Segredos Das Campanhas De Marketing Direto Milionárias | Todd Brown - Segredos da Escala #086

the greatest marketing book ever published is you read those books devour them study them don't just read them and you have a tremendous foundation in the world of direct response brown today I don't believe that it is salesmanship and print anymore i don't believe that salesmanship and print is the right mentality the right approach to take and we'll get into the difference between selling and marketing and how they're two completely different activities with two different outcomes and objectives all marketing campaigns to me are kind of really broken down into two core sections two big chunks the first chunk which is 75% of the marketing campaign 75% of the copy 75% of what it is that I say is differentiation in marketing is essential and today there are only two meaningful ways to differentiate once you've got the unique mechanism and you've identified the right primary promise we then put together what we call the campaign thesis each one of those beliefs then become a CPB chunk do you have any tips on that on how people could get better in creating these kind of logical arguments your biggest claim should only be as big as your biggest proof point the easiest way to offer that proof support evidence is to use [Music] Okay so first of all thank you so much Todd for being here and as I say to you I'm a big fan of yours and I hope that from this podcast we can create some value for our Brazilian audience so first of all could you please just tell me a little bit about yourself and what you have done for the few people that don't know you here in Brazil so they can get to know a little bit better know what you're good at and that kind of stuff yeah absolutely so I I'll keep it to the to the marketing stuff rather than going personal so I've been in the direct response marketing world for uh a little bit over two decades um and so uh I you know my first exposure to direct response I had no idea what direct response was i thought marketing and advertising were kind of the same things and and and interchangeable and when I started to learn that direct response was you know at the time was salesmanship in print and that you could create a sales pitch one time and then use it over and over and over to generate sales i was absolutely bit by the bug and I became just a uh a ravenous student of direct response learning everything that I could get you know learning from everything that I can get my hands on studying the greats probably very similar to you Gary Halbert and Dan Kennedy and back then Jay Abraham and then of course going to the um classics and uh and I and then you know I'll fast forward a number of years after having my own information product businesses in some niche spaces i ended up uh beginning to share with mainstream entrepreneurs what I was doing with funnels this is going back maybe about 10 years ago now and uh and the rest is really history today I'm blessed to be um the guy that most of the top marketing experts come to when they need help with their own campaigns i've had the good fortune to work with the best of the best on the on the um on the planet in terms of direct response and so I would say that my kind of my my superpower is being able to engineer customer acquisition campaigns that are able to scale out the wazoo on the front end in terms of generating new buyers and so hope we'll you know get the chance to really talk about my approach to engineering these campaigns and what makes it you know wildly different from uh what most people do out there yeah no of course we talk about it but first ju just a question you talk you just talked about salesmanship in print that comes from Claude Hopkins right in his book scientific advertising so from what you just said you have studied all the classics all these guys but you're also doing marketing right now today in 2024 so what do you think it's better to people that are just starting out if they want to actually learn copy learn direct response marketing should they just like buy some online course and go that way just study what's working now or do you think it's better to actually have this background study of all the copyrightiting classics because some of some of these books are very old right for example scientific advertising I think it's um I think it's 100 years old maybe right yeah it I so to answer the question I I would say so a couple things you know and hope I I hope that we'll have the opportunity to come back and talk about the fact that probably today I don't believe that it is salesmanship and print anymore i don't believe that salesmanship and print is the right mentality the right approach to um to take and we'll get into the difference between selling and marketing and how they're two completely different activities with two different outcomes and objectives and and whatnot but let me answer the core question uh that you posed which is my my answer is number one I do feel like it is valuable to still consume uh the uh many of the classics i think that there are certain principles and elements taught in the classics that still hold true today things like what what you would see as really copy 101 or marketing 101 focusing on the prospect focusing on the benefits the outcome the transformation the result that they want understanding the difference between features and um and benefits in uh in copy so I do think that there is value in starting with the classics to get this foundation of persuasive language and understanding ultimately kind of the core of what it is that we're doing but then I feel that it it is really necessary to look at and study to become a student of the campaigns that are working today because what you will find is that there is a stark difference between the campaigns that are working today compared to the ones that were published and effective years ago especially in competitive crowded and saturated markets where the sophistication of the audience is much greater than it was years ago so you start with the the the foundation of the class six and then I would go to studying what is working today um and more specifically what is working today within different markets meaning that right what is effective in one market may not necessarily be effective in another market because of the sophistication of the audience the sophistication of the audience in a crowded saturated competitive space is wildly greater than let's say a newer market that's not as crowded and filled with direct response marketing and so does that answer the question of course just one follow-up question what books specifically do you recommend because when you talk about classics there's just so much of them so so many of them so do you have like maybe one book or two that you think "Oh this is the one that you should read. " Yeah so I would say that number one the the greatest marketing book ever published is Breakthrough Advertising by Eugene Schwarz it's one that uh every serious direct response marketer should read and read every single year uh number two right it's a little bit deep it's it's a lot kind of conceptual uh there's a lot of big ideas in there but it will give you a rock solid foundation in the most important and most valuable principles today and Eugene Schwarz was one of the greatest copywriters ever to play the game i also think uh John Cable's tested advertising methods I believe it is uh specifically the fourth version not the fifth version so version there's there's like version four not version five and so look for version four of tested advertising methods i also think the uh Robert Collier letter book is another great one it's much more kind of going through copy old school copy uh and I would say Joe Sugarman has a book not triggers i forget what it's called advertising i think it's Edwick the the Edwick copyrightiting handbook yeah that's a that's a version of it yes that one is is totally good you read those books uh devour them study them don't just read them and you have a tremendous foundation in the world of direct response awesome and for for the listeners that are at home I think that the only way that you can get breakthrough advertising today is talking to a guy named Brian Kurtz i think he republished the book or something like that correct he has the re he has the publishing rights today he works with he has a close relationship with Eugene Schwarz's uh Eugene Schwarz has passed on but his wife Brian is very close and Brian has done a tremendous job of publishing uh and making it accessible prior to Brian taking over the publishing rights uh there were listings for Breakthrough Advertising that were $700 $900 to pay for breakthrough advertising and so today you can get it I think for you know 60 70 bucks something like that well worth it i actually in in my library back there there's only one book besides my own that I have more than one copy of and Breakthrough Advertising is it awesome awesome and even if you pay $900 guys it's still worth it you should check it out it's one of the best books in copyrightiting ever [Music] for so you say that you're like super power is creating these exition campaigns that you can have profit on the on the front end so how how do you do that what's the first step if someone wants to create a direct marketing campaign wow okay so that's a big big broad general question let me let me start with this because this will play into this and give some context to my answer so one of the big differences between my journey in the direct response world compared to everybody else which has radically impacted my approach to campaign creation is that I had one foot in the online marketing world one foot in the typical online marketing space and at the same time I also had one foot in the big direct response publishing space working with companies like Agora who is the 800 pound gorilla in the world of direct response and I got to see very early on what it is that we were doing in the online marketing world and doing well that the big direct response publishing companies weren't doing but I also got to see what the big direct response publishing companies were doing and doing really well that we over here in the online marketing world weren't doing and what I was able to do was I was able to bring the best of both of those worlds together into kind of a seamless methodology or method what is today referred to as the E5 method and the big thing that I saw from the direct response marketing world which has radically changed radically changed it's been many years now my my approach is really recognizing that uh that at the core of a direct response message I'm going to give a lot here and then we could circle back and go deeper into anything of course at the core of the most effective direct response marketing messages today is number one is the realization that marketing and selling are two different activities with two different objectives so selling is what it is that you do when you are talking to a prospect or communicating with prospects that already know the type of product or service they want and they now want to know why they should choose yours over the other options selling is much more about the features and benefits of the product and the offer whereas marketing is all about the prospect and their problem their unfulfilled desire uh what they view as a an ideal solution and marketing is all about leading the prospect to ultimately want your product before you ever even introduce the product and this is why Peter Ducker one of the greatest management gurus ever and this kind of one quote really kind of has been one of the big mantras in my whole marketing journey and my whole process for creating campaigns which is what Peter Ducker said was that the job of marketing is to make selling superfluous to make selling unnecessary and what Peter meant was that when marketing is done right you ultimately lead the prospect to want your product so that when you introduce the product and the offer the prospect is already pre-sold on wanting it and you don't need to go with the heavy aggressive in-your-face closing methods right like that a hardcore salesperson would use yeah and so that that leads us to well then what is effective marketing and how do I create these campaigns and so with that as the backdrop so ultimately uh what we look for in in every campaign is we look for within the solution that's being offered within the the the product that's being offered we look for and identify a unique mechanism the unique mechanism is nothing more than how the product works uniquely to give the prospect the result or outcome that they want it's different from right so let me let me take a step back and say this that and this is especially the case today differentiation in marketing is essential what prospects want to know upfront very quickly is what makes this different from every other option I have out there from everything else out there that I can spend my money on what is different about yours and today there are only two two meaningful ways to differentiate what I mean by meaningful meaningful ways is that it is it's it is of value to the prospect there are only two ways to differentiate a product uh where your prospect cares about it in other words what I mean by that is let's say you you you're let's say you're a coach and you're providing coaching on something and your point of differentiation is that you've got red hair and everybody else nobody else in your marketplace has red hair that's not a point of meaningful differentiation because nobody cares there's no benefit there's no value in it for the prospect so there are only two ways to meaningfully differentiate the first is what's called a USP a unique selling proposition that was first coined by direct response legend Ross Reeves many years ago a unique selling proposition is nothing more than and there's a lot of definitions out there but this is the easiest definition to understand a unique selling proposition is when your product offers a unique benefit that the prospect cares about uh compared to all of the other solutions meaning there is a benefit that comes with your product or service your solution that does not come with the other competing products solutions services out there that is what's known as a unique selling proposition now the thing right and it's one of the two ways to meaningfully differentiate today the problem is is that USPS today today as we're recording this are extremely rare and they're usually only found with disruptive technologies like for example when Uber first hit the scene right and they were the first ride sharing app right well the ability to hail a ride from your phone the ability to not have to have cash on you and be able to pay with your credit card the be able the ability to see when the driver would arrive all of these different things that all of these different features which brought different benefits made those things a USP for Uber but the moment that other ride share companies came along like Lyft for example all of those USPS disappeared and so right today finding and having a USP in a product is is is a rarity like I said it's mostly found with disruptive products disruptive technologies which brings us then to the second way to meaningfully differentiate and that is a unique mechanism now even though they sound similar unique selling proposition and unique mechanism they are vastly different a unique mechanism is the unique way that your product or service works to deliver the promised result to deliver the promised outcome the promised transformation uh that we are presenting so it's not we're not presenting an additional benefit we may we may even be presenting the same promise outcome result as everybody else in the marketplace is but we have a different mechanism a different way that our product or service works to deliver that result so unique selling proposition is a unique benefit a unique mechanism is the unique way that the product or service works to deliver the benefit to deliver the promise so before I go on does that make sense of course okay 100% okay now every product or service that works that actually delivers some result has a mechanism what I mean by mechanism is let's take a a vitamin supplement a supplement that brings down blood pressure well well there's a reason why that supplement is able to bring down blood pressure there's a mechanism it might be a certain ingredient it might be the combination of ingredients it might be the dosages it might be the form of the ingredients it might be all of the above that's what we would label as the mechanism behind that uh behind that uh supplement and so with that as the backdrop now every campaign that we create is first and foremost driven by first identifying fleshing out and naming the unique mechanism behind the product and unless what's Go ahead yeah sure just a quick question because I think this question will be valuable for the audience so from what I understood the benefit of the unique mechanism is to differentiate the your offer so people will actually see a difference and then they could buy for you and the way that we do that is through this thing called the unique mechanism but it only works if the audience actually believes that these unique mechanisms are actually will work for them y and is actually something unique so if you have a product that is not that unique in the first place you can still identify the mechanism you can still name it but at the end of the day it will not sell because other people already for example have this mechanism so what do you think about the idea of instead of looking at the product to find the mechanism you look at the market to see which mechanism was not introduced to the market yet and then creating a product around this new mechanism because then I think that it will be easier to sell this product what do you think about that yeah so lot of great question man and lot of lot of depth to what it is that you you asked so uh so and I'm going to get I'll answer that in just a second so first and foremost right when we say that you that we identify a unique mechanism this is important because in order to do that right you need to be a student of your market like let me take a step back in the E5 method the very f the the very first stage is what we call examination you could think about it as research you have to know your audience prospects you have to know and examine your competitors and then after you've examined prospects examine competitors and there's a whole we don't need to get into the nitty-gritty details of how you do that and the the the whole process but after you examine prospects after you examine competitors then you examine the product and the reason why I'm sharing that here is because you need to know what is already being offered to your prospects through competitors in order to know whether you have a unique mechanism or not if you aren't a student of your market and you don't do the examination stage you might think you have a unique mechanism but you don't you really just have a commoditized mechanism and so ultimately we are identifying the the unique mechanism has to be a unique mechanism if if you have just a mechanism you don't have any differentiation what that means is you're selling the same mechanism that everybody else is selling or other people out in the marketplace are selling and so the first the the the the first step is the examination so that now you can look at the product and identify what is unique about the way that this product works compared to the other solutions out there and so right that's the key the backdrop is see and this is important it's unique in the eyes of the prospect and so there might be aspects of your product or service and how your product or service works that is also in competitors products and services but if your competitors are uh they're not talking about those aspects and you do it becomes unique in the eyes of the prospect so it doesn't have to be unique amongst competitors it has to be unique in the eyes of the prospect which is why you have to do the examination you have to know what your prospects have already heard have already seen what they're being told what they're being offered by other competitors now look you you you you asked this question of and you made this great point that well look you know if they don't believe that this unique mechanism will work for them they're not going to buy and that's absolutely spot-on the case all across the board what I will say is that when it comes to copy when it comes to marketing campaigns in general believability is essential because if they don't believe what it is that you're saying if they don't believe what it is that you're claiming about the unique mechanism if they don't believe that they're going to experience the result the outcome the transformation they're not going to buy and so everything that we do has to be believed by the prospect and this is where now we're circling back and so hang with me for a second this is where what I learned from the direct response the big direct response publishers uh and what they were doing differently from the the internet marketing community comes into play in how I put together these campaigns once we've got the unique mechanism identified ultimately and I'm kind of skipping some steps here but I want to make this point ultimately what we then do is we put together a rockolid airtight logical and emotional argument for not only what makes the this unique mechanism different from all the other solutions but what makes it superior and this is an important little point that I just want to emphasize what we're not doing and this is why I say that it's it's not I don't believe in salesmanship in print cuz salesmanship like the idea of salesmanship in print is basically presenting a promise presenting a unique mechanism and then presenting a whole bunch of benefits this is what it'll do for you you'll experience this this you don't have to do this you don't have to do this and you'll enjoy this this this this that's the typical copy approach of salesmanship in print what we're doing is we're actually putting together an argument to prove what makes the unique mechanism not only different but superior to every other method process system mechanism solution out there and so our campaigns are m the thing that I like to say that you've probably heard me say before that I've been training people on for you know you know years and years now is this is much more akin to thinking like a prosecutor presenting a case in court than it is a salesman presenting a sales pitch i am going to present a rockolid argument that leads the audience to one conclusion and one conclusion only which is that this mechanism is the superior way to get the result and outcome that you want and so it is much more logical than what you typically see from the the the salesmanship and print mentality of just benefit benefit benefit benefit benefit we still have benefits in there we still have emotion in there but at the core is an argument that proves the difference and superiority of the unique mechanism compared to everything else and here's the point that I want to make that I look at our all marketing campaigns to me are kind of really broken down into two core sections two big chunks the first chunk which is 75% of the marketing campaign 75% of the copy 75% of what it is that I say is marketing specifically in this case is presenting the argument for the unique mechanism only the last 25% of a campaign is selling that's the only part that I'm talking about the product that's the only part that I'm talking about the offer is in the last 25% i don't talk about the product or talk about the offer until I've led the prospect to see that the unique mechanism is different and superior to every other option and once I've led them to see that the unique mechanism is different and superior to every other solution out there it's at that point that they want the unique mechanism and that's when I segue into the offer because when done right the offer is the only place that they can experience the benefits of that unique mechanism so you've created this all roads lead to you they can't go Google and get it somewhere else right and when I go into the offer after they've bought into the value of the unique mechanism they're pre-sold they want it they they want it before I've even mentioned the product or the offer so this is why we see people that when we make the offer right they they're thanking us they're they're they're they're thanking us whether it's on a webinar whether they're sending into customer support thank you for putting this together for me why because we educated them through the first 75% on the unique mechanism we presented that argument they saw it they got it they want it and then we gave them a way to get it [Music] [Music] foreign speech foreign speech foreign speech [Music] [Music] that's awesome the first time that I saw this kind of argument was actually in your your course I think or your book the E5 where you have that framework i think it's called one two three CPB i think that's what I remember cpb chunks yeah CPB chunks exactly and I also solved this in a book called Quick Start Copyrightiting System it is by Tony Flores and Clayton Mpiece i think in the chapter eight it's called the ABC process of making your copy invincible so if you're in the audience you want to know more how to create this bulletproof argument you have these two resources that you can check it out and that's actually in my opinion the the the hardest part besides actually identifying the unique mechanism but that's the hardest part in creating like your sales message because at the end of the day it's actually a creative process right you need to create the the argument actually from from scratch do you have any tips on that on how people could get better in creating these these kind of logical arguments yeah well I I think you know just to give some food for thought um I think look I think that people when they hear this idea or this concept of an argument um a logical argument a logic chain they get intimidated not realizing that we put together arguments all the time for different ideas different beliefs that we have if like look if if you think that you know if you think that you know uh lifting weights is essential for older people to remain healthy and I asked you why what's ultimately going to come next if you have any knowledge like if you have anything to back up that statement that you just said is going to be some form of an argument right you're going to present some form of an argument if if you said to somebody like look I if if your friend you said to you "I'm going to I'm going to go work today from the library. " And you said "Well you you can't go work from the library today.

" And they said "Why? " And you said "Well because you know the library is closed on Sundays and today is Sunday and so today the library is closed so you can't work there. " That's an argument that's an That's a perfect example of an argument and so you know so ultimately it is something that people just don't even realize they're presenting arguments they're presenting they're giving reasons why somebody should believe X and so that's really all all we're doing now part of the process that I skipped over is that once we've got the unique mechanism and we've identified what is the what what is what we call the primary promise what's the outcome the result the transformation that uh that we're presenting to prospects that they can that they can experience thanks to this mechanism what is that overarching result outcome transformation that we know they want that we can present to them they're going to experience with this unique mechanism once you've got the unique mechanism and you've identified the right primary promise we then put together what we call the campaign thesis the campaign thesis is the one belief that we need prospects to have before we segue into the offer and that one belief is always in in in some form it's always that the best or the fastest or the easiest way or the most reliable way to experience the primary promise is with the unique mechanism that's the form we actually right and so once you've got that once you've got that campaign thesis you then have to ask yourself well what do they need to believe to believe that just like if you said right if you said older people should weight train for health benefits well what do they need to believe to believe that they might need to believe that when they get older they lose muscle and losing muscle you know um puts them at risk for you know breaking a bone if they fall or something like that it right it it uh you might have to explain to them that you know weight training gives them you know uh spinal health or you right there might be things that you have to that they have to believe three things four things five five things that they need to believe in order to believe that every older person uh to remain healthy should be should be weight training well once we've identified those what do they need to believe in order to believe that to believe the the the thesis each one of those beliefs then become a CPB chunk got it each one of those become just a chunk and then we go right and for for reference for everybody CPB stands for claim we make a claim right like we offer proof and then we offer benefits what that so what that means to you is right and that's how every every argument is there's a thesis statement a campaign thesis statement that becomes our north star that becomes our guiding light everything we do and say and show and present in that first 75% of the of the campaign the marketing portion is designed to lead prospects to that one belief to that campaign thesis to accept and believe that campaign thesis see because I know if they believe that the better way the superior way the faster way for them to experience the primary promise is with the unique mechanism if I get them to believe that they're going to want the offer because the offer is the only place that they could get the unique mechanism so then what we do right is well what do they need to believe to believe that okay it's these five things then each of those five things become their own chunk number one CPB claim we claim that thing to be true right that you know people as they get older they lose you know they lose muscle so weight training is the only activity that helps to you know build muscle right here's proof of that right and so what that means for you is that when you're building muscle you're blah blah blah blah blah next CPB chunk for thing number two that they need to believe in order to believe the thesis and all we're doing is just leading them down this path so that by the time we're done they're like I get it I see that the best way for me to primary promise is with this unique mechanism i get it how do I use it now how do I implement it boom we segue into the offer todd you have no idea how much money I made using your exact process exact this thing that you just said man it's amazing it really works guys and there's a book called the 16 world sales letter i think it's by Yeah it's it's by Brazilian exactly and guys if if you're listening to this and you want to know more about how to create these kind of arguments that that's another resource that you can look into too but uh since our goal is to create this argument and getting back to unique mechanism if we if we find for example two uh mechanisms that are actually unique do you think that a way to choose to prioritize which mechanism we are going to develop is just to see which one I can create the better argument or do you have other other criteria no you nailed it which is super savvy of you man because very few people like kudos man for even for even saying that because very few people um recognize that i always say to people right I always tell clients or you know uh students whatever that like look you know the mechanism that you have the strongest argument for is the one to go with the one where right the one that you feel most confident that you can present an argument for a rockolid argument for is the one to go with right like don't you know and I always say like don't in in marketing in general and this is another kind of side point right like look what folks need to understand is that anybody can claim anything in marketing today and you you have to understand right that the internet is the least least trusted of all communication mediums today because people know that anybody can put up a web page it's super simple today and anybody can say anything there's not the same uh um oversight on the internet and web pages as there are let's say in newspaper you know print or uh or direct mail um per se where there's a lot more legalities involved and so you have to realize that just because you claim that something works quickly just because you claim something is easy just because you claim something is better than everything else merely presenting these claims doesn't make it persuasive because today people are much more skeptical and jaded compared to years ago because they've seen ridiculous advertising and marketing messages because they've bought products that didn't fulfill on what it is that they they promised and so today you need proof you need evidence you need support for what it is that you are claiming and this is why I always tell students and clients that don't claim something that you can't prove because all you do is just leave a gap of doubt in the mind of the prospect and so don't make any claim that you can't prove and this is why also right you your your you know your biggest claim should only be as big as your biggest proof point which is really just saying the same thing that you need to back up what it is that you are saying you need to offer proof evidence support now let me just say this to ease everybody's uh uh any concerns right in the easiest way the easiest way to offer that proof support evidence is to use um reasoning and logic what I mean by that is that if we said right this is super simple and we followed it up with because blah blah blah because it only requires three clicks of the mouse or the reason why is it only requires three clicks of the mouse or the reason why is because it only require what happens is everything that comes after the word because everything that comes after the the phrase the reason why or the reason why is because serves in the mind of the prospect as proof evidence support for what we just said this works quickly or this is this is the easiest solution out there the reason why is because it the what we say after is the support for that what we see today from a lot of people that are whether they're novice copywriters or they're just relying on salesmanship in print is they don't follow it up with the reason why is because they just make claim after claim after claim after claim and so today you need to offer that support and today I believe that I believe wholeheartedly that uh you know what used to be said was that people buy out of emotion and then later on after they buy they rationalize their buying decision with logic i don't believe that that's the case anymore today our marketing campaigns need to present the logical reasons and the emotional reasons why somebody should be excited about this solution and that comes in the form of an argument if you look at the claim proof uh uh of the CPB chunk claim proof that's the logical portion the benefit is where we stimulate the emotion claim proof logic benefit emotion claim proof uh uh logic benefit you know uh emotion and so does that make sense of course yes and just one more question about mechanism Todd and I think that would be the last question actually because we are running out of time but for example every day people new people go into a market and then old people leave this market for example every day a woman looks in the mirror and think oh I'm overweight or I'm getting some sagging skin or something so uh because of that a unique mechanism that is actually not unique for example collagen is actually unique for this kind of prospect the prospect that is just entering the market because of that I think there's maybe a room to use unique mechanism that are already being used in the marketplace because then you can get like this uh new people coming into the marketplace and sell it to them that would be like an easier way to find a unique mechanism so people that are just starting out and they don't know how to create one or how to do one it's like maybe a little shortcut what do you think about that do you think that's like um a good idea a bad idea or what's your opinion well yeah I think that you have to know the uh the breakdown of the marketplace to know what uh percentage of the total addressable market you're really going to be marketing to what I mean by that is you really have to know what the turnover is in the in the market how many new people are coming in and how many old people are are you know are are leaving or people that have been in the marketplace for a long time how many of them are leaving some markets have a lot of turnover where like people go into the market and leave the market other markets don't have a lot of turnover let me give you a simple example let's say that we are let look at if we were marketing some sort of business training just as an example for personal trainers and we were marketing that a business training for dentists well the per personal trainers uh because there's a a low barrier of entry to become a personal trainer right you could spend a few hundred bucks get certified become a personal trainer there is a lot more turnover in that market than is in the dental market so in the dental market right there while new people come in and older people kind of retire the market is made up of a a a large percentage of people that have been in the market for a significant period of time and so if you use a mechanism that is already out there that is not a unique mechanism for dentists you may be only talking to a small percentage of the total addressable market or appealing to a small percentage of the total addressable market whereas over in the personal training space that is a much bigger chunk of personal trainers because most personal trainers don't stay in the industry long term and so you have to understand the makeup of the market to know what you know like who are you who are you talking to and what I would say is just the last little point and this may be kind of a little advanced or or or skipping ahead a little bit but you know the the most amount of scalability comes from being able to communicate effectively with the largest percentage of the total addressable market and so right like if you're only talking to call it 10% of the market depending on how big the market is right you don't have the same level of scalability as you do if you're talking to the 90% of course of the marketplace and so right which impacts a lot of thing if you're talking to the 10% right usually and you're using paid advertising right your cost of media is going to be higher so you're paying more for a visitor like it changes the whole economics of the of the campaign so those are things to really kind of pay attention to got it todd I feel like I could talk to you for hours man you're so smart and since you you were one of my teachers I really like doing that and actually you were and you are you still are so for the people that are not learning from you right now and they would like to do so what do you recommend that they start out do you have like some book that you recommend or they should start with E5 or what do you recommend uh I mean look I I think that certainly I think you know they can get the they should get the E5 book and go through E5 if they really want to dive even deeper they should go through the E5 master class i know that that sounds self- serving but it is the most complete like they you will not need another training on direct response campaign creation uh if you go through the E5 master class and so I agree you know so that's I I mean I would tell them start with the the E5 book they could go to todd brown.