Okay, awesome. I'm going to wait for a few more people to join. I will also drop the link in the chat to make sure that people [Music] know. Nice to meet you. I've never met you before. How do you pronounce your name? Is it No, just I don't want to butcher it. Yeah. Yeah, you're actually pronouncing it well. It's no use. No use. Okay, perfect. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. All right, cool. Let me drop this link into the dojo chat. Yes, the cover letter secrets. I know that would get a lot of people, so hopefully more
people jump on, but if not, I'm going to just get started on that anyway. Normally I create a training for this, but I just didn't. I'm going to wing it today to make sure that it covers different topics to make sure that all The bases are covered this time cuz last time I used to do like polls. Um, but then some people wouldn't show up for what they voted for. So I'm like, I don't know. Hi Emily. All right. Well, I'm going to get started then. Let me pull up a cover letter um that I
wrote. Um I was part of Kevin Rogers did a thing called the good the goods workshop. I was part of that Twice. And so I have um two variations of a cover letter that won me an interview with um Hey, Simon. Um uh that won me an interview with both um the team for Rich Sheffren and then also the team for Jeff Walker. So, um I also got to since it was like um 25 to 30 different copywriters gunning for a position with both of those teams. Um it was really interesting because I got to
see other people's copy uh cover Letters as well and the different nuances and things in between. So that was a really interesting thing to be able to not only see but also um to get some feedback on it in the uh beginning as well. So that is awesome. Hey Eric, nice to see you. Hey John, how you doing? Good. How are you? Good. Good. Are you recovering? I am. I'm I'm definitely recovering. It's been a slow, tedious process, but we're moving. We're moving along, so that's Good. I got I got to ask, how was the
morphine? Um, it was great on the ride home until it wore off and then I was like, it's fine. Okay. Okay. Do you have any extra to share with Simon? Because I I think he needs some up, guys. Why does he need some? Simon, is something going on? I don't know, Simon. Is there something going on? I don't know the context of what you Guys are talking about. Eric says you need some morphine for some reason. I do. I don't know. Okay. Okay. Well, are you going to talk about cover letters? So, I have two
versions of cover letters that won me interviews with um Rick Sheffron's team and Jeff Walker's team. So, I to be honest um I kind of like used some of it some of it. So, you'll see an overlap. I also got some feedback from Kevin Rogers and a few of the other copy chiefs that gave feedback on how you can approach cover letters. I will say as a starting point, my um base was learning how to do cover letters from Daniel Thrasell. He did an adventures in Copyland newsletter on it and how his approach is kind
of different. And I really enjoyed that because it it just makes so much sense As copywriters why we would tackle cover letters different because again before copyrightiting I used to be in HR so I used to see all the other typical standard corporate cover letters and that just doesn't work in our space like it it can but the likelihood of you catching someone's eye is probably slim if you're not leveraging your copy tops which is the whole point right so Um, yes, of course, Emily. We will get to your questions after. Um, let me pull
Up the cover letters so that you could see. And so, a lot of the time with the cover letters, um, you have to figure out who you're talking to. So, you're both talking to the CEO of the brand, but also the hiring manager. And that's one of the things that, um, in the first round of the goods, a lot of people forgot. And so, in that case, it was Rich Sheffren. So, a lot of people wrote a cover letter more geared towards appealing to Rich versus his COO, which Was Felicia, who was also the hiring
manager, and she had a lot of weight on who would be a um potential um next step person. So, uh let me gather that, too. Sorry, I'm all over the place, but I will get that going shortly and I will show you my screen once I pick it up. Um, all right. Trying to figure out what I called it. That's why I'm looking. Um, but I found one so far, so I could show you that one. Um, I think it's cuz I never wrote it in a Google doc the first one. Okay. Well, I'm going
to show you um first one. Sorry. All right. And it pretty much has a similar thing. And I could talk about what the other one was. Sharing screen. I'm sharing. Oops. Okay. Can you see the Google doc? Yep. Yeah. Okay. Cool. I always like somehow share the wrong screen. So, um, so this is how my cover letter, this is for Jeff Walker, started off. Um, it was addressed to Dan, which is Jeff Walker's son, and also, um, he was the hiring manager in this case. And so pretty much I started off with a story. And
so this is where copywriting comes in where you start off in a different way that breaks the typical like it's a pattern interrupt, right? People typically get a standard cover letter. Dear hiring manager, um I am so eager to join your company because XYZ I have all these skills and look at me and my accolades. Right? So, um, one of the approaches that Daniel Thrasell initially takes is storytelling. Um, and it just shows off your copy tops, but the purpose of the story is very particular in what you would try to portray. Um, you're trying
to either show a perspective, show some kind of Way that you think, whether it's like you're a strategic thinker, analytical, like some kind of characteristic trait that you can't um that it would be easier to tell through a story than just being like, "Hey, I'm really good at attention to detail." So, um, I don't know if we want to read through this, but yeah, I guess we can. Um, I don't Do you want me to dictate it or maybe just go? I don't I don't know how you guys Want it, but I think if you
could show us like like the structure, the thinking behind it. Like I don't think you have to read the whole thing. Okay, perfect. Yeah, I don't know. So So first structure is you have a headline. Um, the ones that I've typically done is a piece of dialogue because it's like, wait, what what's going on? the other cover letter that I had. Um I wish I could find it. I'm I'll try to find it while we're talking on this, but it Started off with like I bet you can't eat that piece of steak for $100 and
stuff. And it's just like it makes no sense. But anyway, so um I kind of followed a similar thing where it's like you must be wondering why the heck I would start talking about XYZ, right? And so it will make uh sense in a moment, which is the open loop. then it's just diving into the story headon um without really setting it up. And so essentially I talked about jumping off a Ledge to do ziplining. And um the reason why I chose this story was because Dan is a thrillseker. He loves all types of adventure
sports. He's really into snowboarding and like all of these competitive things. So I figured that that would speak more to him as a story. um which is why I selected this one. Also, it allowed me to bridge the idea of taking a leap of faith that's scary to everything else. So, as you can see here, I I um pulled in some things that Dan would know about himself obviously cuz he was speed racing down um with his Capita DOA gear. This is something that I went on a deep dive in social media and he never
really talked about it, but he had it in the back as a poster and I like screenshot the video, zoomed in and was like, "Okay, gotcha." So, it's kind of like sneaky but um like stalking skills that you put to test. Um, but I think that that really shows how you can do market research and how you're just Going to continue to find the underlying things that maybe other copyriters just wouldn't do normally. And so that was just a reason as to why um I did that. So, uh, going forward, continuing on. So, it kind
of gives a background of what I've done. Um, I quit my six-year career as an HR professional to do copywriting without anything to back up. So, this is just a leap forward on that. And then it kind of brings me to this moment, which is for full circle like Why we're talking about this. Um, where I can start talking about my accolades and what makes me different. And so in that, using headlines to break up the text is just an easy way to get attention. Like if they are skimming, again, a lot of the times
when people are going through cover letters and CVS and everything, they're going through tons, like piles. They're tired. They don't want to be doing this. This is not a fun job for them to go through and Watch like all the same things. So they're trying to look for something that stands out and sticks in their brain. And so that's why when you're writing a cover letter, I think it's really important to leverage your copy skills and use headlines and make um, you know, formatting different so that you call attention to certain things that normally wouldn't
jump off the page. Um, so each bullet, you know, has a Different piece about me, right? So like I invest in my growth, right? So that's something. Um, this piece tied back into something that Dan said, uh, somewhere. So, um, he always talked about how he really appreciates finding the right team members who want to grow all the time. So, I made sure to tie that in without directly calling out to it. Um, this is a way for Bullet to basically talk about how good you are without you saying how Good you are. It's easier
to use testimonials. So, this is where you would pull in client testimonials, results, or anything like that. I chose to do more characteristic traits because I think that that goes a deep layer deeper. Um, so the next thing uh well, this is more yeah, I guess more um client driven, but so character development in that sense for here. And then the next piece was more like um client results and feedback. So, not Only am I a good team member and team like uh partner, but also I do good work and stuff, right? So, then the
tie up, right? So, again, this is something that um one nugget, this is this is just a clever copy kind of thing. So, if there's one nugget, and I capitalize this for a reason, um kind of like you managed to spot her on the side of the highway going 70 mph. So, this is something that not a lot of people know about Dan. He was traveling um well Speeding on a highway with his girlfriend and he saw a kitten on the side of the road, stopped and saved her, named her Nugget. And so, he also
created an Instagram where every once in a while you you will see Nugget somewhere in the in the photo. And he used to say like, "Spot the Nugget or spot nugs or something." And it was his own inside joke. I don't think he anticipated in me finding that, but I did. And so when he read this, he was Like, "How did you what?" So again, maybe borderline creepy stalker, whatever, but like I think it really um set his like mind like made him remember me because he was like, "How did you know that about me?"
kind of thing. So um again, uh this is something that Daniel teaches in the PS to create another open loop. So you want them to want to like get to that next point of interview where you will share something else. Um but yeah, that's pretty much The structure that I have followed. Um and that has gotten me an interview for each time. Um so it's just something that stands out. I also will say that the other people that did get interviews, a lot of them leaned into storytelling. So, that is a big big thing that
um is super important to have in your cover letters and stuff. Um same thing with the other cover letter I did with Felicia and Rich Sheffren. I talked about steak and she remembers me as the Steak girl and she was like, "I want to be your best friend because you know all like when I think of steak, I think of Jen now." And so it's creating that like nugget seed in their brain of how to remember you without being like, "Oh, yes, that's that copywriter that does everything that other copywriters do, you know?" So something
that makes you stand out. Um, for sure. So, uh, that's just an example there. I'm going to also pull up some notes from, um, the goods To give you more things that they called out as examples. um because part of the process we did cover letters um we also did copy tests and so it's really really really important for you to follow directions that if I could give you any piece of advice when it comes to applying to jobs it is following directions because believe it or not a lot of people just don't do it
I don't know why like it's so easy to just follow what they're asking you to do um And you could always give more right the following directions should be the minimum. Giving more could set you apart, but there's a fine line between doing that and giving too much where then you just kind of like shot your chances, you know. Um, so I have, let's see, some um notes for cover letters. All right. So, Okay. So, yeah, everything is a test. Um, it's basically asking if you could follow directions. And this is in every step of
the process when you are, you know, applying to jobs. It's from every interaction that you have. how long you take to respond, how long you take to submit a test if you had a deadline, right? Like they're watching every single thing. How do you respond? Um, you know, the different interactions like how do you set up your Google doc if you are setting sending in like a Test or anything like that. Um, there really isn't no like a right or wrong for cover letters. It's just consider it a form of copyrightiting. um cuz you are
sending it to sell yourself um and get them to take action which is to have you uh move on to the next step as an interview or potentially hire you if they skip that step. Um so yeah, I think the one of the rules that they also mentioned was don't reuse a cover letter for another position Because it's going to change every time. Um, I kind of didn't follow that in this sense where I took some of the bullets that I used and I um just redid them, but I think it's okay because they were
different enough where like if you read one cover letter versus the other cuz the stories were different and everything. You could tell that I didn't just copy and paste it. Um, there were cases where people did actually copy and paste the same exact story and just Change the names and everything. And people talk in the industry, so it's going to be something that people will know that like they didn't spend much time on this, you know. Um, so yeah, there's that for sure. Again, people that you're sending uh the person you're sending the cover letter
to, they're reading hundreds of cover letters, so it's really important to keep in mind and research about who they are as well as the brand. Um, and then the requirements. So, this is something interesting. Requirements mean very little. It's meant to weed people out. So, you can ignore the qualifications. If you can prove that you can do it, you can get a yes. So, if this is something that a lot of copywriters come into a question with, they're like, "Oh, well, I haven't been doing that this that long, like or I've never written a specific
type of copy." If you know the copy fundamentals, you Can write any piece of copy really. So, it's it's really important that you kind of detach yourself from like your past history um and what you like your your skills and everything that you can do because again, you have the dojo to lean on. You have so many members to, you know, have eyes on your copy and if you know how to do one type of copy, you pretty much know how to do all. It's just different formatting and different like things that are important for
that Piece of copy. So, um that's definitely something that is important. Um let's see what else. Um yeah, I I think that's about it when it comes to like cover letters. Um, in in terms of length, it's just however long you feel like you need it to get the point across because you could have a really long cover letter, but if it really dedicates and shows things in an interesting way, then that's fine. Um, I got feedback for like My first cover letter where it was pretty long and um, it didn't matter to the copy
chief at the time. It was Patrick Boove um who is copy chiefing at Agora. But basically he was just like I was just so captivated by the story that I didn't even notice how long the cover letter was and I just wanted to keep reading and I he got to the point where he was like I was mid readading the beginning and I just like where's this girl's number? I want to call her right Now. So you want to kind of evoke that and that's the whole point of like putting your own spin and um
putting story like I love storytelling for that reason because no one could have a story like you and so that just sets you apart immediately and um if you could leverage that then that's great for sure. Um, and sometimes cover letters, like if they read that first and maybe your copy test submission wasn't as strong, but you showed different characteristics in your Cover letter, then it could help you in that case. So like there have been instances where cover letters were really strong. The copy test was like it it was playing safe but they were
like I want to interview this person just because I saw them as a person through the cover letter and that mattered more to me than cop like the cop copy can always improve right but person different. Um, yeah. And, uh, I don't know if you Want any interview tips, too, but I have that as well. I want those tips. Okay, cool. Um, so with interviews, um, there are three talking time zones that you have to keep in mind. And I know that this is kind of like a lot to process. And naturally when we talk
we don't really think about it. So it's just something to think on the back end. But um as much as they're interviewing you, you're interviewing them. Just Remember that like you also want to make sure that it's a fit for you. Um and when you are talking to them, it's important to in uh have all of the time zones in it. So past speak of you in the past. All of your achievements, case studies, experiences, stories, lessons learned, decisions, redirections, any learnings that's in the past. The present is when you speak of them and their
situation in the Present, right? So you want to talk about any strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, um like the SWAT, right? uh themes that you notice any situations, obstacles, market forces, workforce trends, current events, present paths, anything that that brand company is currently doing in their situation is present tense, right? And then future, you speak of you and them together in the future. So it's always we, we, our vision. So this Brings in their vision, goals, objectives, navigation, prevention, inroads, anything. So, kind of like, you know, um that's something that I did in the past with my
client. We recently just did XYZ. Here were the results. And that's how I think that I can help you in your present situation where your main goal right now is to achieve, right? Uh more like um leads in just organic leads, right? I don't know. I'm making this up, but more organic leads To fill the next event. So the way that we're going to do that is we're going to do XYZ. So that's how you kind of transition it um if you were to kind of speak um so that you can frame all of the
things. I will say that um most of the time once you're in the interview slot, it's more of a chemistry call. They want to see if they can get along with you. It's usually very casual um where it kind of doesn't feel like an interview. So, um, but it is so it's Like you're having a casual conversation, but you're also being like everything matters and everything counts. Everything is a test. And so, they just kind of want to see you as a culture fit, probably how you get along, um, what you're looking for and if
it's a right fit, vice versa. And also just um one of the things for sure, always have at least three questions to ask because you never want to be in a situation where they're like, "Do you Have any questions for me?" And you're just like, "No, that was great." You know, like they really want you to think about stuff. And I think that one of the tips that I did learn is that if you show up to the call prepared with ideas, but don't go too crazy. Don't like list off a bunch of different ideas
because then it could get all over the place. But one of the things that you can do is like um you can take a look at their existing funnels, anything like optin And anything. And when you're on the call, you could say, "Hey, I really saw like I saw you're running this campaign. I think that um from what I see, it's great. I have an idea that could potentially make it better." And this is just one of the ideas that I thought that way that they think you're already invested in them, right? and you're thinking
forward thinking and then again you could bring in that we language this is what we could potentially do if I you Know when I come on whatever you could talk about um different ways of using like copy um in terms of making it plant that seed like instead of saying if it's like when right so um just having those things in mind um but definitely making sure at least you ask like one to two questions up to three is like the maximum I would probably say so that it's not too crazy. Um, of course, this
is just like if you have organic conversation ask asking questions. Don't Be in your mind like, "Okay, that's one question I asked. All right, that's two. Okay, that's three. I can't ask anymore." Like, don't don't do that. But at the end, if they're like, "Do you have any other questions for me?" Always ask a question. At least if it's one, that's fine. But it's just important because then it shows that you actually also care as well. and that um it just helps them understand kind of like where your head's at also. Um But yeah, I
don't know if that was helpful or if you have any questions related to any of that. Oh, that was very helpful. Yeah. Um I don't know if Emily, you have questions for the interview part. I have some other questions for the cover letter part. Um yeah, I I do have some questions about uh like interviews slash sales calls in general, but if we want to hit the cover letter first, that's okay. Okay, cool. Um when it comes to like the story part, right? [Music] Um how do you figure out like who is going to be
looking at it? Do you just like go crazy stalk their team and like like how do you know who's actually hiring? Right? Is is it different from company to company or like it? Yeah, it can range. Sometimes they'll tell you. So, in the cases that I were for these two specific examples, we already knew Who the hiring manager was. So, we had it easy a little bit. Um, but if you are kind of just like cold applying to stuff, um, I would typically either, um, address it to make sure you have a piece to usually
when you're applying to gigs like this, they have like a face of the brand. That would be usually who you have to appeal to because usually it's their voice, you know, it's their um, way of talking and everything like that and how they want to be perceived by Their audience. So understanding that relationship is important when you are writing the cover letter, but usually the cover letter isn't to them directly because they're not going to go sit through a bunch of applications, right? They're going to have someone do that. Most cases, it's the COO. Depending
on the company, if it's a bigger company that's following more of a traditional corporate hierarchy, they might have a specific like hiring manager who is just Like overseeing the copy team. So, they're like the the manager that oversees copy and maybe other teams like they're just like project manager or anything like that. It could be someone like that. Um or it's the COO. Usually, they're in charge of hiring. So that would be the highest level. Um if they don't have clear like uh titles typically, right, like CEO, COO, it's usually the person's right hand. So
Um you could find that out probably through looking on LinkedIn. Usually they'll you could see um titles that way. Um the other pieces uh yeah I it sometimes they have it in their about like who's on the team on a website. Um or it's just if you know happen to know word of mouth you could ask around and know like who is the appropriate person. If you don't know the person, then that's okay. Cuz sometimes it can be just a blind like You have no idea who it is, then you would address it as like
the hiring manager. But trying to find ways to make it personable where you are finding things about the brand that isn't surface level. Like if I were to do a quick search on the brand, anyone can do that, right? But you as a copywriter and a strategist will go several levels deeper. And that will showcase you as um more of an expert than let's say someone else who's just like, "Oh, I just Googled this and I know that this recently happened, so I'm going to go off that." So um hopefully that helps. But yeah, it's
sometimes it's hard to tell because they don't really tell you who is the manager or what. Um, but yeah, and usually if they don't ask for a cover letter, I would always add one anyway because the chances of that elevating your um application is a lot higher, especially when they don't ask for it. Um, usually nowadays, like for For specifically hiring for copyriters, they always ask for a cover letter. Um, whether they read it or not is different, too, because for Dan's team, they almost didn't read any cover letters. They were like, you know, we're
going to skip that part and just do the copy test, but Kevin pushed them to do the cover letters because we spent time doing it. So, it was like, you know, but um sometimes some people like when they are looking for specific roles, they Have certain things that matter most to them. And so, um you can kind of tell depending on how they issue that job description, whether it's in the description. I've seen some brands do a video explaining what they're looking for and they if you pay attention to what they say, sometimes they're looking
for something more specifically than others. And so in the case of um rich, right? It was more of like a they were looking for creativity. So For them it was just like new ideas, creativity, a different approach to what they were currently doing. So with that, you could easily do that with a cover letter, right? Um same thing with a copy test. You can go big or go home. Um a few people went really like crazy in terms of an idea. Um the advice there if you are going in that direction, if you want to
make a really big splash, um make sure that it's not so left field that it doesn't make sense cuz some of That happens. But if you're so in it and you're like, "No, this is exactly my vision. I'm going to do it." Sometimes they turn around and they're like, you know, I I don't agree with the vision, but I like the way you executed. And that's a different like skill thing that you're showing them on that end. And that can also gain you an interview. So, it really just depends on who's looking after things. But,
um, yeah, with Dan Walker, um, he wanted copy chops. like He wanted to see skill in copy and the copy test was doing like a landing page like hero and like hooks for emails like a full campaign and everything. So he just wanted to see that and so for him you know cover letters didn't matter as much because he just wanted to see the skill. So it really just depends um what the the team is after the most. But I would just recommend kind of like doing all of them. And uh yeah. Okay. So like
uh so with the story You're kind of hitting like if you don't know exactly who it is, you can hit it more high level based on what they're looking for, right? Like you you just demonstrate a certain thing they're looking for through the story. Yeah. So I would do that, but also make sure that you're highlighting you. The whole point of the story is to highlight you, like why you would be the best fit, best person to come in, but also to demonstrate like not saying like, "Oh, I'm the best. You need to hire me
kind of thing, but like a story that also shares like this is how I would handle like a tough situation or when I'm put up to a pressure test, this is how I behave, right?" And so those are what the stories are meant to do. It's supposed to help get like let them get to know you better as a person and how you approach um perceive think about things. It's your philosophy, strategy, um how you respond to certain like Interactions and stuff. So that's the purpose of the story like under underneath it all. Like yes,
it's entertaining but it also highlights different pieces of you characteristically. So that's definitely an important piece. But I think when it comes to making it more tied into the brand and again like you have to kind of do some research so it's not like something that you could easily copy and paste to anyone. Um but I would do if You don't have any clue of who the hiring manager is. I would just try to appeal to the the face of the brand and then maybe um any higher level positions that you can see visibly and
find little things in there that you can address in the actual cover letter. So for for the example I showed you, a lot of it was towards Dan, but some of it was towards Jeff um in between. It just happened to be addressed to Dan specifically. Um, but if it's your case where it's like Dear hiring manager, then you can talk about like I know let's say Brandon the face, right? Like Brandon really enjoys doing like XYZ. If you could find something of Brandon that you could fit in, like maybe he said somewhere in like
a podcast that he has a specific philosophy, that's a great thing to showcase, right? Um, one of the things that I did for um, uh, the Rich Sheffren cover letter, I I have to try to find it, but um, I So I Knew that Rich wouldn't like he would eventually read it maybe or not. So I would appeal to Rich a little bit. Alicia was the one who's the hiring manager. So appealing to her, I didn't know that she liked steak so much, but it just happened to work out that I picked a story about
steak. I don't know. So for her, like I hit that point really well. And then I also knew that Patrick Vet was copying the actual cover letter because he was going to go Through all 35 like rip it to shreds and then give his recommendations to the team. And so I knew nothing about Patrick and I did a deep dive on him as well. And I found like some old Twitter post about how he posted like this stool in a coffee shop and the stool like one of the legs just wasn't like flat on the
ground so it would move, right? So he went and he placed um a piece of paper underneath so it wouldn't move anymore. And he made a comment saying that I'm The type of person who will stop and do that so that I can help anyone else who sits in this chair next. And I put that in my cover letter as one of the bullets. And when he was reviewing it, he was like, "Holy shit." Like I I didn't know where you even found that, but the fact that you did like I know that you did
your research and stuff and it showed him that I share the same philosophy as him. So it was really interesting to see that for sure. Um, But yeah, so I think it's really just trying to find little things that can help you um, just stand out, but also make sure that the people reading it are like, okay, they they they know what they're doing. You know what I mean? Going to close my [Music] You have any other questions around the cover letter? Um, I guess just to kind of recap it, it's kind of like uh
everything they're Looking for in the gig, like you see that and then you you answer all that directly pretty much through the story. That's how you do it in a in a different way, right? Like you don't have to be like this point like Yeah. So, I mean, you don't have to necessarily include all of that in the story. like as you saw the the beginning was a story and then I kind of bridged it away from the story and just talked about like actual like stats or things about me or nice Things people have
said and like kind of like why I'm a good fit for this role but not fully directly saying like you need to hire me because I did the all you know what, right? So I think like you just have to like strategically do it. kind of think of it sort of like an email, right? You want the the lead to be the entertaining story part that pulls them in, right? Gets their attention, keeps them reading, and then at the end you have to pivot it to like Selling yourself. And so the story is selling you
indirectly, but then at the pivot transition part, then you could be more direct in saying like here are like things that I recently did that um are things that you're looking for. Like if they're specifically looking for someone who has experience with webinar funnels and you could put in stats like the recent webinar funnels I strategized and ran copy for did xyz. Then you could showcase that. But at the end, um, I do Think that having some kind of bullets in there is helpful, but I wouldn't do too many, which is why I stuck to
three. Um, you could do more than that, but as long as like the length matt like makes sense. Like you don't want it to be so long where you're just like giving them like bullet after bullet of all the things you've done, they could see that on your CV. But is it's like cherrypicking the right things for them to see that make sense on the cover Letter. Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. Mhm. Cool. Yeah, of course. Emily asked, "How long did it take you to do the research and craft a cover letter like that?"
So, um, it kind of depends. I think, uh, stories always take me a while because I like am a perfectionist and I like to re-edit and edit and edit. Um, so I will do like a brain dump of just like, okay, here's the base of the story, and I'll go back And edit it afterwards on where I want it to make the most sense. Um, when it comes to the research, it just depends on how much is available, right? So like for instance, with Dan Walker, he has no like social blueprint, so it was really
hard to find stuff. So, I was like googling podcasts and trying to find um any kind of video that he's ever been in, any kind of video Jeff has been in. And somehow I landed on some stuff. I was looking up all platforms of Different social media accounts to see what I could find. Going through his tagged stuff and going through other people's profile, you know, it's like going doing the deep work. Okay. Like you're be an FBI agent. Um, yeah. So, it could take a few hours or it could be quick. It just really
depends on what's available at your disposal. But my rule of thumb is like whatever I could find on Google, like usually websites, um, other like Platforms like podcasts or articles is great because usually that's something not a lot of other people go for immediately that because they don't want to sit there and go through the time. Like again, some of this the reason why it works um is because you are doing the research to make sure that it hits correctly when they read it versus someone who is easily just like mass sending stuff. they're not
going to do the work to kind of sit they're going to Have like AI pull like surface level things and be like okay great like yeah you know my company started in 2007 and I have like 10 team members but what more than that right like so I think it's important to also do that kind of work um to just find things and the best thing for that specifically is either finding social media accounts even if it's old stuff like sometimes These people have like old like like with Patrick Bet that was like an old
tweet Like 10 years ago like everyone saw this is also something interesting. He won um the p uh the uh Kentucky Derby one of the years and he had a big article on that but that was like if you scroll through his like social media feed you see it right away. So everyone like I had like there was a handful of other copyriters that use that story and I saw it and I was like everyone's going to use this. I need to find something else. So, I kept going and I kept going and Then that's
how I found like the the wobbly stool and that actually because everyone else's cover letter was like talking about the derby and stuff and how he won. And so, I was just like, "Yeah, no, I don't want to be like everyone else." So, I had to find something else. So, I think it's also putting your strategic hat on and being like like, "Okay, I'm against other copywriters who want this job." And if I were other copywriters, like the easiest Thing I can do is just take like that big event that happened. But you don't want
to be like everyone else. So you got to think a little differently. And so take a different like route. And even if that makes you like a stalker, it's fine. I think it pays off. Like it's it's really okay. Um, but yeah, I think it's just uh it shows a different level of like your determination and your drive because anyone can see like the biggest news, it's so easy. But if You're finding stuff on page five instead of page one, then like they're going to know personally like, okay, you actually sat and took the time.
Bye, Eric. Um yeah, so I mean that definitely is um yeah, super important to just take the time and once you have the like you'll know like you'll feel it like okay I think this is a good I think like good idea and everything. Um, but yeah, so I don't know if that helps with The timing. Like I think it just as long as it takes to find something that you feel is gold and you would know because you've been kind of doing this, like if you feel like, okay, I don't have enough information for
it to feel okay. I feel like you'd have some kind of like inner radar to know like, all right, like I think I could do a little better. Like if I spent like maybe an extra 30 minutes, I know I'll find something else. Um, but also if you're strapped on Time, like that's totally cool, too. Um, because you're going through this while you're doing client work, while you're doing other things. And so, it makes sense that you're not going to sit here and dedicate your whole life to like finding everything out about certain brands because
you're trying to send multiple applications out. And so, you're not going to spend so much time on one thing. But unless it's like something that calls to you where you Really want an opportunity with that company, brand, or whatever, you'll find yourself like wanting to spend more time on it. So, it's up to you to figure out in alignment like, okay, would I be over the moon if they decided to hire me, or is this something that like I could see myself doing, but I don't know if I I really want it? That will help
you determine how much effort and time you want to take to do it. Cool. Okay. Emily, you had questions about sales calls. I do. Okay. So, um in regards to a sales call, I feel like um I get to the like the first part and talking about them and their business and um what they're struggling with usually goes pretty well. and then they get to the like so tell me about you part and then I feel like I kind of freeze up and I think it's a combination of like um I don't know internal comparison
like I feel like my results maybe like aren't as impressive as some other people's or I'm kind of newer and so like I feel like I don't really know what to say and then I like I don't know freeze up and trip over my words and I just don't like how that goes. And then I've also heard like lots of different things like, oh, have a script for sales call, don't have a script for a sales call. And so, I don't know, I would just love your thoughts and input on like how to Navigate that
part of a sales call, especially if you're like a little bit newer, I guess, especially I don't know, from either a sales call or interview standpoint or both. That would be really helpful. Yeah. Okay. So, I'll I'll start with sales calls. Um, so usually if they're booking a call with you, you should be the one leading the call. So, um, what that typically looks like, and I don't like following a script because I feel like they could tell and I could Tell. And then if you're so like, usually when you follow a script, you're like,
"Oh, I I I messed up that thing. Like, how do I go back?" And it looks really awkward and you look really uncomfortable. Um, so I think having just like a base frame outline of how you want the call to go. I usually set the expectations up front. So, um, you'll start the call and you'll be like, "Hey, so nice to meet you." Usually I do some small talk like, "Oh, Where are you based again? I'm in so and so." And you could relate something to that or I don't know, you could talk about the
weather. Just something small. Um, and then I would say, "Okay, so, um, I would love to start, uh, hearing a little bit more about you and what you're looking for, and then I can go in and see how I can help you." Then they usually start talking about them. And then you would continue to try to like ask clarifying questions and just Questions to get more information to diagnose the problem. And then from there, like usually, um, if you do it this way, they won't really ask about you. Um, so you can really say like,
great, so the things that I typically do in this situation, like, it sounds like you need help with XYZ. Just mirror what they said to you, right? So just pay attention to what they're saying. It sounds like you're having trouble with this. If you don't agree with it, then You could say what I've typically seen with other clients is that they think they have a this problem, but it's really a this problem and here's why. So, if I like if we were to work together, what I would do next is I would want us to
focus on this. This will then, you know, feed into that, right? So, again, your your whole goal is to be kind of diagnosing the problem and giving your best thoughts. If you don't know how to to really handle that Because either you don't have the experience before that or anything like you would know internally like best judgment of what to do. Sometimes clients don't know what their problem is or like why it's occurring. They think that they have to tackle this but it's really like something underneath, right? So, um I would just frame it like
that way and you could say you don't have to give your whole like experience and background, you know. Um I've never Really had a case and this is all just to framing. Like if you show up confidently and you like have confidence and conviction, I think that goes a long way. Like good energy, they're not going to question like, "Okay, so how many years of experience do you have? How many times have you done this? Like what were the last things?" Sometimes they do, but I usually like for all of the calls that I've been
on for prospects and clients, they have never really Questioned how long I've done copyrightiting because I did such a good job at controlling the conversation and framing that I'm the expert. And so sometimes I would say like you know um usually in a case like this I would do XYZ or like I recent you could if you do have a recent thing you could say recently XYZ or um you know this is something like even so this is something strategic that you can leverage or not. might help you with your confidence too Is that sometimes
if you're paying attention in dojo like other people have similar issues, right? And so you you could see how they solve that, right? And you could say, "Oh, well um there was a case where a client a client you don't have to say my client, but a client um went through this and the strategy that was implemented was this and then it got that result." And so sometimes I'll do that if I don't have a direct direct kind of experience under My belt. Then I would say like I know this strategy worked because it was
implemented this. Again, I don't know what I'm looking at until I'm in your system and really poking around. But that is something that you can leverage as like an example. You're not feeling confident that you have specific examples on your own. um but usually in an interview. So that will be more of a case where they're like, "Okay, tell me about yourself or Like how did you get started?" Anything like that. And so um usually since that question comes around a lot, I would kind of default to a rough example of a story um from
what I have learned is that the goal is to not talk a lot. like every time you want to have a conversation, you want it to be roughly 80/20 where they're talking 80 and you're talking 20. And so, um, in the past, I used to babble a lot and then I would lose their kind of attention. Um, So I would do a brief truncated like version of um like uh something about me and then I would take something from the conversation that I learned about them and then flip it back to them. So it's just
a great way to like talk but also redirect the conversation. And so, um, you could say like you don't have to say like, "Hey, I've been doing this for the past year." If you don't want to put a time stamp on it, um, there's other ways that can explain your experience. You can say, um, different things like, I've worked with X amount of clients, right? That's one way to do it. Um, you can also, um, say like the type of copywriter that you are. So, like I'm a copywriter that focuses on here's my special sauce.
Like I I specifically do this. Like if I'm really into like nailing brand voice, then I'll say that as my thing. And um you could say like I recently just did this for this exciting client, blah blah blah, and this is what Happened. And then I would love to see how I can help you do that. Right? It's always redirecting them. Um but yeah, I wouldn't focus too much on your backstory because the reality of it is they probably don't really care. or they just want to know that you have um the ability to do
the job. And especially if you don't know how to do something, sometimes they'll ask point blank like, "Have you ever worked in keep before?" And sometimes the answer is like, "No, I've never worked in keep." But I I always give them the analogy the same thing. Like it's like I've worked in ESPs and all ESPs are the same. It's like if you know the layout, like the layouts are different in a house, but they all have the same components, same thing. and I'm confident that I know how to navigate Keep and I will do my
own research and due diligence to make sure that I have everything wrapped that you don't have to worry about. So again, Same thing. They just kind of want to know like reassurance that you know what you're doing and they're not talking to some like scammer. So um I think as long as you convey that where like the biggest thing is having a process. If you say like the way that I typically work is XYZ like we'll start off with um whatever like if you can outline that then they feel like you've definitely done this before
and if you have that like onboarding client Experience like nailed down then they don't question anything and so I always like to um set that expectation too where um I say like okay you know um this is what I recommend commend as the best next step for you. Um, it could range like if you want to talk about pricing, I I found that talking about pricing on the call is more helpful than not because if you get off the call and then send them a proposal, um, usually they have more like of a like they're
Not as warm anymore and then they have too much time to think about it. I like to have a pulse check by saying like, "Hey, for a project or a retainer or a scope of work like this, my typical rate is XYZ." And then if they don't fit the bill for that, so sometimes it's not. It's very, it's a nice way to make them feel like you're personalizing it to them where it's like, I typically do this for this, but I don't think that that's what you need at the moment right Now based on what
you're telling me and what your goals are. Um, I would recommend doing this and it would be this price or something like that. Like I would always reframe it because sometimes like it's it's just a great way to price anchor, but also to make them feel like you're listening to what their issues are and you're not there to just like get money all the time. Of course you are cuz you're you're doing a business, Right? But you're doing it in their best interest. And so I think that matters more. It's all about framing and positioning.
And so that's how you would do it um for for that end. But uh yeah, I I don't close on the call though. So I I like I know some people do that if they're more comfortable. I think it works more for men, and I could be wrong, but it works more for men to be like, "Okay, great. Give me your credit card details. Let's lock it in right Now." You know, or what? You have to go ask your wife. No, you're the decision maker. Let's do this, man. You know, like I think it's so
much easier. No offense, but um for for guys to do that because they're very direct in how they do marketing. Women are a little different. They need some time to think about it and don't want to feel pressure on the call. So, I don't like to do that. So, I will usually say like, "Great. As the next step, I will send Over a contract and an invoice. Once that is paid, then here's what happens. I will send you a welcome kit." So, usually I always send a welcome kit and this is just my onboarding process
and I could kind of go into detail there, but I will send a welcome kit um that gives them everything that they need to know about the whole entire like timeline process, how I communicate, policies, anything like that, what revisions are, what that means, cuz there's a Difference between revision and a full like strategy rewrite. And sometimes some clients, you know, have different ideas on that. Um I'll give everything like policies like I usually have office hours between like let's say 10 and 5 but um I you are my priority as a client. However, I
cannot always guarantee like response time. So I promise that I will respond promptly but if it's like the weekend or if it's after hours um there will be some Leeway. Uh I will also make clear that anything that I deliver is through Google Docs and I will give them instructions on how to access that. Anything will be sent via email. Um but if they want to contact me, sometimes we could do Slack or we could do messaging for quick conversations, but anything formal is going to be sent via email. Anything that I need feedback on
needs to be done a certain way. So, I will explain like what my expectations are of Them and vice versa. Um, and then usually I'll hop on a I'll give them homework. So, I make it very clear that like, hey, in your welcome kit, you will also get some homework that is due before we have our kickoff call so that I have everything I need to successfully get the job done. If you cannot get that homework done, it will push our timeline back and or there could be I have clauses in my contract. They're very
bulletproof right now because I've been Through too many situations where, you know, I just keep bulking it up. But um if they have to reschedu the call, there's a fee for that because it's a waste of my time because I have scheduled this out in my calendar for them and vice versa. and for them to turn around, you know, anything like that. No, I get them to pay. Uh, so the question was, is it during the kickoff call you get the client to pay or is it before that? It is before that. So, I Make
it very clear that, you know, on this initial like sales call, right? Like the next steps, I'm going to send you an invoice and a contract. Once that is signed and sealed and the payment is received and I usually do everything up front. The only time I ever bend to that is I will break up payments but there's a twoe gap in between so that um it's not I used to do a month and then it got to the point where I would if it's a project I would finish the project Before and then they
would still have monthly payments and it just doesn't end well. Like you have to chase them unfortunately. So the whole thing is you'll get the contract. It has all of the clauses, expectations, timeline, everything in there, clear. Um, and then once they sign that, make payment, then we can get started. So once payment is received, once the contract is signed, and I will counter sign it for them to have a copy For their records, then I'll send a welcome kit within 24 to 48 hours. And in that welcome kit will have all of the expectations,
welcoming them in, like all of that. Um, what I expect from them, what they can expect from me in this process, and the homework. The homework is the most important. Usually, this will include booking the kickoff call if we didn't already agree to it on the sales call. And then, um, submitting a form for the homework. And sometimes It's lengthy depending on what it is, and sometimes it's not. Um, but it just depends on what the scope is and what I'm looking for. But usually I start every client off with this to some degree because
I need certain information up front. And that will also include any assets. So if they need to give me previous emails or as like um information, access to their ESP, to any of their previous marketing materials or anything like that that has to be Submitted upfront. I give them 24 hours before our scheduled kickoff call. And so I will also remind them if they haven't done that and um I've had cases where they didn't do it and we'd have to reschedule the call and um yeah and they'd have to pay a fee like it it
it just comes down to that unfortunately. But if you have all these things in place, they're like, "Okay, very organized, knows what she's doing, has done this before, clearly." And so they Feel more comfortable than having someone who's like, "Oh, okay. Well, next up's like I'm going to send you some like things." And you ask different questions like throughout the week and you bother, you know? So, it's like really setting everything up for success. Kickoff call is usually 60 to 90 minutes. I always promise to give time back if we don't use all of it.
But the whole goal of the call is to just Make sure that from the homework if there's any other things I need them to dive further in for me to get context, I will do that. Um I will also ask more clarifying questions about what the objective is. And so if it's in an email retainer case, then I would ask like okay, what are the things that are coming up um that you already have planned on the docket, right? and what are the main goals and then we will figure that out and I could create
a Strategy around different promos campaigns or anything like that so that I know what's already in the works and if there are gaps then I can ask like how comfortable are you in me directing something and how quickly can we get the team to like do xyz if it is like a website um or you know a sales page or like anything in a funnel direction then we'll talk about main goals what's the main objective of this funnel. Do you want to fill seats at an event? Do you Want revenue to be the main driver?
Do you want like uh my recent one with a uh funnel, the whole goal that they initially had was to sell books? And on the call, I realized that that was not the best strategy. So, we switched it to getting bodies in the live event. And as a result, they'll get a free book in their ticket because their goal wasn't to sell the books. it was to upsell people in person because they could do that really well. So, we switched that Strategy, but otherwise they wouldn't have known that, right? So, again, you're still diagnosing, you're
still the expert on things. You could still help like sway certain things and have that going, but the call is just for clarity and also for you to reiterate that you are the expert in how you're going to handle and execute the next steps. And so, um, usually if you can leverage that position, they'll look to you for the answers. So, sometimes There's a case where like clients come in and they're like, I want it this way and I think we should do this and this is a strategy I saw that did really well for
XYZ and I want to do that and then you come in and you're like, great, but that's a different industry. And so, for your industry, I've typically done this and this works really well. And I would highly recommend we do that, but again, it's up to you, right? And then they're gonna be like, "Oh okay, great. Like, follow you. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, why don't you implement what you're doing?" And so, it's really just positioning yourself as the expert, you know, going into that situation. But, um, yeah, I I don't know
that that was like a long winded response to that. No, that was awesome. Thanks, Jen. Yeah, of course. Do you have any like other questions about that or like ex setting expectations or even just like proposals and stuff? Because I've done extensive proposals in the past and also like um really like lax proposals. So, it really kind of just depends on what direction you want to do. I would recommend doing proposals in the beginning. Um that way it sets you up to have organization if you feel less confident about proposing on the actual call. Okay,
that makes sense. Um, I was wondering if I could um ask you about a followup. Um, so I had so my client um Introduced me to someone else that is looking for a copywriter and um anyways, we were emailing back and forth and we hopped on a very spontaneous call and I didn't have any background information and that's when he asked me the like, "So tell me about yourself." But I felt like I didn't have a good answer. Anyways, um and so his main issue is that um he's running a lot of ads and getting
a lot of traffic, has decent open and click Rates, but no booked calls from email. Um I don't think he's gotten a single one this entire year so far. And um anyway, so he sent me some of his existing email copy. I could tell that there were definitely some issues there. So, I recorded a Loom video kind of diagnosing what I thought the problems were and then like what I thought he should do moving forward, sent it over, got a positive response, but then he was like, "Yeah, well, I'm going to I'm Going to do
a deeper dive because I think there might be more to this issue um of why we're not getting booked calls." Um, so I'm going to look into it and then I'll get back to you. Anyways, and so now like enough time has passed like since that conversation that I think now would be a good time to follow up, but I'm just not really sure like what to follow up with. So I would love your thoughts there. So um two things. One, I would say when You do a loom, I think that's great because that shows
your expertise, but I would not give all of the like marbles in your basket. So I would say like, hey, here's a loom. these are some things that I'm seeing upfront of what I can recommend. I would recommend you doing stuff like this XYZ. It gives them value. It gives them actionable things that they can implement on their own, but then you would probably end it. Like again, I don't know. Um there's probably More to it, but this is what I could see with what I'm given right now. I would love for an opportunity to
dive into your system and take a look around so that I can give a better um plan and strategy for you. But you know, we could circle back on that and then that would at least give them a thought like, okay, this is not all the ideas I've had and not all of the things that I know. Yeah. So then they could say like, okay, there's probably more to it. and then They would like invite you in to kind of like poke around and look. Um, and then from there, uh, since you're following up, I
would since he said like we're going to take a look and whatever, I would follow up and say like, "Hey, um, you know, what were your findings? I would love an opportunity to um, discuss like further things. I would also come back with an idea and stuff." Um, thanks Felix. I would uh yeah I would when you're following up one of the biggest Things that even like John Caprani and Matthew talk about in dojo is to come back with a piece of um like value and so instead of being like hey just checking in like
how are things going kind of thing it's like hey you know I um I'm checking in it's been a while since we talked I wanted to see h if you were able to do anything recently I and I would pull in an example like maybe um either that's you know lending from the dojo where like recently um there was a Client that had a similar issue and this and we implemented this strategy or this strategy was implemented and I thought of you and I wanted to reach out and I would love like if you um
haven't figured it out yet or even if you have like I would love to see if this is something that can help you and talk about it and then again sort of gatekeep it where like if you do hop on a call you could kind of like high level give an example of what that is and then Reiterate again I want to customize this and strategize this for you specifically so I would love to take a look around your system so that I can shape the strategy to better fit you and your needs and then
go from there that way like you find another in but I would definitely do like um that's the best way to kind of like follow back up it's kind of like oh you know I recently either did XYZ that similar and I thought of you and I would love to share Um the strategy. I think you would really benefit from it or you know lend it from dojo or someone else and say like I've seen this strategy in the wild work and I really think that that's something that um I can help you with if
you still need help or whatever. And so that would still open that door and it would help them say like okay she's proactive like she's thinking of us and she has the strategy. So that would be an awesome way to like go back in. Okay, That's awesome. Thanks, Jen. Yeah, of course. Okay, I forgot how to pronounce it again. Sorry. Um, know who the correct me, please. Yeah, it's no use. No use. Okay, thank you. Yeah, it's all right. Yeah. Do you still have time for a question? Yes, go ahead. All right. So, it's also
a question surrounding a follow-up. Um, basically there was this guy that I was talking with at the start of the year. Um, he got like a real estate uh what what is It like real estate Airbnb type of bizop offer and basically I was like messaging him on Instagram and I made him a free value email basically showing him that like yo you can use this email as a welcome email for your list. I noticed you haven't been sending emails or anything. And then he was like cool uh how much you charge how much you
do this this and that. And I was like, um, I mean, I need to know I need to know more details, so could we hop on a call so I Could go over everything? He was like, cool. We hopped on. And then he was like, "Okay, so I'm thinking of doing like a 30 email sequence for like 30 days for my free training, this, this, and that." And I was like, "Yeah, cool, man. I usually charge like uh 100 per email, but we could start the first 10 for like 85 and then see how things
move on." He was like, "Cool. I'll be thinking about it and I'll come back to you soon." And then he never came back To me. Um, he was just like every time I followed up with him, he just sent me a voice note being like, "Yeah, yeah, man. I'm I'm still thinking about it. By the way, I'm in Mexico, but yeah, after Mexico, I'll I'll tell you what I what I came down to." And then he never responded. So, around like um what was it like on Monday, I sent him an opener on Instagram again,
and then he liked it. So, now I'm thinking of like sending him something to show him what he could Potentially do with his email because he's still not sending emails to his email list. So, my initial idea was to make a Loom video, maybe craft together a couple emails that he could potentially use to his email list. Uh, because I got a pretty good AI that could like help me make a couple emails quickly. And now I could be like, "Yo, uh, these are like the type of emails you could potentially use." Um, and then
I don't know, just sell him on the idea Of like me helping with the email list potentially if he doesn't have a copyriter. What I and I have a different approach from some people. I don't like giving free work because then it kind of devalues you. Um, and it kind of depositions you as like the expert, right? So, you already gave him an an email that he could use for welcome and that is a great opener cuz it's like a free like nugget for him to see. He already talked to you. You jumped on a
Call and you gave a price and stuff, right? I think from there it's either it's too expensive from what he initially thought that he was going to get. Um sometimes some people have no idea what copy costs, so they're like, "Oh, this is going to be super cheap." And it's not, right? Um and so I would if you are following up with him, I wouldn't give him exact copy emails because clearly like he hasn't done anything with your first one. He's just Going to be like, "Oh, great. Cool." Right? Um, and eventually he might like
as you keep following up he'll get his 30 emails, right? Not Yeah. Yeah. But, um, I would say that if you want you could come up with a highle strategy plan of the 30 days or you could recommend something else like a 30-day sequence for um, his uh, what was it? It was on free training, but yeah. Yeah. So, usually I would say like the whole goal is for you to get a retainer, Right? Not a project. And so, I would recommend saying something like um you know, I recently, again, you could lend from the
dojo if you've seen something recently that matches, but um the whole goal of building that email list and relationship is so that you have um that going on in a live manner. automations are great, but a 30-day sequence to put someone in for their like his live training, I don't think that that's sufficient. Um, just from what I've seen In the space and everything, working with clients, I think that it has to be a live campaign. That way, you get live details of everything. You could always pivot and you can make changes as you go
and then you'll get feedback. If you're putting someone in a 30-day sequence for a training, like is it for, you know, selling the training and then part of the sequence is like what happens after the training? That makes a little bit more sense cuz then it's more like an Evergreen kind of situation. Um, do you know if training is live or it's evergreen? Uh, his training I I can just actually see it right here really quickly. Yeah, I think it's evergreen. Yeah. Okay. Evergreen. If that's the case, like it's like I would break up the
sequences and say like, okay, well, um, if is he running ads to it or is it organic traffic? Um, I'm not actually sure. I don't think he's running ads. Um, okay. So, it's probably organic. Yeah. Does he have a list? Uh, yes, he he does have a list. He said that he does. Oh, wait. Yeah, he's running ads, too. Yeah. Okay, great. So, if he's running ads, then I would recommend like what you could do. And he's he doesn't have a current like flow or anything set up for the training. It's just zero. Yeah. So,
so I would come back with um somewhat of a plan and very high level, Right? Like you would say like, "Hey, um I wanted to circle back on this. Uh when it comes to evergreen trainings, like you definitely want to have specific flows set up. One, it's a show up flow for when they register. So that way when you're spending ad spend, you could um make sure that you're actually getting, you know, results from that on the training. Does he sell anything or upsell? Um I'm not sure. He didn't really tell Me about it, but
I could guess that he's probably doing it because he has like um what was it? I mean, he probably sells them on like a free strategy call where he then pushes them into like a some type of a course probably. Okay. Um, what I would recommend for you to do is if you can sign up for his training and like you could audit it and basically give him some feedback on that or you can also then that will help dictate like a strategy to give him. But Usually the best way if he's doing ad spend
and it's a free training, he needs some way to liquidate that. And if he wants to make money, right, usually the best way for that is either a um an upsell or like some kind of like one-click uh order bump to it, right? So, usually for trainings, what I've done for webinars um is we would have some kind of like kit that will help uh make the training even better because it would give them resources to Implement if they don't choose to buy the course that we're selling at the end. Right? So, it's like positioned
as um great, you signed up uh but your confirmation for the training is not finished. We highly recommend that you get this kit. It includes three re resources to get you um get that ball rolling right away and then whatever you learn on the training, you could go and implement it. Right? That could be anywhere 17 27 um up to $47. Usually the Lower ranges tend to be a quicker buy in. So $27 um in the recent like uh webinar funnel I'm running like we have a lot of people who take the 27. if they
don't um we'll downell it to 17 and some people will buy that too. So, I would have that and that way he's liquid uh liquidating ad spend. So, he's recouping some of that. And then since he's is isn't really pushing um an actual like uh order or like offer at the end of the training and I don't know you you'll Have to look at the training itself but if it's a call then from there you could say you are um you're bringing in XYZ leads like I don't know how if he he if he's ever
given you any stats on what he's working with right now but depending on how many people he brings in right you could increase the show up rate you could increase um the uh the take rate by following up because sometimes people don't make a decision on that like when they show up to a Training. Um especially since it's evergreen, you could always follow up with people and then having those flows in place, right? I don't know what kind of system he's using, but usually they use a system that has analytics. You could have someone who
signed up and didn't show up. You have a no-show sequence that you need, right? You have people that signed up, you they get the show up sequence, right? You have people that signed up, attended, and dropped Off before the pitch. Then you have that sequence, right? So, they didn't see the pitch. Then you can send them a replay and then also talk about the call or whatever. And then people who watched the entire thing didn't book a call and then you have that route, right? Then you can also do um examples for actually booking a
call if they book a call. and you usually um have a sequence to help them actually attend the call. So that that's another sequence that he could Implement. Then you have one where if they book a call and they don't show, you could have another sequence, right? Or if they Yeah. So there's so many different strategies that you could have. If you outline on a Google doc, you could outline like what the the the sequences are and what you would recommend. Like I would recommend let's say five to seven emails for a no-show, but don't
give him the emails, right? That's where you come in cuz you're Like, I'm going to write and dictate the strategy. But at least if you circle back with him, you you could show him a plan. Sometimes people are visual and they need to see like XYZ versus just talking. Um, and then if you don't have previous results, you could always talk about like generalized results. Like typically by not having any of these sequences in place, you're missing out on like certain percentage of sales because you're not you're not following Up with anyone, right? And all
this ad spend that you're spending, you're just leaving your leads like that. And so you're building a list without reaching out to them. That's where like all of these automations will come into play because um you could also set up automations where if they have signed up for your free training, maybe that wasn't the right time to go on a call. You can continue to leverage that with live emails. That's where the retainer Comes in where you nurture them and eventually get them to book a call. Sometimes it takes more exposure for someone to make
a decision. like it's 21 times I think um before they come to a decision where they need to be exposed to uh you before they say a yes. So sometimes that's the case. So it he's losing out on all of those opportunities just by having no flows in place and he's pretty much burning money at that point if he's not selling really well. Like he could be selling so much better if he had those in place. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Whoa. These are some 997 sequence right here. Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, of course. Yeah, it's
really appreciated. Yeah, I'll for sure tell him that and like show them the flows and everything where you could potentially use. Um, that was a lot of information. So, I'll definitely go to the replay ASAP. Yeah, of course. And then if you want just message me on Telegram. Um, we can I can also like if you want to put together a Google doc, what I would recommend as the best way is either creating a Google doc with the action items of what you have and shooting a quick loom that kind of briefly goes over that
and your plan. And that way he both both visually see it and then also see you as the expert explaining with some context on how you will and why this is like important for him to have. I think that would be a Great way to follow up. So, you'll have that loom and you send that over like, "Hey, I just put this together for you. Let me know what you think. Let's hop on another call." Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that that that sounds amazing. I'll definitely I'll definitely do something like that and if you're okay
with it, I could just send through the Lumi so you can just click it quick. Yeah, I could give you feedback and Yeah, hopefully. That's amazing. Appreciate it. Of Course. Awesome. Any other questions from anyone? I know we're like so over time. So yeah, I just want to say thank you, Jen. This is like genius secrets you're sharing with all of us. So I appreciate it a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to say thank you too. This is awesome. Of course. Happy to help. Awesome. Well, thank you all for attending and thank you everyone
for Watching the replay if you're watching this. Um, if you have any questions, feel free to just like buzz me and Telegram and happy to help. Um, if you want to bounce ideas or if you need any feedback or extra eyes on something, happy to help you with whatever. But thank you so much for attending and um, I'll see you next time. Thank you so much. All right. Bye.
