go to bed. I wake up, make my coffee, go to work, and I

am so shaky. I don't feel good. And I Just think, you didn't sleep, you know, you didn't sleep enough. And I started eating so much junk. I mean, you would have been like, are you insane? Like Nutella covered waffles. I think I even got the waffle truck to come to work. I had ice cream and all these things that I was like, I'm going to throw up if I keep doing this cuz I have some stunts I have to do. But I couldn't not have it. And I just kept getting shakier and shakier. And that

night I went home and Tried to train. And my trainer was like, "Stop." She's like, "You you don't look okay. You're losing your balance. You're wide as a ghost." She's like, "Maybe you just need to go to bed." You know, um, again, unaware of my alcoholism. And so I was like, "Oh, all right, cool." You know, oops. And I looked in the mirror and I did look kind of strange, but that wasn't weird for back then because again, my body was being torn apart by that show. You know, I was having I had A struggle

with a lot of chemical burns on my skin from the fake tattoos. There's a lot of things that maybe one day very respectfully I will talk about, but right now I I don't feel is is the time for that. But yeah, I had a lot of stuff going on. So when I look in the mirror and I'm black under my eyes and I'm white as a ghost, that's that's not that crazy, you know? >> Well, part of it is just it's a you're disassociated from what's happening Outside and what's happening inside. That's kind of the

whole point is like you can get to a place where you just don't have to feel stuff or think about stuff in the sense that it's like working. That's what it's doing is that's the technology of it is you don't have to do that stuff. >> Yeah. Very effective. Yeah. Very effective. You know, so I I stopped the workout, you know, I went back to the bourbon that was sitting on the counter. I remember chucking it out cuz it wasn't fresh and like pouring another one and it literally felt like something was pulling the glass

out of my hand. It was the weirdest. >> It's It actually scared me. Like it's like I could feel something being like do not drink this. And I was like again not my normal. Like I was like >> that was abnormal. >> Now that's three days without this and I'm feeling very shaky and I'm kind of >> so dizzy that I can't, you know, it it was not good. So I just said just just go to bed. Just go to bed. There's something in me that was like just go to bed. And I went to

sleep. Could not sleep that night. I was awake all night. Um I sleep with the covers like up to my chin like a little like a little tiny little you know >> cat or something. And and I did I just pulled them up and I remember thinking like please please please I need to fall Asleep. I need to fall asleep. There was just something in me that was like do not go back in the living room to the bar cart and get that stuff. Don't do it. And I went to sleep somehow. And I woke

up and I felt better. I don't I wonder if it was like my soul felt better like I was doing something that you know I was like I I don't think I knew that I was doing maybe the hardest thing I've ever done. >> Yeah. >> But I had a really weird stomach ache and I just thought, "Oh, you ate all that crap yesterday. You can't do that today." you know, again, really ignoring like, hey, you know, you you're not really one to get stomach aches, >> right? >> Um, but I just thought, well, yeah,

that makes sense. I ate a bunch of crap and, you know, so I go to work and uh we're filming in Manhattan and the stomach ache just keeps getting Worse. And I and I never even took Tums and I was like, well, then it'll work, you know, and so I asked the nurse, I'm like, "Hey, can I have some Tums?" And like, "What's the amount you can have safely?" I was like, "Can I chew like nine of these?" And I had it. It did not make one difference. So, she, you know, thought maybe it was

trapped air. I don't know. You know, she was so sweet. And again, my pain tolerance >> was incredibly high at that point Because half of it was shut off. >> When you're not taking care of yourself, so you always feel shitty. So, what is what is >> actually something to be alarmed by, >> right? I couldn't tell the difference. And and I and so it started getting worse and she was pushing on my stomach and and it got to the point where I was like, I can't stand up straight. And I had this giant machine

gun. I'm running up the stairs in this scene and actually A paparazzi got photos of that day and I I I created a little substack recently and I put them up there so people could see sort of the reality of the situation >> and I did not look good and that was like full-on makeup and everything, right? So I was like >> got to my trailer midday. Now, I didn't I think also I didn't really tell everybody like just how bad it was hurting because this was going to be the first half day of work

I had ever had on The show and I was about to go meet the new guy who I really liked and we were going to go hear a lecture. So, I was very excited. I was like, I have a half day. >> And plus, you have this habit of not You've told yourself you're the kind of person that doesn't inconvenience people with your stuff. >> Yes. Yeah. >> And I'm the tough one, right? I'm this like tough. All my characters I've ever Played have had this like grit about them and this toughness. And I just

think I was >> meshing myself into these characters thinking, well, >> if they can do it, I can do it, you know, which is crazy. Um, especially in the Marvel world. So, I I started it started to get worse. I went to my trailer for lunch. I was supposed to be wrapped by then, but I wasn't. So, I was like, "Okay, no problem." You know, and It got to the point where I like I could not stand. I fully was bent over. And they called a doctor to the set. I and the doctor said, "Do

you have ovarian cyst?" Like what's And I was like, >> "Did you ask for the doctor?" They they had to >> I asked um >> I'm just saying cuz that's that's like not a small thing. >> It's not a small thing. And it's interesting that like visibly, you know, Looking back and talking to some of the folks I still know from that job, they were like, "You looked horrible." And I thought, >> interesting that no one decided, hey, maybe she needs a doctor, >> right? >> You know, it was like, hey, no, she >> Nobody

wants to force a doctor on. That's why you have to be an advocate for yourself because like it it feels like it's not my place to do this thing For you. >> There's that and also if we have to shut down that cost Warner Brothers x amount of money and that and and I get it. That's a really shitty place for a lot of producers to be in because >> they're just like how can we best handle this where everybody's okay, you know? And and I was so strong. I mean I was literally you know

I told you I dislocated shoulder, put it in a sling and continue to do a knife fight in the Back of a van one day. I mean, it's just like chaos, right? So, they were really also responding to how I normally was, right? >> Um, so a doctor comes, asks about ovarian cyst. I'm think because now the pain had gone to my lower right side and I was like, I'm pretty sure I would know if I had one of those. So, I said, "No, I don't think so." You know, and this at this point I'm

on the floor of my trailer. And the doctor steps out. I Can't remember where he went. Um, he may have went to talk to a producer or something. And and I had my phone like close enough where I started to be like, "Something's wrong. Something's wrong. Something's And I grabbed the phone and I called a producer. I said, "I need I need I need to go to the hospital or something. I need help." >> And coincidentally, my OB/GYN where we were filming, he was like a few streets over. So, they were like, "Let's take Her

there." Because I think the producer thought, "Oh, it's ovarian or something." Because of the doctor. I think there was like a miscommunication. >> I got in there, that guy took one look at me, did an ultrasound. He goes, "Your appendix is rupturing." He's like, "You need to have the driver take you to a hospital right now. An ambulance will take too long." He's like, "If they don't take this out right away, I will come and do it myself." And this guy I've known for a while and I have never seen him look like this. And

I was like, >> "Oh god." You know, I was just like, "Wait, what?" Like I I just like I was like, "No, I have to go back to work." You know, like my brain was just like, "No, no, no, no." Still trying to make it not what it was. And I get to the ER and they put me through a CT scan and they're like, "You are entering sepsis." And I again was like, "What? I don't understand." And meanwhile, I have a Bunch of fake wounds on, right? So they're going and I'm like, "Those aren't

real." you know, and then I'm trying to pull the tattoos that I was wearing for this job off my body because people were taking photos of me in the emergency area, >> right? >> And I felt so awkward cuz again, oh gosh, I can't look weak in front of anybody, right? So, I go through the uh process of of getting prepped for the O. And I had a what a lot of us in recovery like to refer to as a white light moment. I didn't grow up religious. Uh I I didn't really, you know, I

kind of always felt like there was something maybe out there helping me out, but I had lost touch with it for so long. I thought I heard a voice and it said, "Do you want to stay or do you want to go?" And at that time I had been left in this like I don't know where I was. I had a sheet over me and I was I just knew from Like my breast to my knees I was covered in orange dye which I guess is beta dying or something. I don't know. Something sterile to

like so that cut you open. Cut you open. >> Yeah. I just remember being like what is and I had felt so hot on the inside and all of a sudden as soon as I heard the voice I did not feel anything and I was like it's over like I didn't have any pain and this pain I've been told by certain doctors and I can't speak to This cuz I have no children. Um but they say it's worse than child birth and I was like well you might want to ask a few other women that

because I don't know if that's true but it was it was horrible. I mean I did have contractions. It was like and then the organ burst. So it said do you want to stay or do you want to go? And I I my first thought was I remember you. And I was just like and um Like I can get emotional about it now cuz I just knew uh >> Sure. >> I knew that I was I wasn't by myself and I wasn't afraid. Like all that fear I had felt before was just gone. And um

and it felt like that that when I heard that voice like that's my existence. Like that's the real thing. I got this I don't know what this is but that was like oh like you know like I felt like I was home somehow. It's hard to explain It and I heard this voice. It was within myself. I didn't hear it externally. I didn't see anything. I just knew like I just felt it and I um I said I I remember you and then I thought I was right. And I grew up in a very violent

house. I grew up you know what do you mean? Like I was right like I haven't been alone this whole time. like I was right that like that thing that I hoped that there was out there was there and it was such a weird feeling and I and I And then I I I remember thinking why have I worried every single day of my life like what am I doing like what a waste of time you know and I said to it you know I I didn't want it to go away because I felt so

happy and but my theory was this before so I replied to it and I said I think I think I need to stay. I think there's something else I'm supposed to do. And I really felt like that. Like I it was giving me a choice, which was very strange. I mean, if we Consider the concept of free will, I was like, well, case in point, I guess. And I thought, you know what? If you've always been there, like I think you have, you'll be there later, so why should I go now? >> Right? >> And

that was my reasoning behind it. I was like, I'm going to do it better this time. And immediately when I made that choice, it said, then you can never drink again. And I was like, what? Whoa. Like, you know, I didn't even I didn't know that any that had anything to do with anything. And it was like the weight of the world went off my shoulders. And I was like, "Oh, there's a name for it. There's like a name for what I've been doing and what's been screwing up my everything." And like there's a name

for my darkness that I can choose to fix. Like that is within my control. And I was so happy. I mean, I was like deliriously happy. Mind you, I had no medication in my system because they were about to put me under for a very long time. So, I had asked for I was like, "Please like make it stop, you know." >> Um, so I was as sober as I'd ever been. Uh, but I as soon as I said, "Okay, I won't. I promise I will never drink again." All the doctors came in and it

was like time had stood still. The voice was gone and I was so happy. I remember telling them it's going to be okay. And Then I I I had this thought the other day cuz I was like, I'm pretty sure I told them I loved them. Like I loved you. Yeah. Like it was so interesting like >> to to say that to a couple strangers that are busy, you know? I was like, "Stop distracting them." And trying to like hold their hand. I know. I tried to hold this one woman's hand. Um I Yeah, I

remember that one. And so, uh they rushed me into the O and at the same Like when they were lifting me off the gurnie cuz again things started moving very fast like immediately and still couldn't feel anything was starting to feel very delirious and they pulled me from the gurnie to the O table and my IV caught like on a screw or something. I don't know what it was, but it snapped the tube >> and all the blood started to come out of my arm and I felt my arm go like very cold and limp

>> and I still didn't care. I was like, "Oh, uhoh." You know, and then they put me on the O table and that's when the mask went over my face and they were gassing me to knock me out because this has gotten really bad very fast, I guess. >> And I felt myself not able to breathe. And I I literally felt my heart stopping and my lungs stop. And I grabbed I remember I took my right arm and tried to grab the anesthesiologist's throat Which you know I mean I felt like I was I was

going to flatline or something like I was going to die it and it's so funny cuz I did that just to be like no no no you don't need that take it off you know I don't know what I was thinking but that's the last thing I remember >> I woke up feeling cold I felt so happy and so much joy and I remember the doctors having a little meeting with me I think I still had the like hair on or Something cuz I remember being like can I take this off uh vanity Um, and

they said, you know, this is going to be touch and go for a few days. You you could end up being in here for, you know, a week to to months. >> And I was thinking, "Oh, there's a lot of people that are going to be pissed off about that." Um, but I said to them, I said, "No, I'm okay. I'll be okay." >> And my blood tested clean on the second day. No sepsis, which is crazy. Mind You, I was on like a antibiotic like crazy drip every 45 minutes. But they kept me another

3 days cuz they thought this this is not accurate. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And they kept checking and kept checking and then finally they let me go on day five, I got to go home. And I was like, if that's not some sort of confirmation that what I met in that room was real, I don't know what is. Cuz again, like I said, if if life were fair, if like 2 Plus 2 equals four on paper when it comes to life and grace, I would be dead. There's just no way that somebody like me could

have survived that. Like I mean, it was literally I feel like I was given a choice. And I had told the doctor eventually, I think on like day three, that I think I had a drinking problem. And she was very serious. She goes, "When did you last drink?" And I said, "Like 3 or 4 days before I got here," she's like, "I want you to know Something." She's like, "You are very lucky." She was actually really kind of mean in a good way, like tough love. And she said, "You're very lucky." She's like, "If you

had drank one or two days before this, you would be dead." And she's like, "So if you need help, you let me know." And she's like, "I'm going to give you some literature." And I was just like, "Okay." Like I I I mean, I was so scared into being sober. I may have accidentally got sober. Like I Didn't do it on purpose and then I was like now I have to do it on purpose. >> The ideal scenario would be all this happens and then you just never felt a desire to drink ever again. >>

Yeah, that would have been great. >> But that's probably not how it went, right? Probably that's actually when the work starts is coming out of the hospital. >> Yeah. The first thing is taking advantage of a moment of grace. >> When you have something, it's quiet usually. Like I love that quote, confidence is silent, insecurities are loud. >> I feel that anytime >> I need to get in touch with my inner voice, it's it's quiet. >> It makes me I have to be still to hear it. A lot >> you don't hear voices while you're

doing 30 other things. You're very busy. >> You might feel something and then it's Your choice whether or not you want to consciously, you know, connect with it. But I had to have the courage to ask for help. And I think whatever's out there, higher power, whatever you want to call it, knew that I wasn't going to be able to do it by myself. And it's like, you know what? We're going to wake your ass up because you are so headstrong. You're so I've looked after everybody in my life my entire life. I'm I'm financially

responsible for some other people in my Family. I I've always been the tough person. I you know at a very young age ended up getting my mom to divorce her second husband who was very abusive. Like I mean I just am like doing things that kids don't normally do. >> So for me to ask somebody for help was that equaled failure to me. And this was like you don't have another choice. You can't even walk. So, it's like you're going to once you're out of the wheelchair, you need to ask for help. And I asked

that guy I was dating. I said, "I have I think I have a I know I have a problem." And he thought, "Wait, what?" Like, he he didn't see it. And then he thought, "I think you're just like sensitive. You went through a lot." And I was like, "No, let me tell you about how I used to drink." And I as I said it out loud, it was like, "Okay, you're going to have to say goodbye to your best friend." And a part of you is dead. And good for you, But also this is going

to be the worst thing you've ever been through. >> I imagine the higher power part of the 12step program was easier for you given the whatever the mysterious force pushing you away from drinking when it would have killed you. And then of course the the question in the hospital. >> Yes. You you would think so. The further I got from that like incident in the hospital, the more I was like, you know what, this sucks. Like this is so hard. You know, like I say to a lot of people, I I say, you know, there's

not one person on earth that doesn't want to shut off life for a few minutes. Life is hard. It is what it is. But if you didn't have adversity in your life, you would not have an opportunity to show up. And that's where stoicism came in. >> When did you find stoicism? >> I found it through sobriety. >> Interesting. >> Now, I'm talking about the textbook Version of stoicism. I had always operated and this is what I learned about myself through reading, you know, meditations. Marcus Aurelius, Epictitus I'm a huge fan of. They couldn't have

been more different in the way they lived their lives or what life had presented them, but they had the same type philosophy. Yes, >> it's really interesting, right? So, we are not our outside situations. We are how we choose to respond to our outside Situations. And when I >> I used to think that way a lot and I used to kind of daydream sometimes. I get teased about it and then I realized this is one of the things that's going to keep me sober. >> Yeah. >> Because this is I know this to be true.

like I have that knowing whether I'm right or wrong. I know for myself this types of, you know, this type of philosophy is going to help me in times Where I cannot see straight and in times where I'm having a really rough time because, you know, I look at that situation that happened to me in the hospital. Boy, going into the hospital, I was like, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me ever. And it's going to affect a lot of people I work with. They're going to be jobless. They're going to be,

you know, and I was like, whatever. I get out and I'm almost eight years sober now, God willing. And I think that was by far the best thing that has ever happened to me. So I learned a lot from that. So this is this ties into a higher power thing is like I really don't know what's good >> or bad. And I'm I'm holding up air quotes here because I really don't. >> Yes. >> You know, something can be, you know, we're not dumb. We can realize when we're like, oh, you know, like I broke

my shoulder. That freaking hurts. That That really sucks. But that could lead to something that, you know, really wonderful. And this has put me stoicism and my sobriety and the way my life has gone over the last few years which is not like I thought it would kind of in I'm not even going to say in the worst way cuz I don't believe that now. I'm now in a place where I can be I think a lot more useful to a lot more people. >> Well, I think when people hear that it's like it's not

good or bad. You go to This sort of moral place. It's it's more like it's not positive or negative. It just is. And then you get to decide. And by the way, time will tell. Yes. >> Whether it was positive or negative. >> Yeah. Just show up. >> Just show up. Put one foot in front of the other and be curious. That's something that's helped me a lot when I fall into judgment of anyone other than myself. >> Yeah. >> Right. I go, "No, no, no. Wait a second. I'm actually going to be curious. I

want to see how this plays out. I want to see how it plays out to lose my home and to lose most of my possessions. And I want to see how it plays out that, you know, I can't seem to get an acting job for the last however long, right?" Like I'm curious actually. Yeah. Like I was I had resentments there and I was like no actually this is like this is something I is out of my control. I do what I can >> and the chips are going to fall how they fall. It's how

I respond to what's going on here. >> And I thought you know what I have pigeoned myself into this like little narrow lane over here going you know you're you're a super poor kid from Texas that was a high school wrestler that like never had a date in her life. Like just was like awkward. um horrible home life, lots of sexual abuse, lots of just the Crap, right? >> Yeah. >> And I I list those things too when I talk to newcomers, um people that are newly sober because I say that's not why I'm an

alcoholic. I know a lot of people that went through a lot worse than they they are an alcoholic. So I said that was my excuse. >> And I was like that is me not taking accountability for who I am right now. And there's a quote that I actually have Tattooed on my body because I thought it was cool back in the day. I think it still is. Um but it's I'm not what happened to me. and what I choose to become, which is a Carl Young quote. And for me, that's that is that is it.

That is it. So, I looked at my life and I said, "Now, you you're trying to do this acting thing still. Were you that happy when you were doing it?" And the answer is like, "Yeah, sometimes." I mean, Thor was cool. I got to wear a cape and, you Know, had a sword and all kinds of fun stuff. There were a lot of things that I loved about being an actress and and maybe I will continue to do it. I really don't know. >> Yeah. But the freedom [sighs] of letting go of the mask that

I have not intentionally created but that I notice and I'm aware of that I've created. Holy [ __ ] That kind of freedom of just like so what? >> Yeah. >> Like I can live on two I there's a spectrum of life, right? I am literally on both far ends of the spectrum. I live in a studio apartment, very little possessions in luckily though Manhattan. So that's bougie is in in of itself. But like I went from having many more material things, right, >> to not a lot now. I'm the happiest I've ever been. >>

I also just recently went to an event as Susan Rockefeller's guest and it was an Event honoring Sophia Copela. Chanel sponsored it and I had a moment where I stood on that red carpet. People asking me for autographs and I thought, [laughter] >> you know, I just laughed and I was like, >> got it. I can be anything I want. I can do anything I want. I can You can feel more than one thing at a time. Anything is possible. Be curious. >> Interesting. >> Open your tunnel vision. Look at it all From a every

perspective that you can. I want to know what I can know to make me the most useful for someone else. And the thing about fear that I've learned because I I had a I experienced a really traumatic flight in 2012. And and now it didn't stop me from hanging outside of a chopper on blind spots. So that talk about screws being loose. But I was nervous to fly here yesterday cuz I hadn't flown in a while. >> Yeah. And I thought, 'When have you ever Been absent of fear? And I went through the obvious, like,

oh, when, you know, I'm in a, you know, a room with other alcoholics. Then I said, 'No, you know, I'm never afraid when I'm being useful. >> And I'm never afraid when I'm being of service. Like, I actually don't because I'm not thinking about myself when I'm being useful or being of service. I'm not up here. So, I got on that plane. I said, I'm going to be as useful as possible. If somebody needs help putting Up a bag, I'm going to do it. If somebody wants to chat, I'll do it. If somebody wants me

to I was cleaning up [ __ ] on the plane. I was talking I had the best time. >> Sure. >> Gets you out of your head. >> Oh my god. Yeah. And then I get in the taxi here in Austin and I meet a fella that's from Morocco and I had spent time in Morocco and we were talking about Harsha which is this great bread. And Then I go into my hotel and there's this wonderful waiter that I sat and chatted with named Josh who's working to be a therapist who told me about Barton

Springs which I'm going to go swim hopefully not drown. And um and I thought none of this is possible if I am in a state of fear. >> Right. So already I use that as an example of look how open and big your life just got in 24 hours. >> Well, it's interesting the the curiosity Thing because like artistically we understand that stuff has to happen to move the movie or the TV show or the book forward. I think it was the Daly Lama. Someone asked the Daly Lama like about you know why is there

evil? Why is there why are all these things why do they exist in the world? And he said to thicken the plot. M >> and you go, "Oh yeah, like if it was simple, if nothing happened, if it always went the way we wanted it to go, It would be incredibly boring." And also all the good stuff that comes from those moments like you need the the crisis in the second act. So then there can be a third act. So we understand that creatively. We we maybe even understand that historically or we see it in

other people's lives and then in our life we're like, "No, no, I got to keep it on track at all times. I can't afford this to happen. I don't want that to happen." And by the way, I'm going to torture Myself with anxiety daytoday as if that somehow keeps it all together >> because if it happens, it'll be the worst thing that ever happens as opposed to a plot device or a way of moving the character not just forward, but like >> to where it has to go, >> right? That is I've always thought of

adversity as being the greatest catalyst. >> Yeah. >> And it's not easy to say when you're in The middle of a [ __ ] storm. Sure. It's just not, you know, >> that doesn't mean it's fun. >> doesn't mean it's fun. But if you're able to sit with yourself and and perhaps there's people that you admire that you take some knowledge from and you look at look at it on a piece of paper. >> Yeah. >> Every time you look at someone's story, I think of Victor Frankle. >> Yeah. >> You look at all these

stories and you go, >> it's the same. >> Yeah. >> It's the same. >> This there has to be adversity in one's life or you will like what's the point of life? >> Yeah. >> You know, perhaps that's the point of the afterlife. We don't have any of that [ __ ] I have no idea. I'd rather think that that I have a purpose here on this planet than just being a random piece of flesh walking around. I just for me it it just makes me happier. So that works for me and it may not

work for everybody. But what I've started doing is uh so again, you know, I'd pigeon myself into being just an actress. >> I decided I'd like to write. So I started writing. Now I didn't call myself a writer because I thought no Because you know who's a writer. And I start listing, you know, all these people, James Fry, all these, you know, whatever. And >> do you know James? >> I know of him. Oh, >> I just listened to his podcast with Rich Roll, who I >> I have to say Rich Roll, I'm a fan.

Like, I've never met him, but that guy has a level of humility and grace that I think is a really great thing for a lot Of men, also women, but men to see, you know, not to mention his physical accomplishments. I mean, part of why I'm swimming and I'm going to compete is just to be like, "Hey, Rich, I did it." you know, I mean, just this is so again, I'm looking at people I respect and I'm going, >> what do they do? >> Like, what in my life kind of could go with that? Like,

where can I draw inspiration? Like, who's to say I can't Write? Me. That's exactly who has been saying it. I I had a tough upbringing where I looking back now realize I just I did not have the strength to apply myself in school other than sports. And the reason I did sports is wrestling specifically is I needed a place for the rage to go. Yeah. >> And I grew very tall at a very young age. So I was, you know, I was taller than every opponent in my weight class. So I won almost every time.

I would Sprawl and do the half and then that was that. I loved the competition side, but I hated hurting somebody. >> It was not my nature. And I learned about myself then. You know, I said, "Okay, I wonder when this is ever going to be useful. Cut to I do a bunch of action stuff." And I was like, "Oh, good. This is good. This is fake hurting people. This is great." But I I look back on my life and say, well, there are a lot of things I wanted to be as a kid, But

I was like, not possible for you. You're the poor kid in the rich school. You're the, you know, started your life in a trailer, single mother. Your dad is nowhere. Who knows where he is. Didn't love you. You know, you were a punching bag for 9 years. You were this, this, and this. A lot of things that people wouldn't guess by my exterior. Again, >> pun intended. Don't judge a book by its cover. Um, but think about I do think about this and I look across the table At you and I say both of us

have survived 100% of what has happened to us. >> Yeah, sure. >> 100%. Or we wouldn't be sitting here. >> Also, you come from people that survived [ __ ] or you wouldn't be here >> or I wouldn't be here. And so you think of that track that's pretty good track record and and I think in a non, >> you know, selfserving way and in the worst way, right? Like I think we should Give ourselves some love for that. It's not easy. Life is hard. And the thing is, my main mission this day forward is

to make sure that every person I meet, and I really believe this is why I'm here, because I feel quiet about it in a way, but I want to make sure that every person I meet knows that they matter. >> That is something that I did not believe when I was a kid. >> Yeah. >> And so I am becoming the thing, the Person that I wish I could have had when I was little. and and I want to do this because and a lot of my friends would say the same thing and and is

that like this is what I try to do in everything I do. I just like how do you make a living doing that? I don't want to charge anybody for that, you know, like I just want to sit with people and ask them how they're doing and what you know because I think of my story and I'm going I'm just one person with this story. Like What about your story and you know Claire's story and every you know it's crazy to me to think like how layered all of us are. And another thing is like

I love the idea of viewing myself as a kaleidoscope. I'm a lot of different stuff. I'm an actress. I'm a you know I was a wrestler. I'm I like to write. I'm going to really try hard to swim outdoors later today and not die. Um I'm >> a lot there's a lot of lifeguards at at Springs. >> This is good. I was I needed I needed to hear that. I was thinking to myself it's on my agent Chaz to save my life and I might drown him in the process and then he's got a family

and I my brain will just be like maybe you shouldn't go. But it's just like you can be all these wonderful things that you are and you don't have to just stick to one thing. And you also don't have to be what you think others want you to be. Really, what others think is not your business Because you will never know. You will actually never know truly what someone thinks about you 100%. It's not possible. You're not in their brain. >> Well, mostly they're not thinking about you at all. >> 100%. Everybody, I have learned

this over and over. It's actually one of those things where I like I was a little nervous coming here and I had to remember it's like hey you're feeling this way you you are choosing to go on These thoughts of oh he's so much more well read in stoicism you know he's so much he's obviously much more versed like clearly as I say it you're better versed in stoicism and and I thought what am I going to bring to the table it's like hold on just bring yourself and learn something >> so you said you

found stoicism in recovery did someone give you one of the books or do you remember how you came to it >> you Oh, did but how did but how how did you find? >> So I remember some I cannot and I I remember this but I don't remember who it was. Somebody that is a recovering addict was talking about uh Marcus Aurelius and I was like oh yeah I used to read a lot of that when I was younger sort of praying for the relief of desire. >> Yeah. Or or I think it's I mean

Epictitus I think is more popular in the Recovery community because he's so much about like some stuff is up to you some stuff is not correct. Epictitus is basically the serenity prayer 2,000 years before the serenity prayer. >> I literally just had this conversation two days ago with a friend of mine. So he was like, "What? I I don't know much about stoicism." And he like googled it and he said, "Oh, it's basically the serenity prayer." I said, "I know who you're looking at." >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. >> Yeah. And the idea of like, "Are

you going to pray for this thing to magically go away or are you going to pray to have the strength to deal with this thing?" Yes. >> Cuz one or and and pray isn't I think the operative word there. It's it's like are you going to are you going to hope to be spared or are you going to hope to be strong enough to deal with it? Like one is a much more resilient sort of up To you thing to think about and the other is just like hoping you get lucky. >> More of a

victim mentality I think. Yeah, >> exactly. >> It's for me it's about accountability and you know that that and taking responsibility like being responsible for myself. So, you know, I'm not going to pray that I, you know, get a big job in a month or get income or do this or whatever. I'm going to pray that I stay Of sound mind >> and that I stay useful to others and that I am blessed with the strength to persevere. >> Yes. >> And that to me, oh, I feel so much better about myself, you know? I

feel like that's manageable. That other stuff is out of my control, right? >> You know, >> yes. One is a is a lot bigger target. Yes. >> Yeah. And and like you just think about people just sort of like how narrow their path is to success. They need this to happen and this to happen and this to happen and this to happen >> as opposed to like >> I'm sort of good with whatever. Like I think when people think like there's this the the word that is associated with stoicism is indifference, right? Like like and

so that seems like like You don't give a [ __ ] >> It's not apathy. >> Yeah. But but like I think what they mean by indifferent is like good either way. >> Yeah. >> Like I remember I was talking to Shakasmart who's a basketball coach. He was a coach here in Texas and now he's a coach in Wisconsin. And I was saying do you like warm weather or cold weather? You know they're very different Climates. And he was like I'm a dress for the weather guy. And he was basically saying I don't give a

[ __ ] because I don't control it. And and you know I think a lot of people are like no no this is how I need things to be. Yeah. And that's good so long as you get it and you get in trouble when you don't get it. And life >> ultimately you realize doesn't care what you care about. >> No, life has its own terms. It it really Isn't uh you are not the center of the universe. >> Yes. >> Um thank God. >> I think that's really what the fourth step is about. It's

not so much like do you actually have to believe in a big guy in the sky or the gods the way the stoics did or like does it actually have to be as some higher I think at the core of it it's primarily coming to terms with the fact that you're not the higher Power. >> Yes. You are not it. >> Yeah. >> And and I used to think then how am I going to get all this done and like I I have to be responsible for that and I remember being told no no you're

confusing it. Like know that you are not it. Meaning >> can you see it as a weight off your shoulders? you are not in control of everything. Yeah, it's a relief. I'm Like, cool. All I have to focus on is how I respond to whatever is in front of me >> and that's it. So really, if I put my focus there and try to, you know, do everything I can with a sense of integrity, a sense of usefulness, a sense of compassion, empathy, all that stuff, I mean, I'm good. I I really can't control the

weather. I can't control any anything. I mean it and so knowing that and I believe that that's The difference like you I had to learn to believe that and then it's like oh cool there's something else looking after everybody and controlling everybody else and doing or like doing like I don't have to you know try to stand in front of the ocean and stop a wave you're not going to be able to do it right >> when and even once you believe it it's still the daytoday and maybe even like hour by hour and minute

by minute Reminder because you catch yourself resuming the role of being the higher power or the center of the universe all the time. It's like this constant like you're like, "Well, no, no, I need this plane to be on time or I need this package to come in or I need this person to be elected." You know, like you need it to be a certain way to be good, to be happy, to be safe, >> to whatever it is. >> And then you're just like, "Wait, like How often historically have I gotten my way?" Like,

not that often. And you're fine. You figure it out. And in fact, you look back and you go, "Hey, most of the time the things I'm most proud of are like how I responded when it didn't go my way." >> Yeah. There's a great sense of empowerment that you can get from that knowing that if you take things one step at a time as they come, you can get through anything. >> Yeah. >> And and I think, you know, a lot of people will ask me, I work with a lot of women in recovery, and

I'll get asked, "Well, I don't understand how to do that." you know, like it's easier said than done. You know, you get you have, you know, this amount of time. I'm thinking, I don't got a lot of time. So, like eight years is not a ton of time. But when I'm asked that, they're like, "How do you do it then?" And then you're Kind of like, "Oh [ __ ] I got to Okay." I go back to I stay curious. I I look at my life as one big fat experiment. Like when I I didn't

know how that flight was going to go, if there was going to be, you know, but I was like, I'm curious. I want to I'm curious about the people I'm sitting next to. I'm curious, you know, if if I'm I was talking with this fellow next to me, Anders from Sweden. Um, and I was drinking a club soda at the same time and I he made me laugh and it came Out my nose and I was like, couldn't have predicted that to happen, you know? But then it's like, okay, how do I respond to that?

I used to feel embarrassed, right? I laughed harder and more came out of my nose. It was just like there's a lightness of being when for me when I stay curious rather than dictative like this has to happen so I can do this and that. It's like >> boy left to my own devices like I clearly am not the best judge of what Should happen and what shouldn't happen. So I'm really curious to let something outside of myself something bigger than me lead like steer the ship. >> Well that is yeah that's an interesting way

to think about it. Right. Part of part of accepting powerlessness and also that the higher power thing probably the reason that's so important in recovery is like you don't make good choices. That's why you're here. Like like if if it was working, you wouldn't be here. And if you were wellqualified to be the driver of the universe, wouldn't you wouldn't have blown up your life, >> right? >> Yeah. >> 100%. >> Sometimes we have to learn to trust our instincts. And then there's this other part of it where you're like, "No, my instincts are [

__ ] stupid." I mean, you learn that when you train, like in Any kind of combat sport, you're like, "Whatever you think you're good at, then when you actually you're like, "No, no, no. This is like your instincts are what make you, you know, you go like this or you do the thing and that's like the most vulnerable thing you can do. You your instincts suck." >> I literally just learned this uh Saturday, what what is today? Monday. That's why I have bruises all over my wrist. So, I practice Saiak Kali, which Is a Filipino

blade fighting martial art. I know, shocker. >> You have safe hobbies. >> I do have such safe hobbies and uh you know, yeah, >> it's the right amount of crazy keeps me sane. Um but they were saying, you know, when somebody swings at you from this direction, right, from their >> you know, left, you're going to block with your right. That is horrible. That is something that's instinctual, right? That is a very reflexive response. We train to have uh the conditioned and correct response which would be to block from the opposite arm >> because then

you have you have more space to one you're protecting your body. You're steering that person offline of your body and then you're also in a position to take the weapon or do something that would I guess stop the situation from continuing. >> And it's and it's weird. So, we were Drilling and doing this and I I did the first several times put up my right arm and it's like go with your left tap tap tap >> and and I thought this is you you have to practice this stuff. It is not natural for most people

and alcoholics and addicts that are in recovery. We're so much luckier. We are cuz we we literally get taught this stuff from day one and we get to see it in real time. And you know, I I find the 12 steps Incredibly helpful. They're almost like this algorithm. I can plug my life into and it spits out a pretty solid suggestion. You know, it's up to me whether I take that suggestion, but a lot of us that are sober and I guess I could I should just speak for myself is that I have been incredibly

humbled >> by my recovery, by people around me. And so I I find that strange. I don't know if easier is the word, but I do find that I I have easier access to that Mentality. >> Yeah. Well, people will go like, "Oh, I'm going to trust my gut." But it's like, have you actually done the work to earn that trust? You know, like like you you like I think people people are like, "Oh, I'm I'm intuitive." And [clears throat] it's like >> where's the evidence that you have good intuition, you know, and and so

like part of I think whether it's troll or philosophy or religion, what they are is Like they're not perfect, but but it's it's it is tried and tested over thousands of years that like you trust this thing. override your instincts and your impulses because like this is this is a better framework or an algorithm because your algorithm is biased. It's prejudiced. It's not sufficiently worked. It's all these other things and and you have to have that sort of leap of faith or the trust in the Yeah. This is actually >> this is based on more

than just me who by the way hasn't been here that long. >> Right. Correct. >> Or actually been through anything that ser the like the most serious thing that you've been through. I mean, every person is not the most serious thing that people have been through. >> Correct. >> Like, it's it's only been tested to a certain amount of pressure. >> And other people have been through more And worse, more times. And like you'd think you'd want to avail yourself of like that wisdom. >> Yeah. Victor Frankle. Yeah. You know, Epic Tetus, Nelson Mandela. Like

there there's I mean the list is is actually quite long when you really look into it. I >> I think that's that's it, right? I had to take everything that I thought was my intuition and realized that actually it was my Instinct. So my instinct is something I've developed over my life. I'm very wary of certain things that would give most people joy. >> It's just, you know, and I have to look at that and say I need to or I would like to >> I'm curious about how other people see this one thing. So,

you know, there could be a chocolate bar in the middle of the table and I'd be like, "Fantastic." Like, I love chocolate, Right? You could be allergic to it. Two different perspectives, right? You could be like, "Oh my god, get that out of here." Like, say you're anaphylactic. And then I could be like, "I'll take it." You know, I'll eat it. And this is why I think when I am in Africa, I do some work with an organization called Self-Help Africa. When I'm there, honestly, you know, I'm in I'm in places where the poverty is

extreme, as most of us know, but the joy is so much greater Than what I found, you know, where I live in New York City. And I have to look at that and go, perspective. >> Sure. >> You know, it's just opening my my eyes so much. And so what that is doing is making me more and more and more curious. And so I come back to that, you know, curiosity of just being like, I wonder what's going to happen next. For better or for worse, I just I'm curious. Like I'm going to stick around

to find Out. >> Yeah. Right. Right. That famous Zen saying about wait and see. You know, >> I I Yes. >> Like you don't know. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's it could be the worst thing that ever happened >> or it could be the best thing that ever happened, but you don't know. >> It could be both. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> I read somewhere that you read like read a stoic passage every day. >> Okay. I do. I actually brought my daily stroke book because um whether you like it or not, you're going to

sign it. Um so I I used to have meditations >> um and I would read that and I would you know sometimes I I don't have a ton of time to sit and meditate on it. So what I love that you've done is you've brought this ancient philosophy and you have made it so much more digestible for The modern person. These teachings honestly they were popular at some points in history right like repeatedly >> but in all honesty when I mention stoicism a lot of people are like what's that like you're stoic like you're strong

you stand up tall and you're like not quite um and so when I start to talk about it they're always like wow I mean yeah I've thought that way or I felt that way and so I recommend your book because I say look not only are you just Getting Marcus Relius you're getting Epictitus you're getting Cynica you're getting all these different uh avenues of stoicism of the philosophy and you're getting somebody who is alive right now that's putting it out there in real time. So that if you read a text and you're like, hm, I

I'm not quite sure what that means. It's like, you know what, here's an interpretation at the bottom of the page. Yeah. >> Does it does that give you something to Think about? And so what I do is every morning I wake up, this is part of my uh morning routine to keep my head screwed on straight. >> I wake up, I write a gratitude list that's half a page. Um, and it can be silly things. It can be something grand. I I just say look it's again >> the whole spectrum right I have a lot

to be grateful for and it puts my mind in a state of look at and focus on what's working like what's going good you know Because there's a lot of stuff I mean you can have something bad happen in your life and then that's all you see and it's like hold on two things can be happening at the same time and even more so I do that actually wrong right before I do the gratitude list I read a passage from the daily stoic >> oh wow >> and then I take that and I think about

it and I say hm I'm going to carry that with me today and I'm going to apply the Lesson and and and I catch sometimes I'll take a screen grab on my phone um if it's a little longer because I want to read it again. Yeah. >> And so then I write the gratitude list. Then I have these little intention cards that I found that I've had for like 15 years or something and I'll just pull a random card and also carry that intention. And then I start my day and I I just I feel

grounded because I feel very aligned with with this philosophy. And look, yes, as a woman saying this, you know, I haven't encountered many female stoics. I have encountered a lot of women that I think already sort of have this philosophy within them. >> Sure. >> That don't realize that it matches stoicism, but I can't say that the Stoics treated women very well. You know, there's a lot of history in there that's a little dodgy, but it's sign of the times and whatnot. And I'm sure There were female stoics. They just weren't recorded as often >>

because they couldn't be. >> Well, I mean, this is a world where like uh all the women in your line of uh the family would just have the same name. So, it's like >> Yes. That's true. >> Julia Caesar, Julius Caesar, Julia Caesar, you know, it's just like how it would go. So, yeah, we we don't have great records. >> Yes. But not to say that that can't you know you doing what you're doing. It's like this is part of the legacy and and this is how I see it just coming from my perspective is

like you are taking something that is so profound that I have found that helps me in my daily life that has helped give me a sense of peace that I have trouble reaching on my own. You've taken it made it accessible and that's part of your legacy. >> Well, that's very nice. I feel like I'm, you know, you're talking about being a service. Someone did that for me and I'm just sort of paying that forward. That's what sort of gets me going. >> Is it green? Is that who you're talking about? You're >> uh You

want to know who introduced me to stoicism? Dr. Drew >> even. Oh, I knew that. I read I remember hearing about that. Very random set of circumstances. Perfect. Somebody gives You the book and then I mean >> you can give someone the tools and then do you know it's ultimately on them to read it or apply it or do what they are going to do with it. But yeah, I found this thing. It did something for me. And then you're sort of I feel like life is about paying it forward. >> I agree. I love

that philosophy. So, how do you feel now knowing I mean again, and this isn't from an egoic perspective. It's like do you feel like You are very much in line and aligned with why you were put on this planet? >> Yeah. I mean, I feel like this is what I'm meant to do. In a way, the success of it complicates it because there's just a lot of people involved. And I don't just mean there's like a big team, which there is. It's not just me, but I I mean there's just like a lot of >>

people involved with me and the thing that I would also quietly be spending time with. >> Yeah. >> Anyway, like it's what I I like the I also as as helpful as it's been to me and as much as I try to apply to my life, my personal application of it is a constant struggle like it is for everyone. Mhm. >> But there's also just like this is like the the thing that's creatively and artistically fulfilling to me. >> Mhm. >> But then it involves lots of people. Does that make sense? Like >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> It there. So there's a that's the weirder part. >> But would you say that that might be how you know that it is your purpose is that you would be doing it without the notoriety as well? >> I think so. Yeah. Um >> so it's naturally in you. It's something that you >> And then it's also like I what I feel Like I think stoicism is the philosophy that I'm lit up by, but then writing is the profession that I'm lit up by and they just happen to have merged. >> And so that's a

weird >> do you know what I mean? If I was like personally into stoic philosophy and then I wrote, >> you know, like murder mystery, >> murder mysteries or or you know, historical fiction or whatever, they it would be there would be a separate There'd be like a church and state there, but there isn't. So it's it's a little it can be a little weird. >> I actually find that to be uh very similar to Marcus Aurelius. >> Yeah. Maybe >> in in the in the sense that like he [snorts] did this thing as a

way to help himself stay grounded and help him rule in the best way that he saw fit. So it's kind of one of those things where he was constantly humbled Every day by these two things that were intersecting quite often. Well, I think it's like if you had asked him at 20 what he wanted to do with his life, 15, he would have said, "I want to be a philosopher, right?" >> And then he gets sort of selected or drafted into being the emperor. And I think what I would make up and if I was

doing it in fiction, I I would I would show him as being quite torn by this >> and not and only later in life after a lot of struggle and resistance does he realize that they're the same thing and that actually he was uniquely suited to be a king who was a philosopher as opposed to a philosopher who had opinions about how a king should be. >> Sure. But but I think that's common is like we think our job or our path or what we were chosen for is this >> and it's actually this and

it's only in understanding that they're much more Similar that eventually they converge that we're sort of really doing what we're supposed to be doing. >> Yeah. I think that's a big relief in life. >> Yeah. Well, and when you stop trying to fight, you're like, "No, no, I don't want that thing. I want this thing." and you realize actually in some ways this thing is what's actually going to allow you to do that thing. >> Yeah. Like facilitates it. It preps it. And again like I see that with Epictitus as well. You know, you're you're

looking at this guy and you're just like, God, he's like the I mean, talk about like a a shitty deck of cards, but he didn't let it stop him from writing what he, you know, wrote down in that sense of like going, "These are the lessons I'm learning." In also weird parallel to Marcus Aurelius. Well, they're both dealt a they're both one is dealt a shittier objectively deck of cards, but Like neither of them is dealt the hand they would have chosen. And that's what they share in common, I think. >> And that's where the

meditations come from. That is where this philosophy comes from. You I I don't think it would have been possible without that two halves of a whole dueling >> situation that they were both put in. That of course then helps me where I'm at in my life and will continue to help me to to keep that perspective of like Hm >> yeah. You don't know that goes to the curiosity. It's like hey you know you think your job is X >> but the world's over here trying to hire you for Y. >> Yes. >> And you're

like well maybe I >> instead of fighting it I'll see >> if that's actually what I'm supposed to do. >> Yeah. And what have I got to lose? Like Why not? Like I I think society has given us a template of what we feel because we've seen it and a lot of people most of them are miserable but we go oh but everybody else has said it's this so I I guess they're right and it's like oh no how do you feel? >> Yeah. >> You know what do you feel to be true? And I

think we all have it in us. We all have that inner knowing and it's just our external world and the people in it Have we've allowed them to consciously or unconsciously take us away from our inner knowing and things like this meditations you know stoicism in general has helped me get in touch with my inner knowing that I felt or that I feel now has always been there and I just it's always been accessible. >> Yeah, I do hear from a lot of people in recovery stoicism does seem to have made its way. Yes. And

I think historically I think there's a couple of sort of of the Original >> guys that had quoted the Stoics here or there. So I think they were even familiar with it like a hundred years ago. >> It feels that way when I read some of that literature back from like the 30s and 40s. I kind of go, "Oh, this is familiar." You know, maybe less eloquently written, but still it I can see the parallels. And again, that's that version of me that that side of me That's always trying to look for what's working. Yeah.

like what you know what can I identify with? I'm sick of looking at what makes me different. >> Yes. >> You know, I find that to be a a waste of time for me personally. >> Right. >> So, yeah. Are you going to sign my book? >> Yeah, of course. You want to go check out some books in the start? I would love to. >> Yeah, of course.