Carl Rogers - Caso Gloria completo

oh oh Psychotherapy is such a personal and private process that it is a mystery to most people who have never gone through it the following series is a unique effort that allows us to sit in on what is ordinarily a very private therapeutic experience an actual patient was courageous enough and considerate enough to allow herself to be photographed while actually engaged in therapy with three different therapists thus we allowed the privilege of seeing and feeling what really transpires a film series like this in which three therapists distinguished by their different orientations share their therapeutic Endeavors

has never been made before we therefore wish to express our gratitude to Gloria the patient and to her therapists for allowing us to share in their therapeutic Adventures this series will be divided into three separate films in the first film we see Dr Carl roders founder of client centered therapy interviewing Gloria in film number two Dr Frederick pearls founder of gestal therapy is working with her and in film number three Dr Albert Ellis founder of rational emotive therapy is our therapist each therapist will first describe his system of therapy briefly he will then demonstrate his

work with Gloria and then he will comment briefly on his work now here's Dr Carl Rogers from my own years of therapeutic experience I've come to feel that if I can create the proper climate the proper relationship the proper conditions a process of therapeutic movement will almost inevitably occur in my climate might ask what is this climate what what are these conditions uh will they exist in the interview with the women I'm about to talk with whom I've never seen before let me try to describe very briefly what these conditions are as I see them

first of all one question is can I be real in the relationship this uh has come to have an increasing amount of importance to me over the years I feel that um genuiness is another way of describing the quality I would like to have uh I like the term congruence by which I mean that what I'm experiencing inside is present in my awareness and comes out through my communication in a sense when I have this quality I'm I'm all in one piece in the relationship um there's another word that describes it for me I feel

that in the relationship I would like to have a transparency I would be quite willing for my client to see all the way through me that there would be nothing nothing hidden and when I'm real in this fashion that I'm trying to describe them I know that uh my own feelings will will often bubble up into awareness and be expressed but be expressed in ways that won't impose themselves on my client and the second question I would have is will I find myself praising this person uh caring for this person I certainly don't want to

pretend a caring that I don't feel in fact if I dislike my client persistently I feel it's better that I should express it but I know that the process of therapy is much more likely to occur and constructive change is much more likely if I feel a real spontaneous prizing uh of this individual with whom I'm working prising of this person as a separate individual uh you can call that Quality Acceptance you can call it caring uh you can call it a non-possessive love if you wish I think any of those terms tend to describe

it I know that the relationship will prove more constructive if it's present then the third quality will I be able to understand the inner world of this individual from the from the inside can I will I be able to see it through her eyes will I be able to to uh be sufficiently sensitive to move around inside the world of her feelings so that I know what it feels like to be her so that I can sense not only the surface meanings but some of the meanings that lie somewhat underneath the surface I know that

if I can let myself uh sensitively and accurately enter into her world of experience then change in therapeutic movement are much more likely well suppose I am fortunate and that I do experience some of these attitudes in the relationship what then well then a variety of things are likely to happen both from my clinical experience and from our research investigations we find that if uh attitudes of the sort that I've described are present and quite a number of things will happen she'll explore some of her feelings and attitudes more deeply she's likely to discover some

hidden aspects of herself that she wasn't aware of previously feeling herself prized by me it's quite possible she'll come to prize herself more feeling that some of her meanings are understood by me then she can can more readily perhaps listen to herself listen to what's going on within her own experience listen to some of the meanings she hasn't been able to catch before and perhaps if she senses a realness in me uh she'll be able to be a little more real within herself I suspect there will be a change in the manner of her expression

at least this has been my experience in other instances is from being rather remote from her experiencing remote from what's going on within her uh it's possible that she'll move toward more immediacy of experiencing that uh she will be able to sense and express what's going on in her in the immediate moment from being disapproving of herself it's quite possible she will move toward uh a greater degree of acceptance of herself from somwhat of a fear of relating she may move toward being able to relate more directly and to encounter me more directly from construing

Life in somewhat uh rigid black and white patterns uh she may move toward more tentative ways of uh construing her experience and of seeing the meanings in it from uh a locus of evaluation which is outside of herself it's quite possible she will move toward recognizing a greater capacity within herself for making judgments and and drawing conclusions so those are the some of those are some of the changes that we have tended to find uh and uh I think that there are all of them changes that are characteristic of the process of therapy or therapeutic

movement if I have any success in creating the kind of conditions that I described initially then we may be able to see uh some of these changes in this client even though I know in advance that our contact is going to be very brief good morning hello you must be Gloria yes I am we had half an hour together and I really don't know what we'll be able to make of it but uh I hope we can make something of it i' be glad to know whatever concerns you well I'm right now I'm nervous but

I feel more comfortable the way you're talking in a low voice and I don't feel like you'll be so harsh on me but uh I I hear the trimmer in your [Music] voice uh well the main thing I um want to talk to you about and so I just nearly divorced and uh I had gone in therapy before and I felt comfortable when I left and all of a sudden now the biggest change is adjusting to my single life mhm mhm and one of the things that bothered me the most is especially men and having

them to the house and how it affects the children and mhm um the biggest thing I want the thing keeps coming to my mind I want to tell you about is I have a daughter nine who at one time I felt I had a lot of emotional problems I wish I could stop shaking and uh I'm little conscious of things affecting her I don't want her to get upset I don't want to shock her I want so bad to for her to accept me mhm and we're real open with each other especially about sex and

the other day she saw a girl was single but pregnant and she asked me all about can girls get pregnant if they're single and the conversation was fun and I wasn't unase at all with her until she asked me if I'd ever made love to a man since I left her daddy and I lied to her and ever since that it keeps coming up to my mind cuz I feel so guilty lying to her cuz I never lie and I want her to trust me and I want I almost want an answer from you I

want you to tell me if it will affect her wrong if I told her the truth or would and and it's his concern about her and the fact that you really aren that this open relationship that has existed between you now you feel is kind of yes I feel like I have to be on guard about that because I remember when I was a little girl when I first found out my mother father made love it was dirty and terrible and I didn't I didn't like her anymore for a while and I don't want to

lie to P either and I don't know I sure wish I could give you the answers to what you should tell her I was afraid you were going to say that cuz what you really want is a it I want to especially know if it would affect her if I was completely honest and open with her or if it would affect her because I lied I feel like it's bound to make a strin because I lied to her she'll suspect that or she will know something's not quite right side she'll distrust me yes and also

I thought would you would about when she gets a little older and she finds herself in touchy situations she probably wouldn't want to admit it to me cuz she thinks I'm so good and so sweet and yet I'm afraid she could think I'm really a a dle and I W so bad for it except me and I don't know how much it can take and really both Alternatives canc you but she might think you're too good or better than you really are yes and she might think that you're worse than you are not worse than

I am I don't know if she can accept me the way I am I think I paint a picture that I'm all sweet and motherly and I'm a little ashamed of my Shady F too mhm mhm I see it really cuts a little deeper if she really knew you would she could she accept you this is what I don't know yeah I don't know want to turn away from me I don't even know how I feel about it because there are times when I feel so guilty like when I have them run over I even

try to make a special setup so that if I were ever alone with them the children would never catch me on that sort of thing cuz I'm know lary about it and I also know I have these desires so it's quite clear it is only her problem or the relationship with her it's in you as well yeah I what can I accept myself as doing and yes you realize that you you set up Ser subes say to make sure that that you're not caught or something you realize that you are acting from guilt is that

yeah M I don't like the I would like to feel comfortable with whatever I do if I choose not to tell pamy the truth to feel comfortable that she can't handle it and I don't I want to be honest and yet I feel there are some areas that I don't even accept M if you can't accept them in yourself how could you possibly be comfortable in telling them to her right and yet as you say you do have these desires and you do have your feelings but but you don't feel good about them right all

right I I thought you're just going to sit there and let me St and I want more um I want you to help me get rid of my guilt feeling if I can get rid of my guilt feeling about lying or going to bed with a single man any of that just so I can feel more comfortable and I guess I'd like to say no I don't want to let you just Ste in your feelings but on the other hand I I also feel that this is the kind of very PR the thing that I

couldn't possibly answer for you but I ass sure is anything will try to help you work toward your own answer I don't know if it makes any sense to you but I me it oh I appreciate you saying that you feel my it but I don't know where to go I don't begin to know where to go I thought that I pretty well worked over most of my guilt and now that this is coming up I'm disappointed in myself I am I want I like it when I feel that no matter what I do even

if it's against my own morals or my upbringing that I can still feel good about me and know I don't like um there's a girl at work who sort of mothers me and she just she I think she thinks I'm all sweet and I'm sure don't want to show my more army devilish side with her I want to be sweet and it's so hard for me this all seems so new again and it's so disappointing yeah I get the disappointment but here a lot of these things you thought you'd worked through and now the guilt

and the feeling that only a part of you is acceptable to anybody else yeah that keeps coming out I guess I I do F the real deep puzzlement that you feel is to what the hell shall I do what can I do yes and you know what I can find after is that everything I start to do that I impulse it seems natural to to tell P or to go out on a day or something I'm comfortable until I think how I was affected as a child and the minute that comes up then I'm all

ha wire like uh I want to be a good mother so bad and I feel like I am a good mother but then there's those little exceptions like my guilts with working I want to work and it's so fun having extra money I like to work nice but minute I think I'm not being real good to the children or giving me enough time then I start feeling guilty again then that's when I it's a what do they call it a double bind that's just it feels like I want to do this and it feels right

but after all I'm not being a good mother and I want to be both I'm becoming more and more aware of what a perfectionist I am that's what it seems like I want to be so perfect either I want to become perfect in my stand or not have that need anymore or I guess I hear it a little differently but uh what you want is to seem perfect but it means it's a great matter of great importance to you to be a good mother and you want to seem to be be a good mother even

if some of your actual feelings differ from that does that yeah I feel like I'm saying that no that is what I feel really I want to approve of me always but my actions won't let me I want to approve of me I I think realize you all right let me i' like to understand that you s your actions are kind of outside of you you want to approve of you but what you do somehow won't let you approve of yourself right like I feel that I could approve of myself regarding for example my sex

life this is the big thing if I really fell in love with a man and I respected him and I adored him I don't think I'd feel so guilty going to bed with him and I don't think I'd have to make up any excuses to the children because they could see my natural caring form but when I have the physical desire and I say oh well why not and I want to anyway then I feel guilty afterwards I hate facing the kids I don't like looking at myself and I rarely enjoy it and this is

what I mean if the circumstances would be different I don't think I'd feel so guilty because i' feel right about it yeah I I guess I hear you saying if if what I was doing when I went to bed with a man was really genuine and full of love and respect and so on I didn't feel guilty in relation to Pam I wouldn't uh I really would be comfortable about the situ that's how I feel here and I know that sounds like I want a perfect situation but that is how I feel and in the

meantime I can't stop these desires I've tried that also I've tried saying okay I don't like myself when I do that so I won't do it anymore but then I read that to children I think why should they stop me from doing what I want and it's really not that bad but I guess I heard you saying too that do only the children that you don't like it as well when it really isn't I'm sure that's I know that's it probably even more so than I'm aware of but I only notice it so much when

I pick it up in the children then I can also notice it in myself somehow sometimes you kind of uh feel like blaming them for the feelings you have I mean why should they cut you off from a normal sex life about a sex life I could say not normal because there is something about me that says that's not very healthy to uh just go into sex because you feel physically attractive or something or a physical need so something about it tells me that's not quite right anyway but you feel really that at times you're

acting in ways that are not in accord with your own inner standards great great but then you were also saying a minute ago but you feel you can't help that uh I wish I could that's it and I can't now I feel like I can't control myself as well as I could have before from specific reason now I can't I just let go and I have there's too many things I do wrong that I have to feel guilty for and I sure don't like that I want you very much to give me a direct answer

and I'm going to ask it and I don't expect a direct answer but I want to know do you feel that to me the most important thing is to be open and honest and if I can be open and honest with my children do you feel that it could harm them if for example I could say to Pammy I was I felt bad lying to you pamy and I want to tell you the truth now and if I tell her the truth and she's shocked at me and she's upset that that could bother her more

I want to get rid of my guilt and that'll count me but I don't want to put them on her that's right do you feel that could concern I guess uh I'm sure this will sound bive to you but it seems to me that perhaps the person you're not being fully honest with is you no because I was very much struck by the fact that you were saying if I feel all right about what I've done that it's coming to bed with a man or what if I really feel all right about it then I

don't have any concern about what I would tell P or on my relationship with her right all right I hear what you're saying I then I want to work on I want to work on accepting me then I want to work on feeling all right about it and that makes sense that that'll come natural and and I don't have to worry about paning but when things do things so wrong for me and I have an Impulse to do them how can I accept that what you'd like to do is to feel more accepting towards yourself

when you do things that you feel are wrong is that right right I feel like I yeah I feel like you're going to say now why do you think they're wrong and U I have mixed feelings there too through therapy I'll say now look I know this is natural women feel it sure we don't talk about a lot socially but all women feel and it's very natural I've had sex for the last 11 years I'm of course going to want it but I still think it's wrong unless you're really truly in love a in and

my body doesn't seem to age and so I don't know how to accept it sounds like a triangle to me doesn't it you feel it I or therapist in general or other people say it's all right it's all right it's natural enough go ahead um and I guess you feel your body sort of lines up on that side of the picture but something in you says but I don't like it that way that not it's really right no well I have a hopess mind and these are all the things I sort of feel myself and

I feel the okay now what mhm they feel this is the conflict and it's just insoluble and therefore it's hopeless and here you look to me and I don't seem to give you any help and right I I really know you can't answer it for me and I have to figure it out myself but I want you to guide me or show me where to start or so it won't look so hopeless mhmh I know I can keep living with this conflict and I know eventually things would work out but I like feeling more comfortable

with the way I live name what is it you wish I would say to you I wish you would say to me to be honest and take the risk that pamm's going to accept me and I also have a feeling if I could really risk it with pamy of all people that I'd be able to see here's this little kid that can accept me and I'm really not that bad if she really knows what a demon I am and still loves me and accepts me it seems like it would help me to accept me more

like it's really not that bad I want you to say to go ahead and be honest but I don't want the responsibility that it would upset her that's where I don't want to take responsibility yeah you know very well what you'd like to do in the relationship you would like to be yourself and you'd like to have her know that you're not perfect and you do things that maybe even she wouldn't approve of and that you disapprove of to some degree yourself but that uh somehow she would love you and accept you as an imperfect

person yeah like I wonder if my mother had been more open with me maybe I wouldn't have had such a narrow attitude about sex if I would have thought that she could be you know pretty sexy and Orly and devilish too but I wouldn't look at her as being such a sweet mother that she could also be the other side but she didn't talk about that maybe that's where I got my picture I don't know but I want Pammy to see me as a full woman but also accept me MH you don't sound so uncertain

I don't what do you mean what I mean is you've been sitting there telling me just what you would like to do in that relationship with him I would but I don't quite take the risk of doing it unless mythity tells me that it's I guess one thing that uh I feel very keenly is it's an awfully risky thing to live you be taking a chance on your relationship with her and taking a chance and letting her know who you are really yeah but then if I don't take a chance if I feel Lov and

accepted by her I'm never going to feel good about it anyway M if if her love and acceptance of you is based on a false picture of you what the hell is the good of that is that that's what they me yeah but I also feel there's a lot of responsibility with being a mother but I don't I don't want to feel like I've caused any big traumas in the children I don't like all that responsibility I think that's it I don't like it feeling it could be my fault I guess that's what I meant

when I said life is risky it's uh to take the responsibility for being a person you would like to be with her is a hell of a responsibility it is a very frightening one all right then I want to work on I want to work on accepting me them I want to work on feeling all right about it and that makes sense but that'll come natural and then I don't have to worry about P but when things do seem so wrong for me and I have an Impulse to do them how can I accept that

what you'd like to do is to feel more accepting towards yourself when you do things that you feel are wrong is that right right feel like yeah I feel like you're going to say now why do you think they're wrong and U I have mixed feelings there too do therapy I'll say now look I know this is natural women feel it true we don't talk about a lot socially the all women feel and it's very natural I've had sex for the last 11 years I'm of course going to want it but I still think it's

wrong unless you're really truly in love with a man and my body doesn't seem to age so I don't know how to accept it sounds like a triangle to me doesn't it you feel it I or therapist in general or other people say it's all right that's all right it's natural enough go ahead um and I guess if you your body sort of lines up on that side of the picture but something in you says but I don't like it that way not unless it's really right well I have a hopess mind MH and these

are all the things I sort of feel myself and I feel okay now what mhm I feel this is the conflict and it's just insoluble and therefore it's hopeless and here you look to me and I don't seem to give you any help and right I I really know you can't answer for me and I have to figure it out myself but I want you to guide me or show me where to start or so it won't look so hopeless mhm MH I know I can keep living with this conflict and I know eventually things

would work out but I like feeling more comfortable with the way I live this what is it you wish I would say to you I wish you would say to me to be honest and take the risk that Pam's going to accept me and I also have a feeling if I could really risk it with Pammy of all people that I'd be able to see here's this little kid that can accept me and I'm really not that bad if she really knows what a demon I am and still loves me and accepts me it seems

like it would help me to accept me more like it's really not that bad I want you to say to go ahead and be honest but I don't want the responsibility that it would upset her see that's where want to take responsibility yeah you know very well what you'd like to do in the relationship you would like to be yourself and you'd like to have her know that you're not perfect and you do things that maybe even she wouldn't approve of and that you disapprove of to some degree yourself but that uh somehow she would

love you and accept you as an imperfect person yeah like I wonder if my mother had been more open with me maybe I would have had such a narrow attitude about sex if I would have thought that she could be you know pretty sexy and orinary and devilish too but I wouldn't look at her as being such a sweet mother that she could also be the other side but she didn't talk about that maybe that's where I got my picture I don't know but I want pamy to see me as a full woman but also

accept me MH you don't sound so uncertain I don't what do you mean what I mean is you've been sitting there telling me just what you would like to do in that relationship with him I would but I don't quite take the risk of doing it unless the authority tells me that it's I guess one thing that uh I feel very keenly is it's an awfully risky thing to live you be taking a chance on your relationship with her be taking a chance and letting him know who you are really yeah but then if I

don't take a chance if I still love and accepted by her I'm never going to feel good about it anyway if if her love and acceptance of you is based on a false picture of you what the hell is the good of that is that that's what I me yeah but I also feel there's a lot of responsibility with being a mother but I don't I don't want to feel like I've caused any big traumas in the children I don't like all that responsibility I think that's it I don't like it feeling it could be

my fault I guess that's what I meant when I said life is risky it's uh to take the responsibility for being a person you would like to be with her is a hell of a responsibility it is I believe frightening on and you know I look at it two ways I like to see myself as being so honest with the kids and really being proud of myself though that no matter what I told them or no matter how bad they might think I was I was honest and down deep it's going to be a much

more wholesome relationship and yet you know I get jealous of like when they're with your daddy I feel he's more fit he's not quite as real he's not quite as honest but nevertheless they see a sweet picture of their dad you know he's all goodness some light and I'm envious of that too I want them to see me just as sweet as they see him and yet I know he's not quite as real with him MH so it seems like I've got to swap the one for the other MH and I know this is really

what I want the most but uh I miss some of that Glory yeah and S if you I want them to have just as nice a picture of me as they have their dad and his is a little for me then maybe mine will have to be too I think that's putting a little too strong but that's close that is putting me so wish she can't have that need a picture of me if I were honest besides that I do feel I'm a little more Orly than their dad anyway so I'm likely to do more

things that they disapprove of s you really find it quite hard to believe that they would really love you if they knew you that's right you know that's exactly it before therapy I would have definitely chosen the other area I'm going to get respect to them no matter what even if I have to lie I see right now I know that's not true and I'm not positive they'll truly accept me something tells me they will I know they will but I'm not positive I'm want reassurance I keep learning these things we in kind of a

non's land of probably shifting from one point of view to them to another but boy you sure like somebody to say that's right you go ahead and do it yes that's why I get encouraged when I reading a book from somebody I respect and admire that this is the right thing no matter what Honesty will win out well then that keeps giving me confidence by gosh I'm right but it's so damn hard to really choose something on your own isn't it which makes me feel very immature I don't like this in me I wish I

were grown up enough or mature enough to make my decisions and stick by them but I need somebody to help me out somebody to push me so you can't of reproach yourself for that I guess and feel why if I was anybody if I was grown up I'd be mature enough to decide things like this for myself right and take more risks I wish I'd take more risks I wish that I could just go ahead and be this and say however the children grow up I've done my best I didn't have to constantly have this

conflict and I'd like later years to say no matter what you ask me kids at least I told you the truth you may not have like it but it's been the truth that's somehow I can admire I I disrespect people that lie I hate it so you see what a double bind I am in I hate myself if I'm bad but I also hate myself if I lie so it's accepting I want to become more accepting I guess judging from your tone of voice you sound as though you hate yourself more when you li than

you do in terms of things you disapprove of behavior I do because this has really bothered me this happened with pamy about a month ago and it keeps coming to my mind I don't know whether to go back and talk to her about it oh wait she may have even forgotten what she asked me but uh one days you haven't forgotten I no I haven't I like to at least be able to tell her that I remember lying and I'm sorry I lied and it's been driving me dugs because I did I do really feel

like now that's solved and I didn't even solve the thing but I feel relieved mhm mhm I uh I do feel like you've been feeling to me you're not giving me advice but I feel like you're saying you really want to you know what pattern you want to follow goria and go ahead and follow it I swe I feel backing up for you I guess the way I sense it is uh you've been telling me that you know what you want to do and yes I do believe in backing up people in H they want

to do it's just a little different slamp than the way it seems to you are you telling me one thing that concerns me is uh it's no damn good you're doing something that you haven't really chosen to do that's why I'm trying to help you find out what your own inner choices are but then there's also a conflict there because I'm not really positive what I want to do the lying part yes but I'm not positive what I want to do when I go against myself like when I bring a man to the house I'm

not sure I want to do that if I feel guilty afterwards I must not have really wanted to I'm interested that you say I'm just sure which words you use but you don't want it you don't like yourself or you don't agree with it when you do something against yourself mhm you know this is so different now this kind of thing that we're talking about now it isn't just knowing whether you want to do something or not if I want to go to work in the morning or I don't want to go to work that's

easy but when I find myself doing something I don't feel comfortable with I automatically say if you're not comfortable gr it's not right something's wrong all right now what I want to ask you is how can I know which is the strongest because I do it does that mean that's the strongest and yet if I disapprove that's just part of the thing that's got to go along with it see it sounds like you're I'm picking up a contradiction I'm not I'm not following sounds like you're feeling a contradiction in yourself too although you what I

heard you saying in part is uh the way you like it is when you feel really comfortable about what you're doing yes and I have at times when I've made a decision now that seems right that seems perfectly right no conflict but then there are times I do things that I feel uncomfortable with so that there is a conflict there MH it's not the same at all so what I'm saying is how do I really know when I'm following my true feelings if I have conflicts afterwards or guilt afterwards I see because in the moment

it may seem like your true feeling yesh like if I'm starting to do it okay MH mhh so that really is tough uh if you feel comfortable in the moment about it but then afterward don't feel at all comfortable which course Direction was really the one you should have followed you know the most outstanding thing I don't know if you're following me when I say about this conflict the one thing I know is I've wanted for example to leave my husband for quite a few years I never did it I kept thinking how nice it

would be or how scary it would be but I never did it and all of a sudden when I did it felt right I didn't feel mean toward him I just knew this is what I had to do that's when I know I'm following myself I'm following my feelings completely I had no conflict there so many happy things came from it but I still had no conflict that to me is when I'm I'm following my feelings and in everyday life the small little decisions the small little things to do don't come out there clear it

all so many conflicts come with is this natural although you're saying uh expect it is but but you're saying too that you know perfectly well a feeling within yourself that occurs when you're really doing something that's right for you I do I do perfectly well a feeling within yourself that occurs when you're really doing something that's right for you I do I do and I miss that feeling other times it's better way of clue to me MH you can really listen to yourself sometimes and realize oh this isn't the right feeling this is this isn't

the way I would feel if I was doing what I really wanted to do but yet many times I'll go on and do it anyway and say oh well I'm in a situation now I'll just remember next time I I mentioned this word a lot in therapy and and most therapists gr at me or giggle or something when I say Utopia but when I do follow a feeling and I feel this good feeling inside me that's sort of Utopia that's what I mean that's the way I like to feel whether it's a bad thing or

a good thing but I feel right about me sense that in those utopian moments you really feel kind of whole you feel all in one piece mhm yeah it gives me a coked up feeling when you say that because I don't get that as often as I'd like mhm I like that whole feeling that's real precious to me I expect none of us to get it as often as we like but I really do understand that M that really does touch you do well you know way else I just thinking I feel dumb say it

uh all of a sudden as I'm talking and thought see how nice I can talk to you and I want you to approve of me and I respect you but I that my father couldn't talk to me like you are I mean I'd like to say CH like you for my father I don't know why that came to me you look to me like a pretty nice daughter but you really do miss the fact that you couldn't be open with your own being yeah I could be open but I I want to blame it on

him I think I'm more open than he'd allow me he would never U listen to me talk like you are MH and U not disapprove and not laring you down it's yeah I thought of this the other day why do I always have to be so perfect I don't know why he always wanted me to be perfect I always had to be better and uh yeah this that you're just chying like hell to be the girl he wants you to be at the same time they delling true like I almost quoted writing him a letter

the other day and telling him I'm a waitress which I expect him to disapprove of I go out at night and I I almost quoted hitting him back like no how do you like me and yet I really want acceptance and love from him I mean I know he Lov so you slap at him and say this is what I am now see yeah you raised me how do you like it but you know what I think I want him to say I knew this was you all along for me and I really love you

MH I you really feel B you think there very little chance he'll say that no he won't he doesn't here I went back home to him about 2 years ago really wanting to let him know I loved him although I've been afraid of him he doesn't hear me he keeps saying things like honey you know I love you you know I've always loved you and he doesn't hear never really known you and loved you and this somehow is what brings the tears inside I don't know what it is you know when I talk about it

it feels more flip if I just sit still and minut it feels like a great big hurt down there instead I feel cheated mhm MH it's much it's much easier to uh be a little flip because then you don't feel that big lump inside of MH and again that's a hopeless situation I tried working on it and uh I feel something I have to accept my father just isn't the type of man I'd really like I'd like somebody more understanding and caring he cares but not in a way that we can cooperate or communicate you'll

note that I am permanently cheated that's why I like substitutes like I like talking to you and I like uh wom I can ECT doctors and I I keep sort of maybe underneath feeling like we're real close you know and it's sort of like a substitute father I don't feel it's pretending well you're not really my father no I meant about the real close business well see I sort of feel that's pretending too because I can't expect you to go very close to me you don't know me that well all I can do is what

I am feeling that is I feel Close to You In This Moment In Spite of feeling initially the artificiality of the situation and particularly the hot lights I very quickly became oblivious to the outside situation and I think that Gloria did too uh in many ways I'm glad that she kept uh pushing me for an answer to her very personal questions about her sex life and her relationship to her daughter I say I'm glad of this because as the relationship developed it became I think completely clear to her as well as to me that she

was seeking something a good deal deeper than that and incidentally I'd like to pay my tribute to her uh deep honesty and being willing to talk about herself so freely although every individual is entirely unique and in this respect I was definitely unprepared for and sometimes surprised by the material she brought up still in another sense this was very typical of of my experiences in therapy when I'm able really to let myself enter into a relationship and I feel that this was true in this instance then I find myself not only being increasingly moved by

being in touch with the inner world of my client but I find myself bringing out of my own inner experience statements which seem to have no connection with what's going on but which usually proved to be uh or Pro to have a very significant relationship to to what the client is experiencing I felt there were one or two incidents of this kind in this brief interview I was genuinely moved I probably showed it by the fact that she told me near the end of the contact that uh she saw me as the father she would

like to have my reply was also a thoroughly spontaneous one that she seemed to me like a pretty nice daughter I guess I feel that we're only playing with the real world of relationships when we talk about such an experience in terms of transference and counter transference uh I feel quite deeply about that I I want to say yes we can put this experience into some such uh highly intellectualized framework but when we do that it completely misses the point of the very immediate iow quality of the relationship at such moments I felt that uh

Gloria and I really encountered each other and that in some small but I believe lasting way we were each of us enriched by The Experience I'm saying these things almost immediately after the conclusion of the interview and as is characteristic of me there are not more than one or two statements or incidents which I recall from the interview I simply know that I was very much uh present in the relationship that I lived it in the moment of its occurrence and I realize that after a time I may begin to remember it too but at

the present time I really have uh a very non-specific memory of the whole interview I'll try to look at it though a little bit more from a intellectual rather than a strictly feeling point of view Gloria showed what I've come to feel are characteristic elements of therapeutic movement in the first part of the interview she was talking about her feelings and they were past feelings she was talking about aspects of her behavior and of herself as if she didn't quite own them she was looking outside herself for a center or locus of evaluation some source

of of authority she saw some of the things she was talking about in Fairly black and white fashion by the end of the interview uh she was experiencing her feelings in the immediate moment not only as evidenced by her tears but by her ability to express very directly and with immediacy her feelings toward me she was also much more aware of her ability to make her own judgments and and choices I guess uh put in terms that have become somewhat common place you could say that she moved from the there and then of her life

to the Here and Now of elements that she was cing in herself and feelings which she was experiencing in the moment in her relationship with me all in all I feel good about the interview I guess I feel good about myself in the interview and like Gloria I feel very real regret that the relationship cannot continue [Applause] [Music]